TheRPGSite

I know there are people who reject the very label of the "Stone Age", but for the purposes of this thread can we please sidestep the definitional argument?

I'm researching a Forgotten Realms pre-history game set during the Days of Thunder. Much of that isn't hugely relevant, but the pertinent bit is that all the PCs will be human, and in those days humans were in the stone age. What I'm curious about is how that tech level impacts society and thus what sorts of PCs we'd have.

I guess the most important question is food. While it is a fantasy world with magic, I'm assuming your basic fundamentals still apply, and there aren't magical solutions that negate the need to consider these sorts of things. Obviously there'll be people living a pastoral hunter-gatherer type lifestyle. I'd also expect a degree of cultivation of the land, though.

How developed would agriculture be? Could settled people support communities larger than a village? How miserable are the lives of the settled ones (I'm assuming incessant back-breaking labour is necessary to tend land without much sophistication of techniques) compared to those still roaming?

About animal husbandry. If people are cultivating the land, will they have cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens and so on? What about horses and dogs?

What impact would the introduction of some bronze items through trade have on what happens in daily life? I'm thinking tools, jewelry, weapons. Perhaps ceramics too, presumably people with bronze age tech have that, but people with stone age tech don't?

How viable are stone-based tools, implements and weapons if you have the ability to augment their fragility with minor magics?

Presumably the most important and commonly-occuring defensive item for someone expecting to get into combat is a shield? Would there be any body armour?

What other things should I be thinking about?

Lot of good questions.

First off, weapons should be roughly the same effectiveness as the 'standard' counterparts.  A stone axe can be about as deadly as a steel axe, so spending a lot of time adjusting those things isn't usually worth it.  If you're going to have 'steel items' at all, just give them the ability to ignore a certain amount of armor or natural armor.  

A lot of weapons require more advanced techniques than might be possible.  Stone swords just won't exist.  You might see a macuahuitl - a wooden weapon with shark's teeth or obsidian bits along the length to give a cutting edge.  But keep the weapons simple and you're fine.

Obviously, you wouldn't have the same kinds of armor.  Metal armors just wouldn't exist.  You could use hide - but be reluctant to include other types.  You might want to consider 'piecemeal' armor rules so bracers or belts might add a small armor bonus.  The 2nd edition Complete Fighter has rules along those lines.  

As far as food goes - hunter/gatherers tended to have a better life than early farmers.  They usually did all right, and they'd be stronger and better fed than early farmers.  

But farmers would be able to support a higher population density - not as well-fed, but more numerous.  Over time and with additional development, this would be enough to displace hunter/gatherers in most of the world, but that time isn't here yet.  

Farmers would have a very small number of crops - since travel isn't extensive and crops are adapted to a particular climate, they move slowly from one area to another.  So one area might have chickpeas and another might have wheat, but you might not have a place with both (at least, not yet).  

Domesticated animals might exist - but the big ones are least likely to be around.  Dogs and chickens might be among the first.  Pigs and cows are harder to raise when food resources are so limited - keep in mind that a pig eats much more than you get out of it - that's only a good thing if it's not eating your food.  Cows can work because they eat grass (things that people don't eat), but unless game has become scarce, hunting will probably be preferable to animal husbandry.  

For bronze weapons, rather than making it 'better', consider allowing more items.  Ie, you can have bronze swords, now.  You can also have bronze armor (no more than breastplate).  But a bronze axe and a stone axe?  They should be equivalent.

Do you want your stone age to be Neolithic or earlier? Your best bet for an overview is to read the relevant Wikipedia article.

8000 BC during the tail end of the Neolihic was a time of small villages and maybe a town in the thousands if conditions were right. They had a rich culture, and society wasn't as stratified. Elsewhere in the world and earlier were hunter gatherers which had a lot of free time and had a rich culture but little in the way of material goods, but their margin of survival for individuals was pretty thin.

Throughout the late Neolithic and into the Bronze Age there was tension between the settled farmers, pastoralists and nomad (on foot at this time, no horses). Due to their varying ways of life.

