If you designed a fantasy equiavelent of the WoD, what monster types would you use instead of vamps, werewolves, mages (hmm), Prometheans, Mummies, Gypsies, Changelines, Ghosts, even Hunters? (I think that's all of them).
I think we can all agree that making gypsies into a "supernatural race" in the oWoD was a pretty darn horrible design decision which shouldn't be repeated.
Check out Monte Cook's World of Darkness. Assuming that you like the D20 System, you can inject World of Darkness creatures into a fantasy setting.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;285390If you designed a fantasy equiavelent of the WoD, what monster types would you use instead of vamps, werewolves, mages (hmm), Prometheans, Mummies, Gypsies, Changelines, Ghosts, even Hunters? (I think that's all of them).
The original Vampire clans are mostly fantasy types, in their 'look' if not their abilities:
Gangrel: barbarians
Tremere: wizards
Toreador: decadent nobles
Settites: evil priests (specifically like Thulsa Doom in the Conan film)
and so on.
There already WAS a "Middle Age"/fantasy version of World of Darkness - anyone remember White Wolf's DARK AGES line?
It wasn't that long ago.
Hell, we still have a handful of those books lingering on the store's shelves.
- Ed C.
Quote from: GrimGent;285392I think we can all agree that making gypsies into a "supernatural race" in the oWoD was a pretty darn horrible design decision which shouldn't be repeated.
I may be a bit crazy, but I think I prefer the magic gypsies of both the WoD and conventional mytholigizing to the sadly mundane 'illiterate migrant workers of europe' that is the vast majority of real gypsie-dom.
Then again, I also think it would be cool to have stories grant me cool mystic powers on account of being a "special race"... so I'm not entirely certain why any Rom would bitch about the typical and WoD depiction.
Of course, I also don't see any issue with being treated like the little yellow sex-god of war that I obviously am... so I'm obviously not in the norm here.
Quote from: Spike;285503Then again, I also think it would be cool to have stories grant me cool mystic powers on account of being a "special race"... so I'm not entirely certain why any Rom would bitch about the typical and WoD depiction.
It just feels like including "Magic Negro" as a character splat, complete with every single stereotype that the writers manage to pile on the concept. Treating real-life ethnicities (or nationalities, or religions) like that simply isn't smart idea: you might as well, say, have the rules depict every PC from Canada as suave seducers because "Canadians speak French and French is the language of love." (This has nothing to do with me being part Romani, incidentally.)
Maybe so, but German is the language of porn.
I'm just sayin': Me personally? If I was a Canadian I don't think I'd object to a depiction of all Canadians being suave seducers, no matter how stupid the logic behind it.
Hell, I'd probably support it.
I should probably let this go, as this isn't really the forum to discuss the relevance of stereotypes, the harm of prejudicial attitudes and so forth. Undoubtedly the mystic negro, or the supernaturally sensitive gypsy, or for that matter the 'native american with a medicine man uncle' or what not are stereotypes, and as far as promoting understanding of people across cultural and racial divides they aren't particularly helpful. Yet they aren't particularly 'racist' in traditional definitions of the term, and certainly far less than the more acceptable depiction of the Irish (for example) as belligerant drunks. Why are the 'mystic gypsies' less acceptable than the Fianna werewolves? Or the Sons of Fenris as racist viking norsemen?
So riddle me this: Why is it acceptable to treat, in a supernaturally themed game, people from Ireland as mystically attuned bards by blood, when it is not acceptable in the same supernaturally themed game to treat gypsies as people gifted with second sight and in tune with the spiritual world?
Quote from: Spike;285523So riddle me this: Why is it acceptable to treat, in a supernaturally themed game, people from Ireland as mystically attuned bards by blood, when it is not acceptable in the same supernaturally themed game to treat gypsies as people gifted with second sight and in tune with the spiritual world?
If that same treatment is extended to
all the completely ordinary people from Ireland in general, then it makes just as little sense, of course. But if we are talking about, oh, a specific group of spiritual shapeshifters from Ireland, then it's safe to say that their fictional characteristics aren't going to tar all the Irish with the same brush. (The old
Werewolf was particularly bad when it came to cultural stereotyping, admittedly.) By way of comparison, there was no such thing as an "ordinary gypsy" in the oWoD: they were the mortal descendants of an ancient vampire.
Quote from: Spike;285523.....................
