TheRPGSite

I lurk a lot here.

Mostly cause I'm a girl and also because I only play 1 or 2x a month and haven't had a new character in almost 2 years. (current is a lv 7 CN drow pally in a high magic 3.0/3.5 homebrew)

That said.... I am getting involved in a 3.5 Forgotten Realms game, initial setting is Waterdeep, LE chars allowed with a good char background but he's pushing a Heroic game where the party is gonna bash the big bad guys eventually- anti-hero is ok too. There's 5 other people playing, one will be a CG gnome artificer(black powder)/caster, 2 will undoubtably also be CG, one will ne some form of N, and one will likely be LE or CN/wE.

I have no idea what to roll :( cause I'm a nub. I've read the Cleric Quintet and the Drizzt books, but there my knowledge of FR ends.

Quote the DM:

QuoteGiven your tenative choices in alignment, and admission of a liking for intrigue, what would you think about being an agent of the Moonstars, and more specifically of Khelben Blackstaff? I was thinking sort of a Mage-Killer character. Waterdeep, especially my Waterdeep, is teeming with mage/magic related drama. The Red Wizards, the Watchful Order, the Church of Mystra, and even more exotic players are pretty much ALWAYS attempting some sort of plot. A Psychic Warrior, Psion, or even SpellThief (I've been dying for someone to play one of those) would make good base classes for such a build, although Rogue and Monk would work too. There is even a Mage-Killer prestige class in the Magic of Faerun book, although in truth I don't recall if it's cool or sucky.

Something to keep in mind as you're thinking of character ideas:
-should be an adventuring character type
-should have something about the character that would make a passable "cover"

I'd really love to actually get to play a richly/deeply developed dark character past lowbie, but I just don't know all the race/class combinations that well. I don't really want to play a straight caster, DM isn't big on assassins. I'd really like to try something different- too bad Illumians are human. (I don't want to play a human.) The way I justified my leaning toward LE is that Evil Overlord #1 isn't any keener on Evil Overlord #2, 3 & 8 than he is on Do-Gooder Circus. DM agreed, and has okayed Planetouched and so forth, but no dragons/kin. He's suggested Moonsea Skysentinal.. but they're DoGooders :)


I come to you guys again for advice!

Cia[/FONT][/COLOR]

It depends on what books you have available, of course, but an elf specialist wizard 3 / master specialist 10 / Incantatrix 7 (or MS 7 / Incan 10) would be a strong choice. You'd want the 1st elf substitution level from Races of the Wild, Master Specialist is from Complete Mage, and Incantatrix is from Magic of Faerun. Or if that's too highly optimised and complicated, some variation of it using fewer books would work fine.

Basically, master specialists are specialist wizards who focus even more deeply on their school to get cool bennies. It's a strong choice for most specialist wizards unless they have a specific build in mind.

Incantatrices are an order of abjuration specialists who steal metamagic feats that have been applied to spells cast by other people. The Incantatrix is generally considered one of the two strongest wizard PrCs in official WotC material, as well as having pretty cool flavour. I think they're supposed to banishment experts, might make a good cover for your character.

I'd say elf for the racial substitution level, but also for the dex bonus. If you don't want to be an elf, a human or halfling might be the way to go.

That sounds wildly complicated.

I don't actually have any FR books, though the DM does. Wait.. I do.. in PDF. Pretty sure that I have the FR Player's Guide. I also have everything from Crystalkeep.

I don't know if the DM wants us to keep as much as we can to the FR line or what, otherwise I'd have looked more into Eberron, or shapeshifters & courtesans. Courtesan as a cover, shapeshifter as a race? Is that even possible? But that leads right back to rogue--->assassin or spy, which he's not into. I can't see what else a courtesan(profession)/shapeshifter(class?race?) would be good at.

I've never been too good at playing casters, so I'm very leery of it- especially if it's really complicated. An Incantatrix does sound crazy-cool though.

My advice, ciado, is to post here more often.  I don't want this to be too much of a "Boy's Club".

OH!  Advice about the FR game...?  I approach the FR as a setting for me to monkey with, moreso than a setting for which much has been written.  Moreover, I dig not upon the 3.5,  therefore I dunno what race/class combo will rock your socks the most.

However, I can tell you what I would do:  I wouldn't worry, and I'd just focus on enjoying myself.

In other words, I would forego the funky classes for now, and just go with two classes from the PHB.  Wizard/Rogue or what-have-you, tweaked with a few choice feats, and be done with it.  Then, I would take that character to the game and rock with it, by putting my effort and my enthusiasm into playing.  

