So, if you go to pundit's blog you'll see some rather interesting claims about how FFG are doing with the 40k & WFRP licences. I have no idea how trustworthy these claims are or how they've been blown out of proportion or whatever or where they've come from.
Is this the work of a disenchanted playtester or from the belly of the beast itself? Is it a "Koltar claim?"
Quote from: One Horse Town;342793So, if you go to pundit's blog you'll see some rather interesting claims about how FFG are doing with the 40k & WFRP licences. I have no idea how trustworthy these claims are or how they've been blown out of proportion or whatever or where they've come from.
Is this the work of a disenchanted playtester or from the belly of the beast itself? Is it a "Koltar claim?"
Has Pundit ever had any shyness about repeating poorly sourced claims that reinforce his prejudices?
A graph of Amazon sales data is not attached because those don't seem to work. Oh well. If you could see it, you'd see Rogue Trader seems to be stomping Pathfinder's core rules for at least the period for which I have data (October onward). Pathfinder probably hit the sales charts earlier but even so, that doesn't look like a failure to me.
That post has been linked over on the FFG forums and is causing a bit of a stir. A couple people have heard of the Pundint, they all think he's a blow hard ass, most people though never have and could care less. Which seems about par for the course for anyone on the internet.
As to any truth to his anon sources comments. It's like a fortune cookie, open to interpretation and just vague enough to be both true or false.
Whatever the reality, it's certainly an interesting possibility.
Quote from: kryyst;342815That post has been linked over on the FFG forums and is causing a bit of a stir. A couple people have heard of the Pundint, they all think he's a blow hard ass, most people though never have and could care less. Which seems about par for the course for anyone on the internet.
As to any truth to his anon sources comments. It's like a fortune cookie, open to interpretation and just vague enough to be both true or false.
Whatever the reality, it's certainly an interesting possibility.
Interesting. I would have a look, but A) Just loading the forum takes ages and indeed usually doesn't load at all and B) no matter how many times i log in i never seem to be able to post anything. The place is useless.
I will reiterate my comment on Pundit's post here.
The idea that Rogue Trader is lacking the market penetration of Dark Heresy seems a bit far-fetched; at the very least, it seems too early to tell. Certainly, on a purely anecdotal level, just about everyone I know who's into Dark Heresy or 40K have picked up Rogue Trader, or intend to pick it up.
I can much more easily accept the notion that WFRP3 isn't getting many preorders. The idea seems controversial at best, and most WFRP fans I know downright hate the concept. That said, in theory FFG are going for a different audience (or a wider audience) with this edition, and I'm not sure how many of those people are really likely to preorder, or even know that the game exists.
As far as this launch event is concerned, this is the first time I've heard of any such event. Does anyone know if it's real or something this "source" made up?
Quote from: Warthur;342818As far as this launch event is concerned, this is the first time I've heard of any such event. Does anyone know if it's real or something this "source" made up?
Nope, it's real. List of participating stores here (http://app.fantasyflightgames.com/wfrp-prerelease-stores.html). In my area, out of the four stores with event space, three stores are hosting the launch event. Only two hosted WotC's Weekend in the Realms last weekend. This is purely local data and shouldn't be extrapolated, of course. Someone more industrious than I can take that list and crossreference it against the WitR list.
Quote from: Warthur;342818I can much more easily accept the notion that WFRP3 isn't getting many preorders. The idea seems controversial at best, and most WFRP fans I know downright hate the concept. That said, in theory FFG are going for a different audience (or a wider audience) with this edition, and I'm not sure how many of those people are really likely to preorder, or even know that the game exists.
On one hand, I never preorder anything. On the other hand, WFRP 3e sounds pretty reasonable at Amazon's price (something like $62) so I am much more likely to pick it up now.
Quote from: Warthur;342818The idea that Rogue Trader is lacking the market penetration of Dark Heresy seems a bit far-fetched
You realize that as recent as 3 days ago documentation went online that their company went from no. 2 with DH on the previous ranking
off the radar? As in - while Pathfinder has reached the heights of market penetration,
Rogue Trader doesn't even receive honorary mention?
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/16202.html
As if by magic i've been able to view the FFG forums for the first time in weeks...
Oh, Pundit, the big cheese has posted to the corresponding thread over there saying you're a big porky-pier and slandering his company and staff members...(it's libel on the net innit?)
Does anyone have the link?
RPGPundit
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=3&efidt=230401
Quote from: Windjammer;342842You realize that as recent as 3 days ago documentation went online that their company went from no. 2 with DH on the previous ranking off the radar? As in - while Pathfinder has reached the heights of market penetration, Rogue Trader doesn't even receive honorary mention?
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/16202.html
If those statistics are compiled in the same way as those which Koltar used to provide us (and I used to turn into pretty charts) way back when, then they mean
nothing. About the only thing that stayed constant in those charts from
month to month was that D&D was on the top, and World of Darkness was in the top 5. Everything else was in flux. I can only assume that the same would be true of quarterly statistics.
Also, "Q3 2009" would imply that those statistics were compiled
before Rogue Trader was released, so it would be fucking impossible for RT to appear there.
Quote from: Thanlis;342838Nope, it's real. List of participating stores here (http://app.fantasyflightgames.com/wfrp-prerelease-stores.html). In my area, out of the four stores with event space, three stores are hosting the launch event. Only two hosted WotC's Weekend in the Realms last weekend. This is purely local data and shouldn't be extrapolated, of course. Someone more industrious than I can take that list and crossreference it against the WitR list.
Well, damn. I check the FFG page every day and I never even saw that. Then again, I normally don't read their news stories until they especially grab me, I just glance at the front page and then go to the "upcoming games" section.
I think there is a 100 err 99.95 reasons why WFRG will not do well in the market.
Quote from: estar;342859I think there is a 100 err 99.95 reasons why WFRG will not do well in the market.
#1 reason: nerdrage
QuoteHe likes to think of himself as an academic or scholar of RPGs, with a professorial knowledge of all things RP (which is a pretty pathetic concept all on its own) but his only true academic trait is his snotty elitist attitude toward the rest of us, the 'unsophisticated RPG masses.'
It is because of him that my mind automatically turns off when anyone mentions The Forge...
haha what?!
The biggest problem for FFG with WFRP 3.0 is that the existing fanbase, if you can use the internet as any sort of guideline, is generally not enthused about 3.0 and is generally voicing that they won't be jumping on board.
So already they are losing a portion of their existing fanbase with the move to 3.0. That's fine, they say. They'll make up for that loss and more by picking up new customers, the logic being this new boardgame component based system will apply to a much wider audience. Kudo's for that idea.