Meso-America ended up with quite a bit of food without iron plows. And many a book would term them "stone age" in terms of most tool usage. Agriculture can follow more than one successful path as can be seen, however.

The first city over a million was Rome during late Bronze, early Iron (granted it was due to tax policies favoring citizens inside Rome proper and thus ballooning the city to frightful mob levels. but it lasted long enough.)

Tribal, nomadic pastoralists in the Arabian peninsula ended up through theosophic revelation, and an alternative to burdensome tax structures of the Byzantines and Sassanids, ended up creating a heavily urban cosmopolitan society, one that founded several large cities with greater than 5 story "high rise" buildings in places like Morocco, Yemen, etc.

We could do this all day... Assumed development pattern guidelines are just that, guidelines. And dealing with the land of pretend, trying to work bottom up organic design just sounds like a recipe for frustration to me.

And instead of pointing you to a library, Lexis Nexis, etc. to DYI your research yourself, it'd help if you gave me an idea of what you want the dials to be for this stone age setting. You really have a lot of leeway, especially with the complete wild card "magic" thrown in. And with the "ruins of an ancient civilization" trope literally littering FR 1e grey box, those dials have a huge range to spin.

I'm going to have to go back and look closer at the Days of Thunder in the books. I'd assume Elven and Dwarven empires should be dominant -- which totally blows any useful "stone age human" tropes to smithereens. I wonder if Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic can help you here? Is that pre- or post- Days of Thunder?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;585334Lot of good questions.

First off, weapons should be roughly the same effectiveness as the 'standard' counterparts.  A stone axe can be about as deadly as a steel axe, so spending a lot of time adjusting those things isn't usually worth it.  If you're going to have 'steel items' at all, just give them the ability to ignore a certain amount of armor or natural armor.  

A lot of weapons require more advanced techniques than might be possible.  Stone swords just won't exist.  You might see a macuahuitl - a wooden weapon with shark's teeth or obsidian bits along the length to give a cutting edge.  But keep the weapons simple and you're fine.

Obviously, you wouldn't have the same kinds of armor.  Metal armors just wouldn't exist.  You could use hide - but be reluctant to include other types.  You might want to consider 'piecemeal' armor rules so bracers or belts might add a small armor bonus.  The 2nd edition Complete Fighter has rules along those lines.  

I won't be using AD&D2e (haven't played it in almost two decades), but those are some relevant points. Indeed attempting to differentiate between materials is a recipe for frustration and over-complication. Besides, if you have, for example, magically-enhanced stone that doesn't crack or chip, your stone axe is every bit as deadly as a copper, bronze or iron one.

I had a suspicion armour wouldn't really be a thing - maybe hides, definitely shields, but that's about it. As far as foes go, the sarrukh shock-troops will be magically-engineered, so they'll have natural armour rather than wearing it. Though yuan-ti officers/mages might wear some.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;585334As far as food goes - hunter/gatherers tended to have a better life than early farmers.  They usually did all right, and they'd be stronger and better fed than early farmers.  

But farmers would be able to support a higher population density - not as well-fed, but more numerous.  Over time and with additional development, this would be enough to displace hunter/gatherers in most of the world, but that time isn't here yet.  

Farmers would have a very small number of crops - since travel isn't extensive and crops are adapted to a particular climate, they move slowly from one area to another.  So one area might have chickpeas and another might have wheat, but you might not have a place with both (at least, not yet).  

Domesticated animals might exist - but the big ones are least likely to be around.  Dogs and chickens might be among the first.  Pigs and cows are harder to raise when food resources are so limited - keep in mind that a pig eats much more than you get out of it - that's only a good thing if it's not eating your food.  Cows can work because they eat grass (things that people don't eat), but unless game has become scarce, hunting will probably be preferable to animal husbandry.  

For bronze weapons, rather than making it 'better', consider allowing more items.  Ie, you can have bronze swords, now.  You can also have bronze armor (no more than breastplate).  But a bronze axe and a stone axe?  They should be equivalent.