I should probably let this go, as this isn't really the forum to discuss the relevance of stereotypes, the harm of prejudicial attitudes and so forth. Undoubtedly the mystic negro, or the supernaturally sensitive gypsy, or for that matter the 'native american with a medicine man uncle' or what not are stereotypes, and as far as promoting understanding of people across cultural and racial divides th.....boy Spike can type!..........
Wasn't the cover and basis for a White Wolf Splatbook for their SCION RPG Line?
We got copies of that book in the store. Black woman, wearing a top hat with some kind of tailored outfit and voodoo- paraphernalia on her or around her.
- Ed C.
Quote from: GrimGent;285614If that same treatment is extended to all the completely ordinary people from Ireland in general, then it makes just as little sense, of course. But if we are talking about, oh, a specific group of spiritual shapeshifters from Ireland, then it's safe to say that their fictional characteristics aren't going to tar all the Irish with the same brush. (The old Werewolf was particularly bad when it came to cultural stereotyping, admittedly.) By way of comparison, there was no such thing as an "ordinary gypsy" in the oWoD: they were the mortal descendants of an ancient vampire.
And the Vampires were responsible for Rome defeating Carthage, and by extension the promulgation of Western Culture as we know it. It also explicitly established Cain and Able as fact, along with all that implies.
Aside from being a stereotype, what exactly is OFFENSIVE with the depiction of Gypsies as a supernaturally attuned people?
Note that, aside from the line specific tie in, this is a very common stereotype. If it is similarly offensive in the real world, how exactly is is more offensive than the much more permissable depiction of the Irish as belligerant drunkards?
I don't know about you but were I given a choice I'd rather 'my people' be inaccurately depicted as inherently spiritually attuned than alcoholics who love to fight.
Of course, were the depictions of the Rom in WW wholly accurate to the real world, undoubtedly people would be up in arms about how unflattering and even racist the WW crowd was in discussing the Gypsies... and all the idiot geekboys who are interested in mythologized gypsies would be upset that they were made 'uncool'.
I can only conclude that the only tenable position is to utterly ignore the existance of gypsies at all, to avoid the mythologized stereotype that is somehow 'racist', despite being flattering after a fashion, or making an unsellable product because there ain't nothin' sexy about 'em in real life... and then risk being accused of racism because there aren't any mention of them even where they are prevelant, thus 'writing them out' of the fiction...
Quote from: Koltar;285617Wasn't the cover and basis for a White Wolf Splatbook for their SCION RPG Line?
We got copies of that book in the store. Black woman, wearing a top hat with some kind of tailored outfit and voodoo- paraphernalia on her or around her.
- Ed C.
Yes. There is a voudon scion which happens to be a scantily clad black woman, and yes she gets the tophat covershot on one of the three fatsplats that make up the line.
By the standards that mystic gypsies are racist depictions.. Scion is full of fail. Norse berserkers and japanese ninja-girls, and black voodoo chicks... not a single cultural ethnic group is depicted as anything other than the sum of commonly held stereotypes.
Quote from: Koltar;285617We got copies of that book in the store. Black woman, wearing a top hat with some kind of tailored outfit and voodoo- paraphernalia on her or around her.
You're talking about
Scion: Demigod, although it's not a splatbook. That's one of the signature characters on the cover: Brigitte De La Croix, a daughter of Baron Samedi.
Quote from: Spike;285627Aside from being a stereotype, what exactly is OFFENSIVE with the depiction of Gypsies as a supernaturally attuned people?
In those terms, probably nothing; but the way in which WW went about it is roughly equal to making (for instance) all Italians demon-blooded. Besides, it's hard to romanticize in such a fashion someone that you see practically every day at the supermarket.
Oh, and the younger Roma I've known have generally been seriously pissed off by the idea that they could read anyone's palm, so I guess they'd take it more personally.
And yet the vast majority of the people decrying the 'racist' depiction of Gypsies in Vampire were not Roma, and of course one could accuse you of taking the limited sample size and blowing it into the idea that 'all roma are offended by'.
I'm sure there are plenty... lets go with Italians for this one... Italians who are annoyed when people ask them about Catholicism, or pasta.
I get annoyed when people ask me to shock them, not because I find the idea of shocking people abhorrent, but because idiot requests get annoying.
Thus, if I were a Rom I'd undoubtedly find people asking me to read their palms incredibly annoying... because idiots are annoying, not because palm reading is an offensive stereotype.
