And yet the vast majority of the people decrying the 'racist' depiction of Gypsies in Vampire were not Roma, and of course one could accuse you of taking the limited sample size and blowing it into the idea that 'all roma are offended by'.

I'm sure there are plenty... lets go with Italians for this one... Italians who are annoyed when people ask them about Catholicism, or pasta.

I get annoyed when people ask me to shock them, not because I find the idea of shocking people abhorrent, but because idiot requests get annoying.

Thus, if I were a Rom I'd undoubtedly find people asking me to read their palms incredibly annoying... because idiots are annoying, not because palm reading is an offensive stereotype.

Bah.  Move this to off topic.

Quote from: Spike;285647And yet the vast majority of the people decrying the 'racist' depiction of Gypsies in Vampire were not Roma, and of course one could accuse you of taking the limited sample size and blowing it into the idea that 'all roma are offended by'.

I'm not saying anything about all Roma. They do comprise, what, 0.2% of this country's population, though, so I've met quite a few of them.

Then again, the description in WoD: Gypsies had little to do with the real world. These so-called "gypsies" were not entirely human and possessed magical powers based on the purity of their ancestral bloodlines, which they used to secretly control a considerable part of the world. We're not talking about some vague "mystic awareness" here (although they were naturally considered Awakened too), but actual sorcery that could enchant people and conjure knives out of thin air (apparently because everyone knows that gypsies always fight with knives). Essentially, they were supernatural creatures and descendants of monsters. By the same token, you could make Italians into hereditary lycanthropes because of a curse which fell on Romulus when he was suckled by a she-wolf, or some such thing.

What's offensive about WW's Gypsies? Well, it doesn't take a virulent WW-hater to figure that one out, dude. Imagine if they'd made a sourcebook called WoD:Jews, where the Jews were all secretly kabbalists who were descendants of a demon?

I mean, come on!!

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;285390If you designed a fantasy equiavelent of the WoD, what monster types would you use instead of vamps, werewolves, mages (hmm), Prometheans, Mummies, Gypsies, Changelines, Ghosts, even Hunters? (I think that's all of them).

That is all regular fantasy shit. I guess you could play kobolts or something.

Quote from: RPGPundit;285685Imagine if they'd made a sourcebook called WoD:Jews, where the Jews were all secretly kabbalists who were descendants of a demon?

Well, yes. It's not only that Roma were described as natural-born thieves and liars, but they actually had special racial powers specifically for stealing and lying. And it's not that far from "Gypsy women can magically hypnotize men into obeying them by dancing in brightly coloured dresses" to "Jews gain double Willpower whenever they indulge their innate Greed."

Quote from: GrimGent;285719Well, yes. It's not only that Roma were described as natural-born thieves and liars, but they actually had special racial powers specifically for stealing and lying. And it's not that far from "Gypsy women can magically hypnotize men into obeying them by dancing in brightly coloured dresses" to "Jews gain double Willpower whenever they indulge their innate Greed."

See, if you'd started your entire point with that, we could have avoided an awful lot of argument.  But no, you insisted that they were racially offensive because they had supernatural blood and spiritual powers.

Whup-dee-doo.

As for the 'decended from a vampire' tidbit, as I recall the gypsies in Vampire were decedents of the mortal woman who BECAME a powerful vampire (with the Gangrel OR the Ravnos (or both?) her vampiric decendents).   I'm not sure where that is supposed to go as far as 'Racially insensitive'... are we implying that they have a natural tendancy to become bloodsucking fiends of the night?

Because if we are, I'm about 90% certain that 90% of all vampires in fiction, WW or otherwise, are white motherfuckers.

Quote from: Spike;285765See, if you'd started your entire point with that, we could have avoided an awful lot of argument.  But no, you insisted that they were racially offensive because they had supernatural blood and spiritual powers.

What's the difference, since every single power that they had was in one way or another based on racial stereotypes ("the gypsy as a witch," "the gypsy as a thief," "the gypsy as a trickster," and so on), and the "Blood Potency" rating which fuelled those powers was even based on racial purity?

