TheRPGSite

Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Zachary The First on April 13, 2007, 10:05:24 AM

Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Zachary The First on April 13, 2007, 10:05:24 AM
So, those of you who dig games with dice pool systems, what's your favorite system that uses dice pools for resolution?  Do you consider it smooth and easy to run, or does it use maddening amounts of dice sometimes and lead to resolution lag?  What do see as the pros and cons to the system?
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: RedFox on April 13, 2007, 10:20:10 AM
I'm not a big fan of dice pool systems, but I think D6 is workable if not altogether elegant.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Tom B on April 13, 2007, 10:43:24 AM
How do you define "dice pool"?

EABA uses a number of d6s equal to skill plus attribute, and then you take the highest 3.  Does that count?
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: flyingmice on April 13, 2007, 10:45:43 AM
StarPool

:D

-clash
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on April 13, 2007, 11:16:46 AM
D6. Totally.  It can be slow to add up the dice if you are, I dunno, blind or in another room or if you maybe didn't actually roll any dice, I guess.  Otherwise it's pretty easy, since pools rarely get over 6D in most cases.  

I'm not thinking of any glaring problems, except that the fantasy book doesn't have a strongly-defined magic system, and that building starships with the space book alone is kind of meh.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Anemone on April 13, 2007, 11:26:32 AM
7th Sea; WEG Star Wars/D6; oWOD/Aeon Trinity/Adventure! (haven't tried nWOD yet); octaNe.  In the mini-pool/fixed pool category: Blue Planet, Tri-Stat, PDQ, Masterbook, Wushu.

I'm not too hot about any of the Shadowrun versions.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: C.W.Richeson on April 13, 2007, 12:03:09 PM
World of Darkness is, by far, my favorite dice pool system.  It's very easy to work with and the pools don't slow anything down.  For me, it retains the fun of rolling a bunch of dice without the added complexity found in many dice pool systems.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: James McMurray on April 13, 2007, 12:03:51 PM
I like L5R's roll and keep method, where you roll a number of d10s equal to skill + attribute and then keep a number equal to the attribute, then add those up and see if you hit the target number. It sounds clunky when you first read it, but runs really smoothly in play. Even if you're afraid of math, the pool cannot get over 10 (any dice over ten that would be rolled instead convert to extra dice kept) so addition is rarely high numbers.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Christmas Ape on April 13, 2007, 01:03:38 PM
While there is a great fondness in my heart for the L5R-style roll and keep system James mentions above me, I think I've been rather explicit in my preference for ORE. Never gets bigger than 10 dice, remarkably quick to read if you know what numerals look like, and there's a lot of neat little tricks you can do with the dice to reflect increased competency. The cons center around it being a little airtight in its methods, requiring heavy wrangling to introduce something like, say, tick-based combat...
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Wil on April 13, 2007, 01:24:13 PM
SilCore, uses d6 roll and keep. Rarely more than 4-5 dice (it can jump to 10 with some options) and processing is a snap.

I'm actually becoming very fond of FATE but I'm not sure if it's a die pool system per se. It's just really easy to add the plusses and minuses together.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Caesar Slaad on April 13, 2007, 01:26:46 PM
I really don't like "2nd wave" dice pool systems with a plethora of little add ons that make the whole thing unmanageable. Roll-and-keep, wild dice, and similar arragements make an already troublesome dice system maddening.


To this end, I find the dice pool system in NWOD about the most tolerable, usable, and sane from a probability standpoint.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Caesar Slaad on April 13, 2007, 01:27:37 PM
Quote from: WilI'm actually becoming very fond of FATE but I'm not sure if it's a die pool system per se. It's just really easy to add the plusses and minuses together.

It's not, though it people want to call the FATE/FUDGE system a dice pool and use it instead of dice pools, that would be a GOOD THING [tm].
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: joewolz on April 13, 2007, 01:28:15 PM
I disagree Caesar,  I enjoy the nWoD system for sure, but I really, really dig 7th Sea's r+k system.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Claudius on April 13, 2007, 01:36:22 PM
Quote from: Tom BHow do you define "dice pool"?

EABA uses a number of d6s equal to skill plus attribute, and then you take the highest 3.  Does that count?
EABA should count. A dice pool is a dice pool when the amount of dice rolled may vary.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Claudius on April 13, 2007, 01:37:41 PM
Quote from: WilSilCore, uses d6 roll and keep. Rarely more than 4-5 dice (it can jump to 10 with some options) and processing is a snap.