The problem though seems to be that this much wider board game loving (but not alwo WFRP 2 loving) audience doesn't know of the existence of Warhammer Fantasy Role Play. So they are brokering on an audience of people that perhaps care less about RPG's to drop $100 on an RPG that they likely have never heard of before.
I'll even go further into the local retail space that I have access to. In every Hobby store that I've ever been in they usually have table top mini-games in one section, board games in another section and RPG's in another. The mini-game people go into their area, the board game crowd lingers in theirs and the RPG crowd heads to theirs. No obviously some people browse every where. But for WFRP 3.0 to get into the hands of this new wave of players it'll have to be stocked along with the board games or those people won't even see it.
There is one other crowd they hope to swallow the 3.0 pill with is Fantasy Flight Games fans, that surf their site and are of course not WFRP 2.0 fans.
They seem to be hinging on a lot for this game to get a new foot hold into the RPG market place. Lets also forget that previously Warhammer Fantasy, Dark Heresy and their books also retailed in books stores like Chapters & Barnes and Nobles. This new version likely isn't going to show up there so they are losing another set of potential customers.
He's gone awfully quiet, so it must be shit. Still, look at all those page views...
Quote from: Windjammer;342842You realize that as recent as 3 days ago documentation went online that their company went from no. 2 with DH on the previous ranking off the radar? As in - while Pathfinder has reached the heights of market penetration, Rogue Trader doesn't even receive honorary mention?
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/16202.html
And I'll let their own site answer as to just how useful this "data" is:
QuoteThe charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers.
I kinda WANT Pundy to be right for once.
60 dollar RPG corebooks need to die in a car fire, and 100 dollar RPGs that totally crap on a previous edition need to suffer even worse fates. Like watching swap.avi or something.
FFG has some good products. Though their best game (Wings of War) they are really only a translator for.
But they did the dumb and they need to be punished for the dumb.
Come on you Ron Paul types! Let the free market correct the stupid for once.
Oh wait. I just sold a 100 dollar toy I bought for 50 for over 260 bucks and its like 2 years old.
WE'RE DOOMED! *C3P0*
Quote from: Captain Rufus;342882I kinda WANT Pundy to be right for once.
Yeah, me too. There was nothing wrong with WFRP 2e and there was still a lot of books that could have been written for it yet. I just watched their latest promo video for 3e and I'm not impressed with it (although I am impressed with their marketing - more companies should be using videos and youtube to promote and explain their games). This new game looks like it's fiddly as hell with all it's special dice and cards and tracks and character cards and group cards and on and on. I really can't see how that tracking all this shit is going to do anything else than make you feel like you're playing a complicated boardgame. I'd give it a try if someone in my group actually bought it (slim chance of that) or at a con, but I really, really doubt that I'd like it.
Quote from: kryyst;342865if you can use the internet as any sort of guideline,
No, you can't. Web chatter is meaningless.
Quote from: kryyst;342865The problem though seems to be that this much wider board game loving (but not alwo WFRP 2 loving) audience doesn't know of the existence of Warhammer Fantasy Role Play.
Maybe.
But the Warhammer brand is extremely strong, far beyond the RPG. The novels and the computer games have reached people who have never played a RPG.
And FFG has succesfully sold several RPG / boardgame hybrids - Doom, Descent, Android - so they are betting they can get those boardgamers to take one step to the right and the RPGers to take one step left.
Quote from: kryyst;342865Lets also forget that previously Warhammer Fantasy, Dark Heresy and their books also retailed in books stores like Chapters & Barnes and Nobles. This new version likely isn't going to show up there so they are losing another set of potential customers.
Why would B&N not sell the Warhammer box set? Sounds like perfect "high end holiday present" and they can table it with Warhammer novels for the Xmas shoppers.
Quote from: Spinachcat;342908No, you can't. Web chatter is meaningless.
Maybe.
But the Warhammer brand is extremely strong, far beyond the RPG. The novels and the computer games have reached people who have never played a RPG.
And FFG has succesfully sold several RPG / boardgame hybrids - Doom, Descent, Android - so they are betting they can get those boardgamers to take one step to the right and the RPGers to take one step left.
Why would B&N not sell the Warhammer box set? Sounds like perfect "high end holiday present" and they can table it with Warhammer novels for the Xmas shoppers.
I'd be very surprised if UK bookshops (ie waterstones) started selling this. I cannot see something as complex and expensive as this selling in that way.
They really need tog et the product into GW but that will never happen.
It's neither boardgame or rpg and so it has no real home. Only rpg stockists are likely to sell it and how likely are they to do so given the price tag in this (or indeed any) economic climate?
It's a bit lame to wish FFG to fail because you don't like what you've seen of the game so far. v3 isn't Forge misery tourism or anything.
I'm sad because it's leaving me behind, both financially and spiritually.
Quote from: One Horse Town;342923I'm sad because it's leaving me behind, both financially and spiritually.
Financially I can see your point, but spiritually?
Quote from: jadrax;342925Financially I can see your point, but spiritually?
I was struggling for a word and didn't feel that ideologically was apt enough. Perhaps emotionally is a better word. WFRP was my first printed work, so it developing in this way is emotive to me.
Quote from: One Horse Town;342927I was struggling for a word and didn't feel that ideologically was apt enough. Perhaps emotionally is a better word. WFRP was my first printed work, so it developing in this way is emotive to me.
Fair enough.
Quote from: SpinachcatNo, you can't. Web chatter is meaningless.
Web chatter isn't meaningless. It's not any kind of direct data that you can calculate. But it does give the designers a feel for their fans. FFG certainly is feeling some kind of pressure. They are releasing these PR video's to try and sell their idea.
Quote from: SpinchatMaybe.
But the Warhammer brand is extremely strong, far beyond the RPG. The novels and the computer games have reached people who have never played a RPG.
And FFG has succesfully sold several RPG / boardgame hybrids - Doom, Descent, Android - so they are betting they can get those boardgamers to take one step to the right and the RPGers to take one step left.
The Warhamemr brand is far stronger outside of the RPG. The RPG is probably it's weakest element. The RPG has been so weak in the past that typically GW doesn't even retail it in it's own stores. GW pushes out the IP but they don't cross promote other products in their retail space. That could changes with WFRP 3.0, I don't know. I'm only judging on past behavior.
FFG's other hybrid games are still board games. If they market WFRP 3.0 as an RPG the bulk of people not interested in RPG's aren't suddenly going to be interested in RPG's regardless of the components and a $100 price tag isn't going to make for may impulse buys.
Quote from: SpinchatWhy would B&N not sell the Warhammer box set? Sounds like perfect "high end holiday present" and they can table it with Warhammer novels for the Xmas shoppers.
