Quote from: Christopher Brady;941828Again, it's in keeping with the universe.  Blasters have an ungodly amount of ammo, like in the hundreds of shots, and that's just the pistols.  And you can assume that any docking fees includes refueling, and given that all known hyperlanes are mapped out, the astrogation computers built into every Hyper Drive capable vessel will make sure you have the right amount of fuel for you to get to where you want to go.

Which is totally fine.
But...you will have to refuel at some point, or do maintenance, or whatever.  The blaster will run out of Tibanna Gas or whatever at some point.  That may come into play depending on what's happening or it may not.

There's a universe of excluded middle between Actuaries and Accountants and "Everything is perfect unless you roll too many Epic Fail symbols".

Quote from: Skarg;941840Detail apathy is just one play style. Even if action films set in a fictional universe choose not to dwell on how much fuel or credits are on hand, or where the toilets are, presumably the universe represented does actually work based on existential things that have actual quantities and measurements associated with them. As an audience member, or as an apathetic math/records/detail-intolerant player, one may not care about that, but the universe and the people in that universe presumably do. Han seemed pretty interested in the number of credits Obi-Wan was offering him in the cantina. And there seem to be entire staffs of rebel and imperial minions dealing with logistics and maintenance. Stormtroopers seem to carry bandoliers of gear, and even if a blaster can shoot 100 shots and no one is seen reloading, it doesn't mean there aren't limits and effects - maybe shot strength or accuracy start to degrade.

I know that I and my players do tend to care about how things work and what the limits are in the games we play. The schemes, adventures and tactics tend to involve pushing the limits, so it matters what those limits are. Ok so ya certainly ships make sure they have enough fuel to jump where they're going, but that's an actual amount, and it will matter when/if there is ship damage, an accident, a change of plans, a need to jump without refueling, a need to lie to the refueling authorities abut where you're actually going, a need to know how much fuel a ship would still have left, or how long it can be on patrol without having a supply concern, etc etc etc. Is ship fuel explosive? Does it contribute to the blast strength in a ship crash, can it be used to make a bomb, and/or re-sold? How much does it cost to operate a ship and make jumps? What happens when you run out of spare parts or sell off unneeded ship gear or try to skimp on maintenance? How much looted equipment can we cram in the hold, and how damaged will it get when we make violent maneuvers? You and your players may not care, but it's never long before my players start asking questions and making plans based on answers to such questions.

Sounds like FFG has near-zero answers to these sorts of questions.

Not really, in the 'customization' options, they list bits of Blasters and even melee weapons.  Even starship lists, but it's the minutiae that doesn't matter.  Because for the most part, it leads to micromanagement and constant cost adjudication which slows the game down, or at the extreme end, power gaming.

Well, and if my players have epic fails, they're going to want to know how their supposedly super-reliable blasters failed, in detail, and what they can do about that. And when they learn it is just cosmic narrativium and in fact the exact same odds would apply if they were using six-guns with this game system, that tends to be disappointing.

It also occurs to me that the FFG game uses percentile dice which aren't included in either the dice sets or beginner boxes they sell.

I mean come on.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941381That's a licensing issue.  I don't think they're allowed to add anything to the setting.

Quote from: tenbones;941391FFG is under a pretty strict license as I understand it. They only very recently got clearance to do unspecified material for the new trilogy. I don't think they can even touch the prequels. WEG was under no such constraints.

That's my point.

So what exactly are they putting in their games?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941381Now, as for diverging, that I'm not sure what you mean here.

WEG was able to take the game into experimental directions (like Otherspace) which didn't necessarily line up with what people expected from Star Wars.

Quote from: tenbones;941391Dice don't cancel out dice.

I'm not talking about the dice.

Quote from: tenbones;941391So still not that hard (assuming you read the rules).

#Irony

Quote from: tenbones;941391Booster Dice/Setback dice represent environmental/situational bonuse/penalties with a random factor added to them. What do they add? Well for time immemorial in RPG's GM's have granted bonuses/penalties based on situations ad-hoc, the principle applies here. The actual symbols on these dice are exactly the same as on the other dice. Success/Failure, Advantage/Disadvantage.

This can be done with the other dice, so they're redundant.

Quote from: tenbones;941391Is this a serious question? Because that's like asking "What does putting skillpoints in your skills in WEG d6 Star Wars add to the experience?" I'll pretend you're not being obtuse: Well it allows your character to do things statistically better than not. If you didn't - you'd remain a starting character.

This can be done without talent trees, so they're unnecessary.