I would learn about other fancy classes and etcetera later; Maybe I'd pick up another class after I did some learnin'.  But the immediate thing would be to get into the game and into the character, and to start having fun.  

But...that's just me.  I may have just given you useless advice, and if so, I hope there's no harm done.  Just so long as you're rocking and having fun!

Forgotten Realm is firmly in the D&D fantasy genre. What I would do is make up the character you want to play, independent of setting. Just keep within the standard fantasy tropes that D&D has. Then goto your DM and say "Here what I want to play. What are my options." If he is smart then he will use his knowledge of Forgotten Realms to give you a bunch of fun options.

Pick one and then modify your initial concept and play.

This is what I do for my Majestic Wilderlands campaign so that new players are not scared off by having to read a ton of lore. They make a concept I give them 2 to 4 one page writeup of what options they have, they pick one, and then finalize their character.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!In other words, I would forego the funky classes for now, and just go with two classes from the PHB.  Wizard/Rogue or what-have-you, tweaked with a few choice feats, and be done with it.  Then, I would take that character to the game and rock with it, by putting my effort and my enthusiasm into playing.  

That is exceptionally sound advice.

-=Grim=-

Quote'd really love to actually get to play a richly/deeply developed dark character past lowbie, but I just don't know all the race/class combinations that well.

Is there any race you'd like? Then we might have something to start with.

I hope you start posting more often here, Ciado.

RPGPundit

Ciado,

One of my gaming buddies plays an Incantar. It´s mechanically pretty easy, so maybe wizard, who becomes an Incantar as his Prestige Class might be a straightforward thing.

He basically readies an action, to metamagically enhace other people spells, and he has a lot of metamagic for himself, too.

I´m pretty baffled by your DM, though. He´s assuming that everybody has his "build" already planned, that´s totally unheard if in any games I know.

If I were ciado, I'd be looking at so many 3.5 possibilities and choices that I wouldn't know where to start.

Quote from: SettembriniI´m pretty baffled by your DM, though. He´s assuming that everybody has his "build" already planned, that´s totally unheard if in any games I know.

It's pretty common for 3.x players, especially once you're familiar with the system, to have a 1-20 progression worked out. Even if you're not a CharOp grognard, it prevents you from doing things like taking a feat and then realising that you can't really make much use of it for another few levels.

Ciado> If you are going to play a caster, one of the coolest supplements WotC has released recently for wizards is Complete Mage. If an Incantatrix / Master Specialist is too complicated, you might want to pick up CM and try a Nightmare Spinner. They're illusionists who specialise in fear effects. Illusionists are a pretty awesome type of specialist, mainly because they reward imaginative and inventive players without requiring a lot of number crunching or metamagic jiggery. Just keep your CL and your save DCs up, and you'll be fine.

Or you could grab PHBII and try a single-classed beguiler. They're rogue-like casters who specialise in illusion and enchantment, and Be20 is a strong and flavourful build all on its own (Be19/X1 is slightly better, but if you're not playing with Opers Be20 is fine).

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My advice, ciado, is to post here more often.  I don't want this to be too much of a "Boy's Club".

I've seen other girls post here!

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!However, I can tell you what I would do:  I wouldn't worry, and I'd just focus on enjoying myself.

I fully intend to. I'm really good at that. I'm a complete hedon. I'm tired of being the rogue or healer though.. which is pretty much all I've played for the last 17 years, with very few/short excursions into other. (almost got to try out a Glittergirl but majority voted d20 high fantasy. *sigh)

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Maybe I'd pick up another class after I did some learnin'.  

I don't want to be an 'A 3/B 7/C 5/D 5' though... my character sheet would be more like a scroll! My live-in chum, a bigtime MinMaxer, is trying to talk me into Rogue/Shadowdancer/Dervish. It sounds promising buuut....

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!If I were ciado, I'd be looking at so many 3.5 possibilities and choices that I wouldn't know where to start.

Yep.

Quote from: 1of3Is there any race you'd like? Then we might have something to start with.

