I am sure this will work for some people. I prefer to play in person.
https://youtu.be/S8NoG-w1RbI
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:15:06 PM
I am sure this will work for some people. I prefer to play in person.
https://youtu.be/S8NoG-w1RbI
I'll stick with Foundry + Dungeon Alchemist.
The 3D looks nice in isolation, but looks like it'd be a pain to actually move things around in it. Also, you could already see the slight lagging in movement so the graphic requirements are already brushing up on the limits of whatever laptops they were using).
Likewise, if you think models that detailed just get generated instantly by magic... I look forward to seeing people's sticker shock at the cost of the token and map assets. I expect a LOT of "Vancouver Locations and Casting" as GMs reuse as many assets as possible to stretch their budgets.
Lastly, Foundry can be used to play more than D&D 6e.
In short, I see nothing in the Alpha demonstration that is either significantly better in performance or a must have feature than what Foundry can deliver
(animated lighting, rain/snow effects, smooth fog of war with functioning doors, scrolling map layers (for chase scenes), layers that go transparent when you move under them (i.e. you see the roof of the house until you move inside it), stairs/teleporters that can move you to different locations/maps, all manner of measuring tools, easy importing from Dungeon Alchemist, a custom system builder along with a number of already built systems, etc.).
And this presumes the long established trend of D&D tripping over its shoelaces on its digital tools shortly before edition launch has been successfully overcome. I would not bet against that prospect either.
Pasty white tech nerd for competency, surrounded by box tickers for optics.
(https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?attachments/perfection-gif.11015069/)
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 03, 2023, 02:56:08 PM
Pasty white tech nerd for competency, surrounded by box tickers for optics.
(https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?attachments/perfection-gif.11015069/)
It's Wizards of the coast. What do you expect?
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 03:14:40 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 03, 2023, 02:56:08 PM
Pasty white tech nerd for competency, surrounded by box tickers for optics.
(https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?attachments/perfection-gif.11015069/)
It's Wizards of the coast. What do you expect?
Exactly what they did, that's why it's perfection.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 03, 2023, 03:19:20 PM
Exactly what they did, that's why it's perfection.
What a better way to say we hate white people then to have a white guy as a minority in the group and people of other colors and religions as the players.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:15:06 PM
I am sure this will work for some people. I prefer to play in person.
This looks like a completely different hobby.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 03, 2023, 03:31:40 PM
This looks like a completely different hobby.
Yep I agree. And I think its stupid that they are sitting at the same table playing on computers instead of, oh I dont know using character sheets and dice
It looks pretty. But everything they showed was basically a battle mat and there seemed to be no calculations for line of sight or other visibility in play. One of the things I like for VTTs is the handling of light and vision so you can easily tell exactly what a given thing can see from where they are, and the player themselves cannot see a thing if it's outside of their character's view, in the darkness, etc. And like Chris mentioned, Foundry is good for dozens of systems and not just D&D.
Thankfully I give zero fucks about D&D 5+, so not using this thing will not hamper my gaming in the least.
Well fuck me, I've been extricating props from my games because they're fussy, they get in the way, and they stifle the imagination, and here we have a set up that is 90% props.
You can't sell imagination, so I see why someone would make this ($$$).
Also, who the hell wants to gather around in person to stare at their individual screens? I do that for work and now I gotta do it for fun? No thanks.
.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 03:30:46 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 03, 2023, 03:19:20 PM
Exactly what they did, that's why it's perfection.
What a better way to say we hate white people then to have a white guy as a minority in the group and people of other colors and religions as the players.
Them: "OMG, why is this full of white guys? We need to show a player base that represents modern America!"
Us: "Modern America is 50% Asian and 25% black?"
Them: "OMG! I can't believe you make everything about race!"
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 03, 2023, 03:48:42 PM
Them: "OMG, why is this full of white guys? We need to show a player base that represents modern America!"
Us: "Modern America is 50% Asian and 25% black?"
Them: "OMG! I can't believe you make everything about race!"
Yep. When they are presented with facts they shift the goalposts.
It's not even worth arguing with those people because they are so dumb.
Dear lord, what is the point. It looks like a business meeting with all of the laptops out around the table. No way. Never.
I am glad they gave us that dude's pronouns. I would have been lost.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 03, 2023, 02:56:08 PM
Pasty white tech nerd for competency, surrounded by box tickers for optics.
(https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?attachments/perfection-gif.11015069/)
FFS "post-modern" nu-DnD has become a self-replicating meme of eternal shite.....just when you think the cringe cannot reach a more epic level. ::)
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:15:06 PM
I am sure this will work for some people. I prefer to play in person.
https://youtu.be/S8NoG-w1RbI
That's not D&D. That is WoW.
Extra Hard Pass on that bullshit.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 03, 2023, 05:53:33 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:15:06 PM
I am sure this will work for some people. I prefer to play in person.
https://youtu.be/S8NoG-w1RbI
That's not D&D. That is WoW.
Extra Hard Pass on that bullshit.
Greetings!
Yeah, you KNOW that's right, Jeff!
I can remember hanging out with some friends, we would have drinks, be smoking cigars, while playing WoW on our laptops around a big table. Fun times, but that isn't D&D.
Just like the BS presented in the video isn't D&D. Fuck that!
On a technical or thematic note, there is so much wrong with everything going on here. Everyone's attention is not on the DM, or even each other. Everyone is glued to their fucking laptop screens! AARRGGHHH! No real miniatures, no actual dice rolling, no paper character sheets, no actual note taking!
No DM making weird growling noises, no players screaming. WTF, you know?
This whole BS set up there seems so *clinical*, artificial, and sterile. Like people jerking themselves at a meeting room while at work.
Definitely a hard pass. Fuck them and their stupid game. It certainly isn't D&D!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 03, 2023, 05:53:33 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:15:06 PM
I am sure this will work for some people. I prefer to play in person.
https://youtu.be/S8NoG-w1RbI
That's not D&D. That is WoW.
Extra Hard Pass on that bullshit.
If it's WoW it's a shittier version of it, just like it being a shittier version of TTRPGs.
But like I said, they will probably make bank, lots of videogames prove that an idiot and their money will soon part ways. It will be filled with microtransactions up the wazoo plus your monthly fee (as a player or GM) to be able to what? Play online?
VTTs work better for that.
Play in person? I don't need a VTT for that.
But the animations! Yeah, for much less than the cost of this shit I can buy TTS and play with my friends, And there's no monthly fee or microtransactions.
Hilariously WotC seems to be a year late to the party even in the superficial 3D spectacle arena.
I agree with almost everything said, but what I am therefore curious about is what Hasbro/WOTC is thinking. Are they envisioning the current boom in D&D as their chance to create a 2020's World of Warcraft titan, with a huge subscription base, etc., and the fact it is a "new edition" of the venerable tabletop game is just incidental? Or, do they truly believe that an online video game is the future of tabletop roleplaying and they are merely trying to capture this inevitable shift from pen-and-paper to computer? (ie, that in five years, almost no one will be playing with books and dice.)
I would just love to know what they really believe they are doing here.
I do think ttrpgs aren't taking advantage of how tablets make reading much faster. For example, Chaosium still redundantly repeats their rules with minor variations for each campaign setting. When they could save space by releasing rules and campaign settings separately.
But I feel VTT just exacerbates the existing problems with limiting groups' creativity. Your brain and a digital notepad is all the VTT you need. Unless you're playing Neverwinter Nights 3 and making modules for it, then there's no point. VTT is just an inferior tabletop experience. You can already play with others via chat and shared digital notepads.
There's nothing remotely WoW about any of that, outside of there being 3D models involved. And generally speaking people don't all come to Timmy's house to play on a VTT on a laptop, it's for remote play. In my case I'm in games with a bunch of people in different countries, so it's flatly impossible to play in person and we use software to handle the gaming. While it is possible to all run to one person's house to all then log onto the Internet and load up their online game, I wouldn't expect that to actually occur for real people. They just did it that way for their demo so they could catch all the excitement those not-paid people were so genuinely having at the riveting gameplay.
Would I pay WotC for this to play in person on laptops? Fuck no. Even if I wanted to play D&D 6 in the first place, if I was playing locally with people I'd just play with normal minis on a table. Would I pay them to play remotely with people? Well, again, I have no desire to play new D&D, but if I did it would hinge on the cost and availability of assets. There's no point to having a 3D tabletop with minis and stuff if they don't have minis for half the monsters you're trying to use, or maps made for the scenes you want to play on, or if they want you to shell out $50 for the Extreme Beholders Asset Pack or $30/month for some subscription.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2023, 07:35:32 PM
I do think ttrpgs aren't taking advantage of how tablets make reading much faster. For example, Chaosium still redundantly repeats their rules with minor variations for each campaign setting. When they could save space by releasing rules and campaign settings separately.
But I feel VTT just exacerbates the existing problems with limiting groups' creativity. Your brain and a digital notepad is all the VTT you need. Unless you're playing Neverwinter Nights 3 and making modules for it, then there's no point. VTT is just an inferior tabletop experience. You can already play with others via chat and shared digital notepads.
VTT isn't an inferior tabletop experience, it's a different way of playing, could we play online using ONLY theater of the mind? YES, but not all people like that style, if you can't play in person (my group is in 3 different countries) then playing online is the way, if you like playing with miniatures then a VTT is the way.
In my group we do both, sometimes it's theater of the mind others it's maps and tokens, it all depends on the GM and WHAT we're doing, personally for combat I much rather use maps and minis/tokens, but for everything else I'm fine with theater of the mind. Then there's those times we went left instead of right and the GM rolled a random encounter, then he uses the VTT drawing capabilities like if it was paper and scribbles a map on it.
Now, D&Done isn't for me, because I don't need the animations and because I don't like being the paypig of ANYONE, IF MapTool (free and opensource VTT) was easier to use I would be using that and pushing for my GM to switch to it and save some money, if THEY came out with a 3D version I would still stay in the 2D one.
I mean why use a chat? You could play by snailmail! It's even more analog! or find a happy medium and play by IRCC.
Quote from: Valatar on April 03, 2023, 10:13:55 PM
There's nothing remotely WoW about any of that, outside of there being 3D models involved. And generally speaking people don't all come to Timmy's house to play on a VTT on a laptop, it's for remote play. In my case I'm in games with a bunch of people in different countries, so it's flatly impossible to play in person and we use software to handle the gaming. While it is possible to all run to one person's house to all then log onto the Internet and load up their online game, I wouldn't expect that to actually occur for real people. They just did it that way for their demo so they could catch all the excitement those not-paid people were so genuinely having at the riveting gameplay.
Would I pay WotC for this to play in person on laptops? Fuck no. Even if I wanted to play D&D 6 in the first place, if I was playing locally with people I'd just play with normal minis on a table. Would I pay them to play remotely with people? Well, again, I have no desire to play new D&D, but if I did it would hinge on the cost and availability of assets. There's no point to having a 3D tabletop with minis and stuff if they don't have minis for half the monsters you're trying to use, or maps made for the scenes you want to play on, or if they want you to shell out $50 for the Extreme Beholders Asset Pack or $30/month for some subscription.
IF it was a one time payment (even if the players had to pay too) and you could use it to play other games... Then I might think about it, but I don't need the animations, furthermore It's running on their servers, wanna bet it will lag like nobody's business when it launches (if it has demand)?
On the other hand, if it's not a huge hit it will be closed, because running those servers costs money, so all the money you paid is now lost.
Or they could (and will) start policing your activity outside of their platform and ban you for being a notzee, no refunds, sorry.
Add to that the microtransactions (because the brand is undermonetized after all), yeah, no thanks, that'll be a hard pass from me.
I have minis, paper, dice and rulebooks. I don't need any of this shit.
Even if I wanted to play online, I'd just use Roll20.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 03, 2023, 11:55:04 PM
I have minis, paper, dice and rulebooks. I don't need any of this shit.
Even if I wanted to play online, I'd just use Roll20.
This guy gets it.
For a video that is supposed to be a demonstration of what's coming, it spends an awful lot of time focusing on the faces of the players.
