I rather like the idea of rewarding the racial niches that exist in D&D. Elves should be good wizards. Orcs should be good barbarians, etc. So, I think the idea of a favored class is good. I just don't much care for the implementation in 3E. I don't want to penalize anyone for playing against type. I would like to reward them for playing to type, though.
The only idea I've ever heard, besides the XP penalty for multiclassing, is to grant an extra skill point to characters for the levels which they take "in class". Has anyone tried this?
Anyone have a better idea?
I've never really liked the way favored classes are implemented. They don't make the race better at the class; they mean that a member of the race can easily pick up a few levels in the class while doing something else. Elves don't necessarily make the best wizards by the standard rules.
The idea of an extra skill point when taking the favored class actually seems like an elegant solution; it mirrors the human advantages of all favored classes/universal extra skill point. I may have to try this at some time.
In my own games, I usually simply ignore multiclassing penalties altogether. One thing I do is give nonhumans some starting equipment bonuses related to their favored class, as "that's just what they grew up with." A nice perk without being too unbalancing.
An extra skill point is a simple and interesting way of simulating this.
Allowing alternative/replacement class levels is another way I like. It can serve racial or regional stereotypes well, too.
Chacal
So the only advantage a human wizard would have over an elven wizard is one bonus feat.
Does one bonus feat equal all the racial abilities of an elf?
Quote from: SobekElves should be good wizards.
Personally I think they should be druids and rangers, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
I have two ideas.
1: Use the substitution levels from the Races of... books. Most classes have pretty advantageous sub-levels for their favored classes.
2. Give them some sort of bonus for sticking with their favored class. I believe the Conan RPG gives a bonus feat at 5th, 10th and 15th level in that class.
Then again, you could take the approach championied by Keith "Eberron" Baker, which is that "favored class" doesn't mean "the class most of them focus on", but rather "the class most of them at least dabble in". So even great elven warriors know a few spells, great dwarven wizards know how to
fight, and great halfling barbarians know how to sneak.
The only incentive to taking a "Favored Class" is for multiclassing. I don't penalize for multiclassing. I like the d20 Modern approach of encouraging it if that's what a player wants. I have no problem with a wizard player taking a level of fighter just to get the weapons training.
That having been said, to maintain that delicate game balance that D&D3.5 has, if you're wanting to provide incentive to someone for taking a specific class you have to give that same incentive to Humans for whatever class they select at first level. It's only fair.
Quote from: TrainzSo the only advantage a human wizard would have over an elven wizard is one bonus feat.
Does one bonus feat equal all the racial abilities of an elf?
You seem to be forgetting that humans have a favoured class, too. They just get to choose it.
Either that or you're just being a contrary asshat. :p
I think the racial substitution levels idea sounds interesting. The only exposure I've had to them is with some halfling barbarian RSL's in Dragon (actually, come to think of it, they had something for some elven class, too), but the idea does look neat in principle.
Quote from: CyberzombieYou seem to be forgetting that humans have a favoured class, too. They just get to choose it.
They don't strickly choose it just happens to be whichever class is highest. If you gave a bonus skill point to their highest class, and let them choose when they are even that would be okay I suppose.
Also willpax original comment about the extra skill point.
QuoteThe idea of an extra skill point when taking the favored class actually seems like an elegant solution; it mirrors the human advantages of all favored classes/universal extra skill point. I may have to try this at some time.
Sort of implied humans already had the advantage, and so wouldn't get it on top of the bonus skill point they already get. So I don't think Trainz had forgot or was being "a contrary asshat".
Quote from: BagpussThey don't strickly choose it just happens to be whichever class is highest. If you gave a bonus skill point to their highest class, and let them choose when they are even that would be okay I suppose.
I'd personally have them choose a class that it applies to. The "whichever is highest" thing doesn't make much sense in the standard rules, so it really wouldn't make much sense in this context.
Quote from: BagpussSort of implied humans already had the advantage, and so wouldn't get it on top of the bonus skill point they already get. So I don't think Trainz had forgot or was being "a contrary asshat".
