So I'm new.
But what the hell is up with Exalted 3? Its been 6 months since they even had a development schedule up. It's apparently ok to just blow your deadline and then say "yeah we aren't even bothering with deadlines anymore." What the Fuck?!
I mean if your contractor did that you would flip the fuck out.
Even worse is that rpg.net has several of the writers as moderators. So I really dont think asking anything over there will go well. I've tried to contact people through kickstarter messenger and all Rob said was essentially "making RPG's is hard!"
I know making RPG's isn't easy but fuck! Works of philosophy, history, and hard science have been written in less time than you claim to have been working on this fucking thing.
God, it feels good to get that out.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Kickstarter.
It's not all bad, but it's close to it.
Quote from: JeremyR;732808Welcome to the wonderful world of Kickstarter.
It's not all bad, but it's close to it.
I've backed a few other things and was pleasantly surprised how different they were. They were clear what was going to happen. They were clear about development. They were clear about delays. None of that is happening with this one and it really bothers me. As I'm sure its obvious.
Maybe its irrational but I get the feeling from what I see on the kickstarter page and the statements of the developers as few as they have been. That I'm supposed to shut up and take what they give me and be glad to get it.
I know others have had issues with Kickstarters way worse than mine. But still it bothers me.
Reasons not to back kickstarters. It might work for some, but damned if I am throwing money at things like that.
It's KS so delays are a given.
TBH most people were estimating those delays almost from the get go. Given the lead developer had severe illness for 3-4 months of last year, I don't think anyone realistically expects to see Ex3 any sooner than the end of this year.
Quote from: Skywalker;732823It's KS so delays are a given.
TBH most people were estimating those delays almost from the get go. Given the lead developer had severe illness for 3-4 months of last year, I don't think anyone realistically expects to see Ex3 any sooner than the end of this year.
Then why don't they just say that? A simple announce of...
"We have experienced significant delays to health issues with the lead developer and our initial estimates were overly optimistic. As such we are pushing back the publication schedule. We are planning to have the pdf ready to ship before the end of the fourth quarter of 2014. This timeline maybe revised again as circumstances dictate and we will give you more specific dates in the future as we are able. Thank you all for your patience and we are sorry for any inconvenience."
See I'm not even a developer and I can write that announcement.
It's a big contrast between that and their Kickstarters for old and new World of Darkness stuff, where typically they have had the entire text of the product ready for backer inspection before the funding campaign even begins. I guess they have learned a lot from Exalted 3.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;732824Then why don't they just say that?
There has been consistent updates on all those matters via updates. The only thing they haven't said was a specific expected date as its still not certain enough.
Why do you even care about the release of the initial product? It's for the same old, played-out "Solars against the world" that we've had for over a decade. But with a slightly reworked system and a heavy side of "trust us, it will be awesome even though it's the same Storyteller shit". With bonus "no support for any other type of Exalt yet" - and good luck on them appearing.
OP is right.
Imagine Dwimmermount, only with J Mal being a RPGnet mod, and no Autarch to step in. Oh, and no access to the draft.
Glad I skipped this one.
Quote from: Kiero;732839Why do you even care about the release of the initial product? It's for the same old, played-out "Solars against the world" that we've had for over a decade. But with a slightly reworked system and a heavy side of "trust us, it will be awesome even though it's the same Storyteller shit". With bonus "no support for any other type of Exalt yet" - and good luck on them appearing.
Yeah, I absolutely agree with Kiero. What's the
point? If they'd streamlined
everything and made all the Exalt types etc available in the main core rulebook then
maybe but as it stands...
why want this?Quote from: The ButcherImagine Dwimmermount, only with J Mal being a RPGnet mod, and no Autarch to step in. Oh, and no access to the draft.
Glad I skipped this one.
Haha yeah this too.
Kickstarter isn't the problem; if Exalted 3 had been based on the "traditional" "publisher fronts all of the costs, then releases" model, it would still be delayed.
Delays aren't even the problem, because a couple of days after it eventually arrives, it won't matter that it was late. A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad.
Communication is a problem. I get that the authors have set themselves a huge task, and I get the feeling they've bitten off more than they can chew, but the actual fanbase would be more accepting of them just admitting it.
The workload is the ridiculous thing, though. They've got to develop a game system with more moving parts than a Magic core set, on RPG industry pay scales. That's a fucking joke. It's not going to happen.
As ever with kickstarter - caveat emptor! Things could get delayed. Things could even be shit when they arrive - but you're not paying for something to be brilliant, you're paying for something to exist.
Quote from: Kiero;732839Why do you even care about the release of the initial product? It's for the same old, played-out "Solars against the world" that we've had for over a decade. But with a slightly reworked system and a heavy side of "trust us, it will be awesome even though it's the same Storyteller shit". With bonus "no support for any other type of Exalt yet" - and good luck on them appearing.
Quoted for truth.
Wake me up when they roll out Exalted 20th Anniversary Edition, with all the splats in the core. It's probably going to be the size of Ptolus and three times the price but I am slightly more likely to fund this than Exalted 3e.
Quote from: The Ent;732852Yeah, I absolutely agree with Kiero. What's the point? If they'd streamlined everything and made all the Exalt types etc available in the main core rulebook then maybe but as it stands...why want this?
Quote from: The Butcher;732882Quoted for truth.
Wake me up when they roll out Exalted 20th Anniversary Edition, with all the splats in the core. It's probably going to be the size of Ptolus and three times the price but I am slightly more likely to fund this than Exalted 3e.
For a moment, I was tempted to go and post a thread with this very topic back on TBP (ie "why would anyone want to go back to 2001/2006 all over again"), then I realised it would be all the ammunition my haters need to try to get me banned again. Fundamentally, I don't give enough of a shit about Exalted to bother.
If the game turns out not to be a polished turd (and I'm not hopeful) my group might give it a go later on, once they've released some splats we actually want to play (hint: Solars ain't it), and there's been the usual round of debugging and errata.
I've always wondered why Exalted is relatively popular.
Quote from: Kiero;732909For a moment, I was tempted to go and post a thread with this very topic back on TBP (ie "why would anyone want to go back to 2001/2006 all over again"), then I realised it would be all the ammunition my haters need to try to get me banned again. Fundamentally, I don't give enough of a shit about Exalted to bother.
If the game turns out not to be a polished turd (and I'm not hopeful) my group might give it a go later on, once they've released some splats we actually want to play (hint: Solars ain't it), and there's been the usual round of debugging and errata.
I've had to keep my mouth shut about it over there as well. Sit on the D&D forums and there's just blast after blast at WotC for not showing enough about Next (even though it has put out all the playtests and has had tons of discussions), but then OPP are the holy seers with Exalted 3, even though they are pretty much only saying, "trust us - it will be awesome - we're even having like ... 9 ... people playtest some of it!"
I really, really was excited about Exalted 3 and revising the mechanics, but the Kickstarter soured me because all it was is Gaming Bling, and little of substance, and then as time has gone on I realize that even if I do have better mechanics, the setting is kind of stale now. Ah well, I still have a bit of hope, but honestly I'm 99% sure we are going to get combat that lasts forever once again.
Quote from: One Horse Town;732911I've always wondered why Exalted is relatively popular.
Because it's fantasy superheroes with East Asian pop (anime/manga) aesthetics. Munchkins love this shit.
Though I feel its popularity is overrepresented, at least over at RPGnet.
I have a love/hate thing with Exalted. I think it's a splendid premise -- kung fu demigods banished because of hubris return from spiritual exile as the empire that hunted them down crumbles to dust and old evils stir to threaten the whole world. I think the premise lends itself beautifully to sandbox gaming, mass battles, domain management and a bunch of other things I adore, plus over-the-top superheroics.
What killed Exalted for me is the cruft, both system and setting, that so quickly accumulated, plus the pretentious writing. That sounds rich coming from an avowed WW fan like myself, but really, Exalted makes Vampire: The Masquerade look like Paranoia by comparison.
It was one of these games that I wanted to like but ultimately couldn't. At least not enough to actually take on the challenge of running it. I might still give it a chance as a player, though, if the group was right.
Quote from: Skywalker;732827There has been consistent updates on all those matters via updates. The only thing they haven't said was a specific expected date as its still not certain enough.
I don't understand why they just don't come out and say it. Why do they feel the need for all the obfuscation? Why post which charms they are working on this month without telling you how many charms are done and how many are left?
I would be a lot more forgiving if they were just clear and open about shit.
Quote from: Ladybird;732878Kickstarter isn't the problem; if Exalted 3 had been based on the "traditional" "publisher fronts all of the costs, then releases" model, it would still be delayed.
Delays aren't even the problem, because a couple of days after it eventually arrives, it won't matter that it was late. A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad.
Communication is a problem. I get that the authors have set themselves a huge task, and I get the feeling they've bitten off more than they can chew, but the actual fanbase would be more accepting of them just admitting it.
The workload is the ridiculous thing, though. They've got to develop a game system with more moving parts than a Magic core set, on RPG industry pay scales. That's a fucking joke. It's not going to happen.
As ever with kickstarter - caveat emptor! Things could get delayed. Things could even be shit when they arrive - but you're not paying for something to be brilliant, you're paying for something to exist.
I think you right whats really bothering me is the lack of effective communication.
Quote from: Obeeron;732926I've had to keep my mouth shut about it over there as well. Sit on the D&D forums and there's just blast after blast at WotC for not showing enough about Next (even though it has put out all the playtests and has had tons of discussions), but then OPP are the holy seers with Exalted 3, even though they are pretty much only saying, "trust us - it will be awesome - we're even having like ... 9 ... people playtest some of it!"
I really, really was excited about Exalted 3 and revising the mechanics, but the Kickstarter soured me because all it was is Gaming Bling, and little of substance, and then as time has gone on I realize that even if I do have better mechanics, the setting is kind of stale now. Ah well, I still have a bit of hope, but honestly I'm 99% sure we are going to get combat that lasts forever once again.
I was really excited as well which is of course why I'm now so annoyed with the damn thing. I actually had considered dropping my pledge due to the lack of actual information during the kickstarter. But I decided to give them a chance since its the same group that had done Ink Monkeys and had been so open and clear with it. So umm yeah. I fucked up on that one.
Quote from: Kiero;732839Why do you even care about the release of the initial product? It's for the same old, played-out "Solars against the world" that we've had for over a decade. But with a slightly reworked system and a heavy side of "trust us, it will be awesome even though it's the same Storyteller shit". With bonus "no support for any other type of Exalt yet" - and good luck on them appearing.
Well the honest truth is I've never gotten to play any version of Exalted. My groups look at the rules and say "what the fuck is this?" and stop right there. In fairness I think they are largely right. The rule set is a super complicated mess. I will freely admit to not even understanding how 2e is supposed to work much less how it actually does. I try to read about the tick system and suddenly I want to do anything else.
The other thing is I think there is a lot of good in the setting and with a good system its something I think could be fun.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;732959I would be a lot more forgiving if they were just clear and open about shit.
I understand your concern. I guess just don't feel like they are obfuscating matters as much as you suggest, especially compared to a number of other KSs I can think of. In any case, they are behind schedule, so you are right to gripe.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;732959Well the honest truth is I've never gotten to play any version of Exalted. My groups look at the rules and say "what the fuck is this?" and stop right there.
FWIW I don't think 3e is going to solve this issue. The rules may be more streamlined, but the added focus that the developers give to the rules in order to fix various issues, tends to aggravate this reaction IME.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;732959My groups look at the rules and say "what the fuck is this?" and stop right there.
This is of course a lie; I challenge you to actually FIND any rules buried in those love letters to Naruto that they pass off as rulebooks :D :D
Quote from: One Horse Town;732911I've always wondered why Exalted is relatively popular.
I don't know that it is.
RPGnet skews perception, but IRL it seems like it was a solid seller for WW in a time when their other books weren't selling much anymore. It probably never even hit #3.
Here are links to the latest Exalted news:
http://nishkriya.com/
http://avatarcomic.net/ExaltedWiki/mediawiki-1.19.1/index.php?title=Main_Page
To be fair, I believe they have been somewhat open about their delay issues, especially in regards to the developer's illness.
But I pretty much gotten to the point where I really don't care when or if Exalted 3e ever gets released. Since I am only one customer, its really no big loss to them.
This is coming from someone who used to own the whole entire Exalted run, 1st and second edition(sadly my 2nd books were stolen from me).
Quote from: Skywalker;732964I understand your concern. I guess just don't feel like they are obfuscating matters as much as you suggest, especially compared to a number of other KSs I can think of. In any case, they are behind schedule, so you are right to gripe.
FWIW I don't think 3e is going to solve this issue. The rules may be more streamlined, but the added focus that the developers give to the rules in order to fix various issues, tends to aggravate this reaction IME.
I can see you point of view. I still don't get the people on the kickstarter comments page that treat it like its some kind of strange fan club you have to pay entrance to and maybe if your lucky they will give you something.
I'm also concerned it will be "streamlined" but still be too wonky for me to actually play.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;732965This is of course a lie; I challenge you to actually FIND any rules buried in those love letters to Naruto that they pass off as rulebooks :D :D
Hey! That's an insult to Naruto! The Naruto universe is way more consistent and easier to make rules for than the Exalted system or universe! :D:D
Quote from: J Arcane;732967I don't know that it is.
RPGnet skews perception, but IRL it seems like it was a solid seller for WW in a time when their other books weren't selling much anymore. It probably never even hit #3.
I've always had the feeling Exalted was a nitche game. It has strong and consistent sales but never was a huge hit. It's fans though are quite loud and make it seem more popular than it numerically is.
Quote from: Starglyte;732985Here are links to the latest Exalted news:
http://nishkriya.com/
http://avatarcomic.net/ExaltedWiki/mediawiki-1.19.1/index.php?title=Main_Page
To be fair, I believe they have been somewhat open about their delay issues, especially in regards to the developer's illness.
But I pretty much gotten to the point where I really don't care when or if Exalted 3e ever gets released. Since I am only one customer, its really no big loss to them.
This is coming from someone who used to own the whole entire Exalted run, 1st and second edition(sadly my 2nd books were stolen from me).
Ohhh they posted another update that tells me nothing. Joy!
I understand your position and I'm fast approaching it myself. That makes me sad and it really is a loss for the developers. Because I'm sure I'm not the only one approaching your position and I'm sure your not the only one already there. I will remember this experience when I'm thinking of new games to pick up.
Quote from: One Horse Town;732911I've always wondered why Exalted is relatively popular.
Oh, I don't wonder why it WAS popular when it first came out, at all.
I wonder why it's still popular, given that its transitional Storyteller system, like ABERRANT, is a case of "turn it up to 11 when the amplifier only goes to 6" and Second Edition was basically the same thing, only overcomplicated.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;733020its transitional Storyteller system, like ABERRANT, is a case of "turn it up to 11 when the amplifier only goes to 6"
That is a good way to describe it! :D
Quote from: Kiero;732909For a moment, I was tempted to go and post a thread with this very topic back on TBP (ie "why would anyone want to go back to 2001/2006 all over again"), then I realised it would be all the ammunition my haters need to try to get me banned again. Fundamentally, I don't give enough of a shit about Exalted to bother.
This has become my own view of a great many things on TBP really...with the same general conclusion.
Quote from: One Horse TownI've always wondered why Exalted is relatively popular.
The original premise is super awesome. I'm not being ironic btw, it really is. "Ancient Myth + S&S + Tanith Lee & Cook* + Anime/Manga Fantasy Superheroes" is a SUPER AWESOME premise. I mean seriously it is, it hits nearly all of my own fandoms. There hadn't been big proper S&S settings for a while save maybe Dark Sun (wich had been discontinued for years and that's if you count that as S&S rather than AD&Dified dark S&P), and Exalted hit S&S in a very different way than usual being about OTT Moorcockian types rather than gritty types. And yes I do love the setting, it's one of the great fantasy settings.
However the original premise was fairly quickly diluted and it seems to have mainly become "Shonen Superheroes in Magic China" later on, wich is very disappointing (not that I mind either Shonen (when good) or Mythic China (I've loved Ancient Chinese history for like 25 years) but...the original premise was this AND WAY MUCH MORE). Oh and the "need for lots of sourcebooks to play stuff other than Solar Exalts, argh".
Oh and the system? Urgh. I'd freaking love an OSR take on Exalted and so, I strongly suspect, would most people here.
Quote from: The Ent;733033Oh and the system? Urgh. I'd freaking love an OSR take on Exalted and so, I strongly suspect, would most people here.
By this do you mean a B/X or S&W Exalted, or a retroclone of the original rules but with an old school mindset?
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;733037By this do you mean a B/X or S&W Exalted, or a retroclone of the original rules but with an old school mindset?
Mainly the former really, the latter could probably be very cool as well (
Arduin is oldschool after all, the meme that "oldschool means random losers getting murdered by kobolds" isn't really true - well it can be but doesn't have to) but I think the setting really deserves a way easier and more streamlined rules system.
Something like S&W Exalted would probably rock imo.
I think Exalted - even channeled through AD&D - is entirely do-able. Take the Deities & Demigods book, use the Chinese and Japanese...well, hell, use all the mythoi in there, plus the rules for above 18 scores, figure a good way to generate characters with scores that high (d10+15, maybe? avg. would be 20), have "first" level be like...10th level AD&D and go from there.
Also and obviously remove demi-human level limits for characters.
Might have to dive into psionics too.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;732959The other thing is I think there is a lot of good in the setting and with a good system its something I think could be fun.
Have you tried any of the simplification hacks, like Qwixalted?
Basically, it needs a system that says "fuck dealing with plebs at the individual level, we're not mechanically interested in them" and assumes that it's only going to deal with Special People and societies.
It said when I see a FATE mod of Exalted and I have to agree that the fate version is better than the storyteller version. Then again that is not my fault. Nor is it the fault of the system really. Storyteller can be pretty decent if it wasn't for the weird charm mechanics that the developers shove into it.
I am comparing this to Scion. While not perfect Scion does use storyteller system and is a lot more understandable. People call it Exalted lite, but I call it Exalted done right in terms of system alone.
Quote from: The Ent;733038Mainly the former really, the latter could probably be very cool as well (Arduin is oldschool after all, the meme that "oldschool means random losers getting murdered by kobolds" isn't really true - well it can be but doesn't have to) but I think the setting really deserves a way easier and more streamlined rules system.
Something like S&W Exalted would probably rock imo.
I've thought about how an OSR-style system might deal with some of the interesting problems that an Exalted-type setting presents to a game.
The biggest is the power gap involved. Conventional "mountains o' hit points" differences between Solars and mortals don't really convey the kind of qualitative difference between them- yet at the same time, you don't want to simply write in Immunity To Mortals as part-and-parcel of Solarity or else you make 99.9% of the actors in the setting totally irrelevant to the PCs. The setting itself wants to make novice Solars pay some attention to mobs of mortal-level opponents, however the system might not cooperate with that description.
There's also the issue of a mechanical reification of awesomeness. The vast Charm lists of Exalted might get a sneer from some quarters, but a lot of players really enjoy having those specific reality-bending bits of awesomeness attached to their character. Not only does it give them an explicitly-provided resource to use, it also gives a specific example of the kind of awesome thing they're able to do. We all can fill in the blank on "What things should a former peasant pig farmer be good at?" It's a little harder to wing "What should a former God-Emperor of the Flying Desert be good at?", particularly when the former GE is supposed to be able to ignore the laws of reality now and then.
This mechanical reification is great and all, but how exactly do you phrase it in OSR language? Some of it is easy enough- "You can do X now', where X is flying, or speaking any language, or becoming invisible while in sunlight, or whatever other qualitatively unique ability might be referenced. But what about all those skill boosters? Don't you need a skill system for that? And those combat buffs- how do you integrate that into an OSR game so that you get the right mix of demigod-stomping and meaningful risk? And that all leaves aside the question of a political endgame, which Exalted never really did grapple with in a coherent way.
I've edged a little toward a solution I like with my new Scarlet Heroes game, and I'm playing with other elements in the SWN superhero game I've got on the back burner, but it's really a complicated and interesting problem.
Quote from: SineNomine;733091I've edged a little toward a solution I like with my new Scarlet Heroes game, and I'm playing with other elements in the SWN superhero game I've got on the back burner, but it's really a complicated and interesting problem.
It's interesting that you say that, because as I was looking through Scarlet Heroes, I saw things like the Fray die and wondered if it would be possible to do something that was a blend of Exalted-style high-powered sword & sorcery with OSR rules via that.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;732959Well the honest truth is I've never gotten to play any version of Exalted. My groups look at the rules and say "what the fuck is this?" and stop right there. In fairness I think they are largely right. The rule set is a super complicated mess. I will freely admit to not even understanding how 2e is supposed to work much less how it actually does. I try to read about the tick system and suddenly I want to do anything else.
Yeah, for me the 2nd edition rules (I'm not familiar with 1st ed) read like they were intended to lead to you building super-heroic characters, but you got better results by focusing on being a super-accountant. I don't know what the mote economy was intended to add to the game, but the complexity it added sure weighed against it in my book. Like, should the Golden God-Kings of Creation really be spending so much time micromanaging their juice?
Quote from: Alathon;733330Yeah, for me the 2nd edition rules (I'm not familiar with 1st ed) read like they were intended to lead to you building super-heroic characters, but you got better results by focusing on being a super-accountant. I don't know what the mote economy was intended to add to the game, but the complexity it added sure weighed against it in my book. Like, should the Golden God-Kings of Creation really be spending so much time micromanaging their juice?
You know... a game about super-heroic accountants sounds like it could be fun. Sadly, I totally agree though the mechanics for 2nd edition are bad just bad...
Quote from: Ladybird;733065Have you tried any of the simplification hacks, like Qwixalted?
Basically, it needs a system that says "fuck dealing with plebs at the individual level, we're not mechanically interested in them" and assumes that it's only going to deal with Special People and societies.
I haven't but I've really been thinking of giving it a shot in something like Ore or M&M and seeing how it goes.
http://nishkriya.com/Threads/Details/4508
Quote from: Holden: From Onyx Path ForumPretty much. Our way of doing things is not the current industry standard way of doing things. Exalted is not another product; it's Exalted. It has its own needs. If I ever get to develop a 20th anniversary WoD book, I'll do the whole open dev thing. It would be neither wise nor desirable for EX3.
Yeah, this isn't exactly a good way to build better ties between you and your fans. This reads to me "we will do whatever we damn well please and you better deal with it."
Nor is stating that writing updates isn't a priority getting the book done is. Which he does in earlier in that thread. The two things aren't binary! Writing good updates should be an outgrowth of your work on the book and they shouldn't take a particularly long time. Particularly once a month or every two weeks.
I think Holden still thinks they are working for White Wolf of the 1990s.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;733349I think Holden still thinks they are working for White Wolf of the 1990s.
Well, I do believe that's the idea. Of course the problem is they aren't working in the gaming market of the 1990s. :D
JG
I played in a very short campaign of Exalted years ago. I was really obsessed with Hong Kong movies at the time and was super-jazzed about getting to play a flying swordsman in a funky "Glorantha meets Anime" kung-fu fantasy world... then I started to actually make up my character. Ugh. It fucking felt like doing taxes. The whole "Charms" thing was as bad as feats in 3.5-with-all-the-books. Big letdown.
I lost interest in Exalted 3e when the rape culture drama happened and Holden groveled for forgiveness from his SJW sect. I'm not interested in playing a game that has a political agenda in mind.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;733349Nor is stating that writing updates isn't a priority getting the book done is. Which he does in earlier in that thread. The two things aren't binary! Writing good updates should be an outgrowth of your work on the book and they shouldn't take a particularly long time. Particularly once a month or every two weeks.
And then they mention something that can easily be misread, or doesn't make sense without another piece of information that hasn't been revealed yet, then they end up firefighting and having to explain themselves to an audience that doesn't really want to listen... Look at the recent d&d5 dev diaries for example. Then add in the "you made #number on kickstarter, why isn't my game here yet" crowd... No, role players have worked damn hard for their reputation as a toxic cesspool of entitlement issues.
But in regard to their other comments, yeah, they are developing another game. Exalted requires mechanical rigour, but frankly every developer should understand how the numbers of their game work, and be happy that they produce the results the designer wanted. If they're not happy with that... well, if you get a job on a farm, don't come to me complaining that your wellies are covered in shit.
Quote from: Ladybird;733429And then they mention something that can easily be misread, or doesn't make sense without another piece of information that hasn't been revealed yet, then they end up firefighting and having to explain themselves to an audience that doesn't really want to listen... Look at the recent d&d5 dev diaries for example. Then add in the "you made #number on kickstarter, why isn't my game here yet" crowd... No, role players have worked damn hard for their reputation as a toxic cesspool of entitlement issues.
But in regard to their other comments, yeah, they are developing another game. Exalted requires mechanical rigour, but frankly every developer should understand how the numbers of their game work, and be happy that they produce the results the designer wanted. If they're not happy with that... well, if you get a job on a farm, don't come to me complaining that your wellies are covered in shit.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/23/the-ignorance-of-crowds-why-open-development-is-crap/
Latest news from John Morke, Ex3's lead developer, on his illness: http://www.gofundme.com/55z5l8
That's sounds terrible :( I wish him the best of luck.
The triple whammy of possible additional spreading, what sounds like (from that and his previous updates) depression and refusing to see a doctor sets off all sorts of alarm bells for me. What a horrible hand to be dealt. Hope someone close to him can jump on this and get him help, even if it is just palliative.
Quote from: Skywalker;733466Latest news from John Morke, Ex3's lead developer, on his illness: http://www.gofundme.com/55z5l8
That's sounds terrible :( I wish him the best of luck.
Poor fucking bastard. He should really,
really hand this over to someone else, and go take care of his health. Best wishes to him.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;733395I lost interest in Exalted 3e when the rape culture drama happened and Holden groveled for forgiveness from his SJW sect. I'm not interested in playing a game that has a political agenda in mind.
I just googled for it and found huge threads on tbp and reddit and livejournal and other places about this.
What a train wreck.
Quote from: The Butcher;733488Poor fucking bastard. He should really, really hand this over to someone else, and go take care of his health. Best wishes to him.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote from: The Butcher;733488Poor fucking bastard. He should really, really hand this over to someone else, and go take care of his health. Best wishes to him.
It must be a tremendously difficult situation for everyone involved. On the one hand, between dealing with all this and trying to keep up his GPA and going to college at the age of 33, this must all be hitting him like an absolute hammer and he clearly needs to ease back on something. On the other hand, he's making noises as though working on Exalted is the thing which keeps him together and pulling through. On the third hand, he's giving all the signs of someone who's not actually keeping it together and pulling through at all. Impossible to even guess what I'd do if I were his employer in such a situation.
Quote from: Warthur;733499It must be a tremendously difficult situation for everyone involved. On the one hand, between dealing with all this and trying to keep up his GPA and going to college at the age of 33, this must all be hitting him like an absolute hammer and he clearly needs to ease back on something. On the other hand, he's making noises as though working on Exalted is the thing which keeps him together and pulling through. On the third hand, he's giving all the signs of someone who's not actually keeping it together and pulling through at all. Impossible to even guess what I'd do if I were his employer in such a situation.
Designing games can be a great hobby, but when you take people's money and promise something in return, it becomes a job. Might be a part-time job, but a job nevertheless.
He sounds really, really sick. Ideally, he should take sick leave from his job(s)
and from his studies (seriously,
fuck your GPA. No academic curriculum looks good on a corpse) and, like everyone who donated advised him, go get himself treated.
Trust me, I work in healthcare, with super sick people, and I see this shit all the time.
I hadn't known how serious his health issues were until this thread; if working on it helps him deal with the issue, great, but I definitely think he should step back and let someone else take over as project lead for a while. He sounds like he needs medical help, and now.
Quote from: Ladybird;733504I hadn't known how serious his health issues were until this thread; if working on it helps him deal with the issue, great, but I definitely think he should step back and let someone else take over as project lead for a while. He sounds like he needs medical help, and now.
He's been this way for months now and sought medical help throughout the last half of 2013. I think he sees himself beyond that as it didn't get him anywhere. It's very sad and I hope he reconsiders.
Holden has been driving Exalted 3e forward with the rest of the team, but it might explain why Onyx Path are kind of reluctant to do more than just post progress. I can see the situation adding a great deal of uncertainty into the mix.
I may dislike exalted and so forth, but I wouldn't wish cancer on my worst enemies, much less some random dude who designs a game I don't like. So I really hope he pulls thru. He got dealt a shitty hand.
Quote from: Skywalker;733466Latest news from John Morke, Ex3's lead developer, on his illness: http://www.gofundme.com/55z5l8
That's sounds terrible :( I wish him the best of luck.
That is horrible. I really do hope he gets treatment and his health improves.
Quote from: Ladybird;733429And then they mention something that can easily be misread, or doesn't make sense without another piece of information that hasn't been revealed yet, then they end up firefighting and having to explain themselves to an audience that doesn't really want to listen... Look at the recent d&d5 dev diaries for example. Then add in the "you made #number on kickstarter, why isn't my game here yet" crowd... No, role players have worked damn hard for their reputation as a toxic cesspool of entitlement issues.
But in regard to their other comments, yeah, they are developing another game. Exalted requires mechanical rigour, but frankly every developer should understand how the numbers of their game work, and be happy that they produce the results the designer wanted. If they're not happy with that... well, if you get a job on a farm, don't come to me complaining that your wellies are covered in shit.
Working through avenues like Kickstarter requires a certain set of skills and there are expectations to it. If your not willing to deal with the expectations namely keeping your backers adequately informed then maybe you shouldn't use that medium.
I'm sympathetic to there issues. I really am. I know that they are in a very difficult position. If they aren't careful in their information release things could go wrong and lead to issues. But at the same time they have gone the other way by not releasing much information (very little if anything useful) they end up creating a whole different set of issues.
Quote from: J Arcane;733456http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/23/the-ignorance-of-crowds-why-open-development-is-crap/
I'm not asking to have feedback into the games development. All I'm asking for is to be informed as to what is going on. Whats the timeline? What is done and what isn't? It would be really nice if I knew how things actually worked in the game. But I understand the issues with that.
Quote from: NathanIW;733493I just googled for it and found huge threads on tbp and reddit and livejournal and other places about this.
What a train wreck.
Yeah, it was a train wreck.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;733517I may dislike exalted and so forth, but I wouldn't wish cancer on my worst enemies, much less some random dude who designs a game I don't like. So I really hope he pulls thru. He got dealt a shitty hand.
Hopefully it isn't cancer. It sometimes takes a while for the severity of an illness or condition like this to sink. Looking at the update posts in that link, I suspect he was far more optimistic a couple of months ago and now things are seeming a lot more serious. Sounds like it is really taking a toll on him.
Quote from: One Horse Town;732911I've always wondered why Exalted is relatively popular.
I loved the concept of being a weird mix of anime hero and Greek demigod, along with a great setting. Sadly, the rules were a huge letdown.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;733395I lost interest in Exalted 3e when the rape culture drama happened and Holden groveled for forgiveness from his SJW sect. I'm not interested in playing a game that has a political agenda in mind.
You know I always fail to see what good comes of this. Most of these social justice warriors don't even do any thing in real life much less go out and buy games. Those that do are just a tiny fraction at best. It is not worth making social justice warriors happy because it is not good for your pay check and frankly they are never happy. They rather spend more time in finding something to get piss off about and post it in their tumblr, or tweets.
As for the guy that is sick. I hope he gets better and he should drop Exalted. No RPG book is worth your health and you should focus on being healthy above all else. Seriously if not for the people that pay into the kickstarter than at the very least do it for yourself.
Quote from: Snowman0147;733535You know I always fail to see what good comes of this. Most of these social justice warriors don't even do any thing in real life much less go out and buy games. Those that do are just a tiny fraction at best. It is not worth making social justice warriors happy because it is not good for your pay check and frankly they are never happy. They rather spend more time in finding something to get piss off about and post it in their tumblr, or tweets.
Also, those succubus charms were awesomely creepy. Sanitizing them to appease people who don't really play much anyway was such a bad idea. Especially given that the entire uproar was based on a misinterpretation of the text and even after the designer explained what he meant, anyone pointing that out was shut out of the discussion and those offended just kept building upon the initial mistake
they made as if it was the designer's fault.
QuoteAs for the guy that is sick. I hope he gets better and he should drop Exalted. No RPG book is worth your health and you should focus on being healthy above all else. Seriously if not for the people that pay into the kickstarter than at the very least do it for yourself.
Maybe he can't afford to. Maybe he needs (or has already spent) the pay related to the project. I wish him well, but things could get very stuck for this project as a result.
Quote from: NathanIW;733554Also, those succubus charms were awesomely creepy. Sanitizing them to appease people who don't really play much anyway was such a bad idea. Especially given that the entire uproar was based on a misinterpretation of the text and even after the designer explained what he meant, anyone pointing that out was shut out of the discussion and those offended just kept building upon the initial mistake they made as if it was the designer's fault.
You have to love the fact that the noise machine was up in arms about a term with two definitions, and wouldn't stop screaming about how the worse one was the one that was being used. Talk about a crowd so far up it's ass it's verging on becoming a singularity.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;733556You have to love the fact that the noise machine was up in arms about a term with two definitions, and wouldn't stop screaming about how the worse one was the one that was being used. Talk about a crowd so far up it's ass it's verging on becoming a singularity.
Which begs the question in why do developers even bother to support these people? They are gonna hate you and not buy your product despite all your efforts to "fix" things for them. Social justice warriors don't give a single shred of care about solutions and fixing problems. All they care about is making you feel and look like shit as they ride their high horses to the next developer to victimize. They are a new type of internet troll.
Quote from: Snowman0147;733557Which begs the question in why do developers even bother to support these people?
You could make an argument that a good swath of Onyx Path are these kind of people at heart. They must have been totally shocked to be on the receiving end of this. I also bet they learned something that even when they explained what they really meant by the text, that the detractors still didn't stopped and even put forward the idea that their interpretation of the text was more correct than the person who wrote it telling them what he meant.
I never, ever would have guessed that it would have been white wolf related stuff that would have garnered the hate of this particular crowd.
Quote from: NathanIW;733560You could make an argument that a good swath of Onyx Path are these kind of people at heart. They must have been totally shocked to be on the receiving end of this. I also bet they learned something that even when they explained what they really meant by the text, that the detractors still didn't stopped and even put forward the idea that their interpretation of the text was more correct than the person who wrote it telling them what he meant.
I never, ever would have guessed that it would have been white wolf related stuff that would have garnered the hate of this particular crowd.
Seeing how Holden is the part of the problem that allowed this SJW Lynching Developers culture to develop, I'd say he well deserves a "Live by the sword...". Sadly, I'll admit that they also played me like a fiddle, though only for a buck, as I did throw one down Exalted's way in the middle of SJW flame war.
Now I am curious as what Onyx Path had done after that flame war. Did they learn their lesson and actually focus their products on people who would buy it, or still going with what the SJW crowd tells them to do like good little puppets?
Mind you I don't have the company. Hell I spent a good nine years buying world of darkness books. It just even I have to point out the flaws of that company and the freelancers that work for them.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;733528Hopefully it isn't cancer. It sometimes takes a while for the severity of an illness or condition like this to sink. Looking at the update posts in that link, I suspect he was far more optimistic a couple of months ago and now things are seeming a lot more serious. Sounds like it is really taking a toll on him.
Yeah, I don't think we've ever had confirmation of exactly what it is.
The mention of swelling starting up in his armpit is alarming because if it is lymphatic cancer, then once it starts spreading it takes you down mercilessly. On the other hand, swelling in other parts of the lymphatic system would be expected in a wide variety of lymph node infections.
Quote from: Warthur;733582The mention of swelling starting up in his armpit is alarming because if it is lymphatic cancer, then once it starts spreading it takes you down mercilessly. On the other hand, swelling in other parts of the lymphatic system would be expected in a wide variety of lymph node infections.
His ailment last year was a massive swelling in the side of his neck (it has since gone down as noted in his update). In light of this, the second swelling is ominous.
Yeah, and also last year his doctors were suggesting that they might need to do surgery in order to hack out that node and see what was going on with it. Dude was talking about "the knife or the hourglass" (the knife being the surgery and the hourglass being waiting it out) and seemed to be going for the latter.
Incidentally, holy shit USA sort out your medical system, people shouldn't be in the position of saying "well, I could have this potentially life-saving surgery, but it'll financially ruin me".
Quote from: Warthur;733586Yeah, and also last year his doctors were suggesting that they might need to do surgery in order to hack out that node and see what was going on with it. Dude was talking about "the knife or the hourglass" (the knife being the surgery and the hourglass being waiting it out) and seemed to be going for the latter.
Incidentally, holy shit USA sort out your medical system, people shouldn't be in the position of saying "well, I could have this potentially life-saving surgery, but it'll financially ruin me".
This has been sorted out. The sorting ended with "Fuck you if you're not rich, powerful, or well-connected." The system's purpose is what it does, and what it does is not hard to figure out.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;733587This has been sorted out. The sorting ended with "Fuck you if you're not rich, powerful, or well-connected." The system's purpose is what it does, and what it does is not hard to figure out.
It's a protection racket run for the benefit of medical insurers and Big Pharma, plain and simple. Which is why it costs more than everywhere else in the world, yet delivers less.
Quote from: Rincewind1;733562Seeing how Holden is the part of the problem that allowed this SJW Lynching Developers culture to develop, I'd say he well deserves a "Live by the sword...". Sadly, I'll admit that they also played me like a fiddle, though only for a buck, as I did throw one down Exalted's way in the middle of SJW flame war.
Man, that was great. Talk about getting mauled by your pet tiger. "There are two usages of this word, the common use and the medieval one. Why are these assholes screaming that the old ass horrid one must be the one I'm using. I guess I will just have to explain what I meant. Holy shit, they aren't listening, why aren't they listening?"
As for John Morke, you said you were sick, and couldn't afford the doctor cost, and the community raised seven times what your bills were. Stop being an asshole and go to the fucking doctor.
What I never got about that debacle was what took so long? White Wolf fluff has pretty much always been a crime against humanity. I don't see how the rape ghosts where a bridge too far given what WW has already published.
Quote from: Kiero;733590It's a protection racket run for the benefit of medical insurers and Big Pharma, plain and simple. Which is why it costs more than everywhere else in the world, yet delivers less.
No shit. I seen documentries of people leaving the country to get medical treatment. Seriously there is a whole industry for it. People who are too poor to afford surgery have the option to go to another country to get help from there. So far it had been successful and less expensive.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;733639What I never got about that debacle was what took so long? White Wolf fluff has pretty much always been a crime against humanity. I don't see how the rape ghosts where a bridge too far given what WW has already published.
It isn't. I seen and heard worst that white wolf made. So yeah first time I heard the SJW did attack any thing from white wolf. Maybe they never got the memo that onyx path is the new white wolf?
Quote from: The Ent;732852Yeah, I absolutely agree with Kiero. What's the point? If they'd streamlined everything and made all the Exalt types etc available in the main core rulebook then maybe but as it stands...why want this?.
Because I don't use the other Exalts as anything other than antagonist so don't need full rules for them. But I do enjoy the old played out shit but the rules, as they stand, suck ass for even that.
Maybe there's a tonal thing here too? People might be more willing to see repugnant shit in a horror game because, hey, it's horror, grim stuff happens and you're supposed to be appalled and outraged by it. Exalted always struck me as weird-for-weird's-sake fantasy which bent over backwards to incorporate any fantastic influence not represented in D&D, with the PCs as Super Saiyans, so dropping a heap of rape in there feels tonally inappropriate even if it is handled delicately.
As for the little girl who becomes a bloated monster in hell covered in orifices from which she gives births to entire species of hellspawn, holy shit put the edgy away Exalted people, that's even worse than the worst of the Black Dog shit.
Quote from: James Gillen;733020Oh, I don't wonder why it WAS popular when it first came out, at all.
I wonder why it's still popular, given that its transitional Storyteller system, like ABERRANT, is a case of "turn it up to 11 when the amplifier only goes to 6" and Second Edition was basically the same thing, only overcomplicated.
JG
I like the analogy.
Quote from: Warthur;733643Maybe there's a tonal thing here too? People might be more willing to see repugnant shit in a horror game because, hey, it's horror, grim stuff happens and you're supposed to be appalled and outraged by it. Exalted always struck me as weird-for-weird's-sake fantasy which bent over backwards to incorporate any fantastic influence not represented in D&D, with the PCs as Super Saiyans, so dropping a heap of rape in there feels tonally inappropriate even if it is handled delicately.
As for the little girl who becomes a bloated monster in hell covered in orifices from which she gives births to entire species of hellspawn, holy shit put the edgy away Exalted people, that's even worse than the worst of the Black Dog shit.
You know as a person that read some of the books of Exalted I have to say the little girl bit ain't even the worst of it. In fact I would even argue that is a better fate than other people had suffered in the setting. That speaks a whole lot of volume, but given the setting the world of darkness ain't shit compared to the horror that exalted can dish out.
You also have to keep in mind how much gaming culture has changed since the White Wolf/Black Dog heydays and now. Hell, its changed allot since Exalted was first marketed. Remember this is a game that used to inspires NC-17 content contests on Rpg.net that featured entries like a Lunar Lolita Zoophile and a Sidereal with a fetish for having sex with random internal organs he knocked loose from his lovers with super magical Kung Fu. These threads were generally accepted and fairly widely participated.
Quote from: Nexus;733647You also have to keep in mind how much gaming culture has changed since the White Wolf/Black Dog heydays and now. Hell, its changed allot since Exalted was first marketed. Remember this is a game that used to inspires NC-17 content contests on Rpg.net that featured entries like a Lunar Lolita Zoophile and a Sidereal with a fetish for having sex with random internal organs he knocked loose from his lovers with super magical Kung Fu. These threads were generally accepted and fairly widely participated.
Well yeah if you look at things over all gaming did improve over the years and this is despite the SJWs and other sub groups of the hobby from ruining things. Still Exalted was always the crazy horse that when it was mention people go, "WTF?" At times I imagine that was the entire point. It is basicly the Lady Gaga and Milly Cyrise of rpgs. When you see it you can't resist staring at it with confusion and disbelief.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;733639What I never got about that debacle was what took so long? White Wolf fluff has pretty much always been a crime against humanity. I don't see how the rape ghosts where a bridge too far given what WW has already published.
Cause this was one of their own. And the only thing that group likes better than finding a witch to burn, is tearing down one of their own.
I meant more that you have to consider culture shifts when trying to understand why things like Rape Charms trainwreck took place when that sort of material is nothing new in Exalted.
Quote from: Nexus;733650I meant more that you have to consider culture shifts when trying to understand why things like Rape Charms trainwreck took place when that sort of material is nothing new in Exalted.
It's more of RPG.net board culture than culture shift in general. Reddit sings a very different tune.
Quote from: Rincewind1;733651It's more of RPG.net board culture than culture shift in general. Reddit sings a very different tune.
Quoted for truth. The culture did shifted, but not to the extent of RPG.net board. RPG.net is just a small fraction of people that is simply not worth catering too compared vast majority people who don't even use the internet to role play. The people on the internet and in any thread are just small fish compared to the whale in real life. Mostly because people don't care about social issues. They just want to game in order to have fun.
Quote from: Rincewind1;733651It's more of RPG.net board culture than culture shift in general. Reddit sings a very different tune.
What is general tone on Reddit? I'm not familiar with it.
Quote from: Nexus;733650I meant more that you have to consider culture shifts when trying to understand why things like Rape Charms trainwreck took place when that sort of material is nothing new in Exalted.
Except it could be argued, correctly IMO, that those charms were as rapey as the male lead in a trashy romance book.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;733655Except it could be argued, correctly IMO, that those charms were as rapey as the male lead in a trashy romance book.
But they weren't anything particularly over the top compared to other things in the game since the beginning.
That is because Holden and the other writers want to ton it down to 6. The yozis have no chance to escape and the neverborn are forever stuck in their deathless state. The solars are not going to be as powerful as they once were and be more done to earth.
Quote from: Snowman0147;733660That is because Holden and the other writers want to ton it down to 6. The yozis have no chance to escape and the neverborn are forever stuck in their deathless state. The solars are not going to be as powerful as they once were and be more done to earth.
I meant as far as being "edgey" and shocking not power level wise.
My point still stands. They are toning down every thing and not just the power level. Why do you assume we don't know what we are talking about?
Quote from: Snowman0147;733663My point still stands. They are toning down every thing and not just the power level. Why do you assume we don't know what we are talking about?
I'm not assuming you don't know what you're talking about. I think we might be talking about two different things though. I don't think the reaction to the Abyssal charms was totally due to them being more "edgy" than anything else that's appeared in Exalted before but because there's been an increased sensitivity to such things overall. They can't be toning things down too (or weren't anyway) much in that regard as those charms were put fourth before the ruckus came up on rpg.net. Holden is part of the staff the originally wrote the charms in question and was trying to defend them before he knuckled under.
Quote from: Nexus;733664I'm not assuming you don't know what you're talking about. I think we might be talking about two different things though. I don't think the reaction to the Abyssal charms was totally due to them being more "edgy" than anything else that's appeared in Exalted before but because there's been an increased sensitivity to such things overall. They can't be toning things down too (or weren't anyway) much in that regard as those charms were put fourth before the ruckus came up on rpg.net. Holden is part of the staff the originally wrote the charms in question and was trying to defend them before he knuckled under.
Problem with that it is easy to defend your stuff. You just defend it and if they continue on you just ignore them. Tell them good day and just ignore them. If you have to make a response just say you will put them in consideration and never focus on it. Point is you don't have to deal with the SJW crowd and the truth is you won't loss much in terms of sales because they hardly buy any pnp rpgs in the first place.
What the fuck is "SJW"? People keep referring to it as though we should all know what it means.
Quote from: Kiero;733716What the fuck is "SJW"? People keep referring to it as though we should all know what it means.
It stands for "Social Justice Warrior." (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sjw)
Quote from: Kiero;733716What the fuck is "SJW"? People keep referring to it as though we should all know what it means.
My apologize and while Archangel explained it best SJWs are called social justice warriors. They do nothing other than complain, dog pile, and just generally make the other person feel like shit so they get a ego boost. Worst of all they don't even give a single shred of care about the topics they love to preach about. If it came time to actually physically, emotionally, or do something truly helpful to another human being they rather not do any thing at all. It is just a new type of troll.
Quote from: Kiero;733716What the fuck is "SJW"? People keep referring to it as though we should all know what it means.
"Some Just Whine."
My major gripe with them is that they been attacking game developers for years and generally spewing hatred to not only RPG hobby, but all hobbies. I mean if they were any other troll the game developers would brush them off as crazy, but the problem is they don't.
Instead developers just bow down and beg forgiveness. They go out their way to change games that many people were just perfectly fine with in the first place. What do these game developers get for their trouble and alienation of the majority of their fans? Just more scorn, suspicion, and just out right insults. What really tops this is that these people will not buy a game book. Yet developers will be more than happy to bow down to them which just irks me to no end.
Finally to really add it in the social justice warriors are not needed. They have no place in the hobby at all. Right now I am looking at a advertisement for Arrows of Indra. This is one of the few unique rpg games I seen that actually tries to respect a culture that isn't western. You get to see unique classes, unique places, and a setting that isn't generic fantasy. No social justice warrior did that. No it was written by a guy who call those people swine.
Quote from: Snowman0147;733764Right now I am looking at a advertisement for Arrows of Indra. This is one of the few unique rpg games I seen that actually tries to respect a culture that isn't western. You get to see unique classes, unique places, and a setting that isn't generic fantasy. No social justice warrior did that. No it was written by a guy who call those people swine.
And if I remember, the SJWs complained about Arrows too. Can't win.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;733768And if I remember, the SJWs complained about Arrows too. Can't win.
It's what they do.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;733768And if I remember, the SJWs complained about Arrows too. Can't win.
While there were a few online complaints that came to my attention, none of them seemed to resonate with people. I haven't received a single email complaint about the product at all.
Quote from: Snowman0147;733764Finally to really add it in the social justice warriors are not needed. They have no place in the hobby at all. Right now I am looking at a advertisement for Arrows of Indra. This is one of the few unique rpg games I seen that actually tries to respect a culture that isn't western. You get to see unique classes, unique places, and a setting that isn't generic fantasy. No social justice warrior did that. No it was written by a guy who call those people swine.
An interesting detail that may be relevant here; the siddhi(mage) on the cover of the book is transgendered (because the setting has a third gender) and including the character on the cover art was Pundit's idea.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;733769It's what they do.
Yep, that's what happens when a movement is fueled by outrage. It can never be appeased because appeasement is death for it. So if you do what it wants you won't do it enough. If you do it more then you won't do it right. If you do that, then something else will come up or the sensitivity level will upped a few notches and the cycle will start all over again.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;733791While there were a few online complaints that came to my attention, none of them seemed to resonate with people. I haven't received a single email complaint about the product at all.
I think that's more because Pundit just isn't as much of a high profile figure as he thinks he is. Since I haven't actually read Arrows of Indra it's not really my place to make judgements, but Dalits are a real group of people who to this day still subject to discrimination. I can see giving them stat modifiers in a RPG potentially being super offensive.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;733791While there were a few online complaints that came to my attention, none of them seemed to resonate with people. I haven't received a single email complaint about the product at all.
What were they complaining about is what has me curious, mainly due to the fact that I no jack about the game.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;733798I think that's more because Pundit just isn't as much of a high profile figure as he thinks he is. Since I haven't actually read Arrows of Indra it's not really my place to make judgements, but Dalits are a real group of people who to this day still subject to discrimination. I can see giving them stat modifiers in a RPG potentially being super offensive.
I will let Pundit address the specifics here, but what I can say is we sold a lot of copies of Indra, enough that I would have expected to hear from people who are offended by content. I can also say, when I reviewed the material Pundit sent in, and when I playtested it, I felt he handled things appropriately given the setting and the time period. I also think, based on my communications with him during development, that he was trying to handle the material sensitively. If you have trouble with the content, that is fine. Not everyone will read things the same. But don't see any issues myself and haven't had any negative feedback on that front.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;733799What were they complaining about is what has me curious, mainly due to the fact that I no jack about the game.
Very few of them did. Most focused on the old school mechanics rather than social issues. The few who did get into social issues mentioned things like Pundit not challenging the assumptions of the setting, and Gamergoyf's concern. Things like that.
Quote from: Snowman0147;733663My point still stands. They are toning down every thing and not just the power level. Why do you assume we don't know what we are talking about?
I don't think they're toning down anything. Frankly, in its own way, I think the setting is getting darker and more problematic, but that's more from the writers trying to add depth to the background. Like, barbarians and the Lunar Exalted. Or the Realm, and the West, and...
My outside view of the issues experienced by the current LDs is that when it comes to players options, they're treading carefully just because of things which were received very poorly in the past, like in late 2e, and specifically, say, the Infernals book. I hesitate to say more because a) I don't know what I'm cleared to talk about or what's been talked about already, because I don't keep up with the online talk, and b) I don't follow Exalted fandom since the 1e days/early, early 2e days. But as far as general setting changes to 3e, I know that I would call it far more nuanced, and thus more complicated, than earlier editions. At least that's the intention -- stuff always changes between when you talk about it and write it down and when it gets through development and to the customer.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;733802I will let Pundit address the specifics here, but what I can say is we sold a lot of copies of Indra, enough that I would have expected to hear from people who are offended by content.
I couldn't find anything about SJW and Indra. When I searched for exalted 3, it was very, very easy to find.
The only place I could even find someone bringing up the untouchable issue was this thread.
Pundit did display some excellent rhetorical skills with this blog post though:
http://therpgpundit.blogspot.ca/2013/10/cultural-diversity-in-rpgs.html
Quote from: gamerGoyf;733798I think that's more because Pundit just isn't as much of a high profile figure as he thinks he is. Since I haven't actually read Arrows of Indra it's not really my place to make judgements, but Dalits are a real group of people who to this day still subject to discrimination. I can see giving them stat modifiers in a RPG potentially being super offensive.
The dalits, for those who don't know what they are, are one of the castes; the lowest. They suffered terrible discrimination and (in spite of claims to the contrary) continue to be seriously discriminated against in modern India despite caste not being recognized by Indian law anymore.
I agree, its SUPER SUPER OFFENSIVE that people are discriminated on the basis of caste in the real world. So I refused to contribute to that offense by trying to do the job of whitewashing for those bigots and pretend that Indian society didn't have an oppressive caste system.
I guess you'd rather I had whitewashed it? Written a game about Epic fantasy India where there WASN'T a caste system?
Do you think that the Pseudo-activist SJWs wouldn't have then attacked me for "hiding the truth about dalit oppression" and saying "The pundit never once mentions dalits in his game!! How dare he! Discriminating against those people by trying to revise history and silence their voice"?
So to summarize: go fuck yourself, Swine.
Quote from: NathanIW;733838I couldn't find anything about SJW and Indra. When I searched for exalted 3, it was very, very easy to find.
The only place I could even find someone bringing up the untouchable issue was this thread.
Pundit did display some excellent rhetorical skills with this blog post though:
http://therpgpundit.blogspot.ca/2013/10/cultural-diversity-in-rpgs.html
Thanks!
Quote from: RPGPundit;733841I guess you'd rather I had whitewashed it? Written a game about Epic fantasy India where there WASN'T a caste system?
Do you think that the Pseudo-activist SJWs wouldn't have then attacked me for "hiding the truth about dalit oppression" and saying "The pundit never once mentions dalits in his game!! How dare he! Discriminating against those people by trying to revise history and silence their voice"?
You could just have caste not impact people stats. That is a thing you could have done that would have made your handling of the issue less offensive.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;733849You could just have caste not impact people stats. That is a thing you could have done that would have made your handling of the issue less offensive.
Isn't that the same as white washing it? Presenting an untouchable caste and then having a "life is fine for them!" approach in the game?
Quote from: Snowman0147;733720My apologize and while Archangel explained it best SJWs are called social justice warriors. They do nothing other than complain, dog pile, and just generally make the other person feel like shit so they get a ego boost. Worst of all they don't even give a single shred of care about the topics they love to preach about. If it came time to actually physically, emotionally, or do something truly helpful to another human being they rather not do any thing at all. It is just a new type of troll.
I don't dispute the existence of these people, but there's a contingent who lump
anyone who complains or criticises a game's content as SJW'ing or political correctness or "white knighting" or whichever new word they learned this week.
I mean, do we really need to include rapey material in games? Do game books really need art of characters being fuck- or power-fantasies? Do we really need to have some societal groups be "fair game" for attacking or making fun of? And the answer is "no, we don't need any of those things", but now the progressive well is just as poisoned as the regressive well...
If a game has content I don't like I either excise it if its overall salvageable or don't buy that game. I believe some material should have warning for content just like most other forms of fiction and informed reviews and word of mouth help people steer around things that might offend and traumatize them. But I don't think anything should verboten out of hand. There's too much variation in opinion.
So its not that the "SJW's" talk about their opinions and preferences but the attempt to cram what they want down everyone's else's throat.
Quote from: NathanIW;733853Isn't that the same as white washing it? Presenting an untouchable caste and then having a "life is fine for them!" approach in the game?
It's not like this is an easy sort of thing to handle, but not giving real world oppressed groups penalties to mental stats seems like a good start.
Quote from: NathanIW;733853Isn't that the same as white washing it? Presenting an untouchable caste and then having a "life is fine for them!" approach in the game?
It depends?
There's an excluded middle, obviously, that includes approaches based on the fact that we're not playing games wedded to historical fidelity, usually (and because when we are, we tend to be playing exceptional people, and history is full of exceptional people who broke the mold individually.) At the same time, people have to be cautious of erasure of groups which tend to get ignored.
I mean, I like the fact that Rokugan does not dwell on how shitty life was for the average peasant or
burukumen, because I'm playing in cinematic faux-Asia and I don't want to linger on a player-character's right to murder human beings by dint of an accident of birth. I also don't describe the shit-field that villages use for people to use the bathroom in some places. I don't view that as white-washing, it's just not germane to that kind of game. (D&D gets a similar pass. Medieval Europe wasn't known for its upward mobility in a lot of cases, but I have tons of poor villager's kids who rise to nobility.)
At the same time, a game that
does have notes about how shitty life was for a peasant isn't a loser. It all depends on technique. I'd prefer to see a lot of different approaches than one.
Quote from: Ladybird;733866I don't dispute the existence of these people, but there's a contingent who lump anyone who complains or criticises a game's content as SJW'ing or political correctness or "white knighting" or whichever new word they learned this week.
I mean, do we really need to include rapey material in games? Do game books really need art of characters being fuck- or power-fantasies? Do we really need to have some societal groups be "fair game" for attacking or making fun of? And the answer is "no, we don't need any of those things", but now the progressive well is just as poisoned as the regressive well...
Good point and my response is it really depends on the book. It depends on what type of game that is being run and playing. That is what boils down to it.
I mean if your going through a normal dungeon crawl where everyone is all relax and just want to have fun. No you don't need them all. It would actually hurt the game to have that dark content in it.
If your going into a dark gritty game that says fuck all to human rights. Expect some dark and horrible things to happen. If the game is like that and you give full permission to allow every thing don't complaining when bad things happen to you. While I can understand ground rules being place the fact is if you pc every thing you going to do harm to the setting and ruin the enjoyment people have for such a setting.
What separates a person with a complaint and a social justice warrior is that a normal person can move on. Don't like child death in a post apocalypse setting, then make a ground rule at your table. I am sure you friends will understand and have fun. That is not good enough for the social justice warrior though. They want to change the setting and game to their belief system. If they can't have that, then they want to ruin the career of the person that wrote the book. I believe Pundit can testify to that, or have a example of that actually happening to some one else. Point is a normal person with a complaint can be reasonable while a social justice warrior has reach the point that can't be reason with.
Quote from: Ladybird;733866I mean, do we really need to include rapey material in games? Do game books really need art of characters being fuck- or power-fantasies? Do we really need to have some societal groups be "fair game" for attacking or making fun of? And the answer is "no, we don't need any of those things", but now the progressive well is just as poisoned as the regressive well...
Of course not, but not including rape content and fetishism has nothing to do with being on board with progressivism, it has to do with not being a creepy loser.
Getting back to Exalted I'm not unsympathetic to the problem the current release "schedule" for Exalted 3rd presents. The idea of waiting years for their favorite Exalts to become playable -again- is daunting. Though the reasoning is pragmatic: "Solar against the World" as "played out" as some might feel it is is a common play style. I've heard it said to be the most common and they open up mortal play along with giving the most reason to include broad setting information in their book as they don't have a specific area (the Realm, Yu-shan, the Underworld, etc) of their own but come from all over (arguably Dragonblooded share this trait).
If they did include the full play rules for all the splats in the core book it would be tremendous and/or have little setting information and the follow up setting specific books might be less desirable unless the buyer was really interested in new fluff. As the majority of the complaints about 2ed are, IME, about the mechanics that's not a given. So aggravating as it is the choice to go through the whole release cycle does make some sense.
Personally, I'm not interested in the new fluff or much else aside from hopefully functional mechanics. Most of fluff spoilers have left me cold or I've actively disliked them, particularly the choice to add new splats to a setting (and a system) that seem to be creaking under the weight of what's there all ready.
As for "dialing it back to 6" mechanically, that's probably a good idea over all. As they don't seem to be changing in the system that much and Storyteller works best as more modest power levels. Personally I'm not hugely thrilled by the idea. One of the draws for Exalted for me was the "Fantasy Superhero" aspects. I wasn't aware of any intention of dialing things back as far as "edgy" content like sexuality, horror and violence. But it does follow given the crowd they seem to be trying to appease.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;733877It's not like this is an easy sort of thing to handle, but not giving real world oppressed groups penalties to mental stats seems like a good start.
To clarify, they have a -1 to Charisma; this is a reflection of their low social status. Given that every single human in the game has modifier to stats, and all have penalties as well as bonuses, its clearly making no judgment at all about any kind of natural 'hierarchy'. In other words, if I'd given dalits a -2 to everything and higher castes +2 to everything, you might have a fucking point. But as usual, you don't.
gamerGoyf, saying the Arrows of Indra rules gave lower caste characters a penalty to mental stats is a total misrepresentation of what the mechanics are doing.
As for the actual content the SJW objected to in the Exalted 3 material:
Spoiler
I happen to think that an evil immortal being who uses sex as a weapon, who's also into spirit summoning and whatnot, summoning a spirit that takes the form of an old flame of a target victim in order to life drain them through sex to be totally appropriate for games about things like that. And just because the spirit is forceful or relentless in its advances, doesn't mean it's "rapey." And even if it was, it's a magic demon sex spirit sent to drain your life force away. If there ever was a subject where being "rapey" was appropriate, this would be it.
Quote from: Ladybird;733866I mean, do we really need to include rapey material in games? Do game books really need art of characters being fuck- or power-fantasies? Do we really need to have some societal groups be "fair game" for attacking or making fun of? And the answer is "no, we don't need any of those things", but now the progressive well is just as poisoned as the regressive well...
I really can't figure out what rapey material really brings to a game. It brings nothing and worse yet adds negatives to the game. It makes people feel uncomfortable and hostile to the game. Its just a net loss. I totally understand the idea that maybe people shouldn't be comfortable at all times but games are games. They are supposed to be fun. Its hard to have fun when your freaked out over rapey material or some obvious intrusive fetish that someone put into the game.
Now as for how it applies to Exalted 3 well the issues is that the designers didn't think through the previews well. Then they didn't write the previews well. The two acts collided and created a horrible mess. That ultimately blew up in their faces. I have a hard time feeling bad for them for it because its their own fault.
They should have been a fuck load more careful. They knew the game had a unpleasant history of rapey material and strange fetishism. They knew the game had a reputation for it. They explicitly stated that they weren't going to do that. Then they wrote something strangely ambiguous and complained when no one gave them the benefit of the doubt, well surprise!
This is of course my opinion.
Thankfully that is your opinion. Point is there is some value in those unpleasant things and while I will never engage them in fantasy much less in real life you can't simply say it has no place. Especially Exalted which is known to be a very beautiful place as much as it is ugly. While there are things I rather just plain avoid at all cost I will point out taking them out of the game would actually harm the setting over all. Just because you see some thing in a fantasy setting that completely fiction and makes you angry doesn't give you the right to tell developers to remove it. That type energy is better off in real life.
Though I will give you the point in that the developers in for the third edition did promise a lot of things. I just think they promise too much and should just focus on streamlining the system to make it easier for new players. The setting itself shouldn't be touch at all because it is a very unique setting.
Sexual material is the sort of thing where you should have the option to use it, OR not use it. The fact that it gets used badly is why it has such a bad reputation, and I'm not totally sure it will ever get away from that. As for discrimination against castes, I think it would only be problematic if it were somehow central to the setting, and the main reason it isn't in L5R/Rokugan is that the non-samurai are basically ignored. The other option is to be upfront and include it as Pundit did with Arrows of Indra, and even then he said that caste strictures would usually mandate that different groups not mix in any case.
JG
Yeah James said it best. You should always leave that option out for sex. I still stand on the issue that if you see something in the setting you don't like that doesn't mean you should force the developers to remove it either. Just don't bother with it and never use it.
Quote from: Snowman0147;733990Thankfully that is your opinion. Point is there is some value in those unpleasant things and while I will never engage them in fantasy much less in real life you can't simply say it has no place. Especially Exalted which is known to be a very beautiful place as much as it is ugly. While there are things I rather just plain avoid at all cost I will point out taking them out of the game would actually harm the setting over all. Just because you see some thing in a fantasy setting that completely fiction and makes you angry doesn't give you the right to tell developers to remove it. That type energy is better off in real life.
Though I will give you the point in that the developers in for the third edition did promise a lot of things. I just think they promise too much and should just focus on streamlining the system to make it easier for new players. The setting itself shouldn't be touch at all because it is a very unique setting.
I understand your position. I don't share it but I understand it.
Still I think the biggest problem isn't that they included it but that they included it badly. If they had included it in a long form book the reaction would have been much less. Mostly because as you say in a later post its easy to ignore. But when its one of six charms on a two or three page preview. It will get a lot more attention. Then add in some hysterics and the designers having generally horrible public relations practices then you have... well what happened.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;733985Now as for how it applies to Exalted 3 well the issues is that the designers didn't think through the previews well. Then they didn't write the previews well. The two acts collided and created a horrible mess. That ultimately blew up in their faces. I have a hard time feeling bad for them for it because its their own fault.
And now we're back at "why don't designers talk to the community more".
Quote from: Snowman0147;733993Yeah James said it best. You should always leave that option out for sex. I still stand on the issue that if you see something in the setting you don't like that doesn't mean you should force the developers to remove it either. Just don't bother with it and never use it.
I don't think you even need to include it. It'll turn off groups that don't want sexual material, and won't go far enough for groups that do.
Put in the social influence skills, the mind control stuff, and leave the rest to the table, ie. if your game is more rapey than Vampire (A game about walking rape allegorys) then you've done it wrong.
If you're playing Conan, or any other game where the characters are just assumed to be doing plenty of shagging because they like it... again, why do you need rules? Maybe a stamina check at most, but "you spend the night fucking, fade to black. The next morning..." should do everything required.
Quote from: Ladybird;733999And now we're back at "why don't designers talk to the community more".
It really seems to be a bit of a theme with these designers and this project.
Its not all the ways the case of a groups that don't want sex getting turned off and groups that want thinking that it doesn't have enough. Many settings have levels of sexual content that are appropriate to their fans and groups that want less just ignore it. Or play a different game.
Some groups want more detail on sexuality that "You do it, fade to black" because its consequences and impact has more detail at your table or Hell, they just find it enjoyable, the same reason some people enjoy sex in their books, movies and television shows though it can be "fade to black". I mean, you can summarize violence in the same manner but few people do because its otherwise fun.
I really believe in freedom of choice. I have my preferences but they're not everyone's and demanding that they be the only option and everyone can either deal with it or not play seems really arrogant and unfair. That's what why SJW attitude annoys me not their particular band of opinion.
As for Exalted, well Creation is a place ruled by all too human demigods with vast power, resources and precious little accountability. Being of great passions and ability but with very human drives and needs. Just like real history there's going to be a fair amount of sex as both a positive and negative. Personally I think ignoring it would be whitewashing though that's probably not the right term for a completely fictional setting. It would feel conspicuous in its absence, like the setting was being sanitized for children. Again, IMO. One of the things I liked about Exalted was that it wasn't sanitized, the dark, disturbing and sexual were painted in vividly just as much as the heroic, powerful and glorious and with just many fantastic touches.
The whats "rapey" issue is at least somewhat subjective too There are some that feel that if a character of high social acumen, charisma and physical beauty can talk another healthy, sexually active but otherwise unattached person into having sex with them in a relatively short amount of time then that's "rapey" if that ability is summarized by skill rolls.
Anyone have any thoughts on the new Exalted types? Personally, I think they're overkill at this point. The game is jam packed with playable types some of which don't have firm niches of their own (Lunars). Adding more feel overcomplicating the setting and watering down the concept of Exalt. Particularly since one of the new ones seem to stretch the concept, IMO.
Quote from: Nexus;734034Anyone have any thoughts on the new Exalted types? Personally, I think they're overkill at this point. The game is jam packed with playable types some of which don't have firm niches of their own (Lunars). Adding more feel overcomplicating the setting and watering down the concept of Exalt. Particularly since one of the new ones seem to stretch the concept, IMO.
I feel there are already too many types as it is (what's the point in Infernals? Why do we need Alchemicals?), so I cannot see any value in adding yet more.
Too many exalted types. What was wrong with just solars, abyssals, siderals, lunars, terrestirals, alchemicals, and infernals. Given the fact that Holden was hell bent in making sure the yozis will never be free I am failing to see why we even need infernals. I guess we need a true unrepenting villain to go along with the abyssals who can repent? Still we shouldn't just be shoving in new exalted.
The charms that got people all up in arms were not just "let's have sex in the game". They were magical attacks. The sending of a seducing spirit in the form of a lost love or old flame to eat someone's soul. There's huge potential here for interesting dramatic shit.
The newer products related to White Wolf's games have also taken a menu approach. Where you decide in advance what themes or elements are important to you and which are not. So the whole approach of these games already includes taking some time to think about what you want and don't want in the game.
Quote from: Nexus;734034Anyone have any thoughts on the new Exalted types? Personally, I think they're overkill at this point. The game is jam packed with playable types some of which don't have firm niches of their own (Lunars). Adding more feel overcomplicating the setting and watering down the concept of Exalt. Particularly since one of the new ones seem to stretch the concept, IMO.
I'm just not sure what they are trying to accomplish with them. The Liminals seem to be death oriented exalts that are not Abyssals. If you want that why don't you just rewrite Abyssals? Your creating a new edition your allowed to make huge changes. Abyssals are damn hard to play in anyway as it is and even harder to play as non-loyalist. So why don't you rewrite them to make them work better as independents and call it a day?
Quote from: Kiero;734040I feel there are already too many types as it is (what's the point in Infernals? Why do we need Alchemicals?), so I cannot see any value in adding yet more.
There are a lot of options and I sometimes don't quite get them all but it seems that people like them. *Shrug* But I can't figure out how the new ones will cover new ground.
Quote from: Snowman0147;734060Too many exalted types. What was wrong with just solars, abyssals, siderals, lunars, terrestirals, alchemicals, and infernals. Given the fact that Holden was hell bent in making sure the yozis will never be free I am failing to see why we even need infernals. I guess we need a true unrepenting villain to go along with the abyssals who can repent? Still we shouldn't just be shoving in new exalted.
I don't get it either. If the Neverborn can destroy the world the Yozi should be able to escape. I kinda get the feeling Holden isn't a fan of the Infernals. Granted that book had huge nasty screaming issues. But there were some nifty ideas in it too.
*shrug* I really don't understand Holden's thinking on a lot of issues and he seems very reluctant to explain stuff. I kinda suspect he runs on the "it seems cool to me" and the "i dont like it" system. You know the one where they never explain shit beyond those two answers.
Hmmm the development team not communicating well again. Hmmm... The theme returns.
Quote from: Nexus;734034Anyone have any thoughts on the new Exalted types? Personally, I think they're overkill at this point. The game is jam packed with playable types some of which don't have firm niches of their own (Lunars). Adding more feel overcomplicating the setting and watering down the concept of Exalt. Particularly since one of the new ones seem to stretch the concept, IMO.
It was what most interested me in Exalted 3e when I was following it, with the map/setting changes being a very close second.
When I was following Exalted 3e last year, I was chomping at the bit to learn more about the new types. Sad for me(but for lucky for others), the first new Exalt type to get their hardcover will be the Exigents, whom I have very little interest in.
I don't see a place for the extra splats either, mainly due to the usual lack of hard info, with exceptions being made for Exigents which I think are rather awesome. Infernals have no place at my table, and while the concept of Alchemicals is sound, since I can't see Autothon not making his own Chosen, their setting is more shit dark than Creation proper, and actually sending them into Creation makes everything worse all around.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;734145I don't see a place for the extra splats either, mainly due to the usual lack of hard info, with exceptions being made for Exigents which I think are rather awesome.
I am the same. The Exigents, as an excuse for the GM to have a single cohesive set of antagonists that are easy to create and use, is pretty genius for Exalted IMO as it needs to give GMs all the help it can. The other new Exalted are of little interest to me.
I'm mainly hoping that Exigent splatbook will provide at least a skeletal charm design system and guidelines. Seems like it would almost have too since the "splat" is diverse. Expecting GMs to totally wing it or what wait for published material for what is such a potentially large and diverse group would suck. Or Exigents will just have a limited list of generic abilities where you can possibly shift the flavor text around. Which seems to be something they want to avoid.
Quote from: Nexus;734395I'm mainly hoping that Exigent splatbook will provide at least a skeletal charm design system and guidelines. Seems like it would almost have too since the "splat" is diverse. Expecting GMs to totally wing it or what wait for published material for what is such a potentially large and diverse group would suck. Or Exigents will just have a limited list of generic abilities where you can possibly shift the flavor text around. Which seems to be something they want to avoid.
One would hope. As it is, I can see more uses for them than the not-Prometheans and not-Siderials.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;734463One would hope. As it is, I can see more uses for them than the not-Prometheans and not-Siderials.
A charm design system/guidelines would be frankly one of the most useful things in the line.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;734480A charm design system/guidelines would be frankly one of the most useful things in the line.
Well, that and aryifact design rules that don't boil down to 'make shit up'.
Personally I have always felt trying to make nearly everything playable was a mistake. It put allot of strain on a system that was already unsteady, gave a company not particularly well known for intricate mechanics the job of trying to keep several "classes" and hundreds of effects functional and balanced. Then there were the narrative issue of trying to make all sides morally "equal" so no one who wanted to play a particular group was "made" to play a villain. It turned into a muddled mess.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;732965This is of course a lie; I challenge you to actually FIND any rules buried in those love letters to Naruto that they pass off as rulebooks :D :D
As a shameless weeaboo, I direly wish this were the case
As it is, Exalted can't even hold a candle to something like Tenra Bansho Zero, setting-wise. Exalted is about as anime as World of Warcraft (and likely takes more of its actual inspiration from there, despite claims otherwise).
Quote from: Shauncat;734996As a shameless weeaboo
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1/1798111_1491414847752760_858036517_n.jpg)
Why wait for Exalted 3 ? (I am kidding, I totally understand the growing imaptience of the backers, even if I'm not one of them) If you like Exalted, you must have a truckload of books from the earlier editions, hack it with the 13th Age (the Archmage engine SRD will do the trick if you don't want to buy the 13th Age book). Forge demi-gods ! Shape Creation ! Be Exalted !
This thread might be of interest. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?719650-Never-played-Exalted-Ask-the-Developer)
It's over on That Other RPG Forum. :)
Okay, sorry, that was basically a waste of time. The same hype that anyone that's followed Exalted has been over and over again more "Its awesome, more awsomer than anything else ever! Trust us..." with no precious few actual details on -whats- awesome and with a light dusting of arrogance and shitting all over other systems and playstyles.
So, your typical Exalted hype thread. Nothing to see here.
Quote from: Nexus;735771Okay, sorry, that was basically a waste of time. The same hype that anyone that's followed Exalted has been over and over again more "Its awesome, more awsomer than anything else ever! Trust us..." with no precious few actual details on -whats- awesome and with a light dusting of arrogance and shitting all over other systems and playstyles.
So, your typical Exalted hype thread. Nothing to see here.
Which is a damn shame, because they were teasing out some interesting points.
I was interested to hear that 3rd edition is going for a "momentum" system in combat whereby instead of whittling down your opponent bit by bit each combat round, instead you're trying to build up momentum which, once you've built up enough, you can unleash to devastating effect. That sounds like an interesting way to simulate fights where people trade blows to little apparent effect until someone finds an opening to get a killing blow in, like you get in martial arts movies, though equally Exalted has never really felt enough like a conventional martial arts setting for me to use it for such a purpose.
People are also asking awkward questions like "how the hell are you supposed to make up NPCs on the fly in this system?", which is heartening.
The Momentum stuff is interesting but its one fo the few mechanical details that they've deigned to share with us it was released months ago. Maybe I'm acting pissy but I'm starting to feel a little jerked around. It's all the same hype as the last editions (some of it seems to even contradict what we were told initially), almost 0 mechanical information and more promises that it'll be awesome, trust us! Post some solid information or finish and release the dame game. Enough with the teasers, already.
Quote from: Nexus;735771Okay, sorry, that was basically a waste of time. The same hype that anyone that's followed Exalted has been over and over again more "Its awesome, more awsomer than anything else ever! Trust us..." with no precious few actual details on -whats- awesome and with a light dusting of arrogance and shitting all over other systems and playstyles.
So, your typical Exalted hype thread. Nothing to see here.
Yeah, I saw that. There is umm very little of anything in it. That's being quite kind to the developers.
Although the 2 hour comment is interesting in its vagueness. I wonder if they mean the rules require two is hours of study for you to get start. Or it takes two hours to make a character. Or if it takes two hours to prep a group on playing the game.
Quote from: Warthur;735821Which is a damn shame, because they were teasing out some interesting points.
I was interested to hear that 3rd edition is going for a "momentum" system in combat whereby instead of whittling down your opponent bit by bit each combat round, instead you're trying to build up momentum which, once you've built up enough, you can unleash to devastating effect. That sounds like an interesting way to simulate fights where people trade blows to little apparent effect until someone finds an opening to get a killing blow in, like you get in martial arts movies, though equally Exalted has never really felt enough like a conventional martial arts setting for me to use it for such a purpose.
People are also asking awkward questions like "how the hell are you supposed to make up NPCs on the fly in this system?", which is heartening.
The questions are quite satisfying. There are some softball questions but even they are ummm not being handled well. This kinda comes back to one of my earlier thoughts that these guys desperately need a PR person. They need someone desperately who can actually communicate and say things. someone who isn't inside the developers bubble and can translate.
I do like the idea of the momentum system. But I'm really afraid it will become just another thing I have to keep track of. In a game with several things to keep track of as it is.
Over the years some attitudes among the Exalted fanbase and staff have become really grating. One of them is the idea that Exalted "invented" high action cinematic play, that no other game emphasizes it or even capable of it and that's what makes Exalted "special". And that 'tude is very apparent in that thread. And particularly ironic since in the last two iterations of the mechanics if you played that way you ended either handwaving most things or actively fighting the system to pull it off.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;735974The questions are quite satisfying. There are some softball questions but even they are ummm not being handled well. This kinda comes back to one of my earlier thoughts that these guys desperately need a PR person.
It's fucking hilarious that they can still fuck things up when they've had free access and control of the biggest general RPG board out there for years.
Jesus, half the staff at RPGnet are, or were, WW staffers and writers.
It's free gravy and they still manage to shit in it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;736042It's fucking hilarious that they can still fuck things up when they've had free access and control of the biggest general RPG board out there for years.
Jesus, half the staff at RPGnet are, or were, WW staffers and writers.
It's free gravy and they still manage to shit in it.
What bothers me even more is that the Developer stopped posting in his own hype thread after a day! None of the other developers picked it up and continued it or bothered to even show up. I know you visit the forum because two of the primary writers of the book are moderators on that forum! If Hatewheel couldn't continue the thread one of the others should have.
If you cant manage to build good will (or hang around) in your own threads that you start then something is wrong. How are people supposed to trust you and your development skills when you cant answer simple boilerplate questions well or show up?
I found the question about "what do you do in this game?" and resulting non-answers interesting (IIRC the first answer was just "you play one of the Exalted"). Ultimately I think some people are possibly being a bit disingenuous with the re-asking of the question - as a non-Exalted player it looks to me from what's been said so far that the answer is simply that there isn't a default mode of play for Exalted. Which is a perfectly reasonable answer, if a non-optimal one (as you're then basically falling back on either setting mastery or strong pre-game player-defined goals to drive play).
Quote from: Grymbok;736067I found the question about "what do you do in this game?" and resulting non-answers interesting (IIRC the first answer was just "you play one of the Exalted"). Ultimately I think some people are possibly being a bit disingenuous with the re-asking of the question - as a non-Exalted player it looks to me from what's been said so far that the answer is simply that there isn't a default mode of play for Exalted. Which is a perfectly reasonable answer, if a non-optimal one (as you're then basically falling back on either setting mastery or strong pre-game player-defined goals to drive play).
It is a valid question but it seems to me if you want to promote the game its a question that you want to develop a good answer for.
But your right some people maybe pushing it unfairly.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;736066What bothers me even more is that the Developer stopped posting in his own hype thread after a day! None of the other developers picked it up and continued it or bothered to even show up. I know you visit the forum because two of the primary writers of the book are moderators on that forum! If Hatewheel couldn't continue the thread one of the others should have.
If you cant manage to build good will (or hang around) in your own threads that you start then something is wrong. How are people supposed to trust you and your development skills when you cant answer simple boilerplate questions well or show up?
Sometimes the Exalted crew gives off a vibe like they're annoyed by their own fanbase. But frankly, that was prevalent with White Wolf overall.
I have to say, the split between the way Onyx Path is handling Exalted and the cool shit they're bringing out for World of Darkness (both incarnations) is surprising. Vampire 20th is the best edition of V:tM ever made, Blood and Smoke has made Requiem a really exciting alternative, they're finally shifting to making products to meet particular needs and to provide a high level of bang for the buck rather than padding things out with excessive verbiage and cranking out product for the sake of it, and in general the World of Darkness are more interesting (to me at least) than they've ever been.
Then you look at Exalted and there's... this.
No shit... As much as I don't like some of the writers of those books at times I have to hand credit when it is due. The world of darkness books are fucking amazing. I just talk to some one who read demon the descent beta. Lets just say I am highly impress with the cover system and the soul pacts. Point is nWoD and cWoD is getting impressive.
Then we have exalted which seems to not be doing much at all. People are getting piss off and I can see why. There is no communication. No showing off any work at all. Come on Holden nobody is going to steal your idea so how about you start showing some of your work. Give us some clue as what is going on other than, "Trust us guys."
Quote from: Nexus;736098Sometimes the Exalted crew gives off a vibe like they're annoyed by their own fanbase. But frankly, that was prevalent with White Wolf overall.
There is definitely a lot of the bad old days of White Wolf in the Exalted crews attitude. Which kinda sucks because it was bad enough then but now its really intolerable.
Quote from: Warthur;736107I have to say, the split between the way Onyx Path is handling Exalted and the cool shit they're bringing out for World of Darkness (both incarnations) is surprising. Vampire 20th is the best edition of V:tM ever made, Blood and Smoke has made Requiem a really exciting alternative, they're finally shifting to making products to meet particular needs and to provide a high level of bang for the buck rather than padding things out with excessive verbiage and cranking out product for the sake of it, and in general the World of Darkness are more interesting (to me at least) than they've ever been.
Then you look at Exalted and there's... this.
The difference between the two is really shocking. It kinda highlights why I'm so frustrated with the whole thing. It seems like they are completely ignoring the lessons that some of the other design groups have learned.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;736131The difference between the two is really shocking. It kinda highlights why I'm so frustrated with the whole thing. It seems like they are completely ignoring the lessons that some of the other design groups have learned.
Or think they're such rock stars and that the fans are so hooked that they can do whatever the Hell they want and still make sales.
Quote from: Nexus;736098Sometimes the Exalted crew gives off a vibe like they're annoyed by their own fanbase. But frankly, that was prevalent with White Wolf overall.
To be fair, I'm annoyed by most of their fanbase.
If they keep it up this (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7h8E9b1CsHgZGU1NGNiZmMtNGIzNy00ZTliLWI0YjQtOWIzMjU2NDg0YWJj/edit?hl=es) might be a better a alternative. Just saying guys. Fate does have a momentum mechanic as you try to earn freebie aspects to use against your foe.
Quote from: Snowman0147;736150If they keep it up this (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7h8E9b1CsHgZGU1NGNiZmMtNGIzNy00ZTliLWI0YjQtOWIzMjU2NDg0YWJj/edit?hl=es) might be a better a alternative. Just saying guys. Fate does have a momentum mechanic as you try to earn freebie aspects to use against your foe.
Unfortunately I don't care for FATE. I could adapt Exalted to a couple of other systems but I'm also incredibly lazy :D
Sometimes Exalted seems to be trying to serve too many masters. It's supposed to be high action wuxia sword and sorcery realistically gritty, heroically shades of gray game of adventure game with a little Master of Magic and Civilization thrown into the mix. At least by the hype.
Then you've got a phonebook of splats that are all equally heroic, antagonistic and important to the bleakly optimistic metaplot that doesn't exist.
Quote from: Nexus;736132Or they're such rock stars and their fans so hooked they can do whatever the Hell they want and still make sales.
I suspect it's the other way around, actually; pandering to the fanbase. They're saying that everything's gonna be all right and that the gangrene thing will sort itself out when they should be reaching for the knife and the bone saw.
Quote from: One Horse Town;736042It's fucking hilarious that they can still fuck things up when they've had free access and control of the biggest general RPG board out there for years.
Jesus, half the staff at RPGnet are, or were, WW staffers and writers.
It's free gravy and they still manage to shit in it.
Why does a hobby that's mostly about communication seem to attract so many people that are so bad at communication...
Because the hobby used to cater to people that just played at home and had fun. It also catered to people who were not so popular in school among other students which hey thank you Tom Hanks. That Monster and Mazes really help share what the hobby was really all about.
Okay sarcasm out of the way let me go forward. Dealing with a massive amount of people and forming good public reputation wasn't even part of that deal when the hobby started. Though you would think Holden and gang would had gotten the clue they needed some one who is good with PR. This is largely their fuck up and I am surprise Onyx Path hadn't done something about it yet.
To be fair, there's also the long-running nastiness with John Morke's medical situation and making alarming statements about 3E being his epitaph, which isn't exactly easy to deal with even if you are a PR wizard.
Though I do think they need to relieve him of his responsibilities to the project so he can see to his own well-being. So far as I can tell, the Exalted fans generally don't actually want him to die so that the book can live.
Quote from: Snowman0147;736213Because the hobby used to cater to people that just played at home and had fun. It also catered to people who were not so popular in school among other students which hey thank you Tom Hanks. That Monster and Mazes really help share what the hobby was really all about.
Okay sarcasm out of the way let me go forward. Dealing with a massive amount of people and forming good public reputation wasn't even part of that deal when the hobby started. Though you would think Holden and gang would had gotten the clue they needed some one who is good with PR. This is largely their fuck up and I am surprise Onyx Path hadn't done something about it yet.
I'm kinda surprised about that too. I think the first thing I would say after the whole debacle with the previews is. "We are hiring someone to talk to the public for you. They will look over everything you release. None of you are to talk to the public anymore."
Quote from: Warthur;736258To be fair, there's also the long-running nastiness with John Morke's medical situation and making alarming statements about 3E being his epitaph, which isn't exactly easy to deal with even if you are a PR wizard.
Though I do think they need to relieve him of his responsibilities to the project so he can see to his own well-being. So far as I can tell, the Exalted fans generally don't actually want him to die so that the book can live.
Yeah the whole situation is weird and very distasteful.
Ok, to be fair Stephen has stepped in and started to answer questions in the thread.
Amusingly, with Exalted, the RPGnet mods also risk being hoisted by their own Social Justice Warrior petard.
That'll learn 'em.
Quote from: One Horse Town;736302Amusingly, with Exalted, the RPGnet mods also risk being hoisted by their own Social Justice Warrior petard.
That'll learn 'em.
As if.
Quote from: Warthur;736107I have to say, the split between the way Onyx Path is handling Exalted and the cool shit they're bringing out for World of Darkness (both incarnations) is surprising. Vampire 20th is the best edition of V:tM ever made, Blood and Smoke has made Requiem a really exciting alternative, they're finally shifting to making products to meet particular needs and to provide a high level of bang for the buck rather than padding things out with excessive verbiage and cranking out product for the sake of it, and in general the World of Darkness are more interesting (to me at least) than they've ever been.
Then you look at Exalted and there's... this.
To +1 this, the Mage 20 Kickstarter looks like it's going to be one of the best handled OP projects yet. Phil Brucato wrote the entire manuscript (and demonstrated this on Facebook) before they took a red cent of any of the cash. He's also been exceedingly nice and accessible during the whole thing - as opposed to the Ex 3 Devstaff who have been generally hostile towards anyone who might question them.
Also, Ex 3 and the entire Exalted game line is pudding proof why rules matter. This whole idea of GMs just winging it can work fine for some other games, but the need for a well designed rules set is achingly clear in Exalted.
In all fairness, part of the problem with "Ask a Developer" thread is that the fans won't shut up.
You don't even need those kind of threads. Just show your work and show people what you are doing. If people get reminders here and there that the game is alive and being built you wouldn't have this nightmare.
Quote from: One Horse Town;736302Amusingly, with Exalted, the RPGnet mods also risk being hoisted by their own Social Justice Warrior petard.
That'll learn 'em.
We covered that up thread, buddy.
Quote from: Nexus;736397In all fairness, part of the problem with "Ask a Developer" thread is that the fans won't shut up.
That's always been the case.
Hell they were still having Ex2 hate threads after the Ex3 kickstarter.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;736467We covered that up thread, buddy.
and i'm covering it again, chap.
Quote from: One Horse Town;736474and i'm covering it again, chap.
Well, to be fair, it hasn't stopped being funny yet.
I feel like I might be reading too much into one of hatewhee's original posts but it seems like they're giving in to fanon and running with "Everyone in Creation is bisexual unless its stated otherwise" thing.
Quote from: Nexus;736480I feel like I might be reading too much into one of hatewhee's original posts but it seems like they're giving in to fanon and running with "Everyone in Creation is bisexual unless its stated otherwise" thing.
Link?
Nevermind, I found it.
If you are reading to much into it, I think I agree. As for the rest of the post, I don't particularly want sexually charged art, of any type. Hell, I would prefer my elf games of all types to not include sex at all.
Here's the link for anyone else that was curious (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?719650-Never-played-Exalted-Ask-the-Developer&p=17702956#post17702956)
On reading it again, yeah, I think I was too. He seems to be saying about the same thing they've said before on the subject maybe in a slightly clumsy way. It's one of the things they've been consistent about.
And to giver credit were credit is due. Stephen Shepherd has been handling the thread better at this point. It's still a wreck but not a total one.
I am beginning to think that it's actually against rpg.net rules to praise Exalted without taking at least a small potshot at Tolkien, D and D or "Western" fantasy in general though.
People of Creation aren't afraid of naked bodies.
Our target audience, however, is afraid of (pretty) naked bodies, so there will be no cheesecake art.
Quote from: Rincewind1;736576People of Creation aren't afraid of naked bodies.
Our target audience, however, is afraid of (pretty) naked bodies, so there will be no cheesecake art.
"You must be at least THIS pierced and androgynous to appear in Exalted Art."
Considering some naked bodies I seen at 2.0 that won't be too hard. Still bitching about seeing naked bodies in a game book? How boring is your life to complain about that? How pamper are you to get insulted by it?
Quote from: Nexus;736480I feel like I might be reading too much into one of hatewhee's original posts but it seems like they're giving in to fanon and running with "Everyone in Creation is bisexual unless its stated otherwise" thing.
So, basically it's the
Torchwood Roleplaying Game?
jg
Quote from: Snowman0147;736579Considering some naked bodies I seen at 2.0 that won't be too hard. Still bitching about seeing naked bodies in a game book? How boring is your life to complain about that? How pamper are you to get insulted by it?
Given how much AD&D got bowdlerized by the Pat Pulling brigade, this kind of self-censorship from the left is more than a bit ironic.
JG
I am actually liberal and I think those censorship people are stupid. Well maybe not so liberal... Lets just say I am not republican.
Quote from: James Gillen;736590Given how much AD&D got bowdlerized by the Pat Pulling brigade, this kind of self-censorship from the left is more than a bit ironic.
JG
It's the new prudery, same shame, different motivation. Less God, more political correctness. But basically just another excuse to try and control what others can see, say and purchase.
Quote from: Nexus;736568Stephen Shepherd has been handling the thread better at this point. It's still a wreck but not a total one.
Though look at how far he stretches to try and give a positive answer to "is Exalted 3 open to houseruling" (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?719650-Never-played-Exalted-Ask-the-Developer&p=17718548#post17718548) whilst at the same time not flat-out lying about the fact that actually houseruling Exalted is a big job and there's a limit to how easy they can make it.
Quote from: Nexus;736593It's the new prudery, same shame, different motivation. Less God, more political correctness. But basically just another excuse to try and control what others can see, say and purchase.
That entire statement is true. It is the same type of people with a new paint job. This isn't a conservative vs liberal deal. This is pro censorship vs common sense deal. The right use god and the left use political correctness while trying to achieve the same results.
It never cease to amaze me how people still can't figure that one out. Lets just call it what it is. When people want to change Exalted to their expectations, or they are going to get offended by it that is censorship. They want to censor something they don't like despite the fact that something depicts what actually goes on in the setting.
Are there any examples of this nekkid art online? All I am finding is sort of anime style art.
Deviantart.com of course. Just type down Exalted and you will find something.
Quote from: Lynn;736691Are there any examples of this nekkid art online? All I am finding is sort of anime style art.
You might find some pieces under
Kiyo
Ross Campbell
Melissa Uran
under Exalted on deviantart
Quote from: Snowman0147;736667That entire statement is true. It is the same type of people with a new paint job. This isn't a conservative vs liberal deal. This is pro censorship vs common sense deal. The right use god and the left use political correctness while trying to achieve the same results.
Gotta say, I have a lot of time for political correctness and social justice, but not a lot of time for people trying to use them as an argument for censorship. I've always felt that anyone can publish anything they like, but freedom of speech cuts both ways: you can't have the freedom to publish whatever you like on the one hand but at the same time deny your critics the freedom to say whatever they like about your work.
On the other hand, it's important to remember that "censorship" means something very specific and there's a marked tendency to overuse it in internet discussion. Censorship is forbidding someone from publishing something. That's not the same thing as shunning a product because you dislike it, or even urging a boycott, because there's a distinction between saying "This book is terrible and should be banned" and saying "this book is terrible and I advise against buying it". Freedom of speech doesn't come with any guarantee that you'll actually profit from exercising that freedom, and if you offend the market's sensibilities you should expect to take a sales hit - unless, of course, the people you're offending don't actually represent that much of the customer base.
Example in point:
QuoteIt never cease to amaze me how people still can't figure that one out. Lets just call it what it is. When people want to change Exalted to their expectations, or they are going to get offended by it that is censorship. They want to censor something they don't like despite the fact that something depicts what actually goes on in the setting.
Are they actually advocating that Exalted should be banned unless it changes? Or are they saying "I'm not going to be an Exalted customer and intend to recommend people avoid Exalted unless this changes?" Because "I think this would be better if it were different" isn't censorship, it's criticism. Likewise "I find this offensive" isn't censorship, it's criticism. It might not be particularly good criticism, or it might be criticism which uses criteria which aren't compatible with your own tastes, but it's not censorship unless there's a genuine effort to suppress publication.
Knowing those people if they had the power to ban they would. I spoken with quite a few at google plus and they flat out said they would love to ban it. So they are who I am talking about.
So yeah for those the critics let them complain about the setting. I generally believe they are missing the point entirely, but that is just me. Just don't be like the people I had pointed out is all I am asking.
Quote from: Nexus;736706You might find some pieces under
Kiyo
Ross Campbell
Melissa Uran
under Exalted on deviantart
Okay, I looked. I saw some implied sex and boobs of anime type characters. Some of the 2nd Edition stuff was really quite good, but it just looks like fantasy anime / manga to me with a little bit of mythology pixie dust on it.