My Sword & Caravan campaign is an online campaign. We don't need a virtual tabletop. We just meet up on video, everyone rolls their own dice because we're grownups. That's it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 03, 2023, 11:29:48 PM
VTT isn't an inferior tabletop experience, it's a different way of playing, could we play online using ONLY theater of the mind? YES, but not all people like that style, if you can't play in person (my group is in 3 different countries) then playing online is the way, if you like playing with miniatures then a VTT is the way.
The group I VTT with is spread from Boston to China and spots in between. One them also sits at a particular place on the spectrum where theatre of the mind visualization is almost impossible for them and they need visual representations (they don't have to be good... but they need to be present) to even be able to function in any sort of combat encounter.
It's one of the better groups I've played with over the decades and it wouldn't even be possible if not for Discord (for voice chat) + Foundry (for visuals).
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 03, 2023, 05:53:33 PM
That's not D&D. That is WoW.
Extra Hard Pass on that bullshit.
SO True. If I wanted to play WOW I would play WOW.
I don't. I play RPGS.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 03, 2023, 07:08:47 PM
Hilariously WotC seems to be a year late to the party even in the superficial 3D spectacle arena.
Granted I dont want to play online but if I did, I would go this route. This is so much better than what WOTC is presenting.
I have zero interest in this. Hard pass.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 04, 2023, 04:30:24 AM
My Sword & Caravan campaign is an online campaign. We don't need a virtual tabletop. We just meet up on video, everyone rolls their own dice because we're grownups. That's it.
I'm surprised. You always seemed like someone resistant to playing online. What changed?
I wonder if WOTC is going to pull support from the other VTT's out there?
Sure, people can create their own homebrew modules that aren't official but it wouldn't surprise me if WOTC was petty enough to do that to force people to use their shitty VTT
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 03, 2023, 05:53:33 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:15:06 PM
I am sure this will work for some people. I prefer to play in person.
https://youtu.be/S8NoG-w1RbI
That's not D&D. That is WoW.
Extra Hard Pass on that bullshit.
It's worse than WOW. It's WOW with terrible lag becuase people can't make up their minds what to do every round.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 04, 2023, 09:40:59 AM
It's worse than WOW. It's WOW with terrible lag because people can't make up their minds what to do every round.
Thee worst part of that video is those were not family members or friends, they had to be actors because they just didnt even act like normal people do.
Hopefully WOTC didn't pay them much.
I'm laughing my ass off - apparently the VTT demo was on "very high end machine" (I don't know the specs but attendees at the Creator Summit said they were Alienware machines). When the attendees started asking questions about what will the minimum specs required be... the fuckheads at WotC said "Oh... we didn't realize you'd be interested in that?"
They didn't even know what those specs would be - and effectively as of now, yeah you need a "high-end" machine to even run this piece of shit.
D&D aside... (no this isn't D&D) WotC is entering a realm they *have* no idea how to handle. They're producing a videogame and are pretending it's just an "app" to supplement their TTRPG. At least that's how its being sold. But the reality is this is an entirely different industry which they have no real experience in.
BTW - the "Creator Summit" as I've heard about it, was a disaster. So the people they expected to shill their dogshit were there to fight them. Well it'll be fun watching WotC go down on this.
But Chris Cocks totally plays D&D and has for decades, guys. This is his baby, and he claims to be a huge D&D nerd, so obviously that must mean he's got his finger on the pulse of what D&D players truly want: a shitty copy of software that is already available from other companies that apparently has far too much happening on the back end to run on the same fairly decent machines the other software can run on.
Quote from: tenbones on April 04, 2023, 10:13:23 AM
I'm laughing my ass off - apparently the VTT demo was on "very high end machine" (I don't know the specs but attendees at the Creator Summit said they were Alienware machines). When the attendees started asking questions about what will the minimum specs required be... the fuckheads at WotC said "Oh... we didn't realize you'd be interested in that?"
They didn't even know what those specs would be - and effectively as of now, yeah you need a "high-end" machine to even run this piece of shit.
Agreed. Not knowing the basic requirements for their VTT is a very rookie move and makes them look stupid.
Quote from: tenbones on April 04, 2023, 10:13:23 AMD&D aside... (no this isn't D&D) WotC is entering a realm they *have* no idea how to handle. They're producing a videogame and are pretending it's just an "app" to supplement their TTRPG. At least that's how its being sold. But the reality is this is an entirely different industry which they have no real experience in.
Didnt they try a VTT before and it crashed and burned?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 03, 2023, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2023, 07:35:32 PM
I do think ttrpgs aren't taking advantage of how tablets make reading much faster. For example, Chaosium still redundantly repeats their rules with minor variations for each campaign setting. When they could save space by releasing rules and campaign settings separately.
But I feel VTT just exacerbates the existing problems with limiting groups' creativity. Your brain and a digital notepad is all the VTT you need. Unless you're playing Neverwinter Nights 3 and making modules for it, then there's no point. VTT is just an inferior tabletop experience. You can already play with others via chat and shared digital notepads.
VTT isn't an inferior tabletop experience, it's a different way of playing, could we play online using ONLY theater of the mind? YES, but not all people like that style, if you can't play in person (my group is in 3 different countries) then playing online is the way, if you like playing with miniatures then a VTT is the way.
In my group we do both, sometimes it's theater of the mind others it's maps and tokens, it all depends on the GM and WHAT we're doing, personally for combat I much rather use maps and minis/tokens, but for everything else I'm fine with theater of the mind. Then there's those times we went left instead of right and the GM rolled a random encounter, then he uses the VTT drawing capabilities like if it was paper and scribbles a map on it.
Now, D&Done isn't for me, because I don't need the animations and because I don't like being the paypig of ANYONE, IF MapTool (free and opensource VTT) was easier to use I would be using that and pushing for my GM to switch to it and save some money, if THEY came out with a 3D version I would still stay in the 2D one.
I mean why use a chat? You could play by snailmail! It's even more analog! or find a happy medium and play by IRCC.
I can understand apps that make bookkeeping easier, provide notepads that better suit the chaotic nature of human thought, provide virtual grids that track PCs and NPCs in combat... but this is a blatant microtransaction scheme.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 10:43:32 AM
Didnt they try a VTT before and it crashed and burned?
The 4E tools that got released were the only completed parts of what was supposed to be a fully integrated virtual tabletop. There's a whole mess involving the lead designer killing themselves and, depending on the story you believe, either destroyed all the code and its backups before offing himself or (slightly more likely) it was all vaporware they were unable to deliver on and the suicide gave them a story of woe to tell (instead of rank incompetence).
Anyway, the 4E tools we got were thrown together in about a month and the whole digital side basically collapsed before Essentials even released (the original builder could be hacked to get the Dark Sun material they had in the database but hadn't turned on at the point they killed the offline version and others created work arounds to update it with the later material).
So, yes, this just feels like 4Ev2.0 all over again.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2023, 08:17:43 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 03, 2023, 11:29:48 PM
VTT isn't an inferior tabletop experience, it's a different way of playing, could we play online using ONLY theater of the mind? YES, but not all people like that style, if you can't play in person (my group is in 3 different countries) then playing online is the way, if you like playing with miniatures then a VTT is the way.
The group I VTT with is spread from Boston to China and spots in between. One them also sits at a particular place on the spectrum where theatre of the mind visualization is almost impossible for them and they need visual representations (they don't have to be good... but they need to be present) to even be able to function in any sort of combat encounter.
It's one of the better groups I've played with over the decades and it wouldn't even be possible if not for Discord (for voice chat) + Foundry (for visuals).
Well, your friend (and I) aren't grownups according to Pundit...
Granted I could work combat in theater of the mind but I don't like it and it's more work for me to be able to work it, so, given that visual representation is possible my DM provides because he isn't a fucktard.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2023, 11:05:46 AM
The 4E tools that got released were the only completed parts of what was supposed to be a fully integrated virtual tabletop. There's a whole mess involving the lead designer killing themselves and, depending on the story you believe, either destroyed all the code and its backups before offing himself or (slightly more likely) it was all vaporware they were unable to deliver on and the suicide gave them a story of woe to tell (instead of rank incompetence).
Anyway, the 4E tools we got were thrown together in about a month and the whole digital side basically collapsed before Essentials even released (the original builder could be hacked to get the Dark Sun material they had in the database but hadn't turned on at the point they killed the offline version and others created work arounds to update it with the later material).
So, yes, this just feels like 4Ev2.0 all over again.
Wow, I knew there was something going on and it failed but I didnt know all of that.
Thanks for the full story.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 11:51:45 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2023, 11:05:46 AM
The 4E tools that got released were the only completed parts of what was supposed to be a fully integrated virtual tabletop. There's a whole mess involving the lead designer killing themselves and, depending on the story you believe, either destroyed all the code and its backups before offing himself or (slightly more likely) it was all vaporware they were unable to deliver on and the suicide gave them a story of woe to tell (instead of rank incompetence).
Anyway, the 4E tools we got were thrown together in about a month and the whole digital side basically collapsed before Essentials even released (the original builder could be hacked to get the Dark Sun material they had in the database but hadn't turned on at the point they killed the offline version and others created work arounds to update it with the later material).
So, yes, this just feels like 4Ev2.0 all over again.
Wow, I knew there was something going on and it failed but I didnt know all of that.
Thanks for the full story.
He didn't mention the lead designer also murdered his estranged wife.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 11:30:54 AMWell, your friend (and I) aren't grownups according to Pundit...
Being charitable to him, I meant like "I don't need a public display of rolled dice because I trust my players with the physical dice they roll on their tables".
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 04, 2023, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 11:30:54 AMWell, your friend (and I) aren't grownups according to Pundit...
Being charitable to him, I meant like "I don't need a public display of rolled dice because I trust my players with the physical dice they roll on their tables".
He meant what he said.
You're aware that you can totally use a VTT and still roll your real dice? You don't have to use their rolling app. I know because we've done it to see if our DM could get better rolls with his real dice and because we wanted the feel of the dice in our hands and the sound of rolling them.
Roll20 also has a voice chat app, we still use discord for that, and for the text chat (which you can also do on roll20).
As a forever GM, I like the idea of an AI GM to do pre-made adventures or stuff you prompt it to do. That can be useful. But people are already doing that with Chat GPT and I'm sure other VTT software will have something similar. Everything else about this software seems lesser compared to competitors and most importantly, you get far less whilst paying far more in terms of the MTX.
I really do hope this doesn't get supported. It might not actually as it seems like several influencers are putting their foot down about this.
Quote from: S'mon on April 04, 2023, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 11:51:45 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2023, 11:05:46 AM
The 4E tools that got released were the only completed parts of what was supposed to be a fully integrated virtual tabletop. There's a whole mess involving the lead designer killing themselves and, depending on the story you believe, either destroyed all the code and its backups before offing himself or (slightly more likely) it was all vaporware they were unable to deliver on and the suicide gave them a story of woe to tell (instead of rank incompetence).
Anyway, the 4E tools we got were thrown together in about a month and the whole digital side basically collapsed before Essentials even released (the original builder could be hacked to get the Dark Sun material they had in the database but hadn't turned on at the point they killed the offline version and others created work arounds to update it with the later material).
So, yes, this just feels like 4Ev2.0 all over again.
Wow, I knew there was something going on and it failed but I didnt know all of that.
Thanks for the full story.
He didn't mention the lead designer also murdered his estranged wife.
I was never sure if that was real or just added for dramatic effect.
Regardless, calling the 4E digital project a dumpster fire is an insult to metal garbage containers filled with lit combustibles.
Quote from: tenbones on April 04, 2023, 10:13:23 AM
D&D aside... (no this isn't D&D) WotC is entering a realm they *have* no idea how to handle. They're producing a videogame and are pretending it's just an "app" to supplement their TTRPG. At least that's how its being sold. But the reality is this is an entirely different industry which they have no real experience in.
Yes, I strongly suspect the Microsoft executives who are now WotC executives came into WotC hoping to make a Live Service video game. Because that's all they know how to do. But they don't actually understand the needs and wants of the Pen and Paper RPG crowd. They think they can turn DnD into a product. A live service they can sell to people. Without understanding that this is a hobby. One that is very different to any one average video game. You could argue they tried to do that with 4E but that was still with the understand of their VTT being able to run on lower end systems. If this isn't optimized for a variety of PC specs, let alone all the different mobile devices, This One DnD thing will flop harder than 4E.