How bout for the same reasons that they don't carry Doom the board game on their shelves. Note - I'm talking retail locations not web locations as people can't search a web store for products they don't already know about. Which is crucial if you want to get new people to buy your product. It has to be on shelves where people that aren't already looking for it are going to find it.
Quote from: kryyst;342937The Warhamemr brand is far stronger outside of the RPG. The RPG is probably it's weakest element. The RPG has been so weak in the past that typically GW doesn't even retail it in it's own stores. GW pushes out the IP but they don't cross promote other products in their retail space. That could changes with WFRP 3.0, I don't know. I'm only judging on past behavior.
Quoted for truth. My jaw actually dropped when I saw a teeny, tiny, miniscule little side bar on the news pages of White Dwarf plugging Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy products a while back; normally GW is reluctant to acknowledge that the RPG line exists.
Quote from: kryyst;342937The Warhamemr brand is far stronger outside of the RPG. The RPG is probably it's weakest element. The RPG has been so weak in the past that typically GW doesn't even retail it in it's own stores.
This isn't historically accurate. WFRP _was_ a powerhouse of a game and GW a powerhouse of an RPG seller. It all went tits up following WD100 when the accountants seem to have taken over by force.
Quote from: GRIM;342958This isn't historically accurate. WFRP _was_ a powerhouse of a game and GW a powerhouse of an RPG seller. It all went tits up following WD100 when the accountants seem to have taken over by force.
True, from about 1986 - 1992ish WFRP was significant according to GW. Then they sold the license to Hogshead games in 1995 iir and the RPG was IP holder for GW and nothing more. Even with the significance of WFRP 2 GW didn't push or support it at all. Now with FFG trying to do something significantly different with the line and Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Death Watch(whatever) all out and in the works. GW still doesn't even tip their hats.
So yeah I absolutely question the marketing concept that FFG is really going to be able to get WFRP 3.0 into the hands of the people that should be the targets for this kind of game. Namely Warhammer Mini-Gamers and GW fans in general. That if done correctly could be a huge target audience.
Quote from: kryyst;342937FFG's other hybrid games are still board games. If they market WFRP 3.0 as an RPG the bulk of people not interested in RPG's aren't suddenly going to be interested in RPG's regardless of the components and a $100 price tag isn't going to make for may impulse buys.
The nearest thing to WFRP 3 in FFG's stables is Descent. That is not a casual, pick-up boardgame. Its fans devote lots of time and money buying and setting up expansions. They even have campaign books to link a long series of games into an ongoing campaign. Descent is a kind of mini-hobby unto itself.
With the proven market of people who buy games similar to WFRP 3 in cost and committment, and the Warhammer setting and name to go along with it, this isn't the huge gamble some are making it out to be.
If you don't like it, fine. You still have the old games to play. I mean how many WFRP 2 players have come close to exhausting all the material from that edition yet? This new edition has the merit of being a product that buyers are almost certainly going to actually play a few times, rather than stick up on a shelf along with unplayed copies of Lair of the Liche Lord and Barony of the Damned.
QuoteHow bout for the same reasons that they don't carry Doom the board game on their shelves. Note - I'm talking retail locations not web locations as people can't search a web store for products they don't already know about. Which is crucial if you want to get new people to buy your product. It has to be on shelves where people that aren't already looking for it are going to find it.
I was browsing in my local Chapters (Canadian equivalent of Borders) the other day, and came a cross a big stack of the Agricola boardgame. That's an $80 boardgame that is by no means simple to learn or play.
Quote from: One Horse Town;342927I was struggling for a word and didn't feel that ideologically was apt enough. Perhaps emotionally is a better word. WFRP was my first printed work, so it developing in this way is emotive to me.
WFRP was the first time I used a published campaign from start to finish without any major changes. It defined a period of gaming, where not only did I learn a lot about my GMing style it also was a time when I gamed with a group of people who don't game anymore. It's emotive for me too. I got nothing against the
3E and hope it resonates with others like the earlier edition(s) did for me. But I'm leaving this particular edition.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: GRIM;342958This isn't historically accurate. WFRP _was_ a powerhouse of a game and GW a powerhouse of an RPG seller. It all went tits up following WD100 when the accountants seem to have taken over by force.
ah the glory days.
It seemed that, although the storm clouds loomed for a while prior, it went from excellent rpg organ (memories, sweet memories, of a simpler time) to wargame (ie warhammer0 magazine almost overnight.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;343049ah the glory days.
It seemed that, although the storm clouds loomed for a while prior, it went from excellent rpg organ (memories, sweet memories, of a simpler time) to wargame (ie warhammer0 magazine almost overnight.
It pretty much was overnight, that is the point when Games Workshop was bought by Citadel.
Round 2:
http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/716251894/item/
That's what I didn't get about the FFG response (not to mention their hardcore fanbase, which seems to be worse than even Paizo's). They vilified Pundit as if he had been making the reported claims instead of just reporting them. Very poor show on FFG's side, and the sort of defensive behaviour usually associated with people in a tight situation.
See, before D&D 4E's release, Mearls (http://mearls.livejournal.com/145099.html) wrote a live-journal entry in which he ridiculed some of the negative response the game had garnered including its being diagnosed as 'too boardgamey'. Later on, Mearls retrospectively reported (http://mearls.livejournal.com/59474.html) the feelings at the office as follows: "With the PH 1 there was a lot of stark terror that everyone would hate the new game. That tempered everything - there was a lot more tension and waiting."
Without doubt the highlight of the thread over on the FFG forum is that some people think that RPGPundit is a founder member of the Forge:
"if it is a game that doesn't fit his snooty opinion of what makes a good RPG (by the standards of his l33t Forgist philosophy)"
and
"It is because of him that my mind automatically turns off when anyone mentions The Forge..."
... But wait... the chap that says this also says he has personal experience of dealing with RPGPundit. What if it's true! Perhaps RPGPundit and this forum are all a front for some weird Forgist plot. Come on RPGPundit, own up – you are in fact Ron Edwards, aren't you!
Quote from: Windjammer;343051Later on, Mearls retrospectively reported (http://mearls.livejournal.com/59474.html) the feelings at the office as follows: "With the PH 1 there was a lot of stark terror that everyone would hate the new game. That tempered everything - there was a lot more tension and waiting."
This is a different situation. I don't think the folks are FFG are especially concerned whether fans of WFRP 2 buy the game. They're going for a different, new audience.
Quote from: Haffrung;343080This is a different situation. I don't think the folks are FFG are especially concerned whether fans of WFRP 2 buy the game. They're going for a different, new audience.
This oft quoted factoid still seems unlikely given that all their marketing seems aimed at reassuring the old guard. If they where after a new audience they would have videos explaining what RPGs are and why you will like them if you board games, not why there they are evolving the RPG to new levels without losing anything from the old version.