As below, I think there's a nice, natural conflict there about people who stay in one place farming, and those who follow herds/rove around. Cattle bring in instance conflict over possession of them and the lands that support them.

Would there be much reason for a PC to come from a farming community? I could imagine, for example, someone who's broken a social taboo and been banished, but would they be able to keep up with a hunter-gatherer type? They'd probably be shorter and less athletic. And possibly lacking in necessary skills to contribute to the group.

Quote from: estar;585335Do you want your stone age to be Neolithic or earlier? Your best bet for an overview is to read the relevant Wikipedia article.

8000 BC during the tail end of the Neolihic was a time of small villages and maybe a town in the thousands if conditions were right. They had a rich culture, and society wasn't as stratified. Elsewhere in the world and earlier were hunter gatherers which had a lot of free time and had a rich culture but little in the way of material goods, but their margin of survival for individuals was pretty thin.

Throughout the late Neolithic and into the Bronze Age there was tension between the settled farmers, pastoralists and nomad (on foot at this time, no horses). Due to their varying ways of life.

Having a quick read on Wikipedia, definitely not earlier than Neolithic. I think that tension you allude (the so-called Neolithic Revolution) to makes a nice built-in conflict at the edges of the action.

It also supports a wide range of societal types, since settled, agricultural communities are becoming an established (and growing) alternative to hunter-gatherer lifestyles.

About horses, would they be better suited to settled or nomadic peoples?

Quote from: Opaopajr;585337Meso-America ended up with quite a bit of food without iron plows. And many a book would term them "stone age" in terms of most tool usage. Agriculture can follow more than one successful path as can be seen, however.

The first city over a million was Rome during late Bronze, early Iron (granted it was due to tax policies favoring citizens inside Rome proper and thus ballooning the city to frightful mob levels. but it lasted long enough.)

Tribal, nomadic pastoralists in the Arabian peninsula ended up through theosophic revelation, and an alternative to burdensome tax structures of the Byzantines and Sassanids, ended up creating a heavily urban cosmopolitan society, one that founded several large cities with greater than 5 story "high rise" buildings in places like Morocco, Yemen, etc.

We could do this all day... Assumed development pattern guidelines are just that, guidelines. And dealing with the land of pretend, trying to work bottom up organic design just sounds like a recipe for frustration to me.

And instead of pointing you to a library, Lexis Nexis, etc. to DYI your research yourself, it'd help if you gave me an idea of what you want the dials to be for this stone age setting. You really have a lot of leeway, especially with the complete wild card "magic" thrown in. And with the "ruins of an ancient civilization" trope literally littering FR 1e grey box, those dials have a huge range to spin.

I'm trying not to pre-suppose too much, which is why such a broad opening scope. I want to develop a lot of this in discussion with my players, rather than turn up with a near-complete setting.

But some of the key things I have in mind:

• All the PCs are stone age humans; I expect most will be from hunter-gatherer tribes and have that sort of "barbarian" theme to them.
• The primary conflict is with the remnant of the Sarrukh Empire, which was reptilian. Their ruins are probably all over the place, but there won't be any dungeon-delving.
• The Sarrukh remnant raids human lands for slaves (who are also food); their technological superiority and use of magic means they are often the dominant ones.
• I'm vaguely imagining the game to be centred around some sort of raid into Sarrukh lands or else driving them out of the PC's homelands. Or perhaps overthrowing some reptilian despot who's set themselves up as tyrant over a large number of humans.
• Humans don't have arcane magic, ie no human mages/sorcerors. Arcane magic is the evil stuff the reptilians use.
• There's a world of spirits/little gods that humans are involved with and is probably the source of their magic.
• All that said, I'm aiming for a much lower level of magic than is D&D-standard. No magic items for one (at least the humans don't have any).
• Big (otherwise natural) animals are a threat. Cave bears, saber-toothed tigers, big wolves, giant apes and so on.

I wonder if Meso-America might be a good source to draw heavily upon to avoid the usual fantasy European-isms?