Quote from: Lynn;736753Okay, I looked. I saw some implied sex and boobs of anime type characters. Some of the 2nd Edition stuff was really quite good, but it just looks like fantasy anime / manga to me with a little bit of mythology pixie dust on it.
That is exalted in a nut shell. It is suppose to be fantasy anime/manga mythology.
Quote from: Lynn;736753Okay, I looked. I saw some implied sex and boobs of anime type characters. Some of the 2nd Edition stuff was really quite good, but it just looks like fantasy anime / manga to me with a little bit of mythology pixie dust on it.
That's really about the extent of it. None of the art in Exalted is what I would call explicit. There's a pretty rare bare breast or backside from time to time along with some revealing clothing but other rpgs have had similar. There were 1st actually had a little more "suggestive" material, IMO. The
fan art, otoh, produced allot of straight up porn.
Sort of sad if that's all there is to it. I didn't look much at 2nd edition, but always thought it would be neat to have a game more like Jack Kirby's New Gods and thought this might fit the bill.
If Exalted characters are at peace with their naked bodies and their sexuality, how come they make all the effort to shave their armpits, legs and other regions?
Quote from: Lynn;736818Sort of sad if that's all there is to it. I didn't look much at 2nd edition, but always thought it would be neat to have a game more like Jack Kirby's New Gods and thought this might fit the bill.
If Exalted characters are at peace with their naked bodies and their sexuality, how come they make all the effort to shave their armpits, legs and other regions?
You have the question wrong - they are at peace because they shaved their armpits, legs, and other regions ;).
Quote from: Snowman0147;736756That is exalted in a nut shell. It is suppose to be fantasy anime/manga mythology.
Its fun to watch them try to downplay that these days. Not sure if it because anime isn't the new hotness right now or they want their game to seem more "sophisticated".
Quote from: Lynn;736818Sort of sad if that's all there is to it. I didn't look much at 2nd edition, but always thought it would be neat to have a game more like Jack Kirby's New Gods and thought this might fit the bill.
If Exalted characters are at peace with their naked bodies and their sexuality, how come they make all the effort to shave their armpits, legs and other regions?
Its no effort at all. Anime takes place in a universe with no body hair. :D
Quote from: Nexus;736884Its fun to watch them try to downplay that these days. Not sure if it because anime isn't the new hotness right now or they want their game to seem more "sophisticated".
It shouldn't be down played at all if you ask me. It should be openly embrace because most RPGs I had seen recently are either Tolken inspired stuff, urban fantasy, or brand new systems that try to do the same thing as DnD without being DnD.
Quote from: Snowman0147;736889It shouldn't be down played at all if you ask me.
The only reason I was ever tempted to play Exalted was because I kept seeing it compared to Final Fantasy and Ninja Scroll.
Has anime really lost it's shine?
Quote from: Nexus;736884Its fun to watch them try to downplay that these days. Not sure if it because anime isn't the new hotness right now or they want their game to seem more "sophisticated".
When Exalted came out, "anime" was a rare inspiration for an RPG to draw upon. So, it was emphasised both in terms of the RPGers reactions to it and later as a selling point.
However, it was only one of four primary inspirations being Mythic Fantasy, Sword and Sorcery, Wuxia and Anime. The disproportionate use of Anime in the later Exalted material and its presentation, coincides with a drop in Exalted's popularity. Though this is primarily due to the drop in the quality of the mechanics, I think this inspiration shift is also partially responsible.
Though Anime is an important inspiration for Exalted, which it uses very well, it was never intended to be the primary inspiration. Anyone who calls Exalted "an Anime" RPG is IME either missing the point of Exalted or dislike Anime and wanting to justify their dislike of Exalted.
Quote from: Simlasa;736893The only reason I was ever tempted to play Exalted was because I kept seeing it compared to Final Fantasy and Ninja Scroll.
Has anime really lost it's shine?
Nope. Anime is still popular but it is no longer the distinctive selling point it once was, mostly thanks to Exalted success in using that as an inspiration. So, all of Exalted's inspirations are now being presented fairly.
FWIW there are RPGs better serving the pure "Anime RPG" market than Exalted these days IMO.
Quote from: Snowman0147;736889It shouldn't be down played at all if you ask me. It should be openly embrace because most RPGs I had seen recently are either Tolken inspired stuff, urban fantasy, or brand new systems that try to do the same thing as DnD without being DnD.
But "non Tolkien inspired stuff" is not limited to Anime. As said, Exalted draws on a wide range of "non Tolkien inspired stuff" such as Mythic Fantasy, Sword & Sorcery and Wuxia. It was this combination that clearly distinguishes Exalted from most of it fantasy RPG competitors.
Quote from: Skywalker;736897Though Anime is an important inspiration for Exalted, which it uses very well, it was never intended to be the primary inspiration. Anyone who calls Exalted "an Anime" RPG is IME either missing the point of Exalted or dislike Anime and wanting to justify their dislike of Exalted.
White Wolf called it an anime fantasy game in
their own ads until fairly recently. The whole "Oh its not THAT anime" thing came up when gamers started to question the game for having anime elements. Then the emphasis shifted "sword and sorcery" and "myth" and " any "Non Western"" Fantasy influence they could think of. It happened some previously, usually when someone that liked Exalted but disliked anime tried to justify liking it but lately its really come the official line and having seen how much the anime aspects were pimped when the game was release I find it funny watching them backpedal now (particularly claims that there is only a "little" anime fantasy influence in Exalted). It's more the same double talk I've come to expect from White Wolf and its spiritual heirs.
Quote from: Snowman0147;736889It shouldn't be down played at all if you ask me. It should be openly embrace because most RPGs I had seen recently are either Tolken inspired stuff, urban fantasy, or brand new systems that try to do the same thing as DnD without being DnD.
Anime visual elements seem to be appearing outside of anime. There are bits of it in a lot of Pathfinder art with the spiked hair, giant sword guy, too cute characters, etc.
I like experimentation as well, but there's a strong association with anime style art with...anime (and manga - I guess I should be calling it manga art since its not animation). And anime, at least the real anime from Japan, has its own tropes that I don't associate with D&D, Traveller, or other classic RPGs.
Quote from: Nexus;736906White Wolf called it an anime fantasy game in their own ads.
As said, it was a big selling point when Exalted first came out as it was not a common inspiration. The lead developer subsequently disclosed all four inspirations (which did include Anime) of Exalted, and these can be seen in the list of inspirations in the corebook as well as the material itself.
Quote from: Skywalker;736911As said, it was a big selling point when Exalted first came out as it was not a common inspiration.
The ads I'm referring to were used as recently as a year ago, at most two. This isn't about when it first came out over a decade ago. They'll pimp Exalted as anything they think will sell. Which is fine as policy but don't act high and mighty about it.
Quote from: Nexus;736917The ads I'm referring to were used as recently as a year ago, at most two. This isn't about when it first came out over a decade ago. They'll pimp Exalted as anything they think will sell. Which is fine as policy but don't act high and mighty about it.
I agree that WW will pimp Exalted as anything they think will sell and that they used anime as a selling point for the RPG. None of that contradicts the point I made :confused:
Quote from: Skywalker;736921I agree that WW will pimp Exalted as anything they think will sell and that they used anime as a selling point for the RPG. None of that contradicts the point I made :confused:
I'm not entirely sure what about you're trying to make. I'm talking about how they're trying to downplay the idea that its an anime game now when very recently they were pimping it as an anime game. You seem to be saying that this changed over the course of years. I saw it change over the course of weeks. Very recent ads were calling it "an anime fantasy game" so the denials come across as disingenuous to say the least. It rings very similar to how Aberrant supposedly wasn't a "superhero" game because superheroes were silly. It just had people with superpowers with code names and costumes (excuse me... "Signature Clothing") fighting various plots to take over the world and commit various crimes. Nothing like a superhero game. :)
Quote from: Nexus;736929I'm not entirely sure what about you're trying to make. I'm talking about how they're trying to downplay the idea that its an anime game now when very recently they were pimping it as an anime game. You seem to be saying that this changed over the course of years. I saw it change over the course of weeks. Very recent ads were calling it "an anime fantasy game" so the denials come across as disingenuous to say the least.
Sorry, I was responding more to the seeming building comment that Exalted is, and should be, an Anime RPG. I didn't mean to argue against your specific observation about a change in the advertising in that last few weeks.
To be honest, I wasn't aware that WW had done any advertising for Exalted in the last two years given its been in development hell for that time. Then again I have also stopped following the most of the KS updates and any threads on RPGnet :D
Quote from: Skywalker;736930Sorry, I was responding more to the seeming building comment that Exalted is, and should be, an Anime RPG. I didn't mean to argue against your specific observation about a change in the advertising in that last few weeks.
To be honest, I wasn't aware that WW had done any advertising for Exalted in the last two years given its been in development hell for that time. Then again I have also stopped following the most of the KS updates and any threads on RPGnet :D
I don't have a stance of whether is "should" be an anime rpg or not. But the denials and various degree of scoff and insult I've seen from the developers recently at the very idea that anyone could think that it was or could be one given its presentation history strikes me as obnoxious posturing at best. Again, like Aberrant. But that attitude is consistent with how apparently Exalted can't be praised without crapping on something else.
Quote from: Nexus;736906White Wolf called it an anime fantasy game in their own ads until fairly recently. The whole "Oh its not THAT anime" thing came up when gamers started to question the game for having anime elements. Then the emphasis shifted "sword and sorcery" and "myth" and " any "Non Western"" Fantasy influence they could think of. It happened some previously, usually when someone that liked Exalted but disliked anime tried to justify liking it but lately its really come the official line and having seen how much the anime aspects were pimped when the game was release I find it funny watching them backpedal now (particularly claims that there is only a "little" anime fantasy influence in Exalted). It's more the same double talk I've come to expect from White Wolf and its spiritual heirs.
Quote from: Nexus;736929I'm not entirely sure what about you're trying to make. I'm talking about how they're trying to downplay the idea that its an anime game now when very recently they were pimping it as an anime game. You seem to be saying that this changed over the course of years. I saw it change over the course of weeks. Very recent ads were calling it "an anime fantasy game" so the denials come across as disingenuous to say the least. It rings very similar to how Aberrant supposedly wasn't a "superhero" game because superheroes were silly. It just had people with superpowers with code names and costumes (excuse me... "Signature Clothing") fighting various plots to take over the world and commit various crimes. Nothing like a superhero game. :)
Yup.
The 'it's not really anime, honest!' crowd remains the most disengenuous and stupid element of the entire Exalted fandom.
Seriously people, give it a fucking rest. You are not fooling goddamn anyone.
EXALTED (tm)3rd Edition: I Can't Believe It's Not Anime!
When I run Exalted it's anime as fuck, and I make it clear to my players that I draw my inspirataion heavily from anime and wu xia. Claiming that Exalted isn't anime? Not only is that disingenuous, it's also stupid. The brain parasites must be devouring the Exalted Dev Team.
To treat anime as if it is a insult word is just stupid. Especially on Exalted which was one of the first rpgs to actually use anime. What is next? Complaining about Star Ship Troopers for using space marines even though the book is perhaps the very first to have space marines. It is just plain stupidity.
Quote from: Snowman0147;737219To treat anime as if it is a insult word is just stupid. Especially on Exalted which was one of the first rpgs to actually use anime. What is next? Complaining about Star Ship Troopers for using space marines even though the book is perhaps the very first to have space marines. It is just plain stupidity.
Somebody already has done that.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;737272Somebody already has done that.
Yeah, isn't there a review floating around where the guy complains about Hienlein's use of that tired trope.
Quote from: Snowman0147;737219To treat anime as if it is a insult word is just stupid. Especially on Exalted which was one of the first rpgs to actually use anime. What is next? Complaining about Star Ship Troopers for using space marines even though the book is perhaps the very first to have space marines. It is just plain stupidity.
I would be interested to see the actual Dev quotes that Nexus is referring to. I suspect that this thread has singlehandedly taken a quote that "Exalted isn't just an anime game" to "Exalted is not an anime game" to "I am insulted at the suggestion that there is anime in Exalted'.
The first is an accurate statement. The other two are just stupid. Not that I put it past the Ex3 Dev time to be stupid, but I would be surprised that they went that far on this one.
No Dev has said "Exalted is not an anime game". They're not that silly. What they have been doing is downplaying the anime fantasy influence and elements more and more as the the genre lost some of its popular appeal (and the mechanics demonstrated more and more trouble handling that high octant level of play same as with the "power levels"). This after years of playing it up previously.
Now anime fantasy has 'little" influence aside from a few of the "visuals" and when the topic is broached in Exalted discussion that Devs come across like its an insult to claim there are strong anime influences, like it denigrating the game. Essentially the same reaction as when it was even suggested the Aberrant was a superhero game. Its same old elitist bullshit WWGS used to do with its "Storytelling game" crap or that laughable "Graduation your game" stuff from a few years back.
Quote from: Nexus;737399What they have been doing is downplaying the anime fantasy influence and elements more and more as the the genre lost some of its popular appeal (and the mechanics demonstrated more and more trouble handling that high octant level of play same as with the "power levels"). This after years of playing it up previously.
Cool. I think your statement here holds the reason behind the recent shift. I agree that its silly to deny the anime influence on Exalted as wears it on its sleeve and it is listed right there is the inspiration section. But the reaction is likely to be stronger to counter the fact that it has been disproportionally played up previously when it was a bigger selling point.
Quote from: Skywalker;737401Cool. I think your statement here holds the reason behind the recent shift. I agree that its silly to deny the anime influence on Exalted as wears it on its sleeve and it is listed right there is the inspiration section. But the reaction is likely to be stronger to counter the fact that it has been disproportionally played up previously when it was a bigger selling point.
I would be more willing to be charitable about if the tone wasn't so condescending towards the notion that, yes, anime fantasy has a major influence on Exalted, to those that like it and didn't come across trying to do some kind of revisionist fast one and play like it was never a major influence (and if you think it was you're foolish). Treat us like adults and just say we're shifting focus or we'd like to emphasis the other inspirations more, something besides condescension and not pander to the fans that like Exalted but have a problem with anime.
Quote from: Nexus;737404I would be more willing to be charitable about if the tone wasn't so condescending towards the notion that, yes, anime fantasy has a major influence on Exalted, to those that like it and didn't come across trying to do some kind of revisionist fast one and play like it was never a major influence (and if you think it was you're foolish).
The attitude of the Devs for 3e lead a lot to be desired and have for as long as they have worked on Exalted material as Ink Monkeys and the Errata. I totally sympathise with you there.
Its a sensitive area both ways though. I have seen a lot of Exalted detractors quickly dismiss the RPG as just an anime RPG, which is inaccurate and equally aggravating IME
I've never understood why Exalted was called an anime style game.
I picked it up back in the day because of all the talk about how "anime" it was. I like anime. I have a whole bookcase ranging from Ah My Goddess to Venus Wars to Macross to Record of Lodoss War to Ninja Scroll and on and on and on. I love console RPGs from Japan. I've spent endless hours with Final Fantasies, Phantasy Stars, Shining Forces, and others. Exalted sounded like just the thing for me.
To my mind the text never supported any anime tropes. The art only ever looked animeish once (the Sword and Savant cover which the entire fanbase of the game threw a shitfit about). It wasn't even a case of style over substance. It was purely a case of propaganda over content.
In fact the only thing I ever really picked up regarding anime from the fanbase and game was an aura of contempt. So, while I'm just spectating in regards to this, having no horse in the race, I'm not surprised in the slightest to hear the people responsible for the new edition are wanting to distance themselves from the game's "anime roots." But those aren't real roots to begin with, just phantoms.
Quote from: Gabriel2;737409I've never understood why Exalted was called an anime style game.
Anime has always been an inspiration of Exalted. However, it was only one of four and didn't dominant the material even in terms of the art when it came out. But anime was initially disproportionately emphasised in the marketing as it was both a point of difference from the likes of D&D and also a growing market. This is pretty well detailed in the Making of Exalted book that came with the Exalted 1e LE book if its of interest.
Hand in hand with this was that anime also became a common reason given by Exalted detractors for not liking the RPG, which was odd as it didn't really accurately reflect on the RPG at all.
The amount of anime influence in Exalted did grow with the line. IMO (and seemingly with quite a number of other Exalted fans) this warped the initial balance of inspiration that the line started with that made it such a good RPG.
Given the dissatisfaction with this trend and the fact that anime no longer has the pulling power it once did, I think we are seeing a return to that initial balance of inspiration. That IMO is a very good thing. On saying that, I don't think its good for the Devs to ignore anime or treat it as a bad influence.
Quote from: Gabriel2;737409I've never understood why Exalted was called an anime style game.
Indeed. Far more accurate to call it a twinkie style game.
Quote from: Dodger;737431Indeed. Far more accurate to call it a twinkie style game.
My god it was. If you don't twink your character just right your gonna die. If you don't have the right combination of charms for your combo you can't even call yourself a warrior. If you start out without a perfect defense, then what in the hell is wrong with you?
Quote from: Snowman0147;737484My god it was. If you don't twink your character just right your gonna die. If you don't have the right combination of charms for your combo you can't even call yourself a warrior. If you start out without a perfect defense, then what in the hell is wrong with you?
Suddenly, I don't regret I never bothered reading the 2e's main handbook cover to cover.
Quote from: Nexus;737404I would be more willing to be charitable about if the tone wasn't so condescending towards the notion that, yes, anime fantasy has a major influence on Exalted, to those that like it and didn't come across trying to do some kind of revisionist fast one and play like it was never a major influence (and if you think it was you're foolish). Treat us like adults and just say we're shifting focus or we'd like to emphasis the other inspirations more, something besides condescension and not pander to the fans that like Exalted but have a problem with anime.
I've got the impression in recent years that a big part of what they're trying to do is to push the idea that a lack of interest in anime is not a reason to dislike Exalted. Oddly enough, at times one of the things they're pushing about it as non-anime is the wuxia influences, when I would personally have thought that "people not interested in anime" and "people not interested in wuxia" are going to be sets with a lot of overlap.
Quote from: Rincewind1;737485Suddenly, I don't regret I never bothered reading the 2e's main handbook cover to cover.
Mind you I never read 1.0, but my god I read 2.0. It might as well call itself Exalted: The Dick Wavers by what I seen from the players. Which is why I tend to stick with Scion.
Quote from: Snowman0147;737484My god it was. If you don't twink your character just right your gonna die. If you don't have the right combination of charms for your combo you can't even call yourself a warrior. If you start out without a perfect defense, then what in the hell is wrong with you?
The worst part was that you could be one the receiving end of a TPK, by accident.
Daughter of Nexus featured an Abyssal that would butcher it's way through a full circle if you didn't optimize the shit out of the party.
It's meant for average builds.
Exalted Play tester Q and A thread (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/124672-ask-a-playtester)
Warning, its not terribly informative.
Quote from: Nexus;746914Exalted Play tester Q and A thread (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/124672-ask-a-playtester)
Warning, its not terribly informative.
Hardly surprising.
JG
Quote from: Nexus;746914Exalted Play tester Q and A thread (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/124672-ask-a-playtester)
Warning, its not terribly informative.
NDA's, man.
When it's actually available, there'll be plenty of information I'm sure, but there's no point in getting people who didn't kickstart it hyped about it until then.
I really don't get it. What's the point in having playtesters "answer" questions when they can't actually answer any under the NDA?
It's like bad marketing of the 1990s; it wasn't terribly effective then, it's unforgivable now.
Quote from: Kiero;747070I really don't get it. What's the point in having playtesters "answer" questions when they can't actually answer any under the NDA?
It's like bad marketing of the 1990s; it wasn't terribly effective then, it's unforgivable now.
It's not
for us. It's for people who are already excited, and just want to be told "yes, it's still awesome, you should keep on being excited".
Quote from: Ladybird;747043NDA's, man.
When it's actually available, there'll be plenty of information I'm sure, but there's no point in getting people who didn't kickstart it hyped about it until then.
yeah but this "I know a secret, its awesome but I won't tell!" bullshit is getting old. It IS a hype machine, just an annoying one. You get threads like the current sycophantic praise on the TBP with people kow towing about something they really haven't seen. I'm not even sure -why- they're being so secretive about it.
And, AIR, the Kickstarter was gravy. There was going to be a 3rd Edition regardless, the kick starter was for various extras so its not like the current developers dragged the game back from the edge of oblivion either. I guess if the KS failed miserably the 3rd edition might have been canceled but it wasn't due to developers. It was the people that ponied up their money.
The "Q and A" thread is just a play tester gloating basically and getting some geek cred which is going to happen, but the actual developers haven't been much better as far as customer relations go, meeting honest and fair questions with secrecy even some overt hostility and condescension (which they don't get called on...)
Maybe I'm missing something, but on the list of projects that would need an NDA, an RPG is not even on the list. Seems pretty ridiculous and pointless.
Quote from: JamesV;747118Maybe I'm missing something, but on the list of projects that would need an NDA, an RPG is not even on the list. Seems pretty ridiculous and pointless.
I can understand wanting to hold back some things, the majority of them really to maintain some suspense and give people a reason to buy the final product. But the degree seems over the top with Ex3rd. And they're given out allot of "fluff" which frankly is easier to use without getting the rule book. Just take it and convert it to the system of your choice. The mechanics seem like less of an issue.
Quote from: Nexus;746914Exalted Play tester Q and A thread (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/124672-ask-a-playtester)
Warning, its not terribly informative.
No, it really isn't. I read over it and I have to say its like looking at a magic 8ball. Actually the 8ball may be more helpful.
Quote from: James Gillen;747037Hardly surprising.
JG
Not In the least.
Quote from: Kiero;747070I really don't get it. What's the point in having playtesters "answer" questions when they can't actually answer any under the NDA?
It's like bad marketing of the 1990s; it wasn't terribly effective then, it's unforgivable now.
Well I've messaged Rob and tried to talk to other about all this. Basically I think the developers think this is perfectly acceptable and normal. I really do think that they believe this is "marketing" the game. It's not marketing is where you give people information. Its just the information you want them to have, instead of nothing.
Yeah, the whole thing is a cluster fuck. I can't figure out if the developers know its a cluster fuck and don't want to deal with it. Or if they are under the delusion that its all, Ok.
Lets not get me started on the comic or the current thread over on rpg.net.
Quote from: Ladybird;747078It's not for us. It's for people who are already excited, and just want to be told "yes, it's still awesome, you should keep on being excited".
That's going to work for the really hardcore fans. But those are sales they pretty much had from the jump. IME, its starting to piss off less enthusiastic fans and people worried about getting burned again which would I'd think would be the market base they'd want to court.
Quote from: Nexus;747169That's going to work for the really hardcore fans. But those are sales they pretty much had from the jump. IME, its starting to piss off less enthusiastic fans and people worried about getting burned again which would I'd think would be the market base they'd want to court.
I was very excited at first. But the "marketing" strategy, the delays, and lack of information over all has slowly but steadily pushed me into the "meh" category. It's just I'm not sure there will be a game every finished at this rate. I'm not sure it will be a game I want when it is finished.
After all the fact its taken them 7 months longer than expected doesn't exactly suggest that it will be a terribly accessible game. It suggests its going to be a overly complex fucking nightmare.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;747170I was very excited at first. But the "marketing" strategy, the delays, and lack of information over all has slowly but steadily pushed me into the "meh" category. It's just I'm not sure there will be a game every finished at this rate. I'm not sure it will be a game I want when it is finished.
After all the fact its taken them 7 months longer than expected doesn't exactly suggest that it will be a terribly accessible game. It suggests its going to be a overly complex fucking nightmare.
7 Months? Damn, I hadn't been keeping much track. I didn't know things had been that delayed.
I can understand. I didn't have much of enthusiasm (the fluff changes released so far really left me cold but I was hoping for solid mechanics I could use) but the current marketing approach is off putting.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;747166No, it really isn't. I read over it and I have to say its like looking at a magic 8ball. Actually the 8ball may be more helpful.
It's actually worse than useless. They can't actually answer, well, anything, apparently accept to say "its awesome, you'll love it, trust us!" the same tune that's been going for what, a year now?
Quote from: Nexus;747117yeah but this "I know a secret, its awesome but I won't tell!" bullshit is getting old. It IS a hype machine, just an annoying one. You get threads like the current sycophantic praise on the TBP with people kow towing about something they really haven't seen.
I agree with you on this, actually. Develop your damn game, develop it in secret, just don't keep telling us how you are DEVELOPING YOUR GAME IN SECRET.
QuoteI'm not even sure -why- they're being so secretive about it.
Because of how poorly roleplayers react to excerpts of information about NEW new editions of games, when it's divorced of context from the rest of the game. Look at all the arguments about D&D5 at the moment, and people have been playing that for two years already.
Quote from: Ladybird;747185Because of how poorly roleplayers react to excerpts of information about NEW new editions of games, when it's divorced of context from the rest of the game. Look at all the arguments about D&D5 at the moment, and people have been playing that for two years already.
That is a fair point. But I don't think what they're doing is effective either. It like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, hyping without revealing. There's also a not insignificant chance it could backfire. To much, too little information could lead some unrealistic expectations (There are some already, IMO) so when the book drops, the shit hitting fan they were trying to avoid happens any way and worse. As you say, if you're going to develop the game quietly, do so but this teasing, "Blindly Praise us!" and non informative hype threads are annoying.
Quote from: Nexus;7471717 Months? Damn, I hadn't been keeping much track. I didn't know things had been that delayed.
I can understand. I didn't have much of enthusiasm (the fluff changes released so far really left me cold but I was hoping for solid mechanics I could use) but the current marketing approach is off putting.
Well it was originally planed for October of last year. So technically it should be 6 months I suppose.
Quote from: Nexus;747175It's actually worse than useless. They can't actually answer, well, anything, apparently accept to say "its awesome, you'll love it, trust us!" the same tune that's been going for what, a year now?
Actually, it did say something useful. The person who posted said that they didn't understand the system when they first read over it. I find that hardly a ringing endorsement or something that makes me feel optimistic. The post in question is #5. :P
Quote from: SuddenThunderThe first time I came in contact with the combat rules was me and Death at a burger place, off the cuff conversation without any documents. I didn't understand at all.
Two hours later, with some dice rolling behind me I felt more confident about it.
Quote from: SuddenThunderIn terms of accessibility I'd say it's about the same as it's ever been. 2nd Edition wasn't much different from 1st in that regard and the reason for that is that a lot of the complexity in character creation comes from the wide array of Charms available. I'm not spoiling anything when I say 3rd edition is still going to have a lot of Charms. In terms of variability it's been great. We've been able to make a lot of characters from different sources that we felt accurately reflected the things we were looking for.
Yeah this is post 16 and I have to say if they are trying to make me excited... they are failing.
Quote from: Nexus;7471717 Months? Damn, I hadn't been keeping much track. I didn't know things had been that delayed.
I can understand. I didn't have much of enthusiasm (the fluff changes released so far really left me cold but I was hoping for solid mechanics I could use) but the current marketing approach is off putting.
Hasn't one of the main developers been gravely ill of late and posting "maybe I am going to die and Exalted will be my tombstone"-type stuff? That'll put a delay on any development process.
Quote from: Warthur;747199Hasn't one of the main developers been gravely ill of late and posting "maybe I am going to die and Exalted will be my tombstone"-type stuff? That'll put a delay on any development process.
He's better now. He had a huge THING growing on his neck, but it is getting smaller and he can rotate his head again.
He should had fucking quit and focus on recovery. Seriously anyone who puts his life in line over a role playing game is a fucking idiot. I don't care if I have to wait even longer for game because a writer had to quit. Real life before gaming people.
Quote from: SuddenThunder3rd edition is still going to have a lot of Charms.
So... Even twinkier?
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;747188Well it was originally planed for October of last year. So technically it should be 6 months I suppose.
The original date was December of 2012.
I fell off the Exalted bandwagon sometime last year. I remember being really excited for first edition(even bought both the limited edition and normal core book) and was doubly excited when 2nd edition was announced. Now the only time I notice 3rd edition is when these threads pop up or I get a backer's update. meh
Quote from: Nexus;747175It's actually worse than useless. They can't actually answer, well, anything, apparently accept to say "its awesome, you'll love it, trust us!" the same tune that's been going for what, a year now?
So...every Palladium Press Release, ever? :p
Quote from: Dodger;747261So... Even twinkier?
Yeah I thought the whole point of third edition was to streamlined the game to make it easier to play. Just what in the hell are they doing.
Quote from: Starglyte;747277The original date was December of 2012.
I fell off the Exalted bandwagon sometime last year. I remember being really excited for first edition(even bought both the limited edition and normal core book) and was doubly excited when 2nd edition was announced. Now the only time I notice 3rd edition is when these threads pop up or I get a backer's update. meh
I'm really only counting from the Kickstarter's stated release date. :)
Quote from: Warthur;747199Hasn't one of the main developers been gravely ill of late and posting "maybe I am going to die and Exalted will be my tombstone"-type stuff? That'll put a delay on any development process.
I thought that was a relatively recent development?
Quote from: Axiomatic;747215He's better now. He had a huge THING growing on his neck, but it is getting smaller and he can rotate his head again.
Well, that's good to hear. I don't bear the man any personal ill will. Hopefully, he'll have a swift recovery.
Quote from: Snowman0147;747285Yeah I thought the whole point of third edition was to streamlined the game to make it easier to play. Just what in the hell are they doing.
I'm a bit puzzled by all the talk of complexity too. I thought simplification was one of the big goals for 3rd. It doesn't matter so much for me. I'm good with complicated system IF they work as promised. But I suspect more than a few fans are going to be disappointed if its as complex as it sounds.
On a different note, there was one thing mentioned in the Q and A thread. "Momentum" can be used to fuel charms. I hadn't heard that before. I am curious who that will work with Essence and does that mean that like Essence, momentum is an in setting concept?
Looking at the Scroll of Errata, which the Ex3 developers were instrumental to, I would expect the system in Ex3 to be more streamlined but not simpler. In fact, I suspect that there will be even more mechanical focus in 3e than with previous editions with an expectation that any mechanic found therein is used exactly as stated. In comparison, swathes of Ex2 mechanics sucked, but could be promptly ignored.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;747170After all the fact its taken them 7 months longer than expected doesn't exactly suggest that it will be a terribly accessible game. It suggests its going to be a overly complex fucking nightmare.
This being Exalted, that may be a selling point to some people.
JG
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;732814Reasons not to back kickstarters. It might work for some, but damned if I am throwing money at things like that.
You've obviously never dealt with FFG at their... er... best.
Quote from: James Gillen;747330This being Exalted, that may be a selling point to some people.
JG
Ugh, I fear you maybe right.
While interesting, this Momentum thing seems like a bitch kitty to keep track of. Especially since you have: Essence, Willpower, etc to track per character and for NPCs and it sounds like it changes allot during combat. Hopefully its' not as difficult as it sounds but the "tick" thing used to lose me so I'm concerned.
QuoteIn theory, sure. However, I suspect there are a lot of elements of this game that are going to be unfriendly to traditional automated dice rollers and other RP programs. This is the downside to the devs playing with weird new mechanics, especially with Charms- there isn't really anything that exists right now that can fully handle all the weird quirks of the system. For example, my group likes to use RPoL, but we've had to mostly refrain from using it for anything besides chat after our ST spent hours trying to figure out macros that could handle the weird shit (I think some people might remember the Sail Charm that was spoiled that let you selectively reroll certain dice results- that's a good reference point for some of the more screwy mechanics involved in 3e's Charms).
That doesn't bode well for me. I don't like Exception based mechanics. That was a stumbling block in Exalted for our group. Almost every charm was its own little packet of rules to memorize. One thing 2ed improved on somewhat was more standardization in Charms, but apparently more people found that boring. I hope 3rd hasn't made the charms even more diverse and more difficult to memorize.
Quote from: Nexus;747365That doesn't bode well for me. I don't like Exception based mechanics. That was a stumbling block in Exalted for our group. Almost every charm was its own little packet of rules to memorize. One thing 2ed improved on somewhat was more standardization in Charms, but apparently more people found that boring. I hope 3rd hasn't made the charms even more diverse and more difficult to memorize.
I think exception-based mechanics are bad design; they needlessly drive up complexity just because some people think it "feels" nice.
Quote from: Kiero;747375I think exception-based mechanics are bad design; they needlessly drive up complexity just because some people think it "feels" nice.
Agreed. But the objection to using a more effects based rule set was pretty strong whenever it came up so, here we are. I feel that trying to balance dozens of different little rules packets and how they interacted across years of time and several different writers (a few of which seemed to have totally different ideas of balance and the intent behind the rules) contributed a great deal to the mechanical train wrecks in the earlier editions. I'm willing to see if the developers can pull it off this time but, OTOH, I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: Snowman0147;747228He should had fucking quit and focus on recovery. Seriously anyone who puts his life in line over a role playing game is a fucking idiot. I don't care if I have to wait even longer for game because a writer had to quit. Real life before gaming people.
He couldn't afford to go to the doctor and basically resigned himself to dying. Yes, he was a bit insane. People eventually managed to convince him to go anyway and he got enough money from the internet to, you know, afford medicine.
America has an insane healthcare system.
Quote from: Axiomatic;747379He couldn't afford to go to the doctor and basically resigned himself to dying. Yes, he was a bit insane. People eventually managed to convince him to go anyway and he got enough money from the internet to, you know, afford medicine.
America has an insane healthcare system.
Not insane. It does exactly what it's meant to do: cull the masses that can no longer justify their existence, through the mechanism of forbidding medical care to those unable to pay for access to it. It's a system mean to keep those who are intended to be human resources, and nothing more, in line as well as under budget.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;732805I mean if your contractor did that you would flip the fuck out.
Unfortunately, contractors do this all the time-and people do flip the fuck out.
In regards to Kickstarter projects, being late seems to be the norm. Glad you feel better and welcome to the boards.
http://smallbusinessinfomation.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/most-kickstarter-projects-fail-to-deliver-on-time/
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;747383Not insane. It does exactly what it's meant to do: cull the masses that can no longer justify their existence, through the mechanism of forbidding medical care to those unable to pay for access to it. It's a system mean to keep those who are intended to be human resources, and nothing more, in line as well as under budget.
Well, thank god you have that instead of Death Panels.
Anyway, if you're interested in more, here is the relevant post:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?707989-Exalted-3e-developer-seeks-help-with-medical-bills&p=17835580#post17835580 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?707989-Exalted-3e-developer-seeks-help-with-medical-bills&p=17835580#post17835580)
Quote from: Starglyte;747277The original date was December of 2012.
It's funny that the difference between Ex3 and say, Far West, at least for me, is that I've actually seen rule excerpts for Far West.
Quote from: Axiomatic;747379He couldn't afford to go to the doctor and basically resigned himself to dying. Yes, he was a bit insane. People eventually managed to convince him to go anyway and he got enough money from the internet to, you know, afford medicine.
America has an insane healthcare system.
I really can't help but notice that if Onyx Path actually hired people instead of keeping them as freelancers to save money, he would have had some kind of insurance out of it.
Now now, I understand that the times are tough, and they don't have a lot of money, and that many companies do that, yada yada.
But, you know. Not ZERO blame.
Quote from: Axiomatic;747379He couldn't afford to go to the doctor and basically resigned himself to dying. Yes, he was a bit insane. People eventually managed to convince him to go anyway and he got enough money from the internet to, you know, afford medicine.
America has an insane healthcare system.
Well, on the other hand, it was the inspiration for
Breaking Bad.JG
Quote from: J.L. Duncan;747393Unfortunately, contractors do this all the time-and people do flip the fuck out.
In regards to Kickstarter projects, being late seems to be the norm. Glad you feel better and welcome to the boards.
http://smallbusinessinfomation.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/most-kickstarter-projects-fail-to-deliver-on-time/
Yeah, but most people don't go "I'm sure the contractor will grace us with the thing we paid for at some point even if they wont contact us in any meaningful way!" Like the fans seem to be doing with the Kickstarter. :-P
Quote from: vytzka;747706I really can't help but notice that if Onyx Path actually hired people instead of keeping them as freelancers to save money, he would have had some kind of insurance out of it.
Now now, I understand that the times are tough, and they don't have a lot of money, and that many companies do that, yada yada.
But, you know. Not ZERO blame.
Well my other thought is... Couldn't he apply for healthcare and subsidies under the ACA? Depending on the state he maybe covered by expanded Medicaid. I mean if you have a serious medical issue maybe you should be investigating your options. But maybe I'm being too harsh.
Quote from: vytzka;747706I really can't help but notice that if Onyx Path actually hired people instead of keeping them as freelancers to save money, he would have had some kind of insurance out of it.
Now now, I understand that the times are tough, and they don't have a lot of money, and that many companies do that, yada yada.
But, you know. Not ZERO blame.
Quoted for truth. Getting really sick and tired of people sucking up to Onyx Path. Just because they are redoing old world of darkness again does not mean they are immune to criticism.
These are the same people that sold off White Wolf to CCP in the first place and you seen how well that went. Now they are making bank off former white wolf products they could at least pay the medical bills for the guy.
I've said it before and I will say it again. Considering how open OP was with God Machine and Demon, as well as other WoD products, their refusal or inability to give any sort of concrete information concerning the base mechanics of Ex3 is baffling.
If it's going to be a love/hate-fest regardless, it's only to their benefit to convince either the detractors or those of us on the fence.
Quote from: Snowman0147;747858Just because they are redoing old world of darkness again does not mean they are immune to criticism.
I don't consider regurgitating old shit as something worthy of praise. How much effort is really required to reprint something? It's milking a cash cow, nothing more.
Are they seriously throwing up D and D and Pathfinder's popularity as a 'defense" of Exception Based Mechanics considering how much Exalted's developers and a significant portion of the fanbase liked to shit all over those games for years?
And the blue Hell do popular computer and video games have to do with a successful pen and paper rpg combat/resolution mechanics beyond the vaguest connections? When everything is 100 percent automated the rules can be complicated as Hell since the "GM" will never forget them and thinks of high speed. And since most games can't expanded or altered or at least not by much (its unlikely the Exalted the computer game would have custom charms) it doesn't have to deal with things like unexpected synergies or future writers that don't grasp the interactions.
Quote from: Nexus;748027Are they seriously throwing up D and D and Pathfinder's popularity as a 'defense" of Exception Based Mechanics
1. 3.xFinder is popular, and has y fans
2. 3.xFinder has z exception-based mechanics
3. Ex3 have z^2 exception-based mechanics
4. Ex3 should thus achieve y^2 fans
Simples.
Quote from: Holden1) There has never been an RPG with really immaculate balance that I'm aware of. D&D4 is as close as I can think of anything getting. It's sure as hell not a problem exclusive to exception-based design (hello, Dresden Files). The genre's endemic balance issues tend to be more linked to the expectation that RPG characters are highly customizable.*
2) Sturgeon's law.
*Edit: Well, and the fact that most RPGs are built in the spare time of 3-10 people in 6-12 months, on budgets that one would have to be very generous to call shoestring. This does not help promote extreme rigor, either.
Does this look like "ehhh balance isn't a big deal" to anyone else? Isn't that kinda a weird position to take given the fact the game they are creating a new version of is notorious for having nothing resembling balance and that being a huge problem with the game?
Quote from: Ladybird;7480281. 3.xFinder is popular, and has y fans
2. 3.xFinder has z exception-based mechanics
3. Ex3 have z^2 exception-based mechanics
4. Ex3 should thus achieve y^2 fans
Simples.
This is amazing.
I am in amazement.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;747716Yeah, but most people don't go "I'm sure the contractor will grace us with the thing we paid for at some point even if they wont contact us in any meaningful way!" Like the fans seem to be doing with the Kickstarter. :-P
The Kickstarter Mob!
I guess we'll have to see how the next KS goes-that is if the company does another?-;)
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;748032Does this look like "ehhh balance isn't a big deal" to anyone else? Isn't that kinda a weird position to take given the fact the game they are creating a new version of is notorious for having nothing resembling balance and that being a huge problem with the game?
Looking back at the thread. This statement of mine is likely unfair.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;748032Does this look like "ehhh balance isn't a big deal" to anyone else? Isn't that kinda a weird position to take given the fact the game they are creating a new version of is notorious for having nothing resembling balance and that being a huge problem with the game?
In fairness to Holden, I took it as meaning that perfect balance isn't possible which is a fair statement. On the other hand, I've seen this sort of thing used an excuse to shut down complaints over some painfully broken crap being published in the past. For Exalted for that matter.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;747716Yeah, but most people don't go "I'm sure the contractor will grace us with the thing we paid for at some point even if they wont contact us in any meaningful way!" Like the fans seem to be doing with the Kickstarter. :-P
I think the developers of Exalted 3rd feel they have a rock solid core of people that are going to buy the book the instant it's released, Hell or High Water even it was composed of a collection Rorschach Test images created by the staff blowing their nose and photo copying the results. They'd really have to be very very ingratiating as the fanbase has proven. Sometimes it seems like ruder and more condescending the developers get the more they're treated like rock stars.
Quote from: Axiomatic;747379He couldn't afford to go to the doctor and basically resigned himself to dying. Yes, he was a bit insane. People eventually managed to convince him to go anyway and he got enough money from the internet to, you know, afford medicine.
He should have done an anti-Kickstarter - got people to pay for Exalted 3 to
not be released.
I'd've anti'd up good money for that shit.
Eh, never mind
Quote from: Kiero;748014I don't consider regurgitating old shit as something worthy of praise. How much effort is really required to reprint something? It's milking a cash cow, nothing more.
True, but you won't believe how many people do end up praising them just because they are reprinting the old world of darkness again.
Quote from: Snowman0147;748329True, but you won't believe how many people do end up praising them just because they are reprinting the old world of darkness again.
To be fair, the 20th anniversary editions aren't just straight reprints of the old core books, they strip out all the fiction and cram them to the gills with information from the old core books plus the supplements so you have the cream of the old game line all in one big fat book which is filled cover to cover with useful, gameable material. If anything, I'd say OWoD's better now than it was when it originally came out, not least because it doesn't assume you'll follow the metaplot.
Until those players expect you to follow the meta plot. Some people wanted me to run werewolf which I told them I only have v20 version. They informed that wasn't enough and I have to read a whole series of books just to catch up.
Quote from: Snowman0147;748404Until those players expect you to follow the meta plot. Some people wanted me to run werewolf which I told them I only have v20 version. They informed that wasn't enough and I have to read a whole series of books just to catch up.
...so I hoped you told them to go do one and run it themselves if they wanted that campaign, right? Because that sounds like a player issue, rather than a game issue.
Quote from: Snowman0147;748404Until those players expect you to follow the meta plot. Some people wanted me to run werewolf which I told them I only have v20 version. They informed that wasn't enough and I have to read a whole series of books just to catch up.
Tell me about it....
Some people wanted me to run Forgotten Realms which I told them I only have the Grey Box version. They informed that wasn't enough and I have to read a whole series of books, novels, and edition changes just to catch up.
/humour
Yeah I wish these game companies will just wise up and say those novels and extra things are just legends. They could be canon if you want them to be, but they could also be made up stories which makes them non-canon. That way the guy with the core stuff isn't screwed.
Quote from: Snowman0147;748404Until those players expect you to follow the meta plot. Some people wanted me to run werewolf which I told them I only have v20 version. They informed that wasn't enough and I have to read a whole series of books just to catch up.
I believe the correct response to that request is "Go fuck yourself with a rusty spork."
As Ladybird said: that's a player issue, to be handled through social means.
Quote from: J Arcane;748468I believe the correct response to that request is "Go fuck yourself with a rusty spork."
Come on now J, that's rude and uncalled for. I favor a more thoughtful approach with a dash of humor but also a firm and unmistakable rejection, e.g. "Ha ha, no, fuck you." ;)
Every time I hear one of these stories I thank my lucky stars for my players and also lament for the sorry state of gamerdom, in thrall to IP-building, novel-cranking corporate interests, to the point of placing adherence to canon above game-table-usefulness.
Novels and other tie ins appeal to the near OCD level completist, collection and consistency urges in the Geek psyche. All those stupid alternate, holographic, scratch and sniff, whatever, comic books covers were/are considered so valuable though its the same damn issue between them.
Quote from: Nexus;748511Novels and other tie ins appeal to the near OCD level completist, collection and consistency urges in the Geek psyche.
Or people who just want to get some more of their favorite setting.
Quote from: Ladybird;748543Or people who just want to get some more of their favorite setting.
I don't think it can be denied that we geeks are often completists and pretty compulsive about getting "everything" associated with our particular passion. Hell, I've wasted enough money on pointless things for the feeling of collection It's not a pejorative, but an observation anymore than saying super fans like to collect memorabilia associated with their team. If I was being insulting, I'm insulting myself as well.
Besides, those that just want to read the books for more of their favorite settings probably aren't the canon nazis that insist that they all be included at the table, which is what I thought we were talking about.
Quote from: Nexus;748545If I was being insulting, I'm insulting myself as well.
Besides, those that just want to read the books for more of their favorite settings probably aren't the canon nazis that insist that they all be included at the table, which is what I thought we were talking about.
It's cool. I've read comic books before and then rushed out and bought the entire series in one go, so I can hardly claim to be any better.
I just feel that canon-nazism has nothing to do with the setting material itself; it's a symptom of the person being both obsessive and a twat. Playing in the up-to-date version of a setting is fine, playing something vaguely near and not sweating the details is fine, it's insisting on only playing in that version and NOTHING ELSE IS ACCEPTABLE that's being a twat.
(Of course, authors should try and keep in agreement with the other established details of a setting. But they're being paid to do that, which is a bit different...)
I do wonder if the secrecy will backfire at some point. Playing everything close to their chest does prevent some unwarranted speculation (not all...) but the constant hype on top of that could create some very unrealistic expectations.
Not that the expectations for Exalted have ever been very realistic.
Some recent commentary and playtest material
http://ericminton.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/exalted-3e-playtest-mortal-combat/
http://ericminton.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/exalted-3e-playtest-the-marst-chronicle/
Honestly, it mostly boils down to
"Actually I've played the new Exalted system. I really like [REDACTED] and feel they did a good job on [REDACTED]. I can't wait for the ability to do something cool which [REDACTED] makes easy."
*sigh* comments about oWoD reprints makes me long for a C20 (Changeling). Which reminds me to update my to-buy list with W20. Still no interest in nWoD.
Quote from: Nexus;750397Some recent commentary and playtest material
http://ericminton.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/exalted-3e-playtest-mortal-combat/
http://ericminton.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/exalted-3e-playtest-the-marst-chronicle/
Honestly, it mostly boils down to
"Actually I've played the new Exalted system. I really like [REDACTED] and feel they did a good job on [REDACTED]. I can't wait for the ability to do something cool which [REDACTED] makes easy."
I like the lead to one of the articles:
"I hope that it remains informative nonetheless!"
Consider your hopes dashed, sir. It's pointless to talk about how awesome that
thing was that one time.It's Mad-Libs for suckers.
Actually I've played the new Exalted system. I really like [verb + noun] and feel they did a good job on [verb]. I can't wait for the ability to do something cool which [noun] makes easy.
Quote from: JamesV;750496
Actually I've played the new Exalted system. I really like [verb + noun] and feel they did a good job on [verb]. I can't wait for the ability to do something cool which [noun] makes easy.
"Actually I've played the new Exalted system. I really like
curling doughnuts and feel they did a good job on
spooning. I can't wait for the ability to do something cool which
paper carton makes easy."
Quote from: Nexus;750085I do wonder if the secrecy will backfire at some point. Playing everything close to their chest does prevent some unwarranted speculation (not all...) but the constant hype on top of that could create some very unrealistic expectations.
Not that the expectations for Exalted have ever been very realistic.
Its certainly backfired as far as I'm concerned. I have no plans on buying anything for the line in the near future. Maybe if the game is excellent I maybe more forgiving. But even then there wont be any more Kickstarter backing for these guys.
Honestly, by the time Infernals comes out I maybe interested in buying it. I frankly don't expect any of the current team to be still on the project by then.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;750761Its certainly backfired as far as I'm concerned. I have no plans on buying anything for the line in the near future. Maybe if the game is excellent I maybe more forgiving. But even then there wont be any more Kickstarter backing for these guys.
Honestly, by the time Infernals comes out I maybe interested in buying it. I frankly don't expect any of the current team to be still on the project by then.
They're already talking House rules and Rule 0 fallacy in the rpg.net thread so that really doesn't bode well for the final product. Reading the thread on the OP forum was painful, a little worse than useless. It reminded me why I stopped going there back when it was the WW forums.
I'm really wondering about the quality of the "playtesting" and if its more than we recruit lots of our rabid fans to tell us how much we rock and sniff dismissively at any opinion outside that group. That [redacted] shit is pitiful. Look, we understand you're under some weird NDA but you KNOW that when you start writing. You can write your opinions around it (or not at all since you can't actually answer any questions). That 'censored" crap if just poking people with your "superior" knowledge. For one thing, just saying the name of a mechanic isn't likely to give the game away. Its just jargon.
Quote from: Nexus;751680They're already talking House rules and Rule 0 fallacy in the rpg.net thread so that really doesn't bode well for the final product.
Particularly since the "Houserule it! Rule 0, baby!" fallacy becomes increasingly fallacious with the amount of crunch and the extent to which the bits of crunch interlock with each other, and Exalted is fairly extreme as far as desperately intertwined crunch goes...
Quote from: Nexus;751680They're already talking House rules and Rule 0 fallacy in the rpg.net thread so that really doesn't bode well for the final product. Reading the thread on the OP forum was painful, a little worse than useless. It reminded me why I stopped going there back when it was the WW forums.
No, it really doesn't. When you decide to keep one of the most easily abused and problematic ideas from past version that other branches of your own company have abandoned. It doesn't bode well for the final product.
What's worse after reading it and participating. I don't think Holden understand the complaint.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;751717What's worse after reading it and participating. I don't think Holden understand the complaint.
Unfortunately it looks like this sort of thing is going to be endemic with Onyx Path. The main dude just posted an article on the Onyx Path blog robustly defending his policy of letting the developers just set their own schedule and not enforcing any sort of deadlines and letting them execute their own individual visions, which means that the individual game lines are going to vary wildly in quality and consistency depending on the developers involved.
Quote from: Warthur;751734Unfortunately it looks like this sort of thing is going to be endemic with Onyx Path. The main dude just posted an article on the Onyx Path blog robustly defending his policy of letting the developers just set their own schedule and not enforcing any sort of deadlines and letting them execute their own individual visions, which means that the individual game lines are going to vary wildly in quality and consistency depending on the developers involved.
Lack of consistency and quality control were one of the problems that plagued the earlier editions of s Exalted as the designers and writers changed fairly frequently.
Yeah, I think this is one of those cases where an overreaction to an old problem ends up creating a new one - now if a line has a flaky, unreliable developer the line is going to be perpetually flaky and unreliable because OP aren't willing to yank it and give the job to someone else, which sucks if you are a fan of that line.
Though on the other hand, if your favoured line is catered to by a shit-hot dev who cranks out the awesome at a consistent pace then you're sorted.
Shit... There are times I want to play exalted, but the rules are so mess up it scares me away. It looks like to me that 3rd edition is dead on arrival which is a shame.
Oh well I guess FATE can replace exalted then.
Quote from: Warthur;751734Unfortunately it looks like this sort of thing is going to be endemic with Onyx Path. The main dude just posted an article on the Onyx Path blog robustly defending his policy of letting the developers just set their own schedule and not enforcing any sort of deadlines and letting them execute their own individual visions, which means that the individual game lines are going to vary wildly in quality and consistency depending on the developers involved.
Yep, its amazing to me how much of the old White Wolf problems that Onyx Path has inherited without any particular consideration that maybe there are other ways that things could be done.
It really bothers me that Onyx Path seems to be treating this like a hobby project instead of a business. While at the same time acting like its a business. Its one or the other guys make your choice.
Quote from: Nexus;751738Lack of consistency and quality control were one of the problems that plagued the earlier editions of s Exalted as the designers and writers changed fairly frequently.
Yes, it was. I would be shocked if it isn't a issue with this version eventually.
Quote from: Ithaeur from Exalted" Still no reveal on the new combat rules post 696I'd love it if people waited for the game to be actually publishedt, let alone reading and trying it out, before declaring it broken and inventing fixes.
It would help if they would actually publish something! Or at least give me some sign that it wont be a broken pile of crap. Give me some reason to believe its not going to suck. Then I might think it might not suck.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;751997It would help if they would actually publish something! Or at least give me some sign that it wont be a broken pile of crap. Give me some reason to believe its not going to suck. Then I might think it might not suck.
Exactly. I don't know whats more amazing the amount of blind faith the Ex3 developers seem to expect or the amount they're getting. The Exalted fanbase has always been a little, I guess, zealous, is a good word. But damn...
The thread on the OP forum is a good example. It's either completely fluffy questions ("What the most distance anyone has fallen?"), vague uninformative accolades ("The something of that thing is awesome, trust us!") or prickly snarky responses to people not doing the former two.
But, all in all it seems to be working.
Am I reading the course of the conversation wrong or is it basically "You shouldn't be critical as they (the developers) are doing you a favor, shut up and take (pay) for what you're given." (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?725100-Exalted-Still-no-reveal-on-the-new-combat-rules&p=17933381#post17933381)
coached in the "Well we could be making much more money in some other industry" argument.
Edit: And saying that game designers are not good at writing rules is now a "Personal/Group Attack" regardless of the validity of the complaints.
That's going to put a serious crimp in the review section.
Quote from: Nexus;752030Am I reading the course of the conversation wrong or is it basically "You shouldn't be critical as they (the developers) are doing you a favor, shut up and take (pay) for what you're given." (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?725100-Exalted-Still-no-reveal-on-the-new-combat-rules&p=17933381#post17933381)
coached in the "Well we could be making much more money in some other industry" argument.
Edit: And saying that game designers are not good at writing rules is now a "Personal/Group Attack" regardless of the validity of the complaints.
That's going to put a serious crimp in the review section.
I think that is one of the possible readings. But more and more I don't think that's really it.
The people at Onyx Path see what they do as a hobby. They encourage this view in others. RPG development as a hobby. As such serious mechanical engagement and understanding, deadlines, and professional behavior aren't relevant.
But at the same time they also want to make a profit and be paid for their labor. This makes it a job.
They want it to be a hobby when it is convenient and a job when it is convenient. You cant disagree with them because its a hobby project. You can't expect a lot from them because its a hobby project. But you better damn well pay them because its serious business. This allows them to get all the benefits of both without any of the limitations. I disagree strongly.
Oh my favorite take was this.
"Have you considered this to be a craft instead of work?"
Wow... So much stupid right there people. The two are the same thing dumb ass. I see writers talk about their novels as their great works. Artists refer to their painting as work. I can go on, but lets be honest here. It doesn't matter if you love your work it is still work.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;752032The people at Onyx Path see what they do as a hobby. They encourage this view in others. RPG development as a hobby. As such serious mechanical engagement and understanding, deadlines, and professional behavior aren't relevant.
But at the same time they also want to make a profit and be paid for their labor. This makes it a job.
They want it to be a hobby when it is convenient and a job when it is convenient. You cant disagree with them because its a hobby project. You can't expect a lot from them because its a hobby project. But you better damn well pay them because its serious business. This allows them to get all the benefits of both without any of the limitations. I disagree strongly.
You can't have cake and eat it too is the expression I would use to describe this.
Quote from: Snowman0147;752040Oh my favorite take was this.
"Have you considered this to be a craft instead of work?"
Wow... So much stupid right there people. The two are the same thing dumb ass. I see writers talk about their novels as their great works. Artists refer to their painting as work. I can go on, but lets be honest here. It doesn't matter if you love your work it is still work.
I want to teach at the college level. I put a lot of time and effort into developing my teaching skills. I put a lot of time into research on both subject matter and methods to teach. I put a lot of effort into thinking about how to do it and what I value. Teaching is undoubtedly a craft. It takes a lot of skilled work and time to develop.
But it is still a job. It's something I take money in exchange for.
I love the thing about it not paying well and that making it not a job. Adjunct professors make 2000ish dollars a class a semester. But its still a JOB!
Plumbing is a craft too. It takes tons of skill and a lot of experience to be good at it. But you still pay your plumber.
Professional artists spend a lot of time developing themselves and creating art works but you know what they get paid too. Otherwise they are hobbyist artists or starving artists.
Being paid doesn't make something not a craft. Nor do crafts not necessarily get paid for their work.
Quote from: Snowman0147;752046You can't have cake and eat it too is the expression I would use to describe this.
Exactly, I think that's where the difficulty comes into it.
Some Charm Previews on Onyx Path (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/146982-project-update-62-five-charms-are-the-time)
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;752032The people at Onyx Path
Hold on a second there, please.
The Exalted 3E team isn't the same as the Aeon team, and neither are the same as the Worlds of Darkness team(s). (nWoD and oWoD have a little crossover, though.)
The Exalted team is pretty much the black sheep of Onyx Path. They're the only ones who slam their predecessors (justifiably or not), they're the only ones who regularly get in arguments with their fans (justifiably or not), and the only ones who are this far behind (justifiably or not). I actually think they have some room to be upset with some of the things the Exalted 2E team did, but I also think some of them need a lot more experience in public relations. And I think they love the game and they've been given a Herculean task*, and they couldn't predict hatewheel's medical problems, but I also think they could have handled a lot of things better. (And don't get me started on the XP rules.)
But I know a lot of the World of Darkness writers, mainly the nWoD side, and I can say with absolute certainty that few if any of them see this as a hobby and not a job. They get their shit done on time, they don't trash their predecessors, and other than Matt on a few occasions (about the GMC combat rules), they don't get into arguments with the fans at all. And Matt tends to be polite and professional about it.
You notice how EX3 gets all the discussion and Blood & Smoke doesn't? That's because EX3 has all kinds of controversial decisions that have pissed people off, whereas most people agreed that Blood & Smoke was good at what it tried to do and if they objected, it was generally to what it tried to do rather than the implementation. Plus, Exalted has a history of mechanical failure and grand promises and everyone wants to give it one last try because wouldn't it be awesome if it worked? Whereas World of Darkness, for all the occasional flaws, generally delivers the play experience it promises, even if that wasn't the play experience everyone wanted with vampires.
*Unless they just completely ditch the current d10 system roots and make an entirely new type of game, Exalted's going to kinda have mechanical problems. It's simply not possible to make things work smoothly without killing most of the sacred cows and alienating the fanbase they know are going to buy the game.
(Personally, my future wife and I pledged for EX3 because of the setting, the art, and in my case, because I like the exception-based charms as fodder for ideas, even though I'm sure I won't try the system more than once before throwing my hands up and sighing. I just don't have high hopes for the system. But I don't think there's anything that can be done about it as long as they have that system. My hope is that the system is playable, if not perfect. Sometimes I enjoy running wonky systems as a challenge. If anyone was expecting someone to turn d10 Exalted into what it always promised to be, well, make sure the designers can walk on water before pledging, because that'd be a miracle.)
Two more things.
1) I don't work for Onyx Path, and none of my friends really know Holden or hatewheel, except one who has never said anything negative about them. I'm comparing their public relations and presentation. But it's hard to know what's going on within the Exalted team because their public communications skills are so weak. I _do_ know that they love the game and that they spent a _hell_ of a lot of time on the 2.5 errata. I get the impression that wasn't a paid gig, either, just something they decided to do to make their own products better.
2) Exalted is so hard to do correctly without changing the system assumptions that the delays don't bother me much. It sounds like they had to redo the entire charm system. As someone who has spend a lot of time working on systems myself, I can easily understand how that happens and I'd rather they just get the structure right the first time and not have an edition that needs endless patches. Plus, that stuff that happened to hatewheel was pretty awful and unforeseeable. Shit happens.
EDIT: Got to say, though. That latest charm preview kicks ass, and I'm thinking this might be the first Exalted that doesn't make me want to throw a book across the room.
Well here is my complaint. Why doesn't Onyx Path make the Exalted team do it? People already paid good money to get that book out and it is not fair for them to wait this long. That is just poor business and just plain wrong.
If those guys were working for me they would get fired and I will tell people at kickstarter that the team didn't pull it through. Then I get a new team that can finish the job, or just give the kick starter people their refund.
Quote from: Zeea;752120Hold on a second there, please.
The Exalted 3E team isn't the same as the Aeon team, and neither are the same as the Worlds of Darkness team(s). (nWoD and oWoD have a little crossover, though.)
No, that's totally fair. I used a broad brush and shouldn't have. I should have said the "Exalted team."
My apologies to the other World of Darkness peoples.
Quote from: Zeea;752124Two more things.
I have a ton of sympathy for anyone working on Exalted. Its a hard nut to crack. I'm fine with the Ink Monkeys stuff it wasn't paid work as far as I can tell. It was fan work that happened to be created by developers. They got some consideration and support from me for that work.
But the issue is that they have totally blown that since the Kickstarter. I was very excited and very hopeful. Now I'm just hoping it isn't a total pile of shit. Largely because how they have handled complains and the project.
I don't doubt they are passionate. I don't doubt they want to do well.
Now if they can do it well. I'm less sure about that.
Edit: The new charms look good.
Quote from: Snowman0147;752125Well here is my complaint. Why doesn't Onyx Path make the Exalted team do it? People already paid good money to get that book out and it is not fair for them to wait this long. That is just poor business and just plain wrong.
If those guys were working for me they would get fired and I will tell people at kickstarter that the team didn't pull it through. Then I get a new team that can finish the job, or just give the kick starter people their refund.
I totally understand that. But I'd say it's unrealistic from a business perspective because a refund could probably put Onyx Path out of business, and rushing the product could just result in a pile of suck that nobody wants. Plus, you don't change horses in the middle of a stream, and all that. Switching teams now would probably be impossible because they'd need months just to learn the rules. (And lots of video games that switch teams mid-development end up pretty bad because they just look disjointed and weird.)
The most likely course of action would be to finish the game, then consider hiring different people going forward. But really, delays aren't that bad if the final game is awesome and people are ultimately satisfied, so I don't imagine any major staff shakeups unless the game sucks or bad blood happened behind the scenes. And really, again, that whole thing that happened to hatewheel is a legitimate delaying factor.
I would imagine that future EX3 products will come out pretty fast, though. Both because they did a lot of supplement planning now, and because there's way less things that could delay supplements.
Now, if this thing keeps going and going and going without results, then I'll probably end up joining in with the "just fucking rush it, I'd rather have a game with rough edges than no game" side of things. But it seems like we're getting close.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;752133I have a ton of sympathy for anyone working on Exalted. Its a hard nut to crack. I'm fine with the Ink Monkeys stuff it wasn't paid work as far as I can tell. It was fan work that happened to be created by developers. They got some consideration and support from me for that work.
But the issue is that they have totally blown that since the Kickstarter. I was very excited and very hopeful. Now I'm just hoping it isn't a total pile of shit. Largely because how they have handled complains and the project.
I don't doubt they are passionate. I don't doubt they want to do well.
Now if they can do it well. I'm less sure about that.
Edit: The new charms look good.
Oh, I'm 100% with you here. I'm going to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm nowhere near as hyped as I originally was. And I think there's legitimate room for complaints about the process so far.
Really, more than any public relations mistakes, the clunky-as-hell XP system and Holden's apparent inability to grasp why people don't like it is sorta worrying me. I mean, I can fix a clunky XP system, but I hope there aren't decisions like that everywhere else.
On the other hand, if they do make a sucky game, it just gives me more incentive to write something better. :D Which I'm actually working on now anyway. So, there's that. But I'd be disappointed with the wasted potential and the wasted Kickstarter money (considering we don't have a whole lot to spend on things like that.)
Quote from: Zeea;752135Oh, I'm 100% with you here. I'm going to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm nowhere near as hyped as I originally was. And I think there's legitimate room for complaints about the process so far.
Really, more than any public relations mistakes, the clunky-as-hell XP system and Holden's apparent inability to grasp why people don't like it is sorta worrying me. I mean, I can fix a clunky XP system, but I hope there aren't decisions like that everywhere else.
On the other hand, if they do make a sucky game, it just gives me more incentive to write something better. :D Which I'm actually working on now anyway. So, there's that. But I'd be disappointed with the wasted potential and the wasted Kickstarter money (considering we don't have a whole lot to spend on things like that.)
There are a lot of room for complains, sadly.
Holden's inability to grasp why people find that annoying is worrying. At best it looks like a unexamined assumption as to how the game will work. Moderately critical is that they are including some element of system master as necessary to the "exatled experience." At worst....
I'm still shocked and annoyed at how they reacted to my description of it as a job and the game as a product. Because hell it is. Its not a good paying job but its a fucking job.
The latest discussions just confirm to me that this entire project is people polishing a turd. It was never going to be a good game (mechanically) the moment they decided not to throw the Storyteller system in the bin and start from scratch with something actually designed to do the job properly.
Shit 4th DnD makes a better Exalted game. The guy who did Stars Without Numbers had made a better Exalted game. FATE is a better Exalted game. Hell if I wanted to I can make a better Exalted game.
The real question is why is Exalted still a fucking turd? Even if one designer is deathly ill the other designers are still around. They have no excuse.
Quote from: Snowman0147;752252Shit 4th DnD makes a better Exalted game. The guy who did Stars Without Numbers had made a better Exalted game. FATE is a better Exalted game. Hell if I wanted to I can make a better Exalted game.
The real question is why is Exalted still a fucking turd? Even if one designer is deathly ill the other designers are still around. They have no excuse.
1. It's a hypercrunchy system, it's one of the games with the most "moving parts" of pretty much any game out there except for Magic or other long-running CCG's... but it's built on a game system that was never really designed to "do" mechanics, and without a large enough budget to properly design, test and review everything, and without a top-down plan for the line's development (Apparently 3e has one of those, though? Which is good, but those things take a lot of time to write properly).
2. It lacks a
specific definition of what the game is about. Mythic-level adventuring? Yeah, that's us! Which myths? All of them! Don't like that? Okay, play a regular dude, our system handles that just as well!
Exalted isn't trying to be just one game; it's trying to be ALL OF THE GAMES, ALL AT ONCE! And that's the key for all the hacks, I think; they concentrate on being just one game... so if you like that particular type of Exalted, yay, but it won't do it for you if you like something else. But hey, writing a hack is easy.
But that's the view from someone who has only played Exalted a few times, and wouldn't have the patience for it today.
Quote from: Ladybird;752254Exalted isn't trying to be just one game; it's trying to be ALL OF THE GAMES, ALL AT ONCE
Thank you! I've long thought one of the problems with Exalted is that its trying to serve too many masters at once. And in more than just mechanics. I think that also explains some of the intensity of disputes among the fanbase. Everyone is picking out their favorite aspects and taking it as what the game is "meant" to me or the best thing about it. And it contribute to the setting and, well, crunch bloat" the game has had since the beginning.
Yes, but that is impossible. Even Fantasy Flight doesn't even attempt that with Warhammer 40K. Onyx Path doesn't do that with nWoD with the god machine chronicle books. You can't have a game that caters to everyone's taste. It simply cannot be done.
Quote from: Snowman0147;752260Yes, but that is impossible. Even Fantasy Flight doesn't even attempt that with Warhammer 40K. Onyx Path doesn't do that with nWoD with the god machine chronicle books. You can't have a game that caters to everyone's taste. It simply cannot be done.
Yes, it's been one of the major issues, IMO, since the beginning.
Quote from: Snowman0147;752260Yes, but that is impossible. Even Fantasy Flight doesn't even attempt that with Warhammer 40K. Onyx Path doesn't do that with nWoD with the god machine chronicle books. You can't have a game that caters to everyone's taste. It simply cannot be done.
The usual way of handling it, is to make
multiple games; each of the 40k lines is intended to be it's own game line, same with the WoD's, new Star Wars, the Dungeonses and the Dragonses, and they note that crossovers could be messy and aren't really supported. That way, each game line can devote itself to being one thing.
Quote from: Ladybird;752263The usual way of handling it, is to make multiple games; each of the 40k lines is intended to be it's own game line, same with the WoD's, new Star Wars, the Dungeonses and the Dragonses, and they note that crossovers could be messy and aren't really supported. That way, each game line can devote itself to being one thing.
Exalted could have worked along those lines with all the different splats and groups. Might have avoid some of them constant dick measuring arguments between fans of the different splats or the background inconsistency.
"Polishing a turd" is about the most accurate description of EX3 development I've found. I mean, the system isn't that irredeemable, but the philosophies applied to it probably are.
For example, juggling Essence expenditure for bonus dice? That's pretty much just going to break the system, because that sort of d10 dice pool system has vastly different properties beyond a certain number of dice. Which is something that both Exalted and Aberrant had problems with. Plus, rolling huge numbers of dice is tedious. It seems like they're cutting back dice pools in this, though, which would be great.
Overall, you _can_ make an okayish system based on Storyteller, but only if you go out of your way to avoid engaging with the mechanical structure. Which is why some of these non-mechanical charm benefits are infinitely more likely to work than crap like, "you turn X of your dice into successes" and "spend Essence to boost your dice, up to Attribute+Skill or Skill+Speciality depending on splat, etc."
Also, the reliance on little mechanical differences (like the Solar vs. Dragon-Blooded booster caps) really hurt the game. Sure, thematically, it sounds like it makes Solars all about talent, whereas Dragon-Blooded are all about training and specialization to overcome their weaknesses. But in the actual game? A Solar's dice pool doesn't "feel" like it's about talent and a Dragon-Blood's dice pool doesn't 'feel" like it's about training, because stuff that seems neat for a moment in character generation doesn't translate to actual play. Ultimately, I think the human mind is set up to focus on, "both are adding dice so playing them feels the same" and not "the amount of dice they get to add was calculated in this clever thematic way so playing them feels different."
The problem I have with what little we've seen (mostly the charm previews) is that not only haven't learned that Exalted needs less crunch to meet its promises, but also that, in many ways, gaming has moved beyond Exalted (after having learned a great deal from it!).
The "Angle-Tracing Edge" is an example. Lots of words for "you can hit someone in cover, with a penalty if it is full cover". In 2000, that was a cool ability. Now ... it is rather "meh". Not to mention it is misnamed - it should be "Arc-Tracing Edge".
I think that seeing what happens with D&D 5E and Exalted 3E will be very interesting. WotC have found out that the population of optimizing, crunch-heavy gamers (a la 4vengers) is not great, and so have targeted 5E at the medium-crunch level. OPP have decided that crunch heavy *is* the crowd to go after. Now maybe they can pick up disgruntled 4E fans, but I doubt it, because there isn't the tactical skirmish combat aspect in Exalted. "Highly Narrative" combined with "High crunch and system mastery" is not such a great intersection.
I can think of numerous ways to fix Storyteller and make it work for Exalted 3E, including keeping charms intact. So I think it is definitely doable.
Quote from: Kiero;752251The latest discussions just confirm to me that this entire project is people polishing a turd. It was never going to be a good game (mechanically) the moment they decided not to throw the Storyteller system in the bin and start from scratch with something actually designed to do the job properly.
"Polishing a turd" is a good way to put it, IMO. Maybe a little harsh but I haven't seen much that indicates that the 3rd ed system is making any moves in the directions I'd like. But then the "Ink Monkeys" stuff wasn't to my taste anyway and I never thought Storyteller was a good choice for something like Exalted from day 1.
Quote from: Obeeron;752318The problem I have with what little we've seen (mostly the charm previews) is that not only haven't learned that Exalted needs less crunch to meet its promises, but also that, in many ways, gaming has moved beyond Exalted (after having learned a great deal from it!).
Don't dare mention that less crunch might be good for Exalted. One of the most recent threads had a big blow up about that and how anyone that ever hoped for more moderate crunch was damn near insane for thinking that and dead wrong to boot. Despite that each incarnation of the game has gotten more complicated and been a bigger train wreck than that last. And what we've seen of 3rd (admittedly very little) we've seen of 3rd promises more of the same (new things to track, lots of keywords, dozen of new charms, etc).
QuoteThe "Angle-Tracing Edge" is an example. Lots of words for "you can hit someone in cover, with a penalty if it is full cover". In 2000, that was a cool ability. Now ... it is rather "meh". Not to mention it is misnamed - it should be "Arc-Tracing Edge".
I really haven't been that impressed by the Charm reveals. They've seem pretty "meh". Nice tricks but mostly things that other games cover by having high skills and description not dozens of little individual rules exceptions to memorize and juggle not epic powers of demi gods.
QuoteI think that seeing what happens with D&D 5E and Exalted 3E will be very interesting. WotC have found out that the population of optimizing, crunch-heavy gamers (a la 4vengers) is not great, and so have targeted 5E at the medium-crunch level. OPP have decided that crunch heavy *is* the crowd to go after. Now maybe they can pick up disgruntled 4E fans, but I doubt it, because there isn't the tactical skirmish combat aspect in Exalted. "Highly Narrative" combined with "High crunch and system mastery" is not such a great intersection.
.
I'm not really seeing it either and it goes back to serving too many masters. But apparently wanting lighter crunch means you want to turn Exalted into Risus or Wu-shu.
But keeping the "narrative" angle does allow for a ready made excuse when things snarl up. That its not the mechanics but the players are handling the "narrative" wrong, role playing not Roll playing, yadda yadda...
Quote from: Kiero;752251The latest discussions just confirm to me that this entire project is people polishing a turd. It was never going to be a good game (mechanically) the moment they decided not to throw the Storyteller system in the bin and start from scratch with something actually designed to do the job properly.
QFT!
Oh and RPG.net gets really bad with "we are all the same but the mods are same-r"... they ban a member for group-attacking the Devs (unfairly so, imo) and not two pages later Holden more or less insults the whole Exalted fanbase (of which many are members on rpg.net) and nobody blinks an eye. That's messed up.
The attitude of the Ex3e Dev team really starts to annoy me. Too bad Kickstarter does not do refunds (yeah, i backed it...naive little thing that i was... :eek: :o ).
Quote from: Anglachel;752363QFT!
Oh and RPG.net gets really bad with "we are all the same but the mods are same-r"... they ban a member for group-attacking the Devs (unfairly so, imo)
The call that saying "They're bad at game design" is now a "Group Attack" stuff?
Yeah that was bullshit.
Quoteand not two pages later Holden more or less insults the whole Exalted fanbase (of which many are members on rpg.net) and nobody blinks an eye. That's messed up.
Well it certainly doesn't help that some of the Devs are moderators...
Quote from: Obeeron;752318I think that seeing what happens with D&D 5E and Exalted 3E will be very interesting. WotC have found out that the population of optimizing, crunch-heavy gamers (a la 4vengers) is not great, and so have targeted 5E at the medium-crunch level.
I don't think that's a fair comment; 4e isn't really friendly to optimisation (Because the range between optimised and unoptimised characters isn't that big), while the game that "beat" it is very encouraging of optimisation (Pathfinder). Exalted also isn't going for the market leader position, because that's just a money sink, and OP don't have the resources to compete (Even FFG, one of the few companies with the money to compete for the Number 1 RPG title, aren't trying to). The question will be, whether Ex3 will be able to sustain it's own development.
Quote from: Anglachel;752363The attitude of the Ex3e Dev team really starts to annoy me. Too bad Kickstarter does not do refunds (yeah, i backed it...naive little thing that i was... :eek: :o ).
You can ask the creators for a refund, but that's it. Whether or not you'll get it depends on things - the one time I've done it, the creator refunded me - but if you don't ask, the answer will be no.
Of course, be polite but firm, etc.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?730104-Exalted-Is-Third-Edition-EVER-Going-To-Come-Out
Well a new Exalted 3 thread is out. Already the designer and apologists have shown up to talk about how poor they are and how this really just a hobby project (around post 50).
First off are you a abyssal exalted because you certainly pulled some necromancery in this thread?
Joking aside that is six pages of bullshit I just read. There are a few posts that I can sympathize with. Mainly those posters that figured out that they should avoid kickstarter and not support Onyx Path projects. I feel for those few people and fuck those that choose to defend Onyx Path instead of accepting the reality for what it is.
I mean for crying out loud. The guy who did Stars Without Numbers, Other Dust, and other games is only one man. You don't see him fucking up on kickstarter. He should be teaching the exalted team how to handle that.
Yeah I know the world of darkness books are quick in getting done, but the way they are handling exalted is not even funny. It is a shame and the people of Onyx Path should feel bad about it because they did fuck it up. Seriously at this point it might be wise to just ditch it.
Quote from: Snowman0147;764225First off are you a abyssal exalted because you certainly pulled some necromancery in this thread?
Joking aside that is six pages of bullshit I just read. There are a few posts that I can sympathize with. Mainly those posters that figured out that they should avoid kickstarter and not support Onyx Path projects. I feel for those few people and fuck those that choose to defend Onyx Path instead of accepting the reality for what it is.
Exalted 3: Abyssal Bullshit Rationalization Stance
Quote from: Snowman0147;764225First off are you a abyssal exalted because you certainly pulled some necromancery in this thread?
Joking aside that is six pages of bullshit I just read. There are a few posts that I can sympathize with. Mainly those posters that figured out that they should avoid kickstarter and not support Onyx Path projects. I feel for those few people and fuck those that choose to defend Onyx Path instead of accepting the reality for what it is.
I mean for crying out loud. The guy who did Stars Without Numbers, Other Dust, and other games is only one man. You don't see him fucking up on kickstarter. He should be teaching the exalted team how to handle that.
Yeah I know the world of darkness books are quick in getting done, but the way they are handling exalted is not even funny. It is a shame and the people of Onyx Path should feel bad about it because they did fuck it up. Seriously at this point it might be wise to just ditch it.
I see you have figured me out. I'm in fact an Abyssal and this is my beating the horse even after its dead thread. In more seriousness, I just need a place to vent. Since I made this thread to vent and here I am again!
I think its interesting that Rand Brittain complained about Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine also "coming soon" when according to drive thru its been available for purchase since April 6th of this year. After being kickstarted after Exalted was. According to another poster they also got tons of preview materials. Where as the people who have been waiting for Exalted still have jack shit.
Also Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine was apparently written by one person. As far as I can tell.
Quote from: James Gillen;764234Exalted 3: Abyssal Bullshit Rationalization Stance
Pretty much.
Really I can understand people being patient. I cant understand people still being patient with them. But I cant understand people still being patient. Given the glacial rate of development I would be surprised if it comes out before new year.
All I can say at this stage is that I requested a refund for my KS contributions but been summarily ignored so far
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;764240I think its interesting that Rand Brittain complained about Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine also "coming soon" when according to drive thru its been available for purchase since April 6th of this year. After being kickstarted after Exalted was. According to another poster they also got tons of preview materials. Where as the people who have been waiting for Exalted still have jack shit.
That one confused the hell out of me as I was sure Rand was involved in Chuubo in some way. Certainly he's always come across as being "Jenna Moran Fanboy #1", so can't see how it would be out without him knowing.
For me the main takeaway from the Exalted thread was the guy from OPP explaining that they date they put on their website for Ex3 is completely made up and shouldn't be trusted, and that there's a thread in their forum that explains this so why is anyone paying attention to the date on the front page of their website...
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;764218http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?730104-Exalted-Is-Third-Edition-EVER-Going-To-Come-Out
Well a new Exalted 3 thread is out. Already the designer and apologists have shown up to talk about how poor they are and how this really just a hobby project (around post 50).
I would be very curious to know where that seven hundred thousand went.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;764325I would be very curious to know where that seven hundred thousand went.
Maybe the God Machine ate it?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;764325I would be very curious to know where that seven hundred thousand went.
I would rather like to know that too. My honest opinion is that someone made a very healthy profit off the whole thing. Who made that profit though I have no clue. The other option is that they are a horribly badly run company and all that money had disappeared into other projects.
Or they miss calculated the costs of this project which wouldn't surprise me either.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;764517The other option is that they are a horribly badly run company and all that money had disappeared into other projects.
Which is why I said I think the God Machine ate it. I think the money went to world of darkness books once shit went down hill. After all the world of darkness books is their main profit which is really bad for Onyx Path.
Onyx Path only has a license for world of darkness and CCP could very well take it away from them at any moment for any reason. They hadn't even touch the IPs they do own. Scion and Trinity IPs need to be work on if Onyx Path really wants to be a independent company in the long run.
Then again seeing how well they handled Exalted the question is do I really want them to touch scion? From what I seen I really don't. They hadn't work on their three musketeers set in mars game and failed exalted. The only good thing they done are the world of darkness games. So if they tried to do scion would they have some team that does "whatever" and give it the same treatment that exalted is getting? A lot to think about.
The thing that puzzles me is why the KS earned so much and was treated as so important. EX3 was going to happen before was announced. The KS was just to fund a bunch of fancy extras.
In all honesty. Fuck if I know.
Maybe the money was going to be used to pay medical bills? Hell it could be possible that the kickstarter is their main source of revenue for all I know. What I do know is there are a lot of angry people who have a right to be angry towards the people who are have a unfinished product in their hands.
Quote from: Nexus;764648The thing that puzzles me is why the KS earned so much and was treated as so important. EX3 was going to happen before was announced. The KS was just to fund a bunch of fancy extras.
That is the company line. EX3 was going to happen no matter what and the kickstarter really was only to get a bunch of fancy extras.
My personal opinion is this is not factually accurate. I suspect the reality is that without the kickstarter the EX3 project would have been dead in the water at this point. I think it would have been abandoned by now as a failed project, due to delays and such. But the kickstarter has kept the product viable.
I also want to point out that despite being a "luxury product" they also put in a tier for preorders. So that kinda undermines there argument that its really just for the fancy extras.
Without the kickstarter Exalted 3.0 would never happen at all. Onyx Path uses kickstarter to gauge if the game is good enough to even work on. This is just me making a guess. I mean if they were selling books well enough they should be able to hire long term writers with all that kickstarter money. The fact they stick with freelancers might mean the books are not selling that well.
Hell David Hill himself said in Wanton Wicked chat that they increase the price of the books and pdfs because they were not selling a lot. Don't believe me compare their prices at DriveThruRPG. I will provide the links for you.
Mummy (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/111598/Mummy-The-Curse)
God Machine Chronicle (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/113340/World-of-Darkness-The-GodMachine-Chronicle)
Vampire: The Requiem Strix Chronicles
(http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/123898/Blood-and-Smoke-The-Strix-Chronicle)
Demon: The Decent (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/124155/Demon-The-Descent)
The only real changer is the new hunter book, but I think that is due to the fact it is a supplement. If it was a core book I feel like the price would be jack up.
Mortal Remains (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/129193/Hunter-Mortal-Remains)
Our books aren't selling so lets raise prices?
That's Games Workshop levels of bad marketing right there.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;764760Our books aren't selling so lets raise prices?
That's Games Workshop levels of bad marketing right there.
No shit. I am not paying 75 dollars for a core book of a single splat. I can understand if it is like a limited edition book, but this is the common book with unlimited supply. That is fucking wrong. The fact the pdf is over twenty dollars is insane. No reasonably good pdf should ever go past ten dollars. They are trying to screw their customers.
An Exalted 3E playtester leaked pretty much all the current playtest docs as of Mid-June onto /tg/. So far the reception has been pretty positive.
At the very least, it's clear that the game is being worked on, and that a good deal has gone into it already.
I still haven't found the fucking thing.
You'd think it would be everywhere, but all I find is folks talking about it.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;764877I still haven't found the fucking thing.
You'd think it would be everywhere, but all I find is folks talking about it.
Check the OP of those threads?
Quote from: Snowman0147;752252The guy who did Stars Without Numbers had made a better Exalted game...
What might that be? I'd like to have a look at it.
Quote from: Simlasa;764882What might that be? I'd like to have a look at it.
Here you go (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/127180/Scarlet-Heroes).
Quote from: Snowman0147;764820No shit. I am not paying 75 dollars for a core book of a single splat. I can understand if it is like a limited edition book, but this is the common book with unlimited supply. That is fucking wrong. The fact the pdf is over twenty dollars is insane. No reasonably good pdf should ever go past ten dollars. They are trying to screw their customers.
...and if their customers aren't happy, they won't buy it. Nobody is getting screwed here, it's just supply and demand.
But for a book that requires a lot of development (Art, rules), will last it's purchasers a long time, and isn't likely to sell in large quantities, $75 isn't unreasonable. That's how much things cost. Gamers have just been unwilling to adapt their mental price points to the realities of their hobby.
Quote from: Snowman0147;764884Here you go (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/127180/Scarlet-Heroes).
Hmmm... OK, for some reason (the cover) I'd been assuming that was just a Samurai game ala L5R.
Quote from: Simlasa;764887Hmmm... OK, for some reason (the cover) I'd been assuming that was just a Samurai game ala L5R.
Setting wise it is more a complex game than that. Does it have a bit of a eastern flair to it? Of course, but so does Exalted. Just look at the Realm. The red tide in that game setting pretty much replaces chaos. Just add in other elements and your good to go.
If that is not enough the writer put the rules for his other books as well. So you can have a epic hero space game, a true fallout game, and go demigod in the spears of the dawn.
Quote from: Ladybird;764885...and if their customers aren't happy, they won't buy it. Nobody is getting screwed here, it's just supply and demand.
But for a book that requires a lot of development (Art, rules), will last it's purchasers a long time, and isn't likely to sell in large quantities, $75 isn't unreasonable. That's how much things cost. Gamers have just been unwilling to adapt their mental price points to the realities of their hobby.
If this is a war to change consumers and how they purchase things, then it is a losing war. Game makers need to do what the consumers want to stay alive, or buyers won't buy. That is the reality. You do what your customers want, or your product won't be bought.
Quote from: Ladybird;764885...and if their customers aren't happy, they won't buy it. Nobody is getting screwed here, it's just supply and demand.
But for a book that requires a lot of development (Art, rules), will last it's purchasers a long time, and isn't likely to sell in large quantities, $75 isn't unreasonable. That's how much things cost. Gamers have just been unwilling to adapt their mental price points to the realities of their hobby.
Hell, I'm deeply surprised it's not 100 bucks. Funny thing is, I work in the print would these days, and going by basic numbers, printing a hundred copies through a professional printer? Not really that more money intensive than printing a thousand.
And PDFs are actually a rip off at 20 or more dollars, when you take away the cost of paper, ink, binding etc.
This could literally be the next FATAL, and it sell.
Thank you for that post and pointing out that pdfs at 20 dollars is a rip off.
Seriously I am sick and tired of people defending these bullshit business practices. There is a difference between making profit and being a greedy piece of shit. There is serving the customers and then there is trying to exploit your customers. No one should defend the policy and practices of Onyx Path. They are not your friends who happen to be hobbyists. They are a business that must treat their customers better, or eventually lose those customers. Spreading lies and bullshit will not save their business.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;764760Our books aren't selling so lets raise prices?
That's Games Workshop levels of bad marketing right there.
I could almost understand that before the PDF age.
JG
Quote from: Warboss Squee;764893Hell, I'm deeply surprised it's not 100 bucks. Funny thing is, I work in the print would these days, and going by basic numbers, printing a hundred copies through a professional printer? Not really that more money intensive than printing a thousand.
But it's not just the printing. It's the art, the writing, the time spent playtesting and bugfixing; none of which is free. The sales are going to be low, so the price needs to be high to get to a reasonable break-even point.
(Whether or not this was a sensible commercial decision, well, I have my doubts.)
Quote from: Snowman0147;764917Seriously I am sick and tired of people defending these bullshit business practices.
I'm not defending them, I'm disagreeing with you on whether a price point is unreasonable. There's a difference.
If you don't feel the product is worth what people are charging for it,
don't buy it.
I keep hearing about these leaked playtest documents but I can't seem to find them. Does anyone have any idea where they can be found?
Quote from: Ladybird;764956I'm not defending them, I'm disagreeing with you on whether a price point is unreasonable. There's a difference.
If you don't feel the product is worth what people are charging for it, don't buy it.
We're not. And that's the problem, isn't it?
JG
100.00 bucks?!? Wowsa.
Quote from: James Gillen;765101We're not. And that's the problem, isn't it?
JG
Well, economically, yeah. Lower sales means each copy has to carry more of the cost of blah blah blah (We all understand break-even points, right?).
On the other hand, it wasn't you that committed to producing an expensive folly, that was all Onyx Path.
Quote from: Ladybird;764956But it's not just the printing. It's the art, the writing, the time spent playtesting and bugfixing; none of which is free. The sales are going to be low, so the price needs to be high to get to a reasonable break-even point.
(Whether or not this was a sensible commercial decision, well, I have my doubts.)
OP is a small crew, and pay bumbs were included in that glut of a Kickstarter they did. And trust me, pay per word is not that expensive, nor is art, when you can expext the sales they are.
My best out of my ass estimate is we are looking at roughly 5-10 bucks per book, and it's PoD, and the buyer is eating the shipping.
Hell, dvds are product costed at a quarter a disc, and you pay 20 bucks.
This a discussion of some of the material that was leaked on The Roleplay Zone, the actual documents are not there that I know of.
http://www.roleplay.zone/threads/exalted-3e-playtest-leaks-discussion.60770/
Quote from: Warboss Squee;765141My best out of my ass estimate is we are looking at roughly 5-10 bucks per book, and it's PoD, and the buyer is eating the shipping.
Is that black and white, color, or premium?
Quote from: Snowman0147;765224Is that black and white, color, or premium?
Color. Unless they are not getting a per 1000 deal wholesale, which they damn well should. Hell, my people offer discounts per 10,000 and still come ahead, and we're eating the ink and paper costs on top of it. That said, we do newspapers and magazines, but the differences are not the varied.
Well, I take it back, I'm unsure how PoD works money and material wise, but even a limited print run would get them money back if they were even remotely smart about it.
Looks like they didn't learn their lesson(s) and put another sex based charm. The reaction appears to be what you'd expect. Am I a bad person for enjoying massive schadenfreude over this?
Where is this backlash happening? RPG.net seems placid on the subject at the moment.
Quote from: Nexus;765982Looks like they didn't learn their lesson(s) and put another sex based charm.
"The Third Exalted Technique : You never need to come out" ?
The document included a charm which basically made the character such an exquisite lover that their partners were more inclined to have sex with them again and became positively inclined towards the characters so as to be more malleable to their wiles (I imagine that means. Basically a Solar version of Thousand Courtesan Calculations or Celestial Bliss Trick.
Quote from: Warthur;765985Where is this backlash happening? RPG.net seems placid on the subject at the moment.
Yeah, discussion of the leaked material has been put off limits on rpg.net. I've seen a few spots where its come up. This is the biggest I've found so far.
http://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/general-exalted-thread.44/page-50
That should be about where it really gets going, give or take.
750 charms in the playtest? Aren't charms just one type of power?
There's Sorcery and Astrology, Invocations (Artifact powers), IIRC.
I doubt there will be much about Astrology in the corebook since its mostly a Sidereal thing. Rumor has it that playtest document also contains some Non Solar charms that are being tested so the actual number in the final work maybe smaller, perhaps quite a bit smaller.
Quote from: Nexus;766061Yeah, discussion of the leaked material has been put off limits on rpg.net.
Ah, rpg.net: staying relevant and at the cutting edge of RPG discourse by banning discussion of significant news stories.
Quote from: Warthur;766194Ah, rpg.net: staying relevant and at the cutting edge of RPG discourse by banning discussion of significant news stories.
Yeah, the song and dance about why it was all right to discuss other pirated material but not THIS pirated material was interesting.
Quote from: Nexus;766263Yeah, the song and dance about why it was all right to discuss other pirated material but not THIS pirated material was interesting.
Gee wiz, I wonder why. That is the worst crime I level at RPG.net - making me donate to Exalted. I mean sure, it was one dollar, but still.
Quote from: Rincewind1;766264Gee wiz, I wonder why. That is the worst crime I level at RPG.net - making me donate to Exalted. I mean sure, it was one dollar, but still.
"Banned on RPG.net" is the hip thing to put on your cover these days.
JG
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if there were will ardent defenders and apologists tsking any negative reactions if the Exalted Devs posted "Hey, we actually spent that money on hookers and blow, chumps. You'll get it when you get it and like it!" Probably something to do with rpg writing but a stressful labor of love and they need their relaxation time so stop whining.
The reserve of goodwill some people have for that game seems bottomless. And considering some of the past and current issues I'm at a loss to see why.
Too bad that rpg.net is such a double-standard place now. But with a lot of the moderators being OP freelancers, i am not surprised by the hypocrisy.
And i agree with nexus. It's astounding what the Ex Devs can do and say and still some people will endlessly defend them. And the "it's a labor of love ... if i were in it for the money then..." gets old real fast. They work for a company that publishes rpgs...so in my book that is "being a professional" ... so behave that way. Or get out of the business.
If any rulebook were purely a "labour of love" then these days you'd produce it and release it for free or at-cost. You wouldn't seek financial reimbursement for the time you spent working on it because you'd genuinely take pleasure in the process of doing that work, and you'd either put out a PDF for free without spending money on print runs or artwork or you'd scrape together money somehow to get artwork done and put out a book PoD at-cost.
If you're trying to make a profit off of a product - and in particular, if you're trying to make a career out of it - it's more than just a labour of love and you should approach it with that in mind. I sincerely doubt they would have put the work and effort they have already put into this "labour of love" if they did not also think it was a viable commercial product. (Conversely, if it really were a labour of love, commercial considerations wouldn't come into it.)
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;764710That is the company line. EX3 was going to happen no matter what and the kickstarter really was only to get a bunch of fancy extras.
My personal opinion is this is not factually accurate. I suspect the reality is that without the kickstarter the EX3 project would have been dead in the water at this point. I think it would have been abandoned by now as a failed project, due to delays and such. But the kickstarter has kept the product viable.
I also want to point out that despite being a "luxury product" they also put in a tier for preorders. So that kinda undermines there argument that its really just for the fancy extras.
Wow, lotta misunderstandings and weird assumptions here! Let's see if I can clear some stuff up.
1) I believe you'll find that "at this reward tier, you get the PDF when it's finished!" is present on every RPG kickstarter being done by every company, including independent ones. There's basically no reason not to include it, unless for some reason one is allergic to profits.
2) The way White Wolf (and now Onyx Path) works, there are no up-front production costs until a product reaches the mass-printing stage (and for a PDF or PDF-and-PoD product, there is no mass-printing stage). Historically, writers (and I assume artists as well; the art director handles artist contracts, though, so I could be mistaken about this) were paid
on publication of the finished book. [1] That is to say, the in-process development costs are 0; no money moves during the writing process. As a for-example, I submitted my final drafts for
Manual of Exalted Power: Alchemicals in very early January of 2009. The first (and last) time I saw any money for the work was in February or March of 2010, when the book came out.