Quote from: tenbones;941391Well then my opinion is more well informed than yours. Granted, I risked my money to form this opinion.

Actually, if anything that makes your opinion more biased and suspect.

Quote from: tenbones;941391This conversation is making me want to play.

Then it's been more successful than 99% of the shit that happens here

Quote from: tenbones;941391Well there's a number of errors in the article (not to mention the comments) about how the system works.

Then how about you point them out?

Quote from: tenbones;941391If anyone has read *any* of my posts on this game they'll see I've said *many* times I was extremely skeptical of the game, the system, all of it. It wasn't until I actually ran the game that I was convinced it had legs.

Proclaiming your initial skepticism and change of faith is not pointing them out.

Quote from: tenbones;941391But most of the other "criticisms" - like the game being highly-narrative, or super-complex, or the crazy-looking charts, dice-symbols! - etc. I find disingenuous, if not flat out wrong.

Luckily none of those criticisms were leveled at the game by either by myself or Justin. On the other hand we both pointed out the game was incomplete, inconsistent, and more complex than it needed to be.

Quote from: tenbones;941500That I made a simple mention of cancellation-effects of the primary values on the dice and didn't include the typically *rare* Triumph+Despair non-cancellation rule probably doesn't warrant the assumption that I mangle the game and have horrible reading comprehension and I'm fucking up core-mechanics because I'm not re-reading core rulebooks to your satisfaction. More likely it's just an honest omission of an honest discussion.

This doesn't change the fact you made an incorrect statement twice regarding information which is effortless to verify and after links were provided to you which did so.

Quote from: tenbones;941500Well I'm not *actually* playing FFG Star Wars as I post on this topic. I don't change any of the rules mechanics.

Quote from: tenbones;941500I'm addressing mechanical difficulties in direct play and relation to other Star Wars games. Nothing more. As someone that has run the game and doesn't deviate from the rules save for where rules do not exist - convincing me the game doesn't work, or it's a narrative mess, flies in the face of my actually doing those things with it.

This is not a defense. This is not a validation. This is #CognitiveDissonance at its finest and exactly what Justin was talking about. Basically it can't be broken because it works for you, even though you've clearly demonstrated you don't fully understand how it works.

Which is fine, because you should stick with what works for you regardless of why, but the experience is non-portable between groups.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941552Could you please give a reference for that? I don't believe that Triumphs and Despairs modify the other to Advantage and Threat, respectively.

Apparently they do, sorta.

Quote from: Use The FAQ Luke...Q: Does a Threat cancel the Success portion of a Triumphs? Does an Advantage cancel the Failure portion of a Despair?

A: Yes in both cases. However, the Triumph and Despair's narrative effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur.  It's even possible to have the narrative effects of both a Triumph and Despair happen on the same roll, making for especially dramatic results.

Which is news to me, and makes the game even more unnecessarily complex than I initially thought.

Quote from: Omega;941585It feels like theres like one layer too many of complexity to it all. Like it could have been done smoother or less steps.

There is, and it could be, and the people who successfully play it all seem to ignore large portions of it to do so.

Quote from: Krimson;941687I love Cortex Plus and I could not understand Marvel Heroic until I was actually reading through Fate Core and suddenly understood it. That said, even though I love Cortex Plus and I know it uses Fate mechanics, I do not like Fate.

Yeah, I've encountered the same kind of thing in multiple disciplines.

Quote from: jeff37923;941696Let him know that the name of Jedi Master Mace Windu was first used as the name of a Squib salesman at Jawa Traders in Galaxy Guide 7: Mos Eisley (page 57).

:eek:

#Amazeballs

Quote from: CRKrueger;941841There's a universe of excluded middle between Actuaries and Accountants and "Everything is perfect unless you roll too many Epic Fail symbols".

That's just crazy talk!

Oh, and as for the hyperspace range and fuel issue, are there really players who won't want to know how far on the map they can get on a full load of fuel, as well as their current range with their current fuel? That seems like a really basic thing, and one that seems much better handled by actual numbers than by no numbers and random die rolls.

Quote from: Skarg;941861Oh, and as for the hyperspace range and fuel issue, are there really players who won't want to know how far on the map they can get on a full load of fuel, as well as their current range with their current fuel? That seems like a really basic thing, and one that seems much better handled by actual numbers than by no numbers and random die rolls.

Apparently, for many, they can travel across the Galaxy Far Far Away, to the Milky Way, Andromeda and back, and no one needs to care about it unless someone thinks it's #DramaticallySatisfying or some kind of Plot Twist complete with Dun Dun Dun music.