Quote from: Opaopajr;585337I'm going to have to go back and look closer at the Days of Thunder in the books. I'd assume Elven and Dwarven empires should be dominant -- which totally blows any useful "stone age human" tropes to smithereens. I wonder if Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic can help you here? Is that pre- or post- Days of Thunder?

This is a long time before Netheril, and indeed one of the reasons I chose it is that it pre-dates the existence of elves or dwarves on Toril (dragons don't exist yet, and the giants aren't really around either). This allows a genuine departure from all the Tolkeinesque themes into something properly sword and sorcery, where there's humans and other, and all the PCs are human.

There's no elves or dwarves to have empires; the only empire is a fallen reptilian one (with a smaller, but still powerful successor state in the hands of the yuan-ti).

Returning to a point above, one of the main areas becomes Maztica - ie D&D Aztec empire with the serials filed off.

Quote from: Kiero;585343

• The Sarrukh remnant raids human lands for slaves (who are also food); their technological superiority and use of magic means they are often the dominant ones.
• I'm vaguely imagining the game to be centred around some sort of raid into Sarrukh lands or else driving them out of the PC's homelands. Or perhaps overthrowing some reptilian despot who's set themselves up as tyrant over a large number of humans.
• Humans don't have arcane magic, ie no human mages/sorcerors. Arcane magic is the evil stuff the reptilians use.
• There's a world of spirits/little gods that humans are involved with and is probably the source of their magic.
• All that said, I'm aiming for a much lower level of magic than is D&D-standard. No magic items for one (at least the humans don't have any).
• Big (otherwise natural) animals are a threat. Cave bears, saber-toothed tigers, big wolves, giant apes and so on.

What about trimming even the clerical/druidic magic back to just 1st level spells? Maybe the reptile people have level 1 magic spells, but not clerical magic - maybe the reptile people especially want to eat human clerics, because they think they can "get a soul" that way?

Quote from: Lynn;585345What about trimming even the clerical/druidic magic back to just 1st level spells? Maybe the reptile people have level 1 magic spells, but not clerical magic - maybe the reptile people especially want to eat human clerics, because they think they can "get a soul" that way?

Given the massive magical power of the Sarrukh (even their inheritors will have a lot), paring the human magics back would put them at an even greater disadvantage. They'll be underdogs in this setup anyway, that might be taking it too far.

The reptile people have inherited what's left of a once-great continent-spanning reptilian empire that collapsed in on itself. War without and civil strife did them in.

I think that's an interesting place to approach things.  With the collapse of the Sarrukh empire, despite their technical superiority, you might want to consider an 'ice age' type of situation.  Essentially, the Sarrukh, being cold-blooded, have been forced further and further from their traditional homelands.  Human tribes, mostly founded by escaped slaves and their descendents have retreated into the glacial tundra.  Since farmers aren't a major part of your story, hunter-gatherers are dominant - with perhaps some caribou-herding pastoralists.  Of course, with the frozen lands to retreat to, the humans have some protected places to stage a multi-generational conflict with the Sarrukh.  The Sarrukh may raid deep into human lands for slaves and food, but they're not interested in occupying the territory.  And of course, PCs have every reason to raid into Sarrukh controlled lands - to retrieve captives from their tribe, retrieve technology, and of course, destroy their enemies.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;585349I think that's an interesting place to approach things.  With the collapse of the Sarrukh empire, despite their technical superiority, you might want to consider an 'ice age' type of situation.  Essentially, the Sarrukh, being cold-blooded, have been forced further and further from their traditional homelands.  Human tribes, mostly founded by escaped slaves and their descendents have retreated into the glacial tundra.  Since farmers aren't a major part of your story, hunter-gatherers are dominant - with perhaps some caribou-herding pastoralists.  Of course, with the frozen lands to retreat to, the humans have some protected places to stage a multi-generational conflict with the Sarrukh.  The Sarrukh may raid deep into human lands for slaves and food, but they're not interested in occupying the territory.  And of course, PCs have every reason to raid into Sarrukh controlled lands - to retrieve captives from their tribe, retrieve technology, and of course, destroy their enemies.