I'm actually becoming very fond of FATE but I'm not sure if it's a die pool system per se. It's just really easy to add the plusses and minuses together.
FATE shouldn't count. SilCore does. See above. :)
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Wil on April 13, 2007, 01:43:43 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI really don't like "2nd wave" dice pool systems with a plethora of little add ons that make the whole thing unmanageable. Roll-and-keep, wild dice, and similar arragements make an already troublesome dice system maddening.

I don't see how SilCore is maddening. I roll three dice, the results are 1,4,5 - my roll is a 5. The maddening are ones where you have to line the dice up, find doubles, add and subtract depending on various numbers. But a straight roll and keep the highest is as fast to read IME as just rolling 1 die
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on April 13, 2007, 02:05:39 PM
Silhouette 2nd ed. and nWoD are my faves. I haven't tried SilCore, but I'm sure it's also very good.

I used to like Exalted's system, and I've got about thirty or forty d10s, but it's clunky as all shit and not very good. I just like hucking a full fist of dice around.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Wil on April 13, 2007, 02:09:39 PM
Quote from: PseudoephedrineSilhouette 2nd ed. and nWoD are my faves. I haven't tried SilCore, but I'm sure it's also very good.

SilCore is, functionally, identical.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on April 13, 2007, 02:14:48 PM
Cool. The main reason I didn't pick it up was that I'd already bought a ton of HG 2nd ed. stuff and didn't want to buy everything again. Plus the game's emphasis starting changing to planet hopping etc. which I didn't want.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Caesar Slaad on April 13, 2007, 02:19:40 PM
Quote from: WilI don't see how SilCore is maddening.

I don't own sil core nor recall enough about how it operates, so I wasn't directly commenting on it.

QuoteI roll three dice, the results are 1,4,5 - my roll is a 5.

Does the number you keep vary, or do you always keep one? If so, that sounds fairly staightforward. The "roll and keep" I was criticizing is where you roll a varying number of dice and keep another varying number of dice. That is (yes, joewolz) annoying and probabilistically opaque.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Wil on April 13, 2007, 02:27:56 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadDoes the number you keep vary, or do you always keep one? If so, that sounds fairly staightforward. The "roll and keep" I was criticizing is where you roll a varying number of dice and keep another varying number of dice. That is (yes, joewolz) annoying and probabilistically opaque.
Multiple 6s add +1 to the total. So rolling 6,6,6 = 8. There is a cinematic option that does the same thing for 5s and 6s (so 5,4,6 would be a 7) and I've heard of people doing it for doubles (2,2,6,5 would be a 7: 6 + 1 for the double 2s) but those aren't standard options. In all three of those cases I was able to get the final result without even blinking though - but I agree that manipulating the results too much is annoying. Exalted 2e can be a chore because you have to group the dice together to count successes.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: James McMurray on April 13, 2007, 03:03:32 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadThat is (yes, joewolz) annoying and probabilistically opaque.

This is one of the things I like about roll and keep. You can't glance at a couple numbers, calculate your odds of success, and decide whether to risk it. Instead you have to look at your skill vs. the expected difficulty and decide if you think you're good (or lucky) enough.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: HinterWelt on April 13, 2007, 03:22:07 PM
Zach,
You have gotten me thinking. Could you take a look? (http://www.hinterwelt.com/HWEForum/viewtopic.php?t=166)

Thanks,
Bill
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Caesar Slaad on April 13, 2007, 03:32:49 PM
Quote from: James McMurrayThis is one of the things I like about roll and keep. You can't glance at a couple numbers, calculate your odds of success, and decide whether to risk it.

I've heard this defense of the more convoluted dice pools variants, and I think it's bogus. It's arguable that there might be a benefit in keeping the players a bit ambivalent about their chances. But it's never acceptable, AFAIAC, to keep the GM in the dark about the chances.

The best way to get the best of both worlds here is to have a system that accommodates keeping the target number secret from the player.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Zachary The First on April 13, 2007, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: HinterWeltZach,
You have gotten me thinking. Could you take a look? (http://www.hinterwelt.com/HWEForum/viewtopic.php?t=166)
 
Thanks,
Bill

Bill,
 
I'm at work at the moment, but if you're thinking what I think you're thinking... :haw:
 
(btw, I owe you a "report" on the project you emailed me about the other day.  I'll post up this weekend).
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: James McMurray on April 13, 2007, 04:02:46 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI've heard this defense of the more convoluted dice pools variants, and I think it's bogus. It's arguable that there might be a benefit in keeping the players a bit ambivalent about their chances. But it's never acceptable, AFAIAC, to keep the GM in the dark about the chances.

The best way to get the best of both worlds here is to have a system that accommodates keeping the target number secret from the player.