[1] The process is a hair different these days. I'm not going to say exactly how it works now because that's technically covered by NDA, although I doubt anyone would actually care if I did. It's not radically different, in any case.
tl;dr: The kind of videogame-esque "ongoing development costs" you're imagining don't exist. I'm a form 1080p freelance contract worker; I don't draw a salary. EX3's staff costs are the same regardless of whether the thing is done in six weeks or six years; it has no regular physical production costs because there is no traditional print run going to stores; and the deluxe version will have a one-time up-front printing cost... which you guys lapped a dozen times over with the Kickstarter donations.
Hope that clarified things!
Why would the process by which the people writing the game get paid be under NDA?
Quote from: Kiero;767112Why would the process by which the people writing the game get paid be under NDA?
This sounds pedantic, but ... to prevent other people from knowing the details of the contracts. More specifically, it is often to keep contractors knowing the details of each other's contracts, which prevents *issues*. 'Wait, Kiero is getting paid X more per *thing*?? Fine, if you think I'm low quality, you get low quality."
I think NDAs for the contracts make a lot more sense than NDAs for the game development itself (for RPGs).
Quote from: Anglachel;766407Too bad that rpg.net is such a double-standard place now. But with a lot of the moderators being OP freelancers, i am not surprised by the hypocrisy.
Aren't a lot of moderators on rpg.net WoD developers? The same moderators as on the WW/Onyx Path fora? They usualy close your topic if you say something negative about their games. I was dissapointed in WoD Inferno. I expressed on Shadownessence I didn't like that fact the demons weren't real demon, but spirits of sin. That was a bummer to me. So the topic got closed with big red letters If you can't behave, we have to close this down. This was the final warning. Topic closed.. Freelance writer of WW was the moderator.
Quote from: Holden;766942Entire post.
Just curious. Do you like working for WW/Onyx Path?
I really enjoy the Exalted setting, but the ruleset from 1e/2e was too much for me. Fortunately, if you want to check out the setting AND have a really fun and easy ruleset, check out the Exalted Quickstart (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7S8NOzUyFzaYjQxZWRjMGEtNDk0MS00ZWFmLWI3ZmItYjQzNmY4ZjUxZDBi/edit?pli=1&hl=en).
There is also a website called Qwixalted that has some good ideas for adding cool stuff to the Quickstart from the 1e ruleset.
http://aakin.net/wiki/doku.php?id=qwixalted
Quote from: Holden;766942Stuff...
I am wondering why you guys are not done yet. People been waiting for years and while only one of you were ill the rest of you guys were still on the job. I am surprise a competitor hasn't come out and stolen your thunder yet.
Quote from: Holden;766942Wow, lotta misunderstandings and weird assumptions here! Let's see if I can clear some stuff up.
1) I believe you'll find that "at this reward tier, you get the PDF when it's finished!" is present on every RPG kickstarter being done by every company, including independent ones. There's basically no reason not to include it, unless for some reason one is allergic to profits.
2) The way White Wolf (and now Onyx Path) works, there are no up-front production costs until a product reaches the mass-printing stage (and for a PDF or PDF-and-PoD product, there is no mass-printing stage). Historically, writers (and I assume artists as well; the art director handles artist contracts, though, so I could be mistaken about this) were paid on publication of the finished book. [1] That is to say, the in-process development costs are 0; no money moves during the writing process. As a for-example, I submitted my final drafts for Manual of Exalted Power: Alchemicals in very early January of 2009. The first (and last) time I saw any money for the work was in February or March of 2010, when the book came out.
[1] The process is a hair different these days. I'm not going to say exactly how it works now because that's technically covered by NDA, although I doubt anyone would actually care if I did. It's not radically different, in any case.
tl;dr: The kind of videogame-esque "ongoing development costs" you're imagining don't exist. I'm a form 1080p freelance contract worker; I don't draw a salary. EX3's staff costs are the same regardless of whether the thing is done in six weeks or six years; it has no regular physical production costs because there is no traditional print run going to stores; and the deluxe version will have a one-time up-front printing cost... which you guys lapped a dozen times over with the Kickstarter donations.
Hope that clarified things!
Thanks Holden, I wasn't aware that it worked that way. So part of my opinion is largely incorrect.
Now as for the part about the pre-orders. I agree they make for good business. Its a perfectly reasonable thing to include. But by offering bog standard pdf preorders you undermine the argument that this is a kickstarter for the "deluxe print edition" because it isn't. The Kickstarter was for Exalted 3 in general. Because you offered a range of products from pdf only up through the deluxe print edition.
It may seem pedantic but its a very important difference. It's also very frustrating when people keep referring to it as a kickstarter for the "deluxe print edition" when it really isn't. It's both technically incorrect and it comes across as deeply dismissive if not openly insulting.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;767434Just curious. Do you like working for WW/Onyx Path?
Yes, he does. He is one of the developers of the game in question.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;767443Yes, he does. He is one of the developers of the game in question.
Let Holden answer his question. We are not attacking him so there is no need to defend him.
I've been thinking about the "controversial" Celestial Bliss Trick charm proposed in the playtest document and talking about it with my group. The major problem with it seems to be that the text doesn't explicitly say that it must be used in consensual sexual activity. The text uses terms like "lover" and "partner" implying consent but apparently never comes right out and says it required leading a potentially very dark use.
And we're okay with that.
Exalted has always been played up as a game about power, its use and abuse and the consequences they entail. Charms are like weapons. They're tools. Its the intent that matters. That this effect can be used in a disturbing way doesn't mean its should be verboten. It fits in the Solar ability paradigm (legendary heroes and masters of skill), being the "World's Greatest Lover", Creation's Don Juan or Mata Hari is a fairly solid concept for a solar.
As for using it to the facilitate sexual assault and forcing the victim to like it. Well, the Solars and Exalted in general got up to some foul crap. It part of the reason the setting is circling the drain as it stands. Charms shouldn't, IMO, come with morality blockers anymore than a sword or a hammer. Creation, while large in scope, is morally neutral. Now not all groups are going want to deal with an explicitly sexual charm, and that's a different matter. If any material is too uncomfortable to use then don't. As I understand, the charm isn't integral to anything but its own little tree.
I'm referring to the "moral panic" objections I've seen. A ton of the social charms have potentially "skeevy" uses (Hypnotic Tongue Technique, Memory Reweaving Discipline leap to mind), ones that my players wouldn't use but a villainous NPC very well might. And something fueled the horror stories of the Anathema and their irresistible wiles.
Having something with a potentially foul use in a setting doesn't mean the writers are endorsing that action. Its up to each group to determine what their limits and tolerances are. We're adults, Exalted is, allegedly, a game to be played mostly by adults. I find the calls what amounts to hand holding as if a single power is going to turn everyone that reads it into a slavering sex fiend the height of hyberbole
and over reaction
I guess to show how much the mood of the fanbase as their have been charms like this (Sidereal Celestial Bliss trick, Thousand Courtasean Calculations for Alchemicals, etc) in the game since the beginning and I don't recall this much of a stink coming up before.
For me, its odd that people reading a description of an ability that makes the character a superlative lover immediately went to rape in their heads...
No kidding Nexus. I read Exalted books before and those charms fit the setting very well. I can imagine those charms are used for good and ill so to me the charms don't really scream much to me.
Creation is the land of extremes and exotic. In one part of creation you could be in a island paradise living the big life. In another part of creation there is a massive genocide forge a new shadow land by shoving innocent people into abyssal necromancy machines. Like I said it is a setting of extremes.
As for the people complaining about those charms I just wish they go away. Play a setting that matches up with sensibilities, but don't try to ruin a setting that is already created for maybe at least two decades ago. How old is exalted?
Quote from: Snowman0147;767445Let Holden answer his question. We are not attacking him so there is no need to defend him.
I just realized that I totally miss read his question. Sorry for responding to a question that wasn't actually asked. My mistake!
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;767454I just realized that I totally miss read his question. Sorry for responding to a question that wasn't actually asked. My mistake!
Oh I thought you are defending him. I am sorry about that.
Quote from: Nexus;767447For me, its odd that people reading a description of an ability that makes the character a superlative lover immediately went to rape in their heads...
I think my big issue with the conclusion they drew was that, because rape might have been
possible if you took the most extreme reading you could (which could be done with a lot of mechanics in a lot of games), it was also permissible, and that if someone chose to abuse this mechanic and their fellow players in this way, it's not the player's fault but the Dev's fault.
That was an incredibly off-putting conclusion to see.
Quote from: Paper Monkey;767682I think my big issue with the conclusion they drew was that, because rape might have been possible if you took the most extreme reading you could (which could be done with a lot of mechanics in a lot of games), it was also permissible, and that if someone chose to abuse this mechanic and their fellow players in this way, it's not the player's fault but the Dev's fault.
That was an incredibly off-putting conclusion to see.
So your telling me that these social justice trolls are thinking up ways to rape each other when they view each charm? That is a fuck up and ironic at the same time.
Quote from: Snowman0147;767689So your telling me that these social justice trolls are thinking up ways to rape each other when they view each charm? That is a fuck up and ironic at the same time.
The argument was basically, "There's nothing in this charm that requires that sort of thing, and if you use it that way, that's really on you as the player for being a sociopath" followed by the same people arguing against the charm stating that there's nothing wrong with pointing out that it was the optimal way to play (and I wasn't able to see any argument that proved this) and that exploiting bugs in a mechanic isn't the player's fault but the person who left the bugs in there.
Which, again, sort of falls flat when 'the bug' in question nevertheless entails shit like raping people?
If you use a magical ability to rape some one that is on you. There is no argument about it. You did the act.
Same can be said that if you use a magical ability to enhance the sex life of your consenting lover and yourself is your doing. No argument there. You did the act.
The charm cannot rape, or make sex more enjoyable. It is the user of that charm that determines the outcome. The responsibility is on the user.
Though given this is a solar charm and this is set at the time in which the exalted are showing up again I am going to make a guess. I don't think there is going to be any rape, but there is going to be a a lot of happy consenting people. After all the solars are the heroes of the setting.
Quote from: Paper Monkey;767682I think my big issue with the conclusion they drew was that, because rape might have been possible if you took the most extreme reading you could (which could be done with a lot of mechanics in a lot of games), it was also permissible, and that if someone chose to abuse this mechanic and their fellow players in this way, it's not the player's fault but the Dev's fault.
That was an incredibly off-putting conclusion to see.
I once heard a guy used his player's handbook to beat a puppy. Clearlly WOTC is to blame for making it available in hardcover. What other possible use could there be for a 304 page hardcover book other than harming puppies?
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;767703I once heard a guy used his player's handbook to beat a puppy. Clearlly WOTC is to blame for making it available in hardcover. What other possible use could there be for a 304 page hardcover book other than harming puppies?
Good thing it wasn't HERO.
Or Pathfinder core book. Seriously it is over 600 pages. Nothing like Hero, but that has to pack a punch.
Quote from: Snowman0147;767445Let Holden answer his question. We are not attacking him so there is no need to defend him.
I am indeed not attacking him. I play WoD games. Like I said, I am just curious.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;767896I am indeed not attacking him. I play WoD games. Like I said, I am just curious.
He stands as the only Exalted person I have even a shred of respect for these days.
Quote from: Snowman0147;767710Or Pathfinder core book. Seriously it is over 600 pages. Nothing like Hero, but that has to pack a punch.
Actually Pathfinder has almost exactly the same page count as Hero 5e Revised, the famously massive Hero book. Just had to point that out :-)
Quote from: The_Shadow;767953Actually Pathfinder has almost exactly the same page count as Hero 5e Revised, the famously massive Hero book. Just had to point that out :-)
Damn... Did not know that. That is a dead dog.
Quote from: Celestial;767707Good thing it wasn't HERO.
5d6 Normal Damage
Quote from: Nibbler;18186340How much more funding is going to be needed for the game to come out?
Another GoFundMe opened up for John Morke yesterday. I donated for the medical expenses issue, but at this point, we're paying student loan payments (and it turned out to be a false alarm on the medical tests anyway).
It feels like the game is being held hostage.
This is the third GoFundMe since the Kickstarter. Exalted has now had four funding drives.
Nibbler does have a point. No so much the medical tests, but student loan payments?
You couldn't let this die at the 5d6 damage books?
Well, i guess that's how OPP wants to work. Sad.
And if John had any integrity, he would just step down as lead designer and give the reigns to someone else. Stop "blackmailing" the fans of Ex3E with your begging projects, it's embarrassing.
Quote from: Snowman0147;779218You couldn't let this die at the 5d6 damage books?
Saw something interesting, posted it. No one is forcing you to read it or post to the thread bump it up further.
I was also joking.
Quote from: Snowman0147;779275I was also joking.
Bah. I say Bah and piffle!
:D
Quote from: Snowman0147;779218You couldn't let this die at the 5d6 damage books?
It's alive-
IT'S ALIVE!!!
I really hope that there are not actually 900 charms in the core book or that that number at least includes some sample affects for other beings and Exalts. Every time I see that number quoted my jaw practically drops.
Apparently its true or if its an exaggeration its not much of one
Quote from: hatewheel;18174978War and Sail. The corebook only has very basic coverage for this. We plan to do more later. There's enough there for you to have fun, though.
I wrote around 900 Charms for the Solar set. I can only recall one that directly interacts with siege weaponry off the top of my head, not counting Excellencies.
Maybe instead of Charm Combos they should come up with a Charm Macro.
JG
Quote from: Anglachel;779226Well, i guess that's how OPP wants to work. Sad.
And if John had any integrity, he would just step down as lead designer and give the reigns to someone else. Stop "blackmailing" the fans of Ex3E with your begging projects, it's embarrassing.
I agree, but then the general standard of professionalism hasn't exactly been high. We've already talked about the piss-poor marketing approach.
Quote from: Nexus;779191Nibbler does have a point. No so much the medical tests, but student loan payments?
Yes, student loans are awful.
But given that's the nature of things, if only there were some thing that Onyx Path could use as justification to give him money. Maybe - and I'm just throwing this out here! - maybe he could get paid, for writing an RPG rulebook?
Nah, it'd never work.
---
900 of a thing in a game is too many. Sounds like needless complexity for the sake of it.
I'm not unsympathetic to the low pay in the rpg industry but, OTOH, no one is forced to be an rpg writer or use it as the their primary source of income. In the end, its a hobby industry. It probably isn't even going to support pays rates competitive with the "real world". But working in it is a choice and the ongoing attitude of "we can do anything and act in anyway because we're poor oppressed rpg writers, pity us" I'm getting from the Exalted team is really starting to grate. And I have to wonder if some of the could make it in the professional world which expects professional results and behavior.
Being frightened and in a desperate perhaps mortal quandary is one thing, milking the good will and support of strangers to pay back your loans is another, IMO. Its legal and if people want to denote they're doing if of their own free will but it seems tacky. And while it might now (probably isn't) holding the game hostage in any sense, I can see where it might feel that way and the feeling might even be something banked on.
Quote from: Ladybird;779853Yes, student loans are awful.
But given that's the nature of things, if only there were some thing that Onyx Path could use as justification to give him money. Maybe - and I'm just throwing this out here! - maybe he could get paid, for writing an RPG rulebook?
Nah, it'd never work.
You're assuming that Onyx Path even have the money lying around, which may well not be the case. Yeah, they had that Kickstarter, but a substantial portion of that money is going to be ringfenced for the purpose of printing and sending out the Kickstarter rewards. They may have already paid the writers, only for the medical expenses to eat up John's cut. Who knows?
Quote from: Warthur;779865You're assuming that Onyx Path even have the money lying around, which may well not be the case. Yeah, they had that Kickstarter, but a substantial portion of that money is going to be ringfenced for the purpose of printing and sending out the Kickstarter rewards. They may have already paid the writers, only for the medical expenses to eat up John's cut. Who knows?
In a civilised country, there would be some kind of nationalised health service for him to rely on. It is shameful that someone in a supposed first-world democracy can be bankrupted simply due to part of their body stopping working.
Student loans are crap, but the american healthcare system is unforgivable.
900 charms? Holy shit that is way too much. I was thinking ten charms per skill which means 250 charms in total. Point is that is going to make long time fans and newbies look at the book and be intimidated by the sheer amount of charms. There is a reason why many people in DnD stick with none spell casting classes. They really don't want to go through with all those spells while in Exalted you have to go through all those charms.
Edit: I thought the whole reason for 3.0 was to streamlined the game. I guess the staff doesn't know what streamlined means. Then again a theory just pop up in my mind. I think the writers know that Exalted 3.0 is going to fail so they are cramming as much info that they can get away with.
Quote from: Snowman0147;779893900 charms? Holy shit that is way too much. I was thinking ten charms per skill which means 250 charms in total. Point is that is going to make long time fans and newbies look at the book and be intimidated by the sheer amount of charms. There is a reason why many people in DnD stick with none spell casting classes. They really don't want to go through with all those spells while in Exalted you have to go through all those charms.
And that's 900 or so charms before martial arts styles (there are 11) and Evocations. And whatever other new things are included.
The story seems to be allot of those charms are upgrades to a previous charm that add functionality or boost power but don't do something totally new.
I have heard that characters can start off with as many of 20 charms but I'm not certain if that's the case.
QuoteEdit: I thought the whole reason for 3.0 was to streamlined the game. I guess the staff doesn't know what streamlined means. Then again a theory just pop up in my mind. I think the writers know that Exalted 3.0 is going to fail so they are cramming as much info that they can get away with.
Oh but it is streamlined and simplified. The Developers said so and the Play testers agreed! But they can't tell you how. NDA and all that but saying otherwise is just whining and speaking out of turn
*shrug*
Common sense would disagree with them due to the simple fact there is 900 fucking charms. The fact you just told me this is before martial arts and evocations is scary. There is going to be a lot of book keeping and that is not streamlining. It is called bulking the system up.
I stand corrected. According to Holden there are approximately 780 charms in the Solar set with 11 MA styles with around 11-13 charms in their respective trees and Evocations (I have no idea how many of those). So I guess its around 900ish total charms.
Quote from: Nexus;779901The story seems to be allot of those charms are upgrades to a previous charm that add functionality or boost power but don't do something totally new.
Which works fine the first time around.
Next time you play a character with a particular charm set, you'll be used to the way the charms worked for your previous character, including the tweaks, so you'll make mistakes and mis-apply things, thinking that the charm works the way you had it rather than the base. It'll be a nightmare.
Quote from: Snowman0147;779893900 charms? Holy shit that is way too much. I was thinking ten charms per skill which means 250 charms in total. Point is that is going to make long time fans and newbies look at the book and be intimidated by the sheer amount of charms. There is a reason why many people in DnD stick with none spell casting classes. They really don't want to go through with all those spells while in Exalted you have to go through all those charms.
Edit: I thought the whole reason for 3.0 was to streamlined the game. I guess the staff doesn't know what streamlined means. Then again a theory just pop up in my mind. I think the writers know that Exalted 3.0 is going to fail so they are cramming as much info that they can get away with.
I don't think its that. I think its more that they have bad management. There wasn't anyone to keep them focused on the goal of "simplification" and to decide before they started what that meant.
So the project quickly spiraled out of control and they put everything they thought would be interesting into the game. And you end up with 780 charms to keep track of for character creation purposes and however many each character has.
Quote from: Nexus;779926I stand corrected. According to Holden there are approximately 780 charms in the Solar set with 11 MA styles with around 11-13 charms in their respective trees and Evocations (I have no idea how many of those). So I guess its around 900ish total charms.
I understood that to be 780 charms in the book total. Including the Martial Arts Styles. Which isn't as bad as 900ish but still way more than is manageable. Edit: Actually, rereading it it does seem like its 780 without Martial Arts or Evocations... Jesus.
Quote from: Ladybird;779928Which works fine the first time around.
Next time you play a character with a particular charm set, you'll be used to the way the charms worked for your previous character, including the tweaks, so you'll make mistakes and mis-apply things, thinking that the charm works the way you had it rather than the base. It'll be a nightmare.
Yes, playing with that many charms will be a nightmare. Character creation will be a huge pain and trying to keep track of them. Ugh....
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;780211I don't think its that. I think its more that they have bad management. There wasn't anyone to keep them focused on the goal of "simplification" and to decide before they started what that meant.
So the project quickly spiraled out of control and they put everything they thought would be interesting into the game. And you end up with 780 charms to keep track of for character creation purposes and however many each character has.
You pretty much nailed it. If it was done under good management the list of charms would had been condense. Like from a list of 780 + martial arts charms to 250 + martial arts charms. Ten charms per skill/martial art isn't that bad and frankly I would rather deal with that than the mess that is being done now.
At the end of the day people are going to get confused when they open that book and try to make their exalted character. Seriously those developers are killing exalted without even knowing it.
Quote from: Snowman0147;780222Like from a list of 780 + martial arts charms to 250 + martial arts charms. Ten charms per skill/martial art isn't that bad and frankly I would rather deal with that than the mess that is being done now.
That's still more than was in 1st Edition Exalted, and even that has a reputation for being bloated. In high level games, charm cards were a necessity. Most charms are just experience tax anyway.
I think you really underestimate just how much Exalted players like crap like this. It's like Magic the Gathering. I'll never understand how people can just buy a new truckload of imaginary magic spells every few months and throw away their old ones.
This charm bloat is coming from a collectible card game point of view. There's always been a tendency in Exalted supplements to increase the mechanical complexity. It even infected
talking, because obviously characters can't have a conversation without bringing kewl powers into it.
Just wait, though, simultaneous with release of Exalted 3rd will be charm card packs for sale on DriveThru to "help you keep track." See: condition cards for use with the 2nd Edition of the nWoD.
Don't tell me about it. Conditions are the worst thing to happen to world of darkness. It was bad enough with the merit bloat that first edition nWoD had going for itself. Now with conditions, tilts, and merits added up for the second edition of nWoD I have to say things are bad. Fact is if you NEED cards to keep track of things as you play your game your doing it wrong.
It is no wonder why DnD 5th edition limit the amount of spells you can prepare for spell casting. Oh sure you can do fun things with the spell slots with those spells. Hell you can amp up magic missile as 9th level spell which is pretty awesome. Point is it reduces the bloat that spell casters have to worry about and make life easier on the GM. Not to mention it is less real world resource intensive.
Its 780+
Quote from: Stephen Lea Sheppard;18208451Holden just answered this; 780~ in the Solar set, not counting MA or Evocations. Or spells, I guess. Holden, does it count spells? You didn't specify.
Quote from: Nexus;780270Its 780+
Oh, that's OK then. 781 is my exact limit.
Fucking hell, this looks like the kind of mess DnD4 had at the end of the line, and Exalted manages to do it at the beginning. Up side is it will keep the white roomers busy for a while, so at least I won't have to listen about how multiclassing four plus times breaks 5th.
Fantasy HERO: For those who like Exalted, but wanted less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;780284Fantasy HERO: For those who like Exalted, but wanted less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.
Makes me really, really wish I had the time and mindset to get into HERO.
I really regard Exalted as one of the great unfulfilled promises of gaming.
This is why I tell people to try out FATE, or better yet for DnD players Scarlet Heroes (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/127180/Scarlet-Heroes).
Sure it is not Exalted, but it is damn well close to it. Not to mention these options are far less bloated and complicated than Exalted. Given what is going on with 3rd edition of Exalted you may have no choice.
Quote from: Nexus;780270Its 780+
That's incredibly depressing.
I ran and played the first edition. I liked the first edition, it's just over time, I wanted a game that could capture the same feels in a smaller package. As a GM it was a chore to make and track the charms/spells/abilities of the NPCs, and it only gets worse as the PCs become experienced, and you consider the charms they have available. Creating a villain who would be a challenge in any encounter was not always easy.
If they're willing to throw that much info out for the PCs, I shudder what that will mean for the GM. I don't like the prospect of needing a small notebook for each fully-statted NPC.
Quote from: JamesV;780307That's incredibly depressing.
I ran and played the first edition. I liked the first edition, it's just over time, I wanted a game that could capture the same feels in a smaller package. As a GM it was a chore to make and track the charms/spells/abilities of the NPCs, and it only gets worse as the PCs become experienced, and you consider the charms they have available. Creating a villain who would be a challenge in any encounter was not always easy.
If they're willing to throw that much info out for the PCs, I shudder what that will mean for the GM. I don't like the prospect of needing a small notebook for each fully-statted NPC.
There are some fast NPC rules (and I think templates?) from what I hear but I can't tell you much about them
Quote from: Snowman0147;780303This is why I tell people to try out FATE, or better yet for DnD players Scarlet Heroes (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/127180/Scarlet-Heroes).
Kevin's discussed doing an even more Exalted-esque game quite a few times before now; I think it's in his to-do list somewhere, but yeah, Scarlet Heroes is a good start, and a game you could have a lot of fun with.
Okay this is a shameless self promotion, but I am working on a way to get something similar to Exalted. It will be a long time coming, but getting a Exalted like setting is on my to do lists as well. Here is a link to my blog (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2014/08/struggle-of-moirai.html). Hopefully my Struggle of the Moirai system can match up to Exalted, but still is system light which means everyone on the table won't get slow down at all.
In fairness, I think they are trying to appeal to a significant or at least very vocal section of the fan base that considers charms, exception based design and a plethora of fiddly bits as a draw, the meat of the system basically.
In earlier editions there was a great deal of clamoring for more and more intricate charms which seems to have drowned out other ideas on presentation. I guess people looking for lighter mechanics, effects driven rules, etc, have mostly moved on to other systems that offer them.
Quote from: Nexus;780357I guess people looking for lighter mechanics, effects driven rules, etc, have mostly moved on to other systems that offer them.
Yes, because I actually want to PLAY THE GAME, not mentally create game-breaking characters and scenarios. I think the system mastery crowd should stay out of Exalted and buy Warhammer armies.
Quote from: Nexus;780357In fairness, I think they are trying to appeal to a significant or at least very vocal section of the fan base that considers charms, exception based design and a plethora of fiddly bits as a draw, the meat of the system basically.
In earlier editions there was a great deal of clamoring for more and more intricate charms which seems to have drowned out other ideas on presentation. I guess people looking for lighter mechanics, effects driven rules, etc, have mostly moved on to other systems that offer them.
I'm pretty sure that's the case. But I've found that even those of us who like intricate stuff (and even I don't like it as intricate as Exalted 2nd Edition) often don't have the time to research all the stuff any more.
JG
Quote from: Harshael;780377Yes, because I actually want to PLAY THE GAME, not mentally create game-breaking characters and scenarios. I think the system mastery crowd should stay out of Exalted and buy Warhammer armies.
Don't get me wrong, moving on and finding another system is probably the best idea. I'm not sure why I'm holding out some frail hope 3rd might be worth a damn to me.
Quote from: James Gillen;780385I'm pretty sure that's the case. But I've found that even those of us who like intricate stuff (and even I don't like it as intricate as Exalted 2nd Edition) often don't have the time to research all the stuff any more.
JG
I like intricate systems and this is starting to sound like a little much. Personally I've thought Exalted should move in the opposite direction from high crunch, maybe something slightly moire complicated than MHRP but I'm in the minority on that as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Harshael;780377Yes, because I actually want to PLAY THE GAME, not mentally create game-breaking characters and scenarios. I think the system mastery crowd should stay out of Exalted and buy Warhammer armies.
Hey now. Leave those armies alone. You know damn well those Exalted charm crutch crowd would ruin Warhammer more than Game Workshop is doing right now. Let the poison fester in its own spawning pool.
The only cure for people that actually want to play Exalted instead of doing theory craft is to find another system. That is the sad truth. Right now the only two people that are working on such a idea is the guy who made Scarlet Heroes and me with my Struggle of the Moirai system.
The only reason I am pointing at my own still being built system is because I honestly believe it has a chance to replace Exalted for people that don't want all those rules bloat. Right now I am dancing around with my silly ideas. Hell having made no books I am basicly unproven at this point.
That is how bad the Exalted developers are doing. You have unknown elements like me thinking that I can take them on and beat them at their own setting. That is a very bad thing because I am usually the one always say, "Leave it to the professionals." These guys are not acting like professionals.
What i find funny is that, as it seems, all the promises made in sommer of 2013 (or around that time...just when they first started talking about Ex3E) are null and void.
Streamlined system? Nope, doesn't look like it.
Rebuilt the system from the ground up? Yeah right...what we know still looks a lot like the old basic system with a few tweaks...that's NOT "rebuilt from the gorund up" by any meaningful definition of that sentence.
So Ex3E will more or less look the same...and while it might not have the exact same traps and pitfalls that 2e had, i am sure it will just have new ones that are just as awful. Which is a shame, really.
I do not agree that there are no options atm, though (so no, the SH guy and you are not the only ones on the quest for a playable Exalted). There is a good Cortex + heroic Exalted Hack and i think that Strange FATE would also make a very good Exalted game without the bloat of the OPP/WW versions.
Quote from: Anglachel;780430I do not agree that there are no options atm, though (so no, the SH guy and you are not the only ones on the quest for a playable Exalted). There is a good Cortex + heroic Exalted Hack and i think that Strange FATE would also make a very good Exalted game without the bloat of the OPP/WW versions.
There's Qwixalted, ExAltered, there's a One-roll hack, people have done it in Savage Worlds, any of the superhero systems, most of the Fate incarnations... it's solidly in the "fanbase hates the rules but loves the concept" bucket.
Quote from: Anglachel;780430Rebuilt the system from the ground up? Yeah right...what we know still looks a lot like the old basic system with a few tweaks...that's NOT "rebuilt from the gorund up" by any meaningful definition of that sentence.
This claim was always bollocks. Rebuild my arse, given how much time the team had invested in "fixing" 2nd edition in their Ink Monkeys incarnation. The moment they confirmed they weren't binning Storyteller and starting again was when we knew this would be nothing but a turd-polishing exercise.
The system is fundamentally shit, but they've spent so much time with it they're not willing to start again, even though you'd get a vastly superior game out of something actually designed for the job.
But hey, we can roll this turd in glitter!
I also think that the ST system is not really suited to Exalted. But if they had broken it down and really tried a true rebuild (c) (TM), i think they could have come up with something very good despite the not-optimal-start.
As it is, turd-polishing sounds a bit harsh but, unfortunately, not that far from the truth.
Quote from: Anglachel;780430I do not agree that there are no options atm, though (so no, the SH guy and you are not the only ones on the quest for a playable Exalted). There is a good Cortex + heroic Exalted Hack and i think that Strange FATE would also make a very good Exalted game without the bloat of the OPP/WW versions.
That I did not know. I know about the FATE hack, but not the others. Still that is only a good thing in the long run. More competition might actually force the developers to fix their sloppy mistakes.
Quote from: Anglachel;780492I also think that the ST system is not really suited to Exalted. But if they had broken it down and really tried a true rebuild (c) (TM), i think they could have come up with something very good despite the not-optimal-start.
I think the concepts in the game have changed to fit the system. That, to me, illustrates how bad a fit the ST system is.
QuoteAs it is, turd-polishing sounds a bit harsh but, unfortunately, not that far from the truth.
Agreed, its harsh but sadly accurate.
Quote from: Snowman0147;780497That I did not know. I know about the FATE hack, but not the others. Still that is only a good thing in the long run. More competition might actually force the developers to fix their sloppy mistakes.
it baffles me why more people haven't moved to other systems. Most of the "Can yo do this?" questions are "yes, in any number of other rule sets but in Exalted, not so much."
If the Fate version of Exalted taught me any thing it is that you put things into scale. Now I am going to take a wild guess due to my experiences with Exalted 2nd edition setting. As in you got the blooded, terrestrials, lunars, solars, and so on. The only ones that should be tricky are the shaped fae and alchemicals as they can bounce around in the scales. Mind you this only part of the solution.
Mundane: Normal people with no magical abilities. Gain no bonus and the weakest of abilities due to the fact it is actually mundane skills with no mystical enhancement. They are cap at 30 motes (aka essence 3).
Magical: Realm of mutants, blooded mortals, fae inside creation, and low level beings. Against mundane mortals these beings gain +1 to +2 bonus do to innate magical abilities that improve their skills. They have access to minor magical abilities, but nothing compared to true exalted. Some are cap at 30 motes (aka essence 3), but others can move on beyond that cap.
Terrestrial: Realm of the weakest exalted known as the dragon blooded. These princes of the earth share their mythical realm with only a few. Those are fae in the wyld, noble fae in creation, first circle demons, and so on. These beings are granted +3 bonus against mundane mortals. They also gain up to +2 bonus against magical beings. Their abilities are powerful, but nothing as impressive as their more powerful exalted counter parts. They suffer no essence cap.
Celestial: Realm of the medium range exalted. This is the realm of the siderials and lunars. Fewer beings get up to this level such as noble fae within the wyld. They gain +4 against mundane mortals as their innate abilities is far beyond any thing a mortal can do. Against magical beings they can get up to +3 bonus. Against terrestrials these powerful exalted gain a +1 against them as well. Their charms are more powerful than what the terrestrials can do.
Solar: The most perfect and powerful of the exalted. Only a extreme rare few are at this level of mythical power. Those are the abyssals and infernal exalted which were tainted by beings that created the gods. Against mundane mortals the solars have +5 bonus. Against magical beings the solars can have up to +4 bonus. Terrestrials give the solars +2 bonus and finally the celestial exalted grant the solars +1 bonus. Solars and their ilk have the most powerful abilities.
I am going to stop there. The bonuses I am just comparing that with how FATE handles skills. A mundane warrior with melee skill of five is nice. Pretty much the foremost expert at his field. Against a dawn solar, however, that is nothing. A dawn solar with melee skill five would be considered melee skill 10 if that solar fights that mundane warrior. The solar would have to roll pretty bad for the mundane to even have a chance at winning. Point is you can see what scale does.
If they use the storytelling system (nWoD) and applied proper scaling than making Exalted should be easy. Just give the solar a simple roll and apply five bonus successes if he/she succeeds when dealing with mortals.
Quote from: Nexus;779901And that's 900 or so charms before martial arts styles (there are 11) and Evocations. And whatever other new things are included.
The story seems to be allot of those charms are upgrades to a previous charm that add functionality or boost power but don't do something totally new.
That's pretty much what it looks like, to me. Most of these charms are relatively simple, narrow effects that build on a broad base, or have relatively simple effects like doubling successes, re-rolling 1's, or cancel penalties. You still get stuff like "merging with another dude's shadow and then using them as a meat puppet" too, though.
Quote from: Nexus;779901I have heard that characters can start off with as many of 20 charms but I'm not certain if that's the case.
There are rules for playing established Solars who have been around for a few years before the game begins as well, giving you more charms and better starting stats.
Quote from: Nexus;779901Oh but it is streamlined and simplified. The Developers said so and the Play testers agreed! But they can't tell you how. NDA and all that but saying otherwise is just whining and speaking out of turn
*shrug*
Have you been able to read the playtest leak yet? It's still circulating, and I'm curious as to how that informs your opinions of the game. So far, though, the base system seems to be pretty elegant and well-designed. Charm-bloat may or may not be an issue, depending on your preferences, but at a base there's really no reason to prefer 2E's combat and social system to 3E's. IMO, this time around there actually ideas in there that are worth stealing.
Quote from: Paper Monkey;780541but at a base there's really no reason to prefer 2E's combat and social system to 3E's.
That really isn't saying anything. I don't think many would choose 2E's combat and social system in preference to
anything else.
Quote from: Kiero;780546That really isn't saying anything. I don't think many would choose 2E's combat and social system in preference to anything else.
Oh, sure enough. But people still kept on playing 2E
anyways because they liked Exalted's setting. People are still willing to play/run 2E.
With this said, I'd still happily play a game with 3E's combat system even if it meant I wouldn't be roleplaying as a golden greek murder-hobo.
Quote from: Paper Monkey;780541There are rules for playing established Solars who have been around for a few years before the game begins as well, giving you more charms and better starting stats.
If that's the case then its not so nuts but the impression I've gotten is that its -starting- as in default characters that can have that many charms which is imposing.
QuoteHave you been able to read the playtest leak yet? It's still circulating, and I'm curious as to how that informs your opinions of the game.
Only from what I've gleaned from discussions of the spoilers and the leak which sound like several new systems have been added, allot of new jargon, allot of new mechanics packages (charms, spells, evocations, spells) and other items on a system I felt was pretty bloated and overloaded to begin with.
They may very well have worked it out so its all incredibly elegant and streamlined but that's the impression I've gotten so far. And the often angry retorts of "Its awesome, trust us!" from those "in the know haven't been reassuring as their either vague or they're people's who's tastes are seem very different from mine.
QuoteSo far, though, the base system seems to be pretty elegant and well-designed. Charm-bloat may or may not be an issue, depending on your preferences, but at a base there's really no reason to prefer 2E's combat and social system to 3E's. IMO, this time around there actually ideas in there that are worth stealing.
Are a play tester, by chance or have you seen the leaked document?
So far I haven't seen enough of the mechanics to make any kind of calls. Though being better than 2ed is pretty damn low bar.
Why did the developers needed a leak? Couldn't they just release a official play test version? What is with the nudge and wink as if they are trying to play cute when they did the leak? That annoys me to no end. Your not cute and frankly you should do your job. Just release a play test version.
Quote from: Nexus;780590If that's the case then its not so nuts but the impression I've gotten is that its -starting- as in default characters that can have that many charms which is imposing.
Normal starting characters get 13 charms instead.
QuoteAre a play tester, by chance or have you seen the leaked document?
So far I haven't seen enough of the mechanics to make any kind of calls. Though being better than 2ed is pretty damn low bar.
I'm just going by the leaked document, though I think a better indication of quality is: would you play the game even if it wasn't tied to the Exalted setting? I believe I would, as there are good ideas in there at the very least.
QuoteWhy did the developers needed a leak? Couldn't they just release a official play test version? What is with the nudge and wink as if they are trying to play cute when they did the leak? That annoys me to no end. Your not cute and frankly you should do your job. Just release a play test version.
The developers weren't the ones who released the leak. :p Hence why people call it a leak instead of a preview. One of the playtesters broke their NDA and put it all on 4chan. The problem is that a good third of the leak (including the mechanics for Crafting, Lore Charms, etc.) never got the benefits of playtester feedback when the docs were leaked.
Quote from: Paper Monkey;780621Normal starting characters get 13 charms instead.
Well, that's something.
QuoteI'm just going by the leaked document, though I think a better indication of quality is: would you play the game even if it wasn't tied to the Exalted setting? I believe I would, as there are good ideas in there at the very least.
I haven't heard anything that's really had a positive impression yet and more than I'm dubious about but I'm still willing to give it a look once it hits the shelves. But what's been revealed so far and the overall manner the development is being handled hasn't left me with high hopes.
Wasn't there a post some where in this thread that showed that one of the developers bribe a RPG.net mod, or poster that is buddies with the mods to quiet down over charm outrage? What was that bribe? Oh yeah a sneak peek into the rules set.
You honestly expect me to buy into the fact that some player leak out Exalted mechanic rules in 4chan? A site that is famous for anonymous posters as well as its trolling. Come on now I am not that stupid. If the developers are not above bribing what makes you think they are above posing as a player?
Before you ask yes this is a question about trust. The people that are doing exalted don't have my trust. They proven to me beyond a doubt that they are not professionals and don't deserve trust. I don't see how anyone could defend them.
Quote from: Nexus;780622Well, that's something.
I haven't heard anything that's really had a positive impression yet and more than I'm dubious about but I'm still willing to give it a look once it hits the shelves. But what's been revealed so far and the overall manner the development is being handled hasn't left me with high hopes.
The leak is still available if you want to look at it for yourself, though I don't think it's kosher for me to link to it directly.
Quote from: Paper Monkey;780628The leak is still available if you want to look at it for yourself, though I don't think it's kosher for me to link to it directly.
I confess I would like to take a look at it but I haven't any luck in finding it. I found about about it late in the game and most places had taken it down by the time the I got there.
Quote from: Nexus;781091I confess I would like to take a look at it but I haven't any luck in finding it. I found about about it late in the game and most places had taken it down by the time the I got there.
PM me an email.
Is discussing the leak document all right here?
Might as well since it already leaked. What harm could it possibly do now?
I can't believe they're adding even more more Exalted types to the setting. It was straining under the weight of what's there already (Lunars have an issue since 1st). I wonder if they're going to be full on "Fat Splats" or just NPCs?
Quote from: Nexus;785088I can't believe they're adding even more more Exalted types to the setting. It was straining under the weight of what's there already (Lunars have an issue since 1st). I wonder if they're going to be full on "Fat Splats" or just NPCs?
When I was following 3rd edition, the new types, along with the new map, was what I was most interested in. Have they said anything new about them?
Quote from: Starglyte;785097When I was following 3rd edition, the new types, along with the new map, was what I was most interested in. Have they said anything new about them?
I really haven't been paying that much attention to the new types so I can't say for sure. The Luminals are going to be sort of similar to Prometheans, IIRC, and the Getamine similar to Sidereals. Exigents are 'black market' Exalts created by minor gods using stolen Exaltations.
I am not a fan of new Exalted types, but after hearing all the details on the Exigents and how the Exigents book would double as a "how to create your own Exalted" antagonist book, it seemed like one of the best parts of 3e TBH.
I'm all for a how to create antagonists book but I felt like the game was fine with 5 splats and pushing a dozen is going just over the top. It starts watering down the concept of Exalts and makes the setting feel "crowded" (all IMO).
And I'm not sure why it was required, storywise, as they've been making such a big deal over tightening and decreasing the power levels so even mortals are ample opposition in many cases. So its not like more possible antagonists were needed. Seems like adding more weight to something that was already strained
Quote from: Nexus;785116I'm all for a how to create antagonists book but I felt like the game was fine with 5 splats and pushing a dozen is going just over the top. It starts watering down the concept of Exalts and makes the setting feel "crowded" (all IMO).
I agree. As said, as GM I liked the idea having an Exalted level antagonist that uses a single book for its mechanics and yet has a lot of variation.
However, I don't find mortals and gods/demons/elementals were sufficiently challenging. That required Exalted antagonists for most big bads. So, I see Exigents as a way of having that any reducing the strain in the process.
Count me in as someone who is also not sold on "even more Exalts" (TM). As Nexus said, the setting is overloaded as is...BUT, similar to Skywalker, i am very much interested in the Exigents. That IS indeed a cool idea.
All the other new Exalted-types will not exist in my Creation (if i am honest, i also do not use Alchemicals, i have no interest in them).
A largely descriptive post of a play test posted on Twitter by John Morke. Its behind the spoiler blocks in the post. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?733370-Exalted-Ask-the-Developers&p=18278052#post18278052)
Quote from: Anglachel;785366Count me in as someone who is also not sold on "even more Exalts" (TM). As Nexus said, the setting is overloaded as is...BUT, similar to Skywalker, i am very much interested in the Exigents. That IS indeed a cool idea.
All the other new Exalted-types will not exist in my Creation (if i am honest, i also do not use Alchemicals, i have no interest in them).
I already thought Alchemicals and Infernals were surplus to requirements, even more Exalts is a big turn-off to me.
Quote from: Nexus;785371A largely descriptive post of a play test posted on Twitter by John Morke. Its behind the spoiler blocks in the post. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?733370-Exalted-Ask-the-Developers&p=18278052#post18278052)
Gibberish. The comment there about CCGs sums up what I dislike of Exalted's combat system, though that's far from what the commenter intended.
Quote from: Harshael;785437Gibberish. The comment there about CCGs sums up what I dislike of Exalted's combat system, though that's far from what the commenter intended.
I can handle that if two things bare out. One, it's fast and two, the rules are concise enough that I don't have to dig into the book every turn.
I doubt either of these things will happen.
Quote from: Kiero;785416I already thought Alchemicals and Infernals were surplus to requirements, even more Exalts is a big turn-off to me.
Though surplus, I liked how Alchemicals were at least entirely optional to Exalted, and in many ways seperate from it. I ran a very fun game of Alchemicals as it let you run an Exalted like game with just 3 books :)
Quote from: Harshael;785437Gibberish. The comment there about CCGs sums up what I dislike of Exalted's combat system, though that's far from what the commenter intended.
Agreed. Never got what the appeal of "CCG" like combat was supposed to be but I can get over it if it works and holds together under stress.
That write up doesn't really tell you much though. Even knowing at least one version of the combat system it comes across a pretty opaque, most describing outcomes that practically any other system could generate, just color text and jargon.
Quote from: Anglachel;785366Count me in as someone who is also not sold on "even more Exalts" (TM). As Nexus said, the setting is overloaded as is...BUT, similar to Skywalker, i am very much interested in the Exigents. That IS indeed a cool idea.
I can get into the basic concept behind Exigents as Exalted of lesser Gods. The offficial back story is what leaves me cold. Though that a purely stylistic objection.
QuoteAll the other new Exalted-types will not exist in my Creation (if i am honest, i also do not use Alchemicals, i have no interest in them).
I like Alchemicals on their own but I don't think they work in Creation and stretch the concept of Exalt to the breaking point. I've incorporated similar beings in my own games as a type of powerful magical construct
I find it so amusing that for a game with a big selling point on how your characters are major powers in the world, rare and potent and movers and shakers that can reshape the world so much emphasis seems focused on making sure there are more and more things that can put the fear of God(s) into the PCs (including the mortals they've allegedly been elevated above).
Never understood how its supposed to be significantly different from, well, almost any other game. You're tougher than Joe Genero, Man on the Street but other than that, not too special.
Wait so mortals can fuck up exalted now? I thought when they said they are toning down the power they are just getting rid of one shot combo kills and cheap perfect defenses. Now mortals can rend solars apart. That is a alien concept to me.
These are the chosen of the most powerful and perfect god of the known setting. A god so powerful it made one of the weakest primordials/yozi into one of the most powerful beings by his mere presence. These are the beings that took vast armies of minor exalted, billions of mortals, and they were armed with super advance magic fused technologies to kill off. Your telling me some mortal with good stats can be a threat to that?
What the hell indeed.
Quote from: Snowman0147;785681Wait so mortals can fuck up exalted now? I thought when they said they are toning down the power they are just getting rid of one shot combo kills and cheap perfect defenses. Now mortals can rend solars apart. That is a alien concept to me.
These are the chosen of the most powerful and perfect god of the known setting. A god so powerful it made one of the weakest primordials/yozi into one of the most powerful beings by his mere presence. These are the beings that took vast armies of minor exalted, billions of mortals, and they were armed with super advance magic fused technologies to kill off. Your telling me some mortal with good stats can be a threat to that?
What the hell indeed.
The power levels has been "narrowed". Mortals can be more of a threat to even Celestials even experienced ones as I gather from the commentary. Which is apparently what a vocal amount of the fanbase want. I think its different expectation. For instance one poster said he was glad that he wouldn't run into the problem he'd had previously specifically that his Lunar PC was essentially untouchable by the young martial artist they'd been antagonizing.
I couldn't see why that was a problem. Why should a young mortal martial artist be able to punch a shapeshifting beast god? Why should Danny from the Karate Kid stand much of a chance against Wolverine*? Unless Danny is the PC...and maybe not even then depending on the campaign focus.
*Assuming a stand up fight.
Evidently its a "named character" vs "Faceless mook" thing at least in part. You could define any mortal as a "faceless mook" if you want I suppose but as a personal thing I've never liked that kind of meta shennangans in rpgs but if the rest of the system works for what I want to do I can live it (and the players need never see it).
If its true, then that is a poor development. I seem to recall outcry at how Exalted effectively devalued humanity as the Exalted were so much more powerful. I always found this to be weird as that dilemma is kind of central to the types of stories Exalted is meant to tell.
Quote from: Skywalker;785690If its true, then that is a poor development. I seem to recall outcry at how Exalted effectively devalued humanity as the Exalted were so much more powerful. I always found this to be weird as that dilemma is kind of central to the types of stories Exalted is meant to tell.
That's how I feel. Humanity isn't that powerful or "important" if all you think of is in terms of power and martial threat. What makes them important are the intangibles not how dangerous they are and the game is supposed to ask questions about power, responsibility and morality when are at the top of the heap.
Quote from: Nexus;785692That's how I feel. Humanity isn't that powerful or "important" if all you think of is in terms of power and martial threat. What makes them important are the intangibles not how dangerous they are and the game is supposed to ask questions about power, responsibility and morality when are at the top of the heap.
Yep. Exalted is awesome as humanity isn't powerful but its tremendously important. The two should not be equated, and doing so is a sign of an Exalted's fall to hubris.
Removing that from the game seems like removing the "stick" from the game's central dilemma.
It also takes a massive dump on the setting. Now I am questioning how the exalted defeated the all powerful primordials at this point. At least in 2E you can see it happening. Now it is impossible.
Quote from: Snowman0147;785708It also takes a massive dump on the setting. Now I am questioning how the exalted defeated the all powerful primordials at this point. At least in 2E you can see it happening. Now it is impossible.
Of course you can see it happening. They were signature characters, armed with developer fiat. Which makes them better than any mere Player Characters.
Nothing pisses off the players more than that shit you just said. Especially when said characters had work so damn hard to get to that level. Look I am the first one to say shit was too powerful at 2E. This, however, is too much of a power strip down.
Now a mere mortal is a threat when in past editions a single solar can waste a entire army of mortals. Old edition fans are gonna be piss off by this change.
A single combat Solar probably could handle a large number of "mooks" if they were grouped together a "battle group" (basically a modified version of 2nd's Mass combat rules) while a similar or lesser number of individual fll characters might be overwhelming. At least that's how I understand it. It's the "named character" thing I guess.
I can understand the "name thing" because I use it too, but at the same time the named heroes are actually on the same level as those they fight against. As in it is man versus man. This isn't a god vs man.
The weakest exalted requires a group of mortals to kill off even if you gave them names. That is the point of playing exalted. Your playing as some one that is beyond human. If the developers can't understand that, then why are they even bothering in making the game?
"How can I beat down and keep my players afraid and on the run?" has been a strangely consistent question for the fanbase of a game supposedly about playing a epic legendary hero destined to reshape the world.
It always seemed strangely adversarial and "old school" for a so called modern game. I mean wasn't the idea that PCs had to "earn" their power and respect and work up to being real heros one of the things often bitched in D and D? It's not "Zero to hero" literally but on a relative scale it sure feels like close to the same thing.
Edit: And this doesn't stop at combat. I've seen similar questions constantly. "How do I make my PCs miserable/fail/realize how rotten they're doing?" when said PCs have maxed skills backed by magical powers that make them literally superhuman at what they do. This goes from being socialites to running nations.
Quote from: Snowman0147;785783I can understand the "name thing" because I use it too, but at the same time the named heroes are actually on the same level as those they fight against. As in it is man versus man. This isn't a god vs man.
The weakest exalted requires a group of mortals to kill off even if you gave them names. That is the point of playing exalted. Your playing as some one that is beyond human. If the developers can't understand that, then why are they even bothering in making the game?
I think the system is part of the issue. It doesn't scale well especially at the high end without allot of hand holding by the ST. There isn't much difference between an Exalt and a mortal state wise in the base rules. The Exalt might have some more somewhat higher dice pools and some innate abilities (like faster better healing) but they mostly won't keep him from being stabbed to death by common soldiers. Between an Exalt and Heroic mortal the difference was even less.
Charms help, sometimes a great deal but once you run out of go juice (Essence) that ceases to be an issue and it seems like Persistent defenses and powers like Infinite Ability Mastery are largely excised in 3rd so essence doesn't grant many long term (in combat sense) advantage so numbers are more of an advantage. It makes me wonder about the Dragonblooded. As enemies of Celestials and out numbering them thousands to one...
But that does explain the Usurpation.
I haven't liked the direction Exalted has been going in since early 2ed. Its been becoming some kind of soapbox for the writers to lecture on the evils of whatever their particular socio economic or political hobgoblins are and less about legendary badasses and heroes doing epic and even Over the Top shit with a definite anime flavor which is now a playstyle treated with patronizing attitude and mild contempt ("Rpg.net Exalted").
And a setting meant to be neutral gray as far as innate morality (and I freely admit I largely ignored that aspect. I like my role playing more upbeat) is becoming a typical "White Wolf' Crapsack World where everything you do is "Doomed I tell you, Doom! Oh the Angst, Oh the Mature Gaming!" That's why its funny to see the game get hoisted by the SJW banner it so proudly flies these days.
I notice some players tried to do that shit on scion in a chat I used to go years ago. Getting close to decade actually. The STs wanted to make the setting dark and strip the control away from the players as much as possible.
My stance was this. "DUDE! Just let me be a fucking hero for once."
Quote from: Snowman0147;786675I notice some players tried to do that shit on scion in a chat I used to go years ago. Getting close to decade actually. The STs wanted to make the setting dark and strip the control away from the players as much as possible.
My stance was this. "DUDE! Just let me be a fucking hero for once."
What kind of White Wolf player ARE you?
JG
Some one that actually used his brain cells to figure out that Scion does not equal to World of Darkness and thus should not be played as the world of darkness. Can there be dark moments? Yes. Can there be light moments? Yes. Should one weigh more than the other? If it is the world of darkness yes. If it is scion fucking hell no.
Storyteller does seem to bring out the "Shades of Gray", emo, Crapsack worlder in allot of GMs.
Quote from: Nexus;786811Storyteller does seem to bring out the "Shades of Gray", emo, Crapsack worlder in allot of GMs.
Nah, I think it was a Zeitgeist. WoD by itself doesn't make GMs particularly propense towards storywank anyomre than AD&D 1e encourages them to pixelbitching, hack-and-slash or adversarial GMing.
And I like to imagine that for every boring auteur GM there was at least one cool GM running an awesome "By Night" chronicle, sandbox style.
Quote from: Nexus;786811Storyteller does seem to bring out the "Shades of Gray", emo, Crapsack worlder in allot of GMs.
It does and I am really sick of it when they do that to settings that are not shitty. Don't care if it uses storyteller. If the setting is not bleak you don't get to bleak up the place.
Quote from: Snowman0147;786819It does and I am really sick of it when they do that to settings that are not shitty. Don't care if it uses storyteller. If the setting is not bleak you don't get to bleak up the place.
Yeah, I had a GM, excuse me... ST that tried to make Adventure more "mature" for Christ's sake. Like LOEG and Watchmen without all the positivity.
But I would like to expand on my earlier statement. Its not the Storyteller system it self that creates the urge for "edgy, mature games" aside from being best suited for low power settings in its base form there's nothing about it that promotes that mood. Its the attitude that's gathered around it over the years as the original system for the World of Darkness.
So, "shades of grey" equals crapsack? Nah, totally not buying it. Shades of grey is my preferred game-setting-setting (:D) and i don't think my games are bleak or grimdark...they're just shades-of-grey. I find black and white games boring. Pure evil and shining white knights...ugh.
Quote from: Anglachel;786897So, "shades of grey" equals crapsack? Nah, totally not buying it.
The "shades of gray" in those games is more shades of black. That's why I put it in sarcasm quotes. The games aren't morally neutral or nuanced just bleak grimdark exercises in nihilism where the phrase "no good deed goes unpunished" was often literally true yet the games were advertized as "Shades of Gray".
Just how many of the TBP's moderation staff are also working on Exalted? It feels like every time I looked into an Exalted thread I see a new one.
Quote from: Nexus;786811Storyteller does seem to bring out the "Shades of Gray", emo, Crapsack worlder in allot of GMs.
I guessing it's more about the initial subject matter of playing dark gothy vampires attracting a certain crowd... who stuck around for other uses of the system that weren't inherently as dark but brought over those preferences anyway. The guys who first waved Exalted in my vicinity were big fans of VtM.
Quote from: Nexus;786946Just how many of the TBP's moderation staff are also working on Exalted? It feels like every time I looked into an Exalted thread I see a new one.
Three or four, and there are a couple that work for OP as nuWoD writers.
Quote from: Nexus;786894Yeah, I had a GM, excuse me... ST that tried to make Adventure more "mature" for Christ's sake. Like LOEG and Watchmen without all the positivity.
But I would like to expand on my earlier statement. Its the Storyteller system per se that creates the urge for "edgy, mature games" aside from being best suited for low power settings in its base form there's nothing about it that promotes that mood. Its the attitude that's gathered around it over the years as the original system for the World of Darkness.
we came to VtM from the Jyhad card game and we just ripped off alternate ruels floating round the web to start with so we never bought into the mature grimdark stuff. Our CoC were pretty Dark and everythign else we played was already Grim so ...
As a result we have had no issue lifting the storyteller system with its dice pools and using it for a bunch of games from Police procedurals to zombiepocalyse the game is entirely genre neutral. Stat + Skill = dice pool pretty simple really
Who is "Isator Levie"? He often speaks very authoritatively but I haven't seen any indication that he's one of the current writers.
Quote from: Nexus;788089Who is "Isator Levie"? He often speaks very authoritatively but I haven't seen any indication that he's one of the current writers.
He's not one of the writers, he's a fan.
You said it in a nice way.
Let me try:
I'd say he's a fanboy who thinks way too much of himself and his "knowledge". A big fat know-it-all and wise-ass who has an opinion on everything (not only Exalted).
But as the saying goes: Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
:D
I'm telling you people, stock up on camp fire snacks now. The flames are going be epic and entertaining when this drops.
I was talking with a friend this morning, and something occurred to me. Far West is horribly late, but at least we know the design intent. We have a basis for how the system works, short stories that fill out the setting, art and commentary that tells you 'this is my game, this is what to expect'.
Exalted? Promises the moon. It's going to play smooth, it's going to be epic, you're going to love everything we've done. We promise. And it's been lapped up with a side of, you can trust us, we care about your issues.
God, I can't wait for the the fallout.
The sad thing is, this is all the fault of those idiots that are now in charge of Exalted development.
Why? As has been proven, OPP can also do it "the other way"...aka open development and talking to the fans (in a not-talking-down-to-them way) and working with them instead of being arrogant and pompous asses.
For example, the new Scion will go this route. Congrats to whoever is in charge on that development team! This is the way to do it in the present of RPG publishing and development.
Quote from: Anglachel;788162The sad thing is, this is all the fault of those idiots that are now in charge of Exalted development.
Why? As has been proven, OPP can also do it "the other way"...aka open development and talking to the fans (in a not-talking-down-to-them way) and working with them instead of being arrogant and pompous asses.
For example, the new Scion will go this route. Congrats to whoever is in charge on that development team! This is the way to do it in the present of RPG publishing and development.
As has been pointed out, being vague, arrogant and pompous is pretty much old-school White Wolf style. ;)
JG
Quote from: DaveB;788134He's not one of the writers, he's a fan.
Thanks, I didn't think he was but he sounds like he is sometimes.
Quote from: Anglachel;788135You said it in a nice way.
Let me try:
I'd say he's a fanboy who thinks way too much of himself and his "knowledge". A big fat know-it-all and wise-ass who has an opinion on everything (not only Exalted).
But as the saying goes: Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
:D
Yeah, if its one thing Exalted fandom has its strong opinions.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;788145I'm telling you people, stock up on camp fire snacks now. The flames are going be epic and entertaining when this drops.
I was talking with a friend this morning, and something occurred to me. Far West is horribly late, but at least we know the design intent. We have a basis for how the system works, short stories that fill out the setting, art and commentary that tells you 'this is my game, this is what to expect'.
Exalted? Promises the moon. It's going to play smooth, it's going to be epic, you're going to love everything we've done. We promise. And it's been lapped up with a side of, you can trust us, we care about your issues.
God, I can't wait for the the fallout.
It should definitely be interesting. They're not doing themselves any favors by letting some assumptions about the new game take solid root. Just from the comments I think some people are in for a major disappointment unless the final product is substantially different.
Quote from: Anglachel;788162The sad thing is, this is all the fault of those idiots that are now in charge of Exalted development.
Why? As has been proven, OPP can also do it "the other way"...aka open development and talking to the fans (in a not-talking-down-to-them way) and working with them instead of being arrogant and pompous asses.
For example, the new Scion will go this route. Congrats to whoever is in charge on that development team! This is the way to do it in the present of RPG publishing and development.
Thing is, its their accepted style what their fanbase seems to have come to expect even appreciate by this pint.
Quote from: James Gillen;788194As has been pointed out, being vague, arrogant and pompous is pretty much old-school White Wolf style. ;)
JG
I think I might sig this.
Ignoring RPGnet and its opinions on Exalted is one guaranteed way to improve your experiences with the RPG IME. There are so many so called problems that actually don't need fixing (at least in the manner that it is thought to be fixed) that have been entrenched in the fan base's hive mind.
Actually at its base the Exalted 2nd edition is pretty solid. Notice I said at its BASE. This is before the charms, combos, magic, martial arts, and all those special rules got involve. A clever team of developers can actually cut off the fat, put in scale, and just put in a tiny bit of powers that still gives off that Exalted feel. Then again we are not dealing with a clever team of developers which brings up the real problem.
Quote from: Snowman0147;788226Actually at its base the Exalted 2nd edition is pretty solid. Notice I said at its BASE. This is before the charms, combos, magic, martial arts, and all those special rules got involve. A clever team of developers can actually cut off the fat, put in scale, and just put in a tiny bit of powers that still gives off that Exalted feel. Then again we are not dealing with a clever team of developers which brings up the real problem.
Exalted 2e isn't as bad as many claim. But as you say the good tends to be buried in layers of shite.
I would say that Exalted 1e is actually even more solid and simpler to boot. I have found that its easier to build 1e up to something that plays well than build 2e down to something that plays well. It needed a few patch ups and it would have been just fine. These could have been done in about 2 pages - excellencies for all abilities, static defences, cyclical initiative, and integrating WP with social charms.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;788145I'm telling you people, stock up on camp fire snacks now. The flames are going be epic and entertaining when this drops.
I was talking with a friend this morning, and something occurred to me. Far West is horribly late, but at least we know the design intent. We have a basis for how the system works, short stories that fill out the setting, art and commentary that tells you 'this is my game, this is what to expect'.
Exalted? Promises the moon. It's going to play smooth, it's going to be epic, you're going to love everything we've done. We promise. And it's been lapped up with a side of, you can trust us, we care about your issues.
God, I can't wait for the the fallout.
I have little doubt this will be the case. There's already been little embers of the ensuing firestorm in any question threads that pop up. Mostly quickly extinguished ( I suspect in part due to how Mods there are also working Exalted) but its going to be pretty big when it hits unless the game is damn near perfect.
Quote from: Snowman0147;788226Actually at its base the Exalted 2nd edition is pretty solid. Notice I said at its BASE. This is before the charms, combos, magic, martial arts, and all those special rules got involve. A clever team of developers can actually cut off the fat, put in scale, and just put in a tiny bit of powers that still gives off that Exalted feel.
They did that. It was called
Adventure!JG
Quote from: James Gillen;788298They did that. It was called Adventure!
JG
(http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/cm-43589-150ec6b2620564.jpeg)
Quote from: James Gillen;788194As has been pointed out, being vague, arrogant and pompous is pretty much old-school White Wolf style. ;)
JG
And lets not forget getting sulky and huffy when someone doesn't immediately grasp their genius.
Quote from: Nexus;788332And lets not forget getting sulky and huffy when someone doesn't immediately grasp their genius.
Indeed. :yes:
jg
Is it just me or does about 90 or so percent of Exalted fans and all of the staff seem to share the SJW platform? I'm curious how this is going to show up in the 3rd edition run.
Well creativity and actually representing the setting for what it is had already suffered.
Sorry, SJW platform?
Quote from: Manic Modron;790256Sorry, SJW platform?
"Social Justice Warrior." Or what Pundit accurately calls "psuedo-Activists" in the sense that they're agitated over social issues that don't actually matter. Given that prior editions of Exalted achieved a certain amount of controversy over the drug and slave trade in Nexus (among other things) the fact that it's now apparently under the sway of the "SJW platform" is kinda ironic.
jg
It also includes having some very large ideological blinders that can produce some odd results.
Yeah, i really really hope that the rpg.net thread is the extreme outlier. If the devs listen to all the SJWs then they will even manage to fuck up the setting (which was, until now, the big selling point of Exalted).
I mean seriously...just look at posts from David J. Prokopetz (as big a know-it-all idiot as the Isator Levie dude...they both love to "hear" themselves "talk")...he twists posts of other memebers way out of shape so just that he can swoop in and be a smart-ass about it....in a SJW way. And he's not the only one that goes about posting that way. At least this time, a mod swooped in and stopped the tangent.
Rpg.net devolves more and more into a place where the best thing to do would be to post a big fat all erasing roll-eyes smiley...
...which i find sad.
Quote from: Snowman0147;790252Well creativity and actually representing the setting for what it is had already suffered.
Agreed. As I've said, I'm interested in 3rd for the mechanics. Almost nothing I've heard about the setting changes sound like they're for the better.
Quote from: Nexus;790249Is it just me or does about 90 or so percent of Exalted fans and all of the staff seem to share the SJW platform? I'm curious how this is going to show up in the 3rd edition run.
Which is interesting because White Wolf has released products that should be orders of magnitude more egregious to someone actually concerned with Social Justice then say, all of FATAL, or the single Numenera monster, or the stupidest crap Desborough says.
Quote from: Snowman0147;786819It does and I am really sick of it when they do that to settings that are not shitty. Don't care if it uses storyteller. If the setting is not bleak you don't get to bleak up the place.
I just started running a 1st edition game, and for now since the characters are still "new" and learning what they can and cannot do, they're on the run, but it won't last long. They're already talking about plans to return and have a "chat" with a garrison of Realm soldiery and their Dragon-Blooded commander in the near future. So no, not shitty, or bleak, just a ramp-up period where the players AND characters are learning what they can and can't do. I think for a first-time group (and Exalted GM like me), it's a natural progression while we all learn the ropes. I'm sure they'll be blazing their 50-foot-tall anima and mowing down scores of soldiers before you know it. :)
Want to throw this out for anyone who wants to answer: since there is SO damn much background in the setting, which I love and have spent two weeks reading, I was thinking of implementing a mechanic where the players can spend one or more motes of Essence to "remember" things when the players need or want more info, rather than having them try to read up on thousands of years of history. I know the Lore skill covers that to some extent, but I was thinking more along the lines of remembering events/places/things that their prior incarnations would know. I know in the rules they mention things like Circles coming together that are formed because of relationships with prior incarnations, so that seems like something that might work. Is there something already in the game along those lines, or do you think it'd weaken the Lore skill too much?
Quote from: Werekoala;790345Want to throw this out for anyone who wants to answer: since there is SO damn much background in the setting, which I love and have spent two weeks reading, I was thinking of implementing a mechanic where the players can spend one or more motes of Essence to "remember" things when the players need or want more info, rather than having them try to read up on thousands of years of history. I know the Lore skill covers that to some extent, but I was thinking more along the lines of remembering events/places/things that their prior incarnations would know. I know in the rules they mention things like Circles coming together that are formed because of relationships with prior incarnations, so that seems like something that might work. Is there something already in the game along those lines, or do you think it'd weaken the Lore skill too much?
IME Exalted is best where the past is kept mysterious and mostly obfuscated. Anything before the Scarlet Empress came to power should be like Atlantis before it feel beneath the waves or the green stoned cyclopean cities of Conan's Hyboria. Focus on the present and use the past to make the stuff in the present more exciting and dramatic.
PCs in Exalted don't know all that much history unless they are specialised historians or they are experienced Celestial Exalts that have made sense of the dreams and visions they have had from their past lives. The later was represented in game with the Past Lives Merit, found on page 27 of the Player's Guide. Everything the PCs are likely to know as from character creation is set out on a single page (pg 32) of the 1e rulebook. Its even written as an "in character" history so you can simply give it as a hand out.
Quote from: Werekoala;790345I just started running a 1st edition game, and for now since the characters are still "new" and learning what they can and cannot do, they're on the run, but it won't last long. They're already talking about plans to return and have a "chat" with a garrison of Realm soldiery and their Dragon-Blooded commander in the near future. So no, not shitty, or bleak, just a ramp-up period where the players AND characters are learning what they can and can't do. I think for a first-time group (and Exalted GM like me), it's a natural progression while we all learn the ropes. I'm sure they'll be blazing their 50-foot-tall anima and mowing down scores of soldiers before you know it. :)
That was in general and not just for exalted. Point I am saying is that if the setting is cherry gum drop happy you don't go out to make it bleak just because you see it uses the same system for dark depressing settings.
Edit: Grammar mistake.
Quote from: Snowman0147;790389That was in general and just for exalted. Point I am saying is that if the setting is cherry gum drop happy you don't go out to make it bleak just because you see it uses the same system for dark depressing settings.
Understood, and agreed. From my reading of the rules and setting of 1st edition, at least, it's clear that BEFORE the Exalted (players) returned, it was pretty bleak and dark (actually, stagnant, so maybe gray?), but now that they're baaaaaack - things will change. That's how I'm running it, and how the players are playing it. :)
Well, mostly - the one guy in the group who is taking the lead tends to enjoy power-hungry (if not -mad) characters, so it might end up kinda bleak before it's over, but for now, it's all good.
Quote from: Nexus;786648I haven't liked the direction Exalted has been going in since early 2ed. Its been becoming some kind of soapbox for the writers to lecture on the evils of whatever their particular socio economic or political hobgoblins are.
...Exalted has never not been this.
You only have to get a sense of Grabowski's political leanings and educational background to get a sense of why the game clearly wants you to despise the Guild despite it being one of the world's only mortal achievements.
Quote from: Lioness;790490...Exalted has never not been this.
You only have to get a sense of Grabowski's political leanings and educational background to get a sense of why the game clearly wants you to despise the Guild despite it being one of the world's only mortal achievements.
You can always tell something of a writer's biases when you read their work. Its practically unavoidable. But Exalted didn't beat you over the head with its politics/social justice in earlier incarnations.
Quote from: Lioness;790490You only have to get a sense of Grabowski's political leanings and educational background to get a sense of why the game clearly wants you to despise the Guild despite it being one of the world's only mortal achievements.
You don't need to read some one's political leanings to know that the guild is evil. They sell slaves to strange soul sucking beings. The fact they work in the slave market is evil enough, but to sell them to beings that can suck out your soul makes it even more evil. That is clear as fucking day with all of its cloudless blue sky.
Quote from: Snowman0147;790507You don't need to read some one's political leanings to know that the guild is evil.
Not what I'm saying.
His political leanings are a major factor in
why the Guild is presented as an evil mega corporation.
So the fact they do slavery at all isn't a indication that they are evil?
I think common sense had defeated you lioness.
No, no, no, you're still not getting it.
You're thinking of the Guild as a single organisation. The technology of the Age of Sorrows simply wouldn't allow one organisation to communicate or enforce its policy globally.
There's a reason its initial presentation allows you to overlook that and that's because the Guild is a representation of the capitalist system that doesn't make distinctions between the guy running a sweatshop that makes t-shirts in Bangladesh and the person who sells them in the high street like they're equally culpable for the human suffering. It's all the Guild and the Guild is bad.
Trying to treat them like one of the major game antagonists felt particularly heavy-handed, because they're up there with omnicidal maniacs and creatures that want to collapse the whole world back into chaos without their own exalts to stand against you.
I tried the whole fight the Guild thing once, it was most unsatisfying dealing with enemies against whom your attack roll was mostly a formality to see how unrecognisable the corpse would be, but I digress!
Essentially Nexus and myself are people who presumably hold different values and have thus felt that different writers were being rather sanctimonious at different times.
Quote from: Lioness;790525Not what I'm saying.
His political leanings are a major factor in why the Guild is presented as an evil mega corporation.
Quote from: Snowman0147;790527So the fact they do slavery at all isn't a indication that they are evil?
I think common sense had defeated you lioness.
More like, the fact that the Guild are a commercial entity is WHY they're evil slavers. ;)
I don't know if Grabowski is the guy who came up with that Page 10 blurb in 1st Edition saying "Do not believe what the scientists tell you" but I sure wouldn't be surprised. :D
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;790268"Social Justice Warrior." Or what Pundit accurately calls "psuedo-Activists" in the sense that they're agitated over social issues that don't actually matter.
jg
Actually, that's a bit backwards. The issues are real, what's "pseudo" is their interest/dedication in those issues, rather than just waving those issues as a banner to pursue some agenda of personal interest, fashionability, or to get to wield those issues as a bludgeon against anyone they dislike.
Quote from: RPGPundit;790805Actually, that's a bit backwards. The issues are real, what's "pseudo" is their interest/dedication in those issues, rather than just waving those issues as a banner to pursue some agenda of personal interest, fashionability, or to get to wield those issues as a bludgeon against anyone they dislike.
Well, stuff like "insensitive" gender language as opposed to legal persecutions of trans people, for instance.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;790638More like, the fact that the Guild are a commercial entity is WHY they're evil slavers. ;)
Which is bat shit crazy. Capitalism does not equal evil. Are their some companies that would do that shit? Oh hell yes, but you don't call a entire economy system evil just because evil assholes use that. Evil assholes will use any thing to do evil shit. Look what happen to communism. Looks all good on paper, but evil assholes fuck that system up to no end.
The Guild isn't evil because they are capitalists. They are evil because of their actions. Other wise you might as well call anyone that sells food evil as well because they are doing capitalism. Sorry I just cannot look at a farmer who never uses slaves and a slave merchant as two evil beings. One is being a honest merchant of food and the other is a evil asshole.
A farmer with no slaves in the Age of Sorrows is probably only producing food at subsistence level.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;732805So I'm new.
But what the hell is up with Exalted 3? Its been 6 months since they even had a development schedule up. It's apparently ok to just blow your deadline and then say "yeah we aren't even bothering with deadlines anymore." What the Fuck?!
I mean if your contractor did that you would flip the fuck out.
Even worse is that rpg.net has several of the writers as moderators. So I really dont think asking anything over there will go well. I've tried to contact people through kickstarter messenger and all Rob said was essentially "making RPG's is hard!"
I know making RPG's isn't easy but fuck! Works of philosophy, history, and hard science have been written in less time than you claim to have been working on this fucking thing.
God, it feels good to get that out.
New to the hobby?
Still waiting for Changeling: Book of Glamour, myself.
Quote from: TristramEvans;791338New to the hobby?
Still waiting for Changeling: Book of Glamour, myself.
Nope, I've been around awhile. :) I'm still pretty new here.
By the way its been over year since they had a schedule up and still show no signs of actually having one.
According to the latest update the its all out for editing now, which raises the question of why cant you give a schedule if its all out for editing? I don't know. But hopefully our glorious developers will be kind enough to grace us with the thing we payed for sometime soon.
Honestly, I'm expecting it first quarter of next year.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;791573Honestly, I'm expecting it first quarter of next year.
There is also art still to be done, but that doesn't sound like a bad estimate. I think that even if it went to the printers now it wouldn't be here for Christmas.
Quote from: Manic Modron;791628There is also art still to be done, but that doesn't sound like a bad estimate. I think that even if it went to the printers now it wouldn't be here for Christmas.
I generally agree. I think the pdf will be out in the first quarter and the printed books should be delivered by the end of the second. That's my guess at this stage. Assuming they truly are done writing the thing.
Sweet Zombie Jesus, the Exalted fanbase is utterly run by the Outrage brigade, The kickstarter art reveal turned almost immediately in an sexism/feminism debate with gems like "having breasts doesn't determine gender".
I wonder if the guy that made the comment about getting the Empress a Thighmaster will catch a warning or even a ban.
Well of course, haven't you been keeping up? "Gender" is a heteronormative patriarchal meme invented to maintain control of the oppressed. "Gender" is whatever an individual says it is, it is fluid, and can not only change on a dime but exist in multiple planes at the same time.
That said, link that thing so I can take a look. Gamergate barely got my heart rate up, I need more outrage.
It started in the Exalted-Ask the Developers thread at post 2513 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?733370-Exalted-Ask-the-Developers/page252)
Quote from: Werekoala;792282"Gender" is whatever an individual says it is, it is fluid, and can not only change on a dime but exist in multiple planes at the same time.
You mean the fancy quantum-gender, right?! :D
And as to the art...looking at the picture with the Empress i say it's debatable if that person kneeling really is a woman. I don't think that grey bulge is a breast as it seems the clothes are not all grey, that black is part of the figure if you ask me. Otherwise the artist should take another lesson in anatomy and perspective.
Anyway, as always with such things...much ado about nothing.
Quote from: James Gillen;790638More like, the fact that the Guild are a commercial entity is WHY they're evil slavers. ;)
I don't know if Grabowski is the guy who came up with that Page 10 blurb in 1st Edition saying "Do not believe what the scientists tell you" but I sure wouldn't be surprised. :D
JG
"Don't believe what the scientists tell you" is basically just a reference to the fact that Exalted, being (at the time) the prehistory of the WoD, does not map to what scientific recorded history would have you believe. It was meant to be something akin to the Howardian "In the days before Atlantis sank..." It's not meant to be a real admonition that science is bunk or a reflection on Grabowski's personal beliefs.
As for capitalism and Exalted, remember that Exalted is a game where a network of financial transactions and economic efforts are literally what keep the gibbering hordes from beyond reality at bay. It's not an anti-capitalist game, and the fact that the Guild are slavers has more to do with the economic reality of the setting than the fact that "the Guild is bad" or "slavery is a way to taint somebody in-setting so we're making the Guild slavers."
OTOH, across the whole length of the game line's history, some writers and editors have been better than others about getting things right or catching them when they're wrong. But I'll say that this edition's editors are at least willing to consult others about things like welfare systems and slave economies in the real world and how they'd work in Exalted, and how that affects price lists and the like.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;792366As for capitalism and Exalted, remember that Exalted is a game where a network of financial transactions and economic efforts are literally what keep the gibbering hordes from beyond reality at bay. It's not an anti-capitalist game, and the fact that the Guild are slavers has more to do with the economic reality of the setting than the fact that "the Guild is bad" or "slavery is a way to taint somebody in-setting so we're making the Guild slavers."
Hence one of the other ironies of Exalted being "taken over by the Outrage Brigade": One of the recurring premises of Fantasy is that most societies are not run as inclusive parliamentary democracies with any sensitivity to gender or ethnic minorities. The exceptions would be mainly the kind of literature that inspired the
Blue Rose RPG.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;792492Hence one of the other ironies of Exalted being "taken over by the Outrage Brigade": One of the recurring premises of Fantasy is that most societies are not run as inclusive parliamentary democracies with any sensitivity to gender or ethnic minorities. The exceptions would be mainly the kind of literature that inspired the Blue Rose RPG.
JG
This. So This. A world of savage (but politically correct, gender sensitive adventure). just doesn't have the same snap.
Quote from: Anglachel;792354You mean the fancy quantum-gender, right?! :D
And as to the art...looking at the picture with the Empress i say it's debatable if that person kneeling really is a woman. I don't think that grey bulge is a breast as it seems the clothes are not all grey, that black is part of the figure if you ask me. Otherwise the artist should take another lesson in anatomy and perspective.
Anyway, as always with such things...much ado about nothing.
Like pretty much everything else you see from the bunch its about scoring SJ points and proving one's purity and dedication to the cause. That whole thing started because one guy said he thought part of the Empress picture made her look overweight and he made a joke about it. Then the Outrage Brigade started to earn it reputation. All the classics showed in short order: the Holier than thou condemnation, the far to shocked to be real outrage followed the dog pile and refusal to accept any accord except groveling submission to "right" opinion. I wonder if Icarr will catch some kind of Mod action.
I admit I do want to see the "problematic" image.
Quote from: Nexus;792500This. So This. A world of savage (but politically correct, gender sensitive adventure). just doesn't have the same snap.
Like pretty much everything else you see from the bunch its about scoring SJ points and proving one's purity and dedication to the cause. That whole thing started because one guy said he thought part of the Empress picture made her look overweight and he made a joke about it. Then the Outrage Brigade started to earn it reputation. All the classics showed in short order: the Holier than thou condemnation, the far to shocked to be real outrage followed the dog pile and refusal to accept any accord except groveling submission to "right" opinion. I wonder if Icarr will catch some kind of Mod action.
I admit I do want to see the "problematic" image.
Wasn't it posted on the updates for kickstarter? If its the one I was think it was, its the Empress knighting someone from the throne.
Quote from: Nexus;792500Like pretty much everything else you see from the bunch its about scoring SJ points and proving one's purity and dedication to the cause. That whole thing started because one guy said he thought part of the Empress picture made her look overweight and he made a joke about it. Then the Outrage Brigade started to earn it reputation. All the classics showed in short order: the Holier than thou condemnation, the far to shocked to be real outrage followed the dog pile and refusal to accept any accord except groveling submission to "right" opinion. I wonder if Icarr will catch some kind of Mod action.
I admit I do want to see the "problematic" image.
Type 2 diabetes is no joke. Diabetes with Exalted disease rules is even worse.
JG
Quote from: Starglyte;792504Wasn't it posted on the updates for kickstarter? If its the one I was think it was, its the Empress knighting someone from the throne.
Yep. It was a kickstarter teaser/update. Her Redness has a dress with a split up the leg, another problematic element.
Quote from: James Gillen;792506Type 2 diabetes is no joke. Diabetes with Exalted disease rules is even worse.
JG
The seeming real life "Cult of the Empress" is another part of Exalted fanbase I never got. It reminds of the old World of Darkness days when the NPCs were supposed to be far more cool, powerful interesting and important than those silly buffoons the players created.
Pic here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/741/933/89fd7141275a2abe7925cba46c4dce1b_large.jpg?1413332383
For the record, I think it's a woman kneeling, Ketchup is in the background, and yes, Red has a fat thigh.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;792523Pic here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/741/933/89fd7141275a2abe7925cba46c4dce1b_large.jpg?1413332383
For the record, I think it's a woman kneeling, Ketchup is in the background, and yes, Red has a fat thigh.
Thank you!
Yeah, I think the supplicant is a women (or pretty darn effeminate man). As for the fat thigh thing, I think the artist was going for muscular or athletic and didn't quite pull of it so I can see why someone would read it as plump. I also don't see her gown as "slinky" or even that provocative given the nature of the setting. It shows a little leg in certain positions, its not like it slit up to waist and about to give away all her secrets at the slightest motion. I could see that causing some concern but what she has now? Not really. I've seen many women wear similar things at formal parties and, given that she's supposed to be social powerhouse why wouldn't she wear flattering clothing. Her appearance and sexuality would be one of the tools in her kit.
Honestly, I wouldn't have a big issue if it was slinky aside from it seeming out of context considering the rest of the picture which seems formal and ritualistic. If it depicted a more relaxed social gathering or something. Why not? For that matter not all cultures had the same nudity taboos as the modern western world.
Because social justice types feed on their own without a better target.
Yeah, the thigh is big, but what bothers me more is the hip attachment. Whether it's a woman or man kneeling, good lord is that a wide ass. Just very bad body proportion work overall.
Quote from: CRKrueger;792526Yeah, the thigh is big, but what bothers me more is the hip attachment. Whether it's a woman or man kneeling, good lord is that a wide ass. Just very bad body proportion work overall.
It doesn't help the the kneeling figure is on one knee, with the other extended. That doesn't match the pose given the posture. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, it'll either get pulled with some bs explanation or forgotten when something else comes along.
It's really not a bad piece, but I'm a cis shit, so my opinion doesn't matter.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;792523Pic here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/741/933/89fd7141275a2abe7925cba46c4dce1b_large.jpg?1413332383
For the record, I think it's a woman kneeling, Ketchup is in the background, and yes, Red has a fat thigh.
I'd hit it.
Quote from: James Gillen;792492Hence one of the other ironies of Exalted being "taken over by the Outrage Brigade": One of the recurring premises of Fantasy is that most societies are not run as inclusive parliamentary democracies with any sensitivity to gender or ethnic minorities. The exceptions would be mainly the kind of literature that inspired the Blue Rose RPG.
JG
You can have a gender-balanced society which is also full of exploitative dicks. That's pretty much the basis for the Realm -- you have a society run by a woman, where women possess slightly more political and economic power than men, and yet it's still full of evil spoilers who are raiding the Threshold like there's no tomorrow, where it's effectively a slave state run on the back of conquered peoples, and where social class is an extreme limiter on someone's outcomes unless an accident of genetic gives them mystic superpowers.
Also, the term "ethnic minorities" is pretty meaningless in Creation, as it would be in real world Antiquity. Modern notions of race are products of slavery and the New World. On the other hand, the ancient world was more than happy to find ways to divide one another up and use it as a reason to split each other's skulls without dividing one another up based on which part of the color wheel one belonged to.
The Egyptians enslaving the Hebrews, the Hebrews enslaving crap tons of others, the Romans enslaving fucking everybody. Yeah, pretty sure race and religion was the basis for most of that crap, so it's hardly a New World (let's be honest and just say white) idea to separate folks along those lines.
EDIT: Just to throw a few more in there, the Persians, Babylonians, Greeks, Byzantines, Chinese, Mongols, etc. It usually boils down to, you are us/civilized/speak our language/couldn't fight back. Most of which is racism, except that last one, and even them, an argument can be made.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;792631The Egyptians enslaving the Hebrews, the Hebrews enslaving crap tons of others, the Romans enslaving fucking everybody. Yeah, pretty sure race and religion was the basis for most of that crap, so it's hardly a New World (let's be honest and just say white) idea to separate folks along those lines.
EDIT: Just to throw a few more in there, the Persians, Babylonians, Greeks, Byzantines, Chinese, Mongols, etc. It usually boils down to, you are us/civilized/speak our language/couldn't fight back. Most of which is racism, except that last one, and even them, an argument can be made.
It really wasn't that simple in antiquity. Race wasn't a factor at all, most became slaves through war, piracy or debt. Anyone could be a slave, nor was anyone condemned to slavery for life, simply because of the colour of their skin.
There are different kinds of slavery, I'd suggest you read up on the differences before making those sorts of assertions.
Quote from: Werekoala;792558I'd hit it.
That was my first thought, too.
Quote from: Kiero;792635It really wasn't that simple in antiquity. Race wasn't a factor at all, most became slaves through war, piracy or debt. Anyone could be a slave, nor was anyone condemned to slavery for life, simply because of the colour of their skin.
There are different kinds of slavery, I'd suggest you read up on the differences before making those sorts of assertions.
(http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/04/Putin-Laughing-gif.gif)
OK. I'm gonna give this one to you, just because I don't think we'd agree, and it's not important enough to wrapped around the axle over.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;792523Pic here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/741/933/89fd7141275a2abe7925cba46c4dce1b_large.jpg?1413332383
For the record, I think it's a woman kneeling, Ketchup is in the background, and yes, Red has a fat thigh.
So the SJWs are against BBWs.
JG
Quote from: Future Villain Band;792564Also, the term "ethnic minorities" is pretty meaningless in Creation, as it would be in real world Antiquity.
Well, that's kinda my point. They're judging historical recreations and outright fantasy realms on the basis of 21st Century college mores. :D
JG
I'm very interested in watching the coming tap dancing the developers are going to have to do with their particular fanbase over things like this.
It blows my mind how the "new" Exalted team is using the brand to bring in people but apparently completely expect everyone to act like the previous editions didn't happen. Because of the new design team which contains a good number of people that worked on the earlier editions.
It's like opening a restaurant in the same location producing the same food under the same name and some of the same staff as one closed for health code violations then wondering why customers are leery.
Can you show us some examples please?
Quote from: Snowman0147;792850Can you show us some examples please?
Well, most recently, one of the development team was too happy about some of the commentary about the art teaser.
Quote from: Richt;18408408To push the point we've been pushing since announcing this, and sorry if us saying this over and over is annoying: different creative team. Different Devs, different art director. Different intentions with the business model. To compare the S&S cover to this throne room illustration, is, well, mind-boggling.
Will we pay heed to the opinions of folks here and on other forums in terms of the art? Yes, when it makes sense and works with our vision for the game. Just like the writing.
Thanks!
Someone else objects
Quote from: Fresh Ninja;18408415You can't expect to use the Exalted brand to get people to fork over money while at the same time expecting people not to remembers its history. THAT is mind-boggling.
And the defensiveness starts.
Quote from: Paradim;18408454Really not seeing how this is productive.
Quote from: MemoryBeast;18408474The fact that Rich T. took the time to read the thread and note the problems people had with the picture matters more to me than what does or does not boggle his mind. I'm well aware that it's a completely new set of designers, and I wouldn't have contributed to the KS if I didn't trust them to learn from the mistakes of the past, and to respond to feedback from the fans. They've demonstrated their willingness to do both many times.
And I hardly think its over.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;792523Pic here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/741/933/89fd7141275a2abe7925cba46c4dce1b_large.jpg?1413332383
For the record, I think it's a woman kneeling, Ketchup is in the background, and yes, Red has a fat thigh.
Why is the D&D Tiamat in an Exalted illo?
Quote from: Planet Algol;792860Why is the D&D Tiamat in an Exalted illo?
Its the Imperial Throne. IIRC, it moves and won't anyone but her Redness sit in it including the current Regent, in place since the Empress vanished.
That's cool and all, but I guess it must be an Easter egg with the white, black, blue, green and red dragon heads.
I hadn't heard that but the resemblance is there and they do like Easter eggs
Quote from: Planet Algol;792868That's cool and all, but I guess it must be an Easter egg with the white, black, blue, green and red dragon heads.
It's got an in-setting explanation (the Five Elemental Dragons) but the choice of color is too appropriate to be a coincidence.
Kudos for the artist for the D&D shout-out. Here's looking forward to the day he or she'll learn how the hip joint works.
Quote from: Planet Algol;792868That's cool and all, but I guess it must be an Easter egg with the white, black, blue, green and red dragon heads.
Sorry if I was over explaining (mansplaining?). I didn't know if you were into Exalted at all. And I admit, I do like the Imperial Throne as far as imagery goes.
Quote from: Planet Algol;792868That's cool and all, but I guess it must be an Easter egg with the white, black, blue, green and red dragon heads.
The colours represent the five elements of the Five Element Dragons: Air - Blue, Earth - White, Fire - Red, Water - Black, Wood - Green. I am guessing its more happy coincidence than an easter egg.
This cover art for Scroll of Exalts is more the D&D easter egg you are looking for:
(http://th06.deviantart.net/fs45/PRE/f/2009/145/8/7/Scroll_of_the_Exalts_Cover_by_UdonCrew.jpg)
:D
Quote from: Skywalker;792929The colours represent the five elements of the Five Element Dragons: Air - Blue, Earth - White, Fire - Red, Water - Black, Wood - Green. I am guessing its more happy coincidence than an easter egg.
This cover art for Scroll of Exalts is more the D&D easter egg you are looking for:
(http://th06.deviantart.net/fs45/PRE/f/2009/145/8/7/Scroll_of_the_Exalts_Cover_by_UdonCrew.jpg)
:D
Ok, that's just cool.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;792631The Egyptians enslaving the Hebrews, the Hebrews enslaving crap tons of others, the Romans enslaving fucking everybody. Yeah, pretty sure race and religion was the basis for most of that crap, so it's hardly a New World (let's be honest and just say white) idea to separate folks along those lines.
Roman slavery had nothing to do with race or religion. Nor did Egyptian. The Hebrews were slaved because they were a conquered people, not because they were ethnically different.
Primary sources bear out that "racial slavery," wherein the different ethnicities and tribal groups are grouped into "races" in order to provide a justification for a race based caste system, is fairly recent, historically speaking. You don't see that stuff until the Spanish and Portuguese first start it in order to justify transporting African slaves to the New World because the local Indian tribes didn't work to their specifications.
QuoteEDIT: Just to throw a few more in there, the Persians, Babylonians, Greeks, Byzantines, Chinese, Mongols, etc. It usually boils down to, you are us/civilized/speak our language/couldn't fight back. Most of which is racism, except that last one, and even them, an argument can be made.
No, that's not racism at all. Tribalism and differences in language have nothing to do with modern day conceptions of "race." The Mongols didn't use a stratification based on modern racial groups, which is why they conquered everybody under the sun. They had a traditional tribal viewpoint, which is "us versus everybody else," hence things like their trying to stave off cultural corruption when they were running the Yuan dynasty.
If you're going to build a fantastic antiquity and want to make it so that women can fight just like men, you really just need to guarantee a solid source of protein to the whole populace and then create a justification where female martial virtues are going to prized. Give it a hundred years or so, and the main limitations to female effectiveness (barring pregnancy) are going to disappear. We have women in militaries today and we're a hundred year out from worldwide female disenfranchisement and second-class citizenship. We haven't even done any selective breeding for it. Imagine what would happen if you did choose the muscular, tall wife over the skinny one. It's basically a matter of time, good food, and favoring women built like Gina Torres over Kate Moss. (Which I do anyway.)
Race is even easier to ignore, because like I said, it's a product of the 15th century and the need for cheap labor because the Church said you couldn't enslave Christians. Imagine a world like the one Julian the Apostate wrote in, where race isn't an issue, and differences in religion are basically down to marketing except for the zealots (and Zealots), and you've got it.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;792366"Don't believe what the scientists tell you" is basically just a reference to the fact that Exalted, being (at the time) the prehistory of the WoD, does not map to what scientific recorded history would have you believe. It was meant to be something akin to the Howardian "In the days before Atlantis sank..." It's not meant to be a real admonition that science is bunk or a reflection on Grabowski's personal beliefs.
Except of course that not long before that, you had games like the oWoD Mage and Werewolf that were anti-science, anti-technology, and anti-civilization too.
So I do think that WW has a definite editorial bias in its settings; a product of having been run by a bunch of Arts majors (and would-be "artistes") that felt a serious inferiority complex toward STEM, I'd suspect.
Quote from: James Gillen;792492Hence one of the other ironies of Exalted being "taken over by the Outrage Brigade": One of the recurring premises of Fantasy is that most societies are not run as inclusive parliamentary democracies with any sensitivity to gender or ethnic minorities. The exceptions would be mainly the kind of literature that inspired the Blue Rose RPG.
JG
No, the literature that inspired Blue Rose generally features Benign Autocracies (often Monarchies) that rule with absolute power to decide what's 'best' for the citizens, run by a group of Special People (sometimes literally, as in Magical People who are Inherently Good, but not always) who are better than other people and therefore have the right to rule.
The Outrage Brigade usually doesn't believe in democracy, because it doesn't believe that most people know what's best for running their own lives, they're too stupid or uneducated or have 'internalized patriarchy' or whatever. They believe very strongly in the Divine Right of Kings, as long as they get to be the Kings.
Also, the Romans didn't "enslave fucking everybody". They had slaves, but they also had a system where in spite of not being born in Rome you could, by MERIT alone, end up becoming a citizen of the empire with all the same rights as any other citizen, and even come to hold high office.
Plus, as FVB pointed out, their slavery system had nothing to do with race. You could be a Rome-born Italian of pure blood and be a slave. And in a certain period, you could be the great-grandson of a barbarian chief and end up being a Senator.