Quote from: S'mon on April 04, 2023, 12:08:11 PM
He didn't mention the lead designer also murdered his estranged wife.
Geeze it's almost getting to the point where we can say WOTC drives their employees nuts and ruins lives.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 12:35:32 PMHe meant what he said.
I use Foundry myself and I don't get along with Pundit. I just tend to play devil's advocate.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 04, 2023, 01:21:10 PM
As a forever GM, I like the idea of an AI GM to do pre-made adventures or stuff you prompt it to do. That can be useful. But people are already doing that with Chat GPT and I'm sure other VTT software will have something similar. Everything else about this software seems lesser compared to competitors and most importantly, you get far less whilst paying far more in terms of the MTX.
I really do hope this doesn't get supported. It might not actually as it seems like several influencers are putting their foot down about this.
Wow- Wizards of the Coast: Never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 04, 2023, 01:34:45 PM
Quote from: tenbones on April 04, 2023, 10:13:23 AM
D&D aside... (no this isn't D&D) WotC is entering a realm they *have* no idea how to handle. They're producing a videogame and are pretending it's just an "app" to supplement their TTRPG. At least that's how its being sold. But the reality is this is an entirely different industry which they have no real experience in.
Yes, I strongly suspect the Microsoft executives who are now WotC executives came into WotC hoping to make a Live Service video game. Because that's all they know how to do. But they don't actually understand the needs and wants of the Pen and Paper RPG crowd. They think they can turn DnD into a product. A live service they can sell to people. Without understanding that this is a hobby. One that is very different to any one average video game. You could argue they tried to do that with 4E but that was still with the understand of their VTT being able to run on lower end systems. If this isn't optimized for a variety of PC specs, let alone all the different mobile devices, This One DnD thing will flop harder than 4E.
From what I can gather, Chris Cocks seems to think that gamers are just one big community with no subsets. A FPS gamer is the same as a JRPG gamer is the same as a TTRPG gamer is the same as a MtG gamer is the same as an MMORPG gamer. Which is why I think he's so full of shit when he claims to be this big D&D player.
Anybody who actually games knows that there is a big difference between people who play WoW and people who play D&D. While there is likely some crossover, generally when a person is logging into WoW it's because they want to play an MMO, whereas when a person is pulling their D&D books off the shelf it's because they want to roll some real dice and tell a story with friends. I came to TTRPGs and board gaming late, though I've been a video gamer most of my life. Still am, but most of my focus has shifted to the analog gaming sphere, and if I'm sitting down at an actual table in-person with friends to play a game, the last thing I want to do is whip out my laptop or tablet and stare at that all night.
All in all, none of the people running the show at Hasbro/WotC give me gamer vibes. On any level. But every single one of them give me "we hate you, give us your money" vibes.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 03, 2023, 02:56:08 PM
Pasty white tech nerd for competency, surrounded by box tickers for optics.
Strange - I was expecting a virtual tabletop but it looks like they are still using tokens!
The 4E character builder was an excellent tool that thankfully was kept alive with community hacks so remains functional. The rest of their VTT aspirations... not so much. But thanks to more community hacks, it was possible to scrape the online compendium for the 4E data and import it to Fantasy Grounds, which automated a lot of it really well. I ran a long campaign for it in Fantasy Grounds and was extremely pleased thanks to the data importer.
I'm all on board with good VTTs so everyone's on the same page about what's where in fights, the automation I can take or leave since it needs to be handled well to not burden a game with people having to fiddle their way through a UI to do anything. Whether this is a good VTT or not is still entirely up in the air on information we don't yet have, but since it's WotC, I'm betting they fuck it up. Unlike previous generations they may actually manage to release working software (since they just outright bought a company that already made it), but I anticipate arduous DLC costs or subscription fees weighing it down.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 04, 2023, 02:10:46 PM
All in all, none of the people running the show at Hasbro/WotC give me gamer vibes. On any level. But every single one of them give me "we hate you, give us your money" vibes.
Nope but they do give the corporate "Give me all of your money vibe" that is for sure.
I cant think of any people, Chris Cocks, etc I have less faith in to not screw things up.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 04, 2023, 01:34:45 PM
Quote from: tenbones on April 04, 2023, 10:13:23 AM
D&D aside... (no this isn't D&D) WotC is entering a realm they *have* no idea how to handle. They're producing a videogame and are pretending it's just an "app" to supplement their TTRPG. At least that's how its being sold. But the reality is this is an entirely different industry which they have no real experience in.
Yes, I strongly suspect the Microsoft executives who are now WotC executives came into WotC hoping to make a Live Service video game. Because that's all they know how to do. But they don't actually understand the needs and wants of the Pen and Paper RPG crowd. They think they can turn DnD into a product. A live service they can sell to people. Without understanding that this is a hobby. One that is very different to any one average video game. You could argue they tried to do that with 4E but that was still with the understand of their VTT being able to run on lower end systems. If this isn't optimized for a variety of PC specs, let alone all the different mobile devices, This One DnD thing will flop harder than 4E.
IF what I read about it is correct then it's even worse than that:
It's not a live service, you run it on your own machine, but you have to pay them a monthly fee for the privilege, Foundry or FG (whichever is pay once and forget) is looking better and better, or the other 3d thingy IF it's pay once.
Me? I'm gonna learn how to use MapTool.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 04, 2023, 01:42:36 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 12:35:32 PMHe meant what he said.
I use Foundry myself and I don't get along with Pundit. I just tend to play devil's advocate.
I get along with him just fine, he's still an asshat at times.
I didn't think you shared his opinion, the devil's advocate vibes were strong and clear.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 04:37:56 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 04, 2023, 01:34:45 PM
Quote from: tenbones on April 04, 2023, 10:13:23 AM
D&D aside... (no this isn't D&D) WotC is entering a realm they *have* no idea how to handle. They're producing a videogame and are pretending it's just an "app" to supplement their TTRPG. At least that's how its being sold. But the reality is this is an entirely different industry which they have no real experience in.
Yes, I strongly suspect the Microsoft executives who are now WotC executives came into WotC hoping to make a Live Service video game. Because that's all they know how to do. But they don't actually understand the needs and wants of the Pen and Paper RPG crowd. They think they can turn DnD into a product. A live service they can sell to people. Without understanding that this is a hobby. One that is very different to any one average video game. You could argue they tried to do that with 4E but that was still with the understand of their VTT being able to run on lower end systems. If this isn't optimized for a variety of PC specs, let alone all the different mobile devices, This One DnD thing will flop harder than 4E.
IF what I read about it is correct then it's even worse than that:
It's not a live service, you run it on your own machine, but you have to pay them a monthly fee for the privilege, Foundry or FG (whichever is pay once and forget) is looking better and better, or the other 3d thingy IF it's pay once.
Me? I'm gonna learn how to use MapTool.
The
WotC Microsoft executives don't care what the pen-and-paper crowd wants. They're going to market Dungeons and Dragons to the new fanbase they think they've acquired through Stranger Things. A younger demographic who are more hip, more technologically savvy, and more politically progressive, who will access this through their Surface tablets.
Quote from: Corolinth on April 04, 2023, 06:04:45 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 04:37:56 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 04, 2023, 01:34:45 PM
Quote from: tenbones on April 04, 2023, 10:13:23 AM
D&D aside... (no this isn't D&D) WotC is entering a realm they *have* no idea how to handle. They're producing a videogame and are pretending it's just an "app" to supplement their TTRPG. At least that's how its being sold. But the reality is this is an entirely different industry which they have no real experience in.
Yes, I strongly suspect the Microsoft executives who are now WotC executives came into WotC hoping to make a Live Service video game. Because that's all they know how to do. But they don't actually understand the needs and wants of the Pen and Paper RPG crowd. They think they can turn DnD into a product. A live service they can sell to people. Without understanding that this is a hobby. One that is very different to any one average video game. You could argue they tried to do that with 4E but that was still with the understand of their VTT being able to run on lower end systems. If this isn't optimized for a variety of PC specs, let alone all the different mobile devices, This One DnD thing will flop harder than 4E.
IF what I read about it is correct then it's even worse than that:
It's not a live service, you run it on your own machine, but you have to pay them a monthly fee for the privilege, Foundry or FG (whichever is pay once and forget) is looking better and better, or the other 3d thingy IF it's pay once.
Me? I'm gonna learn how to use MapTool.
The WotC Microsoft executives don't care what the pen-and-paper crowd wants. They're going to market Dungeons and Dragons to the new fanbase they think they've acquired through Stranger Things. A younger demographic who are more hip, more technologically savvy, and more politically progressive, who will access this through their Surface tablets.
The sad thing is they might be right and end up making lots of coin. Young consumers are brand followers and don't care about property rights, privacy, etc. They are perfectly fine with the megacorporation preventing you from really owning what you bought from them.
Because convenience, safety, blah, blah, blah.
Yet, 99% of them have never formatted a hard drive, built their own PC, used Linux (it's too complicated man!) or fixed anything ever.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on April 04, 2023, 08:51:01 AM
I have zero interest in this. Hard pass.
Bingo.
Gameplay looks clunky, confined to digital parameters and lacking all the magic that made the game famous, but without intregrating a branded VTT, WotC can't monetize via subscriptions and microtransactions. Not to mention you know they won't/can't hire good digital designers and programmers, so it'll be buggy as hell. I expect it to fail hard.
In my experience, the more sophisticated a VTT is, the more burdensome it is for the GM. That's a big problem if you want to actually get more people running games.
I don't want to have to build a 3D model of an Inn every time I want to use one. And I don't want every Inn to look the same. In a certain way the visuals really detract from the experience, whereas before you could just use a few words and describe the scene.
Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2023, 06:53:23 PM
In my experience, the more sophisticated a VTT is, the more burdensome it is for the GM. That's a big problem if you want to actually get more people running games.
I don't want to have to build a 3D model of an Inn every time I want to use one. And I don't want every Inn to look the same. In a certain way the visuals really detract from the experience, whereas before you could just use a few words and describe the scene.
This is a really good point. They are competing with a 30 second improvisation by the GM. Asset Pack 73 - Rural Inn is going to lose on prep time as well as vividness and uniqueness if you have a half decent GM.
It's D&D for people who don't like D&D.
I have invested heavily in miniatures and have made a lot of terrain including a modular foam dungeon.
This is not sour grapes—-but I prefer a physical layout or even theater of the mind (well with at least a map and tokens).
This is not my bag...
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 04, 2023, 07:11:43 PMIt's D&D for people who don't like D&D.
Yeah, they already said it was 5E compatible.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 04, 2023, 07:14:49 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 04, 2023, 07:11:43 PMIt's D&D for people who don't like D&D.
Yeah, they already said it was 5E compatible.
I missed this. Where did they say it would work with 5e?
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 11:36:01 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 04, 2023, 07:14:49 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 04, 2023, 07:11:43 PMIt's D&D for people who don't like D&D.
Yeah, they already said it was 5E compatible.
I missed this. Where did they say it would work with 5e?
They've always said it's compatible. They may well be lying, and even if not, I guarantee they'll change it till it's unusable with 5E within a few years; but they've said it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 05, 2023, 01:19:19 AM
They've always said it's compatible. They may well be lying, and even if not, I guarantee they'll change it till it's unusable with 5E within a few years; but they've said it.
WOTC Lie? Never! ::)
Thanks for the information
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 03, 2023, 03:46:25 PM
Well fuck me, I've been extricating props from my games because they're fussy, they get in the way, and they stifle the imagination, and here we have a set up that is 90% props.
You can't sell imagination, so I see why someone would make this ($$$).
Also, who the hell wants to gather around in person to stare at their individual screens? I do that for work and now I gotta do it for fun? No thanks.
.
Consensus is that they just had everyone present for convenience and what they were INEPTLY trying to show was that it can network and you can play from laptop.
One of my players commented that it looks like it will need some heavy processing to get that level of fidelity.
So wotc as usual somehow, some way, fucking things up. Failure is the only option.
Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2023, 12:28:01 PM
Consensus is that they just had everyone present for convenience and what they were INEPTLY trying to show was that it can network and you can play from laptop.
One of my players commented that it looks like it will need some heavy processing to get that level of fidelity.
So wotc as usual somehow, some way, fucking things up. Failure is the only option.
"Inept" is accurate considering remote play is THE market for VTTs. And yet they couldn't be arsed to have even one player be remote.
"We invented a new soft drink! In our big reveal video we will be washing cats with it!"
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 12:39:54 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2023, 12:28:01 PM
Consensus is that they just had everyone present for convenience and what they were INEPTLY trying to show was that it can network and you can play from laptop.
One of my players commented that it looks like it will need some heavy processing to get that level of fidelity.
So wotc as usual somehow, some way, fucking things up. Failure is the only option.
"Inept" is accurate considering remote play is THE market for VTTs. And yet they couldn't be arsed to have even one player be remote.
"We invented a new soft drink! In our big reveal video we will be washing cats with it!"
OR , it can't network yet and they are so stupid as to not be able to fake it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 12:43:40 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 12:39:54 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2023, 12:28:01 PM
Consensus is that they just had everyone present for convenience and what they were INEPTLY trying to show was that it can network and you can play from laptop.
One of my players commented that it looks like it will need some heavy processing to get that level of fidelity.
So wotc as usual somehow, some way, fucking things up. Failure is the only option.
"Inept" is accurate considering remote play is THE market for VTTs. And yet they couldn't be arsed to have even one player be remote.
"We invented a new soft drink! In our big reveal video we will be washing cats with it!"
OR , it can't network yet and they are so stupid as to not be able to fake it.
Now THAT would be funny AND inept. I know teenagers who could've edited their video to fake a remote play.
Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2023, 12:28:01 PM
Consensus is that they just had everyone present for convenience and what they were INEPTLY trying to show was that it can network and you can play from laptop.
One of my players commented that it looks like it will need some heavy processing to get that level of fidelity.
So wotc as usual somehow, some way, fucking things up. Failure is the only option.
I mean seriously. Does anyone believe that the people in that video weren't actors?
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 05, 2023, 01:16:57 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2023, 12:28:01 PM
Consensus is that they just had everyone present for convenience and what they were INEPTLY trying to show was that it can network and you can play from laptop.
One of my players commented that it looks like it will need some heavy processing to get that level of fidelity.
So wotc as usual somehow, some way, fucking things up. Failure is the only option.
I mean seriously. Does anyone believe that the people in that video weren't actors?
Besides all the people who think that Critical Role is totally not scripted even a little bit and then performed for the cameras?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 01:21:58 PM
Besides all the people who think that Critical Role is totally not scripted even a little bit and then performed for the cameras?
You have to be blind not to know that Critical Role is totally scripted.
As a wise philosopher named Ron White said: "You can't fix stupid"
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 05, 2023, 01:23:50 PM
As a wise philosopher named Ron White said: "You can't fix stupid"
I tried telling this to an SJW, but they just called me Tater Salad :-[
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 05, 2023, 03:13:52 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 05, 2023, 01:23:50 PM
As a wise philosopher named Ron White said: "You can't fix stupid"
I tried telling this to an SJW, but they just called me Tater Salad :-[
they probably called you that but still didn't understand the reference
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 08:51:15 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 04, 2023, 04:30:24 AM
My Sword & Caravan campaign is an online campaign. We don't need a virtual tabletop. We just meet up on video, everyone rolls their own dice because we're grownups. That's it.
I'm surprised. You always seemed like someone resistant to playing online. What changed?
I explain that in my latest video. I still don't care to play online very much, but I now have one campaign that does.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 04, 2023, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2023, 11:30:54 AMWell, your friend (and I) aren't grownups according to Pundit...
Being charitable to him, I meant like "I don't need a public display of rolled dice because I trust my players with the physical dice they roll on their tables".
That is what I meant.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2023, 05:26:33 PM
I explain that in my latest video. I still don't care to play online very much, but I now have one campaign that does.
Ok. Understood.
That's all I have to say regarding this presentation
On a more serious note, I'd rather have one with good drawing tools so the players could draw a dungeon map whiteboard-style. All this 3D stuff is rather clunky and superfluous.
Sadly, the parody video is so on point that it's sad.
WOTC needs to get people who actually game, actually know D&D and will actually make a version people want to play. Take elements for earlier editions and put them in.
Also, stop pushing people to play on a VTT and more towards getting out with actual people and play.
For me its the one for all approach that is the most grating, but I a happy to see WotC attempt corporate suicide.
I think VTT are great for crunch heavy combat games and imagination deficient players. The farther I can get both away from my roleplaying the happier I am.
"Nice" board game simulator you have there, but what does it have to do with roleplaying games which treats the rules as a mere tool kit?
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 07, 2023, 01:29:07 PM
Sadly, the parody video is so on point that it's sad.
WOTC needs to get people who actually game, actually know D&D and will actually make a version people want to play. Take elements for earlier editions and put them in.
Also, stop pushing people to play on a VTT and more towards getting out with actual people and play.
But they can't squeeze the players for cash if they're all playing in person with actual dice and pencils and paper!
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 07, 2023, 10:26:35 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 07, 2023, 01:29:07 PM
Sadly, the parody video is so on point that it's sad.
WOTC needs to get people who actually game, actually know D&D and will actually make a version people want to play. Take elements for earlier editions and put them in.
Also, stop pushing people to play on a VTT and more towards getting out with actual people and play.
But they can't squeeze the players for cash if they're all playing in person with actual dice and pencils and paper!
That's the true motivation, they want their paypigs in a walled garden where they can bleed them with microtransactions up the wazoo.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 07, 2023, 10:26:35 PM
But they can't squeeze the players for cash if they're all playing in person with actual dice and pencils and paper!
Too damn bad. They try so hard to gain more and more control of what Game Masters/DM's and their players DO but they do not understand they have no power.
I want WOTC to try to come and try to take my books and dice away because I am having BADWRONGFUN by playing in person.
I dare them.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 08, 2023, 12:23:42 AM
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 07, 2023, 10:26:35 PM
But they can't squeeze the players for cash if they're all playing in person with actual dice and pencils and paper!
Too damn bad. They try so hard to gain more and more control of what Game Masters/DM's and their players DO but they do not understand they have no power.
I want WOTC to try to come and try to take my books and dice away because I am having BADWRONGFUN by playing in person.
I dare them.
It's so hilarious to me, because my favorite non-TTRPG is Marvel Champions and it's kind of a running joke in the MC community that even if you house rule stuff (like allowing an ally card to be played that is the same character as a hero that is being played by somebody else, which is against the rules), Caleb (the designer) isn't going to show up at your house and tell you you're playing it wrong. He's even said on multiple occasions that it's your table, you play how you want. The polar opposite of WotC's D&D heads.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 04, 2023, 09:40:59 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 03, 2023, 05:53:33 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:15:06 PM
I am sure this will work for some people. I prefer to play in person.
https://youtu.be/S8NoG-w1RbI
That's not D&D. That is WoW.
Extra Hard Pass on that bullshit.
It's worse than WOW. It's WOW with terrible lag becuase people can't make up their minds what to do every round.
Exactly. And it is late to the party as the MMO train has already derailed these past few years. It's been about MOBAs and Crafting for awhile now. But I could see a niche for white room theory crafting PCs v PCs arenas. It'd keep the munchkins busy with pretend penile measurements for Imagination Land.
;D Less nonsense at my table, yay! I can't wait until Faraday shielding becomes standard for man caves! 8)
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 04, 2023, 02:10:46 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 04, 2023, 01:34:45 PM
Quote from: tenbones on April 04, 2023, 10:13:23 AM
D&D aside... (no this isn't D&D) WotC is entering a realm they *have* no idea how to handle. They're producing a videogame and are pretending it's just an "app" to supplement their TTRPG. At least that's how its being sold. But the reality is this is an entirely different industry which they have no real experience in.
Yes, I strongly suspect the Microsoft executives who are now WotC executives came into WotC hoping to make a Live Service video game. Because that's all they know how to do. But they don't actually understand the needs and wants of the Pen and Paper RPG crowd. They think they can turn DnD into a product. A live service they can sell to people. Without understanding that this is a hobby. One that is very different to any one average video game. You could argue they tried to do that with 4E but that was still with the understand of their VTT being able to run on lower end systems. If this isn't optimized for a variety of PC specs, let alone all the different mobile devices, This One DnD thing will flop harder than 4E.
Anybody who actually games knows that there is a big difference between people who play WoW and people who play D&D. While there is likely some crossover, generally when a person is logging into WoW it's because they want to play an MMO, whereas when a person is pulling their D&D books off the shelf it's because they want to roll some real dice and tell a story with friends. I came to TTRPGs and board gaming late, though I've been a video gamer most of my life. Still am, but most of my focus has shifted to the analog gaming sphere, and if I'm sitting down at an actual table in-person with friends to play a game, the last thing I want to do is whip out my laptop or tablet and stare at that all night.
I'm going to go Old man yelling at cloud mode but I would say people who played MMOs like Ultima Online, Everquest, and Star Wars Galaxies had far more in common with people who play Pen and Paper RPGs than the people who got into the glorified single player Diablo clone masquerading as an MMO known as WoW. There was much more of an emphasis on free form sandbox play. "make your own fun". You decided to explore, grind and above all socialize with others. As opposed to being lead by the nose through zones because the idea of going your own way is scary. You had to be creative as a player to make your own fun in the same way you had to be creative playing pen and paper RPGs. If you play Neverwinter Nights there are plenty of persistant worlds that still offer that kind of experience. Especially the roleplaying.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 10:35:50 PM
That's the true motivation, they want their paypigs in a walled garden where they can bleed them with microtransactions up the wazoo.
Yeah, they aren't doing anything to try to hide their true motivations. Whether it will work remains to be seen. If the new edited edition doesn't give DM's and players enough to really be worth upgrading to it could backfire.
Not to mention people have other VTT's they can play D&D on and even if they killed support for the other VTT's there are still enough people who have the D&D content they can use for their VTT already so they can continue to play.
And people will develop things for free to fill the void so they really can't win.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 08, 2023, 02:49:29 AM
It's so hilarious to me, because my favorite non-TTRPG is Marvel Champions and it's kind of a running joke in the MC community that even if you house rule stuff (like allowing an ally card to be played that is the same character as a hero that is being played by somebody else, which is against the rules), Caleb (the designer) isn't going to show up at your house and tell you you're playing it wrong. He's even said on multiple occasions that it's your table, you play how you want. The polar opposite of WotC's D&D heads.
Those are wise words and WOTC would be smart to adapt that line of thinking.
They won't of course because they are greedy idiots fighting a war they wont win.
This looks extremely depressing. When I play pnp games, I imagine social interaction, yelling, high fives, brofists, even things like rolling the dice aggressively while praying to RNGesus. This looks depressingly dystopian, and I'm just asking myself, "what is the point?" The only explanation I have is that it's cost-effective in that it saves on prep work and buying expensive minis, but it's Wokesters of the Coast, so you just know that it's all about microtransactions that stack up anyway.
Jeeze, not everybody can find groups IRL. I have one, but I also have a online group im a part of. Id say its not as great as the base experience, but people treat VTTs like somekind of massive joyless sin.
Online VTTs are perfectly fine for the purpose they serve. However, in the case of the IGN video, the players and DM are in the same room but screening the game via their laptops. It all looks so silly.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 01:06:59 AM
but people treat VTTs like somekind of massive joyless sin.
For me, VTTs place too much emphasis in the wrong place. Automated collaborative book keeping is good. Speeding up complex crunchy calculations is good. Replacing imagination with animation defeats a vital component of the pretend elf game, and heavy automation discourages improvisation.
If the players were sitting around on a couch with tablets instead of character sheet clipboards and a dice tray, and a basic grid was displayed on shared tv screen, it might resemble a different perhaps more convenient way to play a traditional game. Instead we get some bizarre hybrid play where the GM is left to rearrange virtual assets for the players to click on instead of creating worlds, bringing characters to life, narrating, and adjudicating player actions. The computer renders the world and executes the rules. Add some professionally voiced characters for the commercial module and the GM will be relegated to a mere lever editor.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 10, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Replacing imagination with animation defeats a vital component of the pretend elf game, and heavy automation discourages improvisation.