Something pretty. Cause.. as I've mentioned.. I'm a not-so-secretly a girly-girl underneath all this muck & blood. Also, we've (read: DM) all pretty much settled it that I am going to get to play something LE in a mixed group of CG & CN, agent of the Moonstars, and more specifically of Khelben Blackstaff in Waterdeep. I also want slaves :D

-Shapeshifter of some kind would be cool, if it had a nice wide range where I could go from Drow to tiefling to housecat. See... I don't even know if that exists.
-Warshaper sounds badass, but I don't know if that's a race or a class.
-non-human illumian, as long as we're being out there. You just can't convince me that only humans got jiggy with the arcane+nookie!

Quote from: RPGPunditI hope you start posting more often here, Ciado.

How's come?

Quote from: SettembriniI´m pretty baffled by your DM, though. He´s assuming that everybody has his "build" already planned, that´s totally unheard if in any games I know.

Why do you say that?

I think one or two people already do- the CG Artisan/Mage guy for one. DM's wife wants to try a ninja, other chick is leaning monk. There's 2 more guys who I haven't heard anything from yet.

I tend to agonize over character-building, because I want to _like_ them and have fun being them for a little bit. (I do accents & some mannerisms, but nothing too cheesy/obnoxious like sibilance.) Also, while I want to have something different, I also want there to be believable party dynamics.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine try a Nightmare Spinner.

Just the name sounds cool. Floppy, though. If the majority of what we'll be going up against is/are also casters/mages/etc.. will Illusions work well?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineJust keep your CL and your save DCs up, and you'll be fine. (Be19/X1 is slightly better, but if you're not playing with Opers Be20 is fine).

eh? CL = char level? what's 'DC's'? What's 'Opers'?



You folks rock with the snappy replies, btw.

Cia

CL is Caster Level. It's important because it determines how hard your spells are to dispel, how long they last, and generally, how powerful they are (frex, the # of d6s you roll for a fireball spell is equal to your CL, to a maximum of 10). For a caster, CL is very important.

Save DCs are the numbers people have to roll on their saving throws to overcome, ignore, or suffer reduced effects from your spells. Generally, the save DC of a spell is equal to the level of the spell + your casting stat + 10. If you're an illusionist, most of your spells will be "save or disbelieve" meaning that if they make the save, your spell does nothing.

You can boost the DCs of spells using feats. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Heighten Spell (which makes the spell act as if it were a higher level than it really is, so your fourth level phantasmal killer spell has the save DC of an eighth level spell, frex) are the three core feats ordinarily used to do this.

There are also a number of PrCs that have class features that do this. Master Specialist, which I mentioned earlier, is one.

And yeah, Nightmare Spinners are pretty cool. You'd need to take a level or so in Rogue, and you'd need the necromancy school available to your specialist wizard, but otherwise, you'd be fine. They'd work just fine against casters. Tactically, it'd be a good idea to rely on debuffs from necromancy, enchantment and illusion to wear down their saves until they start failing them all the time, then hit them with your _really_ nasty stuff (walk them off a cliff with rainbow pattern, hit them with a shadow conjuration orb of acid, etc.).

Opers are people who optimise characters. They're the gearheads of the D&D mechanics. The kinds of folks who invented Pun-Pun, the most powerful 5th level Kobold ever conceived.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIt's pretty common for 3.x players, especially once you're familiar with the system, to have a 1-20 progression worked out. Even if you're not a CharOp grognard, it prevents you from doing things like taking a feat and then realising that you can't really make much use of it for another few levels.

Well the fun lies in surprising the DM and others, at least in regards to character builds. We´d all be pretty bummed if we had to tell the DM beforehand. He must explore our characters via gameplay.

The moment I pulled out fifty Zombie bats out of my bag, who gave me "aid other" bonuses was priceless!
And when hit, they exploded in small balls of negative energy, healing each other and damagin the attacker. Ahhhh, good times!

Quote-Shapeshifter of some kind would be cool, if it had a nice wide range where I could go from Drow to tiefling to housecat. See... I don't even know if that exists.
-Warshaper sounds badass, but I don't know if that's a race or a class.
-non-human illumian, as long as we're being out there. You just can't convince me that only humans got jiggy with the arcane+nookie!

Warshaper is a PC from Complete Warrior. Requires BAB 4+ and some kind of shapechange/wildshape/etc.


OK, perhaps that's weird, but it's neither roguish nor caster or healer:

Changeling Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) / Warshaper

Nice front-line fighter. Get yourself a spiked chain, combat reflexes and improved trip. Once you reach Warshaper 3 you get another 5 ft. reach.

Changelings were introduced for the Eberron Setting and can also be found in Monter Manual III.

Quote from: ciado
How's come?