Well, in Spartacus, the Romans DID crucify fucking everybody.
JG
I wouldn't go to tv shows for any actual historical knowledge. Hell can't even do that for History and Discovery channels any more.
well, when I took Latin damn near thirty years ago I was told that, at the end of the Spartacus revolt the Romans did, in fact, fucking crucify everyone.
Hence the old but still popular trope "I am Spartacus!"
Quote from: Spike;793966well, when I took Latin damn near thirty years ago I was told that, at the end of the Spartacus revolt the Romans did, in fact, fucking crucify everyone.
Hence the old but still popular trope "I am Spartacus!"
That trail of crucifixions happened. Thousands of people along the Appian Way. But Pundit is correct, Roman slavery was a very different institution from ours. That doesn't mean it was pretty (being forced to work in the mines for example could be a death sentence). But the imperial bureaucracy in the early empire was made up almost entirely of the emperor's slaves and freemen. Manumission was possible and you could theoretically climb the social ladder after having been born a slave (not that it was easy or the deck wasn't heavily stacked against you).
And just to be clear, not endorsing Roman slavery. I think something like 30 percent or more of the Italian peninsula were slaves. But what people sometimes don't understand about the Romans is how deep slavery ran and that it wasn't identical to the slavery of the American south. They used slavery for everything (the way we use microwaves or cars). You had slaves for putting on peoples shoes, retrieving rolls at the libraries, copying texts, educating children, etc. It ran a wide range from menial tasks to jobs we would consider white collar. And wasn't based around race in the way slavery was in the US. Background could matter and slaves were taken as a product of conquest, but they didn't have the same notions about race that we do.
I'll give you the Romans were a bad example.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;794039I'll give you the Romans were a bad example.
Anybody who uses slavery is a bad example. Yes, in a lot of cases it was a necessity for a pre-industrial society, but that's why we should be glad we have an industrial society now.
JG
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;794008That trail of crucifixions happened. Thousands of people along the Appian Way. But Pundit is correct, Roman slavery was a very different institution from ours. That doesn't mean it was pretty (being forced to work in the mines for example could be a death sentence). But the imperial bureaucracy in the early empire was made up almost entirely of the emperor's slaves and freemen. Manumission was possible and you could theoretically climb the social ladder after having been born a slave (not that it was easy or the deck wasn't heavily stacked against you).
Well, yes.
What's your point? I mean, you quoted me responding to Snowman, who in turn was responding to John Wick. I mean, James Gillen. Now, to be perfectly honest, I don't know exactly what James was responding too, since I care about Exalted 3 about as much as you care about my non-existent bunions, but there you have it.
In other words: I have invested zero energy into worrying about Roman Era Slavery in regards to Exalted, but
Spartacus the TV show, showing the Romans crucifying fucking everyone is not rendered historically inaccurate simply because it is light entertainment. Which was my point. In its entirety.
Well yes the rebellion got that death sentence, but the TV shows it as some sentence that can handed out to everyone which is not true. Like medieval crossbows can't kill Christians law the Roman crucifixions was viewed too brutal to be done on roman citizens. If they did do crucifixions on citizens, then it is done on those that did the worst crimes such as starting a rebellion.
Quote from: Spike;794118Well, yes.
What's your point? I mean, you quoted me responding to Snowman, who in turn was responding to John Wick. I mean, James Gillen. Now, to be perfectly honest, I don't know exactly what James was responding too, since I care about Exalted 3 about as much as you care about my non-existent bunions, but there you have it.
In other words: I have invested zero energy into worrying about Roman Era Slavery in regards to Exalted, but Spartacus the TV show, showing the Romans crucifying fucking everyone is not rendered historically inaccurate simply because it is light entertainment. Which was my point. In its entirety.
I haven't seen the Spartacus TV show (I thought you were talking about the movie) so I can't comment on its accuracy. So I was just saying that yes, the trail of crucifixions at the end of the film are based on an actual thing that happened. Then I was commenting on the slavery discussion in the rest of my post (where a lot of issues around Roman slavery had been brought up).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;794152I haven't seen the Spartacus TV show (I thought you were talking about the movie) so I can't comment on its accuracy. So I was just saying that yes, the trail of crucifixions at the end of the film are based on an actual thing that happened. Then I was commenting on the slavery discussion in the rest of my post (where a lot of issues around Roman slavery had been brought up).
Specifically I was referring to the Kirk Douglas movie scripted by Dalton Trumbo, not the Starz series where characters spoke in Shakespearian accents but said stuff like "fuck" every sentence. ;)
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;794183Specifically I was referring to the Kirk Douglas movie scripted by Dalton Trumbo, not the Starz series where characters spoke in Shakespearian accents but said stuff like "fuck" every sentence. ;)
JG
Never made it past the first episode of the show, personally.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;794008That trail of crucifixions happened. Thousands of people along the Appian Way. But Pundit is correct, Roman slavery was a very different institution from ours. That doesn't mean it was pretty (being forced to work in the mines for example could be a death sentence). But the imperial bureaucracy in the early empire was made up almost entirely of the emperor's slaves and freemen. Manumission was possible and you could theoretically climb the social ladder after having been born a slave (not that it was easy or the deck wasn't heavily stacked against you).
And just to be clear, not endorsing Roman slavery. I think something like 30 percent or more of the Italian peninsula were slaves. But what people sometimes don't understand about the Romans is how deep slavery ran and that it wasn't identical to the slavery of the American south. They used slavery for everything (the way we use microwaves or cars). You had slaves for putting on peoples shoes, retrieving rolls at the libraries, copying texts, educating children, etc. It ran a wide range from menial tasks to jobs we would consider white collar. And wasn't based around race in the way slavery was in the US. Background could matter and slaves were taken as a product of conquest, but they didn't have the same notions about race that we do.
It should be noted that the Romans, by the late Republic/early Principate, had one of the highest densities of slaveholding of any society in antiquity. The wars of the 2nd and 1st centuries BC, particularly in Spain, Greece and latterly Gaul brought in a massive influx of slaves.
That's how you ended up with figures like a third of people in Italy being slaves, or later half of the population of Rome itself. No one before the Romans practised slavery on such an industrial scale, which is also why they didn't have revolts like the various Servile Wars the Romans faced.
But you're right, the ancient practise of slavery was little like that practised in the American South. Slaves had more rights and more importantly could buy their own freedom (with their own money that they were allowed to hold). There was no racial condition whereby anyone of a certain colour was assumed to be a slave and could be enslaved simply by being in the wrong place.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;794195Never made it past the first episode of the show, personally.
The first episode was pretty crap. It got a lot better later on, and the subsequent seasons were very good indeed.
Quote from: James Gillen;794183Specifically I was referring to the Kirk Douglas movie scripted by Dalton Trumbo, not the Starz series where characters spoke in Shakespearian accents but said stuff like "fuck" every sentence. ;)
JG
I think Spartacus was a great movie. Really well done. I wouldn't rely on it for historical accuracy though.
We don't get Starz. When the show first came out we started the first few episodes when we did get the channel but my wife hated it so much we stopped watching.
Accents and curse words don't bother me. I see picking accents as kind of an artistic choice. I, Claudius had the Romans speaking in modern English and that worked pretty well. I think Ben Hur made an interesting choice there, giving the Romans English accents and the people from the province of Judea American accents.
The Romans could be potty mouths when they wanted to so I think as long as they are not doing it in the Senate something, that is okay. Frankly though when I watch anything set in the Empire, I don't get my expectations high for historical accuracy. I am just happy to have something set in a period I like. I find film makers will often get some things quite right but other things quite wrong. In the end though I would rather see historical accuracy sacrificed for a good story than good story sacrificed for historical accuracy if there is a conflict between those two things. I used to pull out my hair watching historical movies and shows. I had a lot more fun when I stopped worrying about accuracy.
And the endless slow motion train wreck that is the Exalted-Ask the Developers thread continues.
Just as a suggestion: When a potential customers asks you a fairly simple question that could, could be read in a slightly negative fashion getting defensive, passive aggressive and huffy might not be the best reaction.
Quote from: Nexus;794803Just as a suggestion: When a potential customers asks you a fairly simple question that could, could be read in a slightly negative fashion getting defensive, passive aggressive and huffy might not be the best reaction.
See, that's the problem if you have 1 dot in Charisma and Appearance and also 0 dots in Presence, Socialize and especially in PR.
.
.
.
:eek:
:D
Role playing games are largely about communication so its always baffles me why so many become not only involved in them but professional in the "industry" that are so fucking bad at it.
Sometimes it seems like you take random people off the street and they'd be better at PR than some of the people in the gaming community. Artistic temperament, I guess.
Another Exalted thread has sprung up that people following this one might find interesting
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?745720-A-New-Year-Time-To-Give-Up-On-Exalted
Quote from: Nexus;807227Another Exalted thread has sprung up that people following this one might find interesting
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?745720-A-New-Year-Time-To-Give-Up-On-Exalted
*grabs marshmallows*
So, we have an anti-Exalted thread where the OP says there's some homophobia in the comic and someone else says the OP is reading to much into it?
No better way to start the new year.
"Exalted is not about shiny heroism."
WTF?!?!? I am disagreeing with that. If your playing solar you playing a shiny hero that is going to change the world. Your going to be riding mechs and destroying empires with your surf board size sword.
Quote from: Snowman0147;807235"Exalted is not about shiny heroism."
WTF?!?!? I am disagreeing with that. If your playing solar you playing a shiny hero that is going to change the world. Your going to be riding mechs and destroying empires with your surf board size sword.
Yup. A Solar-centric game is all about changing the world in the most grandiose way possible. However, I don't think I'm talking crazy that the Exalted setting as a whole reaches for the kitchen sink where the tone is concerned. Four-color fantasy supers rubs up against grimdark in plenty of places.
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, as it allows different kinds of game.
Quote from: Snowman0147;807235"Exalted is not about shiny heroism."
WTF?!?!? I am disagreeing with that. If your playing solar you playing a shiny hero that is going to change the world. Your going to be riding mechs and destroying empires with your surf board size sword.
OTOH, from what I've seen over the past decade-plus, RPGNet Exalted at least is deeply cynical and deconstructionist. It's more like
Watchmen than
All-Star Superman, for example.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;807248OTOH, from what I've seen over the past decade-plus, RPGNet Exalted at least is deeply cynical and deconstructionist. It's more like Watchmen than All-Star Superman, for example.
Yeah, so like JamesV says, there should be room for both. But again, it's a bit hard to be grim and gritty when the rules account for attuning a magic sword so that you can still wield it even though it's bigger than you are.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;807251... it's a bit hard to be grim and gritty when the rules account for attuning a magic sword so that you can still wield it even though it's bigger than you are.
JG
From my POV, I don't see those as mutually exclusive. Current Warhammer 40k, and the manga/anime Berzerk come to mind as examples where grim and gritty tones mixes with flamboyant visuals.
But you have a good point that's important to keep in mind with Exalted's rules vs. the setting. The rules are aimed at "fantasy supers" (always been the way I can describe them anyway),
but the setting is kitchen-sink, with different tones and approaches possible.
A quote from the esteemed Stephen Lea Sheppard on cultural appropriation in gaming.
QuoteDude, I edit Exalted. I'm not sure anyone is more unnerved than I am at the prospect that there may, in fact, be no ethical way for me to pursue my hobby.
As long as you aren't plagiarizing another game, making a game that includes people and cultures that don't line up with your own isn't appropriation, you bloody moron.
But if it really bothers you Stephen, stop working on Exalted, and write what you know. I'm sure there's an untapped market for an rpg where you play a failed child actor. Maybe you could get Macaulay Culkin to consult on it.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;807248OTOH, from what I've seen over the past decade-plus, RPGNet Exalted at least is deeply cynical and deconstructionist. It's more like Watchmen than All-Star Superman, for example.
This is very true. Big Purple has drifted Exalted's 'big damn heroes' 1e tone over to a LGBT Game of Thrones. Then 2e kind of cemented that and with 3e, since the patients are now running the asylum, I'm assuming there will be a strong push/continuance to anti-heroes.
Quote from: Ian Noble;807285This is very true. Big Purple has drifted Exalted's 'big damn heroes' 1e tone over to a LGBT Game of Thrones. Then 2e kind of cemented that and with 3e, since the patients are now running the asylum, I'm assuming there will be a strong push/continuance to anti-heroes.
Is that the case? I definitely could have missed it as I am a straight-up 1e guy. I bought the core rules for 2e, but it wasn't my thing so I didn't follow it much further.
It would be a shame if they didn't keep the setting's tone more open. In the 1e grand campaign, I ran a long time ago, I was able to swing both Big Damn Heroes, and GoT when I needed to, and it didn't stick out setting-wise.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;807270A quote from the esteemed Stephen Lea Sheppard on cultural appropriation in gaming.
QuoteDude, I edit Exalted. I'm not sure anyone is more unnerved than I am at the prospect that there may, in fact, be no ethical way for me to pursue my hobby.
As long as you aren't plagiarizing another game, making a game that includes people and cultures that don't line up with your own isn't appropriation, you bloody moron.
But if it really bothers you Stephen, stop working on Exalted, and write what you know. I'm sure there's an untapped market for an rpg where you play a failed child actor. Maybe you could get Macaulay Culkin to consult on it.
Yeah, i also stumbled over that whole thread. Oh boy. I mean there are so many whiny bitches in that thread...i mean come one...we are talking about games of make-belief.
And if someone wants to take offense with your game he/she always can. Always. So stop overthinking everything and just write the game YOU want to write and play.
Sometimes i wish i had their problems...as it seems they have no more serious problems than to think their games are that important and need to make a statement with their design/world/game.
Please!
Get a life.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Stephen Lea Sheppard;18612357The concern being expressed here is that certain elements of human biology lead to semi-inevitable oppression of women on both a micro- and macro-scale unless glossed over or otherwise dealt with -- witness how, in my example above, the solution for getting out of the consequences of an unwanted school pregnancy without chemical abortifacents for a female student is "Induce abortion some other way," which is unpleasant but at least a choice the student makes for herself, while the solution for getting out of the consequences of an unwanted school pregnancy for a male student is... "Induce abortion some other way," still, possibly without the mother's consent. That is some casual violence against women right there. This extends to every other element of the setting, from the practicality of women serving in armies to the practicality of women having full autonomy w/regards to how sexually active they want to be.
Other games handwave it, which is fine, but Exalted can't get away with handwaving that because Exalted doesn't handwave economics or logistics. Instead, Ex1 introduce cheap, reliable, universally available herbal birth control, inspired by the actual silphium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium), which was (allegedly, depending on who you ask) a reliable herbal abortifacent available to the Romans which they made extinct through overuse.
What I see here is the beginning of the expression of fear that by removing maiden tea as a silphium-equivalent without considering the repercussions, we are adjusting the setting to be much less female-PC-friendly and otherwise much more inevitably filled with sexual violence against women, once you get into the logistics of how pregnancy works. That is, it introduces more conflict into the setting, but the conflict it introduces is not fun to engage with.
However, as I said above, "unreliable" maiden tea is unreliable on the level of conventional birth control, not on the level of a toss-up. The game mechanics for maiden tea, regardless of what variety you buy, are "One dose monthly for contraception, two doses at once during a pregnancy as an abortifacent, three doses at once at any time for sterility, four doses are fatal." The unreliability of the cheaper versions exists on a larger context of statistical measurements and economic supply and demand.
Quote from: Stephen Lea Sheppard;18612508No problem! It's something I've been thinking about since we introduced the idea of varieties of maiden tea with different levels of reliability -- "Did we screw up here?" I don't think we did.
Quote from: ADamiani;18612597To the extent that it actually functions like you describe (comparing it specifically to condoms, which have an 86% failure rate over ten years of typical use), it's a hugely problematic change that transforms Creation from a generally sex-positive place (on net) to a horror-show where dynasts are apparently worried about how they'll procure illegal abortions from providers who are afraid for their lives (per the examples above)-- with a whole chain of knock-on societal effects, for no real gain that I can discern.
.... but I don't expect it will be actually written like that, because I don't think that's what you actually intend. Word of God is a tricky thing!
This last bit seems like an over reaction to me.
Actually, I'm glad they put so much thought concerning female reproductive rights into the Exalted setting. It gladdens the heart to know that my Exalt doesn't have to worry about undesired children...oh wait, my Exalt is male, and he doesn't get the choice.
Although I seem to remember that ODing on maiden tea will sterilize a male as well, so at least you have that option.
With all the cultural stigma that comes with it.
Every now and then, I see a fresh reason to thank God I never followed through on my early interest in Exalted.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;807445Every now and then, I see a fresh reason to thank God I never followed through on my early interest in Exalted.
Their Exalted has not been, and never will be my Exalted.
Meh. Don't bother with varying strengths, just add "restricts access to maiden tea" to the list of things the evil territories do. Job done.
I'd let it have the same reliable-contraception effect on males, though, even if it is a bit too much of a concession to the MRA brigade.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;807444oh wait, my Exalt is male, and he doesn't get the choice.
Unless he's mind-controlled and forced to have sex against his will, he has plenty of choice; do sex / do not do sex.
Although I will accept that "force woman to carry child she does not want to, with appropriate health risks" is another thing we can add to the "evil" list.
Quote from: Stephen Lea Sheppard;612597test
test post
Quote from: Warboss Squee;807448Their Exalted has not been, and never will be my Exalted.
No shit. That kind of hand-wringing is ludicrous. How hard would have this been?
"We added a reliable herbal contraceptive to the game."
or,
"We didn't add a reliable contraceptive to the game, but if you want one for your game, rock on. If you're interested, here's more about a historically known one. *shares Wikipedia link to Silphium*."
The rest is ridiculously unnecessary.
Quote from: Ladybird;807451I'd let it have the same reliable-contraception effect on males, though, even if it is a bit too much of a concession to the MRA brigade.
Unless he's mind-controlled and forced to have sex against his will, he has plenty of choice; do sex / do not do sex.
Men can be raped, drugged or intoxicated and forced to sire children against their will.
But the reason for adding incredibly effective, easily available birth control was to give female characters a degree of sexual freedom that they don't "realistically" have in low tech environments even though they have the same choice: don't want kids, don't have sex though there is the prospect of rape (which exists for men). They could just not have sex, turn to lesbianism or take the risk that so many women decide to take historically.
Men in modern settings can use condoms but there is a loss of som degree of pleasure and spontaneity, of course. So a drug that could control male fertility would be nice and give male characters an option besides celibacy or homosexuality*
Why is catering to one, well, fantasy, worthwhile and the other "bowing to much to MRAs" and putting in a wonderfully effective contraceptive for qwomen so they don't have to worry about unwanted children not "bowing to much to feminist types"?
*Of course both sexes have the option of non reproductive sex acts but going into that much detail is probably too much for allot of games.
Quote from: Ladybird;807451Meh. Don't bother with varying strengths, just add "restricts access to maiden tea" to the list of things the evil territories do. Job done.
I'd let it have the same reliable-contraception effect on males, though, even if it is a bit too much of a concession to the MRA brigade.
Unless he's mind-controlled and forced to have sex against his will, he has plenty of choice; do sex / do not do sex.
I assume rape culture and The Patriarchy is why this is a male only choice.
I just read that shit and I am still wondering why that developer still has her job. Okay all that info isn't going into any game that I know of and if it does go into a game I feel sorry for those players. Not even World of Darkness chats do this kind of crap. They just have no reproduction while still allow sex and ban rape.
Quote from: Nexus;807457Men can be raped, drugged or intoxicated and forced to sire children against their will.
...all of which would also be on the List of Evil Activities.
Quote from: Ladybird;807467...all of which would also be on the List of Evil Activities.
But why putting a setting element that allows women nearly unfettered sexual expression is fine but extending it to men is bowing to soo called MRAs when both have the same options if its not allow (don't have reproductive sex)?
Quote from: Ian Noble;807285This is very true. Big Purple has drifted Exalted's 'big damn heroes' 1e tone over to a LGBT Game of Thrones. Then 2e kind of cemented that and with 3e, since the patients are now running the asylum, I'm assuming there will be a strong push/continuance to anti-heroes.
It would be COOL as an LGBT Game of Thrones, and the reason it isn't that is touched upon by the Stephenls quote Nexus posted about "maiden tea" in Exalted. These guys would think that Blue Rose isn't politically correct enough.
JG
Quote from: Nexus;807468But why
It was a throwaway joke about Exalted's agendaist nature.
Seriously, I'd just have it work the same way on everyone.
Quote from: Ladybird;807472It was a throwaway joke about Exalted's agendaist nature.
Seriously, I'd just have it work the same way on everyone.
Fair enough. its hard to determine tone sometimes. Thanks
I have never played Exalted, but based upon internet conversations it seems to be a game about sex, rape, abortions, more rape and yet more rape.
It seems to be the Storyteller System's version of F.A.T.A.L. But with people taking it seriously.
Quote from: jadrax;807486It seems to be the Storyteller System's version of F.A.T.A.L. But with people taking it seriously.
You know what is sad? That isn't so far from the truth. Some one should convince CCP to sell the IPs they own so Onyx Path won't touch it. Seriously look at what they done to Exalted. It used to be heroes who are chosen of the gods doing major things in the world and now even F.A.T.A.L. is laughing at Exalted in its grave. Thanks Onyx Path you fucking ruined Exalted. Please do not touch Scion because you done enough.
Well, you're out of luck, Snowman. They do do (no pun intended ;) ) the new Scion.
BUT: It's not the same Dev. Team. So there is still a chance Scion 2 will not be the same overwrought SJW BS that Exalted turned into.
Quote from: Nexus;786648I haven't liked the direction Exalted has been going in since early 2ed. Its been becoming some kind of soapbox for the writers to lecture on the evils of whatever their particular socio economic or political hobgoblins are and less about legendary badasses and heroes doing epic and even Over the Top shit with a definite anime flavor which is now a playstyle treated with patronizing attitude and mild contempt ("Rpg.net Exalted").
And a setting meant to be neutral gray as far as innate morality (and I freely admit I largely ignored that aspect. I like my role playing more upbeat) is becoming a typical "White Wolf' Crapsack World where everything you do is "Doomed I tell you, Doom! Oh the Angst, Oh the Mature Gaming!" That's why its funny to see the game get hoisted by the SJW banner it so proudly flies these days.
This. Totally this. Ignoring my issues with the system (which are many), the overarching hand-wringing going on with the WW authors over their remaining hot-seller made me sick to death of the line. It's like somewhere long after Vampire's heyday, they lost sight of what made those products GOOD, and focused instead on their artistic integrity in their tiny niche product.
I'm all for writers making some statements in RPGs. Go for it, you're a writer, use your position to make a few points. Just makes sure what remains is a very gameable game for the people who buy the product in trust. It's still why I prefer using 1st edition Exalted over all the later entries - I can port the setting out of the mess of the Adventure/Aberrant/Trinity system into another game, but the actual quality of the setting shone through in that work.
But the current direction of the game line just confuses and irritates me. Exalted seems to have devolved to "choices" like "eat this baby or the world dies". Or, "you saw too many peasants injured, so now you lash out in a moral rage and cause just as much damage", with lots of ironic tones and accents given to make it
seem like it's something other than a half-assed rehash of the same damned Humanity / Frenzy system they've been using since V:tM 1st edition.
Quote from: Snowman0147;807512You know what is sad? That isn't so far from the truth. Some one should convince CCP to sell the IPs they own so Onyx Path won't touch it. Seriously look at what they done to Exalted. It used to be heroes who are chosen of the gods doing major things in the world and now even F.A.T.A.L. is laughing at Exalted in its grave. Thanks Onyx Path you fucking ruined Exalted. Please do not touch Scion because you done enough.
Well, on the Scion front, CCP *did* sell the IP.
They sold it to us. It's one of the games we own rather than license from them.
Among other things, it means that Scion's new edition won't use Storyteller.
Quote from: DaveB;807771They sold it to us. It's one of the games we own rather than license from them.
So who are you?
Quote from: DaveB;807771Among other things, it means that Scion's new edition won't use Storyteller.
There are several reasons for me to check out Scion 2ed. This is about three of them.
Quote from: Bren;807773So who are you?
Oh, the "us" meant "Onyx Path."
I'm Dave Brookshaw, the Mage: The Awakening Developer. I've been working on the new system (which Scion and Trinity, the two games Onyx Path bought rather than licensed, will use) for months. Other than I think one freelancer the new system and Exalted have no personnel in common.
Quote from: DaveB;807780Oh, the "us" meant "Onyx Path."
I'm Dave Brookshaw, the Mage: The Awakening Developer. I've been working on the new system (which Scion and Trinity, the two games Onyx Path bought rather than licensed, will use) for months. Other than I think one freelancer the new system and Exalted have no personnel in common.
I had no clue. Thanks for clarifying.
I have no idea what Exalted is and what's different in the third edition. Can someone give me a short summary of the changes? ;)
Quote from: DaveB;807780Oh, the "us" meant "Onyx Path."
I'm Dave Brookshaw, the Mage: The Awakening Developer. I've been working on the new system (which Scion and Trinity, the two games Onyx Path bought rather than licensed, will use) for months. Other than I think one freelancer the new system and Exalted have no personnel in common.
I do get the strong impression that the Exalted team is not the cWoD team is not the nWoD team, but I only pay the faintest attention to WW/OP discussions out of general curiosity. How accurate are these impressions?
Okay the fact your not using storyteller means I going to give you a chance on that. If you go the same route that Exalted went through though you won't get me as a customer.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;807795I do get the strong impression that the Exalted team is not the cWoD team is not the nWoD team, but I only pay the faintest attention to WW/OP discussions out of general curiosity. How accurate are these impressions?
The gamelines share a lot of freelancers, with Exalted as the notable exception. Neall Raemonn Price, for example, is writing part of Awakening 2E's core for me, the Orpheus chapter of Wraith 20th, and is also on the team building the in-house rules system for the owned properties. Stew Wilson is the Developer for both versions of Werewolf.
Exalted's just been in the place where its team were working flat-out on it and only it for years. I expect Holden will start writing WoD books once Exalted finally comes out - he did parts of Werewolf20 if I recall correctly.
Scion/Trinity's shared core rules will be going up for public playtesting soon - that is, the dice mechanics, combat system and such, not the layers both games put over it.
Quote from: Snowman0147;807805Okay the fact your not using storyteller means I going to give you a chance on that. If you go the same route that Exalted went through though you won't get me as a customer.
Having actual playtrsting materials is the selling point to me. I cannot justify buying a product sight unseen, considering the state of the previous one.
Regarding the power level issue. The developers really seem to go back and fourth on it, waffling as fan opinion sways in the wind. When "over powered Solars" were a big sticking point it was all about how they were being toned down, now they've been backing off on that.
The most recent statement related to the subject... well take it as you will.
Quote from: Holden;18616913This is broadly correct. Fighting in EX2 and to a lesser degree in EX1 was largely an exercise in using magic to banish tactical considerations, then using more magic to whomp hard. Then he who had no weaknesses and could whomp hardest won. (In 1e this meant Solars and Sids usually won, since they could most effectively get rid of their weaknesses before measuring whomp-sticks. In 2e Solars were the clear winner, since they could banish all tactical considerations trivially and completely, then whomp way harder than anyone else.)
Fighting in EX3 doesn't work that way. Tactics remain important at all levels, although you can use whomping power to compensate for bad or sloppy tactics when there's a sufficient power gap-- i.e. a Solar can afford to sloppily steamroll a mortal if he's willing to burn Essence like a drunken sailor, but only if he's willing to do that-- if he tries to conserve his power, he'd better fight smart. If he's fighting something that can hit dangerously hard or marshal big pools, he'd better fight seriously every time, because good tactics can beat sheer power in EX3, especially in group fights.
Quote from: Coffee Zombie;807761This. Totally this. Ignoring my issues with the system (which are many), the overarching hand-wringing going on with the WW authors over their remaining hot-seller made me sick to death of the line. It's like somewhere long after Vampire's heyday, they lost sight of what made those products GOOD, and focused instead on their artistic integrity in their tiny niche product.
I'm all for writers making some statements in RPGs. Go for it, you're a writer, use your position to make a few points. Just makes sure what remains is a very gameable game for the people who buy the product in trust. It's still why I prefer using 1st edition Exalted over all the later entries - I can port the setting out of the mess of the Adventure/Aberrant/Trinity system into another game, but the actual quality of the setting shone through in that work.
But the current direction of the game line just confuses and irritates me. Exalted seems to have devolved to "choices" like "eat this baby or the world dies". Or, "you saw too many peasants injured, so now you lash out in a moral rage and cause just as much damage", with lots of ironic tones and accents given to make it seem like it's something other than a half-assed rehash of the same damned Humanity / Frenzy system they've been using since V:tM 1st edition.
Fact 1: Exalted are mammals.
Fact 2: Exalted fight ALL the time.
Fact 3: The purpose of the Exalted is to flip out and kill people.
JG
The Exalted team really should have dedicated just one person to address the public (StephenLs is the best one for the job, IMO. He can be as snarky and passive aggressive as any of them but seems to keep it in check more). But the times when the developer answer contradict each other or they don't seem to know what they're talking about regarding elements of the game doesn't build confidence. Exalted has allot of lore and baggage, to be fair but still the fanbase shouldn't be pointing out stuff the developers miss.
The comments and general sense of disdain about "rpg.net Exalted" and people that like it are grating. The idea of power and impact, avoiding so called "Zero to Hero" grinds is what brought allot of people into the game to begin with and what was hyped about Exalted or years. Now its apparently become laughable (since its a promise the mechanics can't keep) and "bad for the game".
I'm not quite at the level of so called "Rpg.net Exalted" and, honestly, I think its become something of a caricature (throwing mountain and wrestling C'thullu by the second session, etc) of a dissenting preference of what seems to be the current popular outlook regarding Exalted (regional politics, local scope, empire building, etc).
But I was drawn into the game by the thought of playing potent world shaking characters that did big things right off the bat and were BFDs in the setting. I have no interest in building empires and ruling a kingdom and if I want regional level exploits there's any number of fantasy games and setting where I can do that. One of my issues with 2ed was the increasing focus on playing what, to me, amounted to Civilization or Master of Magic instead of an adventure game of high end heroics.
I don't want to get into the endless argument of what the game was "meant" to be. But I am concerned the 3rd edition changed emphasis will make it more difficult to use for the game I want to run and my group wants to play.
Quote from: James Gillen;807469These guys would think that Blue Rose isn't politically correct enough.
JG
Jesus Norris Christ.
Also, agreed...
Quote from: The Ent;808715Jesus Norris Christ.
Also, agreed...
That's the thing. You can't win. Pandering just leads down a rabbit hole of endless accusations and increasingly fringe demands.
Quote from: Nexus;808718That's the thing. You can't win. Pandering just leads down a rabbit hole of endless accusations and increasingly fringe demands.
I find that statement not only offensive but reprehensible on several levels. :rant:
...as in, agreed.
Live by the pander, die by the pander. Half of the Exalted dev team present on TBP were busy banning everyone with an opinion different than the one that hangs their precious game now by it's sore, blue from abuse, balls. I feel no pity for them.
Quote from: Rincewind1;808729Live by the pander, die by the pander. Half of the Exalted dev team present on TBP were busy banning everyone with an opinion different than the one that hangs their precious game now by it's sore, blue from abuse, balls. I feel no pity for them.
Absolutely. Hell of their own making.
What gets me about the re-conception for 3rd edition is how much the high power level and importance of the characters was pushed by both the authors and the fans for 1 and a half editions but now they're acting like that was never intent and, usually passively aggressively, looking down on anyone that wants it.
That and, frankly you can do regional level politics in Asian influenced classical period setting in any of a number of rules sets, fantasy or generic. and D included. The gonzo, high powered flash was one of the few things that set Exalted apart and made it worth putting up with the cumbersome Storyteller mechanics.
Quote from: Nexus;808757What gets me about the re-conception for 3rd edition is how much the high power level and importance of the characters was pushed by both the authors and the fans for 1 and a half editions but now they're acting like that was never intent and, usually passively aggressively, looking down on anyone that wants it.
That and, frankly you can do regional level politics in Asian influenced classical period setting in any of a number of rules sets, fantasy or generic. and D included. The gonzo, high powered flash was one of the few things that set Exalted apart and made it worth putting up with the cumbersome Storyteller mechanics.
That high powered flash only worked so long as nothing important noticed you and the decided it didn't like you.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;808765That high powered flash only worked so long as nothing important noticed you and the decided it didn't like you.
That's another issue with the game: the bait and switch. Its a promise that drew many of the fans in but was never kept. Your character is a "big deal" that only exists because the real powers in the setting don't think they're important enough to squash just yet. But then that sort of thing isn't new to White Wolf or its legacy games. See Aberrant for another example.
Quote from: Nexus;808776That's another issue with the game: the bait and switch. Its a promise that drew many of the fans in but was never kept. Your character is a "big deal" that only exists because the real powers in the setting don't think they're important enough to squash just yet. But then that sort of thing isn't new to White Wolf or its legacy games. See Aberrant for another example.
Or anything from the oWoD really, since in Vampire there was Cain just waiting, bidding his time to suck everyone inside, for example.
Quote from: Rincewind1;808777Or anything from the oWoD really, since in Vampire there was Cain just waiting, bidding his time to suck everyone inside, for example.
And in Werewolf all your awesome was meaningless in the face of the overwhelming odds and the depressingly inescapable doom that pervaded everything.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;808778And in Werewolf all your awesome was meaningless in the face of the overwhelming odds and the depressingly inescapable doom that pervaded everything.
Which is something that is being dialed up in 3rd edition Exalted with a more vigorous Realm and more powerful Wyld Hunt along with narrowing the power difference between the various types of Exalted and lowering the ceiling as a whole.
Quote from: Nexus;808779Which is something that is being dialed up in 3rd edition Exalted with a more vigorous Realm and more powerful Wyld Hunt along with narrowing the power difference between the various types of Exalted and lowering the ceiling as a whole.
Right, because the Wyld Hunt wasn't enough of a pain in the ass. Against starting Solars, even some with some xp under their belt, even a rookie Hunt with a few units of mortals will wteck their shit.
And beefing up the Realm and the Hunt just means you should just make a diagram of a circle within a circle within a circle. The inner circle is the Realm, rhe middle circle is the territory they influence/control, and the outer circle, is were you as a Solar get to play.
And when you get to big? The outer circle gets zerged by the middle and inner circles and kill you, because they have more Terrestrials, crack troops, and more tech than you.
They don't need to be better.
Quote from: Nexus;808779Which is something that is being dialed up in 3rd edition Exalted with a more vigorous Realm and more powerful Wyld Hunt along with narrowing the power difference between the various types of Exalted and lowering the ceiling as a whole.
I thought the Wyld Hunt was more powerful because now only the religious fanatics are willing to volunteer, causing the Wyld Hunt to show up less in the Threshold? That is how I took those comments by the devs anyways.
I personally don't mind the mind the Exalted losing some power, since I always preferred the game more Sword & Sorcery(Elric, Conan, Lankhmar) crossed with anime(magitech, warstriders, hair colors from the entire rainbow spectrum).
How this will play out in 3E, I do not know. With Creation now being bigger, I hope that there will be spots beyond the Realm's control that Solars can be Solars without having the worry of being ganked by the fate ninja hit squad in their sleep. One of the things that irked me about 2E(which I still like) was that the nations I found interesting, who were not under the control of the Realm, would still be anti-exalted. Coral comes to mind in the West, and Linowan(who admittedly were allied with the Realm) in the East is another example.
Quote from: Starglyte;808805I thought the Wyld Hunt was more powerful because now only the religious fanatics are willing to volunteer, causing the Wyld Hunt to show up less in the Threshold? That is how I took those comments by the devs anyways.
According to what I've heard and understand the Realm will be more active and vital with a potent presence throughout most of the world, more so than in early editions with a Wyld Hunt that will be something to be feared at any level of play. Basically if it shows: RUN AWAY.
Its only "weakening since the Empress vanished and the Solars returned is a loss of some personnel and funding so it can't effectively squash all the new Solars popping up now. It will take some time to play Whack-a-mole with them but it can and will squash you if make too much trouble.
QuoteI personally don't mind the mind the Exalted losing some power, since I always preferred the game more Sword & Sorcery(Elric, Conan, Lankhmar) crossed with anime(magitech, warstriders, hair colors from the entire rainbow spectrum).
I've go no problem with that level of play. My thing is I can (and have) done that in other games, several other games. I was drawn to Exallted for the promise of something different. Not just the same types of adventurers except they glow from time to time playing the WoD with a Fantasy paint job.
Fair enough. Hopefully the setting chapter of the corebook will shed more light on what setting changes occurred regarding the presence of the Realm and their Wyld Hunt.
To be honest though, I am more interested in seeing the new Exalted types that haven't been spoiled yet along with the new setting info on the Sea of Dreams and the West direction. Hopefully, by the end of this year we will have the book in our hands(and/or electronic devices)
Quote from: Nexus;808776That's another issue with the game: the bait and switch. Its a promise that drew many of the fans in but was never kept. Your character is a "big deal" that only exists because the real powers in the setting don't think they're important enough to squash just yet. But then that sort of thing isn't new to White Wolf or its legacy games. See Aberrant for another example.
Aberrant was less of a letdown in character power than Trinity. Or for that matter, Vampire.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;808929Aberrant was less of a letdown in character power than Trinity. Or for that matter, Vampire.
JG
I thought it was. For all the "What would do with the power of a god?" crap it was more "What would you do with the power of some what low end to standard comic superhero in a world full of gods?"
The answer being: "Follow the unchanged metaplot future history having any thing you might to do that changes anything more than cosmetically negated by the actual Gods or writer fiat. Have fun!"
Quote from: Starglyte;808896Fair enough. Hopefully the setting chapter of the corebook will shed more light on what setting changes occurred regarding the presence of the Realm and their Wyld Hunt.
To be honest though, I am more interested in seeing the new Exalted types that haven't been spoiled yet along with the new setting info on the Sea of Dreams and the West direction. Hopefully, by the end of this year we will have the book in our hands(and/or electronic devices)
Not trying to pick on you and I hope its not coming across like that but I'm neutral at best about the new Exalt types. I thought the setting was getting too crowded with types of Exalts back when Sidereals were first introduced. It makes the concept feel watered down, a label that's just slapped on anything and the room for space and individuality is getting stretched pretty thin. (IMO).
I hate to throw the over (and often misused) quote "When everyone is special no one is" but it really feels that way. Again like the WoD where's so many supers in the world that all must have agency and import that it feels like you can't swing a stick without hitting one and room for action is desperate (I mean damn, you have supernaturally powerful monsters in that settin that are -homeless- :D)
Especially that "Dirty Bomb" Exaltations or Exigents stuff. Now Exaltation isn't even an honor your earn or something you inherent from a bloodline of heroes its something that can be brought, sold and traded like a commodity.
At least V20 and its product line (which is actually very densely packed with cool, gameable stuff) is metaplot-agnostic, so you can decide that Cain and the Antedliuvians or whatever other superpowered PC-squishers don't exist in your campaign and the product line is happy to support you in that. It sounds like Exalted hasn't learned the same "Your table, your game, your choice" lesson that the oWoD teams have.
Quote from: Nexus;808941Not trying to pick on you and I hope its not coming across like that but I'm neutral at best about the new Exalt types. I thought the setting was getting too crowded with types of Exalts back when Sidereals were first introduced. It makes the concept feel watered down, a label that's just slapped on anything and the room for space and individuality is getting stretched pretty thin. (IMO).
I hate to throw the over (and often misused) quote "When everyone is special no one is" but it really feels that way. Again like the WoD where's so many supers in the world that all must have agency and import that it feels like you can't swing a stick without hitting one and room for action is desperate (I mean damn, you have supernaturally powerful monsters in that settin that are -homeless- :D)
Especially that "Dirty Bomb" Exaltations or Exigents stuff. Now Exaltation isn't even an honor your earn or something you inherent from a bloodline of heroes its something that can be brought, sold and traded like a commodity.
No worries. Different tastes for different people. What I wanted out Exalted should be different from what you wanted.
I always viewed the new exalted types as more options than contributing to overcrowding. Now, to completely trash my own argument, the one new Exalted type that I am not interested in is the Exgients, which are nothing but new options. I suppose this has more to do with them being what I call the "Exalted of the Lesser Gods". The lesser gods(those gods who are not the Incarna) were always the most boring part of the setting to me.
Dear Lord, they've found another ism...or is it an ist to hand wring over now. I guess because someone found something fun and it gave them joy and we all know you can't have that with a heavy helping social consciousness guilt anymore.
Quote from: Nexus;808941Not trying to pick on you and I hope its not coming across like that but I'm neutral at best about the new Exalt types. I thought the setting was getting too crowded with types of Exalts back when Sidereals were first introduced. It makes the concept feel watered down, a label that's just slapped on anything and the room for space and individuality is getting stretched pretty thin. (IMO).
I agree entirely, though I'm not quite as restrictive as drawing the line at Sidereals. For me I didn't see why we needed Infernals when we already have Abyssals as the anti-Solars, and Alchemicals were just a weird, unnecessary adjunct-like non-sequitur.
Quote from: Nexus;809016Dear Lord, they've found another ism...or is it an ist to hand wring over now. I guess because someone found something fun and it gave them joy and we all know you can't have that with a heavy helping social consciousness guilt anymore.
Is this referring to the Martial Arts vs Brawl debate? The one that is now about western martial arts vs eastern martial arts?
Quote from: Starglyte;809032Is this referring to the Martial Arts vs Brawl debate? The one that is now about western martial arts vs eastern martial arts?
Yes. It was an all okay topic before now it taken the usual turn become about racism, Orientalism, etc.
Can't anything just be cool anymore? Its tiring having someone try to make you feel guilty for anything that gives you some joy. Hell, most of the movies and media that make the biggest deal about the innate superiority of "Eastern" fighting style is made in Asia for the Asian market, IME. "Orientalism" be damned.
Quote from: Nexus;809016Dear Lord, they've found another ism...or is it an ist to hand wring over now. I guess because someone found something fun and it gave them joy and we all know you can't have that with a heavy helping social consciousness guilt anymore.
The bit about the ultimate warrior is pretty damn funny though.
I'm lost how people think the difference between brawling and martial arts is an east west thing. Boxing is a martial art, any organized form is. Mechanically I always thought the 4th edition shadowrun approach was reasonable, melee skill gives you dice, martial arts purchased as a perk gives you specific maneuvers and situational bonuses. Also makes for a troll boxer who can deck a moving van which is fun.
I have mixed feelings about Alchemicals. They're or an original idea and might have worked well as their own thing is a different setting. But they really stuck out in Exalted and you couldn't introduce them very easily without making your game essentially about them. And I didn't find Autochothon as written interesting enough to want to set a game there. I felt they're nature stretched the concept of "Exalt" to the breaking point.
I did find a way to incorporate them into my game but as a form of powerful Artifact instead of an Exalt, First Age weapons and servants. Generally I've never like the idea of heroes that can be manufactured and Exalted edging closer to that trope.
Quote from: Nexus;808939I thought it was. For all the "What would do with the power of a god?" crap it was more "What would you do with the power of some what low end to standard comic superhero in a world full of gods?"
The answer being: "Follow the unchanged metaplot future history having any thing you might to do that changes anything more than cosmetically negated by the actual Gods or writer fiat. Have fun!"
Well, that was the big problem, but it's hardly much more so than in any other given White Wolf game. Even a beginning level nova had more ass-kicker potential than a typical 13th Generation Vampire, who could only gain super-strength by getting extremely hungry, and who was largely operating on human level except for a really high light sensitivity.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;809092Well, that was the big problem, but it's hardly much more so than in any other given White Wolf game. Even a beginning level nova had more ass-kicker potential than a typical 13th Generation Vampire, who could only gain super-strength by getting extremely hungry, and who was largely operating on human level except for a really high light sensitivity.
JG
Yeah the tagline for Vampire wasn' "What would you do with the power of a Vampire god?" It wasn't pimped as a game where the PCs would be changing the world or rising to high levels of power.
Yeah, you were pretty much a peon in the WoD games, not even a blip on anyone's radar but it felt like less of a bait and switch in a "game of personal horror" than in a game of new gods. At least to me and the group I was playing at the time.
The same goes for Exalted,. Aside from healing and marginal toughness benefits once your character runs out of Go Juice (Essence) there's not much mechanical difference between them and a trained mortal.* And it seems the 3rd edition is scaled such that players will have to conserve and manage their Go Juice very well even against mortals if they expect to make it.
*Plus if your character is celestial they're now glowing like a lighthouse, essentially a big "Come Kill Me" hovering over their head.
Quote from: Nexus;809094Yeah the tagline for Vampire wasn' "What would you do with the power of a Vampire god?" It wasn't pimped as a game where the PCs would be changing the world or rising to high levels of power.
Yeah, you were pretty much a peon in the WoD games, not even a blip on anyone's radar but it felt like less of a bait and switch in a "game of personal horror" than in a game of new gods. At least to me and the group I was playing at the time.
The same goes for Exalted,. Aside from healing and marginal toughness benefits once your character runs out of Go Juice (Essence) there's not much mechanical difference between them and a trained mortal.* And it seems the 3rd edition is scaled such that players will have to conserve and manage their Go Juice very well even against mortals if they expect to make it.
*Plus if your character is celestial they're now glowing like a lighthouse, essentially a big "Come Kill Me" hovering over their head.
It's funny, but when I think of what I would do if I had the power of a god, which Exalts arguably do, it's never, hope the numerous actors with bigger sticks find me to be a backburner issue to be squashed when the current issue is concluded.
Quote from: Nexus;809094Yeah, you were pretty much a peon in the WoD games, not even a blip on anyone's radar but it felt like less of a bait and switch in a "game of personal horror" than in a game of new gods. At least to me and the group I was playing at the time.
Not just the oWoD games; look at the starting array for an nWoD character, then look at the stat-line for a cop in the Antagonists section of the book. Apparently cops are paragons of humanity to which no starting character could aspire.
Abberant also suffered from the system not being very playable as well.
The Mega-Attributes and Enhancements were awesome in terms of the concepts they allowed, don't get me wrong. As a kid who had grown up on comic books, I was 17/18ish when Abberant first came out, and I hadn't ever really grokked the idea of someone being "Super Charasmatic" or "Super Manipulative" before.
Abberant broadened my horizons on just what "Super Powers" and "Super Heroes" could be.
That being said, the game was terrible in terms of mechanical design. There were so many traps and pitfalls in terms of actual mechanical balance it was easy to design a character who wasn't very good at anything at all.
Combat was also very "Quick Draw" ish, in terms of who ever won initiative tended to win the fight. Unless you went out of your way to overload on Defensive powers, a 2 dot Quantum Bolt could pretty much kill anyone.
God Help you against the character who decided to put points in both Mega-Strength and Mega-Dex.
The setting was fascinating though, outside of the rail road metaplot parts.
Back on the Topic of Exalted though..
I've pretty much given up on 3rd edition based on what I'm hearing. It sounds overly complex, and the changes to the setting don't sit well with me. The writers on it have also come across as very condescending when it comes to honest inquiries from their customer base...
They sort of pull off this "We're the Keepers of Exalted, and lo plebeians it shall be we who bestow the sacred knowledge of the setting onto you, if we find you worthy..."
I could understand being cagey until you had actually had a system developed in the first place....but after that, why not show it off? Why not get feedback from it? Shit that's what the rest of Onyx Path does. "Hey take a look at what we've developed, give us feedback, what do you think?"
It's like Exalted has become a damn mystery cult.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;809143It's funny, but when I think of what I would do if I had the power of a god, which Exalts arguably do, it's never, hope the numerous actors with bigger sticks find me to be a backburner issue to be squashed when the current issue is concluded.
Although in my observations of history, "My god can beat up your god" is a fairly accurate representation of religious development.
JG
Quote from: Kiero;809169Not just the oWoD games; look at the starting array for an nWoD character, then look at the stat-line for a cop in the Antagonists section of the book. Apparently cops are paragons of humanity to which no starting character could aspire.
Damn, I'd heard that but I figured that it was an exaggeration.
Have you seen those dog stats? The dog is wittier than most starting characters. That is right your going to be out witted by a dog. How does that feel?
Quote from: Snowman0147;809417Have you seen those dog stats? The dog is wittier than most starting characters. That is right your going to be out witted by a dog. How does that feel?
Rough.
Quote from: Bren;809427Rough.
You sir just won a internet cookie. *Hands over that internet cookie.*
Quote from: Snowman0147;809449You sir just won a internet cookie. *Hands over that internet cookie.*
Why thank you. :)
Quote from: Nexus;809392Damn, I'd heard that but I figured that it was an exaggeration.
Unfortunately not. The basic starting array in nWoD will give you an incompetent novice who is notably less capable than many "ordinary" people. The cop has literally double the number of Attribute points that a starting nWoD character does and 50% more skill points. Every cop is a superhuman, apparently.
It's why I looked for an alternative schema when we played Mage: the Awakening (and got it in the form of Proximi), and insisted we didn't use it for Mass: the Effecting (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Mass:_the_Effecting). The recommended starting character in M:tE has about 50% more characters resources than a default nWoD one, meaning they are actually competent from the off.
Not that boosters of the system want to hear that, of course. That's without getting into the whole issue people seem to have with what the numbers mean. Such as being able to drive a car (ie having spent time learning the skill and passing the test) doesn't require you to put at least a dot in Drive.
I mostly just default to something close to oWoD point totals:
Attributes 7/5/3, Skills 13/9/5, Merits 7, everything else RAW.
For additional badassitude, sometimes I just give XP, but sometimes I give 15 "freebie points" oWoD style (which can buy dots of Attributes 4:1, Skills 2:1, Merits 1:1, supernatural powers 7:1, without the escalating costs of XP).
I admit I haven't looked at nWoD 2e (GMC, B&S, etc.) yet but this is how I've handled it so far.
And once again the Exalted fans and devs show how bad they are at taking any form of "critic" ... it's hilarious.
Read through this thread :
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746910-%28Exalted-Atomic-Robo-RPG%29-So-Brian-Clevinger-put-some-thought-into-doing-Exalted-with-the-Atomic-Robo-RPG (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746910-%28Exalted-Atomic-Robo-RPG%29-So-Brian-Clevinger-put-some-thought-into-doing-Exalted-with-the-Atomic-Robo-RPG)
;)
I think it's really sad how...passive agressive they all get.
Sure there are different tastes, but still, i think especially as someone who seems to think of him/herself as being a professional, you should be more...well, professional...about such things.
But then maybe i just have too high expectations of those guys who seem to think that they are professional designers of games.
Quote from: Anglachel;810195And once again the Exalted fans and devs show how bad they are at taking any form of "critic" ... it's hilarious.
Read through this thread :
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746910-%28Exalted-Atomic-Robo-RPG%29-So-Brian-Clevinger-put-some-thought-into-doing-Exalted-with-the-Atomic-Robo-RPG (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746910-%28Exalted-Atomic-Robo-RPG%29-So-Brian-Clevinger-put-some-thought-into-doing-Exalted-with-the-Atomic-Robo-RPG)
;)
I think it's really sad how...passive aggressive they all get.
Sure there are different tastes, but still, i think especially as someone who seems to think of him/herself as being a professional, you should be more...well, professional...about such things.
But then maybe i just have too high expectations of those guys who seem to think that they are professional designers of games.
Yeah the developers have never been very professional about but I it stands to reasons as allot of them are former fans of the game. Exalted really is a case of the inmates taking over the asylum. And they;re creating the game they want and would enjoy.
But fans (and has been been pretty much standard procedure in Exalted) act like once their fan group becomes vocal and ascendent its tastes are "what the game was always supposed to be" and people that disagree are e heretics or some fringe minority that is to be tolerated but not pandered too.
I will be glad when the book finally drops so the developers will stop playing this silly "I know a secret and its awesome but I won't tell! *teehee*" bullshit. The evasive answers and vague hints follow by smug practical gloating are annoying as people scrabble to try and decipher them But OTOH, the current fanbase seems to really enjoy it so what do I know.
Edit: thought in all fairness the quoted material in the OP did come across as aggressive and a bit arrogant too.
Quote from: The Butcher;809583I mostly just default to something close to oWoD point totals:
Attributes 7/5/3, Skills 13/9/5, Merits 7, everything else RAW.
For additional badassitude, sometimes I just give XP, but sometimes I give 15 "freebie points" oWoD style (which can buy dots of Attributes 4:1, Skills 2:1, Merits 1:1, supernatural powers 7:1, without the escalating costs of XP).
I admit I haven't looked at nWoD 2e (GMC, B&S, etc.) yet but this is how I've handled it so far.
To be honest, I think most of the GMC updates are superfluous bloat that adds little. With two exceptions: the change to the basics of the combat mechanics (something most people had been doing anyway) and to XP.
For the former, it removes armour and weapons from dicepools, instead making the them part of the resolution step
after you've established whether or not you hit. Which removes the incongruous business of heavy weapons being more "accurate" because they add more dice.
For the latter, XP is flattened, ironically not far from your values above. Merits and Specialities are 1XP per dot; Skills 2XP per dot; Attributes 4XP per dot; and supernatural stuff varies.
Quote from: Kiero;810212To be honest, I think most of the GMC updates are superfluous bloat that adds little. With two exceptions: the change to the basics of the combat mechanics (something most people had been doing anyway) and to XP.
For the former, it removes armour and weapons from dicepools, instead making the them part of the resolution step after you've established whether or not you hit. Which removes the incongruous business of heavy weapons being more "accurate" because they add more dice.
For the latter, XP is flattened, ironically not far from your values above. Merits and Specialities are 1XP per dot; Skills 2XP per dot; Attributes 4XP per dot; and supernatural stuff varies.
Interesting. Thanks for the input. And yeah, I've been doing that to weapons and armor too.
I think I'll cave in and get GMC and V:tR 2e. Or maybe I should wait for WoD 2e proper?
Quote from: Anglachel;810195And once again the Exalted fans and devs show how bad they are at taking any form of "critic" ... it's hilarious.
Read through this thread :
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746910-%28Exalted-Atomic-Robo-RPG%29-So-Brian-Clevinger-put-some-thought-into-doing-Exalted-with-the-Atomic-Robo-RPG (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746910-%28Exalted-Atomic-Robo-RPG%29-So-Brian-Clevinger-put-some-thought-into-doing-Exalted-with-the-Atomic-Robo-RPG)
That thread quickly became a contest to see who can out pompous blowhard each other.
I didn't think the OP came across as aggressive and arrogant. Ok, maybe just a little. But he has some good points. Exalted 3e could have been great if they finally let go of the idea that it needs to be bound to Storyteller-as-it-is. I am not even saying they should have gone the light-weight rules way or say adios to everything exception based. But an infusion of some newer design ideas couldn't have hurt.
I am always flabbergasted by comments along the line of "this is how the Exalted fanbase wants it". I mean yeah, some of the fanbase want it that way. But all? No, definitely not! I am not even convinced that the majority of the fanbase wants it that way (considering how many online-discussions there are about "how can i do Exalted right?" i am more inclined to believe the opposite). But the Devs make it sound as if that's the case. And as there is no hard data on it, nobody can really gainsay them.
The reason they are not interested in really changing Exalted, imo, is more along the lines of: a) they're just too lazy to get off their collective asses and do some real work in the design compartment b) it's possible that they, the dev team, really like the way Exalted works, mechanics wise. I mean tastes differ, right?! So it is possible that there are some gamers that like to have clumsy, overwrought and break-tastic game-mechanics... :eek::D
Quote from: Anglachel;810371I am always flabbergasted by comments along the line of "this is how the Exalted fanbase wants it". I mean yeah, some of the fanbase want it that way. But all? No, definitely not! I am not even convinced that the majority of the fanbase wants it that way (considering how many online-discussions there are about "how can i do Exalted right?" i am more inclined to believe the opposite). But the Devs make it sound as if that's the case. And as there is no hard data on it, nobody can really gainsay them.
The reason they are not interested in really changing Exalted, imo, is more along the lines of: a) they're just too lazy to get off their collective asses and do some real work in the design compartment b) it's possible that they, the dev team, really like the way Exalted works, mechanics wise. I mean tastes differ, right?! So it is possible that there are some gamers that like to have clumsy, overwrought and break-tastic game-mechanics... :eek::D
Yeah, the Exalted fanbase has always been extremely diverse and factional. Any claims to be speaking for the entirety of it are overblown at best.
There's definitely a significant group that is really attached to the chunky exception based design and phone book of rules exception charms style. But not integral to the definition as Exalted. Storyteller mechanics definitely aren't and, IMO, are a liability to the kind of the game.
I've seen some say they like te 2ed mechanics so there's no accounting to taste.
I admit the main reason I'm looking at 3rd at this point is to see if its workable and something I can hammer into what I want to play with less work than converting the whole burrito over into a different system. But the Magic 8 Ball is saying "Chance unlikely".
Isn't it much easier? Isn't the problem with Exalted a typical WW problem, namely they aren't very practical?
Nexus, are you sure it's a significant group? I'm not convinced. Sure, the Devs want to make us blieve that. I think it's just a very VERY vocal part on rpg.net that thinks it's THE way to do Exalted (TM).
I mean i can imagine there being some who want a exception based system. With a shopping list of individual powers. But even in that case, Exalted so far was always a bad execution of that design-theme. So why wouldn't they want a new way of looking at this?
The thread was red-texted...and as usual, it was one of the "other side" that got a thread ban. As if the pro-Ex posters where in any way more civil in their expression of their opinion.
It's funny how the Ex fans always complain how the "other side" is mean to them and offensive while employing the exact same rhetoric. But if you dare to point that out you can almost be sure that some Mod will give you a thread-ban (at the least). Oh boy.
Quote from: Anglachel;810404Nexus, are you sure it's a significant group? I'm not convinced. Sure, the Devs want to make us blieve that. I think it's just a very VERY vocal part on rpg.net that thinks it's THE way to do Exalted (TM).
I mean i can imagine there being some who want a exception based system. With a shopping list of individual powers. But even in that case, Exalted so far was always a bad execution of that design-theme. So why wouldn't they want a new way of looking at this?
I don't have any hard numbers and don't want to make similar claims to the people I'm tsk-tsking. But when I and others have brought up the subject of
using variant or lighter systems just judging from the volume of response it sure seems like there's an ample number of people with that opinion. Also I think at this point most ofo the people that wanted variant rules have jumped ship or lost interest in the game all together so its likely that the vocal fanbase is likely the most hardcore fans and dedicated to the original system and design concepts.
QuoteThe thread was red-texted...and as usual, it was one of the "other side" that got a thread ban. As if the pro-Ex posters where in any way more civil in their expression of their opinion.
It's funny how the Ex fans always complain how the "other side" is mean to them and offensive while employing the exact same rhetoric. But if you dare to point that out you can almost be sure that some Mod will give you a thread-ban (at the least). Oh boy.
Sometimes it seems like most of the mod staff is working on, had worked or is a rabid fan of Exalted.So it definitely gets some preferential treatment.
Quote from: Nexus;810436Sometimes it seems like most of the mod staff is working on, had worked or is a rabid fan of Exalted.So it definitely gets some preferential treatment.
Exception based moderation in action.
Some of the recent topics in the Exalted questions thread have really reminded me of some of the reasons I disliked Sidereals so much. That book (along with Fair Folk) felt it heralded the take over of "Weird for the sake of being strange" dominance of Exalted material which eventually lead to things like cows using Kung Fu, a character type that were basically refugees from Toontown and the sun as a huge mechanical monorail running over Creation.
You know I am making a game system that may actually work better than Exalted 3.0 without being complex. Here is a link to my game system (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2014/08/struggle-of-moirai.html) in my blog. Just saying I can easily do a Exalted hack and give it the proper scale for each exalted type.
I will also state this. No mortal should prove to be a combat challenge to a Exalted. Even a essence empty exalted should be considered a deadly threat to a group of mortals. The only way a mortal should defeat a Exalted is through numbers, cunning, and with one hell of a plan.
Quote from: Nexus;810331That thread quickly became a contest to see who can out pompous blowhard each other.
I'm really shocked by how damn arrogant they are. I loved the line of where Stephen says Exalted 3 wont be able to be broken. 4e was breakable and a ton mechanically tighter than Exalted 3 will ever dream of being. M&M3 is breakable if you put the time and effort into it.
The best games that exist can be broken if you have the desire and drive to do so. I cant imagine Exalted 3 will be any different.
To be clear I'm not saying either of those are the "best games" just examples of mechanically tight games.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;810854I'm really shocked by how damn arrogant they are. I loved the line of where Stephen says Exalted 3 wont be able to be broken. 4e was breakable and a ton mechanically tighter than Exalted 3 will ever dream of being. M&M3 is breakable if you put the time and effort into it.
The best games that exist can be broken if you have the desire and drive to do so. I cant imagine Exalted 3 will be any different.
To be clear I'm not saying either of those are the "best games" just examples of mechanically tight games.
That was OTT and I don't think they're doing themselves any favors setting up unrealistic expectations like that. Especially not with a customer based that's been burned before.
Quote from: Nexus;811164That was OTT and I don't think they're doing themselves any favors setting up unrealistic expectations like that. Especially not with a customer based that's been burned before.
Yeah, I don't suspect the reception of the game will look anything like what they expect.
The Exalted community particularly on rpg.net tends to be harsh at the best of times. If you give them inflated and unreasonable hopes its going to be even worse. Then again the extra year in development wont help any.
On the other hand, i have never seen more rabid "we will excuse anything" Exalted fans like on RPG.net. So...it will be interesting to see what will happen when the game finally hits e-stores (the pdf will see the light of day long before we see a print version).
As to the arrogance of some of the devs...amen. I don't know where their inflated self-perception stems from. Oh well.
That's going to be one massive tome.
I don't see how they can make a claim that the game can't be broken. Eventually there are going to be thousands of individual rules packets and exceptions to play against each other. There's going to be a wonky synergy or something somewhere. Between number and setting and concept drift and possible changes in the team over time its pretty much inevitable.
Quote from: Nexus;811195That's going to be one massive tome.
I don't see how they can make a claim that the game can't be broken. Eventually there are going to be thousands of individual rules packets and exceptions to play against each other. There's going to be a wonky synergy or something somewhere. Between number and setting and concept drift and possible changes in the team over time its pretty much inevitable.
There's what, 825 Charms? I think the Devs said there were 33 per Ability? So that plus Evocations, spells, martial arts bs.
Yeah, this sucker is going to be huge, and I really doubt that they've compared every charm against it's fellows. It would take longer than they have taken, considering you'd have to do so after every tweak and rework,
As soon as you have two abilities, one will be dominant. Add a third, and you'll get a gamebreaking combo.
Again, if WotC can't stop Magic being broken - and they have the most time, money, knowledge and resources in the hobby games industry - then a bunch of hacks have no hope.
Hell, one of the playtesters mentioned to me that their group already found some thing busted and reported on it but never heard back about it. It might be fixed by final release but I highly doubt that's the only thing or the only that will be introduced.
My combat play test hasn't run into anything that seems wonky. There's been allot of analysis paralysis slowing things down but no major system crashes, assuming we're doing everything right.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;810854I'm really shocked by how damn arrogant they are. I loved the line of where Stephen says Exalted 3 wont be able to be broken. 4e was breakable and a ton mechanically tighter than Exalted 3 will ever dream of being. M&M3 is breakable if you put the time and effort into it.
Well, to be precise, he said he was looking forward to seeing people try to break it.
But I remember seeing a designer or developer make a similar boast many years ago--"Go ahead and min/max. The game won't break." And that was with a much cleaner base and much more extensive playtesting than Exalted seems to have received.
The game? Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;811273Well, to be precise, he said he was looking forward to seeing people try to break it.
But I remember seeing a designer or developer make a similar boast many years ago--"Go ahead and min/max. The game won't break." And that was with a much cleaner base and much more extensive playtesting than Exalted seems to have received.
The game? Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition. :)
Hell, wasn't 4th toted as being unbreakable?
I can't say with certainty, but that didn't seem to bear out either, from what I understand.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;811318Hell, wasn't 4th toted as being unbreakable?
I can't say with certainty, but that didn't seem to bear out either, from what I understand.
Its like how every plan is foolproof until a particularly talented fool comes along. :)
I have a friend figure out how to get a half-orc in 4th edition to grip you to death with 11d6 out of the gate. Just saying any system can be broke.
Though to be fair, some of the ways people have claimed to "break the game" were just players and/or GMs misreading the rules. Reading-comprehension is a skill that not many have "put points into" in RL, it seems :banghead: :D
Although "writing concise and non-interpretable rules" is an art not many game-designers have.
Quote from: leetsepeak;18675037So I'm a new World of Darkness player tentatively interested in Exalted, but I have a few questions. In terms of tone and relationship, does Exalted still have a connection with the Old World of Darkness? I have the essential buy in of characters are very powerful and I'm okay with that, but how gonzo does the setting go? Are players typically tackling big giant epic adventures, or is there room for actually interacting with the setting as well?
Quote from: hatewheel;186756041) Yes and no. It's not something we intend to be clear on, or to outright contradict.
2) You do get powerful enough to flip tables on the setting, but it is a bit harder to just pave over what's there in this edition.
3) You can start with EX3 and understand everything that's going on.
Here's another attitude I've seen a great deal in the Exalted community: that being powerful enough to actually effect changes with out it being the focus of an entire campaign prevents you from "interacting with the setting". I thought one of the founding points of the game was what would you do with extreme power including how you could change the world?
Really "interacting with the setting" seems to mean "getting punted around by the setting and the important folks in it".
Quote from: Nexus;811834Here's another attitude I've seen a great deal in the Exalted community: that being powerful enough to actually effect changes with out it being the focus of an entire campaign prevents you from "interacting with the setting". I thought one of the founding points of the game was what would you do with extreme power including how you could change the world?
Really "interacting with the setting" seems to mean "getting punted around by the setting and the important folks in it".
Again, that's par for the course with these guys. "You've just been inducted into the Secret World that really runs things. As a coffee boy."
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;812014Again, that's par for the course with these guys. "You've just been inducted into the Secret World that really runs things. As a coffee boy."
JG
And after a hard fought campaign full intrigue, betrayal and loss you might one day work your way up....head coffee boy. Shortly before being killed by one of your better for getting them a tall half shot mocha latte instead of a tall half shot caramel redeye.
Quote from: Nexus;812054And after a hard fought campaign full intrigue, betrayal and loss you might one day work your way up....head coffee boy. Shortly before being killed by one of your better for getting them a tall half shot mocha latte instead of a tall half shot caramel redeye.
Welcome to the World of Suckage. Now watch us rub it in on Exalted.
Quote from: Snowman0147;812107Welcome to the World of Suckage. Now watch us rub it in on Exalted.
I think that's where much of the "Lets Empower mortals!" thing comes from, making the sure PCs don't get to uppity or feel too empowered. But still allows for factious claims of "power"
"Hey, it takes two back alley thugs to beat you like a red haired step child now, you're twice as powerful! (Of course one still can beat you if just won't be as bad now...)."
Quote from: Warboss Squee;811318Hell, wasn't 4th toted as being unbreakable?
I can't say with certainty, but that didn't seem to bear out either, from what I understand.
I don't know if it was toted as that but the developers seemed to try hard to keep putting out bug fixes to keep exploits and things from being over powered. It was a ton of work and that was with 4e which was a much more transparent system than Exalted 3 will likely be.
Quote from: Anglachel;811476Though to be fair, some of the ways people have claimed to "break the game" were just players and/or GMs misreading the rules. Reading-comprehension is a skill that not many have "put points into" in RL, it seems :banghead: :D
Although "writing concise and non-interpretable rules" is an art not many game-designers have.
I had a similar problem on another board with a 5e D&D discussion. I wanted to house rule and buff something up because it looked weak to me. People told me it was fine and didn't need a house rule. I asked how... turns out they were ignoring or didn't read a significant section of the rules. So yeah writing rules clearly and concisely really is a talent. Then you have to have people read those rules. :P
Of course it doesn't matter if the main idea is horrible flawed.
Quote from: Kiero;810212To be honest, I think most of the GMC updates are superfluous bloat that adds little. With two exceptions: the change to the basics of the combat mechanics (something most people had been doing anyway) and to XP.
Don't forget the near-complete re-engineering of the Integrity rules.
Quote from: The Butcher;810222I think I'll cave in and get GMC and V:tR 2e. Or maybe I should wait for WoD 2e proper?
I would say get V:tR 2E if you want to run Vampire stuff with the new rules, since it's complete in one book (unlike the previous edition) so you don't need to get the GMC (or use your WoD core book with it) in order to run or play it.
As for GMC, I'd say only get it if you are particularly keen to use the God-Machine setting content (if you're interested in Demon: the Descent it's particularly useful for giving that game context) - otherwise I'd wait for WoD 2E.
The integrity rules are one of the few things I like since you get to determine your own breaking points. Personally I would allow killing of other people in the name of self defense so that way police/military/hunter characters wouldn't get screwed over.
What I find offensive is the door system, they are going for the merit bloat again, and they are adding new bloat with condition/tilts. If you run a cross over game with vampire you got 40 conditions and possibly over 50 merits to remember.
The sad part is we have a supplement called Mirrors with optional rules that reduces bloat. One such set of rules allows you to have custom merits, but you only get five of them. Not to mention there is a number of things you can do with them. They work like FATE aspects, but only they do more things. If you let something bad happen to you, then you gain a 1xp. It would had been perfect for GMC and kill off the bloat.
Quote from: bartkusa;18684403This is utterly alien to me.
One of the declared goals for Ex3 was making mortals matter more, and that excited me. I want players attitudes toward mortals to change. Even the literal Best Swordsman in All Creation isn't guaranteed to exalt, because a Solar "shard" might not be available, or he might be disqualified by some defect of soul or personality. But if I'm telling his story, he probably has some unique tricks up his sleeve, and they deserve to be represented mechanically.
Hell, the real world is full of actual mortals, billions through the ages, and some of them still manage to be uniquely talented, doing what no other mortal can do.
As a GM, I felt frustrated in previous editions that I couldn't challenge my players in Exalted unless my NPCs could channel essence. It made me sad that I had to contrive characters into essence-channelers to support my stories.
This really makes no sense to me. The game isn't about the billions of mortals in Creation let alone reality. Its about the Exalted. Unless your PCs are mortals, I suppose then rules like this might be useful but the default assumption is (or was?) that the PCs would be Exalts of some sort.
If you don't need to be Exalt to challenge an Exalt (at least in their field) then what is the damn point and hype about Exalts? I mean, huzzah. You glow and if you glow certain colors you now have a big ass bulls-eye on your back. Biggest of whoops.
My god Nexus how did I miss this?
Look bartkusa here is a solution for you. Play another game that isn't exalted. Seriously there is tons of games that feature bad ass mortals. Exalted is about the exalted. It is their game and not about ordinary mortals. If your playing a mortal in exalted your defeating the purpose of playing exalted. It is that simple.
Quote from: bartkusa;18684655My point is the Exalted fight against people and for people, and it'd be sad if the only characters that matter are essence-users, and the only interesting stories are about fighting essence-users.
It seems arbitrary to say that mechanical bonuses can only come from equipment or essence, but not from anything else, because then mortals might get ideas too high for their station, and that would be deprotagonizing.
God, I think there seems to be "social justice" creeping into it too.
Ideas "above their station"? Really? Yeah, if you don't think Exalts should be challenged by local yokels you're obviously worried abot them getting "uppity" or whatever.
Quote from: Nexus;812574Ideas "above their station"? Really? Yeah, if you don't think Exalts should be challenged by local yokels you're obviously worried abot them getting "uppity" or whatever.
"Ideas above their station" I really think someone has been watching too much Downton Abbey.
I really don't know why I bother anymore (nerd obsessiveness I guess?). I barely recognize the game anymore. And the fanbase (at least of TBP) is one of the most unpleasant ones to deal with. And the game itself has yet to actually work or provide what was promised (as many times as that promise has changed).
and apparently I've been "doing it wrong" for 10 yr according the Great Grabowski which I recall a few of the current team throwing under the bus during 2ed... But its a bold new day.
Quote from: Nexus;812605I really don't know why I bother anymore (nerd obsessiveness I guess?). I barely recognize the game anymore. And the fanbase (at least of TBP) is one of the most unpleasant ones to deal with. And the game itself has yet to actually work or provide what was promised (as many times as that promise has changed).
and apparently I've been "doing it wrong" for 10 yr according the Great Grabowski which I recall a few of the current team throwing under the bus during 2ed... But its a bold new day.
I think a lot of the issue comes down to the developers and how they are approaching the game. They are approaching it less as developers and more as fan boys. Most developers are fans but there is a huge difference in the approach and style of interaction.
If Exalts are "supposed" to just be pulp fantasy characters that glow then I can play that in a system that doesn't involved memorizing 700+ little rules packets or buying largely the same books for the next decade.
Quote from: Nexus;812612If Exalts are "supposed" to just be pulp fantasy characters that glow then I can play that in a system that doesn't involved memorizing 700+ little rules packets or buying largely the same books for the next decade.
Well if you want pulpy heroes with a few powers. I would suggest Unisystem.
Still that raises the question of "whats the point of being Exalted if you don't cool world changing powers?" And the fiction of the Exalted killing the Primordials seems even weirder. How do pulply fantasy characters kill inhuman insane gods?
Or for that matter how do they kill the normal kinda god?
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;812614Well if you want pulpy heroes with a few powers. I would suggest Unisystem.
Still that raises the question of "whats the point of being Exalted if you don't cool world changing powers?" And the fiction of the Exalted killing the Primordials seems even weirder. How do pulply fantasy characters kill inhuman insane gods?
Or for that matter how do they kill the normal kinda god?
Yep. But apparently unless Tito and Johnny "Two Fingers" Wu can make your Exalts crap their pants the setting is reduced to uselessness.
But I'm just bitter and ate up with nerdrage over my recent education in how Exalted is supposed to be.
Quote from: Nexus;812615Yep. But apparently unless Tito and Johnny "Two Fingers" Wu can make your Exalts crap their pants the setting is reduced to uselessness.
But I'm just bitter and ate up with nerdrage over my recent education in how Exalted is supposed to be.
When they first talked about this way back, as I remeber. They just wanted a group of trained and prepared mortals to be able to confront a fairly new Exalted and that be a challenge. I could get behind that.
You fighting the gang of experienced bandits (somewhere between 12 and lets say 35) that took over a town as a new Exalted makes sense. That is reasonable and kind of thing for a new Exalt to go against and it be challenging. Now for an experienced Exalt that shouldn't be a challenge an army that should be a challenge.
But reading the threat that doesn't seem to be what they are talking about. They seem to be talking about individual mortals being a challenge to an exalt and that's just weird to me.
Exalted is a game about being a Exalt. The stories focus on Exalts both as protagonists and antagonists. Otherwise large parts of the setting that have been long established don't make a ton of sense.
I have a feeling that 3rd edition is going to be known as the edition that killed exalted. When a mortal can kick your ass the whole point of being exalted had died.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;812617When they first talked about this way back, as I remeber. They just wanted a group of trained and prepared mortals to be able to confront a fairly new Exalted and that be a challenge. I could get behind that.
You fighting the gang of experienced bandits (somewhere between 12 and lets say 35) that took over a town as a new Exalted makes sense. That is reasonable and kind of thing for a new Exalt to go against and it be challenging. Now for an experienced Exalt that shouldn't be a challenge an army that should be a challenge.
But reading the threat that doesn't seem to be what they are talking about. They seem to be talking about individual mortals being a challenge to an exalt and that's just weird to me.
Exalted is a game about being a Exalt. The stories focus on Exalts both as protagonists and antagonists. Otherwise large parts of the setting that have been long established don't make a ton of sense.
From what I gather, at least from that thread they're giving the people what they want. And as a commercial enterprise I can't fault them that as disappointing at it is.
Quote from: theliel;18685713Mortals can never bring sufficient numbers to bear to take down even a Dragonblooded removes mortals as possible antagonists. You are now in full on D&D territory where anyone of any importance has to be This Strong to avoid utterly being squished and replaced with a functionary.
Because if no one can hurt you, and I take "if a mortal defeats a PC exalt then the Player screwed up" as "mortals are not a threat" then mortals are, effectively, window dressing. The Guild won't exist for very long - mortals are not a threat to exalted and it's trivially easy to murder your way into controlling it.
Armies are a pointless waste - the 100 dragonblooded are enough to scour an area clean of life as they move through. You don't even need the support structure with the proper survival charms.
You wind up with mortals, who are supposed to be 99% of the population, utterly pointless. They exist for no reason the PCs can fathom and exist to be objects of affection - toys to keep around to have something to talk to because they are as much a threat as your pet cricket.
This also means anything that can threaten an exalt, like say, a beastman horde or rakasha invasion is utterly unstoppable except by dragon blooded.
You now have a world full of utterly helpless individuals who will be squished by anything that can threaten an exalt. When the world is filled with Supermen don't expect Metropolis to last long.
There really isn't even a reason to form armies, they won't do anything. It means the first Solar who exalts to Halta or Linowan wins the war. Because mortals can't stop them and if there are Solars on both sides everyone loses because the Solars just lay waste to both countries because there is no defense against a Solar that isn't a Wyld Hunt or another Solar. This, again much like mid-high level D&D, becomes a game of rocket tag - whoever strikes first and hardest wins. Got kids? Dead. Got Wives? Dead. Because there's nothing to stop them dying. You can't be everywhere at once because force projection, but the normal method of force projection doesn't work (armies) because anything that isn't an exalted gets pwn'd by exalted.
This is not a good thing for a setting to have.
Of course, what the people want is largely based on bullshit gamer think. There are what, about 40,000 Exalts spread across Creation (with more land area than the Earth last I heard and the 2ed. They made 3rd larger). If mortals don't pose a threat to Exalts there is no need for armies... because I guess an Exalt is going to teleport anywhere something interesting is happening. Because they can't they can ever do. No mortal kings start wars or invasion.
There are no insurrections and other actions if there is not an Exalt involved. Otherwise mortal in Creation just sit around, bemoaning their lack of agency because they can't off a few selected people they're probably never encounter except as tall tales. No town guards because no one fears crime because its never committed because everyone fears a one in a million shot that a sympathetic exalt is going to show and kick their asses.
And Exalted have noting to do wander around, randomly killing kings for shits and giggles. Except for Dragonblooded who like to gather in group and roam the land, killing everything that moves.
For similar reason, any superhero settings with superhumans that can stand up to military level force must not have any armies or cops, right?
There aren't enough Exalts for the game to focus on Essence users but apparently there are enough for them to be present at every single possible interesting thing that occurs in Creation. Ever.
And, here's a hint: The Rakasha invasion -was- unstoppable until the Empress literally pulled out the big guns. Thaounds of DB with magical weapons and warstriders couldn't stop them, a bunch of mortals armed with steel and gumption sure as Hell wasn't. That's why huge chunks of Creation kinda vanished.
Beast men aren't "things that need an Exalt to stop". They're non essence using Mooks. Horrid mooks, but mooks non the less.
Not to mention just fucked up it is to think people only have value, agency and a reason to exist if they can kill you. Otherwise you can only care for them as "pets" because they're not important unless they can kick your ass. Seriously what kind of shit is that? And they've got the gall to look down their noses at D and D.
theliel is completely ignoring the fact that the exalted are opposed to each other. You think the dragon blooded of the realm want solars to change the world. Fuck no! Not even the siderials want that other than the gold faction and that faction is tiny compared to the bronze faction. That is only side one.
The solar side are broken up and hunted down. Yes while they are the most powerful exalted they are also the most limited due to the fact they start off with next to nothing. A solar would have peasant armies against real armies from real nations. Solars are powerful, but a full army of mortals can kill a solar easily. Mainly it will be hard for a solar, especially a beginning one, to fight off ten thousand well armed soldiers.
Third side are the lunars and half of them are mutated chaos beasts that lost their higher thoughts. They are no more than mere monsters of legend. Those lunars who stay sane and mutation free are spread out. Sure their beast men are powerful, but they are the second most powerful exalted. Not to mention the fae of the wyld are a constant threat.
Speaking about the wyld we don't know what they can do next. Right now they have the advantage and the element of surprise. There is millions of them and each one of them is more powerful than a mortal. Hell while in the wyld their princes are more powerful than dragon blooded. The only weakness they have is creation's ability to weaken them and if they stay too long the ability to kill the fae.
Finally the abyssals. The vast armies of the neverborn are powerful as they filled with insane oblivion ghosts, flesh golems, and whatever horrors they can produce. The abyssal exalted themselves are only equal to the solars since they are the dark reflection of solars. New magics and technology are being forged. The fact that creation is falling apart the question is why hasn't creation been destroyed yet. This leads to their weakness the deathlords themselves. Sure they are the ghosts of first age solars and have incredible knowledge that only the siderials would have. They, however, fight each other as much as they destroy their real enemy. The abuse of the deathlords had also convince many abyssals to betray their masters and aid the other side as well.
Five huge factions right there. The exalted do not have it easy as it is a five man wrestling match. Then again the billions of humans could get fed up and just end the exalted once and for all. There is maybe 10,000 to 11,000 exalted in the world. The mere mortals with numbers alone could destroy the exalted.
Not to mention that the world of Exalted is BIG really really big. Bigger than the real world which is itself MASSIVE far bigger than most people are really able to conceptualize.
Then we have the issue of groups of mortals. I'm actually ok with the idea of groups of mortals being able to challenge an Exalt. But that doesn't seem to be what they are talking about. They seem to want a mortal to be a challenge to a Exalt, which is very odd to me.
Notably if you read Mengtzu's posts (1782) you notice that despite all the talk it seems like the changes actually don't amount to much and you end up with things being pretty close how they were with 2e. So a lot of this seem to be the Developers and fans blowing smoke.
The responses about limiting the power of the Exalted just makes me even more convinced that it was a good thing I couldn't back the Kickstarter. I have lots of games on my shelf that let me play people a bit above the norm. Exalted doesn't need to be another of those.
Oh, well. If I ever decide to run another campaign in Creation, I still have all of my 1st and 2nd edition books to draw on for setting, and I can always use another (better) system. I looked at the example fight from earlier and, while it looks okay for a one-on-one, running a combat is going to be a nightmare when you scale up to five Exalted plus the opposition.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;812659Then we have the issue of groups of mortals. I'm actually ok with the idea of groups of mortals being able to challenge an Exalt. But that doesn't seem to be what they are talking about.
I ran a two-year campaign in 2nd edition, and that's how it was early on. I had five starting Solars and mortals were a threat for some time, though they always had to have a numbers advantage to pose any danger. And they worked well as backups for the real threats like DBs, too. But after the group started accumulating XP and Charms, they were completely outclassed. After 100 or so XP, the group's Dawn could tear through a dozen elite mortals without breaking a sweat (or wasting Essence). That didn't mean really large groups still didn't pose a threat or that mortals couldn't oppose the party in other ways, particularly through behind-the-scenes shenanigans that caused them trouble.
That, to me, just seems like a more fitting power level for the beings who kicked the crap out of the Primordials.
Groups of mortals posing a threat to beginning solars is okay. Mortals doing sneaky back stabby, or political changing things that can fuck solars late in the game is fine. I just have a issue that a single mere mortal poses a deadly threat to a solar as it destroys the fluff about solars.
Quote from: Snowman0147;812666Groups of mortals posing a threat to beginning solars is okay. Mortals doing sneaky back stabby, or political changing things that can fuck solars late in the game is fine. I just have a issue that a single mere mortal poses a deadly threat to a solar as it destroys the fluff about solars.
Yep. I find the idea that one of my characters that I've played for nearly 10 yrs at this point and has triple digit exp invested in martial arts and related combat abilities including a suite of custom charms and is approaching Essence 5 should still have to worry about a fight with the champion of the local mortal dojo kind of ridiculous.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;812659Not to mention that the world of Exalted is BIG really really big. Bigger than the real world which is itself MASSIVE far bigger than most people are really able to conceptualize.
Yeah, Exalts are pretty thin on the ground (wasn't that one of the complaints about making them the primary opposition?) and have their own shit to do to go around randomly picking on hapless mortals. And any mortal ruler that doesn't form an army or some sort of defense because he thinks some being (which are semi mythological to many) is just going to come and kill them all is a patently goofy idea based on thinking of the world as if everyone in it has both read the rule book and consciously knows they're characters in a role playing game.
Quote from: Brand55;812660The responses about limiting the power of the Exalted just makes me even more convinced that it was a good thing I couldn't back the Kickstarter. I have lots of games on my shelf that let me play people a bit above the norm. Exalted doesn't need to be another of those.
This is what really disappoints me too. I've played "slightly better than average" Joes quite a bit and, frankly there are better systems with less baggage to do so so I'm not seeing the selling point for Exalted as one of those.
This edition will be the last edition of Exalted. I know that is my personal opinion, but I am not lying here either. The fact that game is taking so long to be made is bad enough. They never kept their promises to streamlined the system and make it easier tells me I should stick to earlier editions. The fact they made it possible for a single mortal to kick a Solar exalted ass kills the only point to playing Exalted.
This is not brilliant work. In fact this is worst than second edition because as clunky as that system is they at least got the point in why your playing Exalted. This is too much of a power down. I was hoping for no more cheap perfect defenses, flurries, and instant death combos. I wasn't expecting nameless mortal killing off a solar exalted as if they are equals in battle.
I like a good hit of Schadenfreude as much as anyone but I'm really sure Exalted 3 will bomb. Due to the success of the Kickstarter it already has a big leg up and there are (or appear to be) allot of people that are seriously invested in this edition and loving practically every words the Developers say. People like myself appear to outliers and cranks (relatively) as far as those that still give a shit about Exalted one way or the other go.
Also all my requests of a refund have been ignored. They could at least tell me, "No, STFU! LOL" or something.
Quote from: Snowman0147;812721This edition will be the last edition of Exalted. I know that is my personal opinion, but I am not lying here either.
Shit, I wouldn't be surprised if 2e turns out to be the last edition.
This game will never recover from the damage done by its fandom over at the WW boards and RPGnet.
Pity. I like Exalted's premise and setting.
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;812799Also all my requests of a refund have been ignored. They could at least tell me, "No, STFU! LOL" or something.
Yeah, they've it abundantly (and someone smugly) clear that that ship sailed a long time ago. I've never felt comfortable with the KS concept and consider the Exalted development good evidence of why. That they seem to, while not directly encouraging, allow the belief the fester that the KS was for a 3rd edition at all and not just for fancy add ons seems a little shady
Quote from: The Butcher;812805Shit, I wouldn't be surprised if 2e turns out to be the last edition.
This game will never recover from the damage done by its fandom over at the WW boards and RPGnet.
Pity. I like Exalted's premise and setting.
I'm really not sure. The fanbase is so rabid. I guess the real proof will be the reaction to the system when it comes out. Whenever that will be.
Quote from: Nexus;812831I'm really not sure. The fanbase is so rabid. I guess the real proof will be the reaction to the system when it comes out. Whenever that will be.
You mean the same fan base that admitted they really don't want to play role playing games?
Quote from: Snowman0147;812842You mean the same fan base that admitted they really don't want to play role playing games?
I'd missed that little chestnut. When did it come up?
A year, or a half ago I think. There was this post at rpg.net about some person admitting to the fact and only used rpgs as means to make novels. Then there was this big hug fest in that site.
Quote from: Nexus;812831I'm really not sure. The fanbase is so rabid. I guess the real proof will be the reaction to the system when it comes out. Whenever that will be.
Ex3 will sell in huge numbers, and it will be hated, and the fan base will devour itself over split hairs and rules interpretations.
And that's assuming it's an actually good a playable game, mind you.
Exalted will do fine because of its rabid fans and the fact it basically has one of the primary rpg forums completely in its corner. Lots of people will gush over the new system (just as they initially did when 2nd edition was new), and any critics will have to walk a fine line to keep from bringing the mods down on their heads. I remember well how Holden and some others attacked those who criticized Return of the Scarlet Empress, and that was before basically everyone working on Exalted 3rd became a moderator.
Whether or not there's ever another edition is something I don't think anyone can guess at right now. There definitely won't be one anytime soon, but in ten years? There's no telling who will even own Exalted by then.
Quote from: Brand55;812893Exalted will do fine because of its rabid fans and the fact it basically has one of the primary rpg forums completely in its corner. Lots of people will gush over the new system (just as they initially did when 2nd edition was new), and any critics will have to walk a fine line to keep from bringing the mods down on their heads. I remember well how Holden and some others attacked those who criticized Return of the Scarlet Empress, and that was before basically everyone working on Exalted 3rd became a moderator.
And of course, they both ridicule that book as crap now and no one seems to remember. Like any of their flip flops over the course of the book. Hell, isn't Holden one of the "Ink Monkeys" some of the biggest contributors to the technomagic "Rpg.net Exalted" flavor they're not rolling their eyes about?
QuoteWhether or not there's ever another edition is something I don't think anyone can guess at right now. There definitely won't be one anytime soon, but in ten years? There's no telling who will even own Exalted by then.
I'll be curious to see what Exalted will "supposed to have been all along' by then.
Well, Nexus, going by the playtest combat you posted in the other thread, it seems like this is going to be 2nd Edition Exalted with a few changes in the terminology.
Which I already have. Which is a giant pain in the ass to run.
Quote from: Nexus;812899And of course, they both ridicule that book as crap now and no one seems to remember. Like any of their flip flops over the course of the book. Hell, isn't Holden one of the "Ink Monkeys" some of the biggest contributors to the technomagic "Rpg.net Exalted" flavor they're not rolling their eyes about?
I know Holden did work on RotSE and the Alchemical stuff, but my group was losing interest by late 2E so I can't really say what all he contributed. I just know I downloaded the Scroll of Errata in the hope it would fix the game and make it playable again, and when I saw just how freakin' huge the fixes were it made me swear off the baseline system.
I'd love to do another Exalted game sometime, but if I do it will be with Qwixalted or a modified Scarlet Heroes, or possibly my own expanded version of the original Quickstart.
Quote from: Nexus;812899I'll be curious to see what Exalted will "supposed to have been all along' by then.
Funnily enough, I've recently started reading my 1E stuff again. Almost immediately I found this little gem:
Quote from: Exalted 1E Core page 21High and Low
The life of one of the Solar Exalted is a whirl of cataclysmic ups and downs. Suddenly, an individual who was merely gifted is Exalted to tremendous stature. The Chosen are unaging and of unfailing health. They possess tremendous physical stamina and can quickly heal from even the most grievous wounds. In all things, they are excellent, and in that which they favor, they are unexcelled. No mortal could hope to best one in combat, and the Solars may challenge the mettle of the Celestial Exalted or bring the tyrannical Realm to its knees. In these individuals is the power to change history and remake the world.
Emphasis mine. I know the paragraph is a bit grandiose, but it's talking about relatively new Solars. It seems pretty clear to me that, regardless of what quotes one can dig up, the original intention of the game was for the Exalted not to be threatened by one or two mortals, even very skilled ones.
Quote from: Brand55;812908Emphasis mine. I know the paragraph is a bit grandiose, but it's talking about relatively new Solars. It seems pretty clear to me that, regardless of what quotes one can dig up, the original intention of the game was for the Exalted not to be threatened by one or two mortals, even very skilled ones.
Yeah. If that was pure hype, it was irresponsible hype. Hell, I remember people complaining about Solars not being strong enough back in those days.
If they're changing the style of the game, fine but don't tell me that's what its always been and I'm doing it wrong.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;812904Well, Nexus, going by the playtest combat you posted in the other thread, it seems like this is going to be 2nd Edition Exalted with a few changes in the terminology.
Which I already have. Which is a giant pain in the ass to run.
But it's been "rebuilt from the ground up", so everything will be fine. Just trust them.
All of this is what prompted me to just get together and start creating my own "Exalted" inspired game. I've been gaming long enough now, and I've written a few things professionally, I've really gotten to "Well, why the hell not?" with my player base.
Exalted 1st ed is probably still the best version of the game, system and setting wise, even if there are massive land mines to stay away from.
I been working on my home made system and I found out that doing epic games in which the player characters can be chosen of the gods that far exceed the rest of humanity is easy. It is all about scales which I use two. Divinity is mortal (0), blessed (1), sanctified (2), exalted (3), divine (4), myth (5), and legendary (6). The other scale is the size which is tiny (1), small (2), medium (3), huge (4), and massive (5).
There is a reason for numbers. When your pc goes into conflict you add the scales. Say your pc is average size (aka human) and was was chosen by one of the leading gods in the pantheon which makes you divine in scale. That is total of 7. Your npc opponent is giant that stands a good hundred feet and can throw down lightning bolts. His size is massive and is only exalted for a total of 8. The giant has a advantage over our player character.
Now against a group of mortals which would be huge size and no divinity the player character is going to plow that group of mortals. Like it would be really easy fight.
Quote from: Nexus;812638From what I gather, at least from that thread they're giving the people what they want. And as a commercial enterprise I can't fault them that as disappointing at it is.
To be fair, "give the people what they want" works commercially only so far as "the people" represent a broad enough group to actually support your enterprise.
I would not be surprised to discover that the folk on TBP who are still big-time into Exalted represent only a particular wing of the fanbase. (After all, it's a terrible error to assume that
any RPG forum represents the general opinions of gamers as a whole.)
I would be even less surprised to discover that pandering excessively to RPG.net Exalted fans of the type currently dominant in that thread results in a game which a few love but which many dislike. As the D&D 4E debacle taught us, going for "loved by a few" over "liked by many" might work if you are an indie publisher, but it's not going to cut the mustard if you want your game to be a major player in the industry.
Yeah, i m also still very sceptical about the "what the fans want" thing. The loud and vocal part on rpg.net and the Onyx Path forums are surely not few in number but i am not sure it's enough in the end (the little devil sitting on my left should says he hopes it will not be). I guess they are lucky they did the KS when they did it...because if we had that much "insight" into what EX3e would become, i doubt they would have gotten the big sum they got ...well, back then.
It will be interesting to see how the next EX KS will go.
And i am still laughing (although with one very very sad voice inside while doing so) about the BS of "Building it from the ground up" and "streamlining it".
Quote from: Anglachel;813053Yeah, i m also still very sceptical about the "what the fans want" thing. The loud and vocal part on rpg.net and the Onyx Path forums are surely not few in number but i am not sure it's enough in the end (the little devil sitting on my left should says he hopes it will not be). I guess they are lucky they did the KS when they did it...because if we had that much "insight" into what EX3e would become, i doubt they would have gotten the big sum they got ...well, back then.
It will be interesting to see how the next EX KS will go.