That's not a bad idea, a sort of climate-change apocalypse on the surviving reptilians forcing them to relinquish some of their holdings in lands now too cold for them to keep. It doesn't even need to be properly frozen, just colder than they like without the great weather-controlling magics functioning any more.

Quote from: Kiero;585343About horses, would they be better suited to settled or nomadic peoples?

This article on domestication has a timeline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse

Honesty the best book that summarizes technological progress is GURPS Low Tech. Get the version for fourth edition. There are also three companion PDFs on e23 that are very good. Aside from weapon stats and armor stats it is pretty generic and usable with any RPG.

I did some research on this for a revision of Torg's Tech chart. Here's some material that may be of help. This covers the period between (roughly) 2 Million Years Ago - 12,000 B.C. (Understand all cultures developed at different rates, and many lagged or surged in specific areas.)

Fire can be tended, but not created. Stoneworking allows the improvement of natural caves, including inlaid stone floors, walled entrances, and fire pits. Painting using natural dyes (fruit juice, animal blood, etc.) is possible.

Stone, wood, bone, or other naturally-occurring materials can be refined into tools through processes like knapping, whittling, or hardening with fire. Vines or other cord-like plant fibers can be twined into rope.

Later, lashing and knot-tying are possible, lean-tos made from lashed wood (or other natural materials) can be constructed. Rafts, made from lashed logs, appear.

Advanced toolmaking methods develop later, including the use of rope and tendons to attach two components together. Examples of such composite tools include a wooden spear with a stone head, wood-hafted stone axes, and bolas (two or three rocks attached with a thong). Spear throwers (or atlatls) are also possible.

Specialized tools, such as needles and harpoons, can be constructed. Bone tools can also develop. With the development of tools, hunting and spear-fishing become possible.

Selfbows, bows made from single lengths of wood (the “stave”) can be developed, seeing use in both hunting and combat. Arrowheads are commonly made from flint (or other stones), but blunt wooden heads or bone heads are also possible. Later, techniques to fire-harden stone arrowheads is developed, as well as fletching (attaching feathers to the shaft, to stabilize the arrow in flight, making the weapon more accurate.)

The use of natural containers develops, including seashells, coconuts, or thick-shelled eggs (from ostriches, for example). These containers allow vegetables to be gathered and stored (but not cultivated). These two give rise to the classic “hunter-gatherer” nomad lifestyle. Lamps are possible, consisting of natural containers that are filled with moss soaked in animal fat.

Folk medicine gradually develops as various plants are identified as poisonous, edible, or medically useful. Herbal lore isn’t distinct from religious or superstitious beliefs (in in cosms where such beliefs exist), and is usually practiced by spiritual leaders or hedge mages. Surviving a disease or an infection is largely a matter of chance. Treatment of wounds and broken bones is possible, but the techniques are primitive. Surgery, including trepanning (removing portions of the skull) is possible.

Hides can be collected from animal carcasses. After being scraped with stone tools (to remove blood vessels, fat, and bits of flesh) these can be worn for clothing. As these hides are uncured, they quickly begin to rot (how fast depends on climate and other factors). Smaller pieces of fur can be placed around the feet and secured with thin strips of hide or vines.

Later, methods to cure and tan hides can be discovered, allowing the production of leather. Leather is pliant, flexible, and soft, meaning it can be put to a number of uses, such as in clothing and huts or tents. Most importantly, leather is resistant to rotting. Slings are made from leather, and shields can be made from wooden frames covered in leather. New types of containers, including pouches, sacks, or water-bags, are also possible.

I also have an entry for Neolithic technology. I'll post it if the above suits your needs.

And, since you asked for it, Social developments of the same time period. (Again, based on research into revising the Social axiom of Torg.) The italicized portions are the summary of that time period. The rest of the text goes into more detail.

2 [Pre-Culture, 300,000 YA - 50,000 YA] —  “The nomadic family group (up to fifty individuals) emerges as the fundamental social unit. Language and behavioral norms are possible. Resources are shared on a communal basis. Barter between such groups is possible, including negotiation and haggling.”