Well that would be a pretty fucking dumb way to do things. :p If that was what Willpax meant, then I guess Trainz had a good reason to be snarky there!
I lean towards ignoring favored class in most games. I don't see it as adding anything really. Of course I mostly use the AE rules for multiclassing and fractional save and BAB advancement, so YMMV.
Fractional saves and BAB are the shit, mang! I never munchkinize without 'em. When you're taking 10 classes in 12 levels, those fractions add up fast! :)
Yeah, I'm not going to win any munchkinizing contests around here. I'm an English major, after all. :p
Maybe I misunderstand things, but I do think that the bonus skill point and bonus feat at first level are pretty big because the player gets to choose. What the other races lose out on is flexibility, and I think that skill points are such a constraint almost across the board that I find that to be a big, big bonus.
Having a demihuman class get a bonus skill point only for one class is great if you plan on taking that class; the racial bonuses are great if you happen to be in situations where they apply. The human bonuses help no matter what concept you are pursuing; that flexibility is worth something.
So, I suppose the best test would be: if a rule like this were in place, would anyone play a non-elven wizard?
Quote from: CyberzombieI think the racial substitution levels idea sounds interesting. The only exposure I've had to them is with some halfling barbarian RSL's in Dragon (actually, come to think of it, they had something for some elven class, too), but the idea does look neat in principle.
Two examples.
Elven WizardLevel 1 - Generalist Wizardry: The character starts out with one more 1st-level spell in his spellbook. He gains one more spell at each level, and can prepare one more spell of the highest level he can cast. This replaces the ability to specialize.
Level 3 - Natural Link: Double the familiar bonus (e.g. +6 hp instead of +3 hp for a toad) as long as it is within arm's reach. Replaces the familiar's ability to deliver touch spells and speak with animals.
Level 5 - Bonus feat: Get a bow-related feat instead of a metamagic/item creation feat.
Dwarven FighterGeneral: at any level where the character takes a substitution level, he rolls 1d12 for hp and treats Knowledge (dungeoneering) as a class skill.
Level 1 - Axe focus: Gain weapon focus with hand axe, battleaxe, greataxe, dwarven waraxe, throwing axe, and the axe part of an urgrosh. Replaces the standard fighter bonus feat.
Level 2 - Racial foes: +2 damage vs. orcs, goblinoids, and giants. Replaces the fighter bonus feat.
Level 8 - Heavy armor expertise: +1 AC when wearing heavy armor. Replaces the fighter bonus feat
In the Races series, each race gets substitution levels for three classes: their favored class, another stereotypical class, and an oddball class. For example, dwarves have substitution levels for fighter (favored), cleric (stereotype), and sorcerer (oddball).
Quote from: DackeTwo examples.
Thanks. :) Interesting ideas. Not interesting enough for me to buy the books, but very interesting.
Quote from: CyberzombieYou seem to be forgetting that humans have a favoured class, too. They just get to choose it.
True.dat I forgot for a moment.
QuoteEither that or you're just being a contrary asshat.
I am being
something, that's for sure. :p
Quote from: CyberzombieThanks. :) Interesting ideas. Not interesting enough for me to buy the books, but very interesting.
I'm ambivalent about having bought those books. They do have cool stuff like the racial substitution levels, and I like the Goliath race in Races of Stone. Plus, they have statblocks for "generic" or "typical" character types for each race, and they have some interesting Prestige Classes with examples of each (which means even more nifty statblocks to yoink). Beyond that, though, I have to say there isn't much in those books that interest me. This is especially true for the write-up of halflings, which perpetuates the whole "kenderized" version of halflings 3e came up with.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI'm ambivalent about having bought those books. They do have cool stuff like the racial substitution levels, and I like the Goliath race in Races of Stone. Plus, they have statblocks for "generic" or "typical" character types for each race, and they have some interesting Prestige Classes with examples of each (which means even more nifty statblocks to yoink). Beyond that, though, I have to say there isn't much in those books that interest me. This is especially true for the write-up of halflings, which perpetuates the whole "kenderized" version of halflings 3e came up with.