Because I hope everyone posts more often.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!If I were ciado, I'd be looking at so many 3.5 possibilities and choices that I wouldn't know where to start.

This is why I would, particularly is new to the system, stick with the three core books - for simplicity sake if nothing else. Maybe, for this campaign, look at the FRCS as that's, well, the setting.

I'm sure with just those books, you could create a kind of wizard/magic hunter that would be cool to play.  It might not be the uber-combination that a veteran like Pseudo would come up with, but it would probably suffice....

And that's nothing against Pseudo - I just think he has a such a grasp on all of the existing supplements that he could make just about any possible question about character build sing like a mother-fucker...

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIt's pretty common for 3.x players, especially once you're familiar with the system, to have a 1-20 progression worked out. Even if you're not a CharOp grognard, it prevents you from doing things like taking a feat and then realising that you can't really make much use of it for another few levels.

I'm no expert (certainly not at your level of familiarity with supplemental material), but didn't they go after that problem in the PHBII by trying to provide retraining rules - or am I imagining that?

Quote from: James J SkachI'm no expert (certainly not at your level of familiarity with supplemental material), but didn't they go after that problem in the PHBII by trying to provide retraining rules - or am I imagining that?

Nope - the retraining rules in the PHBII are fairly nifty. Though since not every DM allows material from the PHBII...

Quote from: James J SkachI'm no expert (certainly not at your level of familiarity with supplemental material), but didn't they go after that problem in the PHBII by trying to provide retraining rules - or am I imagining that?

No, you're right that there are retraining rules and they are intended to help you out if you bugger up your build. But many DMs don't want to deal with them, so it's better to avoid them in the first place. Plus, you're stuck with the bum choice until you complete the retraining quest.

Quote from: James J SkachThis is why I would, particularly is new to the system, stick with the three core books - for simplicity sake if nothing else. Maybe, for this campaign, look at the FRCS as that's, well, the setting.

I'm sure with just those books, you could create a kind of wizard/magic hunter that would be cool to play.  It might not be the uber-combination that a veteran like Pseudo would come up with, but it would probably suffice....

And that's nothing against Pseudo - I just think he has a such a grasp on all of the existing supplements that he could make just about any possible question about character build sing like a mother-fucker...

My ears are burning. :)

If ciado wants to stick to core, then I'd recommend an Illusionist specialist wizard who becomes an Archmage around 12th level . The key with the Archmage PrC is to take the "Spell-Like Ability" high arcana power 3-5 times. This'll give you a SLA you can cast twice per day in exchange for sacrificing a 5th level slot. You just pick spells of higher than 5th level to become SLAs (like Wish).

Until then, pick up Spell Focus (Illusion) and GSF (Illusion), ban Evocation and either Enchantment or Necro depending upon flavour and go to town. Keep Conjuration so that you can mix summons and illusions (is _this_ monstrous centipede the real one, or is that one?). Cast illusions of other spells in the game. You're a mage who specialises in confusing and disorienting your opponents by out-thinking them.

Quote from: SettembriniWell the fun lies in surprising the DM and others, at least in regards to character builds. We´d all be pretty bummed if we had to tell the DM beforehand. He must explore our characters via gameplay.

The moment I pulled out fifty Zombie bats out of my bag, who gave me "aid other" bonuses was priceless!
And when hit, they exploded in small balls of negative energy, healing each other and damagin the attacker. Ahhhh, good times!

Hah, I bet! And yeah, I don't necessarily tell the DM the details of my build, but I do have at least a rough idea of what my char will look like at level 20 and a rough idea of when I want to get certain feats.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIf ciado wants to stick to core,

I don't, really... I find the base races to be kind of ho-hum and I like to play challenging characters. Or interesting ones, and Cliche Wood Elf Rogue is not my idea of interesting. Yes- I know that it is what you make it, what you put into it, your attitude blah blah blah.

Did I mention that I like pretty? With sparkles and shyte too. A Drow Illumian would be RIGHT up my alley, if the thing existed. It's so hard to be mysterious when you're a human and everyone around you is a human, and a fey'ri walks in.

So yea.. having a fight with my live-in Min-Maxxer. He says I should run this thing he rolled up for me from my idea:

QuoteFemale Wood Elf Fighter 2 / Rogue 3 / Shadowdancer 1
Lawful Neutral
Origin: Sembia (where the crap..?)
Strength18(+4)
Dexterity21(+5)
Constitution13(+1)
Intelligence13(+1)
Wisdom10(+0)
Charisma13(+1)
Size:Medium
Height:5' 4" (noooo... I don't like petite chicks!!! ever! I am tall, I like  to play tall girls too.)
Weight:90 lb (wtf ever.)
Skin:Light
Eyes:Green (ugh)
Hair:Red; Wavy (also wtf ever. I like brunettes. obviously HIS choices here. arseheid.)