From the blog (I can't be bothered to resister for Xanga):
QuoteOf course, I do have some serious concerns about why they're turning WFRP into a Descent-based Boardgame and destroying the excellent RPG that was already there.
How does making a new game destroy an existing game? Are your 2E books broken? Have you run out of published material for 2E to use in your game? Has your imagination run dry?
Also, regarding libel:
Pundit is wrong. You are legally responsible for claims you publish, whether you made the claims or not. Otherwise, newspapers could publish an anonymous letter to the editor claiming Barak Obama raped the author's sister, or asserting that using Colgate toothpaste causes birth defects.
Quote from: Haffrung;342968The nearest thing to WFRP 3 in FFG's stables is Descent. That is not a casual, pick-up boardgame. Its fans devote lots of time and money buying and setting up expansions. They even have campaign books to link a long series of games into an ongoing campaign. Descent is a kind of mini-hobby unto itself.
With the proven market of people who buy games similar to WFRP 3 in cost and committment, and the Warhammer setting and name to go along with it, this isn't the huge gamble some are making it out to be.
So you're saying WFRP 3 is similar to Descent in what way - exactly. Is it that they both are in boxes that cost around $99. Are you saying it's similar in that they each approach the fence with Descent on the board game side and WFRP 3 on the rpg? Perhaps you're suggesting that FFG is targeting their own Descent market in hopes of selling them WFRP 3.0 and cannibalizing those fans. Perhaps you are suggesting that people who love Descent may want something more and that v3 is really Descent 2.0.
Oddly enough. That is one of the major suggestions people have been saying they should have done. Instead of taking this rules base and making a Warhammer game out of it. They instead should have taken the rules base and made a Descent RPG or Runebound RPG.
After all those markets are already more inclined to this style of mechanics and those players are perhaps already looking for something more to tackle in those worlds. In the case of Runebound they are already expanding it with another Conquest/Adventure style game (which does look amazing) that is also $99. But more importantly they could have put out this rpg product into a new world without pissing off an existing fan base. WFRP 3.0 is horribly targeted product.
Quote from: HaffrungIf you don't like it, fine. You still have the old games to play. I mean how many WFRP 2 players have come close to exhausting all the material from that edition yet? This new edition has the merit of being a product that buyers are almost certainly going to actually play a few times, rather than stick up on a shelf along with unplayed copies of Lair of the Liche Lord and Barony of the Damned.
Your point? It's not that I or any WFRP 2 players have exhausted that game. If that's even possible. The fact is we would still rather see more out for it. The bulk isn't even opposed to a new edition, we were even expecting it when it went to FFG.
We are opposed to what they are trying to pander out as a new experience, one that in almost no ways is recognizable from previous editions. Or perhaps even put out a game that covers the same grounds as past editions. 3.0 is a huge cash grab for them if it plays out. If people have every complained in the past about the splat book growth some other systems have had. 3.0 has the potential to make those complains seem meaningless.
Quote from: kryyst;343088Oddly enough. That is one of the major suggestions people have been saying they should have done. Instead of taking this rules base and making a Warhammer game out of it. They instead should have taken the rules base and made a Descent RPG or Runebound RPG.
But the Warhammer world is very popular among boardgamers too. Chaos in the Old World is a big hit for FGG.
Quote3.0 is a huge cash grab for them if it plays out. If people have every complained in the past about the splat book growth some other systems have had. 3.0 has the potential to make those complains seem meaningless.
I don't understand what you mean by 'cash grab'. Are FFG going to take money from people who don't want to part with it? Yeah, they're trying to make money. They're a business - and a rather successful one when it comes to gaming.
If there are some fuckups out there who feel compelled to buy every book published for a game, all the while resenting the company and complaining about it afterwords, then they're simply idiots. That fact that this kind of compulsion/resentment seems so common among RPG geeks makes me think the sterotype of maladjusted, deeply unhappy losers may be true.
Quote from: Haffrung;343083Also, regarding libel:
Pundit is wrong. You are legally responsible for claims you publish, whether you made the claims or not.
Also does America have an extradition treaty with Uruguay, for the offense of libel or civil cases?
Quote from: Haffrung;343089If there are some fuckups out there who feel compelled to buy every book published for a game, all the while resenting the company and complaining about it afterwords, then they're simply idiots. That fact that this kind of compulsion/resentment seems so common among RPG geeks makes me think the sterotype of maladjusted, deeply unhappy losers may be true.
Possibly the same type of people who like to whine and complain about stuff like Microsoft, rap music, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc ...
Quote from: Windjammer;343051They vilified Pundit as if he had been making the reported claims instead of just reporting them.
That's what you're doing when you report on a rumor or whatnot without a attribution.
Seanchai
Well, I pre-ordered it (at a reasonable price on Amazon). I'll take a look at it when I get it and decide what I think of the new edition and whether it's gone into board game land then.
Seanchai
Yeh same here just ordered a copy from amazon.co.uk so hopefully i'l be able to play it sometime during december(since i dont think there suppliers will ship enough copies for the day of release), interesting to note that my current regular group is 3 members and myself as gm so the boxset is the perfect size for my group which alot of rpg's tend not to be built for without some work.
I also have an out if the game isnt for my group as a friend of mine said he'll buy it from me if it dosent work out.
Quote from: Windjammer;343051That's what I didn't get about the FFG response (not to mention their hardcore fanbase, which seems to be worse than even Paizo's). They vilified Pundit as if he had been making the reported claims instead of just reporting them. Very poor show on FFG's side, and the sort of defensive behaviour usually associated with people in a tight situation.
Pundie was the first (and only) person to publish them, which means he's responsible for publicizing them. The innocuous "I was just reporting what someone else said" thing is old and tired. I could send Pundie an anonymous email claiming that WFRP 3 was about to outsell any RPG ever published in the history of man, and you know... he wouldn't print it. Own your own shit, as they say.
Quote from: Haffrung;343089But the Warhammer world is very popular among boardgamers too. Chaos in the Old World is a big hit for FGG.
And around the circle we go. There are two classes of Board gamers those that also play RPG's and those that still think RPG's are too geeky. Those that still snub their noses at RPG's don't generally browse the RPG's and won't know or care of it's existence.
Runebound and Descent are hugely popular, are part of the same established world and they keep spinning off into other genre's. They would also have had absolute freedom of design if they made an RPG for that setting as it's entirely their own IP. It would have made so much more sense. Yet they put it out in Warhammer to try and go after an unknown potential market while alienating part of the existing Warhammer fantasy market. Dumb.
Quote from: HaffrungI don't understand what you mean by 'cash grab'.