If I had paid for my PDFs of those books I would have been very, very upset. As it is I enjoy them for the 20-30 pages of useful material in each.
On the subject of halflings: Dark Sun or Eberron-style. No other variants need apply.
Quote from: Vermicious KnidOn the subject of halflings: Dark Sun or Eberron-style. No other variants need apply.
Sorry I prefer the Birthright ones.
Quote from: DackeDwarven Fighter
General: at any level where the character takes a substitution level, he rolls 1d12 for hp
This may be the specific rule that turned me sour on substitution levels. Don't fuck with the hit die. Also, substitution levels just take me back to the old "elf is a class" days of basic D&D, which is something I never want to deal with again. Many things, like the dwarven Heavy Armor Specialization would be as well, or better, served as a feat with a racial prereq.
Quote from: BagpussSorry I prefer the Birthright ones.
I know nothing about Birthright. What's up with the little guys?
Quote from: SobekMany things, like the dwarven Heavy Armor Specialization would be as well, or better, served as a feat with a racial prereq.
I see substitution levels as a codification of the thing in the DMG where it says "It's OK to modify classes a bit to account for differences in taste and special background." Now, you may have a point about the fighter substitution levels in particular (since they're usually traded for a feat, because the fighter doesn't have much else to trade in), but in other cases the extra ability is traded in for things like a sneak attack die, a spell, or something along those lines.
Quote from: SobekI know nothing about Birthright. What's up with the little guys?
They come from a different plane than the other races which has now been corrupted and taken over by undead. They have the ability to step back and forth between the 2 planes, if they want to risk possibly running into some of the life-challenged, which makes them absolutely superb rogues and rangers IMO.
One way of doing favoured class could be to do away with multi classing penalties, but give each character a bunus level in their favoured class. This way, a 4th level Elven Mage would have Fireball, while a 3rd level Dwarven Fighter would have weapon specialization. A Halfling Sorcerer would have some sneak attack while an Kobold Rogue would have some spells.
I'm not sure of the exact way this would be best implemented, but it might be something like this they have i Eberron.
Quote from: bondetampI'm not sure of the exact way this would be best implemented, but it might be something like this they have i Eberron.
Eberron doesn't have any special rules for multiclassing (well, except for two feats that allow monks and paladins to multiclass back and forth). The "all elves dabble in wizardry" thing is more Keith Baker's way of interpreting the way the favored class rule works in D&D.
Quote from: SigmundThey come from a different plane than the other races which has now been corrupted and taken over by undead. They have the ability to step back and forth between the 2 planes, if they want to risk possibly running into some of the life-challenged, which makes them absolutely superb rogues and rangers IMO.
That is pretty cool, I must admit. It doesn't stink of Kender
or Tolkien. I approve.
Quote from: Vermicious KnidThat is pretty cool, I must admit. It doesn't stink of Kender or Tolkien. I approve.
Ditto. That is the coolest concept for pipsqueaks I've ever seen. They actually have flavor.
Quote from: DackeI see substitution levels as a codification of the thing in the DMG where it says "It's OK to modify classes a bit to account for differences in taste and special background."
My problem isn't with twiddling the definition of the class. I do that all the time. It's with making what serves best as a universal mechanic to be customized.
It's a very, very fine line, really. I wouldn't mind something like the Loremaster's "Secret" (or whatever) ability, where the class has a list of things from which they may choose (Wizard's gift: choose a familiar or Generalist wizard (elf-only)). I wouldn't even mind having some be race-specific. I just don't like saying the whole level is swapped out.
Thinking about it, it's really a nit. Kinda like I don't mind the idea of an average save represented as (1 + 2/5 * level), but I really hate the "just use the average of the good and bad saves" approach. The end result is pretty similar. The mindset and approach behind it is different -- in the case of saves, I think putting a formula to a lot of the numbers was one of the best improvements in 3E.