You can always treat range bands as ranges.  So, if you're ten yards from your target you're close.  Sure there's edge cases but I've never seen a truly fluid system where there weren't.  I may have to integrate one into The Arcane Confabulation (which had range bands and abstract movement at one point).  It'd mean another table but the increments would be fluid and consistent.  Adapting movement is a little harder but if you can go one, two, or three range bands, you can equate each speed to the size of the range band.  Again, not real fluid but at least a concrete and measurable increment.

Sure, I was just taking issue with Sommerjon's pointless & inaccurate argument that those weren't abstract range bands.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941587That's perfectly fine, of course. I'm not trying to bludgeon people into liking it. It was curiosity. It's much like how I had no desire to dig into the OSR. Ugh. Fuck that. D&D...no...just...no...

Yeah, didn't mean to sound like knee-jerk snark. It is just that there has been a history of gamers pushing their favorite game and if they can't win others over to it, they just say that they didn't play the game long enough to give it a chance. Mea culpa.

Back to compatibility. How much, if any does the FFG background material contradict the older source material. The system guides and all that?

Quote from: jeff37923;941396Star Wars Rebels has Knobby Spiders, Inquisitors, Interdictor Cruisers, the planet Shantipole. Most of the EU was based off of WEG Star Wars and some of the better stuff has remained as canon.

Slight tangent: A friend of mine has been digging through his WEG sourcebooks to find references that were used in the Rogue One Visual Guide:  https://twitter.com/hishgraphics/status/819381226301591553

Quote from: fellowhoodlum;941681Slight tangent: A friend of mine has been digging through his WEG sourcebooks to find references that were used in the Rogue One Visual Guide:  https://twitter.com/hishgraphics/status/819381226301591553

Oh yeah, I was reading some articles on the EU and how it influences the new canon, and yes the WEG game did and still does have a big impact. I can't remember the article but one of the people working on Rebels remarked on how the EU material, though not canon, are still owned by Disney and when it seems appropriate characters, locations and other named things can be used even if out of context with the original material. This is how Darth Bane (voice by Mark Hamill) got brought into canon at the end of the Clone Wars series. I don't think Rebels was even a done deal at the time, and the people making Clone Wars wanted to bring Bane into canon before the series ended. In Rebels, they did the same with Grand Admiral Thrawn. His story is completely different than the original Trilogy but there is no doubt it is the same character. Moreover, the upcoming canon Thrawn novel is being written by Timothy Zahn so it's quite possible he'll get the character right.

I haven't seen Rogue One yet. If I wait any longer it may end up being the only Star Wars film I didn't see in the theater. But that's a health related issue and not a personal choice. I will watch all the Star Wars. All of it. However, there are several Rebels Easter Eggs in the film. Those Hammerhead ships are directly from Rebels. Meaning, the Rogue One production team thought they looked neat and asked the Rebels team if they could use them. They are the same models, just retextured. The funny thing is, the Rogue One people didn't know about the storyline with the Hammerheads or how a young Leia helped the Rebels obtain them. So it has deeper meaning because of serendipity.

I am unsure about FFG Star Wars because we're talking some serious cash even as an entry level game. Not that I wouldn't pay it, but I would have to actually have living breathing players made of meat sitting at a table with me to make that investment. However, I might get something like the Edge of Empire boxed set rules and some extra dice. I collect dice, so if I never used them they can go sit on the shelf with my Fudge Dice and my Cheater Dice (the latter has been in the packaging for close to 30 years). I don't mind systems with narrative mechanics but at the same time I kind of like crunchier systems. I at least want to give it at try.

I did run a d20 RCR campaign for a few years about a decade ago. Say what you will, that was the most fun in Star Wars I have ever had. Mind you I also used Dungeon Dice to make random space stations and military bases as well as the ventilation system in a Star Destroyer. The latter was the best, as someone made a joke about how clean air vents always were until I started chasing them around with the droids that clean the vents that I invented on the spot. It probably didn't hurt that I had played both Knights of the Old Republic games extensively, so the d20 mechanics didn't bother me so much.

Last year I did get about 3000 pages of the ReUp stuff based on the WEG d6 game printed out during a Lulu sale. Let's just say that I am ready to play d6 Star Wars at any given moment. I still want to try FFG Star Wars. I may love it or I may not like it at all. I love Cortex Plus and I could not understand Marvel Heroic until I was actually reading through Fate Core and suddenly understood it. That said, even though I love Cortex Plus and I know it uses Fate mechanics, I do not like Fate. So there is no way to know if I will like FFGSWRPG until I actually play it.

Quote from: Omega;941669Back to compatibility. How much, if any does the FFG background material contradict the older source material. The system guides and all that?

