I think the complaints of complex chargen sending a group back to D&D actually mean that it was not D&D and it required some learning. Of course learning a new game took more time and mental energy than repeating a process that had been understood previously. The group just didn't see the benefits of taking the time to grok a new game.

We all have a limit on the number of new ways to get our elf on that we are willing to learn. For some that's high because we like systems, or the potential to do new things with systems. For others the number is low or even one, and that one is usually D&D.

Quote from: The_Shadow;689654I think the complaints of complex chargen sending a group back to D&D actually mean that it was not D&D and it required some learning. Of course learning a new game took more time and mental energy than repeating a process that had been understood previously. The group just didn't see the benefits of taking the time to grok a new game.

We all have a limit on the number of new ways to get our elf on that we are willing to learn. For some that's high because we like systems, or the potential to do new things with systems. For others the number is low or even one, and that one is usually D&D.

That's very true.

I love learning new game systems. Many of my friends absolutely detest it. They play whatever the newest version of D&D is (or Pathfinder lately). Some of them are also really into World of Darkness. Other than that, rpg's may as well not exist for them.

They're just not interested in learning new systems, when D&D or WoD does everything they want.

Quote from: The_Shadow;689654We all have a limit on the number of new ways to get our elf on that we are willing to learn. For some that's high because we like systems, or the potential to do new things with systems. For others the number is low or even one, and that one is usually D&D.

Or, in Germany, Das schwarze Auge.

But the situation is more complex as what you say applies more to fantasy games and not the whole spectrum. Monocultural fantasy gamers are absolutely capable and willing to learn other systems of other genres.
In Germany many, many DSA players also play Cthulhu or Shadowrun. In the 90s there was one system in particular that, for about 2 or 3 years, was the secondary system of almost every group: Plush Power & Plunder (basically a Toy Story RPG with plush animals). Their first adventure module in which teddy bears caused highjinx in a department store at night was as widely played and known as Keep on the Borderlands.

But try to offer the same group another fantasy game, complex char gen or not.

Traveller had complex character generation, but it was fun. IMO that's where RQ2 and especially RQ3 character generation fell down, not in the level of complexity itself but in the fact that it was tedious.

Now, early D&D character generation was certainly very fast, but it was also dull. And, when saying generation itself was fast, you still have to consider that there was a lot of reading ahead to see what the future held if you chose one class over another.

Still, if speed of producing characters is an issue (and I agree it could well be), then Chaosium RQ loses out to TSR D&D  (though possibly not AD&D RAW).

Quote from: Vile;689734And, when saying generation itself was fast, you still have to consider that there was a lot of reading ahead to see what the future held if you chose one class over another.

In my 80's experience we just envisioned a character and rolled stats, and adjusted them to make them fit the class. Or not even envisioning a character (as in: personality and background) but rather a race/class combo: "I want to play a gnome illusionist!"
Everything else entered the game as it became available, according to the PHB.

Only after a few years and actual play experience players started taking into account the future special abilities and spells.

I hate it when hubby is right. Hubby says in the past decade or so dnders have become.leatherhided. and refuse.to.explore.systems, even when complaining about the system. Reading this thread, I see it. Hours in character generation for RQ and BRP?  Shows, only lack of prep. The one reason people never gave RQ a chance is as stated it was all players needed. No need of skills, no need of combat, all abstract. One magic system, pretending to be more. Also eveything is given to you? Why explore, heck even dnd novels dont jibe with the game,lol. ( admuttedly, I havr only read those from tge 2nd ed era).
Same thing with WoD,  guess it is easier to live in someone elses reality, than dream in your own. Lol. ( see tge lol,???)
Hubby has reams of notebooks from the 1st ed and 2ed, self created worlds, or severly altering th Forgotten Realms, lol. And WoD is so locked into its world, no room to breathe.
The rrason dnd took off?  Simplicity, not os system of users. Sadly, with 4th ed we see hiw dnd has emulated more a world of computer games. What dnd wrought, it has become enslaved by.

Quote from: danbuter;689659I love learning new game systems. Many of my friends absolutely detest it. They play whatever the newest version of D&D is (or Pathfinder lately). Some of them are also really into World of Darkness. Other than that, rpg's may as well not exist for them.

They're just not interested in learning new systems, when D&D or WoD does everything they want.

I know one gamer that resists learning new games and will often say "Why not just use Pathfinder?" for any setting.

Quote from: Bill;689785I know one gamer that resists learning new games and will often say "Why not just use Pathfinder?" for any setting.

I will add to this that it used to be that the deference between D&D and its alternatives were pretty dramatic. With skills and/or detailed combat other RPGs were very clearly had things the D&D hadn't.

Since 3.X a "good enough" factor has entered the equation which the gamer above probably is feeling. Character customization? Pathfinder/3.X; "good enough for me", detailed combat? Pathfinder/3.X "good enough for me".

And the advent of both internet publishing and the open gaming license you got every alternative from the very simplistic to the very complex.

Moreso you got alternative within RPGs particularly anything d20 based like Pathfinder. You can find or easily create mechanics to run an over the top Pathfinder or a gritty realistic Pathfinder.

Look at the D100/BRP/Runequest variants alone.

Quote from: Bill;689785I know one gamer that resists learning new games and will often say "Why not just use Pathfinder?" for any setting.

Substitute RQ/BRP/Legend for Pathfinder and that's me, that is.

Quote from: soltakss;689801Substitute RQ/BRP/Legend for Pathfinder and that's me, that is.

I am a huge Elric and CoC fan, but I still gladly try new games.

It's fine to have favorite games but some people choose such a limited selection it seems strange to me.