If there are some fuckups out there who feel compelled to buy every book published for a game, all the while resenting the company and complaining about it afterwords, then they're simply idiots. That fact that this kind of compulsion/resentment seems so common among RPG geeks makes me think the sterotype of maladjusted, deeply unhappy losers may be true.
Are you trying to be ironic? FFG counts on those fuckups to support them. So fuckups are their targeted audience. I won't argue on their idiocy. But FFG is banking on it. The core game supports 3 players. Sure you can support more players with it, by photocopying cards, sharing counters holding hands - whatever, but it's a hacked on solution.
But for those fuckups that have more then 3 friends here's an expansion for 1 more friend. OH and we'll tease you with a couple iconic careers as well cuz you know if we put just 30 more cards in the original set worlds would collide. The whole design and marketing of 3.0 is based around limited core support and expansion through a similar model as their living card games.
I'm not against them making money. But I can be vocal when they try and pass it off as - but it's good for the game. The entire product is built around a collectible retail model, which will make the splat book bloat other games suffer from seem minor.
This though isn't really their fault or anything new. The whole lets release a partial product now and make them pay for the rest is going on in just about every hobby medium there is now. But it's not something we have to sit around and look forward to or be excited about.
Quote from: Glazer;343072Without doubt the highlight of the thread over on the FFG forum is that some people think that RPGPundit is a founder member of the Forge:
"if it is a game that doesn't fit his snooty opinion of what makes a good RPG (by the standards of his l33t Forgist philosophy)"
and
"It is because of him that my mind automatically turns off when anyone mentions The Forge..."
... But wait... the chap that says this also says he has personal experience of dealing with RPGPundit. What if it's true! Perhaps RPGPundit and this forum are all a front for some weird Forgist plot. Come on RPGPundit, own up – you are in fact Ron Edwards, aren't you!
Or, the dude's just an idiot who's confusing vague memories in his addled-brain.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Thanlis;343103Pundie was the first (and only) person to publish them, which means he's responsible for publicizing them. The innocuous "I was just reporting what someone else said" thing is old and tired. I could send Pundie an anonymous email claiming that WFRP 3 was about to outsell any RPG ever published in the history of man, and you know... he wouldn't print it. Own your own shit, as they say.
If I had any reason to believe you, I might.
RPGPundit
Quote from: kryyst;343108Yet they put it out in Warhammer to try and go after an unknown potential market while alienating part of the existing Warhammer fantasy market. Dumb.
I don't even think them using the Warhammer Background was that dumb, its clearly a good and popular background among board gamers. Its the fact they decided to hedge their bets and try and appeal to the RPG fans that has made it a badly judged product.
You have one set of people complaining that it has got too many bits and other set of people demanding to know when the weapons and equipment will be put on cards.
If you want to launch a new breed of game, it seems dumb to give it the same name as an old one.
Quote from: RPGPundit;343112If I had any reason to believe you, I might.
Bingo! This is exactly why you own the rumors you publish. Which, as far as I know, you do -- it's only some of your supporters who are whining about how it's unfair to blame you for what you reported.
Quote from: Seanchai;343098Well, I pre-ordered it (at a reasonable price on Amazon). I'll take a look at it when I get it and decide what I think of the new edition and whether it's gone into board game land then.
Seanchai
That's not nearly knee-jerk enough for the internet.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;343163That's not nearly knee-jerk enough for the internet.
Yeah. To be honest, the photos and video did make me worry about that it is some weird board game, but I'll wait until I see it before I worry too much about it.
Seanchai
Quote from: jadrax;343119If you want to launch a new breed of game, it seems dumb to give it the same name as an old one.
Tinfoil hat time: it's possible that there is a clause in FFG's licensing agreement with Games Workshop, to the effect that one of the conditions of the licence is that there must be a game known as "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay" available in some form at all times. So, if you have a situation where FFG hate WFRP and want to ditch it in favour of a new Warhammer-themed Descent clone, but they need to put out something with the WFRP title, the obvious solution is to apply the title to the clone and emphasise the roleplaying aspect...
This is almost certainly not the case. But it's fun to speculate.
By-the-way.....
There is nothing essentially wrong with what some of you call a " Cash-grab".
They're a company that has to stay in business. To do that they gotta make a profit or at least attempt to do better than break even.
If the above shown packaging helps them stay in business - then more power to them.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Thanlis;343159Bingo! This is exactly why you own the rumors you publish. Which, as far as I know, you do -- it's only some of your supporters who are whining about how it's unfair to blame you for what you reported.
I reported something that was controversial but plausible; that doesn't mean that I myself claimed that this statement was true. I didn't.
It also means that I don't have to report any nigh-impossible thing that comes along in order to maintain a claim to maintaining a distance from third-party statements I post on my blog.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Warthur;343177Tinfoil hat time: it's possible that there is a clause in FFG's licensing agreement with Games Workshop, to the effect that one of the conditions of the licence is that there must be a game known as "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay" available in some form at all times. So, if you have a situation where FFG hate WFRP and want to ditch it in favour of a new Warhammer-themed Descent clone, but they need to put out something with the WFRP title, the obvious solution is to apply the title to the clone and emphasise the roleplaying aspect...
This is almost certainly not the case. But it's fun to speculate.
Given some of the conditions previously associated with WFRP I wouldn't be that surprised.
Quote from: Haffrung;343082How does making a new game destroy an existing game? Are your 2E books broken?
I will NEVER understand this concept.
I looked at 2e and kept playing 1e. If 3e doesn't wow me, then I will continue to have full tables of players clamoring to play 1e.
Quote from: kryyst;343108The whole design and marketing of 3.0 is based around limited core support and expansion through a similar model as their living card games.
This appears to be true.
I believe they are assuming the GM + 3 players concept will work because if an average group of 5-6 player will probably result in someone buying a 2nd core set and supplying the extra cards/dice to the group.
Quote from: Warthur;343177Tinfoil hat time: it's possible that there is a clause in FFG's licensing agreement with Games Workshop, to the effect that one of the conditions of the licence is that there must be a game known as "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay" available in some form at all times. So, if you have a situation where FFG hate WFRP and want to ditch it in favour of a new Warhammer-themed Descent clone, but they need to put out something with the WFRP title, the obvious solution is to apply the title to the clone and emphasise the roleplaying aspect...
This is almost certainly not the case. But it's fun to speculate.
I don't think its a bad explanation. Although, I thought that the transfer of the RP licences were a pretty much last second give-away as part of the Card and Board game rights.
Quote from: RPGPundit;343112Quote from: Thanlis;343103I could send Pundie an anonymous email claiming that WFRP 3 was about to outsell any RPG ever published in the history of man, and you know... he wouldn't print it.