Bah. Move this to off topic.
Quote from: Spike;285647And yet the vast majority of the people decrying the 'racist' depiction of Gypsies in Vampire were not Roma, and of course one could accuse you of taking the limited sample size and blowing it into the idea that 'all roma are offended by'.
I'm not saying anything about all Roma. They do comprise, what, 0.2% of this country's population, though, so I've met quite a few of them.
Then again, the description in
WoD: Gypsies had little to do with the real world. These so-called "gypsies" were not entirely human and possessed magical powers based on the purity of their ancestral bloodlines, which they used to secretly control a considerable part of the world. We're not talking about some vague "mystic awareness" here (although they were naturally considered Awakened too), but actual sorcery that could enchant people and conjure knives out of thin air (apparently because everyone knows that gypsies always fight with knives). Essentially, they were supernatural creatures and descendants of monsters. By the same token, you could make Italians into hereditary lycanthropes because of a curse which fell on Romulus when he was suckled by a she-wolf, or some such thing.
What's offensive about WW's Gypsies? Well, it doesn't take a virulent WW-hater to figure that one out, dude. Imagine if they'd made a sourcebook called WoD:Jews, where the Jews were all secretly kabbalists who were descendants of a demon?
I mean, come on!!
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;285390If you designed a fantasy equiavelent of the WoD, what monster types would you use instead of vamps, werewolves, mages (hmm), Prometheans, Mummies, Gypsies, Changelines, Ghosts, even Hunters? (I think that's all of them).
That is all regular fantasy shit. I guess you could play kobolts or something.
Quote from: RPGPundit;285685Imagine if they'd made a sourcebook called WoD:Jews, where the Jews were all secretly kabbalists who were descendants of a demon?
Well, yes. It's not only that Roma were described as natural-born thieves and liars, but they actually had
special racial powers specifically for stealing and lying. And it's not that far from "Gypsy women can magically hypnotize men into obeying them by dancing in brightly coloured dresses" to "Jews gain double Willpower whenever they indulge their innate Greed."
Quote from: GrimGent;285719Well, yes. It's not only that Roma were described as natural-born thieves and liars, but they actually had special racial powers specifically for stealing and lying. And it's not that far from "Gypsy women can magically hypnotize men into obeying them by dancing in brightly coloured dresses" to "Jews gain double Willpower whenever they indulge their innate Greed."
See, if you'd started your entire point with that, we could have avoided an awful lot of argument. But no, you insisted that they were racially offensive because they had supernatural blood and spiritual powers.
Whup-dee-doo.
As for the 'decended from a vampire' tidbit, as I recall the gypsies in Vampire were decedents of the mortal woman who BECAME a powerful vampire (with the Gangrel OR the Ravnos (or both?) her vampiric decendents). I'm not sure where that is supposed to go as far as 'Racially insensitive'... are we implying that they have a natural tendancy to become bloodsucking fiends of the night?
Because if we are, I'm about 90% certain that 90% of all vampires in fiction, WW or otherwise, are white motherfuckers.
Quote from: Spike;285765See, if you'd started your entire point with that, we could have avoided an awful lot of argument. But no, you insisted that they were racially offensive because they had supernatural blood and spiritual powers.
What's the difference, since every single power that they had was in one way or another based on racial stereotypes ("the gypsy as a witch," "the gypsy as a thief," "the gypsy as a trickster," and so on), and the "Blood Potency" rating which fuelled those powers was even based on racial purity?
QuoteAs for the 'decended from a vampire' tidbit, as I recall the gypsies in Vampire were decedents of the mortal woman who BECAME a powerful vampire (with the Gangrel OR the Ravnos (or both?) her vampiric decendents).
Their bloodlines supposedly began with Lilith's daughter Daenna who ate from the Apple of Knowledge, became immortal, and married a vampire. The various gypsy families eventually became related to just about every supernatural group in the oWoD, though, from the werewolves to the fae.
Quote from: GrimGent;285769What's the difference, since every single power that they had was in one way or another based on racial stereotypes ("the gypsy as a witch," "the gypsy as a thief," "the gypsy as a trickster," and so on), and the "Blood Potency" rating which fuelled those powers was even based on racial purity?
Um... because there is a huge difference between the idea of 'we're a special people with special powers' and 'we're all mystic criminals'? Just a thought man. I've never claimed specific knowledge here, and I haven't defended the mystic criminal aspect for a reason: I am not an expert on the WW Gypsies, which I meant to point out with a question in the first post I made. Mea culpa.
