Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on April 19, 2021, 09:55:41 PM

Quote from: SHARK link=topic=43387.msgIn my campaigns, Evil creatures and races are EVIL. Evil races regularly do EVIL things, like brutally conquering peaceful races, roasting them over fires and eating them, sacrificing them on altars to dark gods, breaking them to the yoke of slavery, and plundering their women...

I'm just re-reading Wheel of Time (listening while walking my dog) and up to this point it reminds me of trollocs/myrddraal. (I think Jordan did a good job of showing how bad/evil they were without being gratuitous. That was one of the changes in tone that Sanderson brought to the last few books which I really disliked.)

I think the only character who had an issue killing a trolloc was Loial for about 2 minutes - but that's because he's from a species of tree-hugging semi-pacifists. And that's just the first time - he kicks butt and takes names later. The traveling people are the gypsy/hippies of the world and refused to fight anybody - but they don't eat meat either (which I'm a bit dubious of them getting proper nutrition while traveling around in a medieval setting - but whatever).

I really do think that the issue with evil orcs specifically is that they've been used so many different ways in different settings. If I were publishing a fantasy setting and wanted 100% evil incarnate style orcs as a central piece of the setting, I'd probably just call them something different. Just to avoid the baggage that comes with orcs being used in settings where they aren't evil incarnate and are potentially just the same as everybody else (latter Warcraft is the only setting I know of which goes that far - but I'm sure there are others).

I would still likely use orcs as a more brutish species who aren't as civilized and do a lot of raiding etc. - likely leaning more towards the evil end of the spectrum - perhaps involved in demon worshipping or whatever. It's a good shorthand than players are used to.

Do I have ANY problem with 100% evil orcs? No. Are people who say having evil orcs/races being foolish? Yes.

But I feel like it'd be easier to create a new species which is 100% evil incarnate rather than going to the trouble of explaining that THESE orcs are evil incarnate, unlike the orcs that the players may be familiar with in other settings.

Session zero:

Me: In this world things are like this...... & Orcs are inherently Evil.

If anyone has a question the answer comes in flavors of: Because this is my table, my game and my world. More or less aggressive depending on the way the question was framed and could even get to: If you don't like it there's the door.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2021, 04:51:38 PMOne of the reasons I despise WarCraft is because the orcs were changed between the second and third game from conquistadors to peaceful Native American stereotypes who don't take responsibility for their past war crimes.

I'm not sure how this relates to my point at all. And while I don't like the WoW IP or world, Im pretty sure you don't have to answer for the sins of your father, unless that's what you view should happen which I disagree with.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 19, 2021, 09:24:08 PM
It's been decades since I played those games and my memory is crap, so I don't entirely get what people hate about it. 

But I guess making the evil race an "ackshually, they were really corrupted by an eviler race" is a weak copout.

So like I said it doesn't have to be bad but it is, like, in terms of style. It is comic-booky because it goes to the same well of "Team up to fight bigger bad" every other expansion now. Waffles a lot on "Orcs were corrupted by demons" and "Nah orcs woulda been warmongers and shit without demons." Does big crossover events where you fight resurrected bad guys from the past who are now from alternate timelines in the future, real Crisis shit. It's just comic-booky and somebody who played the early games or the first WoW release then got trapped in a cave for twenty years would wonder what the fuck happened when they came out.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 10:04:03 PM
Session zero:

Me: In this world things are like this...... & Orcs are inherently Evil.

If anyone has a question the answer comes in flavors of: Because this is my table, my game and my world. More or less aggressive depending on the way the question was framed and could even get to: If you don't like it there's the door.

You're not contradicting me.

You are talking about a game you're running. I was talking about theoretical writing of an RPG campaign setting.

I agree that at any particular table it's not a problem with a proper session 0. But if writing a RPG and/or setting, you can't be sure said session 0 will occur. Many players barely/ever bother cracking a setting book - relying upon the GM.

Quote from: This Guy on April 20, 2021, 01:09:11 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 19, 2021, 09:24:08 PM
It's been decades since I played those games and my memory is crap, so I don't entirely get what people hate about it. 

But I guess making the evil race an "ackshually, they were really corrupted by an eviler race" is a weak copout.

So like I said it doesn't have to be bad but it is, like, in terms of style. It is comic-booky because it goes to the same well of "Team up to fight bigger bad" every other expansion now. Waffles a lot on "Orcs were corrupted by demons" and "Nah orcs woulda been warmongers and shit without demons." Does big crossover events where you fight resurrected bad guys from the past who are now from alternate timelines in the future, real Crisis shit. It's just comic-booky and somebody who played the early games or the first WoW release then got trapped in a cave for twenty years would wonder what the fuck happened when they came out.