And i am still laughing (although with one very very sad voice inside while doing so) about the BS of "Building it from the ground up" and "streamlining it".
OP's often absurd prices (No free PDF when buying a $100 book? Really?) and the mess that was the V20 Companion Kickstarter haven't affected them negatively from what I've seen, so I doubt the issues with Exalted will carry any ramifications for them, either. Exalted/WoD has some of the most rabid fans out there.
Technically, "rebuilt from the ground up" is actually pretty accurate. See, they didn't build something new. They used the old parts and put them back together in a very similar shape with some tweaks and changes. The framework of the Storyteller system isn't even close to the best way to handle the sorts of stories that usually crop up in Exalted, so I was very disappointed when I heard they were keeping it.
Quote from: Kiero;812924But it's been "rebuilt from the ground up", so everything will be fine. Just trust them.
I sometimes wonder if the definition of 'rebuilt' shifted at some point.
Seeing what is happening w/ Exalted, and happened with Dark Heresy 2, and what might happen w/ LotFP's new referee book, are we sure that mass community involvement makes for good products?
I wonder if what happens is a form of rent-seeking, which is the idea (economics) that when you have focused benefits and diffuse costs, you get a lot of pressure/activity from the people who get the focused benefits, so you end up implementing a thing for just a subset of the people. However, I'm still old school and think that works that implement one or a handful of people's visions are often better than group consensus design.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;813079Seeing what is happening w/ Exalted, and happened with Dark Heresy 2, and what might happen w/ LotFP's new referee book, are we sure that mass community involvement makes for good products?
Of course it doesn't. The loudest, shrillest voices are the ones that get heard, because they're the most vocal. The people who are fine with the game as it is just don't speak up, or they speak up and get argued back into silence.
Projects need strong vision in order to stay coherent and get finished; and yeah, some of that can come from outside, but the voices worth listening to are few and far between. The mob can't provide clarity and focus.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;813079Seeing what is happening w/ Exalted, and happened with Dark Heresy 2, and what might happen w/ LotFP's new referee book, are we sure that mass community involvement makes for good products?
What's might happen with the LotFP book?
And while we're at it, what's the complaint with DH2?
I'm out of the loop on the disappointment parade for those.
Quote from: Simlasa;813102What's might happen with the LotFP book?
And while we're at it, what's the complaint with DH2?
I'm out of the loop on the disappointment parade for those.
iirc, DH2's open payta was quite a departure from the original mechanics-wise (But much less so than WFRP3), and people whined about it. So DH2 eventually became basically just DH1 with new art, rather than a new game.
And it is mostly very good art, don't get me wrong. The khornate guardsman on page 291 may be one of my favourite pieces of RPG art.
(I kinda regret not buying a copy of the beta when I had the chance, now. Oh well.)
I can speak for DH2 since I was part of it. The original dark heresy 2 was trying new things. Most of them good in my opinion. I love character creation and the talent trees. I love how elite advances are new trees that have exclusive talents. My only complaint was the horrible combat system and the shitty rate of fire rules.
I should know because at first glance I knew that the new damage rules is going to slow down the fucking game all in the name of narration. Fuck narration because wounds were good enough, simple, and quick. Actions points were decent and lead to tactical game play. The problem was that in the middle of combat my table had to waste a hour to figure out rate of fire. We never had this issue in older Warhammer 40K rpgs. Combat was clunky mess and the forums didn't like it.
So we where at first ignored and had the narration fanboyz tell us to shut the fuck up. Fantasy Flight only change the game system because they brought it over to gencon and guess what happen? People hated the new combat system in gencon. It had to be the case because as soon as they got out of gencon Dark Heresy 2 went back to the drawing board.
What they came out is basicly a Only War clone only with better character creation, some additional rules that are kinda useless, and the excellent elite advances talent trees filled with exclusive talents. While many of us hated the combat system of the old Dark Heresy 2 we really didn't want to see a Only War clone either. This also piss off the narration fanboyz and they made some rage posts during the time of the new beta.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;813079Seeing what is happening w/ Exalted, and happened with Dark Heresy 2, and what might happen w/ LotFP's new referee book, are we sure that mass community involvement makes for good products?
I wonder if what happens is a form of rent-seeking, which is the idea (economics) that when you have focused benefits and diffuse costs, you get a lot of pressure/activity from the people who get the focused benefits, so you end up implementing a thing for just a subset of the people. However, I'm still old school and think that works that implement one or a handful of people's visions are often better than group consensus design.
I think 5E is a testament to what good community feedback can do. Emphasis on "good". And their surveys were only barely good. But I think they successfully found the sweet spots for their fans. 5E could have been a fair amount better for *me*, but for the community as a whole, I think it turned out fantastic. Many anti-5E asshats at TBP were/are big fans of Exalted 3 and its designers and claimed Mearls and Co were doing it wrong for 5E and that Ex3 was doing it the right way. I'm curious to see if the OPP crew's approach makes a worthwhile product, because Mearls' approach certainly did.
The most important thing I think of Mearls' approach is to definitely not give much weight to forums and other such communities. Forums gave us 4E and the myopic focus on builds, balance, and battle. I'm glad someone woke the WotC group up, and give at least partial credit to the "consultants".
Quote from: Obeeron;813143The most important thing I think of Mearls' approach is to definitely not give much weight to forums and other such communities. Forums gave us 4E and the myopic focus on builds, balance, and battle. I'm glad someone woke the WotC group up, and give at least partial credit to the "consultants".
That is, the people who actually like and buy games. :D
JG
Quote from: Warboss Squee;813074I sometimes wonder if the definition of 'rebuilt' shifted at some point.
Or more likely, their idea of rebuilt doesn't match that of anyone outside the echo chamber.
Quote from: Kiero;813202Or more likely, their idea of rebuilt doesn't match that of anyone outside the echo chamber.
Nothing, but the truth had been spoken in this post.
Is it just me or does it seem like a good chunk of the questions in the "Ask a Developer" threads are being answered by Isator Levie and not a Developer (Holden or hatewheeek/John Morke)?
Quote from: Nexus;813320Is it just me or does it seem like a good chunk of the questions in the "Ask a Developer" threads are being answered by Isator Levie and not a Developer (Holden or hatewheeek/John Morke)?
Par the course.
Who IS Holden anyway? The only thing I recall about him is he was some random poster on the old WW forums with a hamster avatar. And then, bam, overnight he's one of the Twin God Kings of Exalted.
Actually I don't know how he got promoted I been in those old forums. It just seems white wolf pick notice him one day and just said, "Eh... What can go wrong?"
Basically, yeah. He was one of the more frequent posters on the old WW forums and eventually got tapped to work as a freelancer. This was later in 2E's run when the system had become an over-complicated dung heap and most people with any sense wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Among the faithful, he's supposed to be some sort of a god when it comes to RPG mechanics, but I've never liked adding more complications to try to balance things out.
I believe his first work for WW was on the Alchemicals book, though I could be wrong. By the time he started actually working on official products, my interest in the game was waning and my group was looking to move on to a game with combat that didn't take 4+ hours.
Quote from: Brand55;813363I believe his first work for WW was on the Alchemicals book, though I could be wrong. By the time he started actually working on official products, my interest in the game was waning and my group was looking to move on to a game with combat that didn't take 4+ hours.
So D&D 4E? ;)
From what I understand is Holden and the rest of the "Ink Monkies" started doing errata for Exalted for free on their own, and eventually white wolf decided to hire them based on the merits of the work.
As for Isator Levie, well he'd probably give his right hand to be part of the Exalted Crew himself, so it's to be expected.
Quote from: Bren;813367So D&D 4E? ;)
Heh, not quite. Another GM tried to get a 4E game going while I was doing Exalted. That didn't last very long. I think we managed two sessions before deciding 4E wasn't for us.
Quote from: Brand55;813363Basically, yeah. He was one of the more frequent posters on the old WW forums and eventually got tapped to work as a freelancer. This was later in 2E's run when the system had become an over-complicated dung heap and most people with any sense wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Among the faithful, he's supposed to be some sort of a god when it comes to RPG mechanics, but I've never liked adding more complications to try to balance things out.
Absolute Inextricable Rules Complication!
Hey this could be a American success story if it wasn't for the fact that it is a failure.
Picking people up to work on the official line because they are frequent posters to the company boards can be a good way to unearth new talent - especially if their unofficial stuff is awesome. That's how i got picked up for WFRP v2 a few years back. ;)
Okay so you are a great American success story in the small scale. That still doesn't mean that Holden was successful.
Quote from: Brand55;813363Among the faithful, he's supposed to be some sort of a god when it comes to RPG mechanics, ...
lol...yeah, no, just no. None of the Ex3e Team has any clue about mechanics. They think they do but i bet all of them have, at best, a highschool understanding of mathematics. And it shows.
Or maybe i'm unfair...and they had to work with that horrible mess and just did not achieve to make it any better.
The sad thing is, they had the chance to get a real mechanics guy into the team...there were a couple to chose from, even on rpg.net (Jon Chung, for example)...but they did not. Chance squandered.
Quote from: Snowman0147;813444Okay so you are a great American success story in the small scale. That still doesn't mean that Holden was successful.
I'm not American. :D
You still know what I mean. You work hard to get that attention and respect to be hired to do the game you wanted.
Wow. I am even less impressed with Holden now than before but it does explain some of his attitude.
Did they just announce another new Exalted type? How many are they going to jam into the setting? I guess that's another reason to power them down to glowing pulp fantasy heroes instead of demigods. They are getting kind of thick on the ground at this point.
Edit: I was wrong. Its two more types.
Quote Originally Posted by hatewheel
The Lunar “opposite” type, I don’t want to say yes or no. I’ll answer more questions after the core drops. As others have said though, you might be confused if you think of them as opposites. Also, there are two new types of Exalts for the Lunars, not just one.
Quote from: Nexus;814333Did they just announce another new Exalted type? How many are they going to jam into the setting? I guess that's another reason to power them down to glowing pulp fantasy heroes instead of demigods. They are getting kind of thick on the ground at this point.
Edit: I was wrong. Its two more types.
Quote Originally Posted by hatewheel
The Lunar "opposite" type, I don't want to say yes or no. I'll answer more questions after the core drops. As others have said though, you might be confused if you think of them as opposites. Also, there are two new types of Exalts for the Lunars, not just one.
Considering the playtest document floating around was 950 something pages, without art and formatting....
I honestly wonder if they're going to trim that down any or reduce the number of abilities..
They already introduced Liminals and Exigents, I suppose throwing in yet more Exalted types is par for the course now.
I think Exigents are a cool idea, don't get me wrong, but Liminals is clearly someone throwing their love of Promethean the Created into the ring.
And the Getiman Exalted (tied to Sidereals, I believe) and something do with Niboreans?
And apparently two more as yet unnamed.
Wow... My suggestion is simple. Fix the game first. Secondly just focus on the five exalted types that been around for all of the editions. Then maybe we can talk about the extras and that is a huge maybe. These guys are just fucking shit it.
Quote from: Snowman0147;814394Wow... My suggestion is simple. Fix the game first. Secondly just focus on the five exalted types that been around for all of the editions. Then maybe we can talk about the extras and that is a huge maybe. These guys are just fucking shit it.
Exactly. I'd be ticked if I was actually planning to use 3E. All of these extra splat books will do nothing but delay the release of the books I'd really want. It surprises me because I thought these guys were supposed to be fans of Exalted. Most fans I know don't want to completely change the settings they supposedly love.
I really love how if the "Ask the Developers" thread contains too much dissent or actual questions or doubt, there's a passive aggressive urging to "get it back on topic" but they'll let it ramble on for pages about whatever random anime or novel the developers want to talk about.
It is as if they have something to hide.
I've been running a 1st edition game for a couple of months now, and if it had been up to me beforehand (ha) I would have held it to Terrestrials, Exalted, and Abyssal. In fact, that's about what it's going to be if I keep running it because due to the White Wolf Compleationist Splatbook Extravaganza school of game design, you'd need to spend at least 2 full years studying all the available options to get a good grasp on it as a player, much less as a GM who had to explain/wrangle the whole mess into a coherent game.
That said, I do still love the setting, and the players seem to be having fun... but good god, man, do we really need to know the entire history of the Universe?
So, in short, I guess Exalted can be fun if you can handle it, so scale it down to the level you're comfortable with. It helps if the players don't bother reading/learning much about The Whole Shebang, so they don't know what they're missing.
Just watch out for those uper mortals since they can take down a dawn caste all alone.
Uper: means your uber only to the fact that every thing else got down graded.
If that is not a word it should be a word. Put that word into Webster people. Just make it happen.
That Liminals, two Lunar foils, the Sidereal foil, and Exigents exist now has been spoiled a while back just so you know.
On deadly fights and comparison to 2nd edition talk- I'm not a mechanics person and even I understood what was being said there. 1st edition Sidereals and Solars had the best stuff for running roughshod over the combat system and winning through sheer power. 2nd edition Solars continued that(and for the potential idiots sucking down their own koolaid in this thread it should be pointed out that the expansion Charms the current development team made didn't help the matter. In fact it made it worse). The same people that did that also admitted a few things in regards to that problem with the base resolution systems and the Charm system.
It's not hard to see that the comment is in line with the idea that Charms and how they actually interact with the base combat system don't allow you(in their opinion) run roughshod unstoppably over that system as you could in 2nd edition. That, full stop, is a good thing.
If my choice is wait and see, get the material once I get the pdf, test it and see how it actually works out. OR wildly speculate using bizarre logic choices on how "mortals totally pwn! Dawn Herakles now!" Gee fellas I can only imagine which one I'll pick. Could end up being a shit system. I'll wait and see thanks.
Quote from: MrMephistopheles;814479That Liminals, two Lunar foils, the Sidereal foil, and Exigents exist now has been spoiled a while back just so you know.
On deadly fights and comparison to 2nd edition talk- I'm not a mechanics person and even I understood what was being said there. 1st edition Sidereals and Solars had the best stuff for running roughshod over the combat system and winning through sheer power. 2nd edition Solars continued that(and for the potential idiots sucking down their own koolaid in this thread it should be pointed out that the expansion Charms the current development team made didn't help the matter. In fact it made it worse). The same people that did that also admitted a few things in regards to that problem with the base resolution systems and the Charm system.
It's not hard to see that the comment is in line with the idea that Charms and how they actually interact with the base combat system don't allow you(in their opinion) run roughshod unstoppably over that system as you could in 2nd edition. That, full stop, is a good thing.
If my choice is wait and see, get the material once I get the pdf, test it and see how it actually works out. OR wildly speculate using bizarre logic choices on how "mortals totally pwn! Dawn Herakles now!" Gee fellas I can only imagine which one I'll pick. Could end up being a shit system. I'll wait and see thanks.
From what I saw from the Playtest material, the whole idea of humans somehow having a chance against the Exalted is kinda B.S. I think they're saying it more to appease the people who want that more than any truth of the matter..
It seems like as the playtest materials were written, Exalted all get an inherent excellency with every favored ability...
Well since at least one of those is always going to be a Combat skill of some kind...it's really all you need to kill any mortal you come across. The Excellency alone will let you take down any mortal one on one... So I don't get this whole "Mortals are going to kill Exalted!" thing there saying..
Groups of Mortals might be able to, but none of them 1 on 1 will.
Quote from: MrMephistopheles;814479Could end up being a shit system. I'll wait and see thanks.
There's no "could" about it. They made the wrong design choice right at the start, by failing to bin the shitty Storyteller system, which doesn't scale up
at all, and starting from scratch. Not "rebuilding from the ground up" (of which there's little evidence so far they've really done anything of the sort), but flushing the crap away and starting all over again with something actually purpose-built for the task. Doesn't matter how much glitter and polish you put on a turd, it's still a turd.
As for waiting and seeing, well, perhaps in 2017 you might get to do that. Or maybe 2018. Or 2025. Or never. Good luck with that.
Quote from: MrMephistopheles;814479That Liminals, two Lunar foils, the Sidereal foil, and Exigents exist now has been spoiled a while back just so you know.
Don't forget Getimanns, or however you spell it. I wasn't aware of the two Lunar "foils" until recently and judging from the reaction in the thread I wasn't alone in that. Information about the game has been incredibly spotty and, prone to change. That's one of things that pissing people off. You just don't get to hear about on rpg.net.
QuoteOn deadly fights and comparison to 2nd edition talk- I'm not a mechanics person and even I understood what was being said there. 1st edition Sidereals and Solars had the best stuff for running roughshod over the combat system and winning through sheer power. 2nd edition Solars continued that(and for the potential idiots sucking down their own koolaid in this thread it should be pointed out that the expansion Charms the current development team made didn't help the matter. In fact it made it worse). The same people that did that also admitted a few things in regards to that problem with the base resolution systems and the Charm system.
I guess this is in your totally unbiased and objective opinion, right? :)
Idiots sucking down their own "kool aid? Oh the irony. You're black too, Kettle. That thread on rpg.net borders on masturbatory.
QuoteIt's not hard to see that the comment is in line with the idea that Charms and how they actually interact with the base combat system don't allow you(in their opinion) run roughshod unstoppably over that system as you could in 2nd edition. That, full stop, is a good thing.
The problem with 2ed combat wasn't that it made characters "too powerful" but that it didn't work and produced dull, repetitive fights. That Exalts could power through mortals. Exalts -should- win through sheer power. That was kinda the point to being a Demigod. Not being a Conan rip off that glowed from time to time. It is, or was a game about dealing with power and its consequences.
QuoteIf my choice is wait and see, get the material once I get the pdf, test it and see how it actually works out. OR wildly speculate using bizarre logic choices on how "mortals totally pwn! Dawn Herakles now!" Gee fellas I can only imagine which one I'll pick. Could end up being a shit system. I'll wait and see thanks.
Good luck with that. If you've already given them your money, you don't have a choice so I guess remaining optimistic is the most helpful thing to do.
And what bizarre logic is that? Using what has actually been said about how things work in no uncertain terms like mortals are always a threat to Exalts and that the power levels have been toned down to make mortals more dangerous, that a mortal can seriously threaten, even kill an Exalt?
That's not inferred from bizarre logic. That's been said by the guys writing the game. I've heard next to nothing about the game that makes me in anyway positive about what they're producing. If some people like it good for them but I not holding my breath. I haven't been that impressed with the version of the system I have seen. But like I've said before, I'll see what the final version looks like but I don't get the giddy "It'll be AWESOME!" optimism, not for what I want and the evidence and hints so far.
Quote from: Orphan81;814488From what I saw from the Playtest material, the whole idea of humans somehow having a chance against the Exalted is kinda B.S. I think they're saying it more to appease the people who want that more than any truth of the matter..
It seems like as the playtest materials were written, Exalted all get an inherent excellency with every favored ability...
Well since at least one of those is always going to be a Combat skill of some kind...it's really all you need to kill any mortal you come across. The Excellency alone will let you take down any mortal one on one... So I don't get this whole "Mortals are going to kill Exalted!" thing there saying..
Groups of Mortals might be able to, but none of them 1 on 1 will.
Its very much a numbers game from what I can tell. One on one, in a situation where you don't have to hold back. A combat focused Exalt might be able to steam roll your typical mortal, but they'll burn through resources an the hero to zero aspect of Essence is still very much in play so you'll be victorious but weakened and more vulnerable (and likely glowing) so it likely to become a case of "win the battle, lose the war". And there's still a fair chance of just getting beaten by things more than mooks.
And change the odds even to two on one and the situation and odds in the Exalts favor decline rapidly. What would be termed "persistent defenses" in 2ed are drastically cut back making defense against multiple opponents a more expensive endeavor and penalties can rack up fast. Call me a crazed power gamer but I do think being defined as the warriors of Gods and some of the most powerful beings in the setting should be able to handle more than one trained town guards without being overly pressed as it looks on paper.
But I do want to run some test fights at some point but the current Exalt vs Exalt battle is going so slowly the final pdf might actually be out by the time its over.
Quote from: Kiero;814489There's no "could" about it. They made the wrong design choice right at the start, by failing to bin the shitty Storyteller system, which doesn't scale up at all, and starting from scratch.
I really think that's the real reason (or a major one) for the power down. Storyteller doesn't handle high end games very well. That's been true of all the iterations of it I've played with Scion and Aberrant being particularly egregious examples. So much so that the fact effected the game's presentation and reception, IMO, when players and the developers struggled to get the mechanics and the fluff to match up.
Quote from: Orphan81;814488From what I saw from the Playtest material, the whole idea of humans somehow having a chance against the Exalted is kinda B.S. I think they're saying it more to appease the people who want that more than any truth of the matter..
It seems like as the playtest materials were written, Exalted all get an inherent excellency with every favored ability...
Well since at least one of those is always going to be a Combat skill of some kind...it's really all you need to kill any mortal you come across. The Excellency alone will let you take down any mortal one on one... So I don't get this whole "Mortals are going to kill Exalted!" thing there saying..
Groups of Mortals might be able to, but none of them 1 on 1 will.
"I've looked at an old pre revisions document I pirated and thus have a deep understanding of the combat system and it's capabilities. Congratulations.
QuoteThere's no "could" about it. They made the wrong design choice right at the start, by failing to bin the shitty Storyteller system, which doesn't scale up at all, and starting from scratch. Not "rebuilding from the ground up" (of which there's little evidence so far they've really done anything of the sort), but flushing the crap away and starting all over again with something actually purpose-built for the task. Doesn't matter how much glitter and polish you put on a turd, it's still a turd.
You're on the design team? Sweet.
QuoteAs for waiting and seeing, well, perhaps in 2017 you might get to do that. Or maybe 2018. Or 2025. Or never. Good luck with that.
Today 03:10 AM
Or about a month? Yeah I'm going with a month sport.
QuoteI guess this is in your totally unbiased and objective opinion, right?
Idiots sucking down their own "kool aid? Oh the irony. You're black too, Kettle. That thread on rpg.net borders on masturbatory.
Potential sport, you really need to learn to read.
QuoteDon't forget Getimanns, or however you spell it. I wasn't aware of the two Lunar "foils" until recently and judging from the reaction in the thread I wasn't alone in that. Information about the game has been incredibly spotty and, prone to change. That's one of things that pissing people off. You just don't get to hear about on rpg.net.
The Gets are the Sidereal foil, keep up sport.
QuoteThe problem with 2ed combat wasn't that it made characters "too powerful" but that it didn't work and produced dull, repetitive fights. That Exalts could power through mortals. Exalts -should- win through sheer power. That was kinda the point to being a Demigod. Not being a Conan rip off that glowed from time to time. It is, or was a game about dealing with power and its consequences.
Finish the thought sport. It produced dull combat because mote economy was a necessary outgrowth of paranoid combat which was an outgrowth of the lethality and Solars btw had the best tools for dealing with it.
So far I'm just seeing a bunch of people with their heads stuck so far up their own asses they don't even realize their confirmation bias. Good luck dwelling in this shithole corner of the internet no one cares about.
Quote from: MrMephistopheles;814543You're on the design team? Sweet.
It doesn't take being on the design team to think Storyteller sucks as a system for Exalted so using...Storyteller with a little glitter and new bits isn't a good choice.
.
QuoteThe Gets are the Sidereal foil, keep up sport.
The subject was new types of Exalted being introduced. Take your own advice. :)
QuoteFinish the thought sport.
Sure. 2ed combat was a dull war of attrition which 3rd seem to be as well except for having more things to track and a initiative system that doesn't require its own special tool but is just a PIA. So there's that. I guess.
What that has to with dropping the power level and scope of the game I have little idea aside from the shitty Storyteller scales high really poorly.
So far I'm just seeing a bunch of people with their heads stuck so far up their own asses they don't even realize their confirmation bias. Good luck dwelling in this shithole corner of the internet no one cares about.[/QUOTE]
Ooo, somebody is cranky... :)
Look I understand. You;re emotionally and perhaps financially invested in this impending sinkhole so you've got to blow off steam by showing us all how big your internet balls are by calling us scandalous names like "sport" :)
Nerdrage happens to us all at some point.
Or maybe you're just an asshole?
At least in this "shithole" you can do so without sucking mod dick on an increasingly irrelevant site that's becoming a joke. And I'm having a Hell of time here. Thank you! Try it for awhile you might like it. I mean, this rant of yours might have gotten you banned over the TBP. Maybe because it was directed at approved targets.
And better your head up your own ass than your nose wedged firmly between Holden and Morke's buttocks.
But since we're assigning nicknames, can I call you Bubbles?
Quote from: MrMephistopheles;814543You're on the design team? Sweet.
Right, because they're the only people with the skill and nous to recognise a turd when they see it. Never mind that a not-insignificant number of supposed "developers" of any system display little understanding of how their games actually work. Or of having done any meaningful playtesting.
But hey, keep telling yourself those gurus know exactly what they're doing and will somehow manage to contort one of the worst systems ever designed for doing scale into something salvageable. Let alone playable.
Quote from: MrMephistopheles;814543Or about a month? Yeah I'm going with a month sport.
You can dream, you're already swept up in the delusion that Ex3 will be anything but crap.
Quote from: Nexus;814549But since we're assigning nicknames, can I call you Bubbles?
I'm for calling him Bubbles... Yes Bubbles is fine with me.
Anyway I do agree with your earlier points, it really does seem like if you throw 2 competent mortals at an Exalted, they're going to be in serious trouble, after seeing what we know so far about the combat rules.
The other thing that worries me, is like you stated earlier, keeping track of all the fiddly bits in combat..
As it was, Exalted in 1st edition and gawd forbid let alone 2nd edition, was always difficult in terms of keeping every NPC straight with all of their abilities, mote pools, charms, and weapon stats..
But this one seems like it's going to be even worse...2 health tracks for every character, one of which fluctuates from action to action, regenerating essence pools...It doesn't seem like it'll be very friendly to the Storyteller..
There's a part of me that looks at the rules and says "If I were 22 years old again...and had lots of free time with my friends once more...this might be awesome.."
But at 33 and only a few hours a week (When that) to run games for my friends, I just don't think I have the time to invest in this kind of game anymore.
Quote from: Orphan81;814556Anyway I do agree with your earlier points, it really does seem like if you throw 2 competent mortals at an Exalted, they're going to be in serious trouble, after seeing what we know so far about the combat rules.
Yeah, In the end it seems to boil down to expectations. Calling the Exalted "Superheroes" just doesn't ring true to me when they have to be very concerned about fighting "mundanes" even if its not "as" concerned as another mundane. I'm used to playing characters that are simply somewhat ahead of the curve. Its not what I signed up for with Exalted.
A similar issue comes up with the "gods". Gods in Exalted would be "spirits" or just plain monsters in most other fantasy games, not what many think of when they imagine gods (or Gods). Eh, its a setting thing but seems allot like a similar bait and switch to Aberrant.
Quote from: Orphan81;814556There's a part of me that looks at the rules and says "If I were 22 years old again...and had lots of free time with my friends once more...this might be awesome.."
In fairness, that might be their target market.
One thing that would definitely help and wouldn't be hard to implement is simplifying some of the charms. Allot of them, at least in combat, are very conditional with little "gotcha" clauses that are easy to forget.
Quote from: MrMephistopheles;814543So far I'm just seeing a bunch of people with their heads stuck so far up their own asses they don't even realize their confirmation bias. Good luck dwelling in this shithole corner of the internet no one cares about.
Apparently YOU cared enough to write. ;)
JG
Quote from: Kiero;814552You can dream, you're already swept up in the delusion that Ex3 will be anything but crap.
It might be a month. Eventually one of the proposed release dates won't be bullshit. But I wouldn't bet any money on it and feel a little sorry for those that in effect have.
*rubs face* Well a mortal can kill an Exalted but it would take suprise or a lot of them fighting as a unit with enough Magnitude to over whelm the Exalted initiative recovery. (Doable). Oooor a quick draw expert forcing a clash attack on the Exalt. But doing that will most likely kill the mortal to.
If an Exalt is built right for mass combat and dealing with surprises you'll need some magic. Either a friendly god, ghosts, or another Exalt.
I can see why a it takes the Wyld hunt using a team of DBs to force a Solar to no init leaving him/her open to killing blows. They would have enough essence to recover for a while...but eventually stunts and essence refresh won't be enough.
I can't go into specifics until the pdf drops, but I can say I love the new abstractions for combat and it flows nicely. One thing that will help is everyone having a d20 at the table to keep track of current init. Old MtG counters will be a godsend. Which is way easier than the old battle wheel.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;814660*rubs face* Well a mortal can kill an Exalted but it would take suprise or a lot of them fighting as a unit with enough Magnitude to over whelm the Exalted initiative recovery. (Doable). Oooor a quick draw expert forcing a clash attack on the Exalt. But doing that will most likely kill the mortal to.
If an Exalt is built right for mass combat and dealing with surprises you'll need some magic. Either a friendly god, ghosts, or another Exalt.
Interesting! That seems contradictory to much of what's been gone on about in other Exalted threads. I'll have to see if play tests bear it out.
Quote from: Nexus;814662Interesting! That seems to contradictory to much of what's been gone on about in other Exalted threads. I'll have to see if play tests bear it out.
People are forgetting that init refresh has limitations and units have options to recover magnitude. The new gambits and flurry rules work for mixing up these options.
Don't get me wrong Dawns in specific and Solars in general are beasts but foes who use good group tactics, defend each other, and buy their friends opening eventually even high essence Exalts will go down. But it will be costly. Which is as it should be.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;814664People are forgetting that init refresh has limitations and units have options to recover magnitude. The new gambits and flurry rules work for mixing up these options.
Not sure I get what you mean here?
QuoteDon't get me wrong Dawns in specific and Solars in general are beasts but foes who use good group tactics, defend each other, and buy their friends opening eventually even high essence Exalts will go down. But it will be costly. Which is as it should be.
I think that's matter of taste but that does seem to be the intended paradigm for the new edition. Though they have been talking it up quite differently.
I'm not under nda but I'm honoring the Devs wishes. One the pdf drops I'll drop my Exalted Combat 301 on my blog with specific examples.
There is thing like weapon tags, gambits, mixed group tactics that people are ignoring. Hell the new flurry rule applies as well.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;814669I'm not under nda but I'm honoring the Devs wishes. One the pdf drops I'll drop my Exalted Combat 301 on my blog with specific examples.
There is thing like weapon tags, gambits, mixed group tactics that people are ignoring. Hell the new flurry rule applies as well.
Where you a play tester?
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;814664Don't get me wrong Dawns in specific and Solars in general are beasts but foes who use good group tactics, defend each other, and buy their friends opening eventually even high essence Exalts will go down. But it will be costly. Which is as it should be.
The Hunt should be an actual threat to PCs. But again, it's an issue of a Storyteller (based) game promising players all sorts of supernatural power and delivering not much.
jg
Quote from: James Gillen;814676The Hunt should be an actual threat to PCs. But again, it's an issue of a Storyteller (based) game promising players all sorts of supernatural power and delivering not much.
jg
I think the Hunt should be a threat to PCs. But not so much because of lots of mortals but its Terrestrial Exalts (who work well in numbers) backed by some mortals, but the Exalts do the heavy lifting. And I don't think it should be a thread that the PCs don't ever out grow or move beyond. The idea was to catch Solars young and off balance which was easier when they'd pop up every few decades one at a time. And even then you hit them with overwhelming just to be sure.
I want other play options besides sucking up to one of the major factions for protection, playing Master of Magic with PnP rules so you can have your own army or running from the Wyld Hunt for the length of the game.
Quote from: James Gillen;814676The Hunt should be an actual threat to PCs. But again, it's an issue of a Storyteller (based) game promising players all sorts of supernatural power and delivering not much.
jg
Even high essence Solars and Lunars will have problems with a group of Dragon Bloods. They can defend each other and keep the Solar on the edge of zero init. They would have to focus on countering Solar charm init refresh and counter attacks. Even if the Solar had charms or Anima to pop up from a init crash the next round that round if the DBs delayed their attack...the Solars defence would tank. And then the DBs could bleed him/her of essesne.
Nexus: Something like that. Sorry.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;814714Nexus: Something like that. Sorry.
No problem. I was curious f you were working from a more complete version of the rules than I am familiar with.
Really Solar Counter attacks are what you need to be careful of. It makes going 'all in' (not the official term) very, very risky. Unless you have some form of reactive defenses (like excellencies) then trying to down the Solar will cost you. Mortals may land a blow, maybe near incapacitating, but the odds of them staggering away with a mortal wound is very high.
Quote from: Orphan81;814339I think Exigents are a cool idea, don't get me wrong, but Liminals is clearly someone throwing their love of Promethean the Created into the ring.
Oh FFS...
I always thought that the silliest and most utterly
irrelevant and needless aspect of the Exalted setting was the whole "is it the backstory of the World of Darkness?" deal. Who gives a frig if it is? Nobody goes to Exalted to scratch their goth vampire itch, nobody goes to the World of Darkness to scratch their Solar superhero itch, they're different games and literally no good purpose is served by cooking up new Exalts to fit every type of new WoD monster they come up with. (Look out for them announcing still further Exalts to match the Beasts from the upcoming game of that name, or the biomechanoid Demons from Demon: the Descent, if they haven't already...)
Quote from: Warthur;814864Oh FFS...
I always thought that the silliest and most utterly irrelevant and needless aspect of the Exalted setting was the whole "is it the backstory of the World of Darkness?" deal. Who gives a frig if it is? Nobody goes to Exalted to scratch their goth vampire itch, nobody goes to the World of Darkness to scratch their Solar superhero itch, they're different games and literally no good purpose is served by cooking up new Exalts to fit every type of new WoD monster they come up with. (Look out for them announcing still further Exalts to match the Beasts from the upcoming game of that name, or the biomechanoid Demons from Demon: the Descent, if they haven't already...)
That can be a problem with the "Rule of Cool" (as much as I love it) without a firm hand on wheel, it can lead to setting bloat. I think that's part of where the other editions of Exalted went wrong.
So spirits will be playable now. That should be interesting.
Quote from: Kiero;814489There's no "could" about it. They made the wrong design choice right at the start, by failing to bin the shitty Storyteller system, which doesn't scale up at all, and starting from scratch. Not "rebuilding from the ground up" (of which there's little evidence so far they've really done anything of the sort), but flushing the crap away and starting all over again with something actually purpose-built for the task. Doesn't matter how much glitter and polish you put on a turd, it's still a turd.
After following Exalted for years (what's its been over a decade at this point?) I'm honestly starting to wonder if the game is workable without a major retooling and re-imaging. Not just mechanics wise but concept wise. It began with a somewhat vague concept that's gone all over the map, attempting to follow the "Rule of Cool" but with little oversight.
Now the fanbase is huge but they're fans of different aspects of the collage of tastes and assumptions and inspirations. Look at Exalted discussions, you get the impression most of the posters are talking about different games all together. Everyone wants something different that fits whatever platonic ideal of Exalted they have in their heads. And the only thing they agree on is that people that don't agree with them are heretics out to destroy the game with their flawed taste.
Even the current developers seems to be out of touch with each other and not that certain about their own ideas and goals. I see why they didn't answer many questions now.
Quote from: Nexus;814887That can be a problem with the "Rule of Cool" (as much as I love it) without a firm hand on wheel, it can lead to setting bloat. I think that's part of where the other editions of Exalted went wrong.
The system comes with bloat built in. We don't really need more.
Quote from: Nexus;815229After following Exalted for years (what's its been over a decade at this point?) I'm honestly starting to wonder if the game is workable without a major retooling and re-imaging. Not just mechanics wise but concept wise. It began with a somewhat vague concept that's gone all over the map, attempting to follow the "Rule of Cool" but with little oversight.
Now the fanbase is huge but they're fans of different aspects of the collage of tastes and assumptions and inspirations. Look at Exalted discussions, you get the impression most of the posters are talking about different games all together. Everyone wants something different that fits whatever platonic ideal of Exalted they have in their heads. And the only thing they agree on is that people that don't agree with them are heretics out to destroy the game with their flawed taste.
Even the current developers seems to be out of touch with each other and not that certain about their own ideas and goals. I see why they didn't answer many questions now.
I think a big part of the problem is that Exalted is a mishmash of tropes and whatever the devs thought was cool haphazardly thrown together without the slightest bit of understanding of what makes those tropes effective. It's like they look at something they like and think, "Hey, x happens in y, so if we throw in x in our game, it'll be just like y!" I'm almost tempted to call it cargo cult writing.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;815323I think a big part of the problem is that Exalted is a mishmash of tropes and whatever the devs thought was cool haphazardly thrown together without the slightest bit of understanding of what makes those tropes effective. It's like they look at something they like and think, "Hey, x happens in y, so if we throw in x in our game, it'll be just like y!" I'm almost tempted to call it cargo cult writing.
Yep, that's a big part of it.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;815323I think a big part of the problem is that Exalted is a mishmash of tropes and whatever the devs thought was cool haphazardly thrown together without the slightest bit of understanding of what makes those tropes effective. It's like they look at something they like and think, "Hey, x happens in y, so if we throw in x in our game, it'll be just like y!" I'm almost tempted to call it cargo cult writing.
I disagree. Not only is the mishmash of tropes one of its big appeals, but I think the original vision for the RPG as held by Grabowski showed a good understanding of those tropes. This was all central to the RPG's success.
Despite Grabowski holding his ship together longer than most would, the nature of the RPG industry in the 00s meant that the original vision was eventually lost and has been carried forward by people who don't understand them. This turned Exalted into what it is today.
I don't have any confidence that the Ex3 developers have shown any better understanding of those tropes. All I see is an intense focus on trying to fix the mechanics, which IMO is not the foundation on which Exalted is built.
Recent comments that they are reducing the font size to try and fit the originally estimated 400 to 500 pages or so has done nothing to alleviate my concern.
Quote from: Skywalker;815328Recent comments that they are reducing the font size to try and fit the originally estimated 400 to 500 pages or so has done nothing to alleviate my concern.
Holy shit, how big did it come out to be?
Quote from: Nexus;815329Holy shit, how big did it come out to be?
Who knows? But its another symptom of the greater issue. Honestly, go back and look at the white space in 1e's rulebook as compared to 2e's rulebook.
It was originally slated as a 400+ page rulebook. In the last update:
QuoteThe edited text for EX3 is now completely in layout. Art Director Maria Cabardo did her "bulk layout" phase, "dropping in the edited text into a very simple layout format in order to see if the fonts and the font sizes that she wants to use work for the text, and very importantly, just how many pages this tome actually is", and she and I fiddled with the font size a bit and made another proof.
That reduced the page count dramatically, but not enough to get the book to the size it can be printed and shipped within the range of pricing we planned for. And beyond this Kickstarter, we also have to look at all the folks who just couldn't be backers for one reason or another and who will pick up the book as a PoD physical book from DTRPG. We need that version to have reasonable costs as well.
That second bulk layout proof is currently in the hands of the Devs who are looking at alterations to the text to further reduce the page count. Once they pare it down, Maria and I will do another layout pass and move ahead towards our first real layout proof. That'll be where art will be positioned and sidebars made, and should be very close to what the actual book will look like. It's the most labor-intensive of the proofing stages for the layout designer.
They couldn't have been that surprised given the sheer bulk of the preliminary rules.
As a backer, I hope my deluxe copy now comes with a Caste Mark magnifying glass of my choosing :)
Quote from: Nexus;815338They couldn't have been that surprised given the sheer bulk of the preliminary rules.
The fact that the charm count has risen so much should also have been a warning too.
New Solar Awareness (or Medicine) Charm: Eyestrain Avoidance Prana
Quote from: Nexus;815344New Solar Awareness (or Medicine) Charm: Eyestrain Avoidance Prana
Then the abyssal charm version should be called Eyes Red With Blood Prana.
Quote from: Nexus;815344New Solar Awareness (or Medicine) Charm: Eyestrain Avoidance Prana
Yes, and though all it does is help one avoid eyestrain, this Charm will require 3+ paragraphs explaining how awesome/necessary it is, exactly how and why Solars use it, and what new rules and subsystems the player will need to memorize for it to be used.
I think the most text I've ever seen crammed on a page in an RPG book was in the Dragonmech line. If EX3 can top that, I will be extremely impressed.
I have to give them that the charm text hasn't been that bad in doc so far. But I guess it might be the "No frills, nothing but the stats" version. But it doesn't seem close to say, MOEP: The Infernals.
They'd almost have to cut down drastically on the Charm text. Nearly a thousand Charms in the 1E/2E style would probably require somewhere in the area of 200-300 pages, depending on the artwork included.
Quote from: Skywalker;815328I disagree. Not only is the mishmash of tropes one of its big appeals, but I think the original vision for the RPG as held by Grabowski showed a good understanding of those tropes. This was all central to the RPG's success.
Despite Grabowski holding his ship together longer than most would, the nature of the RPG industry in the 00s meant that the original vision was eventually lost and has been carried forward by people who don't understand them. This turned Exalted into what it is today.
On some parts I agree with you. Then there's the clusterfuck that was 1e Lunars and Sidereals. Call me crazy, but shoehorning entire splats into specific genres of fantasy seems like a recipe for disaster, particularly when the head dev makes it a point to have no creative oversight.
QuoteI don't have any confidence that the Ex3 developers have shown any better understanding of those tropes. All I see is an intense focus on trying to fix the mechanics, which IMO is not the foundation on which Exalted is built.
Recent comments that they are reducing the font size to try and fit the originally estimated 400 to 500 pages or so has done nothing to alleviate my concern.
If the previews have shown me anything, it's that the current devs are keeping in loads of chafe in a misguided attempt to appease everyone and because they're too attached to it to cut it out.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;815703On some parts I agree with you. Then there's the clusterfuck that was 1e Lunars and Sidereals. Call me crazy, but shoehorning entire splats into specific genres of fantasy seems like a recipe for disaster, particularly when the head dev makes it a point to have no creative oversight.
If the previews have shown me anything, it's that the current devs are keeping in loads of chafe in a misguided attempt to appease everyone and because they're too attached to it to cut it out.
When I'm in a more thoughtful, objective mood I really think that I'm simply not in the target audience they're currently aiming for with Exalted. So far outside it, in fact that I don't fully grasp what they want or why in the Hell anyone would want that from an rpg. Its been a pattern with White Wolf games for a long that they get more pretentious and faux sophisticated (IMO, YMMV, etc) as they go, eventually mutating too far away from anything I'd like to play to continue to follow.
When I'm in a less generous mood I largely agree with the above.
Unedited (for size) pre layout single column clocks in around 900+ pages. Now the default for OP books is 2 columns but you have to factor in all the art. Oh and due to the crazy number of new charms some of the new trees are a bit bonkers in size. So they have to consider if those are even viable in the new edition core. Etc, etc. Rich and co have a lot to consider.
The reason why there is so many charms is because the new core combat and social mechanics finally grok what excellencies and static defense numbers do to a attribute + ability rolls. Holden and John were not kidding when they said they discovered a lot of empty space in how 2nd edition handled them. Hell the new Dodge, ya dodge, charms are hilariously useful and I would be surprised to see 3e players flocking to it because of all the full on Batman/Spiderman levels of baddy trolling built in to them.
The whole game has a very modular feel to it with different but similar actions using similar mechanics I could as a ST see myself hacking tricks from one to handle unique situations on another. Like combat scaling from 1 vs 1 to squad to armies to ship vs ship actions all using the same rough moving parts but tailored for their unique situation.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;815738Unedited (for size) pre layout single column clocks in around 900+ pages. Now the default for OP books is 2 columns but you have to factor in all the art. Oh and due to the crazy number of new charms some of the new trees are a bit bonkers in size. So they have to consider if those are even viable in the new edition core. Etc, etc. Rich and co have a lot to consider.
That is a manly hunk of book.
Quote from: Skywalker;815341The fact that the charm count has risen so much should also have been a warning too.
In any case, I think Bubbles' is in for a disappointment if he's still expected in a month.
Quote from: Scutarii;18750834Not for a while - weeks to months.
It's been in Layout for 4-5 weeks (assuming it started sometime during the week of the 5th of Jan) so far and has just been passed back to the Devs to cut some text for space, once that's done I imagine there'll be another period of placing the next text back into the layout and seeing what need changing and tweaking, art dropping in and so forth. So yeah, 4-5 weeks to go from raw text+basic template (I believe they were working on the basic layout template prior to the completion of the text?) to a first draft for identifying spacing. At that rate I'd be surprised if we start racing through stages now ;)
Note also that some of the artwork is still getting completed and coming in so that's another potential delay that's not really in their hands to control.
Dec 29th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: Maria Cabardo and I looking at the final final finals now. Talking to her about layout after she gets back in her studio on Jan1, as Holden has given us the text for the first six chapters!
Jan 5th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: Maria Cabardo and I looking at the final final final finals now. Going to check in with her about layout today. (NOTE: I think this week would be when it entered layout as Rich said he'd speak to her after the 1st of Jan and it seems with this update he didn't get much worth making public while he has something he makes public in the next entry).
Jan 12th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: hard to believe, Maria and I are still looking at occasional final pieces as they drift in. She is working to create a rough layout this month.
Jan 19th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: we asked the artists for a couple of redos, so new old new art is coming in. I was at MidWinter so have not touched base with Maria on how the layout is going.
Jan 26th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: we asked the artists for a couple of redos, so new old new art is coming in. Maria hopes to get me the very roughly laid in layout pages sometime next week.
Feb 2nd
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: we asked the artists for a couple of redos, so new old new art is still coming in. Maria hopes to get me the very roughly laid in layout pages by the end of this week. The Devs sent their music ideas for each Exalted for the EX3 Music Suite to the composer.
Feb 9th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: the last few pieces of art are still coming in. Maria and I went over her first “drop the text in” proof and made several significant decisions on fonts and sizes and sent that version, which had reduced the page count dramatically, back to the Devs for more extensive text revision. Maria has some beautiful ideas on different page borders for each chapter which still hold together with a single design aesthetic that she can now match to the text.
Feb 16th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: the last few pieces of art are still coming in. Waiting for Dev notes on the roughly laid out pages. (NOTE: example of the art being out of their hands, the 12th Jan update says 'hard to believe, Maria and I are still looking at occasional final pieces as they drift in' and they're still coming in here 5 weeks later).
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;815738Unedited (for size) pre layout single column clocks in around 900+ pages. Now the default for OP books is 2 columns but you have to factor in all the art. Oh and due to the crazy number of new charms some of the new trees are a bit bonkers in size. So they have to consider if those are even viable in the new edition core. Etc, etc. Rich and co have a lot to consider.
The reason why there is so many charms is because the new core combat and social mechanics finally grok what excellencies and static defense numbers do to a attribute + ability rolls. Holden and John were not kidding when they said they discovered a lot of empty space in how 2nd edition handled them. Hell the new Dodge, ya dodge, charms are hilariously useful and I would be surprised to see 3e players flocking to it because of all the full on Batman/Spiderman levels of baddy trolling built in to them.
The whole game has a very modular feel to it with different but similar actions using similar mechanics I could as a ST see myself hacking tricks from one to handle unique situations on another. Like combat scaling from 1 vs 1 to squad to armies to ship vs ship actions all using the same rough moving parts but tailored for their unique situation.
This gives me a small glimmer of hope for 3E. As is, I think I'm going to be ebaying my two deluxe copies that I ordered.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;815738Unedited (for size) pre layout single column clocks in around 900+ pages.
Ye gads. :o
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;815703On some parts I agree with you. Then there's the clusterfuck that was 1e Lunars and Sidereals. Call me crazy, but shoehorning entire splats into specific genres of fantasy seems like a recipe for disaster, particularly when the head dev makes it a point to have no creative oversight.
1e Sidereals was a clusterfuck? That book is generally highly regarded from what I have seen.
Quote from: Skywalker;8164581e Sidereals was a clusterfuck? That book is generally highly regarded from what I have seen.
I owned it and couldn't really make heads or tails of the charms when I had it. Some were easy, but some frankly, read the like the writer was on acid. The problem was that Rebbeca Borgstrom interwove the fluff description of the charms with the mechanics. If you could penetrate the fluff, they were apparently, amazing. If you could not (like me) you used the fluff from the book and didn't use sidereals in your game.
Quote from: Iron_Rain;816491I owned it and couldn't really make heads or tails of the charms when I had it. Some were easy, but some frankly, read the like the writer was on acid. The problem was that Rebbeca Borgstrom interwove the fluff description of the charms with the mechanics. If you could penetrate the fluff, they were apparently, amazing. If you could not (like me) you used the fluff from the book and didn't use sidereals in your game.
The charms win in Sidereals 1e were fine (well designed even IMO). As said, Sidereals 1e is generally regarded as one of the better Exalted books mechanically.
The issue you are describing sounds more like the one that people had with the Resplendent Destinies. Fair Folk was the splat that had charms that were tough to grok IME
Quote from: Skywalker;8164581e Sidereals was a clusterfuck? That book is generally highly regarded from what I have seen.
It really depended on what your opinion of Jenna Moran/Rebecca Bergstrom's particular style was. I find her overly florid, dense, seemingly deliberately obtuse and not nearly as clever as she thinks she is. It was actually a running gag that it took a special talent "Bergstromancy" to decipher her intermingled prose and mechanics correctly.
But some consider her a genius. No accounting for taste.
I will say that in the few times I interacted with her she was one of the most professional and friendly of the Exalted staffers.
Quote from: Nexus;816497It really depended on what your opinion of Jenna Moran/Rebecca Bergstrom's particular style was.
I am aware of the division and I have a serious dislike of Rebecca Borgstrom's design work having failed to grok much of her work. But even then, I had no issue with Sidereal 1e charms and thought them to be good.
Quote from: Skywalker;816500I am aware of the division and I have a serious dislike of Rebecca Borgstrom's design work having failed to grok much of her work. But even then, I had no issue with Sidereal 1e charms and thought them to be good.
Not trying to say you're wrong for liking them just answering the question as I understood it. Personally I really dislike Sidereals and found them to be the beginning of a downturn in the line but there's no denying they're appear to be very popular among the fans base, particularly on rpg.net.
Quote from: Iron_Rain;816491I owned it and couldn't really make heads or tails of the charms when I had it. Some were easy, but some frankly, read the like the writer was on acid. The problem was that Rebbeca Borgstrom interwove the fluff description of the charms with the mechanics. If you could penetrate the fluff, they were apparently, amazing. If you could not (like me) you used the fluff from the book and didn't use sidereals in your game.
Yeah, some of them were fairly straight forward. Others where major WTFs? There was thread after thread trying to puzzle out some of them like Avoidance Kata.
But really problem was that I just didn't like the basic premise and concept of Sidereals and their abilities. Like Fair Folk it seems weird, overly meta and strange for the sake of being strange without bringing in value to the game, IMO. And began (or accelerated) what felt like a trend for that in the line overall.
Edit: OTOH, I like First Edition Lunars and the only part of MOEP: The Infernals I had a problem with was the mechanics. So Mileage is going to vary allot.
Quote from: Nexus;816501Not trying to say you're wrong for liking them just answering the question as I understood it. Personally I really dislike Sidereals and found them to be the beginning of a downturn in the line but there's no denying they're appear to be very popular among the fans base, particularly on rpg.net.
I think their appeal goes wider than that. I remember Kenneth Hite giving a glowing review of Sidereals 1e when it came out.
Quote from: Skywalker;816513I think their appeal goes wider than that. I remember Kenneth Hite giving a glowing review of Sidereals 1e when it came out.
I didn't say only on rpg.net, I said particularly on rpg.net but the fanbase in general seems like them.
Am I nuts or is hatewheel being way way to literal here (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?749241-Lunar-Exalted-What-Are-They-to-You&p=18783543#post18783543)?
You can't deliberately use the power to look mimic some one else's appearance. That's not that hard to understand is it or am I just stupid?
The page if anyone wants to follow the conversation. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?749241-Lunar-Exalted-What-Are-They-to-You&p=18783626#post18783626)
Just got my hands on the raw text for 3rd Edition. Going over it right now. They've really cleaned up some of the stupid present in the setting. I'm still laughing at how pretensions and "goffic" Abyssals are.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;818393Just got my hands on the raw text for 3rd Edition. Going over it right now. They've really cleaned up some of the stupid present in the setting. I'm still laughing at how pretensions and "goffic" Abyssals are.
Any details you'd like to share?
Quote from: Nexus;818398Any details you'd like to share?
For starters, the history presented isn't as obsessively defined as it was in 2nd Edition. The setting feels more open now, with plenty of room for you to tell your own story and insert your own content.
The Realm's gotten a bit of a face lift and Lunars have dominions of their own instead of fucking tree stumps out in the Wyld. On a whole, they actually feel like they have a place in the setting.
The Solar/Lunar bond was a thing in the First Age, but as of the Usurpation, it was broken.
The Great Curse is still a thing and the mechanics of it are at least more workable than its previous incarnations. Still think it's stupid as hell and was added in because White Wolf will never shake it's obsession with taking control of the character away from the player.
Essence is no longer purchased with experience points. Instead, its automatically rises by one point once a certain amount of experience points are spent. Thus far, this is my favorite change in the rule system.
Abyssals read like something a fourteen year old goth came up with. Some choice bits:
The Romance of the GraveThough they are death’s champions, the Abyssals yet live, and feel the desires of the living. Some deathknights are moved by a strange romance, finding beauty and joy in the bleak silence of graveyards, the howling of wolves raised up to a cold and shining moon, the delicate work of spiders, the mournful arias of the dead. They may know love, perhaps even for one of the living. But none should count on love or joy to save them when Death’s Lawgivers come riding. Many Abyssals see only death in death, and are pleased by cruelty and blood.[/I]
The Chivalry of DeathClassically trained Abyssals are given a code, which speaks to the truth of the grave. This truth is instinctive, and resonates even in those deathknights who forsake the Deathlords to walk alone. Despair, futility, hopelessness in heroes and leaders and the hearts of men spread the Essence of
the grave far more effectively than wholesale slaughter, which tends to renew vows of perseverance, survival, and commitment to the gods. Kill a wife and spare the husband, and you may have made an enemy for life, but you have also made the man questionable to everyone around him forevermore. And so the Abyssals sometimes stay their hands. They let their enemies live. They preach bleak sermons and move on without incident. They let the world move in its own course, touched by their darkness. This is the chivalry of death. Few living individuals understand the chivalry of death, even when a deathknight patiently explains it. Who can say why one man or village is spared, while another is cut down or razed to ashes? Why does an Abyssal let his foe live with the memory of defeat in one battle, and slay
him in the next? The Abyssals are untroubled; they know, in their hearts, when they should stay their hand. They are unhurried; they know death’s triumph to be inevitable.[/I]
Play one of the Abyssal Exalted if you want
• to walk with death as your constant companion.
• to be a warrior-poet of macabre passions and dark romance.
• to be a master of necromancy.
• to be a champion of the dark lords of the Underworld.
• to uphold the chivalry of death.I'll post more later. I've only managed to get into 181 pages our of a good 949 thus far.
Dear gods, someone actually wrote that shit? And worse, someone who calls themselves an editor thought it was good enough to include in the book?
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;818401For starters, the history presented isn't as obsessively defined as it was in 2nd Edition. The setting feels more open now, with plenty of room for you to tell your own story and insert your own content.
The Realm's gotten a bit of a face lift and Lunars have dominions of their own instead of fucking tree stumps out in the Wyld. On a whole, they actually feel like they have a place in the setting.
The Solar/Lunar bond was a thing in the First Age, but as of the Usurpation, it was broken.
The Great Curse is still a thing and the mechanics of it are at least more workable than its previous incarnations. Still think it's stupid as hell and was added in because White Wolf will never shake it's obsession with taking control of the character away from the player.
How do the mechanics work, most importantly how ignorable are they? They do feel like another Storyteller "We don't trust you to play your character correctly*" mechanic.
*Non optimal fashion for drama or whatever...
QuoteEssence is no longer purchased with experience points. Instead, its automatically rises by one point once a certain amount of experience points are spent. Thus far, this is my favorite change in the rule system.
I'm on the fence about this. Do they explain the reasons for the change?
QuoteAbyssals read like something a fourteen year old goth came up with. Some choice bits:
The Romance of the Grave
Though they are death’s champions, the Abyssals yet live, and feel the desires of the living. Some deathknights are moved by a strange romance, finding beauty and joy in the bleak silence of graveyards, the howling of wolves raised up to a cold and shining moon, the delicate work of spiders, the mournful arias of the dead. They may know love, perhaps even for one of the living. But none should count on love or joy to save them when Death’s Lawgivers come riding. Many Abyssals see only death in death, and are pleased by cruelty and blood.[/I]
The Chivalry of Death
Classically trained Abyssals are given a code, which speaks to the truth of the grave. This truth is instinctive, and resonates even in those deathknights who forsake the Deathlords to walk alone. Despair, futility, hopelessness in heroes and leaders and the hearts of men spread the Essence of
the grave far more effectively than wholesale slaughter, which tends to renew vows of perseverance, survival, and commitment to the gods. Kill a wife and spare the husband, and you may have made an enemy for life, but you have also made the man questionable to everyone around him forevermore. And so the Abyssals sometimes stay their hands. They let their enemies live. They preach bleak sermons and move on without incident. They let the world move in its own course, touched by their darkness. This is the chivalry of death. Few living individuals understand the chivalry of death, even when a deathknight patiently explains it. Who can say why one man or village is spared, while another is cut down or razed to ashes? Why does an Abyssal let his foe live with the memory of defeat in one battle, and slay
him in the next? The Abyssals are untroubled; they know, in their hearts, when they should stay their hand. They are unhurried; they know death’s triumph to be inevitable.[/I]
Play one of the Abyssal Exalted if you want
• to walk with death as your constant companion.
• to be a warrior-poet of macabre passions and dark romance.
• to be a master of necromancy.
• to be a champion of the dark lords of the Underworld.
• to uphold the chivalry of death.
So they're Emo Goths. Do they sparkle in direct sunlight too? Jebus Crux, its a desperate attempt to paint a group that really should be straight up antagonists in "Shades of Gray" with tortured purple prose.
QuoteI'll post more later. I've only managed to get into 181 pages our of a good 949 thus far.
So what happened, another leak or have they sent out the whole thing to backers*?
*I might owe Bubbles an apology in that case.
Quote from: Kiero;818410Dear gods, someone actually wrote that shit? And worse, someone who calls themselves an editor thought it was good enough to include in the book?
Maybe it'll be part of what's cut from the public release? :)
I am backer, and I have not received any PDF yet.
I really don't mind the Abyssal's text, except this part:
QuotePlay one of the Abyssal Exalted if you want
• to walk with death as your constant companion.
• to be a warrior-poet of macabre passions and dark romance.
• to be a master of necromancy.
• to be a champion of the dark lords of the Underworld.
• to uphold the chivalry of death.
I think its cool they add these blurbs into the game. They did so in Vampire:Blood and Smoke, but in this case, since you can not play an Abyssal Exalted using the core book, I feel bad for the player who sees this text, gets excited, only to find out they cannot play said Exalted until that splat's corebook drops.
On another note, any mention of the new Exalted types?
Quote from: Starglyte;818422I am backer, and I have not received any PDF yet.
I really don't mind the Abyssal's text, except this part:
I think its cool they add these blurbs into the game. They did so in Vampire:Blood and Smoke, but in this case, since you can not play an Abyssal Exalted using the core book, I feel bad for the player who sees this text, gets excited, only to find out they cannot play said Exalted until that splat's corebook drops.
I was wondering about that since it will be year or two before the Abyssal book is released. I guess you could fake it 'till you make it with the Exigent book?
Edit: This probably puts that kind of material high on the list to be trimmed.
I feel like I'm being trolled. Either by 3M or OP, I'm not sure which.
I've been lurking this thread for a while and I'm surprised you guys didn't get word of that leak sooner. I heard Holden was pretty pissed when it popped up on 4chan.
Quote from: Starglyte;818422On another note, any mention of the new Exalted types?
Only the Exigents get a write-up like that, wasn't clear on whether that was because the other's hadn't been completed or if they're not getting one.
The Exigents
Sometimes there is calamity beyond measure. Sometimes there is crisis beyond reckoning.
Sometimes the world must have a champion, but does not. Then the gods themselves lift their
faces to Heaven, and utter a prayer for deliverance.
If the need be sufficient, the god without any other recourse, and the heart of the Unconquered
Sun moved by the prayer, he may answer, and send down a portion of his divine fire. This is the
Exigence: a gift of Exaltation, an extreme sacrament handed down to answer the most urgent of
disasters.
Exigence is…
• Unique. An Exigent will be the Chosen of the god who catalyzes the Unconquered Sun’s divine
power, her blessings and Charms fitting her divine patron. Almost all Exigents are one-of-a-kind
—while there are 100 Sidereal Exalted, there exists only one Chosen of Masks.
• Variable. The power and properties of an Exigent are unpredictable. Many Exigents are little
stronger than a Dragon-Blooded, while others equal the might of the Celestial Exalted. Most are
unique, but on rare occasion, Exigence may produce a tiny handful of similar Exalts. On the
other hand, two Exigents produced by similar gods—such as the gods of two different volcanoes
—may vary wildly in blessings, power, and nature, though both will express the power of
volcanism in some way.
• Costly. Exaltation carries a heavy price for the one who bestows it. The Exigence consumes
some gods entirely, while others are weakened greatly. No immortal calls for the divine fire
lightly.
• Inconstant. The blood of the Terrestrial Exalted spreads far across Creation, while the Celestial
Exalted reincarnate endlessly. Few Exigents are so enduring; for most, their Exaltation will end
with their life. For those who can pass on their power to a new hero, the method of transition is
often strange and idiosyncratic, and some are susceptible to interference or even destruction
between incarnations.
• Corruptible. Before being catalyzed into Exaltation, the divine power of the Unconquered Sun
may be stolen or traded, perhaps even falling into the hands of criminal or forbidden gods. Some
Exigents are the result of such illicit Exaltations, while others are worse—Exaltations altered or
polluted as they passed through the divine black market, producing monstrous Exalts of terrible,
blasphemous power and nature.
You might be…
• Strawmaiden Janest, the Harvest Exalt. Chosen by a lowly field god to defend a farming
village from the Fair Folk, you are a wandering hero carrying a miraculous scythe with which to
reap those who would menace the small folk of the world.
• Nurlissa, the Chosen of Masks. Your traded your face for Exaltation in the form of a mask.
Your Charms are an array of magical masks which let you be anyone, including your old mortal
self. Or you might don the beast-mask to become lord of animals, or the devil-mask to fight with
the strength of a raging demon.
• The Bleak Warden, Chosen of the Seals. You were Exalted by the guardian of an ancient
prison holding forbidden gods and cursed magic. You wield the power of seals—either placing
them on your foes, or unleashing pandemonium long ago sealed away by Heaven. You try to
bend this power to righteous ends, but some forces are hard to justify unsealing.
• Thousand Venoms Mistress, Chosen of Toxins. You are a divine assassin, the latest bearer of
your Exaltation, title, and profession. You are the master of countless poisons, and may even
transform your own blood into an array of toxins whose agonies bring divine revelation.
• Willow Specter, Chosen of the Dice. You won your Exaltation gambling with Plentimon
himself. The god of gamblers has made you the luckiest man in the world, and you’re out to get
everything you can before your ways catch up to you—every gambler knows there’s a bill to be
paid some day.
• Someone else. The true fire of Exigence burns in your own creativity.
Play one of the Exigents if you want
• to be something unique in all the word.
• to define your own powers and agenda.
• to do or be something none of the other Exalts offer.
As a side note the Infernals are conspicuously absent from the text. They get one mention in a charm and that's it. I wonder if the Ink Monkeys decided after all the frufurah about their splatbook it'd be better to take them out back.
Thanks for the blurb. Never been a big fan of the Exigents. Shame they don't give out more info on the Getimans and the other new Exalted types.
A thread on the most recent leak. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=43630)
Quote from: Warboss Squee;818432I feel like I'm being trolled. Either by 3M or OP, I'm not sure which.
I haven't been able to find anything about the raw text leak. One forum post with no replies dated 2-8-2015 that claims it happened a week previous. Seems like there would be more discussion about it than that. But my Google-fu isn't particularly strong.
Quote from: Starglyte;818456Thanks for the blurb. Never been a big fan of the Exigents. Shame they don't give out more info on the Getimans and the other new Exalted types.
The new Exalt types are one of the setting aspects I'm the most dubious about.
Quote from: Nexus;818463All the new Exalt types is one of the setting aspects I'm the most dubious about.
Exigents are the one thing I like most about what I have heard for 3e. A potential antagonist that can challenge Exalted PCs, are easy to run for the GM and are varied.
On saying that, I am not interested in any of the other Exalted types that have been added.
Quote from: Skywalker;818466Exigents are the one thing I like most about what I have heard for 3e. A potential antagonist that can challenge Exalted PCs, are easy to run for the GM and are varied.
On saying that, I am not interested in any of the other Exalted types that have been added.
^ This!
Also, is there a way to get a hold of that 900+ page document? If so, please PM me with the details.
Exigents would have been fine as a catch-all "make up your own Exalt" if they'd also ditched Infernals and Alchemicals, and added no other new types. That might have been a good way to streamline the number of Exalt-types.
Quote from: Nexus;818462I haven't been able to find anything about the raw text leak. One forum post with no replies dated 2-8-2015 that claims it happened a week previous. Seems like there would be more discussion about it than that. But my Google-fu isn't particularly strong.
Well, thanks to a more tech savy friend I can now say its real.
Quote from: Kiero;818470Exigents would have been fine as a catch-all "make up your own Exalt" if they'd also ditched Infernals and Alchemicals, and added no other new types. That might have been a good way to streamline the number of Exalt-types.
If I adopt the new rules that's how I'll use their mechanics and the charm construction guidelines. It should work well enough with my version of "exigents"
Exigents should had been the only add-on Exalted in 3e. We honestly shouldn't bother with all the other exalted types that are also added in. I do agree that infernals should be taken out I do question about the alchemicals. I think they add something to exalted since they are the only ones exalted by a primordial.
Thanks for the heads up on the current leak. I got a copy from 8chan. If you want a copy, just google "exalted 3rd edition playtest leak" and for me it was the 10th result.
I'm still upset they moved the general playtesting back in house instead of using wider bases, leak or no, they needed advice from outside the bubble. How much of the feedback they would have taken outside of the bubble, I don't know, but I have a feeling it would have been something more.
8chan is a strange place that has deluded themselves into thinking they were successful for more then a month
still i do check it out on occasion
Interesting. They seem to have dropped any pretense of the Usurpation being questionable or having uncharitable motivation even in part.
Alright, here's how the Great Curse works:
The Great Curse and Limit Break
When the Exalted slew the enemies of the gods, those ancient monsters pronounced a terrible death-curse against the traitorous Incarnae. The Unconquered Sun and his compatriots had anticipated this, however, and crafted mighty magic to protect themselves. What they failed to
notice was that the death-curse of the fallen ancients, thwarted by the gods, took root in the hearts of their Chosen. That Great Curse still haunts the Solar Exalted to this day, leaving a seed of darkness in each hero Chosen by the Unconquered Sun. The Curse expresses itself in moments of great stress and hardship, inflating the Solar's passions into gross displays of
unrestrained and destructive excess. The growing strength of the Great Curse is measured by a trait called Limit.
Limit
Limit is a measure of stress, self-doubt, and mental instability. As a Solar accrues Limit, the power of the Great Curse gains a stronger purchase on his soul. While this growing corruption may be invisible to others, the cursed Exalt finds his thoughts wandering in darker directions. When he reaches 10 Limit, the Curse spills over and can no longer be contained, erupting into
Limit Break. The Solar Exalted gain Limit in the following ways:
• Once per scene, when a character acts in a way that opposes one of his Major Intimacies, his player rolls a single die, gaining one point of Limit for each success (unless he's already rolled for acting against a Defining Intimacy; see below). Note that weakening an Intimacy always
counts as opposing it, as does spending Willpower to resist an influence roll supported by that Intimacy.
• Once per scene, when a character acts against one of his Defining Intimacies, his player rolls two dice for Limit (or one die if he's already rolled for acting against a Major Intimacy). This otherwise functions as acting against a Major Intimacy, above.
• All Solars have a Limit Trigger selected at character creation, a special condition under which a character can gain Limit. When a character's Limit Trigger is met, his player rolls three dice for Limit, gaining one point per success.
Limit Triggers
Below are a number of potential Limit Triggers. This list is meant to be illustrative rather than exhaustive—players should feel free to design their own Limit Trigger (with the Storyteller's approval). A Limit Trigger should be a situation that the character finds stressful, traumatic, or frustrating.
• The Solar is insulted, belittled, or deliberately frustrated by another character.
• The Solar tells a lie, deliberately deceives someone, or breaks a sworn oath.
• The Solar sees innocents suffering, and is either unable or unwilling to help them.
• The Solar is hindered or defeated by the self-indulgent and intemperate behavior of those around him.
• The Solar's allies suffer a setback or defeat because of a mistake he made.
• The Solar is faced with the opportunity to advance his own cause by harming an innocent or ignoring one's suffering.
• The Solar's emotions lead him into a course of action that he regrets.
• The Solar is denied a favorite pleasure or vice, either by circumstance, another character, or his own decisions.
Limit Break and Virtue Flaws
Once a character has accumulated 10 Limit points, he will enter a state called Limit Break—the manifest expression of the Great Curse. Limit Break may or may not manifest immediately; the Great Curse is insidious, and tends to erupt into full bloom only when the Exalt's actions have the potential to create significant turmoil or suffering. An Exalt in the midst of an argument with his Circle is likely to experience the full effects of the Great Curse immediately, while one trekking through the vast desert of the South might continue to travel for several days before the effects of his Limit Break manifest. The timing of such manifestations are ultimately up to the
Storyteller.
The precise manifestation the Great Curse takes is known as a Virtue Flaw. Several potential Virtue Flaws are described below, and the Storyteller may create new ones as suits the needs of his story. A Solar's Virtue Flaw isn't fixed—the Storyteller should choose whichever one is most suited to the character's current situation or seems like the most dramatic choice. All Virtue
Flaws share the following features:
• Each Virtue Flaw forces the character to act out some kind of behavior that is harmful to those around him or to himself. The behavior enforced by Limit Break is treated as a Defining Principle, applying a +4 or -3 to the character's Resolve against relevant influence rolls and allowing the character to treat certain types of influence as unacceptable.
• In addition, if a character could treat an influence roll as unacceptable due to Limit Break, he must—he does not have the option of letting it be resolved as normal.
• Being in Limit Break is an intensely emotional experience, a powerful cathartic reaction to whatever stress has driven a character to it—it feels good, or at least necessary, even as it is traumatic. As a result, when a character ends his Limit Break he resets his Willpower points to
equal his permanent Willpower, regardless of whether this causes him to gain or lose Willpower.
• Each Virtue Flaw specifies a duration of either session or scene. Those that have a session-long duration last for the remainder of the session of play. If the Limit Break occurs towards the end of the session, or there isn't an opportunity for it to have any impact on the game, the Storyteller
may choose to have it spill over into the next session as well. Those that have a scene-long duration last for a single scene of play. In addition, each Limit Break has a condition which can end it prematurely if met.
• Once a Limit Break ends, the character loses all points of accumulated Limit.
And after a few example Virtue Flaws, most of which are adaptations of flaws that appeared in previous editions, there's a blurb that tries to justify the Great Curse by comparing it to Hercules and Elric of Melnibone and advises Storytellers when/where to have Virtue Flaws flare up and which ones to use. Thankfully, given that the Four Virtues have been replaced by the much more flexible Intimacies, the Great Curse can be removed with no effort or impact on the mechanics of the game.
I'm skipping charms and martial arts for the time being. I just don't have the energy or patience to read though them all right now. I'm looking at artifacts now. Beyond how the weapons base stats are determined and tags, not much has changed. Weapons and Armor still require you to sink motes in them to work properly, which annoys me to no end. Some of the miscellaneous artifacts are pretty neat; there's a ship that can fold into a tiny box on command and a walking stick that can grow into a fruit bearing tree that doubles over as a source of firewood on command. There's even the magic equivalent of Mass Effect's omnitool.
Got some new Hearthstones, some of which give you Evocations. Fun fact about evocations, certain ones carry the Innate keyword, which lets a character make use of an evocation even if they don't have the associated artifact. Apparently only Solars benefit from the Innate keyword, which is how their mastery of evocations is represented in the system I suppose. You can even come up with Evocations of your own! Of course, rules for doing so are not provided in the core, so until Arms of the Chosen comes out, you're going to have to either copy the example evocations in the book or wing it. Classic White Wolf.
The Liminal Exalted
Rage, agony, sorrow, madness: these are the parents of the Liminal Exalted, those born from grave's black womb. Empowered by an ancient and forgotten power of the Underworld, yet crafted by living hands, a
Liminal is not the sum of her parts or her memories; instead, she is a new being, instilled with grim purpose and set adrift into the world. These ragged Chosen pace the boundaries between
Creation and the Underworld, hunting the dead and exorcising restless spirits. Beyond the sporadic messages of their dark mother, they have no greater organization among themselves. If a Liminal is to find greater purpose than the extermination of the Unquiet, she must find or forge it for herself.
The Liminal Aspects
The nature of the Liminal Exalted is rooted in elements of life and death, dictated by the passions of their creators. As such, each Liminal is governed by one of five Aspects:
• Aspects of Blood: These Liminals are born from lust, greed, and ambition. They are wellsprings of passion and vessels for forces that bind.
• Aspects of Breath: These Liminals arise from regret or repentance. Breath Aspects are reflective and reactive, and alive with the power to possess, motivate, and animate.
• Aspects of Flesh: Flesh Aspects are forged in rage, madness, and vengeance. Aggression and lust move them, and metamorphosis is their hallmark.
• Aspects of Marrow: Curiosity and obsession creates these Liminals. They are calculating and
analytical, and see easily to the secret nature of things.
• Aspects of Soil: Soil Aspects are born in sorrow, blackest despair, and heartfelt yearning. They are introspective creatures of revelation and omens, masters of the cycle of decay and rebirth
Set Apart
Made in madness and born from death, the Liminals have no place in the world of the living— given time and exposure to their Exalted might, humans come to abhor and fear them. It falls to each Exalt to try to make a place for herself somewhere, or to abandon such notions entirely and live a vagabond existence. However, life's flame may gutter in those who choose to live without hope, breeding new monsters for their fellows to hunt...
Ragged Men
The Liminals are assembled from patchwork corpses, and continue to replace body parts throughout their lives. Many can steal the cleverness from a liar's tongue, or the prowess of a swordsman's arm. Others simply restore old body parts to keep themselves eternally refreshed and renewed.
Marked by Horror
Though she normally seems pristine and human, when a Liminal spends too much Essence, the horror of her nature rises to the surface and alienates observers. Aspects of Soil seem ancient, as though they've just risen from the black earth, while Blood Aspects become grave-pale, with blood-red eyes, and brackish water dripping from lips and fingertips. Their anima displays are similarly gruesome, varying by Aspect and including such unsettling displays as swirling clouds of blood, pulsing ropes of phantasmal muscle, or dark streamers of soil churning with white bones and worms.
Undying
No other Exalt is as resilient as a Liminal. So long as her brain remains intact, she may even come back from death, the spark of her Essence spontaneously reigniting herself. Water also interferes with Liminal resurrection; drowning will prevent the Children of the Soil from returning from the grave to exact revenge. However, such lore is unknown to most, including the majority of the Liminals themselves.
The Maker and the Lifeline
A strange, indelible link exists between a Liminal and her creator. The maker is branded by his act, tied forever to the life he has brought forth. Though the two may travel hundreds of miles apart, they remain linked by dreams and insights, which may serve as a source of comfort or torment—or both. Inevitably they will be drawn back together, though it may take years.
The death of a Liminal's creator casts her Essence into turmoil, setting her on a road to necrosis and monstrosity. If the Exalt doesn't manage to forge a new bond with another living soul, she faces an inexorable slide into ruin and undeath. Though the world may seek to turn away from the Children of the Soil, the Liminals cannot turn away from the world if they wish to retain their
humanity.
Play one of the Liminal Exalted if you want
• to be created rather than born.
• to have a strange, powerful, patchwork body.
• to explore what it means to be human, and ali
• to hunt the dead who walk among the living.
Ah Liminals. Nothing says pulp fantasy and mythic resonance like rip offs of Prometheans/4e revenants with the ability to fuse with body parts.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;818499Ah Liminals. Nothing says pulp fantasy and mythic resonance like rip offs of Prometheans/4e revenants with the ability to fuse with body parts.
It was going around on rpg.net that the main reason they're in the game is that one of the developers (Holden, IIRC) made a bet that he could include Prometheans in Creation and make people think they were cool. I don't recall if was confirmed as a joke or not.
If anything like these guys show up in my games they'll be some of bizarre sorcerous constructs, not Exalted.
Quote from: Nexus;818500It was going around on rpg.net that the main reason they're in the game is that one of the developers (Holden, IIRC) made a bet that he could include Prometheans in Creation and make people think they were cool. I don't recall if was confirmed as a joke or not.
If anything like these guys show up in my games they'll be some of bizarre sorcerous constructs, not Exalted.
The way I heard it, John Morke included them because he really liked Prometheans. I don't understand how they qualify as a type of Exalt; everything about them is about as far removed from the other Exalted as you can get.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;818494Alright, here's how the Great Curse works:
The Great Curse and Limit Break
When the Exalted slew the enemies of the gods, those ancient monsters pronounced a terrible death-curse against the traitorous Incarnae. The Unconquered Sun and his compatriots had anticipated this, however, and crafted mighty magic to protect themselves. What they failed to
notice was that the death-curse of the fallen ancients, thwarted by the gods, took root in the hearts of their Chosen. That Great Curse still haunts the Solar Exalted to this day, leaving a seed of darkness in each hero Chosen by the Unconquered Sun. The Curse expresses itself in moments of great stress and hardship, inflating the Solar's passions into gross displays of
unrestrained and destructive excess. The growing strength of the Great Curse is measured by a trait called Limit.
Limit
Limit is a measure of stress, self-doubt, and mental instability. As a Solar accrues Limit, the power of the Great Curse gains a stronger purchase on his soul. While this growing corruption may be invisible to others, the cursed Exalt finds his thoughts wandering in darker directions. When he reaches 10 Limit, the Curse spills over and can no longer be contained, erupting into
Limit Break. The Solar Exalted gain Limit in the following ways:
• Once per scene, when a character acts in a way that opposes one of his Major Intimacies, his player rolls a single die, gaining one point of Limit for each success (unless he's already rolled for acting against a Defining Intimacy; see below). Note that weakening an Intimacy always
counts as opposing it, as does spending Willpower to resist an influence roll supported by that Intimacy.
• Once per scene, when a character acts against one of his Defining Intimacies, his player rolls two dice for Limit (or one die if he's already rolled for acting against a Major Intimacy). This otherwise functions as acting against a Major Intimacy, above.
• All Solars have a Limit Trigger selected at character creation, a special condition under which a character can gain Limit. When a character's Limit Trigger is met, his player rolls three dice for Limit, gaining one point per success.
Limit Triggers
Below are a number of potential Limit Triggers. This list is meant to be illustrative rather than exhaustive—players should feel free to design their own Limit Trigger (with the Storyteller's approval). A Limit Trigger should be a situation that the character finds stressful, traumatic, or frustrating.
• The Solar is insulted, belittled, or deliberately frustrated by another character.
• The Solar tells a lie, deliberately deceives someone, or breaks a sworn oath.
• The Solar sees innocents suffering, and is either unable or unwilling to help them.
• The Solar is hindered or defeated by the self-indulgent and intemperate behavior of those around him.
• The Solar's allies suffer a setback or defeat because of a mistake he made.
• The Solar is faced with the opportunity to advance his own cause by harming an innocent or ignoring one's suffering.
• The Solar's emotions lead him into a course of action that he regrets.
• The Solar is denied a favorite pleasure or vice, either by circumstance, another character, or his own decisions.
Limit Break and Virtue Flaws
Once a character has accumulated 10 Limit points, he will enter a state called Limit Break—the manifest expression of the Great Curse. Limit Break may or may not manifest immediately; the Great Curse is insidious, and tends to erupt into full bloom only when the Exalt's actions have the potential to create significant turmoil or suffering. An Exalt in the midst of an argument with his Circle is likely to experience the full effects of the Great Curse immediately, while one trekking through the vast desert of the South might continue to travel for several days before the effects of his Limit Break manifest. The timing of such manifestations are ultimately up to the
Storyteller.
The precise manifestation the Great Curse takes is known as a Virtue Flaw. Several potential Virtue Flaws are described below, and the Storyteller may create new ones as suits the needs of his story. A Solar's Virtue Flaw isn't fixed—the Storyteller should choose whichever one is most suited to the character's current situation or seems like the most dramatic choice. All Virtue
Flaws share the following features:
• Each Virtue Flaw forces the character to act out some kind of behavior that is harmful to those around him or to himself. The behavior enforced by Limit Break is treated as a Defining Principle, applying a +4 or -3 to the character's Resolve against relevant influence rolls and allowing the character to treat certain types of influence as unacceptable.
• In addition, if a character could treat an influence roll as unacceptable due to Limit Break, he must—he does not have the option of letting it be resolved as normal.
• Being in Limit Break is an intensely emotional experience, a powerful cathartic reaction to whatever stress has driven a character to it—it feels good, or at least necessary, even as it is traumatic. As a result, when a character ends his Limit Break he resets his Willpower points to
equal his permanent Willpower, regardless of whether this causes him to gain or lose Willpower.
• Each Virtue Flaw specifies a duration of either session or scene. Those that have a session-long duration last for the remainder of the session of play. If the Limit Break occurs towards the end of the session, or there isn't an opportunity for it to have any impact on the game, the Storyteller
may choose to have it spill over into the next session as well. Those that have a scene-long duration last for a single scene of play. In addition, each Limit Break has a condition which can end it prematurely if met.
• Once a Limit Break ends, the character loses all points of accumulated Limit.
It seems like tweaked version of the 2ed version just altered to take the lack of Virtue into account. I was right about it being more tied to Intimacies at least.
Does it mention of the other Exalted still suffer from the Great Curse?
No kidding. All the Exalted are just champions of their gods given divine power. Don't know if the Elemental dragons would count as gods, but they are certainly the most powerful elementals if not. Point is you need a divine being choosing you and giving you divine power to be a exalted. These guys could just be done by anyone from the sound of it.
Though I will say this. They sound better than prometheans cause it looks like they don't invoke disquiet and wastelands. People just freak out if the essence are low and they can see the real forms of these beings. Now imagine if they made pyros a rare substance and did that for the game. I bet you people in world of darkness chats would be playing prometheans far more often.
Quote from: Nexus;818506It seems like tweaked version of the 2ed version just altered to take the lack of Virtue into account. I was right about it being more tied to Intimacies at least.
Does it mention of the other Exalted still suffer from the Great Curse?
Yes but they're not described in the core. I'm assuming it will be covered with the individual splat books.
Quote from: Snowman0147;818507No kidding. All the Exalted are just champions of their gods given divine power. Don't know if the Elemental dragons would count as gods, but they are certainly the most powerful elementals if not. Point is you need a divine being choosing you and giving you divine power to be a exalted. These guys could just be done by anyone from the sound of it.
Though I will say this. They sound better than prometheans cause it looks like they don't invoke disquiet and wastelands. People just freak out if the essence are low and they can see the real forms of these beings. Now imagine if they made pyros a rare substance and did that for the game. I bet you people in world of darkness chats would be playing prometheans far more often.
There's mention of a Dark Mother who uses the bodies of botched resurrection to make Liminals but still no matter how you cut it, liminals just don't fit the mold of Exalted.
Martial Arts
This Ability is important in combat.
Martial Arts covers formal study of martial systems, such as the styles detailed in Chapter Seven. In addition to providing mastery of unarmed techniques, Martial Arts also facilitates the use of certain exotic weapons, such as the staff, the rope dart, sais, and hook swords. Like Brawl, it can be used to calculate a character’s Parry Defense.
Special rules: Martial Arts is a special Ability, which a character must possess the Martial Artist Merit (p. XX) to purchase. Martial Arts cannot be taken as a Caste or Favored Ability by itself. Instead, if Brawl is a Caste or Favored Ability, then so is Martial Arts. If Brawl is a Caste Ability, then Martial Arts can be taken as a character’s Supernal Ability, if desired—but if Brawl is a character’s Supernal Ability, this benefit does not extend to Martial Arts.
Like Craft, when a character first buys this Ability, she must declare a martial arts style which her Martial Arts dots represent mastery of. Chapter Seven contains a number of example martial arts styles characters might choose from, such as Snake Style, Tiger Style, Steel Devil Style, or Dreaming Pearl Courtesan Style. Additional styles must be purchased as independent Abilities— thus, a character might have Martial Arts (Snake style) 5, and Martial Arts (Tiger style) 3.
Merit
Martial Artist (••••)—Purchased
Prerequisite: Brawl •
The character has undergone systematic training in at least one formal combat art. Perhaps she
was raised as an Immaculate monk, or studied in a dojo during her journeys. This Merit allows
the character to purchase the Martial Arts Ability.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That seems like it will be a bit costly experience wise and a odd for some of the Martial artist in my game who don't use formal "Styles".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flaws are back.
But they're free and optional. You can select some if you wish but you don't get any direct award for it. If it significantly harms or hinders your character you can be exp bonus.
The changes they made to Sorcery are interesting. You don't cast from your motes. You cast from the motes of the universe. You gather these motes each round by succeeding at a roll, and when you have enough motes you can cast your spell.
There is billions of way to be initiated into sorcery, and each of these billions of initiations provides benefit. Say, a demon gave you the power to do sorcery. Or an artifact. Or even a potion (these examples are given in the books). Depending on your initiation, you could draw additional sorcerous motes by killing people, or be invulnerable to poison.
Basically, sorcery is available to any mortal. If you meet a Raksha who feel playful today: boom, instant sorcery for you. If you meet a god who wants your help: boom, instant sorcery for you. As you don't need personal motes or even "enlightenment" to do sorcery, it actually fills the place of thaumaturgy in the previous edition. Thaumaturgy is now unteachable by books, without internal logic, and a thaumaturgic ritual can only be passed through direct initiation. As such, what was actually expected of Thaumaturgy in the previous edition has entirely been transfered to Sorcery. Exalted sorcerers do get the Thaumaturgy merit for free if they're interested in picking up a few small scale rituals to supplement their magical repertoire but mortals have to buy it.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;818527The changes they made to Sorcery are interesting. You don't cast from your motes. You cast from the motes of the universe. You gather these motes each round by succeeding at a roll, and when you have enough motes you can cast your spell.
There is billions of way to be initiated into sorcery, and each of these billions of initiations provides benefit. Say, a demon gave you the power to do sorcery. Or an artifact. Or even a potion (these examples are given in the books). Depending on your initiation, you could draw additional sorcerous motes by killing people, or be invulnerable to poison.
Basically, sorcery is available to any mortal. If you meet a Raksha who feel playful today: boom, instant sorcery for you. If you meet a god who wants your help: boom, instant sorcery for you. As you don't need personal motes or even "enlightenment" to do sorcery, it actually fills the place of thaumaturgy in the previous edition. Thaumaturgy is now unteachable by books, without internal logic, and a thaumaturgic ritual can only be passed through direct initiation. As such, what was actually expected of Thaumaturgy in the previous edition has entirely been transfered to Sorcery. Exalted sorcerers do get the Thaumaturgy merit for free if they're interested in picking up a few small scale rituals to supplement their magical repertoire but mortals have to buy it.
Okay, now
that is a major change.
Wow, Proteus got thread banned from the Exalted Developer's thread for asking about the latest leak. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?745142-Exalted-Ask-the-Devs-pt2-%28Hidden-Meaning-Behind-Veiled-Words-Style%29&p=18807499#post18807499) No warning, just an immediate kick. It was revered on appeal but damn, that was kneejerk.
What a shit! All the guy did was ask a simple question. Onyx Path could had just refuse to answer that due to legal issues and be done with it, but no. They had to ban the person that ask a question. Gee... Onyx Path no wonder people hate you.
Quote from: Nexus;819404Wow, Proteus got thread banned from the Exalted Developer's thread for asking about the latest leak. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?745142-Exalted-Ask-the-Devs-pt2-%28Hidden-Meaning-Behind-Veiled-Words-Style%29&p=18807499#post18807499) No warning, just an immediate kick. It was revered on appeal but damn, that was kneejerk.
Not
quite sure what he would have expected. "Hey writers, can we talk about this leak of your game, that we only have because someone broke their contract with you?" If they allowed
any discussion
at all, posters would be trying to find "the line", and then inevitably complain "but I was just asking questions :'( " when they got sanctioned for it. If you don't want people to discuss a particular text, better to cut it off before it gets started.
If people don't approve of NDA's in RPG circles... don't work under one. It's pretty pathetic to break your contract just so you can say that you released the Exalted rules to the world; nobody gives a shit, and you won't get to work on any other projects that you might like in future. Anon # 987654321 is not going to go down in history as the next Samuel Shaw or Anat Kamm.
NDA's
may reduce some people's pre-release interest in a game, and that's fine, but it's really a decision that the project team get to take, not their playtesters arbitrarily deciding whether to follow their contracts or not.
Quote from: Ladybird;819425Not quite sure what he would have expected. "Hey writers, can we talk about this leak of your game, that we only have because someone broke their contract with you?" If they allowed any discussion at all, posters would be trying to find "the line", and then inevitably complain "but I was just asking questions :'( " when they got sanctioned for it. If you don't want people to discuss a particular text, better to cut it off before it gets started.
*shrug*
I don't think he pushed any great line by asking "What version of the rules was leaked?" Its easy enough to say "We're not talking about it" But the summary thread band was a little much. I could see a warning, sure. Hell apparently the more level (and not employed by OP) mod staff agreed it was over reaction so I don't think I'm totally coming from left field on that one. Apparently it wasn't even worth a warning.
And it fits with ongoing pattern of oddly strict Mod calls when it comes to Exalted and Exalted discussions.
Quote from: Nexus;819427And it fits with ongoing pattern of oddly strict Mod calls when it comes to Exalted and Exalted discussions.
Yeah, it's certainly the most darling of all the purple darlings.
How about you go to the site if you agree with them so much? The guy ask a simple question and didn't deserve a ban. If any thing that dev/moderator is in the wrong and a strong case while developers shouldn't be forum moderators. At least in the threads that is talking about their games.
Quote from: Snowman0147;819432How about you go to the site if you agree with them so much? The guy ask a simple question and didn't deserve a ban. If any thing that dev/moderator is in the wrong and a strong case while developers shouldn't be forum moderators. At least in the threads that is talking about their games.
Isn't all this an example of why most of us aren't there anymore? ;)
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;819438Isn't all this an example of why most of us aren't there anymore? ;)
JG
Well she is always seem to be siding with that site any time this shit pops up. What does that tell you?
lol...so just because not everyone jumps on the hate-rpg-net-bandwagon all the time, you think those users are some kind of rpg.net fanboy or girl (or even a purple spy?!)? Yeah, no. Maybe those users are just a bit more mellow and/or better informed than you :P ;)
As to the leak - i think OP has a bigger problem. As far as we know, they more or less closed the playtest down after the first leak and went back to in-house playtesting. So it seems there is a leak more or less in-house....or you know the cleaning lady leaked it :D
Quote from: Anglachel;819463lol...so just because not everyone jumps on the hate-rpg-net-bandwagon all the time, you think those users are some kind of rpg.net fanboy or girl (or even a purple spy?!)? Yeah, no. Maybe those users are just a bit more mellow and/or better informed than you :P ;)
As to the leak - i think OP has a bigger problem. As far as we know, they more or less closed the playtest down after the first leak and went back to in-house playtesting. So it seems there is a leak more or less in-house....or you know the cleaning lady leaked it :D
Spy? Seriously? This is a completely open forum. Not part of this place is hidden, as far as I know.
So having taken a look though 3rd Edition, all I can really say about it is that it's average. The chafe of 2nd Edition has been thoroughly scourged, the mechanics are functional, and there are a lot of neat new ideas to play around with. But for all the problems it fixes, 3e is still burdened with chafe from 1st edition, ridiculously complicated, antiquated rules system, and the insufferably pretension Onyx Path/White Wolf is famous for.
John and Holden were not the right people for 3e. Everything from their unwillingness to learn from fifteen years worth of game development, obnoxious fanboyism, obsessive secrecy, moronic hatred of better game systems, and shitty unprofessional attitude hamstrung the project. In the right hands, 3e could have been a truly great game. As it stands, it's merely a mediocre one. But hey, mediocrity is a huge improvement for this gameline so I guess I shouldn't bitch too much.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;819489But hey, mediocrity is a huge improvement for this gameline so I guess I shouldn't bitch too much.
They should put that quote on the back cover.
JG
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;819489So having taken a look though 3rd Edition, all I can really say about it is that it's average. The chafe of 2nd Edition has been thoroughly scourged, the mechanics are functional, and there are a lot of neat new ideas to play around with. But for all the problems it fixes, 3e is still burdened with chafe from 1st edition, ridiculously complicated, antiquated rules system, and the insufferably pretension Onyx Path/White Wolf is famous for.
John and Holden were not the right people for 3e. Everything from their unwillingness to learn from fifteen years worth of game development, obnoxious fanboyism, obsessive secrecy, moronic hatred of better game systems, and shitty unprofessional attitude hamstrung the project. In the right hands, 3e could have been a truly great game. As it stands, it's merely a mediocre one. But hey, mediocrity is a huge improvement for this gameline so I guess I shouldn't bitch too much.
I wanted to look deeper into the game but, frankly, I can't muster up the energy to dig into that phone book except in small chunks. The background/setting material became tedious pretty quickly either that same stuff or colored with the new developers particular spin which generally isn't my cuppa.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;819489John and Holden were not the right people for 3e. Everything from their unwillingness to learn from fifteen years worth of game development, obnoxious fanboyism, obsessive secrecy, moronic hatred of better game systems, and shitty unprofessional attitude hamstrung the project. In the right hands, 3e could have been a truly great game. As it stands, it's merely a mediocre one. But hey, mediocrity is a huge improvement for this gameline so I guess I shouldn't bitch too much.
Seriously the Ink Monkey team made me literally believe I can pull off a better exalted game than them. Hell anyone with half a brain can pull it off better than the Ink Monkey team.
Just make sure they never lay hands on another game ever again. You would actually be doing a world a favor by doing that.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;819489So having taken a look though 3rd Edition, all I can really say about it is that it's average. The chafe of 2nd Edition has been thoroughly scourged, the mechanics are functional, and there are a lot of neat new ideas to play around with. But for all the problems it fixes, 3e is still burdened with chafe from 1st edition, ridiculously complicated, antiquated rules system, and the insufferably pretension Onyx Path/White Wolf is famous for.