Do you beat the Imperial Star Destroyer to Dantooine?  Doesn't matter where you are where you start, where they are where they start, how fast your respective ships are or even how far Dantooine is really.  All that matters is whether you got 2 MoneyShot Symbols. {Yes I'm aware they use Hyperdrive Class like WEG did, just making fun of the Extreme Handwavium Club more than anything}

Quote from: Skarg;941844Well, and if my players have epic fails, they're going to want to know how their supposedly super-reliable blasters failed, in detail, and what they can do about that. And when they learn it is just cosmic narrativium and in fact the exact same odds would apply if they were using six-guns with this game system, that tends to be disappointing.

OK, fair enough, I can agree there.  

However, the problem I'm having, and it's not something you can deal with is that any game I've played.  Most of them don't go into that much detail.

If the game has jamming rules, (and I'm only speaking from my personal experience) it often doesn't go into detail as to what happened.  Assumption: .45 auto.  Did the slide catch on something?  Did the spent shell eject fully, or is stuck?  Did a spring snap?  We don't know, and often we don't need to know, all we know is that the weapon 'broke' and may be out of the fight, or might be recoverable.

And for a lot of people going into detail as to what exactly happened, breaks down into bean counting, all we really need to know is the gun can't fire.  Why?  Make shit up.

Quote from: CRKrueger;941867All that matters is whether you got 2 MoneyShot Symbols.

Oh dear, what cancels out a money shot symbol?!

Nevermind, I don't want to know.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941871OK, fair enough, I can agree there.  

However, the problem I'm having, and it's not something you can deal with is that any game I've played.  Most of them don't go into that much detail.

If the game has jamming rules, (and I'm only speaking from my personal experience) it often doesn't go into detail as to what happened.  Assumption: .45 auto.  Did the slide catch on something?  Did the spent shell eject fully, or is stuck?  Did a spring snap?  We don't know, and often we don't need to know, all we know is that the weapon 'broke' and may be out of the fight, or might be recoverable.

And for a lot of people going into detail as to what exactly happened, breaks down into bean counting, all we really need to know is the gun can't fire.  Why?  Make shit up.

There are several levels of possible detail between having different types of mechanical failures, and not really tracking any details at all and having everything from malfunctions to aiming and dodging and cover and The Force represented by abstract dice that take none of that into account. When the game includes how many rounds are in each type of weapon, how likely a gun is to malfunction, its accuracy properties, the positions of the combatants and available cover, their armor, physical condition, skills, stances and actions, then all of things become actual elements of play that can be played with in ways that make sense. When none of those things have any stats or rules, those things either don't exist, have no effect, or have an invented-on-the-spot effect. In the examples in the sample with the pictures of the dice, clearly it's the generic dice, not really taking the situation into account much at all, and then the details are afterthoughts that sound plausible as if things like armor were taken into account, but they're not except possibly if they were theoretically somehow fudged by someone into the number of dice to roll.

OK, so everyone has a opinion. Fine. Whatever. You like things or don't. But bitching that FFG makes a game that uses percentiles but doesn't come with percentile dice? That's a moronic complaint unless you bitch that nearly every RPG around doesn't include dice. I guess all those OSR fans better riot since their game didn't include a d20! OPP? They screw you out of a ton of 10-siders!

Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;941897Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.

I know, how could those heathens not enjoy something you do?

I bet they don't even like Lutefisk.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;941897Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.

C'mon, brother. It's not an RPG site sacred cow so it must suck. One also has to consider the seething vitriol many have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic. FFG Star Wars, Cypher System and PbtA are all things I see get shit on for reasons I don't agree with, but whatever. I won't argue opinions because they don't affect my enjoyment. I will argue blatant ignorance of how the mechanics work, as well as help people who like the game (or really want to) but are struggling with enjoyment find it. Past that, haters gonna' hate.

I wonder how Blades in the Dark would be received?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961It's not an RPG site sacred cow so it must suck.

You mean as opposed to: Oh, it's got new Story Mechanics, it must be the greatest thing ever!

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961One also has to consider the seething vitriol many have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic.

You mean as opposed to the oddly unsettling sexual fetish some have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961Past that, haters gonna' hate.

...and fanbois gonna come all over themselves.

See how that stupid shit works?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961I wonder how Blades in the Dark would be received?

People who love OOC Storytelling Mechanics will like it, people who prefer IC Roleplaying not quite so much.