If I had any reason to believe you, I might.
But then - how would that "reason to believe" manifest if the e-mail came from an
anonymous source?
Quote from: Pundit's blogSaturday, 07 November 2009
Some News From the FFG Grapevine
Here's some information I received from an anonymous source. (...)
What lent this rumour any more credibility than a hypothetical anonymous e-mail by Thanlis?
It's ok everyone, panic over, Pundit just has some new books coming out soon and wanted to make sure folk knew about it.
Well, I got back from the FLGS demo of the game.
I've gone from being mildly interested to being pretty much certain that I'm not the target audience.
The good thing about it was that it did make me more eager to run another WFRP 2nd edition campaign.
Quote from: jdurall;343563Well, I got back from the FLGS demo of the game.
What was it like?
Seanchai
Quote from: jdurall;343563Well, I got back from the FLGS demo of the game.
I've gone from being mildly interested to being pretty much certain that I'm not the target audience.
Tell us why.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Seanchai;343572What was it like?
Quote from: RPGPundit;343645Tell us why.
Well... I come from the school of thought that if a mechanic isn't there to address a need, it's in the way. Or that if you can't explain a mechanic in the context of fiction (or the setting) it's too gamey.
On to the demo... bear in mind that the GM was still trying to wrap his head around the rules so stuff might have been explained incorrectly to us.
First complaint: NO INDEX.
There were a lot of cards. Cards for basic actions anyone can do (melee attack, ranged attack, parry, dodge). It made me wonder why all of the "actions everyone can do" actions printed on a reference card or somewhere? Instead, every action we were all shuffling around wondering "what card is the right one for this action?"
Initiative was handled with a little track and some random tokens representing participants, causing the GM to constantly forget which token represented which monster. I could see no benefit this had over writing the numbers down somewhere, as we rolled to get numbers to start with.
The stance tracker seemed especially peculiar. You have a little track made up of puzzle pieces. One is Neutral and on either side of it the pieces are either Reckless (red) or Cautious (green). The number of each state is determined by your character type, so a less combat-oriented character might be CCCNR (cautious-cautious-... etc.), while a fighty character would be CNRRR.
Every dice pool is more-or-less started with your attribute dice (blue), but depending on your stance, you can switch out a certain number of attribute dice that represent the stance. During combat, it costs a maneuver to move one click over on the stance tracker (or so the GM told us). I guess that meant your personality or something needed to be readjusted within the context of the action? Anyway, the little marker that you set on this track was supposed to be flipped over (one side was color, one was B&W) to indicate you'd taken your turn. I don't think any of us remembered to do this pointless little step.
Then there was the party sheet. Which meant to begin we had to decide what sort of adventuring band we were, from a list of choices like "Brash Young Fools," "Seekers of Justice," "Swords for Hire", etc... (if I recall correctly). Which felt odd. A counter on it was supposed to represent the "Party Stress" level, with corresponding penalties. You could take one of your abilities and socket it into the group sheet, meaning that anyone from your group was somehow able to use osmosis and use that ability. I kept thinking of all of the oddball/loner characters I'd been in adventuring parties with, and wondered how to represent them if their own goals were counter to those of the group.
Then there were the dice... at least seven colors, maybe more.
Blue for attributes
Red for reckless stance
Green for cautious stance
Yellow for skill
Black for armor/defense
Purple for difficulties (environment, etc.)
White for Fortune
Assembling a pool of dice was a case of: "What's your Attribute? Then "What's your stance?" "Do you have the skill trained?" Then "What Difficulties are there?" Then "Does the enemy/target have some form of defense?" then "Do you want to spend a Fortune point?"
Dice results were blank (fail), a warhammer symbol (success), a pair of crossed swords (parry), a Chaos symbol (bane), an hourglass (delay), an Imperial eagle (boon), and a warhammer with a + (success, and roll another yellow dice). There was a skull somewhere, but no one rolled one during the demo so I don't remember its meaning coming up. Sometimes symbols are paired, such as a warhammer and a boon. You roll all of your dice, then the adding/matching/subtracting begins. Banes cancel out boons, parries cancel out successes, boons can be activated for criticals, and skulls meant something bad. Based on the result, you look at the action card and see what symbols you got... so an attack might have results for 1 success (do normal damage), 3 successes (damage +2), two skulls (no idea), etc. Banes/boons might have weird or unexpected bonuses/penalties, such as fumbles, etc.
Damage was done by just handing out little cards for wound points. If it was normal damage, you just kept it face-down. If the wound was a critical, it was turned face-over and you applied the result described on the face. If your combo of wound and critical cards were equal to your wounds total, you were dead. So instead of a simple # to keep track of, if you're not keeping track, you need to re-count the number of cards in damage you've taken. Our GM was handling a group of one Wargor and some Beastmen, which meant that every one of them had a little stack of wound cards to keep track of.
Actions had delays... so if you did one that had a delay, you'd exhaust it and need to put little tokens on it to remove each round until it was able to be used again. Remembering if you'd already taken a token off was a constant headache.
I was surprised they didn't have item/equipment cards.
So many little cards... so much resource management. So many little tokens and widgets gameplay was exactly like one of FFG's boardgames. There's a huge debate of whether it's a boardgame or a RPG. I really don't care what the official stance is... it's a hybrid.
You can easily remove the actual board and win conditions from
Arkham Horror and roleplay with that game, but it's certainly not what I look for in a game.
I suspect that the price point is going to be a turnoff for a casual audience, and the complexity makes it anything but a gateway game. On the other hand, I could easily be wrong.
There's a lot of vitriol out there, but it's escaped me. I'm not really filled with much other than apathy about it at this point. I'd rather they'd have called it
Warhammer Quest 2nd edition, but other than that it certainly won't affect my game plans at all. I'm happy to keep buying stuff for
Dark Heresy and
Rogue Trader, so FFG will get my gaming dollar through that channel.
There's a local, kinda mediocre-but-popular Mexican restaurant in Austin with a dish consisting of six tamales covered in chili. The description in the menu says basically:
"Six tamales covered in chili. Perfect for the sort of person who would like six tamales covered in chili." That's kinda how I feel about
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd edition.
I forgot to mention that action cards were two-sided, with a Reckless/Cautious dichotomy. So the results were slightly skewed on either side based on whatever stance you were in. I think if you were neutral, the side was determined by which stance you favored, but I have no idea what the card side would be if you were equal in Reckless and Cautious on the little track.
So, basically what I'm getting from all this so far is that WFRP3 is basically the Civ: the Boardgame of RPGs.
Big, pretty, full of ludicrously high production values and an expensive and popular license behind it, but the actual mechanics utterly fall apart under even the slightest genuine scrutiny.