QuoteAs for the 'decended from a vampire' tidbit, as I recall the gypsies in Vampire were decedents of the mortal woman who BECAME a powerful vampire (with the Gangrel OR the Ravnos (or both?) her vampiric decendents).

Their bloodlines supposedly began with Lilith's daughter Daenna who ate from the Apple of Knowledge, became immortal, and married a vampire. The various gypsy families eventually became related to just about every supernatural group in the oWoD, though, from the werewolves to the fae.

Quote from: GrimGent;285769What's the difference, since every single power that they had was in one way or another based on racial stereotypes ("the gypsy as a witch," "the gypsy as a thief," "the gypsy as a trickster," and so on), and the "Blood Potency" rating which fuelled those powers was even based on racial purity?

Um... because there is a huge difference between the idea of 'we're a special people with special powers' and 'we're all mystic criminals'? Just a thought man.  I've never claimed specific knowledge here, and I haven't defended the mystic criminal aspect for a reason: I am not an expert on the WW Gypsies, which I meant to point out with a question in the first post I made. Mea culpa.

Now, thats not to say I think its impossible to use a mythologized racial group (and this can lead to a spin off regarding the term 'gypsies' to cover a racial group vs the actual ethnic grouping of Roma.... but I vaguely recall that WW specifically tied the Gypsies to the Rom in the one book entry I read over a decade ago...) as mystic criminals without being inherently racist, but that the challenge of doing so, and the current culture of excessive sensitivity makes it far more challenging than it could possibly be worth.

QuoteTheir bloodlines supposedly began with Lilith's daughter Daenna who ate from the Apple of Knowledge, became immortal, and married a vampire. The various gypsy families eventually became related to just about every supernatural group in the oWoD, though, from the werewolves to the fae.

Again, the level to depth you've applied to researching this (as WW never lays out that level of detail and simplicity in a single place...) is greater than mine.  Most references to them that I recall simply stated they were the mortal decendants of a woman who later became the head of a vampire clan.

Regardless, it takes more than a somewhat funky mythological origin to call it racially insensitive. The romans were proud to be the decendents of dudes who suckled from a shewolf, and at least one greek state was said to have decended from ants raised up to be men as I recall.  I'm sure if I took the time to really think about it I could come up with far more examples of 'strange origin myths' for real world cultures that people were actually proud of.  Now, if the portrayal was such that all gypsies were automatically damned because they were decended of this Deanna character... then you'd have something.  By itself? Big fat Meh.

Your last line about being tied to every other supernatural critter? Thats bragging rights, man.  Never met a black dude who thought calls about them having bigger dicks than anyone else was insulting, did you?   Ditto the gypsies being the supernatural equivilents.   Stereotyping? Yeah. So?

Quote from: Spike;285777Now, thats not to say I think its impossible to use a mythologized racial group (and this can lead to a spin off regarding the term 'gypsies' to cover a racial group vs the actual ethnic grouping of Roma.... but I vaguely recall that WW specifically tied the Gypsies to the Rom in the one book entry I read over a decade ago...) as mystic criminals without being inherently racist, but that the challenge of doing so, and the current culture of excessive sensitivity makes it far more challenging than it could possibly be worth.

Technically, it could be argued that the Roma from real life didn't even exist as an ethnic group in the oWoD: there was a bundle of familiar stereotypes under the same name in their place, but as said, those had precious little to do with anyone that we might actually know. It really wouldn't taken much for White Wolf to replace them with some completely fictional faction instead of the "Illuminati in painted wagons" caricature that they ended up using, but because they didn't... well... it's no wonder that WoD: Gypsies is commonly acknowledged as one of the very worst supplements they have ever published. It simply showed poor judgment on Pale Pooch's part.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;285390If you designed a fantasy equiavelent of the WoD, what monster types would you use instead of vamps, werewolves, mages (hmm), Prometheans, Mummies, Gypsies, Changelines, Ghosts, even Hunters? (I think that's all of them).

That's not exactly an answer to your question but I was very disappointed that White Wolf had ended the historical side line of the oWoD. Four of the five core games got sister games set in other times: Vampire: Dark Ages, Werewolf: Wild West, Mage: Sorcerer's Crusade, Wraith: The Great War. Changeling would have been next in line but WW decided against it. I was hoping that it would be WW's take on the fantasy genre, something like a cross between Jack Vance's Lyonesse and Dragon Warrior's World of Legend (with probably a sprinkle of the French Hurlements/Chimères).