Now, thats not to say I think its impossible to use a mythologized racial group (and this can lead to a spin off regarding the term 'gypsies' to cover a racial group vs the actual ethnic grouping of Roma.... but I vaguely recall that WW specifically tied the Gypsies to the Rom in the one book entry I read over a decade ago...) as mystic criminals without being inherently racist, but that the challenge of doing so, and the current culture of excessive sensitivity makes it far more challenging than it could possibly be worth.
QuoteTheir bloodlines supposedly began with Lilith's daughter Daenna who ate from the Apple of Knowledge, became immortal, and married a vampire. The various gypsy families eventually became related to just about every supernatural group in the oWoD, though, from the werewolves to the fae.
Again, the level to depth you've applied to researching this (as WW never lays out that level of detail and simplicity in a single place...) is greater than mine. Most references to them that I recall simply stated they were the mortal decendants of a woman who later became the head of a vampire clan.
Regardless, it takes more than a somewhat funky mythological origin to call it racially insensitive. The romans were proud to be the decendents of dudes who suckled from a shewolf, and at least one greek state was said to have decended from ants raised up to be men as I recall. I'm sure if I took the time to really think about it I could come up with far more examples of 'strange origin myths' for real world cultures that people were actually proud of. Now, if the portrayal was such that all gypsies were automatically damned because they were decended of this Deanna character... then you'd have something. By itself? Big fat Meh.
Your last line about being tied to every other supernatural critter? Thats bragging rights, man. Never met a black dude who thought calls about them having bigger dicks than anyone else was insulting, did you? Ditto the gypsies being the supernatural equivilents. Stereotyping? Yeah. So?
Quote from: Spike;285777Now, thats not to say I think its impossible to use a mythologized racial group (and this can lead to a spin off regarding the term 'gypsies' to cover a racial group vs the actual ethnic grouping of Roma.... but I vaguely recall that WW specifically tied the Gypsies to the Rom in the one book entry I read over a decade ago...) as mystic criminals without being inherently racist, but that the challenge of doing so, and the current culture of excessive sensitivity makes it far more challenging than it could possibly be worth.
Technically, it could be argued that the Roma from real life didn't even exist as an ethnic group in the oWoD: there was a bundle of familiar stereotypes under the same name in their place, but as said, those had precious little to do with anyone that we might actually know. It really wouldn't taken much for White Wolf to replace them with some completely fictional faction instead of the "Illuminati in painted wagons" caricature that they ended up using, but because they didn't... well... it's no wonder that
WoD: Gypsies is commonly acknowledged as one of the very worst supplements they have ever published. It simply showed poor judgment on Pale Pooch's part.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;285390If you designed a fantasy equiavelent of the WoD, what monster types would you use instead of vamps, werewolves, mages (hmm), Prometheans, Mummies, Gypsies, Changelines, Ghosts, even Hunters? (I think that's all of them).
That's not exactly an answer to your question but I was very disappointed that White Wolf had ended the historical side line of the oWoD. Four of the five core games got sister games set in other times:
Vampire: Dark Ages, Werewolf: Wild West, Mage: Sorcerer's Crusade, Wraith: The Great War. Changeling would have been next in line but WW decided against it. I was hoping that it would be WW's take on the fantasy genre, something like a cross between Jack Vance's
Lyonesse and
Dragon Warrior's World of Legend (with probably a sprinkle of the French
Hurlements/Chimères).
And yet, there
was a WW fantasy game that gave us a glimpse into what the alternate historical treatment of Changeling might have looked like: the CCG
Arcadia: The Wyld Hunt.
So my choice would be
Changeling: Arcadia.
Quote from: Spike;285777Your last line about being tied to every other supernatural critter? Thats bragging rights, man. Never met a black dude who thought calls about them having bigger dicks than anyone else was insulting, did you? Ditto the gypsies being the supernatural equivilents. Stereotyping? Yeah. So?
Personally, I think that positive racial stereotypes are still problematic. Logically, claiming racial strengths is really no different than claiming racial weaknesses. i.e. If you say that Asians are good at math and science, and blacks are good at sports -- then you are effectively saying that Asians aren't good at sports, and blacks aren't good at math and science.