What have they done to that beautiful game !
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;343661What have they done to that beautiful game !
Regards,
David R
What, Civ? It bombed, and the maker no longer sells it.
A few years later on of the Civ4 designers slapped together a card game in an afternoon that was a better game, so they gave it away in a box set with the complete series.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;343263But then - how would that "reason to believe" manifest if the e-mail came from an anonymous source?
What lent this rumour any more credibility than a hypothetical anonymous e-mail by Thanlis?
An aside here. Myself and a friend were an anonymous source for a national politics magazine. We provided them with the inside track on a number of student politics issues. While we were always sourced as an anonymous source, we had built up a reputation with them. At first they were hesitant to trust us, and were asking us if we had anything to back up our statement, which we did. After a while they began to trust us and would more or less print based on what we said. All the while we were anonymous sources. Just because something comes from an anonymous e-mail doesn't mean that nothings verified, or there's no relation between publisher and source.
Quote from: J Arcane;343663What, Civ? It bombed, and the maker no longer sells it.
A few years later on of the Civ4 designers slapped together a card game in an afternoon that was a better game, so they gave it away in a box set with the complete series.
Hardy fuckin' har, J.
It's like whoever designed this new edition of
WFRP wants me to hate them. Some people are so damaged that the only way they can truly feel alive is when some anonymous guy on the net hates them. I understand this but why fuck with a totally good game? I mean, that's just evil. What did
WFRP ever do to them ?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;343666What did WFRP ever do to them ?
Regards,
David R
Got dumped in their lap after the bulk of the sales had long since come and gone as an unwanted package deal so they get get access to the far more successful license they actually wanted?
Quote from: J Arcane;343667Got dumped in their lap after the bulk of the sales had long since come and gone as an unwanted package deal so they get get access to the far more successful license they actually wanted?
The sales were long gone? You got some evidence for that, chief...or are you just flappin' your yap? Because quite frankly, that sounds like bullshit.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;343668The sales were long gone? You got some evidence for that, chief...or are you just flappin' your yap? Because quite frankly, that sounds like bullshit.
Number of WFRP2 books published by Black Industries (including reprints): 28
Number of WFRP2 books published by FFG: 2
It's not hard to see who made the most money off that license.
Quote from: J Arcane;343674Number of WFRP2 books published by Black Industries (including reprints): 28
Number of WFRP2 books published by FFG: 2
It's not hard to see who made the most money off that license.
What? The sales were "long gone" because FFG chose to transition to a new edition, not because WFRP 2e was somehow lacking. They wanted to put their own imprint on the game. No big surprise there.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;343675What? The sales were "long gone" because FFG chose to transition to a new edition, not because WFRP 2e was somehow lacking. They wanted to put their own imprint on the game. No big surprise there.
The point is, people keep trying to spin it like WFRP was some smashing success, and FFG is just throwing away money, but that simply isn't the case.
WFRP2 made all it's money for some other company. From FFG's perspective, they inherited a line that had already burned through most of the possible splatbook material already. All the got was a couple sourcebooks at least one of which was already half way through development.
Everyone knows that corebooks are where the money's at, splats are just long tail shelf presence, keeping up the appearance of "support" because for some goddamn reason gamers won't buy a game if the company isn't slapping out a zillion sourcebooks they'll never actually buy.
So who in the hell in their right mind would want to buy into a property AFTER the corebook, and get left pumping out sourcebooks no one will buy for a corebook they didn't even print and aren't getting the money for?
That's the reality of it, and that's why WFRP3.
Quote from: J Arcane;343676That's the reality of it, and that's why WFRP3.
It seems somewhat underdeveloped as an point to me. While it could partially explain why there is a new edition, it goes no where near towards explaining why WFRP3 is such a radical departure. It is not like Green Ronin were not desperate to churn out more of the same.
It seems clear to me that FFG wanted to do this, and somehow claiming that they were forced to do this is just looking to make excuses for their decision - which presumably means you do not accept that decision was a good idea.
Sadly, the more i learn, the more thankful i am that i wasn't asked to contribute. I don't think i could have done after learning the direction that it was going. For the sort of money you get paid for freelancing, you can afford to pick and choose the stuff you do based on what you like, not on how much money goes into the bank.
From what we have seen of it, this seems precisely like the sort of game that has good initial sales for all the bells and whistles, is reported as wildly successful, and is gone and forgotten two years later by which time people figure out they were in love with expensive pieces of painted cardboard.
Also, based on Jdurall's actual play report (thanks!), I must draw attention to how so many of the mechanics seem to be there for their own sake. It is the same self-loving sort of game design that informed the development of 4th edition D&D; design as an ends rather than a means and disassociated mechanics with the flimsiest justification.
Finally, it is good to learn Pundit is really Ron Edwards by night. Ha! :pundit:
Quote from: Melan;343736From what we have seen of it, this seems precisely like the sort of game that has good initial sales for all the bells and whistles, is reported as wildly successful, and is gone and forgotten two years later by which time people figure out they were in love with expensive pieces of painted cardboard.
And to me it seems to be the kind of game that is
predicated on people's love with expensive pieces of painted cardboard to begin with. If said people lose that love, or that love finds better food elsewhere (
Runewars, anyone?), the game's risk of oblivion may become stronger.
Quote from: Melan;343736Also, based on Jdurall's actual play report (thanks!), I must draw attention to how so many of the mechanics seem to be there for their own sake.
Undeniably, yes. But,
Quote from: Melan;343736It is the same self-loving sort of game design that informed the development of 4th edition D&D; design as an ends rather than a means and disassociated mechanics with the flimsiest justification.
you draw the wrong conclusion. The major lesson of D&D 4E, which we now see at work in Warhammer 3rd, is the recognized need (whether real or apparent) to compensate piss poor GMing and less than stellar roleplaying skills by either increasing those portions of the game which "play themselves" reasonably well - or by providing welcome opportunities to direct one's attention to matters far removed from the aforementioned grievances. Do NOT be misled by analogies drawn to FFG's offerings in the world of gaming so far. The real point of comparison here is
Busen Memo (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/353797), whose lack of an equivalent can only be termed a major omission in the world of RPGs so far, and seems now to have met its final form as a set of multi-coloured dice and so much more.
The heroic efforts of
FFG notwithstanding, a set of educated, entertaining, socially apt people you call friends and fellow gamers will always be preferable to painted cardboard in a glossy box. But frankly, there are limits to what can be sold for hundred dollars.