Yes, I feel this 3D VTT hits the most useless possible spot, like the U bend of the Uncanny Valley. It loses all the best things about an imagination-based RPG, without being a proper animated computer game either. The bases on the VTT minis look hideous and are a great example of this Uncanny Valley effect.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 10, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 01:06:59 AM
but people treat VTTs like somekind of massive joyless sin.
For me, VTTs place too much emphasis in the wrong place. Automated collaborative book keeping is good. Speeding up complex crunchy calculations is good. Replacing imagination with animation defeats a vital component of the pretend elf game, and heavy automation discourages improvisation.
If the players were sitting around on a couch with tablets instead of character sheet clipboards and a dice tray, and a basic grid was displayed on shared tv screen, it might resemble a different perhaps more convenient way to play a traditional game. Instead we get some bizarre hybrid play where the GM is left to rearrange virtual assets for the players to click on instead of creating worlds, bringing characters to life, narrating, and adjudicating player actions. The computer renders the world and executes the rules. Add some professionally voiced characters for the commercial module and the GM will be relegated to a mere lever editor.
Most (if not all) of what you complain about is up to the GM:
I've 2+ years playing AD&D2e over Roll20, besides the normal use of the Character sheet we (the players) have automated some rolls for our attacks/spells, the DM has automated PoV/Fog of War and that's it.
Yes, I can click (and sometimes do) on my STs or roll the virtual dice.
But there's no animation of spells of other shit (and Roll20 does have those), because our DM doesn't use them.
Last 2 battles + mini incursion on a tunnel have been done theater of the mind mostly with the occasional doodle to help him describe stuff to us.
Quote from: mudbanks on April 10, 2023, 04:12:06 AM
Online VTTs are perfectly fine for the purpose they serve. However, in the case of the IGN video, the players and DM are in the same room but screening the game via their laptops. It all looks so silly.
It is. It's also a stupid VTT because it doesn't even appear to offer what advantages normal VTTS offer anyway (LOS for instance). Im just saying knock the specific implementation, not purely the idea.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 12:54:48 PM
Quote from: mudbanks on April 10, 2023, 04:12:06 AM
Online VTTs are perfectly fine for the purpose they serve. However, in the case of the IGN video, the players and DM are in the same room but screening the game via their laptops. It all looks so silly.
It is. It's also a stupid VTT because it doesn't even appear to offer what advantages normal VTTS offer anyway (LOS for instance). Im just saying knock the specific implementation, not purely the idea.
I mean, to be in the same room I would rather use terrain and minis, that way I can simulate LOS/Fog of War by only placing the terrain they can see. It's not only cheaper but cooler than their shitty VTT. Make a few AoE templates and you have everything they offer and more. Without microtransactions (unless you count crafting more terrain as such.)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 01:05:48 PM
Without microtransactions (unless you count crafting more terrain as such.)
Actually, in my opinion that is the physical version of microtransactions. Buying miniatures and crafting terrain is an expense that is small but adds up over time. It even supports many markets when you include painting supplies.
All this is threatened by going virtual.
On the other hand, you could just stick to left over printer paper backsides and pencils. With a rule set you like and imagination, you are good.
Quote from: Greentongue on April 10, 2023, 01:37:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 01:05:48 PM
Without microtransactions (unless you count crafting more terrain as such.)
Actually, in my opinion that is the physical version of microtransactions. Buying miniatures and crafting terrain is an expense that is small but adds up over time. It even supports many markets when you include painting supplies.
All this is threatened by going virtual.
On the other hand, you could just stick to left over printer paper backsides and pencils. With a rule set you like and imagination, you are good.
Unless it's a hobby in itself (for some it is) you can do with very little terrain, a few dungeon/sewer/temple/castle/cave tiles, one each Forest/jungle/desert/ice/water mat, some scatter terrain and you're set for life. For minis do like I do, find some nice and free print and play paper ones https://www.printableheroes.com/ (https://www.printableheroes.com/)
Hell, do like I did and find some printable paper terrain or create it yourself.
https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/10150470236358322 (https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/10150470236358322)
https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/1426506401127813488 (https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/1426506401127813488)
https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/3979340988061802186 (https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/3979340988061802186)
Print, cut and paste, then apply a protective coating https://lemp.io/how-to-protect-your-printed-paper-with-varnish-a-comprehensive-guide/ (https://lemp.io/how-to-protect-your-printed-paper-with-varnish-a-comprehensive-guide/)
Quote from: Wisithir on April 10, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Automated collaborative book keeping is good. Speeding up complex crunchy calculations is good.
I agree with everything you said (GM as level designers, etc.), except the bit about bookkeeping. This is supposed to be a game, not a corporate tax filing. So I would go even further.
I went from pencil and paper, to all the fancy tools, and back to pencil and paper. Jotting a note by hand is fastest, and the act of writing helps you remember things. It's all in my notebook, multiple games, multiple campaigns, characters, etc, and no risk that some glitch is going to wipe it.
As for calculations, doing it manually again helps with memory. Letting the computer do all it gets in the way of system mastery. We have enough players who barely know the rules as it is. The more we offload to tech, pretty soon nobody will know the rules except the VTT.
Automated bookkeeping and calculations is really a hybrid between a tabletop game and computer game.
Edit: Adding my general agreement that I neglected to mention first time around.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 10, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
For me, VTTs place too much emphasis in the wrong place. Automated collaborative book keeping is good. Speeding up complex crunchy calculations is good. Replacing imagination with animation defeats a vital component of the pretend elf game, and heavy automation discourages improvisation.
That's not true. I have run run games in person and online and while I prefer playing in person, I have a lot of fun, memorable games using a VTT with plenty of improve.
VTT's are great because there are people who live in places where there aren't gamers and it's the only way they can play. Sure, playing in person is preferred but VTT's are better than not gaming at all.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 02:35:55 PMAutomated bookkeeping and calculations is really a hybrid between a tabletop game and computer game.
That's kind of a disingenuous way of framing it. It's like saying that TTRPGs are drama games for tax accountants.
Play however you want, but your engaging in hyperbolic "onetrueway"-ism.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 03:02:10 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 02:35:55 PMAutomated bookkeeping and calculations is really a hybrid between a tabletop game and computer game.
That's kind of a disingenuous way of framing it. It's like saying that TTRPGs are drama games for tax accountants.
Play however you want, but your engaging in hyperbolic "onetrueway"-ism.
No I'm not. I'm describing how I do it and I'm re-stating accepted facts.
Doing mental arithmetic increases your proficiency at arithmetic.
Writing things down by hand increases recall.
Do I have to cite sources for this kind of obvious stuff?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 03:02:10 PM
That's kind of a disingenuous way of framing it. It's like saying that TTRPGs are drama games for tax accountants.
Play however you want, but your engaging in hyperbolic "onetrueway"-ism.
Second this. This kind of hyperbole doesn't help the situation. Of all the crap going on with the hobby, we are supposed to be the voices of reason.
Look, if you keep adding features to a VTT at some point it becomes a full-fledged multiplayer computer game and is no longer a tabletop game. Hybrid games exist today. Lots of people do roleplay while playing WoW and other multiplayer computer games. Every MPORPG has a set of players who do sub-optimal fluffy role play outside of the game engine's rules. But we don't call those tabletop games.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 04:44:27 PM
Look, if you keep adding features to a VTT at some point it becomes a full-fledged multiplayer computer game and is no longer a tabletop game. Hybrid games exist today. Lots of people do roleplay while playing WoW and other multiplayer computer games. Every MPORPG has a set of players who do sub-optimal fluffy role play outside of the game engine's rules. But we don't call those tabletop games.
They are still table top RPGS. The automation just helps with the rules and helps keep things moving on. The GM is still in control and is explaining what is going on and the players are still making decisions.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 10, 2023, 04:56:36 PM
They are still table top RPGS. The automation just helps with the rules and helps keep things moving on. The GM is still in control and is explaining what is going on and the players are still making decisions.
I think there's more to the definition of a tabletop game than a GM in control and players making decisions.
In my view, there also has to be freedom for the GM. Freedom to invent encounters out of thin air, invent monsters on the spot, alter rules, make one-off rulings, etc. Players should have freedom to take an action that has verisimilitude with the setting. Want to sit down a smoke a pipe in the middle of a battlefield? Just say it, and it happens. Automation runs counter to that freedom because it necessarily makes assumptions about what decisions the GM and player might make, and therefore stifles freedom of play.
In short, I agree with the person I originally replied to (Wisithir), except I take it a step further and question why we even need automatic calculations and digital note taking, when they discourage rules mastery and recall. It's a joy to game with people who know the rules well. That's how you keep things moving. Even better when people aren't fussing with their note taking apps or tablets.
Glitch in the Matrix. Ignore.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 05:52:03 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 10, 2023, 04:56:36 PM
They are still table top RPGS. The automation just helps with the rules and helps keep things moving on. The GM is still in control and is explaining what is going on and the players are still making decisions.
I think there's more to the definition of a tabletop game than a GM in control and players making decisions.
In my view, there also has to be freedom for the GM. Freedom to invent encounters out of thin air, invent monsters on the spot, alter rules, make one-off rulings, etc. Players should have freedom to take an action that has verisimilitude with the setting. Want to sit down a smoke a pipe in the middle of a battlefield? Just say it, and it happens. Automation runs counter to that freedom because it necessarily makes assumptions about what decisions the GM and player might make, and therefore stifles freedom of play.
In short, I agree with the person I originally replied to (Wisithir), except I take it a step further and question why we even need automatic calculations and digital note taking, when they discourage rules mastery and recall. It's a joy to game with people who know the rules well. That's how you keep things moving. Even better when people aren't fussing with their note taking apps or tablets.
Automating the attack/magic rolls gets in the way of the GM's freedom?
Have you ever used a VTT?
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 03:32:23 PMNo I'm not. I'm describing how I do it and I'm re-stating accepted facts.
Are you for real
#facts&logic-ing me?
Your engaging in rhetoric and truthism. I can claim that in my home game you have to do 5 jumping jacks for every hit point you suffer to encourage immersion, and integrate full body workouts to improve body health as extended sitting is bad for the heart. Not doing so is encouraging unhealthy habits and causes obesity.
If you don't do this, your game encourages obesity. Just hardcore facts at you.
Anyway but with your swagger and ego this is all a pointless debate.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 10, 2023, 04:18:14 PMSecond this. This kind of hyperbole doesn't help the situation. Of all the crap going on with the hobby, we are supposed to be the voices of reason.
Everybody has their own opinion on what "good" even is. I see this place as a area for free speech, not necacarily because we are the #factions&reasonable
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 03:32:23 PMNo I'm not. I'm describing how I do it and I'm re-stating accepted facts.
Are you for real #facts&logic-ing me?
Your engaging in rhetoric and truthism. I can claim that in my home game you have to do 5 jumping jacks for every hit point you suffer to encourage immersion, and integrate full body workouts to improve body health as extended sitting is bad for the heart. Not doing so is encouraging unhealthy habits and causes obesity.
If you don't do this, your game encourages obesity. Just hardcore facts at you.
Anyway but with your swagger and ego this is all a pointless debate.
Well yes, tabletop games do encourage obesity. That is a fact and, despite the relatively inconsequential amount of weight gain, it would be stupid to argue against a fact.
I think the discussion ended with your use of buzzwords and hash tags. "onetruewayism" is not the debate winning logic bomb that you think it is. There are better ways and worse ways of doing anything.
Any who gives a shit if my game encourages obesity and your game makes you worse at math. Was I telling you how to play?
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 06:50:12 PM
Well yes, tabletop games do encourage obesity.
No YOUR games do. Mine don't. Just so we are factually clear. And of course the problems games cause being inconsequential....Well is very much debatable.
Anyway enjoy your facts & logic.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:57:33 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 06:50:12 PM
Well yes, tabletop games do encourage obesity.
No YOUR games do. Mine don't. Just so we are factually clear. And of course the problems games cause being inconsequential....Well is very much debatable.