John and Holden were not the right people for 3e. Everything from their unwillingness to learn from fifteen years worth of game development, obnoxious fanboyism, obsessive secrecy, moronic hatred of better game systems, and shitty unprofessional attitude hamstrung the project. In the right hands, 3e could have been a truly great game. As it stands, it's merely a mediocre one. But hey, mediocrity is a huge improvement for this gameline so I guess I shouldn't bitch too much.
What did you think of "Sorcerous Workings"?
Quote from: Nexus;819614What did you think of "Sorcerous Workings"?
Arguably one of the best elements of 3e. It's a functional, evocative system that works really well. If they had tried something that innovative and new with Charms, I'd have a much higher opinion of 3e.
The lack of updates, the excessive secrecy and obscenely long delay has almost ruined this project for me.
Quote from: theye1;819833The lack of updates, the excessive secrecy and obscenely long delay has almost ruined this project for me.
The secrecy thing is odd and the "Ask the Developers" thread really shines a spot light on it. Its got to be one of the most uninformative "Ask A..." discussions I've seen. The mechanics are off limits, sections of the fluff are off limits even some of the softball fan wank questions ("If Exalts were ice cream, what flavor would they be?" "What toppings would Kekjak get on his pizza?") go unanswered because the answers would be too "complex" or whatever.
Anyone seen the fiction Anthology backers received? There seem to be either some inconsistencies or major changes from what's been said. For example an Air Aspect Terrestrial exalted as a Solar or is that a misunderstanding?
Quote from: theye1;819833The lack of updates, the excessive secrecy and obscenely long delay has almost ruined this project for me.
If it's good when it comes out, what do the delays and secrecy matter?
Just mentally put the game to one side, and look back in a few months.
Delays are annoying, extensive ones even more so. I can't speak for everyone but for me its not the secrecy (though it is odd) its the constant baiting and "I know a secret but I won't tell *tee hee*" stuff that got on my nerves. You're not going to talk about it don't but that stuff got childish after awhile.
Quote from: Nexus;819869Delays are annoying, extensive ones even more so. I can't speak for everyone but for me its not the secrecy (though it is odd) its the constant baiting and "I know a secret but I won't tell *tee hee*" stuff that got on my nerves. You're not going to talk about it don't but that stuff got childish after awhile.
I agree with you that sort of stuff is massively annoying, but I just don't see why that matters past the day of release. Past release day, the game should stand or fall based on it's own merits.
I can understand frustration, annoyance and not wanting to reward a person or company for asinine behavior. If I go out to eat and the service rude, slow and sloppy but foods good I'm not going back. There are other restaurants.
I still think they should have went with Momentum instead of Initiative.
Quote from: Ladybird;819872I agree with you that sort of stuff is massively annoying, but I just don't see why that matters past the day of release. Past release day, the game should stand or fall based on it's own merits.
Think is we live in a capitalist society and better companies out there that produce games. I mean they get their kickstarters on time, they don't do secrecy bullshit, don't have a shitty attitude, and their books are good quality. So yes base on this fact alone Exalted 3rd edition should fail.
Quote from: Snowman0147;819879Think is we live in a capitalist society and better companies out there that produce games. I mean they get their kickstarters on time, they don't do secrecy bullshit, don't have a shitty attitude, and their books are good quality. So yes base on this fact alone Exalted 3rd edition should fail.
Deserve's got nothin' to do with it. (http://somethingsensitive.com/Smileys/default/clint.png)
Quote from: Nexus;819874I still think they should have went with Momentum instead of Initiative.
I think they should have scrapped the entire system and approached it from a different angle. Polishing a turd doesn't make it any less a turd.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;819885I think they should have scrapped the entire system and approached it from a different angle. Polishing a turd doesn't make it any less a turd.
It makes it a shiny turd. And as the guys behind Cards Against Humanity proved, lots of people will shell out money for feces.
Quote from: Ladybird;819856If it's good when it comes out, what do the delays and secrecy matter?
Just mentally put the game to one side, and look back in a few months.
My problem isn't the delays, per se, but it's how the delays have been handled that I have an issue with. Ideally, when a functioning project has been delayed the development becomes more open. Except the opposite seemed to have happen for Exalted. As time goes on, the developers have become more secretive for no apparent reason at all. I still have no idea what the system looks like, because I refuse to look at the leaked documents.
Despite this, I am probably going to love Exalted.
Quote from: Rincewind1;819880Deserve's got nothin' to do with it. (http://somethingsensitive.com/Smileys/default/clint.png)
A phrase that applies so well to so many situations.
JG
Well, the fiction anthology was apparently a bomb.
Quote from: Snowman0147;819439Well she is always seem to be siding with that site any time this shit pops up. What does that tell you?
That our mods allow a diverse number of opinions to be expressed here?
Quote from: Nexus;819948Well, the fiction anthology was apparently a bomb.
How bad we talking here?
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;819986How bad we talking here?
Dune prequels.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;819986How bad we talking here?
The best of the stories reads like generic fantasy. Honestly, I am shocked they even published some of the stories.
It is so bad that the developers had to come out and say they had nothing to do with the project.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;819986How bad we talking here?
Its being described as several unrelated stories that bear little relation to each other or Exalted except for a thin veneer of Exalted trappings by people that don't seem to have done anything but glanced over the setting.
Some of the gems mentioned are a "magic academy" run and staffed by several Solar Exalted, openly, who associate with mortals, openly with no apparent repercussions, the Empress becoming the Emperor, a Dragonblooded not only Exalting again as a Solar but keeping her Terrestrial Exalt powers and a Godzilla sized Exigent rampaging through the Imperial city, probably the most "possible" deviation since Exigents are a wildcard (and Lunars had a Kaiju charm in 2ed anyway).
Apparently there's more but those are the ones that get mentioned the most. They say there are some good stories in the collection but the overall reaction has been disappointment, some anger and a resigned "Good thing its was "free".
Quote from: TristramEvans;819953That our mods allow a diverse number of opinions to be expressed here?
oh snap
Quote from: Nexus;820016Its being described as several unrelated stories that bear little relation to each other or Exalted except for a thin veneer of Exalted trappings by people that don't seem to have done anything but glanced over the setting.
Some of the gems mentioned are a "magic academy" run and staffed by several Solar Exalted, openly, who associate with mortals, openly with no apparent repercussions, the Empress becoming the Emperor, a Dragonblooded not only Exalting again as a Solar but keeping her Terrestrial Exalt powers and a Godzilla sized Exigent rampaging through the Imperial city, probably the most "possible" deviation since Exigents are a wildcard (and Lunars had a Kaiju charm in 2ed anyway).
Apparently there's more but those are the ones that get mentioned the most. They say there are some good stories in the collection but the overall reaction has been disappointment, some anger and a resigned "Good thing its was "free".
Like I said, Dune prequels.
Written by hacks with no knowledge or care as to the source material.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;820030Like I said, Dune prequels.
Written by hacks with no knowledge or care as to the source material.
The
House trilogy were passable, I don't know why people whine about them so much. At least they're not as batshit as some of the later Dune books.
The prehistory type trilogy, about the Butlerian Jihad, on the other hand was complete drivel.
Sometimes I really wish I'd gotten the Exalted 1st Edition core, used it as the basis for Hero System setting and never even look at another book in the line (with the possible exception of Scavenger Sons).
Quote from: Kiero;820076The House trilogy were passable, I don't know why people whine about them so much. At least they're not as batshit as some of the later Dune books.
The prehistory type trilogy, about the Butlerian Jihad, on the other hand was complete drivel.
Hence why I said
PREQUELS.
Quote from: Kiero;820076The House trilogy were passable, I don't know why people whine about them so much.
Passable mediocrity is an derisible follow-up to genius.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;820165Hence why I said PREQUELS.
Yes, there were
two prequel trilogies. The House trilogy and the Butlerian Jihad trilogy. As I said, one was alright and the other awful.
Quote from: TristramEvans;820182Passable mediocrity is an derisible follow-up to genius.
I'm not sure I'd call the batshit weirdness of the later Dune books "genius".
Quote from: Kiero;820210Yes, there were two prequel trilogies. The House trilogy and the Butlerian Jihad trilogy. As I said, one was alright and the other awful.
Eh, fair enough. I tend to forget the House trilogy, since it's in fact so forgettable. Or maybe the Butlerian Jihad trilogy was so bad that that it manages to overshadow the other.
Quote from: Kiero;820210I'm not sure I'd call the batshit weirdness of the later Dune books "genius".
I certainly would. Then, I didn't find them "weird".
Quote from: Snowman0147;819879Think is we live in a capitalist society and better companies out there that produce games. I mean they get their kickstarters on time, they don't do secrecy bullshit, don't have a shitty attitude, and their books are good quality. So yes base on this fact alone Exalted 3rd edition should fail.
Never mind better companies -
different creative teams within Onyx Path do way better about finishing Kickstarters off on time, keeping the backers in the loop about what's going on, and maintaining a good attitude all the way through.
Compare, for instance, the Exalted team's flaps about their leaks to the approach of the Demon: the Descent designers, which was to post the first draft of the book as part of the Kickstarter pitch so people could see whether they considered it at all worth backing to begin with. That free download is still available and they straight-up don't care because they'd rather use rough documents like that as advertisements for the finish product than run around playing whack-a-mole trying to suppress something that's already irreversibly out in the wild.
Any thoughts or opinions on the setting changes? I really wasn't that interested in them. Just seemed like piling on more to an already jammed setting. I'm not big on thickly detailed settings to begin with though. I get information overload quickly.
Perversely while expanding the setting it feels like they've reduced the variety somehow, turned the faux Asia up to 11 and pushed anything else to the side. I like Exalted Kung fu/Wuxia elements but they're threatening to drown out everything else (like some felt the anime elements were doing before). And some of the changes seem to have been implemented to appeal to the loudest complainers in the last edition which means the Solars got more crap smeared on them, the DB got a boost, the power level cranked down and the angst level cranked up.
Quote from: Nexus;820481Any thoughts or opinions on the setting changes? I really wasn't that interested in them. Just seemed like piling on more to an already jammed setting. I'm not big on thickly detailed settings to begin with though. I get information overload quickly.
Perversely while expanding the setting it feels like they've reduced the variety somehow, turned the faux Asia up to 11 and pushed anything else to the side. I like Exalted Kung fu/Wuxia elements but they're threatening to drown out everything else (like some felt the anime elements were doing before). And some of the changes seem to have been implemented to appeal to the loudest complainers in the last edition which means the Solars got more crap smeared on them, the DB got a boost, the power level cranked down and the angst level cranked up.
The faux Asian/Wuxia annoys me too. I was hoping they would push a strong sword and sorcery vibe because Fafard and the Grey Mouser is
my shit. But, no, just more of the same crap from 1e, only with more polish and angst. Whatever. The system is more or less functional in this edition, so I'll just cut out the parts I don't like, and if worse comes to worst, I'll drop the system entirely and use Mutants and Masterminds 3e.
Quote from: Warthur;820425Never mind better companies - different creative teams within Onyx Path do way better about finishing Kickstarters off on time, keeping the backers in the loop about what's going on, and maintaining a good attitude all the way through.
Onyx Path isn't doing any thing to fix those issues with the Exalted staff though. Yeah I know demon went amazing. Hell the world of darkness books went pretty well. Though if I was running a company I would want all my books to do well. I would be right up the Exalted team's ass for the shit they are doing and the lack of performance. I would demand some answers.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;820532I was hoping they would push a strong sword and sorcery vibe because Fafard and the Grey Mouser is my shit.
Not to derail the thread, but do you like Savage Worlds? Pinnacle is coming out with a series of Savage Lankhmar books in the next year or so. You might want to keep an eye out for those. Even if it's not a system you like, SW stuff is usually pretty easy to transfer over to other systems, anyway.
Quote from: Snowman0147;820534Onyx Path isn't doing any thing to fix those issues with the Exalted staff though. Yeah I know demon went amazing. Hell the world of darkness books went pretty well. Though if I was running a company I would want all my books to do well. I would be right up the Exalted team's ass for the shit they are doing and the lack of performance. I would demand some answers.
So far as I can tell the hands-off approach is a deliberate policy decision by Richard Thomas - at least publicly, he's said that he'd prefer to give individual teams their creative freedom to run things their way than put out a compromised product as a result of rushing them.
Personally, if I were in his position I'd be just as tempted to tear the Exalted team a new one as you were, but equally I'd be very aware that my time is limited and divided between a swathe of different projects, and time I give to Exalted is time I take away from them - and whilst the Exalted situation is deeply embarrassing, I still need to do what I need to do for the other projects to keep them on track, because if they start to slide it'd be even more embarrassing for the company. It's too late to save Exalted from the stigma of being highly delayed, but at the same time it may be possible to contain the damage so that whatever flawed practices got us to this point don't affect our other lines.
Quote from: Warthur;820653So far as I can tell the hands-off approach is a deliberate policy decision by Richard Thomas - at least publicly, he's said that he'd prefer to give individual teams their creative freedom to run things their way than put out a compromised product as a result of rushing them.
Personally, if I were in his position I'd be just as tempted to tear the Exalted team a new one as you were, but equally I'd be very aware that my time is limited and divided between a swathe of different projects, and time I give to Exalted is time I take away from them - and whilst the Exalted situation is deeply embarrassing, I still need to do what I need to do for the other projects to keep them on track, because if they start to slide it'd be even more embarrassing for the company. It's too late to save Exalted from the stigma of being highly delayed, but at the same time it may be possible to contain the damage so that whatever flawed practices got us to this point don't affect our other lines.
makes sense
Nah, Rich is the same douche as the rest of the Exalted team. Shitty attitude and no sense of what customer-support and customer-care means. None.
As to the setting changes...i have to say i seem to like them. I have to read them more carefully when the pdf hits, but on a first glance on the leak doc, i liked a lot of it. The only thing i have no use for are all the new Exalted types...utterly useless (safe for the Exigents, i think that is going to be cool).
Yeah just keep the original five exalted types and exigents. Things should be golden so long as they don't do the shittiest thing such as make a bunch of mirror charms for abyssals that requires the solar book to read. That is fucking bullshit.
Quote from: Anglachel;820685Nah, Rich is the same douche as the rest of the Exalted team. Shitty attitude and no sense of what customer-support and customer-care means. None.
As to the setting changes...i have to say i seem to like them. I have to read them more carefully when the pdf hits, but on a first glance on the leak doc, i liked a lot of it. The only thing i have no use for are all the new Exalted types...utterly useless (safe for the Exigents, i think that is going to be cool).
What did you like in particular?
I am mixed on Exigents. The basic concept of Exalts are "lesser" Gods is pretty sound, but the setting is already so crowded with Exalts figuratively battling for niches that adding a grab bag build your own class seems a little redundant. That and I've never liked Exaltation presented as such mechanistic thing that it can be bought, sold, traded for and stolen (Black Market Exaltations?) even in a very figurative sense.
If I use the Exigent material, I think I will use it Godblooded or similar beings and keep the Exalted as their own class of being and a unique product of the Incarna.
Quote from: Nexus;820703I am mixed on Exigents. The basic concept of Exalts are "lesser" Gods is pretty sound, but the setting is already so crowded with Exalts figuratively battling for niches that adding a grab bag build your own class seems a little redundant. That and I've never liked Exaltation presented as such mechanistic thing that it can be bought, sold, traded for and stolen (Black Market Exaltations?) even in a very figurative sense.
If I use the Exigent material, I think I will use it Godblooded or similar beings and keep the Exalted as their own class of being and a unique product of the Incarna.
I think this is why (besides cluttering things up still further with more unnecessary Exalt-types) Exigents don't sit right with me. Everything about them was already introduced with God-Blooded. Including gods being able to directly invest a mortal with a slice of their power to act on their behalf.
Quote from: Warthur;820425Never mind better companies - different creative teams within Onyx Path do way better about finishing Kickstarters off on time, keeping the backers in the loop about what's going on, and maintaining a good attitude all the way through.
Compare, for instance, the Exalted team's flaps about their leaks to the approach of the Demon: the Descent designers, which was to post the first draft of the book as part of the Kickstarter pitch so people could see whether they considered it at all worth backing to begin with. That free download is still available and they straight-up don't care because they'd rather use rough documents like that as advertisements for the finish product than run around playing whack-a-mole trying to suppress something that's already irreversibly out in the wild.
If it wasn't vague and unaccountable, would it really be Exalted?
JG
Quote from: Kiero;820704I think this is why (besides cluttering things up still further with more unnecessary Exalt-types) Exigents don't sit right with me. Everything about them was already introduced with God-Blooded. Including gods being able to directly invest a mortal with a slice of their power to act on their behalf.
Well, in 2nd at least, Exalted shards were a physical thing, I believe Lytek kept them in his office. But even then, Autobot had to show the bigger gods how to make the bloody things, and I highly doubt those gods would teach others how to, and break their monopoly.
I've read every post on this thread and have been educated on much more concerning Ex3.
Fuck. This. Game. I honestly want to see it fail so badly the fanboys fall on each other like starving piranha on meth, taking the developers down in bloody chunks as well. For me, the insane level of narcissism, social justice and censorship have crossed the line.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820823I've read every post on this thread and have been educated on much more concerning Ex3.
Fuck. This. Game. I honestly want to see it fail so badly the fanboys fall on each other like starving piranha on meth, taking the developers down in bloody chunks as well. For me, the insane level of narcissism, social justice and censorship have crossed the line.
Welcome to my world. Though not as bad as the fan base killing itself off. Still the developers need their pink slip and need it badly.
Quote from: Snowman0147;820829Welcome to my world. Though not as bad as the fan base killing itself off. Still the developers need their pink slip and need it badly.
Not literally die, of course. Nor all of them. As with most things it's the loudest and most negative who represent the group and it's those fans...the ones who support the kind of insanity that's killed the game...who need to "die off". Once the rest of us, if ever, can grab the reins, Exalted might have a chance to be a great game.
Quote from: Nexus;820702What did you like in particular?
Hard to say. As i said, i haven't read the doc in detail yet. But somehow some of the snippets i read made me want to play the setting again. The writing was not bad and it infected me again with that over the top epic vibe.
I am just not sure this enthusiasm will survive the first contact with all the fucking charm clutter and other fiddly bits you have to wade through. On the other hand, Blackwingedheaven has made a real nice Cortex + hack, so ... who knows.
Your best bet is look for alternatives. Some one did a FATE hack of Exalted (http://unformed.wikidot.com/fatexalted). Sine Nomine has a high powered OSR games (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons) that mimics the feel of Exalted (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/127180/Scarlet-Heroes). Hell I am doing a alternative with my my own made from scratch system that I hope to sell one day. Point is for epic high powered champion of the gods games are getting some alternatives.
Sure Exalted has a name brand now, but that name brand is dying out because of the constant shit quality that is being poured out. Sooner, or later these alternatives will take over.
I doubt that its going to fail. Ex3 might not be the runaway smash hit its being played up as being but I think its probably going to do well enough. It essentially already has. I'm curious if it will repeat the same pattern as the last two edition though.
I think the real question here is whether this Exalted 3rd debacle has killed off the chances of there being an Exalted 4th somewhere down the line. Certainly, if I were in charge at Onyx Path I'd be really reluctant to greenlight a new edition by the same team.
maybe they will do a ubisoft and move everybody around for no reason
then that wont be a concern
It really depends on the reaction when the core book hits the figurative shelves. And there's no telling at this point.
If anyone claims that theRPGsite is only for stuff the Pundit approves of, they could be pointed to this nearly-100 page thread as a counterargument.
a dam fine counterargument it would make to
Quote from: Nexus;820970It really depends on the reaction when the core book hits the figurative shelves. And there's no telling at this point.
I don't think even negative outcry would unduly affect OP at this point. They made three quarters of a million dollars off the name of the product and the names of the development team alone.
Think about that for a second. 750k, for a fucking chance they might pull this off. And there is no way in hell, that the writing and production of the core, including the special edition is going to eat all that up.
Even if Ex3 tanks, anything they sell at this point is just extra profit.
Just the idea of this game prints money, ffs.
Quote from: RPGPundit;821302If anyone claims that theRPGsite is only for stuff the Pundit approves of, they could be pointed to this nearly-100 page thread as a counterargument.
You dislike the topic, the game, the thread's tone or...?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;821334I don't think even negative outcry would unduly affect OP at this point. They made three quarters of a million dollars off the name of the product and the names of the development team alone.
Think about that for a second. 750k, for a fucking chance they might pull this off. And there is no way in hell, that the writing and production of the core, including the special edition is going to eat all that up.
Even if Ex3 tanks, anything they sell at this point is just extra profit.
Just the idea of this game prints money, ffs.
I agree entirely. Like I've been saying, I don't think its going to fail, its already succeeded in fact. The Exalted brand is a cash cow that's been giving steady for about 10 yrs; its following sometimes seems to border on religious. The KS was so successful and it wasn't even for third edition. It was to finance
extras. The Exalted concept is a real money maker. You'd have to try to mess it up.
3rd would have to be a horrible mess and probably offensive to F.A.T.A.L. levels to fail by any reasonable definition at this point. There might be some intense fan griping out some things, maybe they'll even get put off by some aspects after a few years, more flame between believers and "haters", then there might be a fourth edition.
I'm really curious to see what the intended nature and play style for Solars (and to a degree other Celestials) is meant to be.
The power level has lowered and "narrowed" (to what extend won't be clear until the other Exalt books are out), the Realm has been given more power and more reach and the Terrestrials are a whole (including Outcastes) are even more united against the Anathema and still have a vast numerical bonus in a game where mechanically, numbers are a killer advantage even if you have a significant power advantage.
It seems like its more either playing a RTS as an rpg,going out as far as you can and trying to build up an Empire (starting from a massive disadvantage if you're a Solar) or a game you're expected to run and hide for the majority of it, hoping not to be squashed or sell out to some group with actual power for protection (the Deathlords, the Cult of Illuminated/Gold Faction, the Lunars, the Yozi, etc).
If you go by the complaints on rpg.net this is either due to the fact Solar PCs were taking over the entire setting in a handful of sessions or it was "deprotagonizing" to the other splats. The first hasn't been my experience (and that's after some house rules to give Solars a boost). And I can't comment on the second.
Quote from: RPGPundit;821302If anyone claims that theRPGsite is only for stuff the Pundit approves of, they could be pointed to this nearly-100 page thread as a counterargument.
Granted, it is based on the premise that anyone should care about Exalted anymore.
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;821302If anyone claims that theRPGsite is only for stuff the Pundit approves of, they could be pointed to this nearly-100 page thread as a counterargument.
It's a project led by White Wolf ex-employees and RPGnet mods that's headed for utter, dismal failure. How is that something you do not "approve of"? :D
Quote from: The Butcher;821627It's a project led by White Wolf ex-employees and RPGnet mods that's headed for utter, dismal failure.
I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if the game was a complete dud, but I just don't see it happening. They've already raked in too much money and there are too many rabid fans who will eat anything OP puts out without complaint. The 2nd edition of the game was an utter disaster mechanically (and fluff-wise in many ways) but the thing still sold like crazy even after fans had seen years of mistake after mistake build up into a tsunami of awfulness.
Quote from: Brand55;821646I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if the game was a complete dud, but I just don't see it happening. They've already raked in too much money and there are too many rabid fans who will eat anything OP puts out without complaint. The 2nd edition of the game was an utter disaster mechanically (and fluff-wise in many ways) but the thing still sold like crazy even after fans had seen years of mistake after mistake build up into a tsunami of awfulness.
Not a monetary failure, true.
But they're *way* behind the schedule they set themselves and I'm not sure they can count on inexhaustible fan goodwill, even with the perennial, cultish Exalted thing going on over at RPGnet.
And a good chunk of the fanbase has decried the divulged system changes as immaterial in that they don't fix the Charms mess.
So, as a crowdfunded project and as a rewrite, I'd say it's shambling towards failure.
If any thing the charms had gotten worst.
I feel the reaction to the charms will play a major part in the game's reception. But seems like most of them people pushing for something simpler had moved on to other systems (or just given up) at this point, the few holds being chased out in the post 3rd announcement purge of heretics :D
Exalted does have an large and devoted fanbase. Like was said earlier, the idea of another edition of Exalted made a quarter of a million dollars for Kickstarter just for extras. That's got to impressive, particularly in the rpg market. I mean you have fans planning Exalted themed weddings (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?748892-Exalted-The-Wedding!), FFS.
At least on rpg.net it seems to have brought in a good number of new members and several that have been members for years but have single digit post counts so the their may be quite a silent mass of fans there and out in the world. As intensely as I dislik what its become I doubt it will fail any most any sense.
The current tangential debate is about the fluff changes to an antagonist. The changes are apparently to allow for more subtle, nuance and shades of Gray in the setting as part of the goal of making it more like 1e. Which makes me wonder about why they've seemingly decided to make the Usurpation against the First Age Solars black and white.
If they make the mad ghosts that serve the neverborn and the demons of yozi any where close to good guys then... Well I can't do any thing, but this is butchering the setting. I mean with the neverborn they want to destroy all existence and the yozi are corrupting with their madness.
The only inhuman enemy that has any form of gray is the fae of the wyld and that is because the primordials fuck them over. They are literally just trying to repair the damage that was done in their home.
Its another part of the setting vision for 3rd I'll have to file under "Do Not Want". It doesn't seem be hardwired into the mechancs (The GC is pretty easy to ignore) so its not a deal breaker. The choice just puzzles me.
Its weird how many posters the Exalted threads are bringing out of the woodwork. Either people that seemed to join just to post in it and have been members for years, a decade in the latest case but have post counts in the single or double digits.
Quote from: Nexus;823882Its weird how many posters the Exalted threads are bringing out of the woodwork. Either people that seemed to join just to post in it and have been members for years, a decade in the latest case but have post counts in the single or double digits.
Exalted, I feel, is one of the great unfulfilled promises of the hobby. It was released at a time when D&D was being badly mismanaged and WW was still perceived as a dynamic, edgy newcomer. It chucked zero-to-hero in favor of superheroic protagonists, ostensibly drawing from the epics of Antiquity as well as East Asian pop culture (manga and anime) which hadn't been quite as widely and exhaustively tapped by tabletop RPGs as they've been today.
2e was already a missed opportunity in that it amplified, rather than rectified 1e's mechanical shortcomings. 3e promises to escalate into undebatable clusterfuck territory.
So, speaking strictly for myself, yeah, I'm fucking bitter. You know how some of us, myself included, sometimes whine that Palladium should get their shit together and give their books an overhaul? This is several orders of magnitude worse.
Seconding the Butcher, to a large extent. Exalted has a huge amount of promise in the backgrounds and themes, and at least claimed it was aiming for both mechanically and thematically whole games where most other options didn't really even try to avoid PunPun.
Quote from: Snowman0147;823874If they make the mad ghosts that serve the neverborn and the demons of yozi any where close to good guys then... Well I can't do any thing, but this is butchering the setting. I mean with the neverborn they want to destroy all existence and the yozi are corrupting with their madness.
Eh, even in v1, the Demons were explicitly prisoners of war that were really convenient to use, if you overlook the part where you're magically binding prisoners of war, many of which didn't fight or have a choice during the war itself. Some of them like blood apes deserved it, but Neomah were hookers with hearts of gold since day one.
Making the Mad Ghosts That Serve the Neverborn not have hilariously overblown conquer the world schemes and kitten-kicking contests is kinda disappointing, though.
Except their price for their job is to strip a piece of flesh from you which they use that flesh to create more Neomah. Basicly doing harm to you as well as making more mad hookers. Now given you can say no, but that still doesn't change the fact your dealing with a mad creature that spreads corruption even if they have a heart of gold.
Its amusing that you stand much less chance of getting modhammered for criticizing Onyx Path games on the Onyx Path forums than on TBP these days.
Quote from: Snowman0147;823953Except their price for their job is to strip a piece of flesh from you which they use that flesh to create more Neomah. Basicly doing harm to you as well as making more mad hookers. Now given you can say no, but that still doesn't change the fact your dealing with a mad creature that spreads corruption even if they have a heart of gold.
I don't think they make Neomah out of the captured flesh. The 2E version makes humanish babies out of it and didn't really understand how to care for em. (I think the 1E version were just implied to eat it, but I don't have 1E Rolls of Divinity anymore.) Neither's
good, obviously, but not Ultimate Evil of Evils, either.
If you heard that there's a bordello full of Neomah in Gem, it could well be setting information or a plot lead, rather than The Big Quest for the location and every player dropping everything and burning the place down. Not least of all cause that'd probably be the least unethical house of prostitution in several miles.
Quote from: Snowman0147;823953Except their price for their job is to strip a piece of flesh from you which they use that flesh to create more Neomah. Basicly doing harm to you as well as making more mad hookers. Now given you can say no, but that still doesn't change the fact your dealing with a mad creature that spreads corruption even if they have a heart of gold.
I forget which version but, AIR, Neomah demand flesh for their services and use that flesh to craft unique lifeforms and new demons. To them it is art. They're also contracted by sorcerers to create children for the infertile or for couples that can't otherwise have children like homosexual couples. They also love body arts and often have allot of piercing and tattoos on their otherwise hairless, androgynous bodies. They can shapeshift to a limited degree to meet their clients expectations. I wouldn't say they had a heart of gold exactly, they weren't overtly cruel or malicious but more business like with some artistic temperament, IIRC. Sexual favors weren't a big deal for them.
Which made the outrage over the succubi like creatures Numeara ironic...
I don't remember if they care for the children they produce. I remember Hopping Puppeteers like human children but have no clue how to care for them so tend to "cuddle" and "play" with them until they break.
Quote from: Nexus;823988Its amusing that you stand much less chance of getting modhammered for criticizing Onyx Path games on the Onyx Path forums than on TBP these days.
Modhammering is not Onyx Path's
raison d'etre.JG
Anyone still trying to plow through this beast? Frankly, I've become so burned out I largely don't care anymore.
I am waiting for the book to be released before I make any judgement on Ex3. My hopes aren't high, but I have avoided any pre-release information as it was more likely to lower those hopes than raise them.
Quote from: Skywalker;826446I am waiting for the book to be released before I make any judgement on Ex3. My hopes aren't high, but I have avoided any pre-release information as it was more likely to lower those hopes than raise them.
It certainly lowered mine which weren't high to begin with. Getting a look at what's more or less the final product beyond some polishing isn't doing much better but I guess it depends on what you're looking for.
At the moment, the thing is the rules are so damn....dense. The rule set is okay. There are some nice aspects (Sorcerous Working are neat for that they do) but not the mind blowing hot buttered awesome its being pimped as and I don't agree with some of the assumptions. Its also not "rebuilt from the ground up" at least not so you can tell.
But the rules are big and I don't see them cutting them down too much. I think they have to get it under 900 pages? For my preferences for this sort of game that's way way to much in rules department but I don't it being cut in half between now and release. Even discounting fiction and setting material.
Quote from: Nexus;826466But the rules are big and I don't see them cutting them down too much.
TBH I don't think they ever stated that cutting down the rules was ever a design goal. Looking at the Scroll of Errata, their method has consistently been to build up the rules to patch up the holes.
Quote from: Skywalker;826683TBH I don't think they ever stated that cutting down the rules was ever a design goal.
I don't recall if they said that either and I didn't say it was. but the density of the rules was a fairly common issue and there was some hope that they'd be slimmed down (even completely rewritten) to be easier to handle. That hasn't happened, in fact the opposite has occurred. The rules are bigger, more intricate and if you felt (like I did) this was a problem before this has worsened it. Excessive rules bloat was something I was worried about given that' the nature of the "Ink Monkeys" errata but I held out some hope that could be avoided if they were indeed rebuilding the system from the ground up as the holes that needed such extensive patch work could be avoided.
And its more than just the rules. There's much more in the way of fiddly bits to deal with. Over 700 charms not counting Martial Arts (I think there's 11 styles with 9-10 charm each), spells, artifacts, etc with more to come in future books. Each of them a self contained little rules exception or subsystem.
Quote from: Nexus;826686That hasn't happened, in fact the opposite has occurred. The rules are bigger, more intricate and if you felt (like I did) this was a problem before this has worsened it.
Yeah. This was ultimate fear with Exalted 3e from everything I knew before it KSed. I expect that it will go down like D&D4e did for D&D.
The real problem with the approach is that from a purely mechanical POV it is defendable as there will be an objective improvement to the rules. But only if you also completely dismiss the greater context that makes RPGs fun to play, which many are prepared to do. I can see this fuelling the usual inane and counter-productive debates that have plagued Exalted for years to come.
Overall, I am happy that I decided to stick with Exalted 1e (admittedly using my 2e books as reference).
lol...objective improvement...there is no such thing. Sure, the fanboys will insist on it all day long...but they will also tell you that the Devs shit gold and that the sky is yellow.
I think they totally cheated us out of the promised "rebuilt from the ground up" and the "streamlined" promises. That were goals/promises they made. And all the twisting and re-defining of said words will not help them keep face in respect to that.
Will there be some players who will enjoy 3e infinitely more than 2e? Well sure. The fanbase is there, as the discussion on rpg.net shows (and on the OPP forums) ... but for all those that hoped for a new kind of Exalted experience...it will be an epic disappointment...kind of an Essence 10 elder disappointment :D
The good news is, that when Exalted 4e hits the shelves, US Army will never again go to war with insufficient kevlar vests, as there'll be a cheap alternative ready.
Quote from: Anglachel;826711lol...objective improvement...there is no such thing. Sure, the fanboys will insist on it all day long...but they will also tell you that the Devs shit gold and that the sky is yellow.
I think they totally cheated us out of the promised "rebuilt from the ground up" and the "streamlined" promises. That were goals/promises they made. And all the twisting and re-defining of said words will not help them keep face in respect to that.
Will there be some players who will enjoy 3e infinitely more than 2e? Well sure. The fanbase is there, as the discussion on rpg.net shows (and on the OPP forums) ... but for all those that hoped for a new kind of Exalted experience...it will be an epic disappointment...kind of an Essence 10 elder disappointment :D
Yeah. The setting focus has shifted pretty 180 degrees away from what brought me and my group into the game in the first place. Even better that if you say that you get treated like the game was never pushed because of those things in the first place. The system hasn't really improved that much so that's more of a lateral move and bloat. Though it does seem to be more functional now (though 2e did too until months later).
This 100-page thread will serve as an example of how theRPGsite talks about more than just old school; and furthermore, as how you can have long and successful threads about games I not only don't give a fuck about, but actively dislike.
Quote from: RPGPundit;827020This 100-page thread will serve as an example of how theRPGsite talks about more than just old school; and furthermore, as how you can have long and successful threads about games I not only don't give a fuck about, but actively dislike.
im pretty sure you said that eariler in the thread the first time it was a nice reminder of how great this place is now you just come across as look at me im so great
although the fact i could say that without any fear is itself a great example of how great this place is
I was initially optimistic with a new edition but over time I realized that a) the rule system is shit, b) the fan-base is absolutely rabid, c) I have no confidence in that the developers will be able to turn out a good setting / rule set and d) the setting doesn't do for it for me any longer. I liked the more ancient heroes and gods vibe I got from the 1st edition but the angling towards Manga / Anime does not thrill me as much. Nothing wrong with Manga / Anime it is not just something I fancy as much these days.
Quote from: Nexus;826372Anyone still trying to plow through this beast? Frankly, I've become so burned out I largely don't care anymore.
I gave up after I got halfway through the charms section. 3e just isn't worth the effort. Sure there are some good bits like Sorcery, but on a whole, it's just a mediocre repackaging of 1e with all its faults and failings. I say grab the handful of good concepts 3e presents and trash the rest.
Quote from: nitril;827105I was initially optimistic with a new edition but over time I realized that a) the rule system is shit, b) the fan-base is absolutely rabid, c) I have no confidence in that the developers will be able to turn out a good setting / rule set and d) the setting doesn't do for it for me any longer. I liked the more ancient heroes and gods vibe I got from the 1st edition but the angling towards Manga / Anime does not thrill me as much. Nothing wrong with Manga / Anime it is not just something I fancy as much these days.
The fanbase seems to border on the obsessive but they're also divisive as Hell. Everyone has their own personal vision of "true Exalted" and is rabid about defending it against all comers. Each edition has allowed another group to reach ascendency and becomes the Council of Truth that decides what the game is "really" about and purge the heretics. Until that vision falls fro, popularity or the rule set fails them then them the whole mess starts all over again.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;827160I gave up after I got halfway through the charms section. 3e just isn't worth the effort. Sure there are some good bits like Sorcery, but on a whole, it's just a mediocre repackaging of 1e with all its faults and failings. I say grab the handful of good concepts 3e presents and trash the rest.
You got further than I did, FWIW.
Quote from: Nexus;827163The fanbase seems to border on the obsessive but they're also divisive as Hell. Everyone has their own personal vision of "true Exalted" and is rabid about defending it against all comers. Each edition has allowed another group to reach ascendency and becomes the Council of Truth that decides what the game is "really" about and purge the heretics. Until that vision falls fro, popularity or the rule set fails them then them the whole mess starts all over again.
True it definitely goes through cycles of different fanatics running the agenda. I don't know but it feels like the current developers don't have a clue on what they're doing. I really liked the original premise of the game back in the day and my group and I played the hell out of the 1st ed but now everything has been diluted and gone through so many crappy iterations that my interest has waned. The double standards of the developers and their own fantasy hasn't helped much either.
Quote from: tuypo1;827026im pretty sure you said that eariler in the thread the first time it was a nice reminder of how great this place is now you just come across as look at me im so great
If I said it before, it's just that I forgot I posted something along those lines already. I didn't mean to be repetitive.
Quote from: Kapten;189679391) If a solar has zero combat charms, how capable is he if he gets attacked by mortals? Would he need to fear, say, two regular guardsmen? The same really goes for a solar with no social defenses, would he be in danger if he starts talking with a socially focused dragonblood?
2) How dangerous is the non- wyld hunt world to a newly exalted solar? How many of them dies due to mortals/fair folk/low grade gods etc?
I ask because I found the invincible solars of the previous games to be frustrating as GM. If it would be possible to challenge new solars without bringing every exalt in a given direction within reach of the PCs that would make me happy :).
It never ceases to amaze me how often the question/concern I hear about Exalted is: Why is it so hared to threaten epic demigods with Creation's rank and file? Its too challenging to have them face threats on their level! The Champions of the Gods should be constantly in fear for their lives!
But again I have to wonder where these "invincible starting Solars" were coming from in the first place. Unless you optimized the Hell out of a starting character (which meant they all pretty much looked alike), starting Solars (somewhat experienced ones for that matter) were far from "invincible".
Yeah, that's the fluff-mechanics disconnect that is so (in)famous. Starting Solar do not live up to the promises made in many an advertisement speech about Exalted.
On the other hand, if Exalted are like mortals just with the skill to manipulate Essence, then i think it is totally ok if an Exalt who has not invested in any combat charms is in danger when he faces two or more trained soldiers. Because beside his ability to manipulate Essence, he IS mortal (his maximum in any Attributes and Skills is no higher than for any mortal, so ... ).
And just to be clear, i'm talking heroic mortals (because any candidate for an exaltation is at least a heroic mortal). A peasant from the field is not the same as a trained (heroic) mortal soldier.
Am I like the only person who looks at Kapten's post and wonder if there's a deeper issue here? It sounds to me like he's afraid of letting his/her players be.
I look at that post and wonder if there's something he's afraid of, would a Solar with any charms break his plan? If so, maybe he should look into trying to improvise a little.
Or is it because he has a player that's an utter jerk and will do their best to ruin a campaign?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;829390Am I like the only person who looks at Kapten's post and wonder if there's a deeper issue here? It sounds to me like he's afraid of letting his/her players be.
I look at that post and wonder if there's something he's afraid of, would a Solar with any charms break his plan? If so, maybe he should look into trying to improvise a little.
Or is it because he has a player that's an utter jerk and will do their best to ruin a campaign?
Very well could be. I used his post more of an example of an attitude I've seen from Exalted GM/Players as a whole. And that whole "Invincible Solars" meme that got started when I and any other real life Exalted players I've known have never run into it. In the theoretical land of unlimited experience and constant optimization (with rules that were broken...) maybe but in actual Solars didn't even live up to their narrative hype let alone invincibility.
Quote from: Nexus;829426Very well could be. I used his post more of an example of an attitude I've seen from Exalted GM/Players as a whole. And that whole "Invincible Solars" meme that got started when I and any other real life Exalted players I've known have never run into it. In the theoretical land of unlimited experience and constant optimization (with rules that were broken...) maybe but in actual Solars didn't even live up to their narrative hype let alone invincibility.
And I've found this argument to point to the same problem, GM's not trusting their players, and trying to blame the system (such as it isn't) for it.
That's not saying that Exalted is even a decent system (Never have I ever found a system that so actively hates the GM...) but that all these complaints seem to point to that these posters are so afraid of ultimate power corrupting their own friends. Or some such nonsense.
so any news on a release date yet
Quote from: tuypo1;829543so any news on a release date yet
Last I heard it was probably going to be at least a couple of more months. Something about new art coming in and an additional chapter. I suspect that last might be due to the leak at least in part, making the sure the purchase copies having something new besides the art.
makes sense
Quote from: Christopher Brady;829539That's not saying that Exalted is even a decent system (Never have I ever found a system that so actively hates the GM...)
And I've run AD&D. :D
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;829685And I've run AD&D. :D
JG
My first game, which I was a DM (Actually I DM'ed before being a player) was AD&D 2e, which most of the rules aren't even hard set, they're mostly meant to be used as options. Three separate initiative systems that you're meant to pick one and use, two separate 'skill' systems, and that's just in the core book. If you add the various handbooks (I was a fan of the Fighter's) and then the Options stuff, you get a mishmash of conflicting systems.
But the difference between my experience of 2e and Exalted any edition, is that in 2e you can pick and choose what you want to use. Whereas in Exalted the GM has to know his players, if they're typical WW fans, they'll be totally OK with handwaving, meaning most of the books are extra weight if you have to lug them around.
If your players are into making system compatible characters (and no, I do NOT mean power gamers or munchkins, but rather players who want their choices to just matter) then the GM is forced to memorize every single charm that the Players have access to, and then they have to memorize every charm that his antagonists have.
It's rough enough for an all Solars team, who may face off Abyssals, Terrestrials and maybe Sidereals. But if they're a multi-Exalt crew? You now have to know all the charms, and how they interact with each other. And heaven forfend if you have an Eclipse Solar, who can learn any Charm in the game. The mess that will create is just...
Frankly, I ain't buying that the final product differs "significantly" or at least that it did before now. When the second leak happened there were allot of hackle raised over it being release early and it ruining the final result aside from the art.
Now the final product differs significantly.
I mean it might now and that would explain the additional lengthy delays but something smells.
But Hell. if it got them to clean some more stuff up before release maybe its a good thing over all.
Well, that was quick....
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759339-Jon-Chung-Exalted-Topic-Ban&p=19122396#post19122396
Quote from: Nexus;837508Well, that was quick....
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759339-Jon-Chung-Exalted-Topic-Ban&p=19122396#post19122396
Talk about eating their own.
Quote from: The Butcher;837522Talk about eating their own.
Not much surprise if you've studied how most revolutionary movements work. ;)
JG
Quote from: The Butcher;837522Talk about eating their own.
Its the traditional new edition heretic purge.
Quote from: Nexus;837508Well, that was quick....
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759339-Jon-Chung-Exalted-Topic-Ban&p=19122396#post19122396
I saw that and sighed. They're obviously not interested in any sort of rigorous analysis of all the cruft they're generating. Rule of Cool is all that matters, it seems.
Quote from: Kiero;837623I saw that and sighed. They're obviously not interested in any sort of rigorous analysis of all the cruft they're generating. Rule of Cool is all that matters, it seems.
Here's the thing though. The "Rule of Cool" needs, like everything else in a game, to be consistent, it also needs to be defined well enough to be used, rather than have it be a hand-wave. The problem with the Story Teller system (or however they want to spell it this week) is that it's not even much of a system in that regard, relying primarily on fudging or the GM's good will. And as I'm primarily a GM, I don't want my players to come to me with 'Mother May I?' It insults them, whether they know it or not.
They've made their characters to model a certain thing, it should allow them TO be that 'thing'.
Of course that's just my opinion.
Wow, that "has anything gone right" thread is getting more ridiculous by the minute. The apologetic-crew is in full force again. All is purple and happy... *shakes head*
Let us keep the reality and hate alive, please :D
Quote from: Anglachel;837680Wow, that "has anything gone right" thread is getting more ridiculous by the minute. The apologetic-crew is in full force again. All is purple and happy... *shakes head*
Let us keep the reality and hate alive, please :D
I just do not get the intensity and dedication of Exalted fandom. It seems to above and beyond the typical gamer tendency for creator worship. Its a fun idea but at the end of the day its just an rpg. Some people seem to almost treat it like a religion where the figurative high priests can do no wrong and any failures are the fault of the followers or their lack of faith.
Quote from: Anglachel;837680Wow, that "has anything gone right" thread is getting more ridiculous by the minute. The apologetic-crew is in full force again. All is purple and happy... *shakes head*
Let us keep the reality and hate alive, please :D
There are some really hard core apologists Exalted fan boys and girls out there. Its really bizarre to me that you cant even mildly discuss the failings of the developers without someone jumping to there defense.
The leak actually seems to have done a ton of good press for the developers but they are bitching about it. There fan boys are agreeing. They really don't seem to understand that there are backers, fans, and customers that exist outside their bubble. Or maybe they assume that the people inside their bubble and outside are exactly the same. Which is a different but equally dangerous assumption.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;837743There are some really hard core apologists Exalted fan boys and girls out there. Its really bizarre to me that you cant even mildly discuss the failings of the developers without someone jumping to there defense.
The leak actually seems to have done a ton of good press for the developers but they are bitching about it. There fan boys are agreeing. They really don't seem to understand that there are backers, fans, and customers that exist outside their bubble. Or maybe they assume that the people inside their bubble and outside are exactly the same. Which is a different but equally dangerous assumption.
Just wait till the book drops. Then we will really see the knives come out.
Hell, Lunars alone will cause a bigger shitstorm than Beast if the devs don't remove all those triggering mentions of non consenting breeding.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;837743There are some really hard core apologists Exalted fan boys and girls out there. Its really bizarre to me that you cant even mildly discuss the failings of the developers without someone jumping to there defense.
You've never trawled the old Palladium forums, or the pre-Pathfinder, Pathfinder forums. Those were hotbeds of creator worship, right down to the creepy.
The Pathfinder boards are much better moderated now, so it's actually a pretty decent place now for all things PFRPG.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that you'll always find hotbeds of creator worship, of varying degrees.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;837748You've never trawled the old Palladium forums, or the pre-Pathfinder, Pathfinder forums. Those were hotbeds of creator worship, right down to the creepy.
The Pathfinder boards are much better moderated now, so it's actually a pretty decent place now for all things PFRPG.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that you'll always find hotbeds of creator worship, of varying degrees.
It does seem to be a thing with gamer culture. But I will some games and lines seem to generate more of it than others. IMO, its the games that cultivate a sense of elitism in their fanbase they have the more zealous followers. It becomes an ego and identity issue.
My "problem" with it all is this - the renewed "trust" in the Devs that seems to sprout (especially on rpg.net, where any critic is almost immediately shouted down or even red-texted) from the positivity gained from the leak....and i don't get it. The stuff presented in the leak is...really really not that good. I don't see what all the gushing is about. Some stuff is quite ok (sorcerous workings seems neat) but overall it is not really that different from what we have seen in 1st and 2nd Ed....and we know how that turned out.
On top of that, the new "reasons" the Dev team gives for why the game is so late are ridiculous ... something like "we are the first that do a game this way, and therefore we needed to reboot and build from the ground up" or something to that effect (and they are mostly talking about their "new" momentum mechanic...as if that is something new and all that complicated :rolleyes: ).
It will be interesting to see how long it will take for the majority of Ex3e gamers to realize that this new version is as slow and tedious in play as the two earlier editions were. Because the fancy wears off real fast in play (especially with that oh so inventive "new" pacing for combat).
And then all the lamenting will begin again. But this time, i will have no pitty for them whatsoever. Maybe if you fanboy-fucks would have stopped "protecting" your Devs, they would have finally seen that change is needed. But as long as you support them to the bitter end....no wonder nothing is changing.
Quote from: Anglachel;837769My "problem" with it all is this - the renewed "trust" in the Devs that seems to sprout (especially on rpg.net, where any critic is almost immediately shouted down or even red-texted) from the positivity gained from the leak....and i don't get it. The stuff presented in the leak is...really really not that good. I don't see what all the gushing is about. Some stuff is quite ok (sorcerous workings seems neat) but overall it is not really that different from what we have seen in 1st and 2nd Ed....and we know how that turned out.
On top of that, the new "reasons" the Dev team gives for why the game is so late are ridiculous ... something like "we are the first that do a game this way, and therefore we needed to reboot and build from the ground up" or something to that effect (and they are mostly talking about their "new" momentum mechanic...as if that is something new and all that complicated :rolleyes: ).
It will be interesting to see how long it will take for the majority of Ex3e gamers to realize that this new version is as slow and tedious in play as the two earlier editions were. Because the fancy wears off real fast in play (especially with that oh so inventive "new" pacing for combat).
And then all the lamenting will begin again. But this time, i will have no pitty for them whatsoever. Maybe if you fanboy-fucks would have stopped "protecting" your Devs, they would have finally seen that change is needed. But as long as you support them to the bitter end....no wonder nothing is changing.
I'm in the same boat. It seems okay and functional but I'm not getting "ONG! Its hot buttered awesome that everyone will love!!!!111111" is coming from. I'm just really outside the target audience I guess. Running the combat system with multiple characters seems like it will be a P.I.A.
Quote from: Nexus;837771Running the combat system with multiple characters seems like it will be a P.I.A.
Yeah - that's where I am and I mentioned it on that thread and got told (by a non-developer) that it wasn't supposed to be fast, but fun. I hate "fun but slow" systems because they never are fun. I don't want 3 hour combats between my PCs and like 3 NPCs. The mechanics do sound kinda interesting, but I don't think they fixed the core issue with Exalted which was it was too heavy a system. I think Holden is just doubling down on that criticism. I'm expecting another side-step system like ex2 was. Still about the same "fun" just with a different set of rules and the same ridiculous handling time.
Quote from: Obeeron;837776Yeah - that's where I am and I mentioned it on that thread and got told (by a non-developer) that it wasn't supposed to be fast, but fun. I hate "fun but slow" systems because they never are fun. I don't want 3 hour combats between my PCs and like 3 NPCs. The mechanics do sound kinda interesting, but I don't think they fixed the core issue with Exalted which was it was too heavy a system. I think Holden is just doubling down on that criticism. I'm expecting another side-step system like ex2 was. Still about the same "fun" just with a different set of rules and the same ridiculous handling time.
I agree, slow is not fun, no matter how interesting the things you might be doing in that time are. This was the issue my group had with D&D4e. Combat was fun, but it took so long. Even a simple/short combat took over an hour, and if it involved lots of moving parts, it could easily eat an entire session.
By contrast a combat in 13th Age or ACKS is done in under half an hour.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837745Just wait till the book drops. Then we will really see the knives come out.
Hell, Lunars alone will cause a bigger shitstorm than Beast if the devs don't remove all those triggering mentions of non consenting breeding.
Yep, it will be a rough. As well it should be. That is a very sensitive subject and should be approached with caution and care. I'm not sure the current development team has the skills to handle it in a way that wont blow up in there face horribly.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;837748You've never trawled the old Palladium forums, or the pre-Pathfinder, Pathfinder forums. Those were hotbeds of creator worship, right down to the creepy.
The Pathfinder boards are much better moderated now, so it's actually a pretty decent place now for all things PFRPG.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that you'll always find hotbeds of creator worship, of varying degrees.
I suppose so. What really bothers me is that Holden in particular really doesn't seem to get that there is a lot of hostility toward them due to there antics and late delivery. The leak in particular really did help elevate some of that.
Now like many of you the leak isn't anything I particularly care about. Its not the kinda game I want. But at least its something. It exists and is a thing. When you have become increasingly convinced that the whole thing is vaporware or a scam then anything is comforting.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759103-Exalted-3-Has-anything-gone-right&p=19127225#post19127225
Read the link. It should tell you how far out into lala land Holden is. Also it makes me really think Holden has a bit of a Martyr complex.
GMS continues to get flak for Far West, yet some of the folks doing that are the same folks giving the Exalted crew a free pass. Go figure.
Wow...way to go Holden in blaming everyone else but yourself. Asshat.
I still find it hilarious that they had a second leak. So first, after the first leak, going something like "see, this is why we do not like playtesting...or even open-development" .... riding along on their high horse after that and BAM ... second leak...now it has to come from very close...inner circle. Emberassing for them...now they can't blame any outside-party anymore (aka unkown playtester XY).
And now Holden goes on and more or less telling us that the game will be worse because they couldn't do more testing? Yeah right! Fuck off!
Truly the unholy coupling that grew out of RPGnet's Exalted fandom and in due time led to the overlap between WW/OP developers and RPGnet moderation has birthed the monster that is the Exalted 3 clusterfuck.
A festering, cancerous mess of fail nested inside the hopes of Exalted fandom and covered in a thin veneer of developer infallibility that would make the Pope envious.
I'm not one for RGnet schadenfreude threads but this one is a fascinating trainwreck.
Quote from: The Butcher;837789Truly the unholy coupling that grew out of RPGnet's Exalted fandom and in due time led to the overlap between WW/OP developers and RPGnet moderation has birthed the monster that is the Exalted 3 clusterfuck.
A festering, cancerous mess of fail nested inside the hopes of Exalted fandom and covered in a thin veneer of developer infallibility that would make the Pope envious.
I'm not one for RGnet schadenfreude threads but this one is a fascinating trainwreck.
This isn't a trainwreck. This is an extinction level asteroid covered in tap dancing sharks.
It's Exalted, it's always got to be over the top.
Holy hell. Every time I think Holden couldn't possibly be a bigger asshat, he has to go and prove me wrong. And here I thought his behavior over Return of the Scarlet Empress was bad.
I'm actually okay with long combats if the session lasts 8+ hours. Unfortunately, I haven't gamed for that long in one go since college. If I tried to run Exalted 3E, the entire session would probably consist of a single combat.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837806This isn't a trainwreck. This is an extinction level asteroid covered in tap dancing sharks.
It's Exalted, it's always got to be over the top.
And we're stuck watching as it comes crashing on our faces...
You know something, I really don't get where the developers are coming from with the ultra-secrecy at all. If you want a quality product to come out of the process, the more open the playtesting, the more people get to see things, kick them and suggest improvements, the better the game will be.
I say this as a developer myself (on the M2TW mod, Europa Barbarorum II), I've found playtest feedback invaluable. The team there didn't quite have a secrecy mindset, but more a problem with consistent communication. And some people who didn't want things to be public until they were complete, which I think defeats the purpose of the whole development process.
I'd rather release something half-done, plastered with advisory warnings and a request that people try it and give their feedback, than have radio silence until suddenly you have another complete product to drop. Which may then need rapid patching to fix something that the small testing circle didn't spot.
It does seem to be a common thing though, people wanting to keep it to themselves. I'd rather the knowledge be out there so we can use it to manage expectations, instead of having wild rumours blowing about because there's no hard facts for anyone to sink their teeth into.
Plus, ultimately, I'm not afraid of being told I'm wrong, or re-doing something if a better way emerges.
Quote from: Kiero;837856You know something, I really don't get where the developers are coming from with the ultra-secrecy at all. If you want a quality product to come out of the process, the more open the playtesting, the more people get to see things, kick them and suggest improvements, the better the game will be.
I say this as a developer myself (on the M2TW mod, Europa Barbarorum II), I've found playtest feedback invaluable. The team there didn't quite have a secrecy mindset, but more a problem with consistent communication. And some people who didn't want things to be public until they were complete, which I think defeats the purpose of the whole development process.
I'd rather release something half-done, plastered with advisory warnings and a request that people try it and give their feedback, than have radio silence until suddenly you have another complete product to drop. Which may then need rapid patching to fix something that the small testing circle didn't spot.
It does seem to be a common thing though, people wanting to keep it to themselves. I'd rather the knowledge be out there so we can use it to manage expectations, instead of having wild rumours blowing about because there's no hard facts for anyone to sink their teeth into.
Plus, ultimately, I'm not afraid of being told I'm wrong, or re-doing something if a better way emerges.
I think its the later part of this that is the most important. They don't want negative feed back. They don't want to be told that something isn't working. They want praise and mild commentary. The problem is that the best work doesn't result from that. You need someone to be vicious to get the best results.
Then you take those vicious comments and see what you want to do with them. Do you need to take a different tactic, do you try a different approach, do you restart from scratch, or do you decide that you like what your doing and keep on with it.
I learned the benefit of vicious criticism in grad school. I had papers that came back and I swear to you I almost cried over them. But after the emotional reaction I thought about it and decided to take what was good and use it. Sometimes I ignored criticisms and sometimes I didn't. Both ways worked sometimes and didn't others.
Being a writer isn't fucking easy. Its a little soul crushing. But if you want make the best result you do it.
The Developers don't want to make the best game possible. They want to make the game that suits them. They want the game to reflect their desires and their desires alone. Screw people who disagree with them. Screw people who want something different. Your getting what the developers give you and you will like it, because we know better. Seems to be there attitude. That isn't a good developer attitude that's a bitchy fan boy attitude.
Maybe I'm just bitter.
Quote from: The Butcher;837789A festering, cancerous mess of fail
I'm gonna use that as a character description the next time I have to random roll up a PC for our DCC game.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;837667Here's the thing though. The "Rule of Cool" needs, like everything else in a game, to be consistent, it also needs to be defined well enough to be used, rather than have it be a hand-wave. The problem with the Story Teller system (or however they want to spell it this week) is that it's not even much of a system in that regard, relying primarily on fudging or the GM's good will. And as I'm primarily a GM, I don't want my players to come to me with 'Mother May I?' It insults them, whether they know it or not.
They've made their characters to model a certain thing, it should allow them TO be that 'thing'.
Of course that's just my opinion.
In other words, to qualify for The Rule of Cool, a thing should actually BE cool.
jg
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;837860The Developers don't want to make the best game possible. They want to make the game that suits them. They want the game to reflect their desires and their desires alone. Screw people who disagree with them. Screw people who want something different. Your getting what the developers give you and you will like it, because we know better. Seems to be there attitude. That isn't a good developer attitude that's a bitchy fan boy attitude.
Maybe I'm just bitter.
Your not bitter. You just saw the light and man does the light show the truth. Not always the thing you want to know, but the light always shine the truth. If it wasn't for all those kickstarters and rabid fan base Exalted would had naturally failed due to its own massive amount of bullshit.
Seriously look at Scion 2.0 and the new edition of Trinity they are making. You can see the difference in what they are doing at their own game. You roll attribute + skill and try to get more successes in difficulty. For scale the more powerful you are the lower the number you need to get in getting a success from that die. The only thing a GM needs to do is adjust difficulty when the need arises. My only complaint is the energy pool system, but even that is streamlined and easy to understand.
The devs of Exalted 3.0 do not give a shit about good gaming, the gamers who play their game, and they certainly don't care about the setting that was given to them. If they did you wouldn't see this mess. Sadly for you is that your a hundred percent right about those devs.
If my gaming group held me at gunpoint and made me run Exalted, I'd just run it off FATE. Your Exalted type is an Aspect, stunting and charms allow you to inflict appropriate temporary Aspects on targets, badaboom job done let's go.
I cannot imagine anyone wanting the sort of game Exalted wants to be - high-powered pulp adventure with larger-than-life characters and amazing superpowers - being dissatisfied with a semicompetent FATE translation of the game, because that's the sort of thing which sits squarely within FATE's bailiwick. I also can't imagine them seriously deriving any enjoyment out of the clunky mass which is the Exalted system the 3rd edition promises to be, with its unreconstructed Storyteller basis and its morass of Charms, unless they're the sort of gamer who'd rather read long list of powers by themselves rather than actually play a game at the gaming table.
The Ex3 combat has been compared to D and D 4th edition combat and several of those that really like it have said they're fans of D and 4th edition. Maybe that's the target audience.
Quote from: Nexus;837954The Ex3 combat has been compared to D and D 4th edition combat and several of those that really like it have said they're fans of D and 4th edition. Maybe that's the target audience.
I liked D&D4 and the combats were long but relatively straight forward. Exatled 3 has long combats (I assume, I cant figure out how they could be fast) and isn't relatively straight forward.
The straight forward part is important.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;837956I liked D&D4 and the combats were long but relatively straight forward. Exatled 3 has long combats (I assume, I cant figure out how they could be fast) and isn't relatively straight forward.
The straight forward part is important.
Exactly, though D&D4e combats are long, at least they are well-designed and easy to understand. Using a grid helps a lot. I can't say I have the same faith in the design abilities of the Exalted team.
Isn't it kind of late in the day for the Exalted line to be coming out with its response to 4E? Aren't we a whole design cycle past that now?
Quote from: Warthur;837959Isn't it kind of late in the day for the Exalted line to be coming out with its response to 4E? Aren't we a whole design cycle past that now?
4th is retro now. They are going after the nostalgia market:)
Quote from: Warthur;837948If my gaming group held me at gunpoint and made me run Exalted, I'd just run it off FATE. Your Exalted type is an Aspect, stunting and charms allow you to inflict appropriate temporary Aspects on targets, badaboom job done let's go.
Thing is Exalted is fun once you get out of the shit systems. It is anime super heroes disguise as mythological demigods.
Though with your FATE suggestion I would use the 25 exalted skills as skills. Have a high concept, trouble, caste, and then some extra aspects for good measure. Now for scale I would make it this. Solars and abyssals get +6 over mortals. Celestrials such as the lunars and siderals get +4 over mere mortals. Finally terrestrials would get +2 over mere mortals. Simply because the world is not balance out in creation with some types of exalted being far more powerful than others.
Quote from: Warthur;837948If my gaming group held me at gunpoint and made me run Exalted, I'd just run it off FATE. Your Exalted type is an Aspect, stunting and charms allow you to inflict appropriate temporary Aspects on targets, badaboom job done let's go.
Very abstract games such as FATE and Heroquest do such a smooth, no-fuss job of handling "larger-than-life characters and amazing superpowers" that I am truly sorry I can't seem to get them to work for me.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;837956I liked D&D4 and the combats were long but relatively straight forward. Exatled 3 has long combats (I assume, I cant figure out how they could be fast) and isn't relatively straight forward.
The straight forward part is important.
Hm, that's true. I'm not familiar with DandD 4th though.
I love Holden's statement that putting out previews would be to much of a time sink. Which hasn't seemed to bother FFGs with their very open betas, or WotC for D&D 5th, or hell, OP as a whole.
What a bunch of crap.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;838023I love Holden's statement that putting out previews would be to much of a time sink. Which hasn't seemed to bother FFGs with their very open betas, or WotC for D&D 5th, or hell, OP as a whole.
What a bunch of crap.
Pretty early on I pressed Holden about the closed development. Ultimately it boiled down to him just not wanting to do it. He was pretty explicit and said something like "I just dont want to deal with it."
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;838025Pretty early on I pressed Holden about the closed development. Ultimately it boiled down to him just not wanting to do it. He was pretty explicit and said something like "I just dont want to deal with it."
I gotta wonder how he thinks keeping things under wraps is going to work out for 3e in the long run. Design by committee is a fucking terrible idea yeah, but a decade of failed promises, there's no reason to be secretive. Being open and honest with the consumers would have made things much easier on the project.
But they didn't and I've decided to go ahead and use Mutants and Masterminds to run my own personal vision of Exalted, so fuck it.
A decade? They've only been working on it for, what, 3 years?
"Only", he says...
I am surprised that it took so long given that it was a successful Kickstarter (whatever that meant). There was a comment at some point that someone said, "if you think that gave us an operating budget, you don't understand this business model." My only reply to that is, "I guess you're right, I don't." I can cut people some slack when you are a bunch of people doing this in your spare time after your day-job. But, when you raise a bunch of money* it should become a priority.
* I don't know how much, I haven't really looked into it. I may be missing something.
Quote from: Baron Opal;838178A decade? They've only been working on it for, what, 3 years?
"Only", he says...
I think it was referring to the entire life of the Exalted line not just 3rd Edition.
Quote from: Baron Opal;838178* I don't know how much, I haven't really looked into it. I may be missing something.
IIRC: Somewhere over 600 thousand.
It was $684,755. Nearly three-quarters of a million dollars were handed to these guys, and so far they've thoroughly managed to screw things up.
I'm sure that eventually there will be many happy fans, but there will also be hundreds of pissed off people who will never give these devs another dime. Considering how many books they (eventually) want to put out, that's a lot of lost sales based entirely on how poorly they've managed this Kickstarter and failed to communicate well.
Quote from: Brand55;838182It was $684,755. Nearly three-quarters of a million dollars were handed to these guys, and so far they've thoroughly managed to screw things up.
.
That is a lot of money for an RPG. Smaller companies like ours make games for a fraction of that. What I find interesting is if a typical company invested half a million dollars into a game book, it is doubtful they would make the money back.
What i would find hilarious is if they released a shitty b&w softcover. :rotfl:
Having figuratively run-off with that kind of money, folks are gonna be pissed if it isn't tip-top of the range.
Quote from: Brand55;838182It was $684,755. Nearly three-quarters of a million dollars were handed to these guys, and so far they've thoroughly managed to screw things up.
Damn and that was just for the Bells and whistles edition and some stretch goals.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;838023What a bunch of crap.
I went through and read every thread related to the KS on rpg.net...pretty obvious the Exalted dev team has no idea wtf they got themselves into. And, instead of admitting that, they keep their cards REALLY close, lashing out at anyone who requests a shred of information. When you get that much money to produce a fucking book, and you literally tell people who funded you they're being unreasonable to expect any sort of legitimate update, that's when you've entered the realm of caricature stupidity.
I'm 99% sure that if the closed playtest leak was met with nothing but positive comments, they wouldn't have cared. Instead, a bunch of fans who care deeply about the product voiced their displeasure with how the game was shaping up, and of course the devs decided they were under personal attack. If you cannot separate professional from personal life, you have zero business doing anything that pays. Legit criticism = good product. Telling people who gave you a ton of money to essentially fuck off says a lot about their mentality...
So, anyway, I feel sorry for the people who funded the project, and actually pity the devs. They're simply delusional and are slowly but surely destroying their own careers and reputations because they refuse to acknowledge they might have fucked up.
Quote from: One Horse Town;838186What i would find hilarious is if they released a shitty b&w softcover. :rotfl:
Having figuratively run-off with that kind of money, folks are gonna be pissed if it isn't tip-top of the range.
From everything that's transpired, seems like they might just do POD at Drivethru and call it a day. "Due to the poisonous nature this project has ventured into, we no longer feel that we're able to produce what was promised." And then, blame the leak and the assholes on the internet.
Yep.
I don't get how after all the teasing and non information that kept bandying about while distributing things to dozens of strangers across the anonymous internet they thought there wasn't going to be leak of some kind. I'm not saying its was right for someone to violate their agreement but its like walking through a bad area at 3 in the morning with Fifties hanging out of the pockets of your mink coat then being shocked, shocked I tell you that get robbed. Its seems very naive.
Quote from: Nexus;838193I don't get how after all the teasing and non information that kept bandying about while distributing things to dozens of strangers across the anonymous internet they thought there wasn't going to be leak of some kind. I'm not saying its was right for someone to violate their agreement but its like walking through a bad area at 3 in the morning with Fifties hanging out of the pockets of your mink coat then being shocked, shocked I tell you that get robbed. Its seems very naive.
Victim blaming...stop triggering me.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;838185That is a lot of money for an RPG. Smaller companies like ours make games for a fraction of that. What I find interesting is if a typical company invested half a million dollars into a game book, it is doubtful they would make the money back.
Shit I don't think Sine Nomine gets that kind of cash in kickstarter and he makes good quality books. Given black and white colors, but still high quality books.
I know some of you are sick and tired of me saying Sine Nomine, but there is a reason I keep bringing him up. First off none of his kickstarters had failed. Secondly he always let us see demos so we know what is going with his game. Finally he doesn't act like Holden who is being a spoiled cry baby right now. Seriously you can't find a more perfect contrast and the sad part is Sine Nomine is only one man. He is literally shaming these guys and he is not even in his intentions which should make the sting feel more painful.
Sine Nomine had I think four kickstarters and they all came in on time and match up with expectations with his customers. None of his kickstarters reach up to three quarters of the million dollars. Sine Nomine works alone.
The Exalted devs have Onyx Path a full fledge company to support them. Had three quarters of a million dollars from kickstarter. They are also working as a team so work load gets spread around. Their kickstarter campaign is a fucking joke and they had not release a damn thing since it started years ago.
I am just saying you can't find a better contrast than that.
If Kevin Crawford had made Exalted 3, though, there wouldn't have even been a Kickstarter until the game was done and he just needed art. That's the difference. OPP came begging for cash when the game was little more than a dream in their collective noggins.
I knew there was a problem early on when they missed the deadline they'd set to start the Kickstarter, for crying out loud. The delays started before anyone even had a chance to pledge. The first announcement I ever saw said the Ex3 KS was coming in December 2012 but it didn't actually start until May of the following year.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;838185That is a lot of money for an RPG. Smaller companies like ours make games for a fraction of that. What I find interesting is if a typical company invested half a million dollars into a game book, it is doubtful they would make the money back.
Oh, yes. I've backed a number of Kickstarters and all so far have come in on time or with only minor delays. The only one I expect will be significantly delayed will be Paranoia, but I suspected that going in so I'm not really upset about it.
But even the biggest companies I've backed like Pinnacle only have KS campaigns that pull in $70,000 or so. They usually only get that much because of extras that people buy: miniatures, posters, cards, dice, etc. The price of the extra goodies makes up a good portion of the money pledged toward the game. With Exalted, though, they didn't have extra widgets like that. Nearly all the money was geared toward a 'deluxe' version of the core book just for backers.
Quote from: Brand55;838182It was $684,755. Nearly three-quarters of a million dollars were handed to these guys, and so far they've thoroughly managed to screw things up.
What...?
Gross Receipts: $684,755
Kickstarter fees (8%): -$47,932
Remaining: $636,823
1 year dedicated salary: -$75,000
Big project; 2 people: (x2)
Remaining: $486,823
Instant price quote from a random vanity press, 30 seconds of search effort:
General Information
Number of pages: 400
Double Sided or Single Sided: Double Sided
Finished Size: 8.5" x 11"
Bindery Style: Case Bound - hard cover
Soft Cover Options
Outside Cover Color: Not Applicable
Inside Cover Color: Not Applicable
Lamination: Not Applicable
Cover Stock: Not Applicable
Inside Pages
Inside Text Color: Color
Inside Text Stock: Satin Text 70#
Total
Quantity: 25,000 units
Total: -$224,170
Remaining: $262,653
Random quote from UPS Shipping, 5 minutes of effort.
Domestic, Ground:
2 lbs. dimensional weight
Avg $8 / unit (AK, HI significantly more, Exports would require being clever)
Shipping Costs: $8 x 25,000 units = -$200,000
Remaining: $62,653
Art Budget: $-30,000 (Half-ish salary noted above)
Remaining: $32,653
Legal fees: 80 hrs x $150 / hr = -$12,000
Remaining: $20,653
Costs of bennies not factored in, but there are a whole lot of negotiations, cost savings, and other reductions, as well as overruns, not figured in.
What is the problem here?
Quote from: One Horse Town;838186What i would find hilarious is if they released a shitty b&w softcover. :rotfl:
Having figuratively run-off with that kind of money, folks are gonna be pissed if it isn't tip-top of the range.
Folks are going to be pissed off no matter what. I really can't think of a worse project to Kickstart than Exalted 3. It's a game with a large, fundamentally broken system. A big chunk of the fans want to keep all the moving parts but somehow make them work. Another big chunk wants the whole system smoothed down. With a Kickstarter, you already took the money from both these groups, so they feel you owe them what they want. There is no road to a happy ending. Without a Kickstarter, you still get a lot of fan rage whatever you release, but at least the people pissed at you don't have to pay you.
It's even worse than Kickstarting a new edition of D&D. That has serious factionalism going on its fan base, but at least all the editions are functional in a way that Exalted has never been, regardless of whether those editions meet your personal taste.
Personally, my rule on Kickstarters is that I only back them if I get some kind of rough draft immediately. I'm fine with it still being a work in progress, but if they don't even have that, they are not ready to collect money. I've never waited more than a year on delivery of anything.
There was no way the devs could please everyone with the system for that simple fact. Some people want a billion Charms, others like me want something that's much simpler and more GM-friendly. It's simply impossible to reconcile those two viewpoints. So there was always going to be upset people, and I think that was understood from the outset. It's one of the reasons I refused to back the KS; I knew that with the people who were making the game, there was no way I'd get the simpler Exalted I wanted.
What's got so many more upset is the silence and the way OPP has treated their backers. They're going to have something like 900 total Charms and abilities just in the core book. There's no reason they couldn't have been doing a preview showing one of those every week or two. Put up an update one week showing a Charm, then a progress update the next week or a map or something, then another Charm or something else related to the mechanics. Updates seriously don't take that long to put together, especially if the meat of them comes from work that's already been done by the developers for the game. The fact that OPP was too lazy to do even that much is understandably upsetting to a lot of people.
And while I agree that it would be hilarious if it turned out the deluxe edition was a black & white softcover, there's no way it'll happen. Exalted exemplifies the 'style over substance' approach to game design. The engine is utter crap, but the team is going to make certain the finished machine is really shiny.
Did I miss something, there was a second leak?
Quote from: Iron_Rain;838259Did I miss something, there was a second leak?
Yeah, a few months ago. The story had changed from it being an essentially completely version except for art and lay out to being an "obsolete" version that wasn't close to final.
Quote from: Baulderstone;838227Folks are going to be pissed off no matter what. I really can't think of a worse project to Kickstart than Exalted 3. It's a game with a large, fundamentally broken system. A big chunk of the fans want to keep all the moving parts but somehow make them work. Another big chunk wants the whole system smoothed down.
And apparently, despite almost total lock down on information the idea that Ex3 was going to be, well, what it is was so blindly obvious from the very beginning that to have even hoped for something different was incredibly stupid.
Just as an aside, anyone thinking that a full-time dev on a project like this is getting $75k a year is probably out by an order of magnitude. A few years back when FFG were looking for a new head of line for WFRP v3, they were offering the equivalent of £14k a year - about $22k...
Quote from: One Horse Town;838338Just as an aside, anyone thinking that a full-time dev on a project like this is getting $75k a year is probably out by an order of magnitude. A few years back when FFG were looking for a new head of line for WFRP v3, they were offering the equivalent of £14k a year - about $22k...
Yeah. I doubt even with the SE books being printed the entire thing costs more than 200k, and that being generous.
Quote from: One Horse Town;838338Just as an aside, anyone thinking that a full-time dev on a project like this is getting $75k a year is probably out by an order of magnitude. A few years back when FFG were looking for a new head of line for WFRP v3, they were offering the equivalent of £14k a year - about $22k...
Yeah I got to agree with that. As little as the industry makes I would be shock if they were paid that much money. If they were paid that much money, then I can see why people are loyal to Onyx Path.
Quote from: Kiero;837623I saw that and sighed. They're obviously not interested in any sort of rigorous analysis of all the cruft they're generating. Rule of Cool is all that matters, it seems.
Well, I don't know what would stop Jon from posting an analysis on a blog and sending the links to people. I can easily put it in my signature:).
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837745Just wait till the book drops. Then we will really see the knives come out.
Hell, Lunars alone will cause a bigger shitstorm than Beast if the devs don't remove all those triggering mentions of non consenting breeding.
I hope there wouldn't be a storm over Lunars. I really like them:).
Quote from: Anglachel;837769It will be interesting to see how long it will take for the majority of Ex3e gamers to realize that this new version is as slow and tedious in play as the two earlier editions were. Because the fancy wears off real fast in play (especially with that oh so inventive "new" pacing for combat).
And then all the lamenting will begin again. But this time, i will have no pitty for them whatsoever. Maybe if you fanboy-fucks would have stopped "protecting" your Devs, they would have finally seen that change is needed. But as long as you support them to the bitter end....no wonder nothing is changing.
Well, if speed of resolution was your problem, Ex3 isn't for you.
OTOH, the devs never ever hinted the game would be fast. Maybe just faster, but faster than Ex2 is a really low bar to clear;).
Quote from: Warthur;837948If my gaming group held me at gunpoint and made me run Exalted, I'd just run it off FATE. Your Exalted type is an Aspect, stunting and charms allow you to inflict appropriate temporary Aspects on targets, badaboom job done let's go.
I cannot imagine anyone wanting the sort of game Exalted wants to be - high-powered pulp adventure with larger-than-life characters and amazing superpowers - being dissatisfied with a semicompetent FATE translation of the game, because that's the sort of thing which sits squarely within FATE's bailiwick. I also can't imagine them seriously deriving any enjoyment out of the clunky mass which is the Exalted system the 3rd edition promises to be, with its unreconstructed Storyteller basis and its morass of Charms, unless they're the sort of gamer who'd rather read long list of powers by themselves rather than actually play a game at the gaming table.
No surprise there, FATE was created for such games:D! IIRC, it was inspired by Zelazny's Lord of Light universe.
Quote from: The Butcher;837972Very abstract games such as FATE and Heroquest do such a smooth, no-fuss job of handling "larger-than-life characters and amazing superpowers" that I am truly sorry I can't seem to get them to work for me.
You're not alone. Sometimes they work for me, but when they don't work for me, either, they really don't work. Hence me preferring to have different options.
It just sucks if my mood changes before a scheduled Fate session.
Quote from: Nexus;838193I don't get how after all the teasing and non information that kept bandying about while distributing things to dozens of strangers across the anonymous internet they thought there wasn't going to be leak of some kind. I'm not saying its was right for someone to violate their agreement but its like walking through a bad area at 3 in the morning with Fifties hanging out of the pockets of your mink coat then being shocked, shocked I tell you that get robbed. Its seems very naive.
Who says they weren't counting on a leak?
Quote from: AsenRG;838363Who says they weren't counting on a leak?
Mostly them but some have wondered. I think that might be a bit too into tin foil hat territory but it is a viable possibility.
Quote from: Nexus;838381Mostly them but some have wondered. I think that might be a bit too into tin foil hat territory but it is a viable possibility.
Speculating who exactly and how might have been counting on a leak is tin foil hat territory, I agree. But assuming that someone
might have grown unhappy with the stance they adopted from the start about open playtests isn't out of bounds, and the leak might then be an attempt to rectify that:).
After all, they might have been unwilling to admit having been wrong from the start, and the reasons for that might range from personal to professional;).
This was an amusing infraction. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759830-Infraction-for-Lord-Pomposity-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) I'm not seeing the "personal attack" The poster just seems to be listing things that happened. If that's a personal attack how can you have a thread about "Worst Practices in RPGs" at all? It seems like other posts on the thread. He doesn't really name names.
Quote from: Nexus;838477This was an amusing infraction. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759830-Infraction-for-Lord-Pomposity-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) I'm not seeing the "personal attack" The poster just seems to be listing things that happened. If that's a personal attack how can you have a thread about "Worst Practices in RPGs" at all? It seems like other posts on the thread. He doesn't really name names.
No kidding. I went over to RPGnet to post a Mage: the Awakening thing and when I saw that thread on the front page of TRO I thought, "that'll work out just fine." :rotfl:
Quote from: Nexus;838477This was an amusing infraction. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759830-Infraction-for-Lord-Pomposity-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) I'm not seeing the "personal attack" The poster just seems to be listing things that happened. If that's a personal attack how can you have a thread about "Worst Practices in RPGs" at all? It seems like other posts on the thread. He doesn't really name names.
It's even funnier as one of the comments is:
QuoteA year and a half after you were going to ship the book, banning everyone who complains about the delays from your forums, and posting a lengthy rant about your toxic fanbase to the front page of your company website.
I find it funny for two reasons. The obvious one is the part about them banning people that criticize them.
The other part is the "toxic fanbase" comment. Lord Pomposity gave them a perfectly good opening to ban him for a less controversial group attack on the fans of Exalted. Yet, they still went with a ban that is all about them.
And, of course, the three days is combined with the thread ban, as they prefer shutting people up forever now, even after the infraction period. This thread isn't even an Exalted specific thread.
Then again, when the thread title popped up in the forum, Exalted was the first thing that came to mind.
Wow, that is a fucking travesty. I mean with that attitude they'd have to ban all posters in that thread.
The bias on rpg.net has really reached untolerable levels. The OPP-Devs-who-are-also-Mods are sacrosanct. They on the other hand can say what they want...or have you ever seen a warning against them for their borderline offensive behaviour towards several posters?
Quote from: Nexus;838477This was an amusing infraction. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759830-Infraction-for-Lord-Pomposity-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) I'm not seeing the "personal attack" The poster just seems to be listing things that happened. If that's a personal attack how can you have a thread about "Worst Practices in RPGs" at all? It seems like other posts on the thread. He doesn't really name names.
"After collecting over 500k from the KS" kinda points in one direction. Sure, I've been in other KS campaigns that reached that point, too, like the Fate Core one:).
None of them would be accurately described by this post, though;).
Quote from: AsenRG;838543"After collecting over 500k from the KS" kinda points in one direction. Sure, I've been in other KS campaigns that reached that point, too, like the Fate Core one:).
None of them would be accurately described by this post, though;).
Sure it does. But so do the other posts in the thread. All those practices had to be committed by someone and its pretty clear where allot of them are coming from. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to track down the perpetrators. His post was not unique but it was the only one sanctioned. Its not like he said "And BTW, Holden and Morke suck donkey balls" or the Exalted affair is so widely known in the gaming the community that is common knowledge. Apparently a few people on RPG.net didn't even know. Its literally front page material there.
Quote from: One Horse Town;838338Just as an aside, anyone thinking that a full-time dev on a project like this is getting $75k a year is probably out by an order of magnitude. A few years back when FFG were looking for a new head of line for WFRP v3, they were offering the equivalent of £14k a year - about $22k...
Well, yeah. But, shit, if it was me that's what I would pay myself after I took a year off from my day job to complete the massive project that just got bankrolled by a huge amount.
I don't want to minimize the effort, here. I would certainly expect it to be a massive job. But, damn, that's a lot of money upfront. And after you arraigned to pay yourself so life doesn't distract you, you get the job done.
Quote from: Baron Opal;838178A decade? They've only been working on it for, what, 3 years?
I meant the entire run of Exalted in general, not 3e. Still, 3 years is an unreasonable amount of time to keep everyone in the dark.
Quote from: Nexus;838477This was an amusing infraction. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759830-Infraction-for-Lord-Pomposity-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) I'm not seeing the "personal attack" The poster just seems to be listing things that happened. If that's a personal attack how can you have a thread about "Worst Practices in RPGs" at all? It seems like other posts on the thread. He doesn't really name names.
Jeez, is this what passes as a personal attack on rpg.net these days?
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;838593Jeez, is this what passes as a personal attack on rpg.net these days?
I decided to quit even lurking there before they decided that articles and prepositions were bourgeois relics of patriarchal power imbalance.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;838596I decided to quit even lurking there before they decided that articles and prepositions were bourgeois relics of patriarchal power imbalance.
JG
Um...what?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;838612Um...what?
Exactly. :D
Quote from: James Gillen;838945Exactly. :D
That was more of a "wtf is this guy referring to" moment.
Quote from: James Gillen;838596I decided to quit even lurking there before they decided that articles and prepositions were bourgeois relics of patriarchal power imbalance.
JG
I want to say you're joking, but you never can tell when it comes to rpg.net.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;838960That was more of a "wtf is this guy referring to" moment.
He's using hyperbole to say that moderation is becoming so strict they are likely to ban using words such as a, an, and the (articles) and at, after, as for and for (prepositions).
Quote from: Ryan L.;838987He's using hyperbole to say that moderation is becoming so strict they are likely to ban using words such as a, an, and the (articles) and at, after, as for and for (prepositions).
Doesn't one of them never use "he" or even male examples when they post?
Quote from: Nexus;839032Doesn't one of them never use "he" or even male examples when they post?
That would be one example. Now that's okay when it's your choice, but yeah, I was wondering when moderation would actually get to that point. ;)
jg
Quote from: James Gillen;839066That would be one example. Now that's okay when it's your choice, but yeah, I was wondering when moderation would actually get to that point. ;)
jg
Oh yeah, its fine by choice if a bit strange.
Haven'y noticed any of that, but I don't really pay that place much mind these days.
Jeebus, 110 pages of Exalted!
Or as they call it, Chapter One. :D
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;839313Jeebus, 110 pages of Exalted!
22 for me; I don't know how anyone can tolerate 10 posts per page. Makes navigating threads really annoying.
Letting Onyx Path writers become moderators for the site was probably the exact moment RPG.net became a lost cause. The egos of said writers, wrapped up in their own products and company as well as their politics has squeezed out any and all honest discussion.
It's like letting the developers of Capcom become official Forum Moderators at a videogame forum...Or letting the executives of Ford run a Forum for Car companies...
I ended up recieving my permanent ban because of these moderators and their personal politics, not for any real offensive behavior, but because I expressed an unpopulat political opinion...
God forbid you attack their company or the games they write now...
The sad thing is, our industry is so small already, RPG.net will chug right along due to inertia. These writers will get to keep their personal fifedom because we have little alternative.
It's still the largest forum to speak about RPG's not directly related to a game's official webpage.
I'm slightly bitter about being locked out of the "Tree House" so to speak, and having my appeal 7 months later rejected and told "Try again in 6 more months!" but as my fiancee tries to remind me, I really shouldn't care... and in my more rational moments, I realize I really shouldn't..
I lost respect for most of those writers (Not all) but most from seeing their behavior. I might even still like their work, but they're not the people I should really even want to hang out with, given their behavior.
Anyway, I'm rambling now, but I think my message is on point. It's a fool's endevour to insult Onyx Path based products on RPG.net.... Unless they do something which pisses off almost the entire base of the website ((Like Beast: The Primordial did)) and even then....the defenders of the game were allowed to be far more belligerant than those crictizing it.
I left after only one insane interaction with the mods. I got a warning for trolling and I replied explaining how they misunderstood that post and gave other examples of what I meant, but also apologizing for the poor wording. So I got a suspension for responding to moderator posts. When another poster asked what was going on they posted publicly that I was harassing the moderators by private message. They flat out lied in order to make someone questioning them stop. I never went back.
Incidentally it was in a thread related to an Onyxpath release.
I really really want what the last two posters said not to be true...because rpg.net was my first rpg-themed forum i knew and i loved that place...i spent many (many, many) an hour there...but unfortunately, it is true...and it becomes ever more intolerable. Nowadays the only thing that most of the threads over there do, is raise my blood-pressure because it is off the charts on the bullshit-o-meter.
Sad...really sad :(
Isn't there one admin left who is not an OPP staffer and/or SJW? Or is moderation of the moderators by the admins non-existant?
I know, waaaay off topic...sorry.
Quote from: Anglachel;839510Isn't there one admin left who is not an OPP staffer and/or SJW? Or is moderation of the moderators by the admins non-existant?
I don't think Darren McLennan is an OPP staffer or SJW - but unfortunately he's a power-tripper and an arsehole of the first degree.
Quote from: RPGPundit;839313Jeebus, 110 pages of Exalted!
What can I say? People love shitting on Exalted.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;839732What can I say? People love shitting on Exalted.
There's allot of passion and emotion invested in that game and that's going to lead a great deal of spite, bitterness and schadenfreude.
Never let it be said we only complain about old-school!
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;839732What can I say? People love shitting on Exalted.
Its only fair allot of Exalted fans and staff can't seem to stop shitting on D and D and its fans.
I owned 1e Exalted... always wanted to play it. Too bad it's written by the people that currently are trying to produce it. I won't support them at all.
Quote from: RPGPundit;840049Never let it be said we only complain about old-school!
Well when it comes to Exalted there is a lot to complain about. Especially the third edition that isn't even out yet and is years over due. I mean people paid good money and what did they get?
They have a corrupt site that bans those that question the devs because the devs are the moderators of said site. A shit ton of excuses, whines, and I blame you the customers rants from those devs. The only playable demos are leaks and those leaks look pretty bad. Constant silence and having no clue as to what is really going on. Devs who think they are the best thing since slice bread despite the fact we see people do far better work in kickstarter. Finally the growing sensation that you might as well play FATE to get your Exalted game.
So had anyone found a good form fillable character sheet yet? my group is strongly considering "Playing the leak"
I would just use one of the old sheets. It's mostly cosmetic things to pay attention to.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;847938I would just use one of the old sheets. It's mostly cosmetic things to pay attention to.
Most of us can do that, but there are a few players we are afraid are going to cling to 2E ways unless we can find something new. We found a sheet, but it is FULL of errors, so we are hunting for a better one and hoping someone has one.
So, in short, yes, I could do that, but by posting here I am hoping that someone has, or can easily make, one for 3E.
Quote from: Foxsable;847940Most of us can do that, but there are a few players we are afraid are going to cling to 2E ways unless we can find something new. We found a sheet, but it is FULL of errors, so we are hunting for a better one and hoping someone has one.
So, in short, yes, I could do that, but by posting here I am hoping that someone has, or can easily make, one for 3E.
Since I'm attempting to be less petty this week, I wish you luck. And I might check reddit. Those folks might have something.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;847943Since I'm attempting to be less petty this week, I wish you luck. And I might check reddit. Those folks might have something.
I appreciate your discretion :-) I'm new here.
Unfortunately, Reddit has banned leak discussion (as I am sure you guys are used to in various places). I made a post anyway, it got voted to oblivion. At this point, i may just attempt to figure out how one goes about making a form fillable character sheet of your own in... some Adobe product.
I am really wondering where all these freshly registered posters* that are oddly knowledgeable about the system are coming from. Its slowed down but they're still popping up.
*or that have been registered for awhile but have post counts in the single or double digits after being members for years.
@ Foxsable: So, have any luck?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;848590@ Foxsable: So, have any luck?
Not yet. I twittered MR. Gone but he ignored it. This is one of the only sites where people are even mentioning the leak, most likely playing it. I will post a link here if I find something accessible. Which is hard since every other site I can find bans discussion of any leaked material etc.
I have found this https://mega.co.nz/#!tMxlXS6D!IS5U-Mg1-IJG8QW7bkVjZisQfGsSE_tVySdjuM3zHdE which... well, it MOSTLY works. The 2nd dot of stamina doesn't work, the charms skip to the next line when you tab in the second to last field and annoying text bubbles pop up all over the place. Oh, and you can not remove the first dot in any category. I messaged the dude just today, no response yet.
Nexus: I actually googled the subject... this thread came right up, and I had to register to comment (makes sense)
A quick google came up with this Google Docs sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OnLm5Ep35IPuc5YTFf6Gkk14uiwLTWnWeF41Cj8wzbo/edit#gid=0). I think you are going to have to make your own or make do.
Quote from: Foxsable;848622Not yet. I twittered MR. Gone but he ignored it. This is one of the only sites where people are even mentioning the leak, most likely playing it. I will post a link here if I find something accessible. Which is hard since every other site I can find bans discussion of any leaked material etc.
I have found this https://mega.co.nz/#!tMxlXS6D!IS5U-Mg1-IJG8QW7bkVjZisQfGsSE_tVySdjuM3zHdE which... well, it MOSTLY works. The 2nd dot of stamina doesn't work, the charms skip to the next line when you tab in the second to last field and annoying text bubbles pop up all over the place. Oh, and you can not remove the first dot in any category. I messaged the dude just today, no response yet.
Nexus: I actually googled the subject... this thread came right up, and I had to register to comment (makes sense)
I don't believe anyone here is actually playing the Leak. We only discuss it, because it was the closest "beta" anyone had ever seen of what the finished product might look like.
Suffice to say, almost everyone here whose discussed it, thinks it's kinda crap.
Quote from: Foxsable;848622Nexus: I actually googled the subject... this thread came right up, and I had to register to comment (makes sense)
Sorry if I sounded accusatory.
The comment wasn't directed at you, Foxsable. I was muttering darkly about some things on another board. But you do bring up a much less conspiracy fueled possible answer which, despite my misgivings, I have to admit is a possibility. So thank you for that and again I apologize if it sounded like I was accusing or attacking you.
Quote from: Orphan81;848655I don't believe anyone here is actually playing the Leak. We only discuss it, because it was the closest "beta" anyone had ever seen of what the finished product might look like.
Suffice to say, almost everyone here whose discussed it, thinks it's kinda crap.
Being as objective as I can I think 3rd looks functional and fairly solid (but so did 2ed at first) but its driven by allot of assumptions and style choices I don't enjoy or agree with and they appear to be hardwired in that it might be better to just convert the entire thing to something else for me. Work I honestly want to avoid but trying to cram our game and preferences into this 3rd edition "round hole" might be more trouble and frustration than its worth.
Frankly its more the attitude displayed by the developers and fanbase that chaps my ass about 3rd edition than the game itself.
Foxsable: There is currently allot of discussion about 3rd edition including some people playing the leak on rpg.net if you're not familiar with it.
I tried rpg.net. That site is relatively hard to find anything on without strict search terms. I'm really just looking for a character sheet for now, but it seems like I may just have to use excel for now or that super flawed one I linked. Or that ugly google document. But whatever. Hell, we used to scratch AD&D stats on notepaper, right?
My group actually likes the leak, it seems pretty solid and balanced. So far. But so did 2nd, as you mentioned.
I guess we'll see.
Quote from: Foxsable;848783I tried rpg.net. That site is relatively hard to find anything on without strict search terms. I'm really just looking for a character sheet for now, but it seems like I may just have to use excel for now or that super flawed one I linked. Or that ugly google document. But whatever. Hell, we used to scratch AD&D stats on notepaper, right?
I don't think we've used an official character sheet for 20+ years. :)
QuoteMy group actually likes the leak, it seems pretty solid and balanced. So far. But so did 2nd, as you mentioned.
I guess we'll see.
Good luck! I'd love to hear about how it goes if you'd be interested in posting some accounts.
Quote from: Nexus;848571I am really wondering where all these freshly registered posters* that are oddly knowledgeable about the system are coming from. Its slowed down but they're still popping up.
*or that have been registered for awhile but have post counts in the single or double digits after being members for years.