It occurs to me also that the game fails what I'd call the "greasy hands and spilled soda test." As most of the time when we game, people are bringing in food (lunch, dinner, or snacks) and beverages... the risk of damaging valuable components increases dramatically. Spill a Pepsi on game X's character sheet - you're just recopying stuff onto a new sheet. Spill onto the mass of character cards, action cards, counters, etc. that makes up a WFRP3E character, and it is a sad, sad day spent wiping up stuff.
Also, there were these little cardboard boxes for character sheets/cards/chips/tokens, etc. They were very small (about 4"x6") and kind of flimsy, so I guess the intent is that all characters stay with the original game box. I don't know if I'd call that a "weakness" per se, but it's not exactly something I'm inclined to think of as a positive thing.
It occurs to me looking at my post above that I didn't really go into the meat-and-potatoes of the session... but honestly, after two sequential combats totaling three hours of resource management (cards, etc.) there's not much to say.
FFG provided the demo kit, so apparently they wanted the demo players to think it was all about interminable slugfests interspersed with readings from box text.
Based on that in-store demo, I can safely say that none of the three players in it would purchase it. The GM indicated after the game that he was unlikely to do so, and the two game store employees and owner who watched the demo looked skeptical about it.
And it wasn't that we had some onerous or dismal time... it just seemed like it was a dramatic step backwards in improving the bookkeeping-to-fun ratio.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;343668The sales were long gone? You got some evidence for that, chief...or are you just flappin' your yap? Because quite frankly, that sounds like bullshit.
Figures are few and far between in this hobby, so all we have is speculation. But that said, it would seem to fit the usual model if FFG came to WFRP at the tail end of its sales.
It's as close to a solid fact as anything in the industry that the core rulebook of a game line is always going to be the biggest-selling part of the product line. It's only logical, after all - if you care to buy any WFRP, or D&D, or World of Darkness products at all, 99% of the time you're going to get the core book before you start dabbling in the supplements. And the core WFRP2 rulebook had been out for a good long while before FFG picked it up, so they missed out completely on the initial boom of sales after WFRP2 was published. Perhaps they could sell a few more core books as replacements for worn-out ones, or to people coming to the game late, but by and large just about everyone who wanted WFRP2 owned WFRP2 by the time FFG picked it up. Compare with Dark Heresy, where the core rules ended up becoming quite scarce and sought-after in the fallow period between Black Industries being killed off and FFG grabbing the licences.
Windjammer: you may have a point there. Alas, I don't find much inspiration in games that want to save me from gamers. Best of luck to those who like that sort of thing, I guess.
I just have to say that it was tough to get into 2e the last couple of years because both the bestiary and book on magic didn't get any reprints, were hard to find in stores and were going for inflated prices online. The same with the core book.
Quote from: Machinegun Blue;343772I just have to say that it was tough to get into 2e the last couple of years because both the bestiary and book on magic didn't get any reprints, were hard to find in stores and were going for inflated prices online. The same with the core book.
I had the same problem. It was a great game that was hard to find material for.
Quote from: WarthurFigures are few and far between in this hobby, so all we have is speculation. But that said, it would seem to fit the usual model if FFG came to WFRP at the tail end of its sales.
It's as close to a solid fact as anything in the industry that the core rulebook of a game line is always going to be the biggest-selling part of the product line. It's only logical, after all - if you care to buy any WFRP, or D&D, or World of Darkness products at all, 99% of the time you're going to get the core book before you start dabbling in the supplements. And the core WFRP2 rulebook had been out for a good long while before FFG picked it up, so they missed out completely on the initial boom of sales after WFRP2 was published. Perhaps they could sell a few more core books as replacements for worn-out ones, or to people coming to the game late, but by and large just about everyone who wanted WFRP2 owned WFRP2 by the time FFG picked it up. Compare with Dark Heresy, where the core rules ended up becoming quite scarce and sought-after in the fallow period between Black Industries being killed off and FFG grabbing the licences.
That "solid fact" might be a
general rule, but it is not a
universal rule. Games like
Call of Cthulhu and
Rifts haven't changed much over the decades, and they still sell better than most games. Companies need to start thinking more about the
long-term health of their game lines.
FFG should have just come out with a new
WFRP corebook with identical or mostly-identical game mechanics. If they wanted to put their own imprint on the game, they should have put in entirely new art, flavor text, and adventure module material in order to reintroduce the game to a new generation of gamers. Heck, they should have created a boxed set (with
WFRP 2e mechanics) that included dice, character sheets, maps, and other fun stuff. The game has only been out a few years, and there are always options other than nuking a game line, and replacing it with an entirely different game.
Quote from: MelanWindjammer: you may have a point there. Alas, I don't find much inspiration in games that want to save me from gamers. Best of luck to those who like that sort of thing, I guess.
I agree. Let's not "save games from gamers". That isn't the answer here.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;343788I agree. Let's not "save games from gamers". That isn't the answer here.
Casual self destruction of the pen-and-paper rpg business.
Wonder what's the average age of D&D players these days, or any other pen-and-paper rpg for that matter.
Quote from: ggroy;343790Wonder what's the average age of D&D players these days, or any other pen-and-paper rpg for that matter.
"too fucking old"
Or as my brother used to say:
"between twenty and death"
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;343788I had the same problem. It was a great game that was hard to find material for.
It wasn't a huge problem for me because I got started on 2e fairly early on. Later on, I noticed a distinct lack of core books in stores and recall people complaining about not being able to find certain books. The latest books were always well stocked though.
It's amazing how many people are saying that after a while you can do without the cards and just make notes on your character sheet.
Why do i need the fucking cards in the first place then!!
Quote from: One Horse Town;343802It's amazing how many people are saying that after a while you can do without the cards and just make notes on your character sheet.
Why do i need the fucking cards in the first place then!!
You need them so you can pay the hundred bucks!
Quote from: One Horse Town;343802It's amazing how many people are saying that after a while you can do without the cards and just make notes on your character sheet.
Why do i need the fucking cards in the first place then!!
I feel your pain.
Oddly enough though, I think it would have been cool if
FFG had developed a boxed set for
WFRP 2e that included a series of cards listing the effects of critical hits, as well as cards for talents, spells, trappings, and even cards for random encounters. That stuff can sometimes be great, but I also want to be able to easily run the game without these fiddly bits. I guess I'm confused because the core of
WFRP 3E is so radically different from previous editions that I don't recognize it any more, and I don't feel like I can replicate the great experiences I had with
WFRP 2E. I'd still like to check this out, but I just don't feel myself getting too excited about it.
And I also don't like dice pools. :(
Quote from: jadrax;343723It seems somewhat underdeveloped as an point to me. While it could partially explain why there is a new edition, it goes no where near towards explaining why WFRP3 is such a radical departure.
Lots of fiddly bits and custom dice as a measure against piracy and filesharing?