FFG has a lot of the Legends material in its background, including things like Vader's apprentice from Force Unleashed being responsible for bringing the Rebel Alliance together. The newer products have been downplaying the Legends material and pushing a bit more of the Disney version, but it's not absolute. Still, you do find some oddities, like the E-wing being developed around the time of the Battle of Yavin, because FFG wants to fit as much as possible into their very limited focus time that starts with the Battle of Yavin and ends with the Battle of Endor.

Quote from: fellowhoodlum;941681Slight tangent: A friend of mine has been digging through his WEG sourcebooks to find references that were used in the Rogue One Visual Guide:  https://twitter.com/hishgraphics/status/819381226301591553

That is pretty cool!

Let him know that the name of Jedi Master Mace Windu was first used as the name of a Squib salesman at Jawa Traders in Galaxy Guide 7: Mos Eisley (page 57).

Quote from: jeff37923;941658Yeah, didn't mean to sound like knee-jerk snark. It is just that there has been a history of gamers pushing their favorite game and if they can't win others over to it, they just say that they didn't play the game long enough to give it a chance. Mea culpa.

I didn't take it that way, no worries! I've had plenty of people steer me right and help me find joy in a game I wanted to like, but had a hard time with. If I can possibly do the same, I'll try. In the end I don't get upset that others don't enjoy what I like and respect their choices.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;941615Anecdotally (I haven't actually analyzed my recordings), it seemed to come down to two major factors.

First, the initiative system. The strategic flexibility of any PC being able to claim on the PC initiative slots offers some intriguing gameplay options, but the extra decision points it introduces is a constant, low-level drag on the speed of combat. In addition, patting myself on the back for a moment, over the years I've gotten very good at managing initiative in a way that keeps the pace of play as high as possible: Prompting action declaration. Putting people on deck. Calling for (or making) the next set of rolls in the down time we have in current resolution. And so forth. A lot of these techniques vanish in a puff of smoke with these kind of "hot potato" initiative systems, which further kills pace compared to other games we play.

Second, the core mechanic in general. The math required to tally up to four different results on every roll is not particularly difficult, but even with experience it's still a time sink that adds up rapidly over the course of multiple rolls. (And you also have the additional decision point and time sink of spending the advantage/threat/triumph/despair you end up with.) The system's approach puts a lot of interesting detail into every roll, but the overall design of the system remains very traditional so you end up (IMO) with a large number of rolls that are just getting bogged down with all the extra detail. (Particularly/specifically in combat.)



I'm obviously going to be biased on this. I will say that we've done a number of things with Infinity to, hopefully, make our explanations of the rules clearer and easier to learn/reference. The system does share the time sink of, "What do I spend this Momentum on?" and that does, unavoidably, slow down play.

Too lazy to clip it down, sorry. It's totally cool! Be biased as can be, bud. It's your baby! I'm completely on-board to learn 2d20 and anything you want to chime in on is fine. And I get that over time the people writing 2d20 games will polish it with each game, even if they have little tweaks in the rules. I'm looking forward to Infinity.

By the way, thanks for all the discussion, I sent my friend a link so he can read all the different opinions.

For all the people talking about "Why would you care about fuel in Star Wars?"  I dunno, because maybe the ships use fuel?  Hypermatter, whatever Ion thrusters run on, etc.

The people I play with don't want to play in a literary construct and create stories that 100% match the movies and television series.  They want to roleplay a character in the Star Wars universe.  That universe can support Firefly-type scenarios.  The first book, Edge of the Empire, is about Scoundrels, right?  Han Solo at Star's End type stuff.  Even if you roleplay in StoryMode, you certainly can see that Han spent a significant amount of time, even when involved and even leading the Rebel Alliance, in constantly keeping the Millenium Falcon repaired.  Even if you move on to the second book, dealing with the Rebel Alliance, since the RPG isn't one of the three wargames (Imperial Assault, X-Wing or Armada) then how does a group of four people help the Alliance?  By doing small commando stuff, by doing essentially Shadowruns, but also by keeping the damn fleet operational through smuggling, trading, etc.

The second you step away from "What literally did Luke, Han and Leia do?" then you step into verisimilitude where things like Fuel, Ammo, Maintenance, Supply, etc. can become Mission Critical for the Star Wars version of the Firefly crew.

Damn, do people actually need to be told this?  This isn't self-evident?

The answer seems to be "every possible expendable resource runs on Narrativium".  Which isn't gonna work I don't think.  It would be easier to take a working system without Narrativium and convert stats then to take a Narrative system and invent new mechanics to drop out of StoryMode.

@Kreuger,

Star Wars is just like any other serialized science fiction story universe in that weapons and equipment need reloading, refuelling, and maintenance which is assumed to be happening 'off camera' most of the time.

Unless there's a plot-driven need for it to matter-- like when the shuttlecraft crash lands and you discover the captain doesn't keep supplies on board! Or if the hyperdrive 'leaks' and you have to divert to another planet, etc.

Playing in the 80s, my D&D group just wrote 'adventuring gear' on their character sheet, and you only ran out of door spikes or torches if the DM needed you to for the game.