Hey! Careful with that wide brush there. Some of us low number posters are mostly just lurkers.
And, in my case, a lurker that enjoyed earlier editions of Exalted enough that I paid for what is looking like something I'm really not going to be happy with sight unseen via kickstarter. Buyer beware and all that, I suppose.
Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;848791Hey! Careful with that wide brush there. Some of us low number posters are mostly just lurkers.
And, in my case, a lurker that enjoyed earlier editions of Exalted enough that I paid for what is looking like something I'm really not going to be happy with sight unseen via kickstarter. Buyer beware and all that, I suppose.
JIC: I'm talking about rpg.net.
Its not all of them but allot of them. The ones that seem to pop up when ever there's criticism of the system that's turning against the Devs and they're side needs more support. Usually posting aggressively, angrily and with a degree of snark that matches the Devs themselves. Often to vanish again. That just register that month, post a allot in one thread then vanish again.
There's other explanation but sometimes, yeah, it makes my sockpuppet sense tingle. Anecdotally, I've heard some stories about the mod setting up accounts for gags and to troll over there but I have no solid proof.
FWIW I am sympathetic to the people that bought into the KS and aren't liking what they see. That's got to be annoying. And being told how silly you were for expecting anything different is just salting the wound. I'm disappointed and frustrated but I didn't lose money of this.
Edit: Of course there's also the possibility there really is a huge Silent Majority that is out there rooting on the Devs.
Quote from: Nexus;848794JIC: I'm talking about rpg.net.
Its not all of them but allot of them. The ones that seem to pop up when ever there's criticism of the system that's turning against the Devs and they're side needs more support. Usually posting aggressively, angrily and with a degree of snark that matches the Devs themselves. Often to vanish again. That just register that month, post a allot in one thread then vanish again.
That and the search issue are substantial issues along with the "style" issue of PC groupthink run amok.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;848839That and the search issue are substantial issues along with the "style" issue of PC groupthink run amok.
JG
I'd put the increasingly brazen selective rule enforcement on the list too but come to think of it that's probably more accurately a symptom not a cause.
Quote from: Nexus;848916I'd put the increasingly brazen selective rule enforcement on the list too but come to think of it that's probably more accurately a symptom not a cause.
No, I'm saying that even if one agrees with the groupthink, it's questionable whether the site is actually any good for looking up RPG information, rules or anything substantial. That was one of the reasons I left.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;848839That and the search issue are substantial issues along with the "style" issue of PC groupthink run amok.
JG
They restored the Search function about a year ago.
But the number of permanent bans under the criterion of "not a good fit for the site" is getting worrisome. It has given me a user title for the handful of times I post there, though ... :)
Quote from: James Gillen;849067No, I'm saying that even if one agrees with the groupthink, it's questionable whether the site is actually any good for looking up RPG information, rules or anything substantial. That was one of the reasons I left.
JG
Oh I was just talking problems at rpg.net in general.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;849072But the number of permanent bans under the criterion of "not a good fit for the site" is getting worrisome. It has given me a user title for the handful of times I post there, though ... :)
Yep, it seems they can't even be bothered to find a justification under their capriciously applied, deliberately opaque rules any more. Now it's simply "your face doesn't fit" and you're gone.
The only reason I haven't been back and told them to go fuck themselves is because I don't want to give them the satisfaction of having something to ban me for.
The rules as I am understanding them really lay out a fundamentally different approach to the game between my group and who the designers seem to be aiming for. It really sounds and feels like busy work and allot of rolls for things that would largely be assumed as being "engaged with the setting" is measured in dice rolls made per session.
Sure, making items for benefit or bribes or whatever is great but shouldn't you be doing anyway as crafting driven character? Its like Stunts. its something you should be doing because of roleplaying and inspiration not because its required or you can't do something else. Martial arts aren't required to role play doing forms and katas, Lore specialist don't have put screen time into reading thick tomes or memorization exercises, etc. The micromanagement and exp juggling just don't strike me as very fun.
The essential difference seems to come down to wanting mechanics to drive the players' actions and involvement, the narrative for lack of a better word and wanted mechanics that support adjudication of their actions and involvement, again the narrative but don't interfere or steer it.
The Great Curse is similar in this regard. Sometimes I feel completely alienated from the mindset of modern role playing games.
Anectdote - Here in NYC, I was at a friend's nerd party. We're hanging out playing card games and such, and I hear that one of the party attendees is in one of the OP EX 3 playtest groups. I decide to have a little fun. This is around a week after New Years.
"$20 says that I will not have my backers copy of Ex 3 in my hands by 12 midnight, December 31st, 2015. It has to be *in my hands physically*." Of course, said playtester swore up and down that this would indeed be the case.
He and I shook hands. I wore a big shit eating grin. This playtester (who was not the friend who was throwing the party) swore up and down that the backer copies would be out by Gencon 2015. HEE HEE HEE HAH HAH HAH HOO HO HO.
See, if I am right, I get my god damned gaming book. If I am wrong, I get $20. A win win!
Updates as things progress.
I fully expect to be $20 richer on 1/1/2016.
Quote from: Kiero;849099Yep, it seems they can't even be bothered to find a justification under their capriciously applied, deliberately opaque rules any more. Now it's simply "your face doesn't fit" and you're gone.
The only reason I haven't been back and told them to go fuck themselves is because I don't want to give them the satisfaction of having something to ban me for.
Saying it here is enough. Cross forum drama and all that jazz.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;849741Saying it here is enough. Cross forum drama and all that jazz.
No doubt some toady will report back, looking either to curry favour, or simply to get me banned. I guess we'll see.
So I've been thinking of Exalted 3 again. I think its time to say that the whole thing was a failure. There maybe a game published at some point. It may even be a good game (I doubt it thought) but the kickstarter/project has failed.
The developers utterly bungled the games PR and relationship with the backers. The companies hands off attitude really has shown the weakness of Onyx Path as a game development company. Admittedly they seem to be changing course on this to a degree, so good for them. No amount of good game will undo the bad press that the lateness, poor communication, and general jackassery from the developers has done to the line.
Even if a game is delivered (and frankly I'm not sure it will be anymore) it will be doa. Only the most hardcore of fans will follow the line after this.
That's before we even get into discussion of the mechanics.
I wonder what the contractual obligations are, after the products listed under their license are delivered? What would it take for Rich Thomas to say, "enough of this shit" and hand it off to someone other team?
EDIT: It is kind of liberating to be banned.
Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;849883I wonder what the contractual obligations are, after the products listed under their license are delivered? What would it take for Rich Thomas to say, "enough of this shit" and hand it off to someone other team?
EDIT: It is kind of liberating to be banned.
I like to pop in to their infraction forum once a week or so, and see how many people have been banned, warned, thread banned and the like. It's fascinating really. I can't think of any similar hobby forum that takes pride in giving out that many infractions in such a short period of time. It seems there's at least one permaban going a week now.
As for Exalted, 1e kinda remains the best iteration, which is really saying something. But I've got my own method using Mutants and Masterminds now.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;849842So I've been thinking of Exalted 3 again. I think its time to say that the whole thing was a failure. There maybe a game published at some point. It may even be a good game (I doubt it thought) but the kickstarter/project has failed.
The developers utterly bungled the games PR and relationship with the backers. The companies hands off attitude really has shown the weakness of Onyx Path as a game development company. Admittedly they seem to be changing course on this to a degree, so good for them. No amount of good game will undo the bad press that the lateness, poor communication, and general jackassery from the developers has done to the line.
Even if a game is delivered (and frankly I'm not sure it will be anymore) it will be doa. Only the most hardcore of fans will follow the line after this.
That's before we even get into discussion of the mechanics.
I am really curious what the reaction to full and final mechanics will be. There are quite a few hardcore fans that are going to accept anything and praise its genius and the rules were written to appeal to certain tastes but still I wonder how many are going to be disappointed. "I didn't read the leak" has practically become a loyalty oath and supposedly that leak wasn't "anywhere close" to the final product. So we'll see.
I'm a little surprised how truly hardcore fans their seem to be after how this has been handled but Exalted has always generated allot of passion.
Quote from: Orphan81;849926I like to pop in to their infraction forum once a week or so, and see how many people have been banned, warned, thread banned and the like. It's fascinating really. I can't think of any similar hobby forum that takes pride in giving out that many infractions in such a short period of time. It seems there's at least one permaban going a week now.
Its like they have a quota system like traffic cops and tickets. It really goes up when someone starts a thread that's the equivalent of Speed Trap.
Quote from: Nexus;849938Its like they have a quota system like traffic cops and tickets. It really goes up when someone starts a thread that's the equivalent of Speed Trap.
I think it's more that they're pushing harder and harder for conformity with the site's "culture" (read: ideology) and are become more and more willing to exclude those who don't fit in. The general tone in the past year or so has really become 'we are who we are, and if you don't like it, we don't want you anyway'. Not necessarily a
bad thing for a community (abstracting from the nature of the ideology itself, which in TBP's case ranges from well-intentioned through wrongheaded to Hellish), although somewhat disruptive for one that's been around for 15 years and has only now started to adopt party discipline ...
Quote from: Nexus;849937I am really curious what the reaction to full and final mechanics will be. There are quite a few hardcore fans that are going to accept anything and praise its genius and the rules were written to appeal to certain tastes but still I wonder how many are going to be disappointed. "I didn't read the leak" has practically become a loyalty oath and supposedly that leak wasn't "anywhere close" to the final product. So we'll see.
I'm a little surprised how truly hardcore fans their seem to be after how this has been handled but Exalted has always generated allot of passion.
It will be interesting to see how it goes over when and if it is ever released. Honestly, at this stage, I'm not entirely sure there will ever be a release. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the project is utterly abandoned by the developers. Or if it is put on indefinite hold.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;849944It will be interesting to see how it goes over when and if it is ever released. Honestly, at this stage, I'm not entirely sure there will ever be a release. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the project is utterly abandoned by the developers. Or if it is put on indefinite hold.
Didn't the latest update say it's in Layout now? With that art sample and everything? I thought I read it would be ready in pdf in why...just a few short months!
Quote from: Nexus;849938Its like they have a quota system like traffic cops and tickets. It really goes up when someone starts a thread that's the equivalent of Speed Trap.
I particularly liked the thread ban for burnout02 in the Gamergate SPJ bomb scare thread.
I guess i now have a good idea why the new mechanics suck. For the last 2-3 months i have read lots of different rpg-games that fall into very different categories, designwise and crunchwise.
Exalted's problem (3e's but i guess also the older iterations) is that it's neither here nor there, mechanics-wise.
What do i mean:
On the one hand, It somehow wants to be a game with lots of stuff, fiddly-bits...it wants fine detail and different "things" for every part. So kind of high crunch. Problem 1) : they have no designers on board that can handle something like that. Most probably because none of them has any grip on probabilities and mathematics. This will inevitably lead to another game with extreme "optimal build" and "Oh, i broke the game by accident" stuff.
If they wanted something like high crunch with a lot of modification-screws they should have hired some of the Hero System or GURPS pros to do such a game. They have proven that they can provide high crunch stuff that has at least some kind of internal consistency and mathematical strength.
On the other hand, they want it also to be about storytelling and "handwavium" (they're quite proud of that). Again, they have no designers that seem to be able to really "get that into mechanics cleanly". So you have some half-assed ideas and "stuff" that is kind-of-narrative but with rules (Nexus had some nice descriptors for that in one of his last posts).
Again, if they wanted something like this, they should have hired some of the cracks from games like Heroquest or Other Worlds. Games that can elegantly model narrative play via relatively simple mechanics but that make the games still feel quite mythical and powerful.
So in short - they have two goals for Exalted 3e...and they fail spectacularly at implementing both of them. In effect - the team is just very bad at game-design.
From now on, i guess it'd be appropriate to put Devs or developers into " " whenever you're talking about the folks that "design" Exalted.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;849950I particularly liked the thread ban for burnout02 in the Gamergate SPJ bomb scare thread.
I just don't get the insane levels of hostility the GG/Anti-GG/whatever thing generates.
Quote from: Nexus;849967I just don't get the insane levels of hostility the GG/Anti-GG/whatever thing generates.
Neither do I... I've got a local friend who's ranted at me about the GG folks and there's just no way to talk to him about it. As soon as I brought up that neither side has the high ground he announced his shock and dismay that I was a 'Gamergater'. It's a toxic subject.
Quote from: Nexus;849967I just don't get the insane levels of hostility the GG/Anti-GG/whatever thing generates.
The issue is that both sides are arguing two separate things. One is against GG because it's seen as another MRA/Rape Apologist mob. The other want something that they never will get, Video Game 'Journalist' accountability.
And because of the current political climate whenever you're dealing with women's 'issues' (some of which are warranted, Death Threats in any form, to anyone, is just bad form of the worst order), the whole GamerGate devolved into what another loud voice for the militants (of all sides.)
Well when you are friends with the news media you can say whatever lies and bullshit you want. So no wonder gamergate looks bad because the sheeple got fooled again. Seriously people when are you going to wake and see that all news media is as fuck up as Fox News.
Quote from: Snowman0147;850035Well when you are friends with the news media you can say whatever lies and bullshit you want. So no wonder gamergate looks bad because the sheeple got fooled again. Seriously people when are you going to wake and see that all news media is as fuck up as Fox News.
Like I said, not ever going to get what they want, simply because NO ONE is unbiased. NO ONE.
However, that is all I will say on this topic.
Other than Ex3 is a disappointment from what I'm hearing.
Quote from: Simlasa;849994Neither do I... I've got a local friend who's ranted at me about the GG folks and there's just no way to talk to him about it. As soon as I brought up that neither side has the high ground he announced his shock and dismay that I was a 'Gamergater'. It's a toxic subject.
That is what the anti-gamergate side is known for. It doesn't matter if your neutral, or hate both sides. If your not a anti, then you might as well be a gamergater in their world view. Did he cut you off yet?
Quote from: Simlasa;849994'Gamergater'. It's a toxic subject.
Indeed, and it's got nothing to do with this thread.
Quote from: Orphan81;849946Didn't the latest update say it's in Layout now? With that art sample and everything? I thought I read it would be ready in pdf in why...just a few short months!
It's supposedly been in lay out since February.
Quote from: Nexus;849937I am really curious what the reaction to full and final mechanics will be. There are quite a few hardcore fans that are going to accept anything and praise its genius and the rules were written to appeal to certain tastes but still I wonder how many are going to be disappointed. "I didn't read the leak" has practically become a loyalty oath and supposedly that leak wasn't "anywhere close" to the final product. So we'll see.
I'm a little surprised how truly hardcore fans their seem to be after how this has been handled but Exalted has always generated allot of passion.
It remains to be seen if the hardcore fans are enough to make a profitable game.
jg
Quote from: James Gillen;850224It remains to be seen if the hardcore fans are enough to make a profitable game.
jg
It's already profitable. We're talking about a game where the devs got suckers to pay hundreds of dollars (each) up front just to have a single Charm created for them or have their characters illustrated. Thousands of dollars went for things that would cost the developer next to nothing (or nothing at all, in the case of PDFs of old material). Unless a lot of hookers and blow were involved in the design process (which I'm not entirely ruling out), then Exalted 3e should be one of the most profitable games ever.
Quote from: Brand55;850243It's already profitable. We're talking about a game where the devs got suckers to pay hundreds of dollars (each) up front just to have a single Charm created for them or have their characters illustrated. Thousands of dollars went for things that would cost the developer next to nothing (or nothing at all, in the case of PDFs of old material). Unless a lot of hookers and blow were involved in the design process (which I'm not entirely ruling out), then Exalted 3e should be one of the most profitable games ever.
Yeah that is the biggest fuck you to the fans. It is not even a honest sale and frankly Onyx Path should be hated for this shit.
Quote from: Brand55;850243It's already profitable. We're talking about a game where the devs got suckers to pay hundreds of dollars (each) up front just to have a single Charm created for them or have their characters illustrated. Thousands of dollars went for things that would cost the developer next to nothing (or nothing at all, in the case of PDFs of old material). Unless a lot of hookers and blow were involved in the design process (which I'm not entirely ruling out), then Exalted 3e should be one of the most profitable games ever.
Yep. Some of the contributors put in four digits. Not even to fund a 3rd edition but for extras, a fancy version. Exalted is an incredible cash cow.
Quote from: Nexus;850249Yep. Some of the contributors put in four digits. Not even to fund a 3rd edition but for extras, a fancy version. Exalted is an incredible cash cow.
I was shocked when I first looked at the numbers. Not by the total pledged, though that was surprising enough. But when I saw that the average backer level was around $150 with hundreds of people going much higher than that, I could hardly believe it.
A lot of people are upset, yes. But there are a lot of other people that will rabidly gobble up anything, good or bad, OPP puts out with "Exalted" slapped on the cover.
Exalted is awesome...
No, really, Exalted, as a concept is fucking awesome. It's why it engenders such good will.
I remember going to Ryder's Hobby Shop with a friend, and looking over some new books. We had known Exalted was coming out, but thought it was going to be lame. Exalted was fresh on the shelf, and my buddy starts reading it while I'm browsing.
10 minutes in he tells me I MUST buy this book and run it for our group tomorrow. I spent all day and night reading as much of the book as I could, and did in fact run it that next day.
My group got tons of play out of 1st edition Exalted. I made up my own nations in the Hundred Kingdoms, let one player play a secret Abyssal disguised as a Dragon Blooded, had them work for lookshy as special forces agents...Ran a session that involved a "mass wedding" in Nexus complete with parades of one PC to everyone in his employ so they would be politically protected...
All with 1e, all with fond memories...
I'll say it again...Exalted is...fucking awesome...
But for some reason...2e just couldn't capture the same magic as 1e...and it seemed to get further away setting wise from what made 1e so fucking awesome...I had high hopes for 3e...but eh...everything I've seen of it just makes me sad...
But its why people pledged so much, it's why they were willing to donate. I was broke at the time so I couldn't...But I really wanted to...one of my gaming group pledged high enough to get the cloth map...Now though, I'm glad I didn't and my buddy just wants his fucking cloth map.
What made the first edition so much better than the second edition? I am curious about that because so many exalted players love the first edition, but hated the later editions.
Quote from: Snowman0147;850262What made the first edition so much better than the second edition? I am curious about that because so many exalted players love the first edition, but hated the later editions.
There's many reasons, and I'll try to go over some of them briefly.
First, let's talk mechanics...
Simply put, 1e is better mechanically than 2e. 2e attempted to "Fix" the problems of 1e and in the end, just made things worse. The Ink Monkeys coming on "fixed" 2e, but in the end this still made it a horrendous mess compared to 1e.
1e was a lot like typical white wolf. Combat wise, it played like you expected Storyteller to play..It wasn't overly complicated, it didn't have as much charm bloat, and the system didn't have all the fiddly bits that 2e did.
It was still the most complex whitewolf game released at the time, but when you compare it to 2e it seems streamlined and simple. Combat was fun. When the player's guide was released and introduced the "Power Combat" rules addition, it got even better.
There were still "Land Mines" in the system, Charms that could break the game in certain combinations, but ST's and Players could avoid those when they learned about them.
2e just made things way more complicated, it just added so many extra options that were unnecessary. You didn't need 3 different versions of "Excellency" for each charm...1 version worked perfectly, 3 versions just made more complicated ways to spend motes.
Then you get into the whole problem of DV... Defense Value in 2e was so easy to break, and so easy to reach the point where there literally was no point in trying to attack certain characters, because you would never get the successes needed to hit their DV.
1e still had rolled defenses. Even if you had a shit ton of dice, you could still roll poorly, and the attacker could roll well, there wasn't a futility to combat, or the need of a GM to either nerf the shit out of an enemy or overload them with so much accuracy they always had a chance of hitting the PC with the highest DV....which meant they would just obliterate a PC with a lower DV..
1e certainly has warts, but looking back now, I can honestly say 1e was overall a much more mechanically sound system, that was easier to run and easier for PC's to get into.
2e introduced things like "Join Battle" rolls, Battle Wheels, a glut of charms in the corebook, DV and Mental DV, and later on a scroll of errata that basically just rewrote the game from scratch...
Now lets get to style of 1e vs 2e...
Stylistically 1e was the perfect blend of Sword and Sorcery combined with Anime. One flavor did not over power the other. The art alone featured both beautiful Anime pieces as well as more traditional and greco-roman looking pieces..
The world itself had much more of a "Weird" 1930's fantasy vibe to go with the Anime as well. Conan fit right in with Cloud depending on where you were in the world. Old Ruins of a bygone age that were ripe for exploration, a desert capital city where trade was all that mattered....combined with Anime style Pirate Shenanigans in the far west, and an evil Empire that combined Final Fantasy style steam punk with Greco-Roman military discipline.
Furthermore, the world was far less "Crapsack" than 2e. Yes it was still an age of Sorrows, yes it was full of scum and villainy and darkness... but the Solar Exalted were a sign of HOPE.
The Unconquered Sun was shown as an entity that was GOOD. The Solars, while some of them were capable of evil (And even given examples were they were crazy, looking at you Lyta and your Giant Sun Laser sacrifices!) most Solars were unquestionably good, and dedicated to making the world a better place. You had to be exceptional, a Hero to become a Solar, and the Sun often talked to those he Exalted, telling them to go forth and make the world righteous in their sight.
The Solars were not "Lawgivers" they were Heroes, whether greco-roman or modern in their inclinations.
Magitech was also rare, to the point where the Escaflowne Mecha were completely optional. There were no "Cathedral Factories" and the like.
Exalted 1e also had a far more "Mythical" aspect to it. The Sun was not a Giant Warmachine that could fire lasers...It was the sun..
Exalted 1e had more mystery more places for the GM to make up their own stuff and play against type to keep their PC's surprised..
By contrast, 2e seemed to jetison the greco-roman and sword and sorcery elements to completely embrace Anime above all else. Solars were downplayed as being Heroic and made far more ambiguous, Creation got bigger and emptier..You had Magitech all over the damn place..the Sun was a fucking flying machine that shot heat lasers, and everything was over explained with no mystery and no room for a GM to put in their own creations. Everything was overly explained, the crapsack was cranked up, and it eventually become a bloated mess with stupid added Lore elements that seemed to take away rather than add.
Quote from: Brand55;850255I was shocked when I first looked at the numbers. Not by the total pledged, though that was surprising enough. But when I saw that the average backer level was around $150 with hundreds of people going much higher than that, I could hardly believe it.
A lot of people are upset, yes. But there are a lot of other people that will rabidly gobble up anything, good or bad, OPP puts out with "Exalted" slapped on the cover.
I think a lot of that good will is gone. The developers took a valuable and rare commodity (good will) and systematically fucked it away. I don't think you will see anything like the first kickstarter when time comes for the second and later ones.
But I maybe wrong.
Quote from: Snowman0147;850262What made the first edition so much better than the second edition? I am curious about that because so many exalted players love the first edition, but hated the later editions.
My personal opinion:
Exalted 1e core book was awesome (the setting; the rules have never worked, although 2nd edition managed in the no small task of being even worse than the first. I wonder at how someone can really dig the concept of "an RPG in which every combat plays like a full blown CCG game"). It had this "ancient classical hero" vibe but with modern sensibilities baked in.
You could play demigods on a holy mission. Yeah, you could go nuts and slaughter half a city in a fit of rage but on the whole, the idea was you got the superpowers because God saw something good in you and used you as a means to change the world for the better. Basically, you played Superman but a bit less annoyingly perfect.
Then this tone was ruined almost immediately after that first book. Just having the Unconquered Sun being a crack addict already does untold damage to the initial idea, never mind the rest of the crap they kept coming out with after that. Although, some of the 1e stuff was still decent enough; but it became really obvious, really early, how a lot of those books were unnecessary at best and just a money-making scheme. I mean you have what... 8 different types of possible supernatural PCs? Solars, Lunars, Sidereals, Dragon-blooded, Abyssals, Alchemicals and Fair Folk... then they added Infernals in 2e.
2e was just all of the crap dialed up to eleven. It had to make everything even more ambiguous, the gonzo factor was increased... and honestly unlike 1e which had its moments, almost every single one of those books was just "let's milk our fans" material.
I haven't been that impressed by the 3rd edition setting material in spite of claims that its intended to return to 1e's style. Any thoughts on that?
What is the relationship between the people and companies of Onyx Path and the Exalted team?
Because, I loved the Trinity games, and I imagine their team will have a kickstarter of some sort. So far, I don't pledge for unstarted projects, but the Trinity setting is one that I would be tempted to do so.
Quote from: Baron Opal;850359What is the relationship between the people and companies of Onyx Path and the Exalted team?
Because, I loved the Trinity games, and I imagine their team will have a kickstarter of some sort. So far, I don't pledge for unstarted projects, but the Trinity setting is one that I would be tempted to do so.
As I understand the Trinty games are being done by a completely different design team with different objectives.For one, they won't be Storyteller. Also, as far I have heard OP other kickstarter projects have been much better handled. I don't back Kickstarters at all but from those that have invested in others aside from Exalted 3rd by OP they generally seem to be pleased with the results.
But again, this is secondhand knowledge so please don't risk money on my word alone.
Quote from: Nexus;850386As I understand the Trinty games are being done by a completely different design team with different objectives.For one, they won't be Storyteller. Also, as far I have heard OP other kickstarter projects have been much better handled. I don't back Kickstarters at all but from those that have invested in others aside from Exalted 3rd by OP they generally seem to be pleased with the results.
But again, this is secondhand knowledge so please don't risk money on my word alone.
The only other OPP Kickstarter that had any major problems I am aware of was the one for the V20 Companion. I think it was the first KS campaign they ran, in fact. I do know that a lot of people weren't happy with how that book came out, and it was horribly overpriced (originally at least $50 for an 80-page book).
Here are some quotes from the V20 Companion reviews on drivethrurpg:
QuoteI was so unhappy with this book and their Kickstarter, that I threw them up on eBay and took a loss just to get rid of it.
The worst part of this very short book was there is a section of what they didnt include in the book....yeah, rather than include SOMETHING else decent, they blab on about what you aren't getting.
QuoteOverview:
Merits: a few titles and locations with potential.
Flaws: Dry. Shallow. Unimaginative. Dropping names in examples is not an all solving tool for drama and mood.
QuoteThis has to be the biggest rip off in WW history. What Onyx Publishing did is a travesty to all fans by shortchanging us like this.
It has only 80 pages, with about 20% of t being rehashed and useless, the backer names are in one garbled mess and there are typos everywhere.
Everything else has gone pretty smoothly, to my knowledge.
Quote from: Brand55;850392The only other OPP Kickstarter that had any major problems I am aware of was the one for the V20 Companion. I think it was the first KS campaign they ran, in fact. I do know that a lot of people weren't happy with how that book came out, and it was horribly overpriced (originally at least $50 for an 80-page book).
Here are some quotes from the V20 Companion reviews on drivethrurpg:
Everything else has gone pretty smoothly, to my knowledge.
Damn, that's pretty godawful.
Quote from: Nexus;850405Damn, that's pretty godawful.
Yeah. Some people were happy, of course, but a significant portion of the backers were extremely upset. I don't follow the V20 line (or OPP in general) too closely, but it does seem that they learned their lesson.
It remains to be seen if the Exalted team will learn from their mistakes as well.
Quote from: Nexus;850386As I understand the Trinty games are being done by a completely different design team with different objectives.For one, they won't be Storyteller. Also, as far I have heard OP other kickstarter projects have been much better handled. I don't back Kickstarters at all but from those that have invested in others aside from Exalted 3rd by OP they generally seem to be pleased with the results.
But again, this is secondhand knowledge so please don't risk money on my word alone.
As I understand it Onyx Path largely allows each development team to do there own thing and make there own decisions. This is part of the problem with the Exatled team. They have no one pushing them to make decisions and act in a reasonable manner.
But as I understand it Onyx Path has been much more strict on Kickstarter rules lately. They require that the majority of the text be completed before the Kickstarter is launched.
If you want to get Trinity and the developers give you a substantive preview of the material (over 50% of the material) then back it. If they do not provide that then I would wait till its published.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;850432If you want to get Trinity and the developers give you a substantive preview of the material (over 50% of the material) then back it. If they do not provide that then I would wait till its published.
I don't see anything like that happening.
Quote from: Snowman0147;850262What made the first edition so much better than the second edition? I am curious about that because so many exalted players love the first edition, but hated the later editions.
That's easy: the setting wasn't bogged down with a soap opera and hobbled by far too much mythology. They lost the plot when Games of Divinity game out.
Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;850449That's easy: the setting wasn't bogged down with a soap opera and hobbled by far too much mythology. They lost the plot when Games of Divinity game out.
Man. Three long paragraphs of mine perfectly summed up in two short sentences.
Quote from: Luca;850452Man. Three long paragraphs of mine perfectly summed up in two short sentences.
Look at how people discuss it: they talk about it as they would episodic TV, like Game of Thrones. This makes no sense to me. It shouldn't be about the metaplot, if we must have one, but about the setting and, ideally, also the mechanics.
It's become a soap opera, not a game. We didn't need a 3e, we just needed to reprint 1e (plus a few changes, such as get rid of the Limit Break/video game bollocks).
I don't know if this is something that had it's start in 2nd or if it continued from 1st edition, but the canon npcs constantly having to be removed from the game to allow players to do things was ridiculous.
Want to be the first Solar to rediscover Solar level sorcery? Tough shit, we wrote someone else doing it.
Want to start a merc company out of Nexus? Fuck you, we thought of that too.
Want your former incarnation to be a Death Lord and to have a more personal tie to the overall conflict? Just fuck off already.
Throughoout 2nd edition, it seemed like the writing was less about creating a sandbox for GMs and players to explore and more about masturbating to how awesome their own characters were. People hated it in Scion, hated it in Exalted 2nd and I'm willing to bet people are going to hate it in 3rd as well.
Don't know much about either Scion or Exalted, but as much as I dislike nWoD it doesn't seem to have this problem, because there isn't a metaplot. Metaplot seems to focus all it's attention on one conflict. I like it best when there are multiple conflicts provided and I can just pick and choose one that appeals to me.
Quote from: Orphan81;850276There's many reasons, and I'll try to go over some of them briefly.
First, let's talk mechanics...
Simply put, 1e is better mechanically than 2e. 2e attempted to "Fix" the problems of 1e and in the end, just made things worse. The Ink Monkeys coming on "fixed" 2e, but in the end this still made it a horrendous mess compared to 1e.
1e was a lot like typical white wolf. Combat wise, it played like you expected Storyteller to play..It wasn't overly complicated, it didn't have as much charm bloat, and the system didn't have all the fiddly bits that 2e did.
It was still the most complex whitewolf game released at the time, but when you compare it to 2e it seems streamlined and simple. Combat was fun. When the player's guide was released and introduced the "Power Combat" rules addition, it got even better.
There were still "Land Mines" in the system, Charms that could break the game in certain combinations, but ST's and Players could avoid those when they learned about them.
2e just made things way more complicated, it just added so many extra options that were unnecessary. You didn't need 3 different versions of "Excellency" for each charm...1 version worked perfectly, 3 versions just made more complicated ways to spend motes.
Then you get into the whole problem of DV... Defense Value in 2e was so easy to break, and so easy to reach the point where there literally was no point in trying to attack certain characters, because you would never get the successes needed to hit their DV.
1e still had rolled defenses. Even if you had a shit ton of dice, you could still roll poorly, and the attacker could roll well, there wasn't a futility to combat, or the need of a GM to either nerf the shit out of an enemy or overload them with so much accuracy they always had a chance of hitting the PC with the highest DV....which meant they would just obliterate a PC with a lower DV..
1e certainly has warts, but looking back now, I can honestly say 1e was overall a much more mechanically sound system, that was easier to run and easier for PC's to get into.
2e introduced things like "Join Battle" rolls, Battle Wheels, a glut of charms in the corebook, DV and Mental DV, and later on a scroll of errata that basically just rewrote the game from scratch...
Now lets get to style of 1e vs 2e...
Stylistically 1e was the perfect blend of Sword and Sorcery combined with Anime. One flavor did not over power the other. The art alone featured both beautiful Anime pieces as well as more traditional and greco-roman looking pieces..
The world itself had much more of a "Weird" 1930's fantasy vibe to go with the Anime as well. Conan fit right in with Cloud depending on where you were in the world. Old Ruins of a bygone age that were ripe for exploration, a desert capital city where trade was all that mattered....combined with Anime style Pirate Shenanigans in the far west, and an evil Empire that combined Final Fantasy style steam punk with Greco-Roman military discipline.
Furthermore, the world was far less "Crapsack" than 2e. Yes it was still an age of Sorrows, yes it was full of scum and villainy and darkness... but the Solar Exalted were a sign of HOPE.
The Unconquered Sun was shown as an entity that was GOOD. The Solars, while some of them were capable of evil (And even given examples were they were crazy, looking at you Lyta and your Giant Sun Laser sacrifices!) most Solars were unquestionably good, and dedicated to making the world a better place. You had to be exceptional, a Hero to become a Solar, and the Sun often talked to those he Exalted, telling them to go forth and make the world righteous in their sight.
The Solars were not "Lawgivers" they were Heroes, whether greco-roman or modern in their inclinations.
Magitech was also rare, to the point where the Escaflowne Mecha were completely optional. There were no "Cathedral Factories" and the like.
Exalted 1e also had a far more "Mythical" aspect to it. The Sun was not a Giant Warmachine that could fire lasers...It was the sun..
Exalted 1e had more mystery more places for the GM to make up their own stuff and play against type to keep their PC's surprised..
By contrast, 2e seemed to jetison the greco-roman and sword and sorcery elements to completely embrace Anime above all else. Solars were downplayed as being Heroic and made far more ambiguous, Creation got bigger and emptier..You had Magitech all over the damn place..the Sun was a fucking flying machine that shot heat lasers, and everything was over explained with no mystery and no room for a GM to put in their own creations. Everything was overly explained, the crapsack was cranked up, and it eventually become a bloated mess with stupid added Lore elements that seemed to take away rather than add.
Yes - as a GM of several Exalted 1E and 2E games - this, just this explains a lot. I wish this forum had a +1 button or a +1 rep button because this post is golden.
I only ever got to *play* 2E, and was in some great games and in some so-so games.
The one thing I think they've done right with 3E is the map. If nothing else, the map. Looking at the original vs 3E, the massive scale is so much more appropriate to the setting.
Early Exalted did have more of a sense of freedom, even wonder in the setting material. The blend of anime, sword and sorcery, classical myth and other influences felt about right (or could be adjusted to taste pretty easily). Even the fanbase felt more open minded, open to interpretation and homebrews with less of the obsessing over getting things "right" and adhering to the sociopolitical screed the game has steadily become.
Hell, in some ways it was "Trash TV" with plenty of sex, violence and over the top aspects but it was fun, more fun than when it became "Serious Business", IMO.
I might just buy 1e again. The location supplements were decent enough. Don't really need anything more.
Yeah, as far as Exalted goes, I have the core 1e book and I am looking to by the Autocthon book. Once I have that I have enough creativity fertilizer for my Nine Planes campaign.
Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;850666I might just buy 1e again. The location supplements were decent enough. Don't really need anything more.
I've heard of several groups that have done this and seem to be doing just fine.
re: the Crafting system argument:
I guess my problem with the crafts system is almost a "get off my lawn" thing. Did people really need the Exalted Devs to tell them how to play an entertaining crafter that badly? I find that idea that players have be baited and lead by the nose like donkey with a carrot tied to its head more than a little patronizing.
"I can make things to bribe people, I can sell things to make myself rich, I can devise mundane but effect large scale weapons..." these seem like pretty bog standard things to do with a "crafter" (assuming your concept is inventor its a pretty broad archetype with several possible variations). You get rewarded for it by getting experience and having fun like everyone else that plays their character. Do you really need a complicate system of number juggling to tell you this?
And frankly, if you're having fun sitting in the Craft Cave and churning out items and artifacts and its not destroying the game... more power to you. The game is about having fun not playing "right", whatever that means.
OMG the artifact crafting in Exalted 2.0 was a fucking nightmare. Scion did a much better job with relics in their companion supplement. Just borrow from that Exalted 3rd Edition devs. You don't make complicated just make it easy to understand.
In all honesty you can't beat this is how many dots this ability is worth. Oh you want your relic to heal people like a third level boon? That is three dots in the relic. You want a +2 dice bonus? Why bother when you can just double the dice pool for that specific dexterity + medicine dice roll for only one dot. That way you got a four dot relic that doubles your dice pool when you try to heal people. Which means you can do more healing.
Do you see how simple that is? Exalted can't even do that shit right. No they gave me vague as fuck rules so I can't even produce a balance item of power without breaking the game.
Quote from: Nexus;850386As I understand the Trinty games are being done by a completely different design team with different objectives.For one, they won't be Storyteller. Also, as far I have heard OP other kickstarter projects have been much better handled. I don't back Kickstarters at all but from those that have invested in others aside from Exalted 3rd by OP they generally seem to be pleased with the results.
But again, this is secondhand knowledge so please don't risk money on my word alone.
Here is Holden Shearer's current sig over at TPB:
QuoteExalted game line co-developer
Current projects: Arms of the Chosen, Dragon-Blooded: What Fire Has Wrought, The Realm, Trinity Continuum: Æon
Given the big lesson he took from developing Exalted was that they didn't keep the playtest group small enough, I expect he will limit the playtest to himself.
I'd be less baffled with the insane fear of piracy if they hadn't already sold the damn thing upfront.
Well, fuck.
At least there's still some hope for Aberrant I guess.
Quote from: Nexus;851025Well, fuck.
At least there's still some hope for Aberrant I guess.
I always liked Aberrant. And Adventure! Trinity not so much.
JG
I never actually played Aberrant, Trinity or Adventure. I had reached the point of total Storyteller system fatigue by then. Actually, that's not entirely true, as I did buy Exalted 1st edition.
Partly, it comes down to the fact that I have never had much interest in running superhero games. I am fine with playing in them, but they don't engage me as a GM. As for Trinity, I was into Fading Suns as my SF game of that era. Adventure just passed me by.
The Trinity System being proposed code named "Sardoynx" (which will cover Aeon, Adventure, Abberant as well as a modern day action setting in the core book) looks very...interesting.
The Onyx Path website has links to the beta system documents. It's very ambitious and I hope it works, but I'll have to see it more in play. It's too complicated for me to give a short description.... Suffice to say it will be Attribute+Skill only your powers can give you extra "effect" Successes that can be spent for things like....hitting multiple opponents, or completing a task faster more impressively and the like.
Also, damage to extra's versus main characters is handled differently. An examples such as a Nova who can blow up tanks and cars with no issue because he does something like 35 damage to non-important NPC targets and areas... but only does 8 damage as direct attacks against the player controlled car they're running away in.
There's also a token economy of red and black points earned when PC's "Fail" a roll. Every time they fail they get another one of these points which can start being spent for extra "Effect" points. So as a battle goes and builds, Fate begins sweeping in the direction of the PC's.
Overall very interesting, but I'll have to see how it happens in play.
I just hope Onyx Path has learned from this debacle, and either pulls him from the project, or keeps a much tighter rein on him. I would prefer the latter, since he can write and has shown that he can do good work, but letting him be the final arbiter of a project is the reason Exalted has been such an issue.
Quote from: Orphan81;851055The Trinity System being proposed code named "Sardoynx" (which will cover Aeon, Adventure, Abberant as well as a modern day action setting in the core book) looks very...interesting.
The Onyx Path website has links to the beta system documents. It's very ambitious and I hope it works, but I'll have to see it more in play. It's too complicated for me to give a short description.... Suffice to say it will be Attribute+Skill only your powers can give you extra "effect" Successes that can be spent for things like....hitting multiple opponents, or completing a task faster more impressively and the like.
Also, damage to extra's versus main characters is handled differently. An examples such as a Nova who can blow up tanks and cars with no issue because he does something like 35 damage to non-important NPC targets and areas... but only does 8 damage as direct attacks against the player controlled car they're running away in.
There's also a token economy of red and black points earned when PC's "Fail" a roll. Every time they fail they get another one of these points which can start being spent for extra "Effect" points. So as a battle goes and builds, Fate begins sweeping in the direction of the PC's.
Overall very interesting, but I'll have to see how it happens in play.
Is it a new system or a Storyteller derivative?
Quote from: James Gillen;851026I always liked Aberrant. And Adventure! Trinity not so much.
JG
Aberrant was the one that grabbed me too, hated the ham fisted heavy handed way the developers and writers drove the meta plot down your throat though. It worked so much better divorced from Aeon continuity so the PCs could actually DO things that mattered.
It's a Storyteller derivative, it will still be Attribute+Skill just with success now more about spending for "Effects" and powers giving extra "effect points" (But not success) and new ways to spend those effect points.
Quote from: Brand55;850416Yeah. Some people were happy, of course, but a significant portion of the backers were extremely upset. I don't follow the V20 line (or OPP in general) too closely, but it does seem that they learned their lesson.
It remains to be seen if the Exalted team will learn from their mistakes as well.
The big problems with the V20 Companion, so far as I can tell, were that:
a) they didn't do a brilliant job of communicating what it was going to be about, which meant people felt they got sold a pig-in-a-poke, and
b) it was probably too trivial product to build a Kickstarter around.
The Companion is just a grab-bag of stuff which is interesting, but isn't essential enough to Vampire to go in the big fat V20 core book. That's a reasonable concept for a book, but by definition any such book is going to be inessential - because if it were essential, the material in question would have been in the core - and less cohesive and interesting than a book on a more fully-developed subject.
I bought the Companion after the controversy had long since died down. I'm fine with it, but that's knowing that it's a grab-bag of stuff that by definition isn't particularly important or essential. It doesn't seem like a book which would merit all the fanfare and excitement of a Kickstarter - more like a fatter-than-average version of the sort of booklets of odds and ends that get packaged with GM screens in more conventionally-published product lines.
The big lesson they learned were as follows:
To solve a), make it clear
exactly what the scope of the proposed project was going to be for their future WoD Kickstarters. This has extended to putting the full first draft text up for download at the start of the Kickstarter, which has worked much better than anyone anticipated - just about the only time that's blown up in their face has been when they had the big backlash against Beast based on the first draft, but I think OP would have rather had the controversy kick off around a first draft that they had plenty of time to change and revise than go through the full process of making the book and then having it kick off a massive flamewar in the fanbase, so even when offering the books upfront has failed, it's succeeded in other ways if you see what I mean.
To solve b), don't bother doing a Kickstarter for this sort of product - save it for products with a strong central concept that people can get excited about. Anarchs Unbound, the revised Hunters Hunted, Lore of the Clans - those are all books which Vampire fans can get excited about. Provided you are interested in the central concept of the product in question and they don't actually botch the design (and to my eyes their batting average there is much better for V20 than it ever was for the original product line), it's highly unlikely you'll be disappointed in what you get. People who don't give a shit about Anarchs didn't back Anarchs Unbound, those who do did and were very pleased with what they got.
Quote from: Orphan81;851055The Trinity System being proposed code named "Sardoynx" (which will cover Aeon, Adventure, Abberant as well as a modern day action setting in the core book) looks very...interesting.
The Onyx Path website has links to the beta system documents. It's very ambitious and I hope it works, but I'll have to see it more in play. It's too complicated for me to give a short description.... Suffice to say it will be Attribute+Skill only your powers can give you extra "effect" Successes that can be spent for things like....hitting multiple opponents, or completing a task faster more impressively and the like.
Also, damage to extra's versus main characters is handled differently. An examples such as a Nova who can blow up tanks and cars with no issue because he does something like 35 damage to non-important NPC targets and areas... but only does 8 damage as direct attacks against the player controlled car they're running away in.
A bit simplified, but it seems like it could work.
JG
Quote from: Orphan81;851076It's a Storyteller derivative, it will still be Attribute+Skill just with success now more about spending for "Effects" and powers giving extra "effect points" (But not success) and new ways to spend those effect points.
Thank you. Color me dubious. I don't feel Storyteller is a very flexible system and doesn't seem to work well very far from its roots particularly for high powered games. And on a more personal level this system sounds fairly narrative and "meta". Such systems never click very well with me (such as Exalted 3rd). But I'll probably take a look when its released.
One of the issues with storyteller, structurally, lies in it's VTM design roots - VTM was originally designed as a pensive game in which vampires manipulated and schemed with each other in which, when violence took place, it was terminal. VTM 1E characters had amazing powers but they were fragile with their 7 health levels. VTM characters were discouraged, systemically, from fighting. The mechanics of VTM 1E (which carried into later WoD iterations) encouraged this play style.
This started to show cracks as this mechanical system was ported to other games. For games with more or less human characters, like Changeling, this really wasnt an issue. But cracks started to show in games as early in Werewolf. By the time you got to the Aeonverse games (Trinity, Aeon, etc) you had horridly unbalanced games which were fundamentally flawed, and games like Exalted, which developed systems like Paranoia combat because the bones of original VTM (Attribute+Ability, Soak, 7 health levels) simply could not support game action absolutely at odds with the original 20 years prior game design. Exalted sought to emulate Final Fantasy - Advent Children, a kind of fiction directly at odds with the Anita Blake books, Anne Rice Novels and other vampire fiction that VTM 1 was designed to emulate.
This clearly illustrates one thing - rules and design matters. The base bones of Aeonverse, Scion and Exalted (VTM 1) are not designed to handle high powered action, being created for a pensive, moody vampire game. Game mechanics are designed to emulate and simulate various fictions.
I exist on this site merely to remind people of "Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game". This Storyteller Game, a modification of the original rules, pre-Revised era, was not pensive! Nor lethal! In fact, I don't think there are actual rules for dying. I'd say the combat roots of Exalted lie somewhere in SF:TSG, though I don't think Exalted took the right lessons from it.
Shoryuken!
The Sardonyx System has my interest. I think slight change in the right direction is better than none. I agree, though, that even Sardonyx is not what i would call a new system (it seems all the folks who work at OPP have no idea what words like "rebuilt from the ground up" or "a totally different system than Storyteller/Storytelling" mean).
Still, i find the way the Devs of Scion 2 interact with their fans and talk openly about Sardonyx enough reason to give them a chance. No system is perfect and some of the parts do sound interesting. And all in all, i like dicepool systems with Att+Skill.
OTOH i agree that such a system most probably will also not scale that well. And i do wonder why they cling to the basic structure so hard?! I mean there are tons of possibilities to use dicepools if you have to. If you are all stuck in the ST system and can't unsee what you have seen why not just hire a freelancer who has worked on different systems (and NOT ST stuff) and/or knows his math well and can build a truly different system that is still...recognizable...enough. Oh well...
As to Holden as a Dev. ... well to be fair he is not the only problem with the Exalted team (*cough* Morke *cough*...*cough*Rich*cough*). To solely blame him is wrong. So i don't think that every team he is with is going to produce shit...especially if he is not the lead-designer or co-lead designer. So yeah...
Got no problem with Storyteller, just don't want to roll 50d10 to see if i punch a man through a mountain.
As one of the designers of Storypath ("Sardonyx") sure we know. We've designed other systems for other companies, for our own individual self-pubs. We just wanted a D10 dice pool system with dots on the character sheet, is all. Call it knowing our audience.
Storypath has less in common with Storyteller than Storytelling (the rules nWoD uses) does. It does many things differently, but it's not made for modern-horror games. It's made for action-adventure with varying scale of characters within a scene. You could run the Avengers with it. One of the team runs a Ghost in the Shell game with it.
It has had no crossover of development staff with Exalted 3rd, but we wouldn't use it for Exalted or either World of Darkness anyway - Storypath is for our gamelines, not the ones we licence from CCP.
Oh, I see. Backtracked up the thread to Holden's .sig.
Holden's a writer on Aeon, not its Developer. Aeon's Developer is John Snead, working under Ian Watson as the overall Trinity Dev. He didn't contribute to the rules engine.
Quote from: DaveB;851324Aeon's Developer is John Snead, working under Ian Watson as the overall Trinity Dev. He didn't contribute to the rules engine.
Oh! I like Mr. Snead's work... I'm assuming Ian Watson isn't the same Ian Watson who writes scifi novels (whose stuff I also like)?
Quote from: Simlasa;851328Oh! I like Mr. Snead's work... I'm assuming Ian Watson isn't the same Ian Watson who writes scifi novels (whose stuff I also like)?
No, he's not that Ian Watson. (I like him, too. The Fire Worm was my main inspiration for my bits of Beast: The Primordial).
I was terribly disappointed the day I found out British Steve Jackson was not the same man as GURPS Steve Jackson.
So much for Aeon/Trinity. If it's still using the the Storyteller system again, it's still not going to be able handle combat. I don't care if it's stripped down, modified or whatever, it's still not going to cut it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;851333So much for Aeon/Trinity. If it's still using the the Storyteller system again, it's still not going to be able handle combat. I don't care if it's stripped down, modified or whatever, it's still not going to cut it.
It's not using the Storyteller system again.
Quote from: DaveB;851324Oh, I see. Backtracked up the thread to Holden's .sig.
Holden's a writer on Aeon, not its Developer. Aeon's Developer is John Snead, working under Ian Watson as the overall Trinity Dev. He didn't contribute to the rules engine.
Hey Dave! Just wanted to say I love your work, and I'm looking forward to Aeon! Everything about it sounds pretty interesting so far!
Quote from: DaveB;851324Oh, I see. Backtracked up the thread to Holden's .sig.
Holden's a writer on Aeon, not its Developer. Aeon's Developer is John Snead, working under Ian Watson as the overall Trinity Dev. He didn't contribute to the rules engine.
Okay. My only concern with Holden was simply his security concerns getting in the way of playtesting. A an exception-based power system that provides automatic successes to a dice pool is going to need a solid playtest pool. I've always liked John Snead's work, so you guys have my attention.
Quote from: Baulderstone;851348Okay. My only concern with Holden was simply his security concerns getting in the way of playtesting. A an exception-based power system that provides automatic successes to a dice pool is going to need a solid playtest pool. I've always liked John Snead's work, so you guys have my attention.
Hah. Yeah. Two months ago I coordinated Mage: The Awakening's open-call playtest (we'd had invitationals before then), whittling 95 groups who applied/volunteered down to 10, sending them playtest packets, laying out what I needed in terms of notes. Not a single leak (so far!) and a notably above-norm quality of feedback. And I took the complete text to GenCon - had one copy on me (and ran a pick-up game of it for fans in a hotel lobby), left one at the booth.
Storypath will go up (without any of the Scion or Trinity specific mechanics, and entirely setting-less) for people to read and tinker with as soon as possible. It's been sent to a laundry list of industry figures for commentary already.
INCOMING RANT:
Why the hell are leaks even important? What? You're afraid that someone will steal your ideas and come out 'first' stealing all your costumers? I'm sorry, Cupcake, but the RPG market ain't that competitive.
The only thing being afraid of 'leaks' does in this hobby is make some people question just how good it'll be if you're afraid to show it to your potential audience. So buck up, pumpkin, and let it all out. The more people know about an RPG, and if it's really good, the more they'll want it.
There's no such thing as leaks if you're willing to show people what you got. This isn't a movie, or even a video game, where knowing a bit of the potential story could ruin the entire thing, we make up our own 'stories' here. There's no right nor wrong way to play.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;851364INCOMING RANT:
Why the hell are leaks even important? What? You're afraid that someone will steal your ideas and come out 'first' stealing all your costumers? I'm sorry, Cupcake, but the RPG market ain't that competitive.
The only thing being afraid of 'leaks' does in this hobby is make some people question just how good it'll be if you're afraid to show it to your potential audience. So buck up, pumpkin, and let it all out. The more people know about an RPG, and if it's really good, the more they'll want it.
There's no such thing as leaks if you're willing to show people what you got. This isn't a movie, or even a video game, where knowing a bit of the potential story could ruin the entire thing, we make up our own 'stories' here. There's no right nor wrong way to play.
What I gather from the Dev posts is that they felt if anything was revealed piecemeal not in its whole and complete Final Form it would be misinterpreted by the fanbase and unjustly picked apart. The Leak also deprived them of the thrill of a big reveal. I guess it something like how parents might feel if their kids find their Christmas presents early?
The discussion and disagreement over the leak is being held up as proof they were right. Though generally the reception has been positive, IME And fan hostility seems to stem largely from delays, lack of information for so long and the general attitude of the devs have demonstrated more than the product itself. And really, welcome to Real World. Everyone isn't going to love every part of everything you do.
The weirdest trend in TBP threads discussing the leak is people that claim they haven't read a word of the document telling people that say they have of misinterpreting it because they're conclusion is negative. The amount of pure faith invested in this project is amazing.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;851364INCOMING RANT:
Why the hell are leaks even important? What? You're afraid that someone will steal your ideas and come out 'first' stealing all your costumers? I'm sorry, Cupcake, but the RPG market ain't that competitive.
Leaks worsen the Signal : Noise ratio. When you receive feedback for your new system, game, whatever, you want input only from those you selected, not a horde of people with potentially partial information.
You are correct, this isn't about theft of ideas. It is about taking the time to communicate the materials to be tested along with the unwritten assumptions. This takes time, effort, and direct communication which is difficult to explain to the masses.
Quote from: Baron Opal;851524Leaks worsen the Signal : Noise ratio. When you receive feedback for your new system, game, whatever, you want input only from those you selected, not a horde of people with potentially partial information.
You are correct, this isn't about theft of ideas. It is about taking the time to communicate the materials to be tested along with the unwritten assumptions. This takes time, effort, and direct communication which is difficult to explain to the masses.
Are people so sensitive that they can't continue with their vision of their game if some people on some forum decide to misconstrue what they get, then maybe they should get out of dealing with the rest of humans.
Secondly, the real issue I personally have with that attitude, this fear of leaks, is that it implies that they don't trust their game. And if the designers can't trust their own game, why should I?
When a book's finished writing-wise, a leak is just an extremely ugly way to experience the book, without any aids to cross-referencing that might exist in the final product. Like running it through an e-reader.
A *playtest* leak can mean the first impression of your game (in this mercurial industry) is of rules that have already changed because they were found to not work in the playtest. Assuming that you're actually running a playtest for a purpose beyond PR.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;851544Are people so sensitive that they can't continue with their vision of their game if some people on some forum decide to misconstrue what they get, then maybe they should get out of dealing with the rest of humans.
Secondly, the real issue I personally have with that attitude, this fear of leaks, is that it implies that they don't trust their game. And if the designers can't trust their own game, why should I?
I think your assumptions are faulty.
It's not message board sensitivity or fear of bruised feelings, it's the frustration of wading through hundreds of useless, if not frankly antagonistic*, emails to find the handful that are giving you useful feedback. The feedback that has been structured in a particular manner so that you can find aspects of it quickly and actually use it.
And, of course they don't trust their game. That's why you have it playtested. You don't show off a product when it's crap, you show it off when it's refined and polished. That's basic marketing.
It's a lot like pre-release movie screenings. You sign a NDA, and watch a movie for free. It's almost always crap, because what you see is partially edited and sometimes without all the SFX or scores. But, you're there to help polish the movie into a finished product. You sign the NDA so that when it is released there isn't any buzz out that the movie sucks. Of course it sucks, it wasn't finished yet.
This is the same kind of thing.
* Internet culture being what it is.
Quote from: Baron Opal;851589I think your assumptions are faulty.
You may be right, but I'm going to refute yours as best I can. No offense, just trying to parse out what I'm trying to say.
Quote from: Baron Opal;851589It's not message board sensitivity or fear of bruised feelings, it's the frustration of wading through hundreds of useless, if not frankly antagonistic*, emails to find the handful that are giving you useful feedback. The feedback that has been structured in a particular manner so that you can find aspects of it quickly and actually use it.
This issue I have is that those E-mails, hell, any E-mails/posts -good or bad but especially the negative ones-, are ascribed any value whatsoever bothers me. If they do bother, then I believe that the individual in question is being overly sensitive.
Quote from: Baron Opal;851589And, of course they don't trust their game. That's why you have it playtested. You don't show off a product when it's crap, you show it off when it's refined and polished. That's basic marketing.
No, this is an incorrect assumption. If you don't believe in your product, marketing 101 says don't make it. Playtesting is to make sure all the parts are working right. It has nothing to do with the product's base assumptions, the playtesters should have no say in how the game is going to go, just that all the parts make it go in the way that the designers want it to.
Quote from: Baron Opal;851589It's a lot like pre-release movie screenings.
And this is another misconception. Movies have NDAs simply because they have a story to tell, and don't want it spoiled before people come out. RPGs don't, or rather, shouldn't have a story, because it's up to the players/owners of the book/game in question to make their own. The only 'spoilers' are the mechanics, and frankly, that's laughable. Mechanics are going to be picked apart no matter what, and nothing is perfect.
Be open when you make a game, and ignore the idiots that constantly come and whine about such and such isn't working, and never give reasons why. Tell your potential customer about your game, give them things to play with, small chunks and 'demos', and explain EXACTLY where and what this part does. And if they STILL misconstrue your intent, well fuck them, that's they mental problem and are not going to be important in the long run. Cuz if you love your game idea, and put that love into it, you WILL find a market (no matter how small or large) that will appreciate you. Look at Palladium, Pathfinder, D&D, BRP, FATE and all.
NDAs for RPGs is stupid, nonsensical and frankly, I've seen them damage more reputations than actually help.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;851596You may be right, but I'm going to refute yours as best I can. No offense, just trying to parse out what I'm trying to say.
None taken, argue away.
QuoteThis issue I have is that those E-mails, hell, any E-mails/posts -good or bad but especially the negative ones-, are ascribed any value whatsoever bothers me. If they do bother, then I believe that the individual in question is being overly sensitive.
It isn't an emotional issue at the replies, it's trying to find what you're looking for. In my experience, a similar issue in a different industry, it's a bit like this:
YesNoMaybeFindingYesNoMaybeYesNoTheMaybeYesContentNoMaybeYesMayNoMaybeYesNoMaybeBeYesNoMaybeYesNoEasyMaybeYesNoMaybeYesNoEnoughMaybeYesNoMaybeYesButNoMaybeYesNoITMaybeYesNoMaybeYesIsNoMaybeYesNoMaybeYesStiillNoMaybeYesNoMaybeYesANoMaybeYesNoMaybeYesNoMaybeYesNoPainMaybeYesNoMaybeYesNoInMaybeYesNoMaybeYesNoTheMaybeYesNoMaybeYesNoNeckMaybeYesNoMaybeYesNoMaybe
Frustrating, because there's a lot of noise. Especially if finding my spelling mistake is important.
QuotePlaytesting is to make sure all the parts are working right. It has nothing to do with the product's base assumptions, the playtesters should have no say in how the game is going to go, just that all the parts make it go in the way that the designers want it to.
I agree with this, and is what I was trying to say above. I quibble a bit in that I think playtesters should say "you seem to want to go with this theme / mechanic, but you are really driving this other theme / mechanic. Rethink your assumptions." But, I think we're on the same page here.
QuoteMovies have NDAs simply because they have a story to tell... Mechanics are going to be picked apart no matter what, and nothing is perfect.
Eh, it's an analogy, and thus imperfect.
QuoteBe open when you make a game, and ignore the idiots that constantly come and whine about such and such isn't working, and never give reasons why. ...
NDAs for RPGs is stupid, nonsensical and frankly, I've seen them damage more reputations than actually help.
I see having a closed playtest as an efficient means of increasing the signal to noise, because you are specifically selecting the people to give you useful feedback. For games, RPGs in particular, a NDA is just a means to say "guys, really, don't talk about it. I don't want to be distracted by the crap other people are going to send my way."
I certainly do not see it as some legal stick to threaten people with, the industry is too small for that.
I said the same thing earlier in the thread, and I'm going to say it again. Secrecy is a mug's game. It's what idiots who've disappeared up their own arses, thinking their "vision" is so incredible that it just can't be shared until it's "ready", do.
I'm working on a game project right now, and one thing I'm incredibly proud of is forcing the doors of the vault open and making our development open and transparent. I'm hosting a rolling playtest with regular updates, where everyone involved (but also anyone who just want to grab it and play for themselves) has access to almost everything we're doing. The only reason it isn't the literal development build they're testing, is that it would be a major ball-ache to get it out to them. But in most of the important aspects, it's functionally similar.
Each time I tweak something with a new release, I'm running the risk of getting something wrong, but I'd rather have thirty people playing and feeding back, than a handful of us developers trying to fit some playtesting in around tinkering.
And you know what the response of the community has been? Welcoming. Yes, they can see the bugs and problems up close, but they can also see the progress and improvement. Furthermore, they're involved in the process, which engages them instead of treating them like an inconvenience outside the thing.
So I'm afraid I have no sympathy for the Exalted development team whatsoever. They're in a shithole entirely of their own invention, largely because not a one of them has a single fucking clue about basic marketing or managing customer expectations.
Quote from: Kiero;851613Secrecy is a mug's game. It's what idiots who've disappeared up their own arses, thinking their "vision" is so incredible that it just can't be shared until it's "ready", do.
I completely agree that secrecy creates a situation where fear and mistrust can develop.
Quote from: Kiero;851613I said the same thing earlier in the thread, and I'm going to say it again. Secrecy is a mug's game. It's what idiots who've disappeared up their own arses, thinking their "vision" is so incredible that it just can't be shared until it's "ready", do.
In the terms of RPGs, secrecy does have one merit: the ability to change a concept/mechanic without players already being invested. I almost passed on 5e - a game I do enjoy now - because I played the playtest documents and was not impressed. Showing off key mechanics which you know is set in stone should happen sooner than later, though.
The problem with Exalted 3e, most people assumed the core concepts were already fleshed out during the Kickstarter launch. In retrospect, people should have known without some sort of preview, the game was still very early in development.
Re: Secrecy about playtest etc
Counterpoint: Pathfinder
Quote from: Spike;851624Re: Secrecy about playtest etc
Counterpoint: Pathfinder
Second counterpoint: FFG Star Wars line.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;851640Second counterpoint: FFG Star Wars line.
Third: D&D 5E. I may wish it had gone a different direction, but I can't deny its success, which is probably in part because of the playtest. Crabbyapples does raise a good point about the risks involved, but on balance, openness (even if you don't have the resources for a full playtest) seems to work better.
Pelgrane Press also is fairly open--they ask " don't talk about it online until the playtest is over," but that's because they want to avoid skewing the feedback from the playtesters themselves.
Quote from: Spike;851624Re: Secrecy about playtest etc
Counterpoint: Pathfinder
Quote from: Warboss Squee;851640Second counterpoint: FFG Star Wars line.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;851641Third: D&D 5E. I may wish it had gone a different direction, but I can't deny its success, which is probably in part because of the playtest. Crabbyapples does raise a good point about the risks involved, but on balance, openness (even if you don't have the resources for a full playtest) seems to work better.
Pelgrane Press also is fairly open--they ask " don't talk about it online until the playtest is over," but that's because they want to avoid skewing the feedback from the playtesters themselves.
And those three success runs are prime examples for why NDAs on RPGs are freakin' STUPID! Perfect examples!
Quote from: Crabbyapples;851620In the terms of RPGs, secrecy does have one merit: the ability to change a concept/mechanic without players already being invested. I almost passed on 5e - a game I do enjoy now - because I played the playtest documents and was not impressed. Showing off key mechanics which you know is set in stone should happen sooner than later, though.
So, if I follow...
1. You played a playtest version of 5E.
2. You had a negative reaction.
3. The designers made changes to the game that made it more to your liking.
4. You bought it.
You are going to need to walk through the part where the open playtesting was bad. I seem to be missing it.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;851641Third: D&D 5E.
Likely Fourth: Delta Green. They are running their Kickstarter next month and they already released freely released a playtest version almost a year ago. From what I have seen, it has only whipped up more enthusiasm for the game.
I was concerned when the game was first announced that their goal of 100% backwards compatibility would mean the system would just be Call of Cthulhu with the serial numbers scratched out. Nothing wrong with CoC, but I have already bought it plenty of times. Running a playtest showed me that while it is a clearly a descendant on CoC, it brings a lot of great mechanics to the table.
QuotePelgrane Press also is fairly open--they ask " don't talk about it online until the playtest is over," but that's because they want to avoid skewing the feedback from the playtesters themselves.
I've done a few playtests for them, and I really like their document explaining what they want (and don't want) from you.
Quote from: Baulderstone;851644So, if I follow...
1. You played a playtest version of 5E.
2. You had a negative reaction.
3. The designers made changes to the game that made it more to your liking.
4. You bought it.
You are going to need to walk through the part where the open playtesting was bad. I seem to be missing it.
If I never returned to the game, because of the first impression, they would have lost my purchase. One guy in my group who was part of the same playtest session will not revisit D&D 5e, as he considers his opinions already set. He said something like, "there are so many other great games out there, why go back and reconsider?".
For me the secrecy wasn't an issue. If the Exalted developers wanted to keep their work a secret that's their right. It was the way the "secrecy" was handled. The incessant "I know a secret and its awesome but I won't tell!" posting, the constant "redacted" BS and taunting over the non reveals.
If want to be secret, be secret. Others games have had quiet development without all the teasing and fanfare over the "secret awesomeness". It was annoying to begin with and started to down right childish.
Quote from: Crabbyapples;851620Quote from: Crabbyapples;851656If I never returned to the game, because of the first impression, they would have lost my purchase. One guy in my group who was part of the same playtest session will not revisit D&D 5e, as he considers his opinions already set. He said something like, "there are so many other great games out there, why go back and reconsider?".
Without the wide playtests, its entirely likely that the game would still be in a similar form to the one he hates, so secrecy doesn't solve the problem.
Another example for the playtest pile: the WH40K Only War playtest that FFG did (which, if I remember right, was their first experiment in open playtests for their RPGs). Not only is Only War surprisingly popular for a comparatively late entry in their WH40K line, but also its rule system is so robust that when FFG tried to go in a radically different direction for the Dark Heresy 2E playtest the overwhelming feedback was "Nah, don't do this, just apply the Only War update to Dark Heresy and then tweak a few things here and there and you're good", and to my eyes the resulting game is decent.
As controversial as the backpedalling on DH2E was, evidently FFG must see the playtests as successes because they've used a similar process for all their Star Wars games.
Count me with those that don't see the point in secrecy in development, but that's just me:).
Quote from: Orphan81;850276There's many reasons, and I'll try to go over some of them briefly.
What's up with you, people? Several posters in the last couple of weeks seem to be trying to make me buy 1e as well;)!
Quote from: AsenRG;851783Count me with those that don't see the point in secrecy in development, but that's just me:).
What's up with you, people? Several posters in the last couple of weeks seem to be trying to make me buy 1e as well;)!
1e, the Screen, Scavenger Lands, and the Player's Guide for the "Power Combat" rules update, all you need.
Something that has puzzled me about the Exalted community is how deeply invested many of writers and fans seem to be in having every level of mook and flunky be as dangerous as possible, down to the local wildlife for a game about playing beings out of myth, legend and pop culture fantasy anime and wuxia.
Its like how in Aberrant, tagline "What would you do with the power of God?" unless you built your character in very specific ways a meth head with a pistol stood a fair chance of taking your "god" out. Let alone police or other trained well equipped "baselines".
Quote from: Nexus;851951Something that has puzzled me about the Exalted community is how deeply invested many of writers and fans seem to be in having every level of mook and flunky be as dangerous as possible, down to the local wildlife for a game about playing beings out of myth, legend and pop culture fantasy anime and wuxia.
Its like how in Aberrant, tagline "What would you do with the power of God?" unless you built your character in very specific ways a meth head with a pistol stood a fair chance of taking your "god" out. Let alone police or other trained well equipped "baselines".
No different to the way all WoD games are written. Look at a starting nWoD character. Then look at the stat-line for a beat cop. Or a police dog.
Quote from: Kiero;851956No different to the way all WoD games are written. Look at a starting nWoD character. Then look at the stat-line for a beat cop. Or a police dog.
Yeah, the nWoD "nerf" went a bit overboard IMO. I'm OK with a SWAT operative or even a veteran beat cop being a threat, but a regular beat cop?
I've seriously considered just giving starting supernatural PCs 7/5/3 attributes, 13/9/5 skills and 7 merit points, like God and Mark Rein*Hagen meant it to be.
Quote from: Kiero;851956No different to the way all WoD games are written. Look at a starting nWoD character. Then look at the stat-line for a beat cop. Or a police dog.
Yeah, but its strange as Exalted (and Aberrant)'s alleged selling points are how powerful your PC is and how they're such a mover and shaker, a demi god (or god) especially compared to those "other" game were you just a peon.
Quote from: Nexus;851966Yeah, but its strange as Exalted (and Aberrant)'s alleged selling points are how powerful your PC is and how they're such a mover and shaker, a demi god (or god) especially compared to those "other" game were you just a peon.
It's almost that they don't know, or maybe don't trust their players on how to do superhero, fantasy or modern.
It's also why I'm worried about Aeon/Trinity.
Quote from: Nexus;851966Yeah, but its strange as Exalted (and Aberrant)'s alleged selling points are how powerful your PC is and how they're such a mover and shaker, a demi god (or god) especially compared to those "other" game were you just a peon.
I don't have a problem to much with multiple mortals being a threat for an Exalted... Well for a starting Exalted...
A trained Dragon Blooded was said to be a match for 10 men back in the 1st edition. A powerful Dragon Blooded should of course be a threat for even more, but being their Terrestrial Exalted, enough numbers should be able to overwhelm a single Dragon Blooded...
Luckily Dragon Blooded tend to travel in groups and form their own Circles, so you're not likely to get a 20 on one situation...
Now as for the Solars...
A new Starting Solar being threatened by 10 to 20 seasoned Mercenaries who are human? This I don't have a problem with...
However, Solars quickly outstrip the ability of normal mortals to be a threat. Even an army of mortal soldiers without significant magical assistance should no longer be a threat to a moderately powerful Solar.
But this is why things like the Gunshogan of Lookshy exist, as well as Beastmen, Fae, Elementals, and Hungry Ghosts exist... To give enough mooks to threaten Exalted in numbers once the humans just stop sort of existing as anything beyond the people who have to deal with the Gods fighting around them all the time.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;851976It's almost that they don't know, or maybe don't trust their players on how to do superhero, fantasy or modern.
It's also why I'm worried about Aeon/Trinity.
I really think that's a component of it particularly things like the Great Curse and role play directive built into the mechanics (Crafting, I'm looking at you...).
Back to the secrecy thing, some of the lengths are asinine or deliberately provocative like "redacting" the charm names. Really? What's that going to "give away" especially considering most of them are recycled from earlier editions anyway.
And fiddly die mechanics just feel so pointless
QuoteImagine my Twilight has the first Charm in the Power tree, [Redacted] [Redacted] Method, and the next two Charms in the tree, [Redacted] [Redacted] Focus, plus [Redacted]-[Redact]ing Prana, which is used to purchase their upgrades. We'll say my Twilight also has two Charms out of the Momentum tree to get the white Craft XP to pay for their use.*
Intelligence 5, Craft (gimmick) 5, full Excellency for 10 dice, 2 dice for a basic stunt description, 1 WP for a bonus success = 22 dice plus 1 success base. 10 more motes and 1 white Craft XP to reroll 10s and 6s and earn double successes on 7s, 8s, and 9s.
My 22 dice (via online die roller) turn up 13 successes, slightly better than average: 10 10 9 9 9 8 8 8 8 8 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 1.
I add nine more successes from all the 7s, 8s, and 9s I rolled. Then I get to reroll my 10s and 6s, for five more dice, producing: 8 7 4 2 2.
The 8 and 7 are doubled again, so four successes. The total is 26 successes – I subtract 5 for the difficulty of the roll, and 21 remain, 22 since I spent a WP for a success. I will need to roll three times to make an Artifact 50, well below the terminus. I'm likely to finish it and earn a bonus for doing so quickly – not bad for only investing 5 Charms in my Supernal!**
*Buying different Charms with [Redacted]-[Redacted]ing Prana will give the same result without spending white XP, so these two Momentum Charms aren't really necessary, but they're so useful most serious Craft experts will pick them up anyway.
**Per previous asterisk, this could be 3 Charms, easily. Of course, my actual character does not have Craft Supernal, so she's going to have to do this the hard way by actually reaching Essence 3!
Its a matter of different taste but I really don't see what's in fiddly dice games like that or grinding your way up the totem pole for the sake of acquiring more fiddly little rules exceptions to play with (that you're going to use every time you make a roll to build something since its not a major tactical choice). Just give me some simple abilities that add successes or straight dice and be done with it, IMO. If I do decide to use these rulkes (however unlikely) I know I will not be using the Crafts RAW or ever playing a Crafts character in a game that does.
I'm so burned out on the drama I'm done talking about it. Will I run/play it when it drops? Ya. Am I 100% happy with it? Naw. But that's most RPGs. But is it decent enough and fixes some issues with 2E. Yay.
Did they do this totally the wrong way? Yay. But I'll chock this one up to inexperience by the devs.
Quote from: Kiero;851956No different to the way all WoD games are written. Look at a starting nWoD character. Then look at the stat-line for a beat cop. Or a police dog.
I've heard the devs claim they weren't actually intending to have them come out like that but a lot of WW writers don't really play the game so they pull numbers out of their ass. Of course that sounds worse so I have no idea why they admited to that.
Yeah just use the nWoD 2nd edition retainer rules. I make dog retainers two to three. That is a range of four to six dice on things they are good at and two to three dice on things they are bad at. A none combat mortal can easily handle the retainer two dog. Hell with athletics that none combat character can be a human defense shield against retainer three attack dog.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;852086Did they do this totally the wrong way? Yay. But I'll chock this one up to inexperience by the devs.
You don't need direct experience to be able to learn lessons from how other people did it wrong.
I chalk it up to incompetence, plain and simple.
Eh, considering how hard they're defending their stance and actions I don't think they've learned anything. And to be fair, they've been pretty visibly successful so far so time will tell.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;852086I'm so burned out on the drama I'm done talking about it. Will I run/play it when it drops? Ya. Am I 100% happy with it? Naw. But that's most RPGs. But is it decent enough and fixes some issues with 2E. Yay.
Did they do this totally the wrong way? Yay. But I'll chock this one up to inexperience by the devs.
Its functional enough but it is very complex, IMO and it while it "fixes" some things in 2ed it does so in ways I don't care for. I would its largely a success for its target audience as allot of the discussion I've been has been positive.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;852086I'm so burned out on the drama I'm done talking about it. Will I run/play it when it drops? Ya. Am I 100% happy with it? Naw. But that's most RPGs. But is it decent enough and fixes some issues with 2E. Yay.
Did they do this totally the wrong way? Yay. But I'll chock this one up to inexperience by the devs.
Inexperience?
This whole project was a strategic blunder somewhere in between invading Russia without winter supplies and producing a Metallica album without any Kirk Hammett solos on it.
JG
I'm pretty positive about the new social system but this post does point out some valid issues with it
Quote from: DeusExBiotica;19357599I don't believe I've gone into it, no. I'll do so now, but in a somewhat truncated form - I just don't know how to say most of what I have to say without citing line and verse of the leak rules, which I try to avoid.
First off: the core concept of the Social Influence system is that you're not just trying to get someone to take some action ex nihilo. You need to be working from the basis of what they want. That usually means intimacies, but can also mean more general things, via the Bribe and Threaten actions. That core concept is outright brilliant. It's no surprise to me that so many people are excited about this system working from a seed as great as that - but then, lots of people (myself included) were excited about 2E's now-hated Social Combat, too. I think that in people's haste, they're overlooking how the system can actually work.
A lot of that is the kind of stuff I've been griping about this whole time. Ambiguous rules (there are several paragraphs discussing one very specific type of retried action - and really no guidance on whether retrying other actions is even possible or how it would work), sleek-looking mechanical systems which then have these oddly-extensive edge cases (there's a lot of Charm and rules text on an action which has literally no mechanical effect, and a few others which break from the normal Influence rules to just say "and then the GM eyeballs it," rather than using the Intimacies which everything else does), and things which break quickly if they're not used as the writers intended (it is mechanically advantageous to persuade your allies of everything they ever intend to do, and there's no in-setting difference between actions you take on your own and those you're talked into). And then, there's Intimacy debates.
See, your ability to use Intimacies to resist other Influence is really the key balancing factor of the system - it's what keeps you from just getting talked into selling your husband into slavery the moment you hit 0WP, 2E-style. But the way they do that tends to be a bit open for interpretation - and the actual listed example has a PC needing to argue their case for Intimacy interpretation to keep from being persuaded to betray their Circle. Save vs GM, or attack the party. One can only imagine the hurt feelings if the player and GM do not agree about the outcome of that argument.
I want to love Social Influence. I honestly believe its core idea has cracked something which no other RPG, not even Weapons of the Gods, ever did when it came to persuasion mechanics. But sadly, like a lot of brilliantly groundbreaking innovations, the first version has some oversights which I worry will cause a lot of headaches in play.
What is an Intimacy?
Well, when a mummy and daddy love each other very much...
Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;853899What is an Intimacy?
An Intimacy, in Exalted terms, is an aspect of a character's personality codified in mechanical terms. They are divided into Principles (behaviors, beliefs, motivations, etc EX: A vow of Chastity or Keeps Word of Honor) and Ties (connections to more physical things like organizations and people: Devoted Brotherhood or Loves Husband). There are different levels of Intimacy: Defining, Major and Minor and they can affect the difficulty of using Social Influence on the character.
For example a character might have an Intimacy for his wife (Love) that would make it more difficult say for him to be manipulated into betraying her but also more difficult to talk him out of a reckless attempt to save her if she were in danger. So they can cut both ways.
A clever manipulator might even be able to use his Tie to his wife by phrasing their attempt in a way that capitalizes on his love and concern for her even if it does not directly relate to her.
Quote from: One Horse Town;853906Well, when a mummy and daddy love each other very much...
They have a Major or even a Defining Love Tie to each other ;)
Sounds like the PDF is only a matter of days away. I have to say that abstaining from most discussions with the fan base over the last couple of years has really helped ensure that I am excited to see the PDF :)
Quote from: Skywalker;855894Sounds like the PDF is only a matter of days away. I have to say that abstaining from most discussions with the fan base over the last couple of years has really helped ensure that I am excited to see the PDF :)
Don't see why? It isn't like they kept their promises. In fact it appears they made it worst.
The PDF is only a few days from release?
Well, that would explain those 4 horse men that rode down my street this morning
Quote from: Snowman0147;855896Don't see why? It isn't like they kept their promises. In fact it appears they made it worst.
I will form my own view once I get the PDF, unburdened by internet opinions that often prove of little help or worth to me. I have no beef with the current design team despite the delay. I also have a lot of love for Exalted as it stands now and, given that 3e can't weaken that, there is only really upside for me with this release.
Quote from: Nexus;855910The PDF is only a few days from release?
Well, that would explain those 4 horse men that rode down my street this morning
It's had one round with CCP and their changes have been addressed. Seems pretty close given other OP KS at the same stage.
Still, even a year is a matter of days :) The four horsemen don't ride until Far West comes out.
Quote from: Skywalker;855912Still, even a year is a matter of days :) The four horsemen don't ride until Far West comes out.
The possibility of immanent apocalypse cannot be dismissed.
The Cubs are still in contention for the playoffs.
Quote from: Skywalker;855894Sounds like the PDF is only a matter of days away. I have to say that abstaining from most discussions with the fan base over the last couple of years has really helped ensure that I am excited to see the PDF :)
It could only help.
JG
Quote from: Skywalker;855912It's had one round with CCP and their changes have been addressed. Seems pretty close given other OP KS at the same stage.
Still, even a year is a matter of days :) The four horsemen don't ride until Far West comes out.
It's only 2 years overdue!
I think most anyone else who was that late on a project would be actively skewered online, but it goes to show you just how much goodwill Whitewolf/Onyx Path has created in their 2 decades of existence..
That being said, they seem quite active in burning through that left over goodwill. It's not gone yet, but between the Exalted 3rd edition fiasco, the Beast blunder, announcement of Vampire IV edition, and Disappointment with Darkages 20, it's being consumed.
If/when it's out, I will look it over and try to have an unbiased opinion.
I might be surprised at what I find, but I seriously doubt it at this point.
Quote from: Orphan81;856002It's only 2 years overdue!
That's disappointing, but why should I let that diminish what enjoyment I get from the PDF when it hits.
FWIW Far West is 4 years over due, and I feel a lot more burned about how that was handled than Exalted.
Quote from: Orphan81;856002I think most anyone else who was that late on a project would be actively skewered online, but it goes to show you just how much goodwill Whitewolf/Onyx Path has created in their 2 decades of existence.
My goodwill is to Exalted, much more than WW or OP. Its one of my favourite RPGs I am interested to see how its developed.
Quote from: Skywalker;856005That's disappointing, but why should I let that diminish what enjoyment I get from the PDF when it hits.
I never said it should..
However if it's anything like the leak which was released earlier in the year, then it's lost all my interest, which is a shame since I was an Exalted 1st ed fan.
That being said YMMV
Quote from: Orphan81;856006However if it's anything like the leak which was released earlier in the year, then it's lost all my interest, which is a shame since I was an Exalted 1st ed fan.
I am still a 1e fan and use that over 2e (but I am happy to play that too TBH).
I avoided the leak as I find early release and playtest material tends to leave me with a negative impression regardless of how good it is.
Quote from: Orphan81;856006I never said it should..
However if it's anything like the leak which was released earlier in the year, then it's lost all my interest, which is a shame since I was an Exalted 1st ed fan.
That being said YMMV
Its not so much the delays, even the changes (though I'm not happy) that burned me. Its the attitude the Devs had displayed when interacting with the public online.
As a "better late than never" backer, I'm still looking forward to the PDF. The scuttlebutt has the game being even more intricate than 1e, which is a downside, but that doesn't mean that there won't be things I won't like and find a way to add if/when I decide to run it again.
Quote from: Nexus;856010Its not so much the delays, even the changes (though I'm not happy) that burned me. Its the attitude the Devs had displayed when interacting with the public online.
Yeah, its not great, but then I think most first time RPG designers would be better not interacting with the public online at all TBH.
Quote from: Skywalker;856020Yeah, its not great, but then I think most first time RPG designers would be better not interacting with the public online at all TBH.
They've been at this for 20 years, and you're saying that sort of behaviour is OK after all these years???
Um. OK. Not the sort of thing I'll give a pass to, and if their game is anything like their attitude, not for me. (I have not checked anything related to E3.)
None of the design team has much professional history that I am aware of, except maybe Stephenls (and even his is limited). Or are you talking about the White Wolf brand?
Most of them worked on Exalted 2 in some capacity, or so I've been told, and have been long time members of TBP. So they should know how to be professional.
They've been rather poor at communicating their intent. No pass given here.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;856050Most of them worked on Exalted 2 in some capacity, or so I've been told, and have been long time members of TBP. So they should know how to be professional.
They wrote the errata, a handful of PDFs in 2e's last days, and Alchemicals stuff. Again, nothing of the like of Exalted 3e or even a main line print supplement, and over a period much less than 20 years. I wouldn't give much value to forum membership as a measure of professionalism.
I am not looking to make excuses for them. They are grating personalities online, and the fan base surrounding them makes it all dire. My only point is that this is all obvious pretty quickly, especially once you factor in their lack of experience. IMO it's best not to interact with them. Their written material is only better for it.
Stephenls definitely has a history both in Exalted and game writing in general. Holden is/was one of the "Ink Monkeys" and wrote some material for 2nd. hatewheel, I have no idea about. I remember the screen name from before but not much more.
Quote from: Nexus;856060Stephenls definitely has a history both in Exalted and game writing in general. Holden is/was one of the "Ink Monkeys" and wrote some material for 2nd. hatewheel, I have no idea about. I remember the screen name from before but not much more.
IF I remember correctly, hatewheel and Holden worked on the 2e Martial Arts book, among a couple of other projects. I think one of them was on the DB book. Again, these three, if not more, have had years of experience.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;856092IF I remember correctly, hatewheel and Holden worked on the 2e Martial Arts book, among a couple of other projects. I think one of them was on the DB book. Again, these three, if not more, have had years of experience.
They were writing a revised Martial Arts book that never eventuated. Neither were around as far back as Scroll of the Monk and certainly nowhere near as far back as Dragonblooded. I would need to check but Holden first appeared around Alchemicals as a freelance writer and hatewheel even later.
Yeah, no, they are not newbs...so no, no easy-going on them.
Minton was, for example, in the book of the north. Holden has credits in Under the Rose...Stephen LS goes even farther back. And hatewheel is around for a bit as well. On top of that, Rich has been around even longer...and he's the boss...so even if the blunders of some of the newer team members could be forgiven...his can not. He dropped the ball...hard.
That said, i will still give the pdf a fair chance to convince me that the mechanics and stuff is worth playing. I don't think that it will be that good that i can overlook all the BS the team pulled. But hey, surprises happen.
I don't understand. Why can't OPP adopt the Qwixalted design philosophy? Why do they need to spend hundreds of pages on rules?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;856182I don't understand. Why can't OPP adopt the Qwixalted design philosophy? Why do they need to spend hundreds of pages on rules?
They are mainly design for people to buy rpg books, read through it, think what characters they could make, and then not play at all. I wish I was joking, but sadly I am not.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;856182I don't understand. Why can't OPP adopt the Qwixalted design philosophy? Why do they need to spend hundreds of pages on rules?
When the issue has come up in Exalted discussions its been dismissed as contrary to what most of the fan base wants. Simplifying things would run counter to their desires.
Quote from: Nexus;856184When the issue has come up in Exalted discussions its been dismissed as contrary to what most of the fan base wants. Simplifying things would run counter to their desires.
That's my understanding too based on my own group's preferences and those I have observed on forums etc.
Quote from: Nexus;856184When the issue has come up in Exalted discussions its been dismissed as contrary to what most of the fan base wants. Simplifying things would run counter to their desires.
That silent majority fan base that gets bandied around?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;856186That silent majority fan base that gets bandied around?
There's no way of knowing who is in the majority, but I think it's pretty safe to say that there are quite a few people on both sides. Heck, I see the split even in my own group. I have two players who love making really detailed characters, and the more knobs they can fiddle with the better. I have two others that want to keep things simple; they just want to throw some dice and have fun. And then there's me and another guy who are kind of in the middle. We love customization, but at some point adding more options just becomes overwhelming and pointless.
Quote from: Skywalker;856185That's my understanding too based on my own group's preferences and those I have observed on forums etc.
As far as my group goes, its been the opposite but it seems like most of those that wanted a simpler system have adopted conversions so for thg active fanbase that's still on board with Storyteller its hard to believe that's the case.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;856186That silent majority fan base that gets bandied around?
They are part of it but there's are vocal proponents of the ton 'o charms, exception based Storyteller rules or its not "real" Exalted on rpg.net. There have been some that feel they've gone a bit too far too but are okay with it or are willing to take what they can get as long as it works. Some have been turned off. So its not a unanimous positive reaction.
I just wonder how insane its going to get. There are currently 700+ charms in the core, not counting martial arts. Is every splat hardcover going to have that many? There are 5 "core" splats and they're introducing several more plus Exigents who'll have their charm groups as their unique. That's allot of moving parts to balance and juggle.
Chuckle worthy bit as of reversion 7, I think, the length of the Exalted 3rd core is 666 pages. Those end of the world jokes aren't so funny now...
Illustration for "Craftman needs no tools." (http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/4Craftsman_final-small.jpg)
It is nice art, Have to get it that.
Just what Exalted needed, more of the map space being filled. I know they've increased the size of Creation but it seems to be so they can add more of their own shit to it. In 1st it was meant to be large so you could fill in the blanks. Also none of this makes me go "Wow, that is so cool."
Quote from: HoldenI think the North and the West are competing for "most improved Direction" in 3e. West has the most dramatic overhauls, North has the greatest profusion of really, really fucking cool new locales. Things like Mongolian Transylvania, a giant underground prison long ago taken over by its inmates, and a city where the nobility are rumored to have come into possession of an elixir of immortality. (Surely this is unrelated to why said nobles now go about under parasols during the day, and why the tame lynxes of the palace hiss and slink away when they approach.)
Quote from: Ryan L.;856783Just what Exalted needed, more of the map space being filled. I know they've increased the size of Creation but it seems to be so they can add more of their own shit to it. In 1st it was meant to be large so you could fill in the blanks. Also none of this makes me go "Wow, that is so cool."
I really wish I was surprised.
So vampires are a thing now? Don't remember them before. At least the sun isn't a fucking Deathstar any more.
It isn't, right?
So wait...we have Vampires and Abyssal Exalted?
Well, I suppose as "lesser" undead compared to Abyssals it makes sense. We already have Zombies, Hungry Ghosts, and other such things....still just seems a bit weird.
Also it runs into the problem Exalted has always had....Any enemy who is also not an Exalted just sort of falls flat in terms of threat and majesty..
Sure, Vampire Nobles sound scary...until you realize your group consists of 5 fucking demigods of the Sun who could probably kill all of them before breakfast.
I finally sat down and read through the leaked 3e document. It is much as I expected. Generally, every subsystem from 2e has been polished, improved and built up. However, all the subsystems are now integral to play. As a result, the rule set has been improved though its as demanding as ever on the players.
There are some really good parts, such as the Intimacies/Limit/Virtues system , NPCs, dropping of the tick tracker and Excellencies.
There is some stuff that has had a much needed improvement but are still not as great as they could be like combat, social combat and mass combat.
There is some stuff that is painful like the Charms and Evocations. So many charms and so many provide fiddly modifiers that would have been best left to Excellencies.
Overall, I would play it over 2e in a heartbeat. As such, I expect it will be the edition my group plays. However, I still find the uncluttered and leaner 1e to be overall more to my preferences.
1e is lean and uncluttered? I ran it for almost 6 years and that is not an adjective I would use :eek:
Quote from: JamesV;8572311e is lean and uncluttered? I ran it for almost 6 years and that is not an adjective I would use :eek:
In comparison to 2e and 3e, definitely. There are considerably less moving parts, and the "cool" is focussed much more narrowly on two or three mechanics. Its well worth a re-visit, as I think the books hold up well compared to what came after.
I personally liked the idea that dice adders were mostly reserved for combat, and non-combat charms and effects were less about dice enhancement and more about actual effects. I really wished that that had been carried through to 2e and 3e.
Exalted AMA by Holden on subreddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exalted/comments/3o4xdd/ama_out_of_nowhere/
Quote from: Nexus;859423Exalted AMA by Holden on subreddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exalted/comments/3o4xdd/ama_out_of_nowhere/
Hope he brought an asbestos suit.
EDIT: And it's still vague generalities and "I can't talk about that".
Fuck you, Holden.
I can't tell if he was being sarcastic or dead serious about everyone loving the Crafting rules. Unless there's been a major revision its one of the most disputed aspects of the new rules. People are already doing rewrites.
With the level of delusion they all have, it is perfectly possible he was serious. They all are pros at fading out any and all critic.
Btw, i just found the perfect form for all those SJWs and Outrage-Crowders over on rpg.net...take it, fill it out and shut up already :D
(https://scontent-ams2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12144914_10153207327117914_5925214126907200675_n.jpg?oh=cb4e7a6612f90a06363d5b67c2e5d191&oe=5694A266)
Quote from: Warboss Squee;859434Hope he brought an asbestos suit.
EDIT: And it's still vague generalities and "I can't talk about that".
Fuck you, Holden.
What asbestos suit, given that this is the usual tone:)?
QuoteIndon_Dasani 4 points 1 day ago
Is there going to be a nation/organization-running framework, like 2e tried to introduce in Mandate of Heaven and Masters of Jade? I'd love to be able to run an Exalted "Kingmaker" game but the current Mandate system is just so clunky.
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[–]kejakalope 15 points 1 day ago
No, deliberately not. We tried several models for it (including a very streamlined Creation-Ruling Mandate) and realized that the problem with all of them was that it asked players to stop roleplaying in favor of "stepping back" to (at best) play a resource-management sim, or (at worst) to just make a big Bureaucracy roll to smash complex issues of morality and rulership into the dirt. Neither of those ended up being much fun, or resulted in more satisfying storytelling.
There IS support for leadership and running "Kingmaker" style games, but no big dedicated sub-system. It's a matter of canny decision-making and leveraging the right tools to solve the problems of the day.
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[–]Terraneaux 2 points 1 day ago
I appreciate that you put that level of thought into it, and it addresses some of my problems with those systems.
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OTOH, I'm almost tempted to run an Exalted game focusing on leadership, now. With a dedicated sub-system, which will take me all of 30 seconds to swipe from another game;).
Quote from: AsenRG;859566OTOH, I'm almost tempted to run an Exalted game focusing on leadership, now. With a dedicated sub-system, which will take me all of 30 seconds to swipe from another game;).
I wonder what this book called "An Echo, Resounding" sitting in front of me right now is all about...
Quote from: Luca;859575I wonder what this book called "An Echo, Resounding" sitting in front of me right now is all about...
Heard of that here and there.
Oh Exalted how had the mighty had fallen? Sine Nomine swoop in and kick your sorry ass with the Red Tide setting, took your power with the Scarlet Heroes, out perform you in leadership with Echo Resounding, and pretty much been keeping the promises unlike you Exalted.
Quote from: Snowman0147;859604Oh Exalted how had the mighty had fallen? Sine Nomine swoop in and kick your sorry ass with the Red Tide setting, took your power with the Scarlet Heroes, out perform you in leadership with Echo Resounding, and pretty much been keeping the promises unlike you Exalted.
And the
coup de grace, Godbound. Not even complete yet, and still with more promise, and more likely to be in my hands first at this rate.
Quote from: Luca;859575I wonder what this book called "An Echo, Resounding" sitting in front of me right now is all about...
Exactly the thing that Holden considers unnecessary, that's what;).
Quote
No, deliberately not. We tried several models for it (including a very streamlined Creation-Ruling Mandate) and realized that the problem with all of them was that it asked players to stop roleplaying in favor of "stepping back" to (at best) play a resource-management sim, or (at worst) to just make a big Bureaucracy roll to smash complex issues of morality and rulership into the dirt.
All right, who put CRKrueger on the Exalted 3E design team? :)
Quote from: AsenRG;859622Exactly the thing that Holden considers unnecessary, that's what;).
I'm not sure he thinks it's unnecessary...he just wasn't able to build a suitable version for such a subsystem with his skills :P
Quote from: Anglachel;859627I'm not sure he thinks it's unnecessary...he just wasn't able to build a suitable version for such a subsystem with his skills :P
I prefer to take him at his word, as expressed in the AMA.
This just in.