Fair enough. Point conceded. Your games involve jumping jacks and thus would not have the same problem.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 04:44:27 PM
Look, if you keep adding features to a VTT at some point it becomes a full-fledged multiplayer computer game and is no longer a tabletop game. Hybrid games exist today. Lots of people do roleplay while playing WoW and other multiplayer computer games. Every MPORPG has a set of players who do sub-optimal fluffy role play outside of the game engine's rules. But we don't call those tabletop games.
Greetings!
Totally true, Rytrasmi!
I've played WoW for *years*. Lots of people gaming in WoW even like to believe that they are "roleplaying." True RPG gamers though, that have actually played D&D, know well the huge difference. At best, you could classify WoW as a CRPG, or of course MMORPG, but it definitely is not a TTRPG.
Computer games are computer games. Or video games. That is entirely different in huge ways from being a TTRPG, despite sharing many similarities and common vocabulary.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I've been using Fantasy Grounds and Foundry for years now, and while they can absolutely do things like roll for attack/damage/save/etc, I as GM can override them whenever I see fit. I tend to not fudge things, so I'd say a good 95% of the time I'm content to let the automated systems do their thing, but in some edge cases where the rules as written aren't a good fit for what's going on, I step in. It doesn't hamper my ability to GM at all or take any amount of control away from me, nor does it lighten the load for coming up with content for my games. What it does do is lighten the load for bookkeeping, as I can just drag and drop monster stats/spells/weapons/whatever from the compendium onto a sheet to get NPCs built without flipping through a bunch of books.
In some cases you can buy pre-baked adventures for VTTs that actually have encounters and maps and everything already laid out, if you're ultra-lazy that is an option, though it's not fundamentally different from running one of them in person.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 05:52:03 PM
I think there's more to the definition of a tabletop game than a GM in control and players making decisions.
In my view, there also has to be freedom for the GM. Freedom to invent encounters out of thin air, invent monsters on the spot, alter rules, make one-off rulings, etc. Players should have freedom to take an action that has verisimilitude with the setting. Want to sit down a smoke a pipe in the middle of a battlefield? Just say it, and it happens. Automation runs counter to that freedom because it necessarily makes assumptions about what decisions the GM and player might make, and therefore stifles freedom of play.
In short, I agree with the person I originally replied to (Wisithir), except I take it a step further and question why we even need automatic calculations and digital note taking, when they discourage rules mastery and recall. It's a joy to game with people who know the rules well. That's how you keep things moving. Even better when people aren't fussing with their note taking apps or tablets.
All of which can be done with a VTT. A VTT is just a gathering place with tools. it doesn't prevent all the things that make an in person rpg fun.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:21:09 PM
Everybody has their own opinion on what "good" even is. I see this place as a area for free speech, not necessarily because we are the #factions&reasonable
Yes, but when someone says something about VTT's such as they prevent things that they DO NOT prevent because I have used them for a long time, I am going to call them out.
I clearly think that rytrasmi has never used a VTT and is speaking from a place where they don't have actual knowledge. I do.
Just look at their comment about Obesity which you even objected to.
When I talk about something I want there to be facts, not just hyperbole and made up facts because they have an axe to grind.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 08:43:49 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:21:09 PM
Everybody has their own opinion on what "good" even is. I see this place as a area for free speech, not necessarily because we are the #factions&reasonable
Yes, but when someone says something about VTT's such as they prevent things that they DO NOT prevent because I have used them for a long time, I am going to call them out.
I clearly think that rytrasmi has never used a VTT and is speaking from a place where they don't have actual knowledge. I do.
Just look at their comment about Obesity which you even objected to.
When I talk about something I want there to be facts, not just hyperbole and made up facts because they have an axe to grind.
I've used VTTs, notably Roll20, Foundry, Owlbear, and Shmeppy. I continue to use only Owlbear and Shmeppy because they mostly stay out of the way.
Why would I disparage a tool that brings together gamers? Besides the obvious benefit of allowing people to game at a distance, VTTs actually make it possible to assemble a group to play lesser-known or obscure games, which I have done and continue to do.
To be perfectly clear, the aspects of VTTs that I'm critical of are automatic calculations, coded rules sets, flashy graphics, and things like that. Obviously many people like those for sake of convenience and to keep things moving, like you said above. I consider those tools the start down a slippery slope towards video gaming. In my opinion, they directly oppose a core aspect of tabletop games, which is knowledge and discussion of the rules. As automated features keep getting added, and the video that started this thread demonstrates that WotC is working towards this, then rules knowledge and discussion will more and more be delegated to the computer. I'm not saying that haggling about rules is fun. Rather, if everyone knows the rules, then games run very smoothly and whether or not a rule applies in a certain situation is always open to discussion. In my experience VTTs often get in the way of that.
Obviously, automatic addition of a modifier to a roll-to-hit is no big deal. So lets make that easier and calculate damage. Oh, heck, there's a save and a crit. Let's have the computer look those up, too. If that continues to its logical conclusion, then a player will just push a button and an enemy will die. Is this some strawman I constructed to win an argument? I suppose it's possible, but that's not my intent. Most players and even some GMs, especially casual ones, are very lazy. Many have barely any understanding of the rules. This kind of player will flock to feature rich VTTs as a form of passive entertainment. How does this affect me? The same as any big change to a hobby: others will come to expect this kind of thing and it will be harder to find people who play the way I prefer.
Owlbear has a design philosophy of minimal interference and simply providing what remoteness takes away from gamers: a map, tokens, and dice. They've had some feature creep with 2.0, but whatever, it's still minimal. Shmeppy goes even further and eschews fancy graphics for sake of tools that allow you to draw quickly, thereby allowing more fluid improvisation. Their philosophy is even more minimal: i.e., fancy maps and tokens distract from the theatre of mind experience.
So I am not just some random Luddite on the internet raging against tech. There are others who share the same opinions as to what makes a good game and some of them even make VTTs that embody these opinions.
I have no idea why criticism of feature rich VTTs has brought so much vitriol from people around here. You guys like your Cadillac VTTs. How does my opinion affect that? Do people feel threatened by different opinions?
My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.
Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 08:43:49 AMYes, but when someone says something about VTT's such as they prevent things that they DO NOT prevent because I have used them for a long time, I am going to call them out.
This was more about I don't see this place or "Us" as 'the correct ones". In a place of real free speech, we can expect dissent and disagreement between ourselves.
I do think rytrasmi is being obstinate. Im just saying petty behaviour like this is to be expected sometimes when real free speech can happen.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 11, 2023, 10:29:00 AM
This was more about I don't see this place or "Us" as 'the correct ones". In a place of real free speech, we can expect dissent and disagreement between ourselves.
I do think rytrasmi is being obstinate. Im just saying petty behaviour like this is to be expected sometimes when real free speech can happen.
Fair point.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AM
My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.
Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.
That can happen on VTT's. GMs/DMs can overrule roles, VTT's are just facilities to gather people to play tabletop role playing games. They are nothing like video games because at the end of the day, the DM/GM has full control.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 10:43:35 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AM
My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.
Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.
That can happen on VTT's. GMs/DMs can overrule roles, VTT's are just facilities to gather people to play tabletop role playing games. They are nothing like video games because at the end of the day, the DM/GM has full control.
Dude, you accuse me of having no experience with what I'm talking about and then you nitpick a tiny part of my post where I fully explain how I know what I'm talking about.
Yeah, nothing like video games, if you ignore the screen, coded character sheets, 3d models, dynamic lighting, special effects, automatic calculations, event scripting, and subcriptions. Not a single similarity!
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 11:24:27 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 10:43:35 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AM
My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.
Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.
That can happen on VTT's. GMs/DMs can overrule roles, VTT's are just facilities to gather people to play tabletop role playing games. They are nothing like video games because at the end of the day, the DM/GM has full control.
Dude, you accuse me of having no experience with what I'm talking about and then you nitpick a tiny part of my post where I fully explain how I know what I'm talking about.
Yeah, nothing like video games, if you ignore the screen, coded character sheets, 3d models, dynamic lighting, special effects, automatic calculations, event scripting, and subcriptions. Not a single similarity!
I might be wrong but if not then no other VTT (except Tabletop Simulator) has 3d models.
Dynamic lighting... Something you can turn off.
Special effects... You mean the animated spells and stuff like that? It's something you don't have to use on the other VTTs that have it.
Automatic calculations... Something you don't have to use.
What's event scripting?
Subscriptions... There's 100% gratis VTTs and some that have a gratis tier.
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.
I answered this question in detail above, so obviously you didn't read that. I have nothing against you personally, but I'm tired of trying to discuss things with reactionary people who don't read and are hostile to opinions they disagree with.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 08:43:49 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:21:09 PM
Everybody has their own opinion on what "good" even is. I see this place as a area for free speech, not necessarily because we are the #factions&reasonable
Yes, but when someone says something about VTT's such as they prevent things that they DO NOT prevent because I have used them for a long time, I am going to call them out.
I clearly think that rytrasmi has never used a VTT and is speaking from a place where they don't have actual knowledge. I do.
Just look at their comment about Obesity which you even objected to.
When I talk about something I want there to be facts, not just hyperbole and made up facts because they have an axe to grind.
I've used VTTs, notably Roll20, Foundry, Owlbear, and Shmeppy. I continue to use only Owlbear and Shmeppy because they mostly stay out of the way.
Why would I disparage a tool that brings together gamers? Besides the obvious benefit of allowing people to game at a distance, VTTs actually make it possible to assemble a group to play lesser-known or obscure games, which I have done and continue to do.
To be perfectly clear, the aspects of VTTs that I'm critical of are automatic calculations, coded rules sets, flashy graphics, and things like that. Obviously many people like those for sake of convenience and to keep things moving, like you said above. I consider those tools the start down a slippery slope towards video gaming. In my opinion, they directly oppose a core aspect of tabletop games, which is knowledge and discussion of the rules. As automated features keep getting added, and the video that started this thread demonstrates that WotC is working towards this, then rules knowledge and discussion will more and more be delegated to the computer. I'm not saying that haggling about rules is fun. Rather, if everyone knows the rules, then games run very smoothly and whether or not a rule applies in a certain situation is always open to discussion. In my experience VTTs often get in the way of that.
Obviously, automatic addition of a modifier to a roll-to-hit is no big deal. So lets make that easier and calculate damage. Oh, heck, there's a save and a crit. Let's have the computer look those up, too. If that continues to its logical conclusion, then a player will just push a button and an enemy will die. Is this some strawman I constructed to win an argument? I suppose it's possible, but that's not my intent. Most players and even some GMs, especially casual ones, are very lazy. Many have barely any understanding of the rules. This kind of player will flock to feature rich VTTs as a form of passive entertainment. How does this affect me? The same as any big change to a hobby: others will come to expect this kind of thing and it will be harder to find people who play the way I prefer.
Owlbear has a design philosophy of minimal interference and simply providing what remoteness takes away from gamers: a map, tokens, and dice. They've had some feature creep with 2.0, but whatever, it's still minimal. Shmeppy goes even further and eschews fancy graphics for sake of tools that allow you to draw quickly, thereby allowing more fluid improvisation. Their philosophy is even more minimal: i.e., fancy maps and tokens distract from the theatre of mind experience.
So I am not just some random Luddite on the internet raging against tech. There are others who share the same opinions as to what makes a good game and some of them even make VTTs that embody these opinions.
I have no idea why criticism of feature rich VTTs has brought so much vitriol from people around here. You guys like your Cadillac VTTs. How does my opinion affect that? Do people feel threatened by different opinions?
My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.
Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.
Greetings!
Yes, Rytrasmi. I suppose I would use a VTT if I absolutely had to. Again, friends living in other states, yeah, you need a VTT. That's fine.
Personally, though, I always prefer face-to face, in person gaming. ANALOG BABY! That's right. Books, paper, dice, models. That's all that is needed. Imagination. A group of friends.
An, well, also some drinks and a few fine cigars. ;D
Yes, I am an old school dinosaur. I don't need computers or cell phones at the game table. Get way from the fucking screens and shit. Fucking UNPLUG.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.