And yes, I have met many people who are insulted at so-called positive stereotypes. Saying that Jews are good with money isn't generally considered praise, and for that matter many people dislike the "magic negro" figure that often turns up in stories.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;286131And yet, there was a WW fantasy game that gave us a glimpse into what the alternate historical treatment of Changeling might have looked like: the CCG Arcadia: The Wyld Hunt.
Don't forget that WW also published as part of their Dark Ages line
DA: Fae, which by all accounts focused more heavily on the original roots of fairies in mythology and folktales.
Quote from: jhkim;286141Personally, I think that positive racial stereotypes are still problematic. Logically, claiming racial strengths is really no different than claiming racial weaknesses. i.e. If you say that Asians are good at math and science, and blacks are good at sports -- then you are effectively saying that Asians aren't good at sports, and blacks aren't good at math and science.
And yes, I have met many people who are insulted at so-called positive stereotypes. Saying that Jews are good with money isn't generally considered praise, and for that matter many people dislike the "magic negro" figure that often turns up in stories.
And yet, without pausing for thought I can think of a large number of people that promote similar positive stereotypes for their own race/nationality with pride.
I also know plenty of people that are proud of their 'negative' stereotypes, like the Irish alcholism that I've mentioned here.... I didn't pull it out of thin air.
Equating stereotyping with racism is something of a slippery slope argument. The human brain is wired to fill in gaps in knowledge by grouping things according to types. Don't know Mr. O'Malley very well? He probably would like some beer if you invite him over for dinner, and he may have relatives who are cops. You could be utterly wrong, but if you never actually invite Mr. O'Malley over for dinner you'll never know and it won't hurt you or him at all.
Its when you allow that 'gap filling' to overtake your ability to fill in the blanks with real data that you run into problems, or conversely if you refuse to use it. The Gypsies have a reputation, a stereotype, as theives and conmen, and in fact many of them are. Knowing this, you are yourself against common theft and even being conned when you wander through neighborhoods where they are common. Is it unfair to the Rom who aren't thieves and conmen? Certainly. Its also stupid to go the opposite direction and flash your cash everywhere you go and assume that guy trying to sell you a bridge actually owns the fucker just so you don't accidentally reinforce the stereotype.
Sure, some stereotypes of either sort are sort of stupid and don't serve any purpose, either way.
You know, since Changeling: The Lost disposed of that whole "wonders of magic are fading away and the banality of the modern world is crushing all the pretty fairies" approach which dominated Dreaming, it would be easy enough to run a medieval campaign in it. Faerie is effectively timeless, after all, and a thousand years ago the Fae were the same solipsistic sociopath bastards that they are in the present day. All you'd have to do with replace a few of the more inappropriate skills (Computer, Drive, Firearms), and take into account that changelings in the past wouldn't have had the communications technology for an effective support network across great distances, rendering them more isolated from each other. On the other hand, the lack of an omnipresent ID verification system would also make it easier to blend into the local society.
I was actually thinking more of a setting a bit like Midnight but where players were 'rebel' bad guys - orcs, dark elves or whatever - who had some reason to rebel against the 'greater evil' in charge.
Quote from: jhkim;286141Personally, I think that positive racial stereotypes are still problematic. Logically, claiming racial strengths is really no different than claiming racial weaknesses. i.e. If you say that Asians are good at math and science, and blacks are good at sports -- then you are effectively saying that Asians aren't good at sports, and blacks aren't good at math and science.
And yes, I have met many people who are insulted at so-called positive stereotypes. Saying that Jews are good with money isn't generally considered praise, and for that matter many people dislike the "magic negro" figure that often turns up in stories.
I agree that "positive" stereotypes can often still be problematic in terms of prejudices, but its important in this case to note that what WW did goes BEYOND that. Because it was essentially suggesting that the Roma
weren't really/fully human, which I would think is by definition "Dehumanizing" no matter how many kewl powerz you give them.
That's a bigger deal than saying "they're good at sports".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;286372I was actually thinking more of a setting a bit like Midnight but where players were 'rebel' bad guys - orcs, dark elves or whatever - who had some reason to rebel against the 'greater evil' in charge.
Well... Apparently one of the Fae monstrosities featured in
Night Terrors: Grim Fears is an
insanely powerful dragon called Dzarumazh. I suspect something along those lines would just as well suit a fantasy campaign as the BBEG, and
Changeling can already handle any sort of elves or goblins as PCs.