The family group emerges as the fundamental social unit. This can range in size from the nuclear family (parents and offspring) to a small extended family of forty or fifty individuals.

These groups can share a language and behavioral norms (including roles and the division of labor). At this axiom level, roles—norms that apply to certain positions (“father” or “hunter”)—are implicit and fairly simple.

They are usually non-hierarchical, with no explicitly identified or traditional leadership roles (though one individual frequently wields more influence than anyone else). Violations of familial behavioral norms are typically punished with ostracism, physical punishment or, in extreme cases, banishment.

These family groups are nomadic, and subsist on hunting and gathering. Resources are produced and shared within the family on a communal basis. The resources produced are strictly functional, including food, tools (if available), and clothing. Ornamentation or jewelry is unknown, as is storytelling, music, humor, artwork, or gameplaying.

The conscious observation of obvious, periodic astronomical events (such as sunrise and sunset or the passing of seasons) is possible. This allows for the recognition of time, including the concepts of a past and future.

Deliberate burials of the deceased appear, indicating some notion of respect for the dead. Such burials do not include ceremonies, they are functional, though not crude.

Barter (trading of goods) between groups can occur, including negotiation or haggling. Trade from one group to another can form a chain that stretches across continents, allowing goods produced in one region to be traded group to group, until they arrive in a locale thousands of miles removed.

Nomadic groups are usually at war with neighboring groups. All hunters are also warriors, the majority of whom will be wounded or killed in any given clash.

3 [Dawn of Culture, 50,000 YA - 10,000 BC] — “The fundamental characteristics of culture emerge: art, ornamentation, music, burial ceremonies, game play, humor, storytelling, and complex norms. Family groups can now include up to 150 individuals.”

“Personal items are possible, though limited to those which are not critical for survival. Storytelling, including myths and legends, is possible. Rote memorization and recitation is possible. Tally sticks or other token systems can develop. It is now possible to train animals, but only those that are amenable to training (such as dogs or goats).”

The universal characteristics of culture emerge in a final form. These include self ornamentation (with pigments or jewelry), figurative art (such as painting hunting scenes or sculpture), music, burial ceremonies, games (including sports), humor, and storytelling. Comprehensive, defined social norms and roles coalesce. The primary unit of society is still the nomadic hunter-gatherer band, such bands can have up to 150 individuals.

Though survival resources are still shared communally, personal items that are not shared with the band are possible and acceptable (they do not violate social norms). These personal items are limited to items not crucial to survival, such as jewelry, collections of pigments, personal tools, clothing, etc. When an individual dies, these are often buried with the individual.

Stories of actual and mythical past events (there is no distinction made between the two) are possible. These stories consist of a sequence of successive events which lack an overall structure (a plot or a narrative) or even a coherent relationship to one another. Stories can only be shared verbally as permanent records are not possible.

Stories frequently change (sometimes dramatically) as they are relayed from person to person. In contrast, important knowledge is often memorized and recited by rote.

Burial ceremonies emerge, including the presence of “grave goods” and the ornamentation of the body. It is now possible to train animals, but only those that are amenable to training (such as dogs or goats).

Tally sticks or other token systems can develop, allowing a permanent record of a transaction, a list of animals or other owned goods, or recording lunar cycles. Observed astronomical events can be tracked, allowing for the first calendars. Enumeration (the first form of mathematics) is possible, including addition and subtraction.

(Again, I have more information on the Neolithic period (10,000 - 5000 BC). Let me know if you want to see that, if the above hasn't driven you into stupefaction.)

Also, GURPS Low Tech covers the period in question, and should be an invaluable resource, sufficient to your needs.

A PDF of Low Tech is available from e23 for (IIRC) $7.99.

Check out the Sláine graphic novels for a very entertaining take on what stone age society and tech might have looked like. Noble savages, not so much.

Quote from: Kiero;585347Given the massive magical power of the Sarrukh (even their inheritors will have a lot), paring the human magics back would put them at an even greater disadvantage. They'll be underdogs in this setup anyway, that might be taking it too far.

The reptile people have inherited what's left of a once-great continent-spanning reptilian empire that collapsed in on itself. War without and civil strife did them in.