I answered this question in detail above, so obviously you didn't read that. I have nothing against you personally, but I'm tired of trying to discuss things with reactionary people who don't read and are hostile to opinions they disagree with.
And you focused on that instead of the stuff above in the same post.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
I might be wrong but if not then no other VTT (except Tabletop Simulator) has 3d models.
Dynamic lighting... Something you can turn off.
Special effects... You mean the animated spells and stuff like that? It's something you don't have to use on the other VTTs that have it.
Automatic calculations... Something you don't have to use.
What's event scripting?
Subscriptions... There's 100% gratis VTTs and some that have a gratis tier.
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.
I use Fantasy Grounds and it either doesn't have these features or like you say can be turned off.
VTT's are nothing like video games. They are just an aid to play.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PMHave you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.
Hell D&DOne doesn't appear to offer any automation features at all from what they appear to say. It's basically virtual minifigs, rulers, and dice. Which I mean makes it double suck in my mind, but whatever.
I use some automation in my games. In games where positioning ends up very important or with complex layouts I think LOS generation is a very handy resource. Mental visualization and presentation of 3D space is not a skill everybody has equally.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AMDo people feel threatened by different opinions?
Because you're being an asshole about it. "Just stating facts yo" is just such a common way to hide asshole disparaging behavior. "Look I'm just saying that your face is covered in pimples and your buck teeth need corrective surgery". My obesity point was made because it's engaging in the same sort of hide-behind behavior. Just as much that TTRPGs cause obesity, doing minor arithmetic by hand increases your skills, and book referencing increases rules mastery. When it can just as much mean a much slower game where all the players ask the GM what every element means and have them do all the maths and memorization for them. Especially if you're referencing lazy GMs and players. If those people where truly lazy an uninvolved, your not going to get them to love the game and read the rules simply due to a lack of automation features. Their probably just gonna hang out at half-effort.
Im in no way "threatened" by your "truth to power" opinions. I play in person on Saturdays with no machines besides virtual books, and with a VTT with some minor scripting on Thursdays. I think Saturdays are better but everything else you say is basically misplaced and disingenuous. Everybody who has jumped ship to videogames has basically done so already.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 01:17:30 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.
I answered this question in detail above, so obviously you didn't read that. I have nothing against you personally, but I'm tired of trying to discuss things with reactionary people who don't read and are hostile to opinions they disagree with.
And you focused on that instead of the stuff above in the same post.
Let me go back and reply item by item despite the fact that you didn't show me the same courtesy. Because I'm a doormat and also a personal secretary.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 11, 2023, 02:26:17 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AMDo people feel threatened by different opinions?
Because you're being an asshole about it. "Just stating facts yo" is just such a common way to hide asshole disparaging behavior. "Look I'm just saying that your face is covered in pimples and your buck teeth need corrective surgery". My obesity point was made because it's engaging in the same sort of hide-behind behavior. Just as much that TTRPGs cause obesity, doing minor arithmetic by hand increases your skills, and book referencing increases rules mastery. When it can just as much mean a much slower game where all the players ask the GM what every element means and have them do all the maths and memorization for them. Especially if you're referencing lazy GMs and players. If those people where truly lazy an uninvolved, your not going to get them to love the game and read the rules simply due to a lack of automation features. Their probably just gonna hang out at half-effort.
Im in no way "threatened" by your "truth to power" opinions. I play in person on Saturdays with no machines besides virtual books, and with a VTT with some minor scripting on Thursdays. I think Saturdays are better but everything else you say is basically misplaced and disingenuous. Everybody who has jumped ship to videogames has basically done so already.
Where are you getting this from?
I stated my opinion based on my experience and I suggested that feature rich VTTs are a hybrid game. Your reply to that was to say disingenuous and onetruewayism.
I made no value judgement about a hybrid game being any better or worse, you're reading that into what I said. And even after I clarify that I quite like minimal VTTs, you stand by your misapprehension of what I said and call me an asshole.
If you disagree, then kindly explain why you were so hostile to my opening post.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 03:02:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 01:17:30 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 12:51:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.
I answered this question in detail above, so obviously you didn't read that. I have nothing against you personally, but I'm tired of trying to discuss things with reactionary people who don't read and are hostile to opinions they disagree with.
And you focused on that instead of the stuff above in the same post.
Let me go back and reply item by item despite the fact that you didn't show me the same courtesy. Because I'm a doormat and also a personal secretary.
Or I honestly didn't see your previous post, but whatever, have a good day.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 01:49:27 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
I might be wrong but if not then no other VTT (except Tabletop Simulator) has 3d models.
Dynamic lighting... Something you can turn off.
Special effects... You mean the animated spells and stuff like that? It's something you don't have to use on the other VTTs that have it.
Automatic calculations... Something you don't have to use.
What's event scripting?
Subscriptions... There's 100% gratis VTTs and some that have a gratis tier.
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.
I use Fantasy Grounds and it either doesn't have these features or like you say can be turned off.
VTT's are nothing like video games. They are just an aid to play.
For people who can't find a group to play in person or that want to play with friends that moved far away.
To be a video game it would need to eschew the GM and have an AI instead.
I do agree that some features might make people lazy, or not using them make you better at stuff...
But I don't play TTRPGs to get better at math or to improve my memory, heck we have one player that knows by heart ALL the AD&D2e shit, I mean even the Player Options for fucks sake, and he's playing with us on a VTT.
I'm not getting younger and yet just by playing with him my rules mastery is improving, I guess there's some way to have the VTT give you the rules but our DM doesn't use that feature, so when any doubt arises we read the books or this guy just of the top of his head tells us the exact rule.
Which sometimes it's just out of curiosity since the DM has his houserules in place.
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?
Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?
Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.
For about a year, we had to play online due to crazy personal schedules messing up our gaming group. We used Zoom. That was the closest we could get to being there in person. The game we were playing is very amenable to minimal back and forth needed during combat, because it was designed that way. (You don't have a lot of "Rolled a 16, did I hit?" conversations, for example.)
In fairness, though, I find that video cuts my effective "meeting time" in half. I need more and longer breaks before the tiredness starts to interfere with my ability to do whatever the meeting is about, because you have to pay a lot more conscious attention to interactions. Working mostly remote in a day job has driven that home. Gaming for me is a break from all that. I don't even like using "digital assistants" when otherwise playing at the table. Prep for game, oh yeah, that's great. Got a great setup, with dual, fairly large monitors, good machine, fast connections.
I think I've downloaded every free version of every VTT in existence to evaluate at one time or another, and read extensively on the other ones. Been tempted a few times by the features. I get why some people would, but for me it is a huge, net drawback, to the point where I'd almost rather not play at all. At the very least, online is a different beast in my mind, to the point that I would only do it long term by adapting the game to be that hybrid video/RPG thing, not put it in the same bucket as the in person version.
Just like for a given table top game, there are some systems that are a better starting point than others, you don't want to get into a place where you are fighting with your tools. Why turn D&D into GURPS or GURPS into D&D, when you can just play the thing you are trying to wrestle into a pretzel. So if I were to go with a VTT, I'd want to play a game that took advantage of
all the features of the tool and was about that. Which right now is mainly semi-scripted, prepared location play.
Speaking of which, the WotC VTT so far appears to be all flash, no substance. Don't want to play that game, literally or figuratively.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 04:25:26 PM
For people who can't find a group to play in person or that want to play with friends that moved far away.
I agree with this. Also, VTT's can be good way to play games that are not D&D. Seems easier to find non-D&D players this way.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 04:25:26 PMTo be a video game it would need to eschew the GM and have an AI instead.
Very true.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 04:25:26 PMI do agree that some features might make people lazy, or not using them make you better at stuff...
But I don't play TTRPGs to get better at math or to improve my memory, heck we have one player that knows by heart ALL the AD&D2e shit, I mean even the Player Options for fucks sake, and he's playing with us on a VTT.
I'm not getting younger and yet just by playing with him my rules mastery is improving, I guess there's some way to have the VTT give you the rules but our DM doesn't use that feature, so when any doubt arises we read the books or this guy just of the top of his head tells us the exact rule.
Which sometimes it's just out of curiosity since the DM has his houserules in place.
Exactly. All of this.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?
Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.
Better experience? No. But if you are not using maps and minis and you can trust your players to role their own dice fairly, then a VTT wouldn't be needed.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?
Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.
It could be a better experience, especially if you already don't use maps and minis. At the very least you won't have people fussing with tech that you won't be using.
I use a minimal VTT, but often we have sessions where we never touch it. Sometimes there's no combat or very simple combat.
I find that eye candy helps with remote gaming, but you don't need a VTT for that. You can just use your video app to share images or video or even hold up a picture to the webcam. I often drop a piece of art into chat.
Quote from: SHARK on April 11, 2023, 01:14:05 PM
Greetings!
Yes, Rytrasmi. I suppose I would use a VTT if I absolutely had to. Again, friends living in other states, yeah, you need a VTT. That's fine.
Personally, though, I always prefer face-to face, in person gaming. ANALOG BABY! That's right. Books, paper, dice, models. That's all that is needed. Imagination. A group of friends.
An, well, also some drinks and a few fine cigars. ;D
Yes, I am an old school dinosaur. I don't need computers or cell phones at the game table. Get way from the fucking screens and shit. Fucking UNPLUG.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You said it, Shark! Face-to-face is the best, whenever possible. And lots of the software that's sold as helpful is mostly just a distraction.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?
Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.
100% me for sure. In 2020 I played in two regular online campaigns -- one via VTT and one using just Google Meet. The VTT game dragged terribly due to VTT management, and the players frequently needed verbal descriptions to augment what they were seeing (or ignoring).
The Meet game was ToTM, and rocked.
I've played in other campaigns with VTTs, that didn't last as long because they sucked too badly. I've never once had a net-positive experience with any of them, and from what I can see WoTC's will be the worst yet, as it drifts even further into RPG-disruption territory.
I'd be ok playing on Discord with audio or text chat. Either an in app dice roller or I roll all the dice. I always verify dice rolls, just in case. Once I found a cheater and it destroyed my desire to run that campaign. I used to GM in dragonsfoot text chat until they lost the dice roller, that was fine.
Quote from: S'mon on April 12, 2023, 10:56:05 AM
I'd be ok playing on Discord with audio or text chat. Either an in app dice roller or I roll all the dice. I always verify dice rolls, just in case. Once I found a cheater and it destroyed my desire to run that campaign.
Yep, I've used Discord dice rollers to solve that problem. Dice Maiden is one that's very easy to use.
Quote from: Zalman on April 12, 2023, 10:54:33 AM
100% me for sure. In 2020 I played in two regular online campaigns -- one via VTT and one using just Google Meet. The VTT game dragged terribly due to VTT management, and the players frequently needed verbal descriptions to augment what they were seeing (or ignoring).
The Meet game was ToTM, and rocked.
I've played in other campaigns with VTTs, that didn't last as long because they sucked too badly. I've never once had a net-positive experience with any of them, and from what I can see WoTC's will be the worst yet, as it drifts even further into RPG-disruption territory.
Sounds like either a bad VTT or Bad GM/DM (or both)
Fantasy grounds which I use for online games allows for maps which shows people exactly what they see. Though I give it a bit more detail.
Quote from: S'mon on April 12, 2023, 10:56:05 AM
I'd be ok playing on Discord with audio or text chat. Either an in app dice roller or I roll all the dice. I always verify dice rolls, just in case. Once I found a cheater and it destroyed my desire to run that campaign. I used to GM in dragonsfoot text chat until they lost the dice roller, that was fine.
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 11:42:53 AM
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.
I agree.
I had a problem player and one of the issues I had was that he cheated his dice rolls. He succeed way too often (like on almost all of his rolls) and there was just no way he could be statistically that lucky.
I confronted him on the issues I had with him including the cheating. When I mentioned it he didn't deny it.
I kicked him out of the game. I hate cheaters.
Quote from: Zalman on April 12, 2023, 10:54:33 AM
100% me for sure. In 2020 I played in two regular online campaigns -- one via VTT and one using just Google Meet. The VTT game dragged terribly due to VTT management, and the players frequently needed verbal descriptions to augment what they were seeing (or ignoring).
The Meet game was ToTM, and rocked.