Sect: Solonor Thelandira
Total Hit Points: 41
Speed: 30 feet
Armor Class: 18 = 10 + 3 [studded] + 5 [dexterity]
Touch AC: 15
Flat-footed: 13
Initiative modifier:+ 5= + 5 [dexterity]
Fortitude save:+ 5= 4 [base] + 1 [constitution]
Reflex save:+ 10= 5 [base] + 5 [dexterity]
Will save:+ 1= 1 [base]
Attack (handheld):+ 8= 4 [base] + 4 [strength]
Attack (missile):+ 9= 4 [base] + 5 [dexterity]
Grapple check:+ 8= 4 [base] + 4 [strength]

 
Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:100 lb. or less
101-200 lb.
201-300 lb.
300 lb.
600 lb.
1500 lb.

 
Languages:Chondathan Common Elven Sylvan

Punching Dagger [1d4, crit x3, 1 lb., light, piercing or slashing]
Scimitar [1d6, crit 18-20/x2, 4 lb, one-handed, slashing] x2
Longbow [1d8, crit x3, range inc. 100 ft, 3 lb, piercing]
Studded armor [light; + 3 AC; max dex + 5; check penalty -1; 20 lb.]
Feats:
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Mobility
Two-Weapon Fighting

 
Skill NameKey
AbilitySkill
ModifierAbility
ModifierRanksMisc.
Modifier
AppraiseInt1 = +1  
BalanceDex*11 = +5+ 4+2 [tumble]
BluffCha1 = +1  
ClimbStr*4 = +4  
ConcentrationCon1 = +1  
Craft_1Int1 = +1  
Craft_2Int1 = +1  
Craft_3Int1 = +1  
DiplomacyCha3 = +1 +2 [sense motive]
Disable DeviceInt3 = +1+ 2
DisguiseCha1 = +1  
Escape ArtistDex*7 = +5+ 2
ForgeryInt1 = +1  
Gather InformationCha1 = +1+ 0
HealWis0 = +0  
HideDex*14 = +5+ 9
IntimidateCha1 = +1  
JumpStr*6 = +4 +2 [tumble]
ListenWis6 = +0+ 4+2 [elf]
Move SilentlyDex*14 = +5+ 9
Open LockDex7 = +5+ 2
Perform_1Cha10 = +1+ 9
Perform_2Cha3 = +1+ 2
Perform_3Cha1 = +1  
Perform_4Cha1 = +1  
Perform_5Cha1 = +1  
RideDex5 = +5  
SearchInt3 = +1 +2 [elf]
Sense MotiveWis9 = +0+ 9
Sleight of HandDex*7 = +5+ 2
SpotWis6 = +0+ 4+2 [elf]
SurvivalWis0 = +0  
SwimStr**4 = +4  
TumbleDex*14 = +5+ 9
Use RopeDex5 = +5  

* = check penalty for wearing armor
Wood (Copper) Elf:
+2 dexterity / +2 strength / -2 constitution / -2 intelligence (already included)
Immune to magical sleep
+2 racial bonus to saves vs. enchantments
Low-light vision
Proficient with longsword, rapier, longbow && shortbow
+2 racial bonus on listen, search, and spot checks
Notice secret doors; automatic search check if in five feet
Fighter
Bonus Feats (already included)
Rogue
Sneak Attack +2d6
Trapfinding
Evasion (level 2)
Trap Sense (level 3)
Uncanny Dodge (level 4)
Improved Uncanny Dodge (level 8)
Special Abilities (choices begin at 10th level)
Shadowdancer
Hit dice d8
Average increase in attack bonuses
Slow increase in fortitude saves
Fast increase in reflex saves
Slow increase in will saves
Base 6 skill points per level
No bonus feats

So I'm sniping at him because I really don't want to play anything mundane for one frikkin' time.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineHah, I bet! And yeah, I don't necessarily tell the DM the details of my build, but I do have at least a rough idea of what my char will look like at level 20 and a rough idea of when I want to get certain feats.

I wasn't going to do that either, but I do like to have an idea of where I'm going.. just like IRL.




Cia