What I mean is pare them both back to 1st level. Maybe reptiles still have access to a bunch of both superior and magical equipment to make it seem like they actually have more.

I strongly recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Cartoon-History-Universe-Vol-Pt-1/dp/0385265204

for a great overview of early human cultures, and the cultural changes that came with various new technologies (farming, domestication, bronze, etc). It covers up through Alexander, so you get discussion of Ancient Greek, Sumerian, and Egyptian culture as well.

Quote from: Kiero;585343This is a long time before Netheril, and indeed one of the reasons I chose it is that it pre-dates the existence of elves or dwarves on Toril (dragons don't exist yet, and the giants aren't really around either). This allows a genuine departure from all the Tolkeinesque themes into something properly sword and sorcery, where there's humans and other, and all the PCs are human.

There's no elves or dwarves to have empires; the only empire is a fallen reptilian one (with a smaller, but still powerful successor state in the hands of the yuan-ti).

Returning to a point above, one of the main areas becomes Maztica - ie D&D Aztec empire with the serials filed off.

Oh ho, this is interesting! No one but the Yuan Ti and humans? That changes things considerably.

Total screwball idea, but what about parallels to Gorka Morka? Humans revering the green skins because they are so technologically advanced that they paint their face green and try to adopt some of their ways. Yuan Ti are definitely alien, but humanoid enough for opposable digits and the complexities of actual language. Humans would obviously try to pick up anything useful and might even idolize them.

Quote from: Kiero;585343I'm trying not to pre-suppose too much, which is why such a broad opening scope. I want to develop a lot of this in discussion with my players, rather than turn up with a near-complete setting.

But some of the key things I have in mind:

• All the PCs are stone age humans; I expect most will be from hunter-gatherer tribes and have that sort of "barbarian" theme to them.
• The primary conflict is with the remnant of the Sarrukh Empire, which was reptilian. Their ruins are probably all over the place, but there won't be any dungeon-delving.
• The Sarrukh remnant raids human lands for slaves (who are also food); their technological superiority and use of magic means they are often the dominant ones.
• I'm vaguely imagining the game to be centred around some sort of raid into Sarrukh lands or else driving them out of the PC's homelands. Or perhaps overthrowing some reptilian despot who's set themselves up as tyrant over a large number of humans.
• Humans don't have arcane magic, ie no human mages/sorcerors. Arcane magic is the evil stuff the reptilians use.
• There's a world of spirits/little gods that humans are involved with and is probably the source of their magic.
• All that said, I'm aiming for a much lower level of magic than is D&D-standard. No magic items for one (at least the humans don't have any).
• Big (otherwise natural) animals are a threat. Cave bears, saber-toothed tigers, big wolves, giant apes and so on.

I wonder if Meso-America might be a good source to draw heavily upon to avoid the usual fantasy European-isms?

Meso-America wouldn't be a good source to draw from; it's way too advanced for your parameters.

What you want is a scattered low population of hunter gatherers barely able to glean a living off of the land, not having mastered their environment to sustain a real resistance.

The best you could do is perhaps some pattern off of Siberian, Northern Territories arctic nomads, or even older, the San of the Kalahari. You'd get Shamans, small nomadic populations, and a heavy cap on tech development/spread. But you'd also have to lose most of their advanced boats and harpoons (you'll still have nets, gaffs, spears, and fishhooks). You'll have complex relations with nucleic family-clan groups. If you do have war, it generally will have more ceremonial fighting involved, an abstracted method to count victory (instead of outright genocide or conquest), and survivor repayment for any lives lost to prevent further retaliation.

Perhaps the magic of the Sarrukh and the humans could be different, but along some more strongly thematised lines than the usual (and IMO lackluster) Cleric/M.U..
Say, being reptilians and slavers, the Sarrukh spell list could revolve around illusions, control, terror and mental domination. In contrast, human magic - probably shamanic in nature? - could be more physical and play to the primal elements and warm-blooded vigour: fire and ice magic, the aid of mammalian animals, hope, temporary enhancement of physical ability, etc..