I prefer that to playing "Accountants & Actuaries" where the players track every kg of weight and ammo to the round.

Quote from: CRKrueger;941793By the way, thanks for all the discussion, I sent my friend a link so he can read all the different opinions.

For all the people talking about "Why would you care about fuel in Star Wars?"  I dunno, because maybe the ships use fuel?  Hypermatter, whatever Ion thrusters run on, etc.

The people I play with don't want to play in a literary construct and create stories that 100% match the movies and television series.  They want to roleplay a character in the Star Wars universe.  That universe can support Firefly-type scenarios.  The first book, Edge of the Empire, is about Scoundrels, right?  Han Solo at Star's End type stuff.  Even if you roleplay in StoryMode, you certainly can see that Han spent a significant amount of time, even when involved and even leading the Rebel Alliance, in constantly keeping the Millenium Falcon repaired.  Even if you move on to the second book, dealing with the Rebel Alliance, since the RPG isn't one of the three wargames (Imperial Assault, X-Wing or Armada) then how does a group of four people help the Alliance?  By doing small commando stuff, by doing essentially Shadowruns, but also by keeping the damn fleet operational through smuggling, trading, etc.

The second you step away from "What literally did Luke, Han and Leia do?" then you step into verisimilitude where things like Fuel, Ammo, Maintenance, Supply, etc. can become Mission Critical for the Star Wars version of the Firefly crew.

Damn, do people actually need to be told this?  This isn't self-evident?

The answer seems to be "every possible expendable resource runs on Narrativium".  Which isn't gonna work I don't think.  It would be easier to take a working system without Narrativium and convert stats then to take a Narrative system and invent new mechanics to drop out of StoryMode.

For those who crave a maintenance intensive facet to the game there's a fabulous fan-made supplement for it. I can try to find it again, if interested. It's about as official-looking as I've seen and it's pretty well-received.

As far as narrative handling of the fiddly bits, it works for many people. A lot of people just want to get to the action/plot/whatever. It may not work for you, but that doesn't make it bad or that those who disregard it are clueless.

One thing that bears mentioning is that there are repair construction and rules for the mechanics and tinkerers in the group.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;941798@Kreuger,

Star Wars is just like any other serialized science fiction story universe in that weapons and equipment need reloading, refuelling, and maintenance which is assumed to be happening 'off camera' most of the time.

Unless there's a plot-driven need for it to matter-- like when the shuttlecraft crash lands and you discover the captain doesn't keep supplies on board! Or if the hyperdrive 'leaks' and you have to divert to another planet, etc.

Playing in the 80s, my D&D group just wrote 'adventuring gear' on their character sheet, and you only ran out of door spikes or torches if the DM needed you to for the game.

I prefer that to playing "Accountants & Actuaries" where the players track every kg of weight and ammo to the round.

Again, it's in keeping with the universe.  Blasters have an ungodly amount of ammo, like in the hundreds of shots, and that's just the pistols.  And you can assume that any docking fees includes refueling, and given that all known hyperlanes are mapped out, the astrogation computers built into every Hyper Drive capable vessel will make sure you have the right amount of fuel for you to get to where you want to go.

Detail apathy is just one play style. Even if action films set in a fictional universe choose not to dwell on how much fuel or credits are on hand, or where the toilets are, presumably the universe represented does actually work based on existential things that have actual quantities and measurements associated with them. As an audience member, or as an apathetic math/records/detail-intolerant player, one may not care about that, but the universe and the people in that universe presumably do. Han seemed pretty interested in the number of credits Obi-Wan was offering him in the cantina. And there seem to be entire staffs of rebel and imperial minions dealing with logistics and maintenance. Stormtroopers seem to carry bandoliers of gear, and even if a blaster can shoot 100 shots and no one is seen reloading, it doesn't mean there aren't limits and effects - maybe shot strength or accuracy start to degrade.

I know that I and my players do tend to care about how things work and what the limits are in the games we play. The schemes, adventures and tactics tend to involve pushing the limits, so it matters what those limits are. Ok so ya certainly ships make sure they have enough fuel to jump where they're going, but that's an actual amount, and it will matter when/if there is ship damage, an accident, a change of plans, a need to jump without refueling, a need to lie to the refueling authorities abut where you're actually going, a need to know how much fuel a ship would still have left, or how long it can be on patrol without having a supply concern, etc etc etc. Is ship fuel explosive? Does it contribute to the blast strength in a ship crash, can it be used to make a bomb, and/or re-sold? How much does it cost to operate a ship and make jumps? What happens when you run out of spare parts or sell off unneeded ship gear or try to skimp on maintenance? How much looted equipment can we cram in the hold, and how damaged will it get when we make violent maneuvers? You and your players may not care, but it's never long before my players start asking questions and making plans based on answers to such questions.

Sounds like FFG has near-zero answers to these sorts of questions.