And yet, there was a WW fantasy game that gave us a glimpse into what the alternate historical treatment of Changeling might have looked like: the CCG Arcadia: The Wyld Hunt.

So my choice would be Changeling: Arcadia.

Quote from: Spike;285777Your last line about being tied to every other supernatural critter? Thats bragging rights, man.  Never met a black dude who thought calls about them having bigger dicks than anyone else was insulting, did you?   Ditto the gypsies being the supernatural equivilents.   Stereotyping? Yeah. So?

Personally, I think that positive racial stereotypes are still problematic.  Logically, claiming racial strengths is really no different than claiming racial weaknesses.  i.e. If you say that Asians are good at math and science, and blacks are good at sports -- then you are effectively saying that Asians aren't good at sports, and blacks aren't good at math and science.  

And yes, I have met many people who are insulted at so-called positive stereotypes.  Saying that Jews are good with money isn't generally considered praise, and for that matter many people dislike the "magic negro" figure that often turns up in stories.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;286131And yet, there was a WW fantasy game that gave us a glimpse into what the alternate historical treatment of Changeling might have looked like: the CCG Arcadia: The Wyld Hunt.

Don't forget that WW also published as part of their Dark Ages line DA: Fae, which by all accounts focused more heavily on the original roots of fairies in mythology and folktales.

Quote from: jhkim;286141Personally, I think that positive racial stereotypes are still problematic.  Logically, claiming racial strengths is really no different than claiming racial weaknesses.  i.e. If you say that Asians are good at math and science, and blacks are good at sports -- then you are effectively saying that Asians aren't good at sports, and blacks aren't good at math and science.  

And yes, I have met many people who are insulted at so-called positive stereotypes.  Saying that Jews are good with money isn't generally considered praise, and for that matter many people dislike the "magic negro" figure that often turns up in stories.

And yet, without pausing for thought I can think of a large number of people that promote similar positive stereotypes for their own race/nationality with pride.

I also know plenty of people that are proud of their 'negative' stereotypes, like the Irish alcholism that I've mentioned here.... I didn't pull it out of thin air.

Equating stereotyping with racism is something of a slippery slope argument.  The human brain is wired to fill in gaps in knowledge by grouping things according to types.  Don't know Mr. O'Malley very well?  He probably would like some beer if you invite him over for dinner, and he may have relatives who are cops.  You could be utterly wrong, but if you never actually invite Mr. O'Malley over for dinner you'll never know and it won't hurt you or him at all.

Its when you allow that 'gap filling' to overtake your ability to fill in the blanks with real data that you run into problems, or conversely if you refuse to use it.  The Gypsies have a reputation, a stereotype, as theives and conmen, and in fact many of them are.  Knowing this, you are yourself against common theft and even being conned when you wander through neighborhoods where they are common. Is it unfair to the Rom who aren't thieves and conmen? Certainly.  Its also stupid to go the opposite direction and flash your cash everywhere you go and assume that guy trying to sell you a bridge actually owns the fucker just so you don't accidentally reinforce the stereotype.    

Sure, some stereotypes of either sort are sort of stupid and don't serve any purpose, either way.

You know, since Changeling: The Lost disposed of that whole "wonders of magic are fading away and the banality of the modern world is crushing all the pretty fairies" approach which dominated Dreaming, it would be easy enough to run a medieval campaign in it. Faerie is effectively timeless, after all, and a thousand years ago the Fae were the same solipsistic sociopath bastards that they are in the present day. All you'd have to do with replace a few of the more inappropriate skills (Computer, Drive, Firearms), and take into account that changelings in the past wouldn't have had the communications technology for an effective support network across great distances, rendering them more isolated from each other. On the other hand, the lack of an omnipresent ID verification system would also make it easier to blend into the local society.

I was actually thinking more of a setting a bit like Midnight but where players were 'rebel' bad guys - orcs, dark elves or whatever - who had some reason to rebel against the 'greater evil' in charge.