Quote from: Opaopajr;585730Oh ho, this is interesting! No one but the Yuan Ti and humans? That changes things considerably.

Total screwball idea, but what about parallels to Gorka Morka? Humans revering the green skins because they are so technologically advanced that they paint their face green and try to adopt some of their ways. Yuan Ti are definitely alien, but humanoid enough for opposable digits and the complexities of actual language. Humans would obviously try to pick up anything useful and might even idolize them.

Not quite. Within the reptilian empire, the yuan-ti are merely top of the pile of a multi-racial mix of other reptilians - lizard men, troglodytes, etc. There are also other "creator races" about, some avian, another amphibian, another fey.

But none of those are really relevant here, because I'm focusing on human v reptile.

Quote from: Opaopajr;585730Meso-America wouldn't be a good source to draw from; it's way too advanced for your parameters.

What you want is a scattered low population of hunter gatherers barely able to glean a living off of the land, not having mastered their environment to sustain a real resistance.

The best you could do is perhaps some pattern off of Siberian, Northern Territories arctic nomads, or even older, the San of the Kalahari. You'd get Shamans, small nomadic populations, and a heavy cap on tech development/spread. But you'd also have to lose most of their advanced boats and harpoons (you'll still have nets, gaffs, spears, and fishhooks). You'll have complex relations with nucleic family-clan groups. If you do have war, it generally will have more ceremonial fighting involved, an abstracted method to count victory (instead of outright genocide or conquest), and survivor repayment for any lives lost to prevent further retaliation.

I could see those types of hunter-gatherers on the fringe, in the borderlands between the reptiles and the area populated by humans. But further away where humans might be able to develop their own civilisations, there's nothing wrong with things being more advanced.

Well I was thinking of making a fantasy Australia out of FR's continent of Osse, and planned to use various reptile folks to supplant the other humanoid races. (I also planned for a Dingo and Taz Devil based "goblinoid" races.) But I also planned to make non-metal based advanced human societies as the predominant PCs. So it sounds like a thought is among the ether and we're both coming to a similar creative point independently.

I'm making nomadic, densely urban, social egalitarian, vegetarian, eco-friendly, sorta high-tech Aboriginal societies. And their material foundations (their "[Material] Age" if you will) are something that will leave little archaeological trace, essentially being decomposable. Do you have an idea where you want your dials to generally lean towards on any of these factors? Doing so could help you and your players brainstorm setting creation faster.

Many good posts in this thread. I would reiterate that magic needs to be scaled way back or it acts as a substitute for technology and no more stone age feel. I'd immediately rule out most spell where the material components are post Neolithic.

"Attack spell need rock! Young one, give me."
"No, not that one. The dusty looking one. The one good for sharp cutting rock."
"Yeah, but need be round. This has chip in it. You careless with rocks."
"No, not that one. That from beach! Need round river rock."
"Bigger! That's pebble rock! That for just-for-looks big big fire."
"Oh forget it, just throw rocks at lizard man. It faster."

Quote from: Premier;585734Perhaps the magic of the Sarrukh and the humans could be different, but along some more strongly thematised lines than the usual (and IMO lackluster) Cleric/M.U..
Say, being reptilians and slavers, the Sarrukh spell list could revolve around illusions, control, terror and mental domination. In contrast, human magic - probably shamanic in nature? - could be more physical and play to the primal elements and warm-blooded vigour: fire and ice magic, the aid of mammalian animals, hope, temporary enhancement of physical ability, etc..

A nice idea, but I'm not about to rewrite the entire magic system to accomodate this. Simplicity is the order of the day.

Quote from: Fiasco;586116Many good posts in this thread. I would reiterate that magic needs to be scaled way back or it acts as a substitute for technology and no more stone age feel. I'd immediately rule out most spell where the material components are post Neolithic.

I'm not using D&D of any edition, so components aren't a terribly relevant disciminator for spells.

In any case, the real means of magic acting as a substitute for technology is where there is common arcane magic and investment of it into items is easy and/or there are long-term effects possible.