Ah, I never got into WoW. Tried it for a bit (a few years after release), never got into it (not enough visual customization options), discovered City of Heroes (and eventually Champions Online) soon after. Never looked back. My only real experience was the old games (and Starcraft 1) so I never fully went through the "every expansion is a retcon and/or a rehash of the plot at the end of WC3". I also never expected it to be a very deep story, since the games were just supposed to be X vs Y vs Z RTS games that just need an excuse to pit one side against the other in strategic battle.

You made the right choice bro, didn't get into Champions but CoH got done dirty by NCSoft.

Ultimately, it's a game. We need mooks to kill and orcs are just cooler than using humans. That's it. If encounters with orcs are always hostile, that doesn't make it inferior to a game where orcs are an allowed PC race with free alignment.

Elf-games are violent slaughter simulators. If somebody doesn't like that, then they should play something else. I'm sure that there must be loads of RPG with a core gameplay loop that isn't based around killing and looting.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 18, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on April 20, 2021, 07:23:30 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2021, 10:04:03 PM
Session zero:

Me: In this world things are like this...... & Orcs are inherently Evil.

If anyone has a question the answer comes in flavors of: Because this is my table, my game and my world. More or less aggressive depending on the way the question was framed and could even get to: If you don't like it there's the door.

You're not contradicting me.

You are talking about a game you're running. I was talking about theoretical writing of an RPG campaign setting.

I agree that at any particular table it's not a problem with a proper session 0. But if writing a RPG and/or setting, you can't be sure said session 0 will occur. Many players barely/ever bother cracking a setting book - relying upon the GM.

What's stoping anyone from taking a game where Orcs are peace loving hippies and turning them into evil killing machines?

What's stoping anyone from taking a game where Orcs are evil killing machines and turning them into peace loving hippies?

NOTHING.

Ergo write what you want and stop worrying about what the buyers might or not do or feel, there will allways be someone that'll find something to complain about.

In my games Orcs (and other species) are evil, because I say so, hell I ran a campaign where elves, dwarves and halflings were evil too, only humans were allowed as PCs.

It's not lazy, it's not evil and it causes no harm to do so, so fuck the puritans.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 20, 2021, 09:42:43 AM
Ultimately, it's a game. We need mooks to kill and orcs are just cooler than using humans. That's it. If encounters with orcs are always hostile, that doesn't make it inferior to a game where orcs are an allowed PC race with free alignment.

Elf-games are violent slaughter simulators. If somebody doesn't like that, then they should play something else. I'm sure that there must be loads of RPG with a core gameplay loop that isn't based around killing and looting.

And if someone wants to houserule an elf game into animal crossing more power to them.

Quote from: Shasarak on April 20, 2021, 06:25:14 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 18, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.

You're assuming the posters here are human?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 06:59:39 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 20, 2021, 09:42:43 AM
Ultimately, it's a game. We need mooks to kill and orcs are just cooler than using humans. That's it. If encounters with orcs are always hostile, that doesn't make it inferior to a game where orcs are an allowed PC race with free alignment.

Elf-games are violent slaughter simulators. If somebody doesn't like that, then they should play something else. I'm sure that there must be loads of RPG with a core gameplay loop that isn't based around killing and looting.

And if someone wants to houserule an elf game into animal crossing more power to them.

Greetings!

I well remember one campaign I ran, way back during high school. The group was 4 guys and 2 girls. They were all greedy, ruthless "murder hobos" that ran around killing, swindling, and conquering everything within reach. Whole villages and towns were plundered and subjugated, along with dragon lairs, vampire castles, faerie-filled forests. Not something I would want as a steady diet by any means--but it was fun as a break from being in campaigns where everyone was heroic, righteous, and noble. It was funny, too.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 20, 2021, 07:20:50 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 20, 2021, 06:25:14 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 18, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?

They should not be and yet here we are.

You're assuming the posters here are human?

Are you outing yourself? 

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 18, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Should humans be inherently evil?

Inherently evil humans are Bad Design. Whole religions would collapse...

"What is humanity but a disease?" --Prometheus, Starsiege.

Honestly, Geeky's got it right. Nothing stops you from turning orcs into deranged murder machines (hell, Paizo did that with goblins -- yeah, there's an element of comedy in them, but Pathfinder goblins are just barely sapient two-legged piranha with an aptitude for fire-handling). Or turning them into anything else. It's your setting.

What I find absurd is how the wokeists wave this around like it's some kind of banner to rally to when (a) better and smarter people have done it already, and (b) they are protesting perhaps a bit too much.

Because there are some people whose behavior strikes me as pretty damned orc-like, these days. And I wonder if that's the burr in their pants.