I've played in other campaigns with VTTs, that didn't last as long because they sucked too badly. I've never once had a net-positive experience with any of them, and from what I can see WoTC's will be the worst yet, as it drifts even further into RPG-disruption territory.
I like to watch/listen to actual plays (when I can find a good one) and I've become a big fan of the way Craig from Third Floor Wars runs his stuff on VTTs. Basically he uses maps when necessary for travel (important for Forbidden Lands), and otherwise uses it only for rolls and occasionally very loose positioning when it comes to combat. His style is very much "tell, don't show", which seems to do a pretty good job of keeping everybody focused on the story and the game, even when there's a technical issue with the VTT. I'm really hoping he decides to run a campaign with
The Darkest House in it because, a) I would really love a chance to actually play it, and b) I want to see what he does with the descriptions for the house itself and all of the NPCs and creatures inside it. I can see that be utterly terrifying, which would be perfect.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?
Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.
Might be? Yes
It's guaranteed to be? No
If you run ONLY theater of the mind campaigns you DO NOT need a VTT, and it might end up getting on your way.
By what you say you would also kick out anyone that has problems functioning without SOME visual representation of the stuff, be it full on maps, floor plans or just a grid paper with a map drawn on it by hand + some miniatures.
Meaning most if not all people with autism (like myself).
VTTs are just a tool, not THE tool.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:05:41 PM
VTTs are just a tool, not THE tool.
I agree with this 100%
VTT's are just a tool but not the only one. They are there to help. Nothing else.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 11:42:53 AM
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.
There have always been people who will cheat (lie, steal, etc.) just to see if they can get away with it. If you don't stop them, they'll keep pushing. If you put blocks, they'll try to get around them. The only real answer is to distance yourself from them. There's a branch of this personality type that won't do anything dishonest with any real stakes in place. It's a risk/reward calculus. They love to cheat and the thrill of getting away with it and the risk of getting caught--but they don't want to risk any serious repercussions. Cheating during an RPG is pretty much exactly the kind of thing they'll do.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 12, 2023, 12:09:06 PM
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 11:42:53 AM
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.
There have always been people who will cheat (lie, steal, etc.) just to see if they can get away with it. If you don't stop them, they'll keep pushing. If you put blocks, they'll try to get around them. The only real answer is to distance yourself from them. There's a branch of this personality type that won't do anything dishonest with any real stakes in place. It's a risk/reward calculus. They love to cheat and the thrill of getting away with it and the risk of getting caught--but they don't want to risk any serious repercussions. Cheating during an RPG is pretty much exactly the kind of thing they'll do.
For sure, but I do wonder if it's something that has become more prevalent with the modern crowd due to so much of the "me, me, me" mentality spawned by social media, where so many players seem to have issues with main character syndrome. There have certainly always been liars and cheats, but I do think we're seeing an upswing in the ones motivated more for the attention or because of fear of failure.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 12, 2023, 12:09:06 PM
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 11:42:53 AM
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.
There have always been people who will cheat (lie, steal, etc.) just to see if they can get away with it. If you don't stop them, they'll keep pushing. If you put blocks, they'll try to get around them. The only real answer is to distance yourself from them. There's a branch of this personality type that won't do anything dishonest with any real stakes in place. It's a risk/reward calculus. They love to cheat and the thrill of getting away with it and the risk of getting caught--but they don't want to risk any serious repercussions. Cheating during an RPG is pretty much exactly the kind of thing they'll do.
For sure, but I do wonder if it's something that has become more prevalent with the modern crowd due to so much of the "me, me, me" mentality spawned by social media, where so many players seem to have issues with main character syndrome. There have certainly always been liars and cheats, but I do think we're seeing an upswing in the ones motivated more for the attention or because of fear of failure.
My 10th level wizard has a back pack of holding that unfolds into a tent, one time we used it to rest (time inside works different) to speed our recovering spells... Well, of all 5 of us (the DM included) nobody remembered that we had the thing backwards, time inside it is half the time outside, not double.
Long story short, while doing some Character Sheet organizing I stumbled upon the note I made when Duncan first got it... Fuck me -I thought- we cheated, we're gonna have to re-do the session!
So I contacted the DM over Discord and told him the mistake, how it was a honest one and that I thought we should re-do the session.
Cheating, fudging dice, etc remove the sense of risk, where's the fun?
Some people have a very crappy life, and want to 'win' in their fantasy games no matter what. The people who turn up with a character already 'rolled up' only want to use their 'lucky dice' and read the adventure so they can game it.
I just watched a session Zero with character gen, where the GM let everyone roll off camera. Now it was a system where the odds skew heavily towards low to average results, with the really good stuff being locked behind 80+ on percentiles. Lo and behold this guy happened to roll high on most things, and above average on his 'dump stats.'
The GM called him on it passive-aggressively by 'joking' about his having loaded dice. I saw the cheater's face, and thought "this guy is so unsubtle, he's going to say his next roll is a 1, to show he's totes not cheating." He 'rolled' a 2.
Yeah, the answer to "Why would a person read the adventure ahead of time and spoil the game for themselves?" is easy. Haven't you ever met someone that when they know someone is giving them a wrapped present later, will move heaven earth to find out what is in that box, anything short of simply waiting to open it at the expected time?
It really isn't anything to do with the game, but rather about that person's personality. And if the question is the broader why on the personality, then well, heck, some people are screwed up, and some people are pretty normal otherwise but just plain contrary at times.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 01:04:16 PM
The GM called him on it passive-aggressively by 'joking' about his having loaded dice. I saw the cheater's face, and thought "this guy is so unsubtle, he's going to say his next roll is a 1, to show he's totes not cheating." He 'rolled' a 2.
Sounds like a total doofus.
I once tilted my webcam to show the second natural 1 I rolled in a row (d20 system) because it was freakin st00pid how bad I was rolling.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 01:04:16 PM
Some people have a very crappy life, and want to 'win' in their fantasy games no matter what. The people who turn up with a character already 'rolled up' only want to use their 'lucky dice' and read the adventure so they can game it.
Sadly true but when you cheat you don't actually win anything.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 01:46:13 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 01:04:16 PM
Some people have a very crappy life, and want to 'win' in their fantasy games no matter what. The people who turn up with a character already 'rolled up' only want to use their 'lucky dice' and read the adventure so they can game it.
Sadly true but when you cheat you don't actually win anything.
I often put it as "you're only cheating yourself."
But I gamed with someone for years, that you had to constantly watch for cheating and 'misremembering a rule/forgetting to remove things,' and he used to play single player shooter games on God-Mode, I shit you not.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 01:56:42 PM
I often put it as "you're only cheating yourself."
But I gamed with someone for years, that you had to constantly watch for cheating and 'misremembering a rule/forgetting to remove things,' and he used to play single player shooter games on God-Mode, I shit you not.
While you are absolutely true, if a person cheats I don't want them in my game. If I am running it I already have enough to keep track of, a cheating player is just one more thing I don't need to deal with.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 02:00:56 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 01:56:42 PM
I often put it as "you're only cheating yourself."
But I gamed with someone for years, that you had to constantly watch for cheating and 'misremembering a rule/forgetting to remove things,' and he used to play single player shooter games on God-Mode, I shit you not.
While you are absolutely true, if a person cheats I don't want them in my game. If I am running it I already have enough to keep track of, a cheating player is just one more thing I don't need to deal with.
I went through many years of 'any warm body to round the group,' and club play. But years ago I made the decision to only game with people I actually enjoyed playing with.
Which has DRASTCIALLY curtailed my gaming, but what I get is higher quality, and I no longer burst blood vessels.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 02:04:23 PM
I went through many years of 'any warm body to round the group,' and club play. But years ago I made the decision to only game with people I actually enjoyed playing with.
Which has DRASTCIALLY curtailed my gaming, but what I get is higher quality, and I no longer burst blood vessels.
I am sure that if I were running something other than 5e I would have that problem as well. With 5e being so popular and there being more players than DM's, I can replace a problem player quickly.
Luckily I haven't had a problem player since that guy since.
I would say there isn't any scenario where a VTT is worse than a voice chat. People could absolutely get caught up in fiddly UI bits or trying to figure out how to roll the dice or whatever, but none of those are actually mandatory for VTT use. While the generally expected scenario is using the VTT with battle maps and tokens and stuff, some people just display a landing page with their campaign details:
(https://preview.redd.it/7ob0bfcrcpq51.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=6c94239064e53b9dd373be39289d68e6f6891655)
Or a world map with notes:
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cirrahn/foundry-polmap/master/docs/preview.png)
And rather than battle maps, a goodly number of people opt to just display a picture of the scene and some ambient music for mood-setting.
So a longer answer to Pundit: VTT as a rule arbiter and a combat map program can be detrimental if it's a poor fit for the players. But other functions like being a central spot for note keeping, tracking the party's travels, recording encounters and loot, are pretty universally useful entirely apart from any automation or tracking combat. And things like being able to display NPC portraits and play ambient music can be valuable for establishing mood. And in my instance, since I'm self-hosting my VTT, it's online 24/7 so players can log in whenever if they want to check up on campaign notes or update their characters.
Quote from: Valatar on April 12, 2023, 08:12:35 PM
wer to Pundit: VTT as a rule arbiter and a combat map program can be detrimental if it's a poor fit for the players. But other functions like being a central spot for note keeping, tracking the party's travels, recording encounters and loot, are pretty universally useful entirely apart from any automation or tracking combat. And things like being able to display NPC portraits and play ambient music can be valuable for establishing mood.
If all the software does is centralize notes and data recording while allowing the display of images and playing background music, is it still a VTT or something else? I would like to see a tool designed for virtual around the table communication first and whatever goes on the table second. Something that devotes most of the screen space to player video feeds, allows the GM to force push to talk, strongly visually indicates which participant is talking, volume balance the GM over players, and allows the GM to select the principal actor muting all others for the duration of the action declaration. Dice rolling and electronic character sheets could be added later if at all.
Quote from: Wisithir on April 12, 2023, 09:18:00 PMIf all the software does is centralize notes and data recording while allowing the display of images and playing background music, is it still a VTT or something else? I would like to see a tool designed for virtual around the table communication first and whatever goes on the table second. Something that devotes most of the screen space to player video feeds, allows the GM to force push to talk, strongly visually indicates which participant is talking, volume balance the GM over players, and allows the GM to select the principal actor muting all others for the duration of the action declaration. Dice rolling and electronic character sheets could be added later if at all.
I prefer controlled chaos, where everyone can joke and have fun, but I'm sure your orderly and strictly controlled space is a blast too.
A lot of VTTs rely on third-party comms for things like video. Foundry has a pretty basic voice/video setup that can be enabled, but it's extremely barebones. Fantasy Grounds has none at all that I recall. What you describe with video feeds and voice chat controls would generally be done in something like Discord/Google Voice/Skype/etc.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 09:24:06 PM
I prefer controlled chaos, where everyone can joke and have fun, but I'm sure your orderly and strictly controlled space is a blast too.
Chaos is easy, controlling the chaos is hard. In meat-space I have the spatial awareness to identify who is talking and turn to face the speaker to indicate my attention while knowing if I am speaking loud enough to be heard over any extraneous chatter when responding. Not so much in e-space, where table decorum is often lost. Is having a caller or a mapper in a traditional game also too strictly controlled a space?
Quote from: Wisithir on April 12, 2023, 10:24:39 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 09:24:06 PM
I prefer controlled chaos, where everyone can joke and have fun, but I'm sure your orderly and strictly controlled space is a blast too.
Chaos is easy, controlling the chaos is hard. In meat-space I have the spatial awareness to identify who is talking and turn to face the speaker to indicate my attention while knowing if I am speaking loud enough to be heard over any extraneous chatter when responding. Not so much in e-space, where table decorum is often lost. Is having a caller or a mapper in a traditional game also too strictly controlled a space?
If you're autistic, I can understand your need for order, and limiting 'superfluous' stimuli. Or maybe you game with people who don't understand boundaries, and need an excessively firm hand?
In chat, letting people speak when they want, we sometimes have people talk over each other by accident, but it's no big deal, and everyone is relatively courteous and polite, with the added benefit of banter and bawdiness.