Quote from: Christopher Brady;963846What is boils down, Krueger, is that for a lot of people, we're talking two different languages, despite talking about the same game.

It's the difference between simulation and genre.  Earlier D&D dealt frequently with trying to simulate things that PCs would actually need to do to get to the dungeon, survive it and get home. The modules kind of assumed all that stuff was handled by the GM and didn't need detailing.  Part of that "Well of course, our audience will know that already." mindset. Finding out a lot of people didn't know that, is in part what prompted a lot of the DMG as well as the Survival Guides.

Later D&D is a genre-emulation game, where the genre is D&D itself.  There are still setting and player assumptions, but of a different kind.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963886It's the difference between simulation and genre.  Earlier D&D dealt frequently with trying to simulate things that PCs would actually need to do to get to the dungeon, survive it and get home. The modules kind of assumed all that stuff was handled by the GM and didn't need detailing.  Part of that "Well of course, our audience will know that already." mindset. Finding out a lot of people didn't know that, is in part what prompted a lot of the DMG as well as the Survival Guides.

Later D&D is a genre-emulation game, where the genre is D&D itself.  There are still setting and player assumptions, but of a different kind.

Which is why Later D&D is so shallow and often makes little sense, it's so disconnected from the why and is just following the forms because that's what the thing it's derived from did.

Quote from: Kiero;963950Which is why Later D&D is so shallow and often makes little sense, it's so disconnected from the why and is just following the forms because that's what the thing it's derived from did.

It's as shallow as it's source material (Lord of The Rings, Three Hearts and Three Lions, Conan of Cimmeria...)

Quote from: CRKrueger;963843They weren't necessarily taking all those people "into a dungeon", they were taking all those people on an Expedition.

That's what I do when I play. Generally we have the first adventure just as the PCs, with maybe just a magic-user getting himself one man-at-arms as a sort of personal bodyguard. Once we do our first adventure and get some cash, we'll have a crew something like,

- 12 men-at-arms
- cook & steward
- ostler & stableboy
- 3 wagons with 6 horses (one pulls, the other rests by walking along beside)

On arrival at the dungeon, a camp is set up outside. The men-at-arms work also as labourers, cutting down local trees for spikes and/or gathering stones or digging trenches, and we put up tents and make a small fortified encampment - helps deal with wandering monsters and retribution from anyone in the dungeon. The cook and steward set about cooking good meals for all - it's rarely covered in rules, but common sense suggests that a fresh-cooked meal is better for health and morale than jerky, hardtack and water. The next morning, 6 of the men-at-arms remain to guard the camp while the other 6 go into the dungeon with the PCs. If it's more than one foray in, we rotate through the men-at-arms.

So assuming 4 PCs, we travel around as a group of 20, and 10 of them go into the dungeon.

The men-at-arms aren't simply 1d6 HP meat shields. It's better to have 3 men-at-arms with AC3-5 than 12 men-at-arms with AC10. The latter do more damage, but the former survive better - and if lots die it's hard to recruit new ones! And remember, right from from level 1 we're dreaming of level 9 and building a stronghold, when we hope to have built a reputation as a lord who takes care of their own. So we equip them in mail and large shields, and they form shield walls when they can. In addition to their pay, they receive all copper pieces found as their share of the loot, plus other bonuses if they do things like carry a fallen PC out of the dungeon.

In the current campaign I'm running, the PCs started off by scorning men-at-arms. But then each time they went into the dungeon one of them fell below 0HP and had to spend a week recovering while those in the dungeon prepared more traps etc, so they've gradually started hiring and are now doing much better.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963968It's as shallow as it's source material (Lord of The Rings, Three Hearts and Three Lions, Conan of Cimmeria...)

That was the original inspiration.  At this point D&D is almost 100% self-referential, except for inspiration from MMOs in the last iteration.

You can argue the same about Shadowrun or a White Wolf game, or any RPG that's been around for decades.  Hell, even Traveller.  They just do it to lesser extents.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963988That was the original inspiration.  At this point D&D is almost 100% self-referential, except for inspiration from MMOs in the last iteration.

You can argue the same about Shadowrun or a White Wolf game, or any RPG that's been around for decades.  Hell, even Traveller.  They just do it to lesser extents.

I do.  No snark.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963968It's as shallow as it's source material (Lord of The Rings, Three Hearts and Three Lions, Conan of Cimmeria...)

You'll find no disagreement from me; I find history a much better inspiration-source than fiction.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;963981In the current campaign I'm running, the PCs started off by scorning men-at-arms. But then each time they went into the dungeon one of them fell below 0HP and had to spend a week recovering while those in the dungeon prepared more traps etc, so they've gradually started hiring and are now doing much better.

And last night we played again, 3 PCs (F3, C2 and MU2) with 2 NPC henchmen (Paladin 2 and F2) went in to the dungeon with 3 men-at-arms. They set off an alarm trap which went for a few rounds, and brought in against them two squads of 2HD warrior with 11 1HD warriors, accompanied by an orcish 5th level magic-user. They slew all of them and the wizard fled by way of rope trick, and the PCs lost only one of the men-at-arms.

Shield walls, oil, well-timed use of sleep, having everyone well-armed and armoured - tactics work.

Achilles was magically invulnerable to all attacks except on his ankles, and he still took a whole army with him.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;964194And last night we played again, 3 PCs (F3, C2 and MU2) with 2 NPC henchmen (Paladin 2 and F2) went in to the dungeon with 3 men-at-arms. They set off an alarm trap which went for a few rounds, and brought in against them two squads of 2HD warrior with 11 1HD warriors, accompanied by an orcish 5th level magic-user. They slew all of them and the wizard fled by way of rope trick, and the PCs lost only one of the men-at-arms.

Shield walls, oil, well-timed use of sleep, having everyone well-armed and armoured - tactics work.

Achilles was magically invulnerable to all attacks except on his ankles, and he still took a whole army with him.

Now this sounds like an awesome game.