For the record, I'm not using it in defense of all convoluted dice mechanisms, just the ones that are simple enough to use quickly and yet vague enough from a probability perspective not to be easily predicted. Of the ones I've seen, only roll and keep using either a naturally small dice pool or a size cap fits.

As a GM, I also like to have my probabilities vague. I don't want the NPCs thinking about them any more than I want the PCs. YMMV
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: HinterWelt on April 13, 2007, 05:44:20 PM
Quote from: Zachary The FirstBill,
 
I'm at work at the moment, but if you're thinking what I think you're thinking... :haw:
 
(btw, I owe you a "report" on the project you emailed me about the other day.  I'll post up this weekend).
No sweat man. It is just me messing around with a conversion from Iridium Standard to what I am currently calling Iridium Pool. It is very short. I kind of like it right now but I am sure I am missing something...and that is where you come in. Hopefully James, Mike and Regulon will chime in too.

Thanks,
Bill
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Wil on April 13, 2007, 05:50:12 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI've heard this defense of the more convoluted dice pools variants, and I think it's bogus. It's arguable that there might be a benefit in keeping the players a bit ambivalent about their chances. But it's never acceptable, AFAIAC, to keep the GM in the dark about the chances.

The best way to get the best of both worlds here is to have a system that accommodates keeping the target number secret from the player.

For the more convoluted ones, sure, but the ones that stay within a reasonable range (3-6 dice or so) are generally no harder to figure out than a comparable additive system. Most people can't tell you what the odds a 5d6 fireball will have of killing a monster with 15 hit points; figuring out the odds of beating a target number of 4 when rolling 5d6 and keeping the highest isn't any different. And, of course, probability charts help a lot but they don't work if the die system is too complicated.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Caesar Slaad on April 13, 2007, 05:59:44 PM
Quote from: WilFor the more convoluted ones, sure, but the ones that stay within a reasonable range (3-6 dice or so) are generally no harder to figure out than a comparable additive system. Most people can't tell you what the odds a 5d6 fireball will have of killing a monster with 15 hit points; figuring out the odds of beating a target number of 4 when rolling 5d6 and keeping the highest isn't any different.

Which is why I think that linear is better than bell curves or dice pools of any stripe.

But within dice pools, you are better off with less variables with obvious effects than ones with convoluted ones. Which is why I maintain that within dice pool systems, nWoD is one of the best.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on April 13, 2007, 06:04:53 PM
Quote from: WilMost people can't tell you what the odds a 5d6 fireball will have of killing a monster with 15 hit points...
At least 5 points; at most, 30.  5 times the "average" roll of a d6 (4) is 20, so there's your middle ground -- and the fattest part of the bell curve.  That mofo is likely to get toasted up som'n goooood.

I thought everyone knew this stuff...
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Tom B on April 13, 2007, 06:28:05 PM
Quote from: ClaudiusEABA should count. A dice pool is a dice pool when the amount of dice rolled may vary.
Great!  In that case, I like the EABA system.  The other dice pool systems I've tried (7th Sea, White Wolf, etc.) not so much.  Too hard to get a feel for the probabilities.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Caesar Slaad on April 13, 2007, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!At least 5 points; at most, 30.  5 times the "average" roll of a d6 (4) is 20, so there's your middle ground -- and the fattest part of the bell curve.  That mofo is likely to get toasted up som'n goooood.

I thought everyone knew this stuff...

Average roll of a d6 is 3.5, making the average 17.5. ;)
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Pierce Inverarity on April 13, 2007, 07:12:18 PM
Quote from: WilMost people can't tell you what the odds a 5d6 fireball will have of killing a monster with 15 hit points; figuring out the odds of beating a target number of 4 when rolling 5d6 and keeping the highest isn't any different.

Wil, I have no trouble with the former. But while I'm sure there's a dead simple formula for the latter, I just don't know it, not having touched maths since high school except for tax purposes.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on April 13, 2007, 07:51:54 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadAverage roll of a d6 is 3.5, making the average 17.5. ;)
Yeah, I knew that.  But I had it in my head that "4" was abetter answer, for some reason, thinking that had been pointed out to me somewhere.  Still, I was close...!
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: flyingmice on April 14, 2007, 12:27:11 AM
Quote from: HinterWeltNo sweat man. It is just me messing around with a conversion from Iridium Standard to what I am currently calling Iridium Pool. It is very short. I kind of like it right now but I am sure I am missing something...and that is where you come in. Hopefully James, Mike and Regulon will chime in too.

Thanks,
Bill

Irdium Pool is to Iridium Standard as StarPool is to StarCluster. :D

-clash
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: HinterWelt on April 14, 2007, 12:32:53 AM
Quote from: flyingmiceIrdium Pool is to Iridium Standard as StarPool is to StarCluster. :D

-clash
Hey! You could chime in too bucko! ;)

Bill
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: flyingmice on April 14, 2007, 01:20:44 AM
Hi Bill - sent the doc to you via email - I can't pop it up on the server from home. It's one of a number of alternate task resolution systems you can use with the StarCluster System - I'm going to be publishing it in the StarCluster System Toolbox along with a commercial developer's licence.

-clash
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Christmas Ape on April 14, 2007, 03:19:02 AM
ORE has a handy 'curve of probability' spelled right out in the system in every game I've seen it in; the dice tricks I'm aware of only ever make it more likely that you'll succeed. I don't find it that hard to calculate odds; if I know I need to match any 2 numbers, 7d10 is obviously much better than 4d10, but not a whole lot better than 6d10.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: HinterWelt on April 14, 2007, 10:38:44 AM
Quote from: flyingmiceHi Bill - sent the doc to you via email - I can't pop it up on the server from home. It's one of a number of alternate task resolution systems you can use with the StarCluster System - I'm going to be publishing it in the StarCluster System Toolbox along with a commercial developer's licence.

-clash
Got it! Thanks, I will be looking it over today.

Bill
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Wil on April 14, 2007, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWil, I have no trouble with the former. But while I'm sure there's a dead simple formula for the latter, I just don't know it, not having touched maths since high school except for tax purposes.

For all intents and purposes the average roll for 2 dice and keep the highest is 4; for 3 and 4 dice it's 5; for 5 dice it's 6. When rolling under 4 dice or so, a +/- 1 modifier to the final roll has about the same impact as +/- 1 die  - so the average result for rolling 3 dice, and subtracting -1 from the total, is about the same as rolling 2 dice.

I freely admit that even a simple roll and keep die pool system isn't immediately intuitive when it comes to gauging chance of success. I usually tell my players if they have more dice than the target number, they're in good shape and if the target number is more than about double the number of dice they have (i.e., the target number is 8 and you have 4 dice) they will have a very good chance of failing.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: KrakaJak on April 15, 2007, 02:11:18 AM
My two favorites are beer and pretzels RP and WoD for dicepools.

WoD is so quick and easy, but still pretty flexible. Add dice to make something easier, take away dice to make it harder. Done.

Beer & Pretzels I like for the unique fact that the more dice in your pool, the harder it is to do.
 Most Dicepool systems work the other way around.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: flyingmice on April 17, 2007, 08:13:49 AM
As promised, the StarPool (http://jalan.flyingmice.com/PlayingStarPool.pdf) task resolution sub-system. If you know the StarCluster System, it has a percentile roll-under mechanic, and a layer of abstraction. That layer of abstraction allows one to chance task resolution while keeping everythig else. I have several alternate drop-in task resolution sub-systems I will be publishing, but StarPool is the one furthest along. Comments appreciated!

Starting up a new thread in Game Design...

-clash
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: pathfinderap on April 29, 2007, 09:40:42 AM
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!D6. Totally.  It can be slow to add up the dice if you are, I dunno, blind or in another room or if you maybe didn't actually roll any dice, I guess.  Otherwise it's pretty easy, since pools rarely get over 6D in most cases.  

I'm not thinking of any glaring problems, except that the fantasy book doesn't have a strongly-defined magic system, and that building starships with the space book alone is kind of meh.

LoL nice to see you here, Rotwang, :)

By dice pool I take it you mean game systems that use ever growing groups of the same dice?

I personal like dice pools, the old D6 isn't bad, (Star Wars being my favorite) I also like the oWoD Storyteller system, (if a tad "grainy",)

And Risus can punch above it's little weight, lol,

one of the worst of the dice pool systems I know of has to be 7th sea and the orignal Legend of the Five Rings, but don't get me wrong I still like them,
it's just a little "hands on"

The very worst though has got to be for Brave New World, I can't stand that system, nice setting though (reminds me of the X-Men)
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Jason Coplen on April 30, 2007, 01:48:08 AM
I like the die pool system in Burning Wheel, which resembles the d6 legends system.
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: pathfinderap on April 30, 2007, 06:44:41 AM
Quote from: Jason CoplenI like the die pool system in Burning Wheel, which resembles the d6 legends system.

I got the burning wheel, expecting it to be more than what it was,

I didn't really like the end result,
Title: Favorite Dice Pool Systems?
Post by: Jason Coplen on April 30, 2007, 10:16:49 PM
Quote from: pathfinderapI got the burning wheel, expecting it to be more than what it was,

I didn't really like the end result,

Oh, it's got its problems - Duel of Wits and scripted combat. I dropped Duel of Wits and have been reworking the combat system.