Quote from: New Monday Meeting NotesEx 3 core book – From RichT: Maria still inputting revised Pg XXs after we discovered a page number shift in the book mid-way through due to Maria actually reducing the page count by two pages. Once she’s done we send to CCP for approval of changes- one of their required changes was having all the Pg XXs filled in before they’d give final approval, which is why we’ve been fixated on the XXs. After their OK, backer PDFs will be sent out. Holden also mentioned that his OCD has slowed down his end of things as he has had to restart the process repeatedly to confirm his already assigned XX page numbers."
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?753409-Exalted-Ask-the-Devs-pt3-Merged-x3&p=19464996#post19464996
Holden now has OCD! Of course he does. :rolleyes: And because he's slowing the project down, they're NOT going to give it to someone else who could do the same job, but maybe faster.
I believe some one made a bet in this thread. As in the poster wins some cash if Exalted fails to completed by the end of the year. So you know what I want Holden to do. I want that guy to have some cash.
Rank incompetence from start to finish, assuming of course that it ever reaches its conclusion.
Quote from: Holden's unofficial AMAWe didn't cut a single Charm in the course of trimming wordcount. Added some, in fact.
Sweet Lord...
Yeah one of the most important parts of game design is cutting stuff you like. Often you'll come up with good ideas but if you put every single one of them in it'll just make the game overflow even if every single one of them is good. Seeming to not try to do that at all when they're working with so many charms boggles the mind a good bit.
We should start a betting pool about how many permabans will be handed out relating to Ex3 in the month after its release.
Quote from: Daztur;859919Yeah one of the most important parts of game design is cutting stuff you like. Often you'll come up with good ideas but if you put every single one of them in it'll just make the game overflow even if every single one of them is good. Seeming to not try to do that at all when they're working with so many charms boggles the mind a good bit.
We should start a betting pool about how many permabans will be handed out relating to Ex3 in the month after its release.
Put me down for 20 in the first week.
I wonder what they did cut? Explanations? Fluff? Both of those?
I really hope they did not cut down on explanations (important to understand all the mini-systems) and i am sad to see fluff go out the window...because that is the only thing that i still hope will be good. Oh well...
And he still thinks this work is one to be proud of when it is out?! Really?
I mean even if it is 101% perfect mechanically...all the delays (it's what now, over 2 years late?!), the passive aggressive shit, the "we can't talk about it but it is awesome" shit, the not-informing-backers and being rude on top stuff... and i could go on....will make this work/project at best an OK thing. Something to be proud of looks different... A LOT different. At least in my book.
I never read rulebook fluff, especially if it's poetry or crap like that. Same as I pay very little attention to the art, unless it's bad.
Quote from: Daztur;859919We should start a betting pool about how many permabans will be handed out relating to Ex3 in the month after its release.
That's going to be hard to track, so I'm not participating.
"Editor's Note: I don't exist."
-HoL
Quote from: Warboss Squee;859940Put me down for 20 in the first week.
It depends allot of how many of non hardcore fans are left by the time the thing actually drops. If the lose Isator Levie, for instance, they done fucked up and all bets are off.
Quote from: Nexus;860041It depends allot of how many of non hardcore fans are left by the time the thing actually drops. If the lose Isator Levie, for instance, they done fucked up and all bets are off.
Isn't Jon Chung topic banned on all things Exalted?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;860044Isn't Jon Chung topic banned on all things Exalted?
IIRC, yes. IIRC again, it was for the classic crime of edition warring (asking questions and making comparisons)?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;860044Isn't Jon Chung topic banned on all things Exalted?
Oh yeah, pretty early on. He questioned the awesome.
Quote from: Holden;19471764Not actually true.
There was never a Bureaucracy sub-system.
There were never plans for there to be one.
Jenna wrote one (1) Charm which referenced a "Begin Project" action, which, in her mind, was something storytellers could understand based on the basic resolution actions of the rules, as interpreted by 2e's very formal rules-language. Basically it's like if she said this Charm triggers off a "Wake Up" action instead of "this Charm activates when the character awakens from sleep." All it meant was, you use this Charm when you start a project.
This was an edition where being unconscious was a formal action you took every 5 seconds.
Because of the extreme formality of 2e's rules-structure, everyone went looking for the formal Begin Project action that nobody ever intended to write or thought there was any need to write. And for years after, they pined for that missing Bureaucracy system that someone wrote, but man, it musta got cut.
It not only never existed, it was never supposed to exist. It sure never got cut. It never got CONCEPTUALIZED. If it had, Neph would have had old drafts or ideas and we would not have had to start from scratch when we did the CRM in response to popular demand for Masters of Jade. Like a lot of stuff in 2e, banging that system together convinced me in retrospect that it was servicing a nonexistent need and was an active detriment to the game, because it pulled the scope way the hell away from the game's larger-than-life heroes. I mean, it contained rules for easily resolving a global trade war between the Guild and the Realm, which is like... Jesus Christ, that's a whole chronicle right there, or should be.
Was there any edition of Exalted that was, even at some point in the lifespan, NOT a clusterfuck?
Quote from: Nexus;860050Was there any edition of Exalted that was, even at some point in the lifespan, NOT a clusterfuck?
So far, 1e is the least clusterfucky. Not exactly a cakewalk, but nothing someone used to running RIFTS couldn't handle. :)
Quote from: JamesV;860052So far, 1e is the least clusterfucky. Not exactly a cakewalk, but nothing someone used to running RIFTS couldn't handle. :)
I think that most of 2nds cluster fuckery came from the shitty copy pasta early on and the hack attempts to address it later on.
All of this just keeps bringing back how 1st ed was the superior model. I can't understand why the decision to not just clean up 1st ed and make it more streamlined wasn't instituted.
Quote from: Orphan81;860195All of this just keeps bringing back how 1st ed was the superior model. I can't understand why the decision to not just clean up 1st ed and make it more streamlined wasn't instituted.
That would be my preference (and I have done most of that through house rules already). Much of the first half of 1e holds up well but could easily be streamlined.
Oddly, 50% of the required streamlining was made in 2e, such as excellencies, static defences, and a unified mental influence mechanic. However, 2e, then added 500% more waffle on top of that.
I'd say allot of the "real points" to Exalted seem to have changed despite all; the callbacks to the good old days too. Its kind of like Ronald Regan is practically deified by some Republicans but would be considered to moderate or even "Leftist" by much of the parties' current standards.
Quote from: Orphan81;860195All of this just keeps bringing back how 1st ed was the superior model. I can't understand why the decision to not just clean up 1st ed and make it more streamlined wasn't instituted.
Because it wasn't superiour. It had the same problem that Werewolf did: Combat. The Perfect Defenses were a hassle on their own, and there were several charms that simply broke the game.
And which didn't get fixed in 2e. All 2e really did was add more stuff to an already broken mess of a game and made it worse.
Now, if you were able to hand wave all the problems away in 1e, more power to you, but there was obviously enough of a backlash to get a second edition going, otherwise, they wouldn't have tried to 'fix' things.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;860056I think that most of 2nds cluster fuckery came from the shitty copy pasta early on and the hack attempts to address it later on.
I'm not sure if "copy pasta" is a typo or intentional.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;860214I'm not sure if "copy pasta" is a typo or intentional.
JG
"copy pasta" was a slang term so I think its intentional.
It was.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;860212Because it wasn't superiour. It had the same problem that Werewolf did: Combat. The Perfect Defenses were a hassle on their own, and there were several charms that simply broke the game.
Perfect Defenses aren't just a hassle, they suffer from a pretty fundamental design flaw: they are
boring. Something which exists only to negate and shut down more active options is awful game design.
To me Perfect Defenses always seemed to be mostly a patch for Storyteller's inherent lethality. It is a system original designed for Horror and Dark Urban Fantasy where combat generally should be nasty brutish and short.
A hasty patch that brought some unfortunate repercussions such as a sort of arms race on the offensive end as attack and damage charms became more and more lethal to make sure that when something eventually landed it was worth it. So you ended up with combat that was "Missile Tag", fragile characters firing Insta-Kills that had to be absolutely stopped because otherwise the fight was over.
In fairness, I had the impression that much of the longing for 1e was more about the fluff and mood than the mechanics. Though I do feel they were generally cleaner and it was easier to work around the issues than the later improved versions in 2nd.
I can understand that nostalgia. The 1e core and Scavenger Sons is what really got us into Exalted. Of course, everyone seems to have slightly different ideas about what was so appealing, is convinced their impression and preferences are absolutely "Exalted as it was Meant To Be" and everything else is heresy that is ruining the game or is, at best, misguided nonsense so we get Exalted fandom as it stands.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;860212Because it wasn't superiour. It had the same problem that Werewolf did: Combat. The Perfect Defenses were a hassle on their own, and there were several charms that simply broke the game.
And which didn't get fixed in 2e. All 2e really did was add more stuff to an already broken mess of a game and made it worse.
Now, if you were able to hand wave all the problems away in 1e, more power to you, but there was obviously enough of a backlash to get a second edition going, otherwise, they wouldn't have tried to 'fix' things.
Completely disagree with you here. 1e IS the best edition of the game with the best rules. 2nd Edition didn't seek to try and clean up 1e's mistakes, it decided it wanted to build a new system completely from the ground up that was even more flawed from the get go.
All the "Fixes" that went into it just made it worse.
1st edition wasn't as concerned with making sure the Exalted had Charms which could accurately simulate a battle with a Primordial. It was a little more loosey goosey with the rules.
2nd and 3rd ed, is trying to model things like 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons, making sure there is a rule for every single situation that pops up...intricate and detailed rules which just make your eyes glaze over.
I ran multiple, successful 1e campaigns. Some of them blew up because of the rules, and some of them I had to keep a steady hand along with my players to avoid the rules landmines, but it was a completely workable and fun system...
Every 2nd edition game I started petered out by the 4th session. It just wasn't as fun. The super focus on making extended rules for every situation, and reworking combat entirely and adding more complexity just made the game worse. The rules got in the way of the game rather than enhancing it.
3rd seems to be following this pattern.
So I repeat...1e is the best version of the Exalted rules and it really makes me wonder why they didn't bother trying to clean those up to make a new edition of Exalted...rather than re-inventing the wheel both times now.
Edit: "DV" and "The BattleWheel" were two of the worst innovations Whitewolf came up with. Showing up in Scion as well...No matter how much the "Battle Wheel" tried to speed up combat, all it did was bog it down and slow it down by making everything more complicated... "wait how much does this weapon add or take away from my speed? How much does this action effect my speed? how much does this power effect my speed?" where DV made it far to easy for characters to simply be flat out IMPOSSIBLE to be hit.
Rolled Defenses added an extra roll, but at least added a luck mechanic where a less accurate character still had a chance of hitting a target. If you wanted to build an enemy who could hit a high DV character it meant they would just destroy everyone else in the party.
Whoa, I didn't expect this to happen.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?753409-Exalted-Ask-the-Devs-pt3-Merged-x3&p=19477230#post19477230
Quote from: Orphan81;860291Completely disagree with you here. 1e IS the best edition of the game with the best rules. 2nd Edition didn't seek to try and clean up 1e's mistakes, it decided it wanted to build a new system completely from the ground up that was even more flawed from the get go.
All the "Fixes" that went into it just made it worse.
1st edition wasn't as concerned with making sure the Exalted had Charms which could accurately simulate a battle with a Primordial. It was a little more loosey goosey with the rules.
2nd and 3rd ed, is trying to model things like 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons, making sure there is a rule for every single situation that pops up...intricate and detailed rules which just make your eyes glaze over.
I ran multiple, successful 1e campaigns. Some of them blew up because of the rules, and some of them I had to keep a steady hand along with my players to avoid the rules landmines, but it was a completely workable and fun system...
Every 2nd edition game I started petered out by the 4th session. It just wasn't as fun. The super focus on making extended rules for every situation, and reworking combat entirely and adding more complexity just made the game worse. The rules got in the way of the game rather than enhancing it.
3rd seems to be following this pattern.
So I repeat...1e is the best version of the Exalted rules and it really makes me wonder why they didn't bother trying to clean those up to make a new edition of Exalted...rather than re-inventing the wheel both times now.
Edit: "DV" and "The BattleWheel" were two of the worst innovations Whitewolf came up with. Showing up in Scion as well...No matter how much the "Battle Wheel" tried to speed up combat, all it did was bog it down and slow it down by making everything more complicated... "wait how much does this weapon add or take away from my speed? How much does this action effect my speed? how much does this power effect my speed?" where DV made it far to easy for characters to simply be flat out IMPOSSIBLE to be hit.
Rolled Defenses added an extra roll, but at least added a luck mechanic where a less accurate character still had a chance of hitting a target. If you wanted to build an enemy who could hit a high DV character it meant they would just destroy everyone else in the party.
And you had no problem with the Perfect Defenses? You must be the only person in all of creation who didn't try and handwave them in some way.
Quote from: Nexus;860318Whoa, I didn't expect this to happen.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?753409-Exalted-Ask-the-Devs-pt3-Merged-x3&p=19477230#post19477230
Quote from: Nexus;860041It depends allot of how many of non hardcore fans are left by the time the thing actually drops. If the lose Isator Levie, for instance, they done fucked up and all bets are off.
All bets are now off.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;860322And you had no problem with the Perfect Defenses? You must be the only person in all of creation who didn't try and handwave them in some way.
All bets are now off.
Man. It's going to be awful quiet in an Exalted thread without his constant dick riding.
Nah, there are enough selfimportant, selfappointed exalted experts left who can go on and on and on and on...about every little detail and how you/OPP/any other poster got it wrong and/or how it would be better/cooler/more appropriate if done their way... so the threads about Ex3e will survive without one of those special Exalted-snowflake-assholes :D
Oh and...anyone else had to laugh out loud at this little gem from Holden?
QuoteI have become intensely wary of rules-for-the-sake-of-rules as time has gone on and I've gotten more experience with game design. Rules need to serve a purpose that is meaningful and necessary.
Really? That from Mr. "Game-Designer" of EX3e where everything and your grandmother is forced into a rule ... or, this being Exalted, a rules exception? LOL
Unintentional comedy is still the best one :D
Quote from: Anglachel;860351Really? That from Mr. "Game-Designer" of EX3e where everything and your grandmother is forced into a rule ... or, this being Exalted, a rules exception? LOL
Unintentional comedy is still the best one :D
Yeah, that was definitely cute.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;860322And you had no problem with the Perfect Defenses? You must be the only person in all of creation who didn't try and handwave them in some way.
Never had a problem with Perfect Defenses in 1e, never had to worry about them. The concept of "Paranoia Combat" was really a function of 2e and not 1e. Perfect Defenses ENHANCED my campaigns not took away from it.
I also think you're generalization of everyone in creation 'hand waiving' them is off.
I did end up house ruling that particularly high essence Dragon Blooded could in fact use their Perfect Defenses against charm enhanced and magical attacks like a Celestial, but this was only for DB's of around Essence 4.
I ran several successful long term Exalted Campaigns from when it was released up to about 2006/7 ish...
As I said before...yes my first couple campaigns did reach a point where the rules simply exploded....the right combination of Charms/artifacts making the PC's truly invincible... and those were learning experiences. My next campaigns made a note to avoid those combinations of abilities...Perfect Defenses were never a problem.
When Exalted Power Combat was released in the 1e Player Guide it made the system even better, and also solved the problem of the character with a million soak dice thanks to making minimum damage equal to Essence Rating.
Yes Exalted 1e was highly flawed, but it's the least flawed and best running of the three Exalteds. Again, I don't understand why that particular system wasn't fixed.... Re-inventing the wheel twice now has only made things far, far worse.
When I read Exalted threads over TBP I feel like I must have been playing some alternate version that fell through a wormhole or something. Their experience bear that little resemblance to mine.
Quote from: Nexus;860378When I read Exalted threads over TBP I feel like I must have been playing some alternate version that fell through a wormhole or something. Their experience bear that little resemblance to mine.
I literally started every session by playing the opening music from "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys" with a revised narration..
"This is the story of a time long ago, a time of Myth and Legend.
Where the Dragonblood Empire was petty and cruel, and plagued mankind with suffering.
Only one force could challenge their power, the Solar Exalted..
The Solars possessed a strength the world had never seen before, a strength only surpassed by their Heroism...
Now, where ever there was danger, where ever there was suffering or peril, there would be, the Solar Exalted.."Seriously, that is how pumped my players were to be playing Mythic Heroes in a Greco-Roman Anime Fantasy game.... the idea of playing selfish amoral anti-heroes never crossed their minds. Even when we added Abyssals and Lunars to the party, they still kept with the idea they were actually trying to make creation a better place.
Quote from: Anglachel;860351Nah, there are enough selfimportant, selfappointed exalted experts left who can go on and on and on and on...about every little detail and how you/OPP/any other poster got it wrong and/or how it would be better/cooler/more appropriate if done their way... so the threads about Ex3e will survive without one of those special Exalted-snowflake-assholes :D
True. There's more than enough douchebag chomping at the bit to tell anyone doing something different from them they're "Doing it wrong!"
Edit: Or even better the patronizing passive aggressive "Oh you can that if you want. Its incredibly lame stupid and wrong but but by all means do it."
Quote from: Nexus;860378When I read Exalted threads over TBP I feel like I must have been playing some alternate version that fell through a wormhole or something. Their experience bear that little resemblance to mine.
Just the exalted threads?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;860382Just the exalted threads?
True but have to narrow things down or we'll be here all day. :D
You know what? Fuck it I want to do a play test using my system to do a Exalted game in this forum. I will GM and I know the setting (still rusty, but I can get books). So who wants to join since this is far easier than what 3rd edition is going to be.
Though my experience is limited to second edition.
Quote from: Snowman0147;860543You know what? Fuck it I want to do a play test using my system to do a Exalted game in this forum. I will GM and I know the setting (still rusty, but I can get books). So who wants to join since this is far easier than what 3rd edition is going to be.
Though my experience is limited to second edition.
I don't have time to play but I wouldn't mind lurking.
Quote from: Snowman0147;860543You know what? Fuck it I want to do a play test using my system to do a Exalted game in this forum. I will GM and I know the setting (still rusty, but I can get books). So who wants to join since this is far easier than what 3rd edition is going to be.
Though my experience is limited to second edition.
I'm down.
What's the basic set-up of your system Snowman0147?
I'm more convinced than ever that "Ask the Devs" is more about their ego than anything else.
Basic set up is this. Think up a super rules lite version of Dark Heresy without fate points. So basically your average percentage dice game with d10 to handle damage. Yes if you roll a ten the die does explode.
The killer app (as Pundit would put it) is the Asset system. You only got so many, but they are the source of your powers. They do three things. Bypass which can be done once per event can give auto success. Effect allows you to spend heroic points, in this case motes, to do effects you normally can't do. Last is restore which allows you to recover more motes while in rest if you are doing something within the them of the asset.
A example of this is a dawn caste exalted. Once in battle he can bypass a attack roll to just automatically hit the enemy. Think something of a perfect attack, but the defender can still do something about it. Effects are naturally exalted charms. Last instead of resting the dawn exalted chooses to practice sword fighting to recover more motes.
Now each asset has a rank. Ranks improve the assets. In bypass you get a degree of success per rank. In effects your cost to use effects get reduce per rank in that asset. Example would be say the dawn caste used a ten mote charm and has rank five in the asset. That charm now cost five instead of ten. Restore follows the same way. You gain motes equal to your rank per hour while doing that asset activity during rest. So two hours of sword fighting practice will give that dawn caste ten motes back if his sword asset is rank five.
Does that help? I try to make my system easy as possible to understand and rules light as I can get it.
Quote from: Orphan81;860291Edit: "DV" and "The BattleWheel" were two of the worst innovations Whitewolf came up with.
Neither of them is a White Wolf innovation, actually:).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;860322All bets are now off.
I find I'm suddenly lacking popcorn.
Quote from: Nexus;860381Edit: Or even better the patronizing passive aggressive "Oh you can that if you want. Its incredibly lame stupid and wrong but but by all means do it."
Well, within TBP rules, that's the closest you can get to "your ideas suck so hard I want to stay away from them in order to avoid the vacuum sucking me in, too":D.
Quote from: Snowman0147;860543You know what? Fuck it I want to do a play test using my system to do a Exalted game in this forum. I will GM and I know the setting (still rusty, but I can get books). So who wants to join since this is far easier than what 3rd edition is going to be.
Though my experience is limited to second edition.
Quote from: Snowman0147;860783Basic set up is this. Think up a super rules lite version of Dark Heresy without fate points. So basically your average percentage dice game with d10 to handle damage. Yes if you roll a ten the die does explode.
The killer app (as Pundit would put it) is the Asset system. You only got so many, but they are the source of your powers. They do three things. Bypass which can be done once per event can give auto success. Effect allows you to spend heroic points, in this case motes, to do effects you normally can't do. Last is restore which allows you to recover more motes while in rest if you are doing something within the them of the asset.
A example of this is a dawn caste exalted. Once in battle he can bypass a attack roll to just automatically hit the enemy. Think something of a perfect attack, but the defender can still do something about it. Effects are naturally exalted charms. Last instead of resting the dawn exalted chooses to practice sword fighting to recover more motes.
Now each asset has a rank. Ranks improve the assets. In bypass you get a degree of success per rank. In effects your cost to use effects get reduce per rank in that asset. Example would be say the dawn caste used a ten mote charm and has rank five in the asset. That charm now cost five instead of ten. Restore follows the same way. You gain motes equal to your rank per hour while doing that asset activity during rest. So two hours of sword fighting practice will give that dawn caste ten motes back if his sword asset is rank five.
Does that help? I try to make my system easy as possible to understand and rules light as I can get it.
Does the local forum even have a dice-roller? Otherwise, I can't tell much from this info, but it's almost guaranteed to be lighter than Ex3.
Admittedly, I am considering writing up all my Exalted adaptations in English and releasing them on my blog:D!
Quote from: Nexus;860768I'm more convinced than ever that "Ask the Devs" is more about their ego than anything else.
No, no the ego trip is the entirety of the project. Just look at the comments the Devs made during the Kickstarter.
You didn't imagine that crack of earth shattering thunder and those horsemen riding across the sky...
Quote from: RichT, MMM, 18.10.2015 All corrections that we have found so far have been input. Maria is creating the backer PDF. We expect to send that out this week. We will have instruction in Updates for backers, but I do want to mention here that we'll only be looking for errata from backers coming to us through the "Contact Me" button next to my picture on the KS page, and we can't accept attachments or links in the messages. This is the method we've determined to be the most efficient for a project this huge as well as most likely to be something we can collate and implement without missing messages.
2015: The Year of Butthurt
I think rolld20 would be a good site to witness rolls.
Quote from: Nexus;860867You didn't imagine that crack of earth shattering thunder and those horsemen riding across the sky...
Waiting until you have completed layout seems the perfect time to hand out your manuscript to backers and ask them to respond with any errors they have found.
Quote from: James Gillen;8608752015: The Year of Butthurt
Do you mean me?
Quote from: Nexus;860880Do you mean me?
No, I just find your quote deeply appropriate to this particular subject.
jg
Quote from: James Gillen;860881No, I just find your quote deeply appropriate to this particular subject.
jg
Oh good, I am butthurt about some thingsbut I've been trying to keep it under control in public :D
Awesome to finally have something like a solid date for the PDF.
Quote from: Baulderstone;860879Waiting until you have completed layout seems the perfect time to hand out your manuscript to backers and ask them to respond with any errors they have found.
Its going to be interesting to see a wider reaction though there is some bias since pre order backers are probably pretty hardcore fans to begin with.
Quote from: Snowman0147;860878I think rolld20 would be a good site to witness rolls.
Scratch that. Roll20 won't work on iPhone. So let's just use wizard dice roller instead.
Did someone actually ask the Devs' permission and approval to publicly discuss the backer PDF once they get it? WTF?
What? Show me a link.
Quote from: Snowman0147;860903What? Show me a link.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?753409-Exalted-Ask-the-Devs-pt3-Merged-x3&p=19486005#post19486005
Quote from: Wuse_Major;19486005Holden, once the backer pdf drops, is there anything you'd rather us not discuss? Is it ok to directly quote a paragraph or two from the text as long as we don't get out of hand or should we confine ourselves to talking about the text without quoting?
I ask because I'm probably going try to contribute info to threads asking for spoilers and I'd rather not do anything wrong, especially given recent events.
So it's only just over 2 years late of expected delivery, well at least that is better than far west. I wonder what the final product is going to look like.
Quote from: Orphan81;860919So it's only just over 2 years late of expected delivery, well at least that is better than far west. I wonder what the final product is going to look like.
As I've pointed out before and as much as I hate to defend Sarka, I've actually seen a not insignificant amount of Farwest. And actually liked what I saw. Which is a shame because it's never going to be released at this point.
Quote from: Snowman0147;860783"Please don't use the word "trigger" I find it problematic."
"Please don't use the word "problematic". It triggers me."
Damn I love your quote.
It is not mine really. I believe Nexus had it first and I took it as my own sig.
Quote from: Nexus;860890Its going to be interesting to see a wider reaction though there is some bias since pre order backers are probably pretty hardcore fans to begin with.
I don't doubt my own objectivity on the matter, I doubt whether I'm going to share my opinion on a forum the developers read;).
I have the PDF. Goddam its pretty.
Looks a lot like the leaked document TBH.
Quote from: Skywalker;861275I have the PDF. Goddam its pretty.
(http://enklave-23.de/EX3.png)
I expected it would be pretty. Looks like that came through.
QuoteLooks a lot like the leaked document TBH.
I'm going to watch comparisons with great interest. I've heard Evocations were cut down.
TBP heard the E3 pdf was and was all like.... (http://simg4.gelbooru.com//images/d0/46/d046ff3b6a1346372cbbc6da1f590455.gif?2889839)
:D
I can't fault them the excitement though. Its been a long time coming and some of them spend a hefty wad on it.
Evocations are somewhat cut down, but seem mostly extant.
Quote from: Skywalker;861275Looks a lot like the leaked document TBH.
Are you really surprised by that?
Their attempts at telling the world that "No, the final Ex 3e will be totally different than what was leaked, we had considerable changes since then" was really pitiful. I thought no one bought that...
Quote from: Anglachel;861282Are you really surprised by that?
No. But it seemed worth stating for others.
Quote from: Anglachel;861282Their attempts at telling the world that "No, the final Ex 3e will be totally different than what was leaked, we had considerable changes since then" was really pitiful. I thought no one bought that...
I wonder how many of the faithful will recall those attempts if it turns out to be the case
Got my copy. The layout reminds me of the Legends of the Five Rings 4E books. This is a good thing.
How big did the final product come out?
Damn, drivethru crashed for a bit.
There is a bit of a debacle on the art going on. It looks like one artist dropped out, and a replacement artist (who uses the poses art) was brought in. Unfortunately, that artist seems to have used art from other places :rolleyes:
Ah well, hopefully it can be fixed before print, which will be good given the poser art (though in the minority) is of poor quality.
Quote from: Skywalker;861301There is a bit of a debacle on the art going on. It looks like one artist dropped out, and a replacement artist (who uses the poses art) was brought in. Unfortunately, that artist seems to have used art from other places :rolleyes:
Ah well, hopefully it can be fixed before print, which will be good given the poser art (though in the minority) is of poor quality.
Good grief...
Quote from: Nexus;861304Good grief...
Nothing that time can't fix... :D
Geez, they managed to make Lissome Avid Engineer look evil :D
sblock for space
Spoiler
(http://enklave-23.de/EX3-2.png)
Hey the Alchemical is still sporting the thong.
OMG the soggy knees!
Eh, after glancing through it, can't say I am a fan of the artwork. Doesn't seem Exalted to me. Still like the layout though.
Well, here's some stats
Quote from: Rich H;194944972) At 659 pages I'm not sure how practical the hard copy will be to read and/or refer to so wish they'd have kept the size down. You'll be able to spot the Exalted hardcopy core book owners at conventions though; they'll all have biceps the size of the Blessed Isle!
3) There's nigh on 250 pages of charms, martial arts and sorcery mechanics.
Quote from: Nexus;861316Well, here's some stats
Rebuilt from the ground up, huh?
Its really petty of me but after some of the crap flung at Hot Chicks by that ground that E3 turned up poser art of a feast of Schadenfreude.
(http://i.imgur.com/ZRB1zKv.jpg)
Edit: And yes, there is griping about the girl being "Mostly naked".
Quote from: Gizmit;19494618To repost what I said Backstage:
Woman in the back just emigrated from GURPS 4th edition's Magic book, and the woman hiding under the cakes is scared that she's going to spend 20 minutes calculating one second of combat.
When in doubt, take a cheap shot at another system.
Particularly ironic considering E3 "speedy" combat system.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;861317Rebuilt from the ground up, huh?
And apparently the layout is good, nice even but its not the Second Coming that's going to redefine rpg book layout for all time like it was hyped.
Does anyone know whether this poster (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768590-Exalted-3rd-Edition-Discussion-Thread&p=19494728#post19494728) has an account here?
Quote from: Nexus;861323And apparently the layout is good, nice even but its not the Second Coming that's going to redefine rpg book layout for all time like it was hyped.
To bad it wasn't bookmarked. X)
The Backer PDF discussion thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768590-Exalted-3rd-Edition-Discussion-Thread)
Blimey, a quick shufty at that thread brings home just how much OP (formally WW) own RPGnet.
Quote from: One Horse Town;861329Blimey, a quick shufty at that thread brings home just how much OP (formally WW) own RPGnet.
I do wonder just how many of the mods work or freelance for OP.
RE: The now infamous art on page 153.
Looks like the cover of one of those super sleazy fetish ebooks you can buy at Amazon.com for buck*. Proposed title, Cakeslut Discipline!
*Not that I've ever bought one. Or several.
There's lots of pretty in the book too:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/5kywalker/New%20Picture_zpsvwstfb6g.png)
The art seems okay. Even the Poser one, honestly, but its not my vision of Exalted. But generally, I don't care that much about art one way or another.
Someone posted charm trees for a few abilities.
Holy shit it's convoluted.
Quote from: Skywalker;861351There's lots of pretty in the book too,
I totally agree, it's just the eyesores tend to stick out. As a matter of fact, I think that spread was a strong start. Ever heard of Kowloon Walled City? The piece reminds me of the pictures I've seen of that place, turned up to 11. That is very Exalted.
Quote from: Nexus;861343I do wonder just how many of the mods work or freelance for OP.
I've been callin' that place the Unofficial Official White Wolf Forums for years. And I think the answer is all of them.
Man, there is no forgiving bad art over there
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768604-Exalted-3e-Laugh-at-bad-(and-illegal)-art-from-the-Exalted-pdf
So someone maxe a starting character using the backer pdf and the end result?
A character that would have easily fit into a 2nd edition game with zero conversion.
Didn't they learn this shit from Hunter: The Vigil? Seriously wtf is with these guys picking up stolen art? For that matter why in the did they use poser art? Poser never looks good. Can't even believe this shit.
In fairness, here's the good art thread.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768611-Show-us-awesome-Exalted-3-art-pretty-please!
I know I've beat this drum allot in the past but you gotta love how the pic of the Dawn sig fighting in nothing but a banana hammock is awesome and good beefcake (and for the record I've got nothing against the picture. Equal opportunity eye candy, I say) but the picture of the Empress showing some leg (like she was sitting in a slitted gown, not a Sharon Stone upskirt) or the "half naked" (dressed in clothes that you'd see on any beach or summer afternoon in a warm area) drew vehement protests (the Empress picture to the extent they did a piss poor edit which is hated and now people are saying they had no problem with the original...).
Quote from: Warboss Squee;861362So someone maxe a starting character using the backer pdf and the end result?
A character that would have easily fit into a 2nd edition game with zero conversion.
So all the claims of "rebuilt from the ground up" were total bullshit as we all knew all along.
It amazes me that there's complaints that people are focusing on the art instead of the system. Of course they are. You can see the art immediately. The system is hundreds of pages of rules and rules exceptions. The PDFs were just sent out yesterday afternoon.
No one's digested that hunk of RAW yet unless they read the leak (Which has gone from being almost totally different to a an important sentence changed here and there) which No True Fan did, of course. It never fails the default response to criticism of Exalted is find some way to blame it on the fanbase. Its like a religion Any failings can be put on the adherents for being lax in their devotion or weak in faith*.
*Or the false prophets the taught the heresy of a previous Edition.
Quote from: Kiero;861402So all the claims of "rebuilt from the ground up" were total bullshit as we all knew all along.
The claims of extensive changes between the last leak and final document are looking dubious too.
Quote from: Kiero;861402So all the claims of "rebuilt from the ground up" were total bullshit as we all knew all along.
The claims of extensive changes between the last leak and final document are looking dubious too.
I can't believe they actually resorted to Poser art to fill the gaps. You usually don't see that shit outside of zero-budget small press stuff and deeply pathetic CGI porn.
I also can't believe they went for the "naked woman cowering under the cakes" artwork. Regardless of how you feel about the recurring arguments about sexism/cheesecake in gaming artwork, it should be obvious to everyone that the Exalted fanbase are not keen on it - or at least the Exalted fanbase as represented on RPG.net, and you don't really want to be alienating one of your loudest and most visible groups of advocates for your game, especially when there's already controversy about the Kickstarter being late.
"Know Your Audience" is a basic rule of putting out creative work commercially, and usually OP are really good at that, so it's genuinely surprising to me that they've misjudged the art that badly. Then again, so far as I can make out the Exalted team seem to be the dysfunctional underachievers of the OP family compared to what their other creative groups are putting out.
Considering how much they courted (and still do) the Social Justice crowd, acting surprised when this sort of thing happens comes across as incredibly naïve at best, straight disingenuous at worst.
You climbed on the tiger when it suited you so enjoy the ride.
In fairness most of the complaints seem to be about the editing job (which is poor) than the content itself. The "naked" girl under the table is amusing as her clothes seem to get skimpier each time someone describes it but she's wearing essentially the same outfit as the Master of Jade piece the picture seems based on.
And considerably more than Banana Hammock Barbarian the Exhibitionist Dawn.
Quote from: squidheadjax;19497480The first reaction I got, when showing it around, was "ugly and sexist", actually. It was the apparent partial sideboob (is there a better term for that) and the odd way the clothing generated it making it seem male-gazey, with the subject being FtM kinda making it worse. It wasn't my first interpretation but now I can't un-see the way she read the details.
Interesting reaction to Prince Diamond being on the placeholder cover.
Quote from: Nexus;861483Interesting reaction to Prince Diamond being on the placeholder cover.
I can't stop laughing. I might make myself sick at this point.
It's just plain ugly. As far as covers go it isn't evocative in any way and I despise the blurred art style going on there. Tpose makes it look like the character is falling after being struck instead of standing in glory or whatever. I only I assume the glory part because I know what the Solar Exalted are the shining that's going on around the head.
There are several people acting as apologists for the first developers and it's sad even if it was expected. I'm going to run a free game of it online. I know I will, but I can't help shake my head at some of this.
Quote from: Ryan L.;861521It's just plain ugly. As far as covers go it isn't evocative in any way and I despise the blurred art style going on there. Tpose makes it look like the character is falling after being struck instead of standing in glory or whatever. I only I assume the glory part because I know what the Solar Exalted are the shining that's going on around the head.
There are several people acting as apologists for the first developers and it's sad even if it was expected. I'm going to run a free game of it online. I know I will, but I can't help shake my head at some of this.
If you do, please post a link. I'd love to follow along and see how it works.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;861522If you do, please post a link. I'd love to follow along and see how it works.
No problem.
The item images in the back are atrocious. I don't know where the one person got 40% bad but I've seen little that's appealing in the art.
It's nice that more than one martial art is in the book and is part of the reason that the number of charm pages has bloomed. Though I dread actually delving into that part of the book.
Good luck because you will need it. I have a feeling it is going to be shit.
Holy rewrite Batman!
Ma-Ha-Suchi is back, with 100% less problematic or triggering content.
Quote from: Ryan L.;861524No problem.
The item images in the back are atrocious. I don't know where the one person got 40% bad but I've seen little that's appealing in the art.
It's nice that more than one martial art is in the book and is part of the reason that the number of charm pages has bloomed. Though I dread actually delving into that part of the book.
I'd be interested in lurking too
Quote from: Warboss Squee;861516I can't stop laughing. I might make myself sick at this point.
"Quote Originally Posted by taichara View Post
Whereas I and folks I've shown it to think it's amazing. And seriously, if that's somehow a "sexist" image (because there's flesh at all? seriously, that's somehow terrible sideboob? I have to stare to even notice) then we're developing problems of massive knee-jerk levels.
Are any of the people you've shown it to trans men?
Because I think they are probably the only ones whose opinions are relevant here. "
Quote from: Nexus;861453Considering how much they courted (and still do) the Social Justice crowd, acting surprised when this sort of thing happens comes across as incredibly naïve at best, straight disingenuous at worst.
You climbed on the tiger when it suited you so enjoy the ride.
In fairness most of the complaints seem to be about the editing job (which is poor) than the content itself. The "naked" girl under the table is amusing as her clothes seem to get skimpier each time someone describes it but she's wearing essentially the same outfit as the Master of Jade piece the picture seems based on.
And considerably more than Banana Hammock Barbarian the Exhibitionist Dawn.
Banana Hammock Exhibitionist Display!
And I know that if this image
(http://i.imgur.com/W0C37dx.jpg)
With the style, same composition, same expressions, same everything except the central figure had breasts it not only wouldn't be in the awesome art thread the flames of outrage would be so bright that four years from now they'd be complaining about the glare around Proxima Centauri
The poser art makes me grind my teeth.
Hot Chicks: Exalted sourcebook
The art made me burst out laughing. With the budget they had, the absolute worst piece should have still been very good. I think the horrific censoring job they did on the Scarlet Princess was the worst, and it just exposes the double standards they have when it comes to male and female characters. Apparently guys can run around with their junk flopping in people's faces, but heaven forbid anyone see a flash of female thigh.
Quote from: Nexus;861405It amazes me that there's complaints that people are focusing on the art instead of the system.
WHy should they complain about the system? It's just another 2e rewrite, which is what they really wanted anyway, no matter what the monkeys screeched from their trees. They'd have to fling their shit at each other, rather than the book at that point. And no one really wants to be covered in crap in public.
Well it's several hundred pages of rules. Personally, I can't read that many rules in a couple of days. I have things to do. It will probably take me weeks to actually read the rules and understand them. I don't find rpgs of any sort enjoyable to read. It's tedious so it takes me forever. I also won't be talking about them on RPG.net because the thread bans have begun. Though I'm surprised at the lack of forum bans.
But at least one person thinks that it is so different from 2e as to be unrecognizable.
Quote from: braincraft;19499135The combat system is almost unrecognizably different.
This thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768683-Exalted-3e-Tell-me-about-the-rules-and-The-awesomess-of-the-new-mechanics-(compared-to-2e)&p=19499201#post19499201).
Wow... that user is full of shit.
Unrecognizable? Really? I think he/she should consider a nick-name change.
Sure, you now have a splitting in "Initiative combat" and "real combat" but the two parts work more or less how combat worked in 2e.
Unrecognizable...yeah...LOL.
Man they are really throwing 2e and practically anyone associated with it under the bus. I remember when UDON was the shit as far as Exalted art went now they're bland and "misogynistic"
But not really a surprise after Savant and Sorcerer artist was crucified after so many were almost pleading for him to work on Exalted for producing work that was stylistically identical to most of his drawing. .
Exalted? Poser art? Seriously?
Lo, how the mighty have fallen.
Quote from: Nexus;861613Man they are really throwing 2e and practically anyone associated with it under the bus. I remember when UDON was the shit as far as Exalted art went now they're bland and "misogynistic"
But not really a surprise after Savant and Sorcerer artist was crucified after so many were almost pleading for him to work on Exalted for producing work that was stylistically identical to most of his drawing. .
UDON was the shit. This time around we have art the boils down to some, not all mind you but some, IS shit while the majority is ok. One or two pieces are truly exceptional.
Quote from: James Gillen;861538Banana Hammock Exhibitionist Display!
I am so stuck on that I admit. I hate Double Standards especially when they're held up as righteous and it such a brazen, blatant one that its either displays profound lack of self awareness or utter hypocrisy not to see it. Especially in light of the griping about any 3e art that showed an inch of female skin or the apparent unending stream of horrible demeaning sexist art in 2nd.
Quote from: Nexus;861654I am so stuck on that I admit. I hate Double Standards especially when they're held up as righteous and it such a brazen, blatant one that its either displays profound lack of self awareness or utter hypocrisy not to see it. Especially in light of the griping about any 3e art that showed an inch of female skin or the apparent unending stream of horrible demeaning sexist art in 2nd.
Can't be a sjw without being a massive fucking hypocrite.
Quote from: Nexus;861654I am so stuck on that I admit. I hate Double Standards especially when they're held up as righteous and it such a brazen, blatant one that its either displays profound lack of self awareness or utter hypocrisy not to see it. Especially in light of the griping about any 3e art that showed an inch of female skin or the apparent unending stream of horrible demeaning sexist art in 2nd.
Double Standard Patriarchy Defense!
I love the way 2nd ed is the scapegoat for Art comparison, the constant "Yeah well, um, the art isn't great BUT AT LEAST IT ISN'T MISOGYNIST!"
Build that Strawman some more and throw fire on it... I guess Onyx Path has no problem with insulting the previous writers and artists who worked on the older editions of Exalted...as the new Developers are even piling on.
The Virtue Signaling is almost precious.
I'm with you, Nexus.
The selfsame people who go on a rampage when there is a bit of side-boob or leg shown of female characters find it "awesome" how the artist was able to sexualize the male lead Solar this time around. Stupid poses and penis-bulges are, apparently, not at all sexist and/or exploitative if it is a man who is pictured.
Talk about double-standards.
The whole "If you are a white male who is hetero you have no voice" is really reinforced. Funny how the "we will not tolerate discrimination"-crowd can be fact-blind in extremis (or maybe they just don't want to see it).
It's really crass.
Quote from: James Gillen;861719Double Standard Patriarchy Defense!
And they say there aren't any Perfect Defenses in 3rd.
Quote from: Orphan81;861729I love the way 2nd ed is the scapegoat for Art comparison, the constant "Yeah well, um, the art isn't great BUT AT LEAST IT ISN'T MISOGYNIST!"
Build that Strawman some more and throw fire on it... I guess Onyx Path has no problem with insulting the previous writers and artists who worked on the older editions of Exalted...as the new Developers are even piling on.
The Virtue Signaling is almost precious.
They're really beating that drum hard. Which just casts an even brighter light on the Dawn sig thing. What with poster praising the current edition for its “gender parity” praising a revealing picture of a man while still fuming about anything that hints of wicked female skin.
The reactions to the Prince Diamond cover have been bizarre but ironically fitting, IMO, since the whole thing feels more like “Look! Look at how inclusive we are!” style pandering rather an a matter of circumstance and setting (like the transgendered character on the cover of Arrow of Indra).
What's almost worse is the accusation of Entitlement (gasp!) directed at those who actually expected the book they paid 100+ dollars forand waited slightly over two years to get to be higher than average quality. No call on OP for making promises it couldn't live up too but on the fans for being "stupid" enough to believe them.
Serious question, has anything released to this point been up to the expectations presented? The art samples were "meh." the fiction anthology poor, the comic reportedly kind of sucked, etc.
Quote from: Anglachel;861731I'm with you, Nexus.
The selfsame people who go on a rampage when there is a bit of side-boob or leg shown of female characters find it "awesome" how the artist was able to sexualize the male lead Solar this time around. Stupid poses and penis-bulges are, apparently, not at all sexist and/or exploitative if it is a man who is pictured.
Talk about double-standards.
Punch up, not down, privilege, patriarchy
The whole "If you are a white male who is hetero you have no voice" is really reinforced. Funny how the "we will not tolerate discrimination"-crowd can be fact-blind in extremis (or maybe they just don't want to see it).
It's really crass.[/QUOTE]
Good word for it. And so brazen. But not exactly new ground for TBP. There's a thread full of sexualized pictures of men and women, things that would be most likely get the poster sanctioned or at least mocked amd chastised but are acceptable because they're furries and other “non humans”.
Someone points out the attacks on those that have criticized the art and how 2e is getting trashed, and is summarily banned for a day. I know none of us are surprised. It's just hilarious that this is allowed and by an OP writer.
Quote from: Ryan L.;861737Someone points out the attacks on those that have criticized the art and how 2e is getting trashed, and is summarily banned for a day. I know none of us are surprised. It's just hilarious that this is allowed and by an OP writer.
Its hilarious that someone will often get harder mod action on rpg.net for criticizing OP staff or products than on the official OP forums.
Differences between the Leak and the backer pdf discussion thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768628-Differences-between-Ex3-and-the-last-EX3-leak)
Example Character Creation thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768763-Exalted-3rd-edition-Character-Creation-Tiger-tiger-burning-bright-In-the-forests-of-the-night)
Quote from: Nexus;861736What's almost worse is the accusation of Entitlement (gasp!) directed at those who actually expected the book they paid 100+ dollars forand waited slightly over two years to get to be higher than average quality. No call on OP for making promises it couldn't live up too but on the fans for being "stupid" enough to believe them.
See that shit pisses me off. The only entitlement issue I see hear is from the dev team. They got over 600,000 dollars and produce utter shit. There had been other dev teams who made good books with only a tiny fraction of the cost.
I was going to complain more about the state of discussion in those threads but it's a bit pointless to do it here. I can't do it there where it's needed because it's a shit house of moderation. So that will be the last of it.
I've skipped over chapters to get to Character Creation and play around with that. I've found at least two things I dislike. Heroic mortals start with 6 more BP than Solars, which doesn't make much sense. Since heroic mortals are the people Solars are most likely created from it would make more sense if they had a similar amount of less. It's a minor quibble.
In the Traits chapter where the Castes are described they've moved the anima mechanics for each caste to a separate page. This is annoying in a lot of ways. It requires more page flipping just to understand what your character is capable of doing. Not a big deal for veterans, but it doesn't make sense in a book that is meant to be a how-to guide.
Since I don't feel like posting anything in TRO again I'll probably annoy people here with my thoughts.
Quote from: The Butcher;861625Exalted? Poser art? Seriously?
Lo, how the mighty have fallen.
Attention, game publishers:
NO ART IS BETTER THAN POSER ART.Seriously. No joke. It's the ultimate red flag of half-assed amateurism.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;861759NO ART IS BETTER THAN POSER ART.
This is the first time I ever heard the term, "Poser Art" in reference to this art. Even after I found out what Poser meant in this context, I still think that my original inferrence worked too. :)
Quote from: Ryan L.;861757Since I don't feel like posting anything in TRO again I'll probably annoy people here with my thoughts.
Naw keep posting away.
Quote from: Ryan L.;861757I was going to complain more about the state of discussion in those threads but it's a bit pointless to do it here. I can't do it there where it's needed because it's a shit house of moderation. So that will be the last of it.
.
Its true but its good to have a place to vent.
Someone should ask them where the 600 grand has gone. Certainly not on artwork. ;)
Quote from: One Horse Town;861778Someone should ask them where the 600 grand has gone. Certainly not on artwork. ;)
My money is still on hookers and blow.
But, to be serious for a moment, they're claiming a number of expensive professional artists took the money and ran and that's why some of the art is so lacking. Of course, they dare not name names because that would be unprofessional.
The art isn't all bad. like I posted earlier, I think the opening spread is really cool, and evocative. However things are overall pretty scattershot. Then again so was Exalted 1e, IMO.
Quote from: JamesV;861783The art isn't all bad. like I posted earlier, I think the opening spread is really cool, and evocative. However things are overall pretty scattershot. Then again so was Exalted 1e, IMO.
I don't think I've seen anyone yet say that all of the art is terrible, and only a few people think as a whole it ranks as really bad. That's not the point. Exalted 3 was supposed to be a gorgeous game-changing RPG, the sort of thing people would be proud to have dropped hundreds of dollars on. But the simple fact is that I've got at least four games on my shelf now (Eoris Essence, Shadows of Esteren, The One Ring, and Anima: Beyond Fantasy) that make it look like a dog. And those games did it on much smaller budgets.
As an alternative, do a Google Image search for Enascentia, an Italian Savage Worlds game that is currently getting an English translation. The game is gorgeous and you can bet the makers didn't have over half a million dollars to pour into its creation.
Quote from: One Horse Town;861778Someone should ask them where the 600 grand has gone. Certainly not on artwork. ;)
Well...
Quote from: IanWatson;19498121That's not how Kickstarters work.
The above was in direct reply to this,
Quote from: Roadie;19498099With a budget upwards of $680,000, I don't see how eating the immediate cost of art pieces to be used in the core book and other following books would have been a problem.
I'm sure that the art department had a budget before starting. They also achieved a kickstarter goal that increased the amount of art by 33%. Of course, there's no way to tell if that actually occurred since this is the first and only time we've seen all of the art in one place.
And of course the usual suspect has leaped to the poor dev team's defense.
Quote from: Blaque;19499492This thread as a lot of what seems to be illustration Dunning-Kruger Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) working at full blast. It's quite interesting to say the least in that.
And stuff.
Because apparently the unwashed masses can't possibly understand how purchasing art works in the rpg world. After all nobody else has ever had to deal with it, only OP.
The floating excuse at the moment seems to be "All of that money was used on the prestige printed editions".
Which again comes off as kinda fishy when you consider they passed their funding goal several times over, and the number of other beautiful full color artwork printed books that get made via Kickstarter..
Quote from: Brand55;861786... Exalted 3 was supposed to be a gorgeous game-changing RPG, the sort of thing people would be proud to have dropped hundreds of dollars on... As an alternative, do a Google Image search for Enascentia, an Italian Savage Worlds game that is currently getting an English translation. The game is gorgeous and you can bet the makers didn't have over half a million dollars to pour into its creation.
I get that too. It's mildly depressing, but I'm not that surprised at all that things are a boondoggle, budget considered. Maybe it's because I had two years to get over my own expectations and move on to other, better managed projects.
As for mind-blowing art, I've heard about Aquellare as a game for a while, but I don't ever remember anyone saying how awesome the interior art is.
Wait, they're not naming names of people that criminally ripped them off because that would be "unprofessional" while they haven't been at all shy about flinging poo for the past couple of years about anything else at the people that worked on 2ed?
Quote from: Nexus;861792Wait, they're not naming names of people that criminally ripped them off because that would be "unprofessional" while they haven't been at all shy about flinging poo for the past couple of years about anything else at the people that worked on 2ed?
They're talking bollocks and circling the wagons.
I have no dog in this race to be honest, but i've found the constant haranguing of GMS over Far West by a not inconsiderable number of OP writers rather amusing given what's been happening with Exalted. I seem to recall a lot of people laughing over some artwork in Far West being 'traced' - now, shock horror, some stuff has 'got through' after the 2 year wait for ex3.
I find the schadenfreude delectable.
Quote from: JamesV;861790I get that too. It's mildly depressing, but I'm not that surprised at all that things are a boondoggle, budget considered. Maybe it's because I had two years to get over my own expectations and move on to other, better managed projects.
Yeah, I think you're not alone in that regard. I'm just very, very glad that I chose to skip that particular Kickstarter.
Quote from: JamesV;861790As for mind-blowing art, I've heard about Aquellare as a game for a while, but I don't ever remember anyone saying how awesome the interior art is.
I don't know too much about Aquelare, but a quick glance at the Kickstarter page shows some interesting art. I do like that they're sticking to a certain theme for the book. It gives it a distinctive look that's very fitting.
Quote from: One Horse Town;861793They're talking bollocks and circling the wagons.
I have no dog in this race to be honest, but i've found the constant haranguing of GMS over Far West by a not inconsiderable number of OP writers rather amusing given what's been happening with Exalted. I seem to recall a lot of people laughing over some artwork in Far West being 'traced' - now, shock horror, some stuff has 'got through' after the 2 year wait for ex3.
I find the schadenfreude delectable.
On the surface, it's "only" 4 or 5 RPG.net mods who also work for Onyx Path (Matt McFarland, Rose Bailey, Holden, Stephenls, and Jill Valentine)
Still, some of those mods are VERY active...throw in other Onyx Path writers like Stew Wilson as regular posters and it's a wonder you can even criticize anything made by Onyx Path in the first place.
So who 2ants to take the hit and actually run this sucker in the pbp subforum.
The more I read, the gladder I get that I downgraded my pledge to just the pdf. There is some stuff I like(the new setting info and the play as these exalted section), but most of it (like the cover art) is just not doing it for me.
I do dig Wu-Jian though.
Wu Jian is that sprawling layered slum looking city?
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;861759Attention, game publishers:
NO ART IS BETTER THAN POSER ART.
Seriously. No joke. It's the ultimate red flag of half-assed amateurism.
What would you call trying to pass off grainy photographs of GI Joe figures as "game book art"?
(Because seriously that's what R.Talsorian did with one edition of Cyberpunk.)
Quote from: Nexus;861847Wu Jian is that sprawling layered slum looking city?
That seems to be the case. It gets only a paragraph description in the setting chapter like everything else, but the fiction at the beginning talks about it more. I tend not to read fiction ever, but I read two pages of it. It made me realize why I don't read rpg chapter fiction again.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;861835So who 2ants to take the hit and actually run this sucker in the pbp subforum.
I probably could if there was enough interest here. If there isn't I could do it somewhere like Giant in the Playground forums. Dice roller could be orokos.com since it provides bb code for posting in a forum. If it's at gitp I think they have forum dice rolling. It's going to be a week or two though.
Hello! OP here...
Well here we are 2 years after the original release date (almost sorta) and we have the pdf.
There is some bad art. Like wow really bad art and some really nice art.
The system is... understandable. Which I suppose is an improvement from 2e.
Yet at the same time its a fuck ton of things to track turn to turn. And frankly Dex has always been the god stat in White Wolf games. I can only see this new system makes that even worse. So goody there guys. No one has come forward with completely broken mechanical elements yet. So I suppose I should congratulate you on that.
But frankly for me its to damn complex not just a little either. But like by a factor of 2 or 3. I don't understand why you felt the need to make a game that is THAT complex. I mean people complained about D&D4 being complex and slow to play. This game is far more complex and I cant imagine its faster.
I will never play this game. I will never run this game. I will likely not even bother reading the rest of this game. You will never get more of my money.
Yes, I'm bitter.
I am not a backer of the Exalted 3 Ks but I own a lot of the former edition books and I am glad to have them because the material can be used for an epic campaing using 13th Age rules + Scarlet Heroes rules (the Fray Dice mostly).
I might be a petty person but I do remember Stepenls wrote a dismisive post about Numenera, at the time of its release, caaling it a D&D reskin. Well by this logic, we can called Exalted a D&D hack, can't we ?
And remember, the Numenera KS was live the same year that the Exalted one but it delivers with 1 month delay (due to Monte's father passing) and the corebook is full of awesome art. And now Numenera has 4 more books released. With more than 600 000 $, OPP should have done at least as good as Monte, didn't they ?
Quote from: Ryan L.;861872That seems to be the case. It gets only a paragraph description in the setting chapter like everything else, but the fiction at the beginning talks about it more. I tend not to read fiction ever, but I read two pages of it. It made me realize why I don't read rpg chapter fiction again.
I probably could if there was enough interest here. If there isn't I could do it somewhere like Giant in the Playground forums. Dice roller could be orokos.com since it provides bb code for posting in a forum. If it's at gitp I think they have forum dice rolling. It's going to be a week or two though.
I have an account at GitP, so that could work.
Quote from: yabaziou;861882I am not a backer of the Exalted 3 Ks but I own a lot of the former edition books and I am glad to have them because the material can be used for an epic campaing using 13th Age rules + Scarlet Heroes rules (the Fray Dice mostly).
I might be a petty person but I do remember Stepenls wrote a dismisive post about Numenera, at the time of its release, caaling it a D&D reskin. Well by this logic, we can called Exalted a D&D hack, can't we ?
And remember, the Numenera KS was live the same year that the Exalted one but it delivers with 1 month delay (due to Monte's father passing) and the corebook is full of awesome art. And now Numenera has 4 more books released. With more than 600 000 $, OPP should have done at least as good as Monte, didn't they ?
Monte Cook is a professional. That's the difference.
Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;861880Hello! OP here...
Well here we are 2 years after the original release date (almost sorta) and we have the pdf.
There is some bad art. Like wow really bad art and some really nice art.
The system is... understandable. Which I suppose is an improvement from 2e.
Yet at the same time its a fuck ton of things to track turn to turn. And frankly Dex has always been the god stat in White Wolf games. I can only see this new system makes that even worse. So goody there guys. No one has come forward with completely broken mechanical elements yet. So I suppose I should congratulate you on that.
But frankly for me its to damn complex not just a little either. But like by a factor of 2 or 3. I don't understand why you felt the need to make a game that is THAT complex. I mean people complained about D&D4 being complex and slow to play. This game is far more complex and I cant imagine its faster.
I will never play this game. I will never run this game. I will likely not even bother reading the rest of this game. You will never get more of my money.
Yes, I'm bitter.
Maybe this is because as was stated by one of the head writers, they don't actually play RPG's just read them for fun.
I can't understand why someone would make an RPG this complex in this day and age. Don't get me wrong, part of Exalted's charm has been the fact it's an exception based system, so your powers have way more flavor to them..
But the sheer number of things to keep track of now in a battle. Exalted 1e was rather taxing on a GM's abilities when it came to running multiple Exalted enemies in battle...but this..
Keeping track of keywords, Momentum, Health, Speed, Maneuver variables, charms, essence and all of that in battle now? It's just a complete headache.
It keeps bringing me back to how I wish there was another crack at fixing 1e's problems.
So, Exalted 3e is a groundbreaking rpg, huh? LOL
The official delusions have started after ~1 day of the backer pdf dropping. Funny detail - the first to use this exact words was...no wonder...Holden himself. And then it got taken up by some (no wonder there either) heavily biased other folks (for example Zeea). And now it started to be uncool to be "negative" about the game aka the fanbois start dog-piling you if you post anything else than praise of the game :rolleyes:
And the biased moderation is still getting worse. So criticizing the art and how the whole team has done the pdf is now automatically (as it seems) a personal attack (because the people who worked on that stuff are members of rpg.net) but if you talk crap about other companies or other dev. teams that are not part of OPP or the mod team, then it's no problem...even the mods themselves "personal attack" old devs of 2e.
The owners of rpg.net really should put a stop to this. Or are they themselves part of that crowd? I mean this is really not funny anymore.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;861848What would you call trying to pass off grainy photographs of GI Joe figures as "game book art"?
(Because seriously that's what R.Talsorian did with one edition of Cyberpunk.)
I never saw CP 2030, so I don't know how badly RT screwed that pooch, but using photos of action figures could
maybe be cool if done correctly... like say, a
Star Wars RPG adventure done in the style of one of those mini-catalogs that used to come with the 70's Kenner toys.
But Poser art? Just say "No", man. POSER ART: NOT EVER ONCE.
Quote from: Anglachel;861891So, Exalted 3e is a groundbreaking rpg, huh? LOL
The official delusions have started after ~1 day of the backer pdf dropping. Funny detail - the first to use this exact words was...no wonder...Holden himself. And then it got taken up by some (no wonder there either) heavily biased other folks (for example Zeea). And now it started to be uncool to be "negative" about the game aka the fanbois start dog-piling you if you post anything else than praise of the game :rolleyes:
And the biased moderation is still getting worse. So criticizing the art and how the whole team has done the pdf is now automatically (as it seems) a personal attack (because the people who worked on that stuff are members of rpg.net) but if you talk crap about other companies or other dev. teams that are not part of OPP or the mod team, then it's no problem...even the mods themselves "personal attack" old devs of 2e.
The owners of rpg.net really should put a stop to this. Or are they themselves part of that crowd? I mean this is really not funny anymore.
Exalted developers and fans take pot shots at other games so often its practically a running game. And I've rarely seen anyone called on it. D and D, GURPS, apparently Numera, etc have all been shit on at some point along with 2ed (by some of the same people that were rabidly defending it before).
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;861895But Poser art? Just say "No", man. POSER ART: NOT EVER ONCE.
It was more dolls (as in Barbie like) dolls more than action figures. I can respect the attempt to be different but it didn't play out well. With a bigger budget and more time it very well might have.
That said, I don't really have a problem with Poser style art. I consider it like any other medium in that it can be well done or done poorly. Unfortunately, its really easy to do it poorly and take very lazy short cuts that end up looking shabby. The example from 3e looked pretty mediocre, not horrible (some of the more conventional art is worse) but its not high end and seems out of context.
Okay, what is "Male gazey" and what makes it so horrible vs a picture of a dude in a posing pouch so snug that with a slight zoom you could tell if his people practice circumcision being awesome? 2ed keeps getting thrown under the bus again and again in this respect .
Quote from: Nexus;861903Okay, what is "Male gazey" and what makes it so horrible vs a picture of a dude in a posing pouch so snug that with a slight zoom you could tell if his people practice circumcision being awesome? 2ed keeps getting thrown under the bus again and again in this respect .
So as a an exercise, I went through 2nd edition core and counted up the number of "problematic male gaze" images I could with the widest generous definition available.
Overall, it's about 10-11 pictures with an extreme definition of any female character who is showing some amount of skin.
A more reasonable definition, but still following these guidelines drops the numbers down to around 6-7 where the women are attractive and could be seen as presented as purposefully sexy..
When you finally get down to flat out nudity you get about 3-4 images total..
And one of those images, the infamous "green dude with two girls" is entirely about showcasing the decadence of the Dragon Blooded.
But anyway, considering there's something like over a hundred pieces of art through out the whole book, only 4-8 being "problematic" is not a big deal..
It certainly doesn't deserve to be thrown under the bus as some book of "Terrible Misogyny". Particularly when it's art and presentation overall is superior to 3rd editions.
Edit: Male Gaze Theory is an old 70's Feminist term whose original creator later discredited herself in the 80s and 90s...but which has been picked up again by extremists. The idea is that most art and media is presented with the "Male Gaze" in mind. That is, the only reason we have attractive women in media is to please the straight male gaze and nothing more.
This discounts the idea that Lesbians might also enjoy attractive women, or that women themselves enjoy seeing attractive women in their own escapism too, just as guys like seeing bad ass looking dudes in their own escapism.
This theory has been widely used to attack modern comic books, with the idea that the burly adonis men wearing skin tight superhero outfits don't count as sexual to the eyes of women because they're all "Power Fantasies" for men...While the scantily clad goddess superheroines are of course the worst thing ever..
This meme explains it all quite perfectly..
http://41.media.tumblr.com/bcb7694c58b274a5a2f926091dc6c8a7/tumblr_n34az5n03J1seq1n3o1_1280.jpg (http://41.media.tumblr.com/bcb7694c58b274a5a2f926091dc6c8a7/tumblr_n34az5n03J1seq1n3o1_1280.jpg)
I'm just irritated that I got not one, but TWO of those Exalted books, and after waiting two years... That some of the art is atrocious is just insulting. It's all I can thikn about whenever I try and look at the pdf.
Some of the art is legitimately good, and then while reading it I come across another stinker. I knew the Ex3 team had some issues... But at a certain level, I guess, I just didn't want to believe they were that bad. The art - just reminds how badly bungled this game has been.
Ok, so rather than just let other people think for me and work myself up into a righteous fury over nothing... I just went through the PDF and counted up all the art. In my estimation (not including weapons and armor) there are roughly ~168 pieces of art in the book, not including weapons & armor.
There are
7 pieces of art I think are just objectively bad.
4 pieces of art I think where something weird happened that messed up the quality.
Things like the dude in the thong are IMO - silly, but not actually bad per se.
I'm a data analyst, not an artist, but this is just my opinion - 1 piece of art in 15 needs replaced or fixed. Of course, one could make the argument that some of the art isn't necessarily doing what it should, and certainly, it looks like there was one main style of art with a few other dramatically different styles peppered in as well.
Not as bad as I thought.
We've been playing for a while off of the "We swear this is not the final iteration, the real game will be totes different!" leak for...about 2 months now give or take. So, that seems to have been a fib. It's a perfectly competent game. Not groundbreaking by any stretch, but the combat runs smoother, the social combat/influence portion runs smoother (Or rather, runs at all! 2E was kind of a shit show in that regard). It's a bit faster, but most of the changes seem to be getting it to say, go down a highway doing 40MPH rather than bumping down an old dirt road that hasn't been maintained in 30 years doing 40MPH.
Combat hasn't taken too long, but we haven't had Exalt v. Exalt combat yet.
If anyone has questions about how things play out, I'll be happy to give answers if we've used it in play.
Quote from: Nexus;861900It was more dolls (as in Barbie like) dolls more than action figures. I can respect the attempt to be different but it didn't play out well. With a bigger budget and more time it very well might have.
I think the CP2030 art comes under the category of "failed experiment" rather than "half-assed, lazy mediocrity". It was trying to do something different, and boy howdy was it different, but the execution was not up to scratch.
I imagine R. Talsorian found themselves forced to ship it as was because they couldn't afford to commission all-new art when the final product came back looking as utter ass as it did. I can completely believe that they kept thinking to themselves "OK, it looks a bit goofy now, but once we put on the photoshop filters... OK, well it's still silly, but this is looking at the image in isolation, once we put it in layout... ah, crap! No, no, it's still good, it'll look just fine once we actually have the printed product... aw, shoot, we're stuck with this aren't we?" (Or, alternatively, I could equally believe that they were so enthusiastic about the idea that they genuinely thought it looked good and weren't able to get sufficient objectivity to think about what the illustrations would look like to someone outside of their inner circle.)
Then again, it could just be that Mike Pondsmith just got completely out of touch with the zeitgeist and has sufficiently idiosyncratic taste that he isn't capable of discerning between stuff which looks good to him and stuff which would look good to anyone else. CP2030 made a whole bunch of setting changes which turned people off too because of some desire to update the game in a manner which there was no real demand for among the player base.
Either way, it's at least trying, which is more than I can say for some of the phoned-in crap in the new Exalted.
I'd be willing to try this game as a Demetheus clone/wannabe, just to see how the unarmed combat system plays out this time.
I honestly want to try the melee war stuff. Mass combat has always been absolutely shit in the previous editions and I like swords.
The evocations seem a bit much though. I read the stuff for Volcano Cutter, and holy shit is that a bunch of bitch work to track.
Quote from: Michael Gray;861937We've been playing for a while off of the "We swear this is not the final iteration, the real game will be totes different!" leak for...about 2 months now give or take. So, that seems to have been a fib. It's a perfectly competent game. Not groundbreaking by any stretch, but the combat runs smoother, the social combat/influence portion runs smoother (Or rather, runs at all! 2E was kind of a shit show in that regard). It's a bit faster, but most of the changes seem to be getting it to say, go down a highway doing 40MPH rather than bumping down an old dirt road that hasn't been maintained in 30 years doing 40MPH.
Combat hasn't taken too long, but we haven't had Exalt v. Exalt combat yet.
If anyone has questions about how things play out, I'll be happy to give answers if we've used it in play.
Good to hear a balanced and informed opinion. What you say matches my impression of the ruleset. I would play it over 2e any day, but overall its an minor improvement on that existing base.
Quote from: Anglachel;861891The owners of rpg.net really should put a stop to this. Or are they themselves part of that crowd? I mean this is really not funny anymore.
They never will. Hell ZakS pointed out how much of a hypocrite they are by showing ads of sexy ladies, but continue to judge others if they do something similar. They will not fix the site unless they are force to make changes.
I'm reading the character generation and example combat threads and its just makes me eyes glaze over. I think the posters are legitimately excited about the mechanics and how they play out but they really just bog me down. And some of the build stuff just seems so strange. To build an excellent unarmed fighter, get some sorcery then avoid your "splats" particular charms (unless you want to be WWE Luchador) and get a bunch of unusual packages of limited supernatural powers (the require a high cost merit by in and different ability for each package).
I just want to play Ryu, is that so wrong? :D
Quote from: Snowman0147;861948They never will. Hell ZakS pointed out how much of a hypocrite they are by showing ads of sexy ladies, but continue to judge others if they do something similar. They will not fix the site unless they are force to make changes.
Motorskills just tripped up on that.
Quote from: Nexus;861966I just want to play Ryu, is that so wrong? :D
There's an actual Street Fighter game for that. :D Though I haven't read it so I don't know if it lets you play Ryu or if it's any easier mechanically than Exalted since it was a White Wolf game, too.
I sympathize though. The final release just cemented what all the leaks had me pretty sure of these past two years. Exalted is just more crunchy than I like these days. It's too much work. More power to the people that love it, but I want faster, more stream-lined systems when I sit in the GM's chair. Finally seeing the new Exalted has just made my anticipation for Godbound grow even more.
Quote from: Brand55;861968There's an actual Street Fighter game for that. :D Though I haven't read it so I don't know if it lets you play Ryu or if it's any easier mechanically than Exalted since it was a White Wolf game, too.
.
The Street Fighter Storytelling Game isn't any mechanically easier. In fact, as I recall, it was far and away the most complex system 90's WW ever released. This is particularly odd as the whole stated purpose of the project was to act as an introductory game for kids. It's also depressingly very heavy on optimization and system mastery (Ugh.)
I picked up a used copy on a lark thinking it would be a fun goofball wahoo game. I was pretty disappointed.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;861885Monte Cook is a professional. That's the difference.
More like, Monte Cook isn't tonguing his own appendix through his colon, that's the difference.
JG
Quote from: Warboss Squee;861967Motorskills just tripped up on that.
What happen after that?
Quote from: Snowman0147;861971What happen after that?
Well& not that exact thing but he made mention of the sjw inclination towards hypocrisy and nudge wink name dropped us in the process.
He got a three day vacation.
Didn't he used to be an admin or something.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;861972Didn't he used to be an admin or something.
Nah.
Quote from: Michael Gray;861937We've been playing for a while off of the "We swear this is not the final iteration, the real game will be totes different!" leak for...about 2 months now give or take. So, that seems to have been a fib. It's a perfectly competent game. Not groundbreaking by any stretch, but the combat runs smoother, the social combat/influence portion runs smoother (Or rather, runs at all! 2E was kind of a shit show in that regard). It's a bit faster, but most of the changes seem to be getting it to say, go down a highway doing 40MPH rather than bumping down an old dirt road that hasn't been maintained in 30 years doing 40MPH.
Combat hasn't taken too long, but we haven't had Exalt v. Exalt combat yet.
If anyone has questions about how things play out, I'll be happy to give answers if we've used it in play.
Thanks for the analysis. If you run across anything else, please share .
Quote from: Skywalker;861946Good to hear a balanced and informed opinion. What you say matches my impression of the ruleset. I would play it over 2e any day, but overall its an minor improvement on that existing base.
Though I think the rule set is needlessly dense it seems functional like I've said. It works just not how I'd want it too and its based on allot of assumptions and tropes I don't particularly agree with.
That happens. They weren't making the Nexus edition of Exalted.
The thing that chaps my ass is the way its been handled, the pervasive attitude directed at "haters", the passive aggressive bullshit, misleading commentary and other crap from the staff and writers.
Quote from: Brand55;861968There's an actual Street Fighter game for that. :D Though I haven't read it so I don't know if it lets you play Ryu or if it's any easier mechanically than Exalted since it was a White Wolf game, too.
I have it. Its not very good, IMO.
What I meant be play Ryu is play a guy/girl that's "just" good at fighting with empty handed. No weird special effects or emulating a tiger, etc. Some odd powers are fine and flavor ("Haudoken!").
To be fair, this wasn't exactly heavily supported in 2ed and 1st but there was more ability to build something like it using Brawl and a smattering of other charms and customs. Brawl didn't seem so pigeonholed into WWE smackdown style.
Dawn vs Tyrant Lizard
Quote from: Tyrrell;19506619After twelve turns or so neither side had won there was a lot of back and forth a lucky blow could still tilt the balance either way. The dawn was in initiative crash when I ran out of time but he was slowly gaining back an initiative or two and a few motes each round. In a fight to the death I'd bet on him, he still has enough essence to pull out a big attack if he needs to though it will leave him spent.
The tyrant lizard had taken eight body levels so she was at -1 die for everything. With a lucky attack she might be able to bash the dawn prone then follow that up with a stomp to grapple (he's in initiative crash so he can't heavenly guardian defense the unparryable attack, his evasion defense is negligible when he's prone) once grappled if she can control the grapple long enough she'll be able to savage him for some serious damage. If the dawn gets himself out of crash she'll have to use her roar which will suck his initiative and willpower if he wants to keep from fleeing in terror, the dawn caste only has one willpower left so if she roars twice he'll head for the hills and shell be safe from that nasty glowing person and his sharp steel sword.
Quote from: Orphan81;861906So as a an exercise, I went through 2nd edition core and counted up the number of "problematic male gaze" images I could with the widest generous definition available.
Overall, it's about 10-11 pictures with an extreme definition of any female character who is showing some amount of skin.
A more reasonable definition, but still following these guidelines drops the numbers down to around 6-7 where the women are attractive and could be seen as presented as purposefully sexy..
When you finally get down to flat out nudity you get about 3-4 images total..
And one of those images, the infamous "green dude with two girls" is entirely about showcasing the decadence of the Dragon Blooded.
But anyway, considering there's something like over a hundred pieces of art through out the whole book, only 4-8 being "problematic" is not a big deal..
It certainly doesn't deserve to be thrown under the bus as some book of "Terrible Misogyny". Particularly when it's art and presentation overall is superior to 3rd editions.
Edit: Male Gaze Theory is an old 70's Feminist term whose original creator later discredited herself in the 80s and 90s...but which has been picked up again by extremists. The idea is that most art and media is presented with the "Male Gaze" in mind. That is, the only reason we have attractive women in media is to please the straight male gaze and nothing more.
This discounts the idea that Lesbians might also enjoy attractive women, or that women themselves enjoy seeing attractive women in their own escapism too, just as guys like seeing bad ass looking dudes in their own escapism.
This theory has been widely used to attack modern comic books, with the idea that the burly adonis men wearing skin tight superhero outfits don't count as sexual to the eyes of women because they're all "Power Fantasies" for men...While the scantily clad goddess superheroines are of course the worst thing ever..
This meme explains it all quite perfectly..
http://41.media.tumblr.com/bcb7694c58b274a5a2f926091dc6c8a7/tumblr_n34az5n03J1seq1n3o1_1280.jpg (http://41.media.tumblr.com/bcb7694c58b274a5a2f926091dc6c8a7/tumblr_n34az5n03J1seq1n3o1_1280.jpg)
It's a lot like the Bechdel Test and most of the rest of ideas from the usual suspects: a good, interesting and useful idea that then gets run into the ground and turned into counter-productive idiocy.
Basically there are different kinds of attractiveness. Image if you ask an average guy what he wants to look like and then what he wants a woman who he's going to have sex with to look like and then ask an average woman what she wants to look like and then what she wants a man who she's going to have with to look like. What you'll get is two attractive men and two attractive women who look quite different.
That's why male action stars look different from male rom-com stars and why female models in Elle look different than female models in Maxim. In a lot of unisex media there's a strong tendency for the men to fall into the "what average men want to look like" silo while the women fall into the "what average men want to have sex with" silo while you get a lot fewer looks that fall into the "what average women want to look like" and "what average women want to have sex with" silos.
That's sexist and annoying and there should be less of that.
HOWEVER, all of that has a number of flaws:
-It completely erases people who aren't straight.
-It only works for average people. Lots of people don't want to look like or fuck what the average people want to look like or fuck. People who don't fit in those neat little boxes get constantly told to shut up for not supporting the above set of ideas.
-It's really appealing to solipsistic douchebags who quickly assume that if they don't want to look like a certain bit of art of their own gender then nobody does and if they don't want to fuck have sex with someone who looks like a certain bit of art of the other gender than nobody does. Anyone who disagrees with said solipsistic douchebags is obviously either deluded or sexist.
-It ignores a lot of other breakdowns in what people find attractive aside from gender. For example age. The target female market for romance novels is a lot older than the target female market for boy bands. Which is why people on the covers of romance novels look nothing like Justin Bieber.
-People somehow get all of this mixed up with realism and complain that bits of female art don't look realistic which is really a completely pointless line of argument. Stylized art isn't supposed to be realistic.
-You get people so used to females getting the short end of the stick that their focus changes from having male/female balance to simply being pissed that certain kinds of images of females even exist. Being annoyed that there's a hundred sexualized images of females and 0 of men is fine, being annoyed at a bit of female thigh and cheering on guys in speedos is stupid.
The best solution to all of this is lots more diversity. Throw in all kinds of looks and all kinds of clothes and all kinds of poses. In general with any discussion about art the people who say "this kind of art sucks, there should be less of it" are wrong and the people who say "this other kind of art is awesome and there should be a lot more of it" are right. Personally I think that in a game like Exalted dudes fighting in speedos or less makes a lot of sense, shit should be goofy and over the top for both genders.
Quote from: Daztur;861987That's sexist and annoying and there should be less of that.
QuoteIn general with any discussion about art the people who say "this kind of art sucks, there should be less of it" are wrong and the people who say "this other kind of art is awesome and there should be a lot more of it" are right.
If you create something, and create it with a specific audience in mind... then I see nothing wrong with making the look of the thing appealing to that audience.
As funny and 'fair' as I might think it is I wouldn't want to be the editor at Maxim who decided to shovel in loads of pictures of half-dressed BBW women and men for the sake of 'diversity'.
Quote from: Daztur;861987It's a lot like the Bechdel Test and most of the rest of ideas from the usual suspects: a good, interesting and useful idea that then gets run into the ground and turned into counter-productive idiocy.
The Bechdel Test was never a good and useful idea. Even when Bechdel wrote it, the damn thing was a joke, the punchline of which was the last movie to pass it was... wait for it... Alien.
You know: the horror movie with an alien rape monster? Where one of the two female characters is essentially a useless waste of flesh who doesn't even try to save her own life, much less anyone else's?
Quote from: Spike;862000The Bechdel Test was never a good and useful idea. Even when Bechdel wrote it, the damn thing was a joke, the punchline of which was the last movie to pass it was... wait for it... Alien.
You know: the horror movie with an alien rape monster? Where one of the two female characters is essentially a useless waste of flesh who doesn't even try to save her own life, much less anyone else's?
More to the point, Bechdel herself has mocked the use of the damned thing.
QuoteOTOH, if they need to drum up money to deal with replacing some of the stuff with issues, they could sell 'beta' access...
QuoteI'm fairly sure they could literally just say "We need a bit of money for a few art requests, who wants to throw some into the pot?" and they would have backers willing to give them a little. I missed the original kickstarter, and I know that I would give them $50 for a PDF copy and the promise of better art.
Wasn't "asking for some money in the pot for art" what the Kickstarter was for?
Thing is I have no doubt the second poster is right about people lining up to contribute.
Quote from: Orphan81;861906Edit: Male Gaze Theory is an old 70's Feminist term whose original creator later discredited herself in the 80s and 90s...but which has been picked up again by extremists. The idea is that most art and media is presented with the "Male Gaze" in mind. That is, the only reason we have attractive women in media is to please the straight male gaze and nothing more.
This discounts the idea that Lesbians might also enjoy attractive women, or that women themselves enjoy seeing attractive women in their own escapism too, just as guys like seeing bad ass looking dudes in their own escapism.
This theory has been widely used to attack modern comic books, with the idea that the burly adonis men wearing skin tight superhero outfits don't count as sexual to the eyes of women because they're all "Power Fantasies" for men...While the scantily clad goddess superheroines are of course the worst thing ever..
This meme explains it all quite perfectly..
http://41.media.tumblr.com/bcb7694c58b274a5a2f926091dc6c8a7/tumblr_n34az5n03J1seq1n3o1_1280.jpg (http://41.media.tumblr.com/bcb7694c58b274a5a2f926091dc6c8a7/tumblr_n34az5n03J1seq1n3o1_1280.jpg)
The Male Gaze the Bechdel test, etc seem like polygraphs and IQ tests in being things that people cling to because they give nice simple answers to complicated and nuanced subjects
Quote from: Anglachel;861891So, Exalted 3e is a groundbreaking rpg, huh? LOL
The official delusions have started after ~1 day of the backer pdf dropping. Funny detail - the first to use this exact words was...no wonder...Holden himself. And then it got taken up by some (no wonder there either) heavily biased other folks (for example Zeea). And now it started to be uncool to be "negative" about the game aka the fanbois start dog-piling you if you post anything else than praise of the game :rolleyes:
And the biased moderation is still getting worse. So criticizing the art and how the whole team has done the pdf is now automatically (as it seems) a personal attack (because the people who worked on that stuff are members of rpg.net) but if you talk crap about other companies or other dev. teams that are not part of OPP or the mod team, then it's no problem...even the mods themselves "personal attack" old devs of 2e.
The owners of rpg.net really should put a stop to this. Or are they themselves part of that crowd? I mean this is really not funny anymore.
Basically anyone that posts negatives or Hell, praise that's not glowing enough either gets dog piled, one of the mod staff pulls a passive aggressive "Oooh, can't we talk about this is another thread?" (not in red text but its still going to have a chilling effect when someone with premise of authority start dropping hints) or just get straight up mod hammered and thread banned and possibly given some that's more severe than for similar offenses.
Quote from: SuperG;19510005And actually, I'd say all the other abilities still have to do the "mundane" things. Solar Athletics can allow you to fly, but a Solar Athlete still walks to get around. Solar Brawl allows you to punch out gods and dinosaurs, but you still need to practice katas and train, just like everyone else. Solar Lore tells you secrets of a forgotten, mythic age and prophesy destruction - but it also still leaves you as the guy who can tell the party the name of that town over there. Solar Medicine can work wonders - but you're still going to be treating real world diseases (and probably quite a lot), not Mummy Rot. Solar War allows you to train your troops to be as swift as the coursing river and have the force of a great typhoon... but Followers still "only" gives you "mundane" humans.
Being as awesome as Conan (and any friends he might has) is no longer the low bar you vaulted across the second you Exalted - it's the main competence level the game focuses on.
.
I can accept this as the direction they decided to go in. It happens. But its the acting like this is how its always been, the original "intent" (whatever the at was) and that anyone that wanted or expected different was either an idiot or a some kind of poor gamer is one of the things that's pissed me off about this entire thing.
Quote from: Spike;862000The Bechdel Test was never a good and useful idea. Even when Bechdel wrote it, the damn thing was a joke, the punchline of which was the last movie to pass it was... wait for it... Alien.
You know: the horror movie with an alien rape monster? Where one of the two female characters is essentially a useless waste of flesh who doesn't even try to save her own life, much less anyone else's?
In the defense of the Bechdel Test it's pretty useful for analyzing, say, the output of all Hollywood movies this year. It gives you some interesting information that way, especially looking at stuff year on year. But using it to look at individual movies is idiotic, that's running a statistical analysis with a sample size of one which is worse than useless.
Quote from: Nexus;862047The Male Gaze the Bechdel test, etc seem like polygraphs and IQ tests in being things that people cling to because they give nice simple answers to complicated and nuanced subjects
It isn't just the Drama Club who do this sort of thing. It's an incredibly common human behavior that goes like this:
1. Notice a set of bad behaviors.
2. Make a label for that set of bad behaviors.
3. Sensible people agree that that's a good label for some bad behavior.
4. People then start lumping anything they personally don't like under that label if it's even remotely topical.
5. People who aren't idiots get annoyed at 4.
6. People who are idiots pretend that anyone who doesn't agree with their pet peeves being evil and harmful is defending the original set of terrible bad behaviors way back in 1.
7. Sensible people get really tired of the idiots and start getting suspicious of anyone using the label thought up way back in 2, even though its original narrow definition was fine.
You get this with the stuff we've been talking about in this thread but also with everything from terrorism (which now means "violence I don't like"), Mary Sues (which now means "competent female characters I don't like"), grimdark (which now means "setting that has unhappy stuff in it that I don't like") and socialism (which now means "economic policies that Republicans don't like") and harassment (which now means "people disagreeing with me").
A good general rule is whenever someone dismisses something by sticking a label on it without any analysis then they're not worth listening to.
I've seem Mary Sue applied to male characters too. Sometimes Marty Stu but that never seemed to catch on. But yeah, it has been watered down allot from its original meaning of over done authorial insert character
I just wanna play Beowulf, why is it so hard to do that anywhere, short of an out and out Superhero RPG?
Quote from: Daztur;862056In the defense of the Bechdel Test it's pretty useful for analyzing, say, the output of all Hollywood movies this year. It gives you some interesting information that way, especially looking at stuff year on year. But using it to look at individual movies is idiotic, that's running a statistical analysis with a sample size of one which is worse than useless.
No its not. Its useless. To borrow an example from a woman, Lesbian Dildo Sluts Seven would pass the Bechdel Test. Horror movies that torture female characters to death for explicitly misogynistic reasons can pass the Bechdel test.
Even as an analytic tool for 'interesting information' its useless because of the sheer volume of false positives. A comic artist making a joke is a terrible means of developing statistically meaningful analytic tools, more so when said artist explicitly denies its utility.
The only thing it tests for is itself.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862059I just wanna play Beowulf, why is it so hard to do that anywhere, short of an out and out Superhero RPG?
Scion.
Just saying.
Quote from: Spike;862061Scion.
Just saying.
Ever played Scion?
Just sayin'.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862062Ever played Scion?
Just sayin'.
No, friend. I'm a committed member of WWA, White Wolf Anonymous. I've been clean for five years now...
Amusingly, the very last thing I played... I should say TRIED to play... was Exalted 2nd edition. As a GM.
Never again.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862059I just wanna play Beowulf, why is it so hard to do that anywhere, short of an out and out Superhero RPG?
Sounds like there's some promising new games coming out along those lines (mentioned earlier in the thread, IIRC). Hell, one of the draws that got us into Exalted was the "Beowulf teams up with Ryu to fight Dracula and Cthullu cultists" anime gonzo fantasy aspect. but now that's doing it wrong. .
On a more scholarly note, the connection between superheroes and mythological heroes and tales is pretty strong so it is kind of fitting. :)
Quote from: Spike;862060No its not. Its useless. To borrow an example from a woman, Lesbian Dildo Sluts Seven would pass the Bechdel Test. Horror movies that torture female characters to death for explicitly misogynistic reasons can pass the Bechdel test.
Even as an analytic tool for 'interesting information' its useless because of the sheer volume of false positives. A comic artist making a joke is a terrible means of developing statistically meaningful analytic tools, more so when said artist explicitly denies its utility.
The only thing it tests for is itself.
It's kind of like BMI. It gives bullshit results for a lot of people (lots and lots of professional athletes are officially obese) but it gives useful results on the level of a population, especially when you look at changes over time.
If the BMI of a population shoots up 10 points in twenty years then you can tell that people got a hell of a lot fatter. But it's still really stupid to go and laugh at how fat body builders are because their BMIs are so high.
False positives/negatives mostly cancel each other out when you look at things like "how has the number of Hollywood movies that pass/fail the Bechdel Test changed from decade to decade."
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862062Ever played Scion?
Just sayin'.
I've heard the new edition is supposed to be better but, AIU, the "new" system is yet another version of Storyteller.
Quote from: Spike;862063No, friend. I'm a committed member of WWA, White Wolf Anonymous. I've been clean for five years now...
Amusingly, the very last thing I played... I should say TRIED to play... was Exalted 2nd edition. As a GM.
Never again.
The issue with Scion is the same that all WW games have, Combat and the Dexterity God (no pun intended) Stat. And a Beowulf clone doesn't have a super Dexterity...
A little more on topic: I'm actually surprised that so far only one person has blown their stack about the two sex related charms in the core book. They didn't seem to be a backer so maybe that's really going to blow up when the book goes into wider release.
But well, they chose who to pander too.
Quote from: Daztur;862056It isn't just the Drama Club who do this sort of thing. .
Oh no, taking something that has, at best, a small kernel of truth or some vague applicability and then running it into the ground as some kind of ultimate truth definitely isn't limited to specific circles, look at IQ tests for example. But it sure feels like I run headlong into it from some more than others these days.
Somewhat confounding this place's general characterisation of RPG.net as an echo chamber, there's now a so far healthy and interesting (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e) thread of people sharing their criticisms and disappointments about 3E.
The discussion of the Charms stuff is particularly interesting - for instance, see this bit from Ghosthead on post 43:
QuoteAnd yes, it is a huge section if you feel you need to read through it and consider all your options before making your choices. In 1e the section is 74 pages, in 2e, 82 pages, and both have large Charm titles and subheadings (really, using colour to break out subheadings is not enjoyable) and with large Charm trees taking much up the pagecount. In 3e it is 176 pages with a very tight layout, no Charms trees (to break up the text and to show relationships and progression between Charms), probably about the same amount of art as the whole 2e Charm chapter. If you feel you have to read the whole thing through before making decisions, it is really a slog (esp. if you goal is also to read Sorcery and Martial Arts, and Evocations).
On top of that there's also discussion of how the writeup of each individual charm is obfuscatory and requires you to pick through the entire fluff writeup carefully to work out the rules effects.
Quote from: Warthur;862145Somewhat confounding this place's general characterisation of RPG.net as an echo chamber, there's now a so far healthy and interesting (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e) thread of people sharing their criticisms and disappointments about 3E.
Thanks Warthur, not sure how I missed that thread. It's going to be very interesting to see how that thread goes, particularly as far as Mod attention .
Solars
Lunars
Sidereals
Dragon-Blooded
Abyssals
Liminals
Exigents
Getimians
Alchemicals
Infernals
[Lunar-counterpoint]
[Lunar-counterpoint]
[Sidereal-counterpoint]
[Chosen of the Deep]
[Speakers]
So 15 splats?
In the first few pages that complaint thread looks like more of the same. People state problems or concerns they have and get told how stupid and wrong they are for that, how the game was obviously something different since the dawn of time and they're bad people for wanting or liking something different.
Edit: And, as I think I've said before and Resplendentscorpion mentions in that thread the frequent positive comments may indicate that many of the less that hardcore fans have left the fold awhile ago or just given up.
QuoteThe combat system is seriously, seriously good. Maybe the first worthy rival for D&D4E, though very different
.
What in the utter fuck?
This is the second post in the minus thread, and I am totally floored.
Its odd how some of the defenses and answers are 180 degree contraditory.
Well the reason for that in many cases is because Stephen L Sheppard is a usully involved. I've seen him say something multiple times only to be told that's not how it is by someone else. Of course he's inner circle Exalted so he might be right more e often than not but I hope not b ecuae his answers usually suck. Then Rand steps in to let others know that it's OK for the current devs to shit on previous work because they think there were mistakes made.
On another note, it took me 3 days to read 20 pages on combat. I had to reread things multiple times to grok what I think is going on. That may say more about me than the book. I'm not sure yet. I've started a playtest interest thread over there to try it out, which I hope to get to soon.
Quote from: Ryan L.;862175Well the reason for that in many cases is because Stephen L Sheppard is a usully involved. I've seen him say something multiple times only to be told that's not how it is by someone else. Of course he's inner circle Exalted so he might be right more e often than not but I hope not b ecuae his answers usually suck. Then Rand steps in to let others know that it's OK for the current devs to shit on previous work because they think there were mistakes made.
On another note, it took me 3 days to read 20 pages on combat. I had to reread things multiple times to grok what I think is going on. That may say more about me than the book. I'm not sure yet. I've started a playtest interest thread over there to try it out, which I hope to get to soon.
There's a term for that in video game circles: The Molyneux Cycle.
It's where the developer praises or over promises the game he/she is working on, but totally craps and throws under the bus any previous work they did, agreeing with everyone who claimed it wasn't as good as hyped. Then they start working on the next game, and the immediately trash-talk their last version, again, claiming that it wasn't as good as promised with false humility.
WW/OP has done that now for all three editions of Exalted.
To a certain degree you've got to do that to get people to buy the new edition.
Ryan L. it shouldn't take a day to learn a combat system in a rpg. The fact it took you days speaks much about Exalted 3rd edition and none of it is good.
Quote from: One Horse Town;862178To a certain degree you've got to do that to get people to buy the new edition.
Crapping on your own stuff, and the people you worked for/with (who may not be working with you on this new version) is uncool, tacky and frankly unnecessary.
Wizards of The Coast has never said that earlier version of D&D sucked.
Cue the conga line of "game remains the same" references...
I think my problem is that the rules aren't clear and there are almost 0 examples. The examples that they do have aren't entirely clear. So instead of just reading like I normally would I try to get it down in one go. Also, I get distracted by things that I find immensely more fun, like changing my kid's diaper.
An example of a poorly worded example:
QuoteFor example, a wrestler who clinches an opponent and wins the control roll by a margin of 5 successes will maintain control for 5 additional turns. In that same round, she is attacked twice; one attack misses, while the other inflicts 3 points of Initiative damage. Because she was attacked twice and damaged once, she forfeits three turns of control—the victim will now escape after only 2 turns.
It's supposed to be obvious that it is the two attacks and the damaged once part that changes the control, but I kept sticking on the 3 points of Initiative damage. This I admit as my failing since it's been reiterated that one should take everything literally in the book. I just didn't see why an attack that produces damage should affect control twice. It also doesn't help that the examples are formatted in line with the text with no italicizing or anything. I haven't even gotten to charms which are poorly worded according to others.
Quote from: Nexus;862158In the first few pages that complaint thread looks like more of the same. People state problems or concerns they have and get told how stupid and wrong they are for that, how the game was obviously something different since the dawn of time and they're bad people for wanting or liking something different.
Edit: And, as I think I've said before and Resplendentscorpion mentions in that thread the frequent positive comments may indicate that many of the less that hardcore fans have left the fold awhile ago or just given up.
If you really want to get some honest opinions from people who aren't afraid of the mods coming down on them, read the comments section of the Exalted Kickstarter. That place is quite entertaining, especially since Rich Thomas apparently made a comment on OPP's website slamming Kickstarter users for complaining. That did NOT go over well with some people. I think my favorite line was the guy who apologized to Rich for being an unruly ATM.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862180Wizards of The Coast has never said that earlier version of D&D sucked.
Actually, that was one of the major themes of their 4E advertising. It's one of the many ways in which they alienated large portions of their fanbase.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;862186Actually, that was one of the major themes of their 4E advertising. It's one of the many ways in which they alienated large portions of their fanbase.
Well it's good to see that the d3vs for Ex3 have taken the right lessons from 4th edition.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;862187Well it's good to see that the d3vs for Ex3 have taken the right lessons from 4th edition.
It does seem like 4th Edition fans really like this game in general. At least the combat system.
Honestly, they were screwed from the get go.
They promised the moon and the stars and delivered two years late. People's expectations were even higher thanks to that..
Unless this game also delivered free blow jobs and mustache rides there was going to be some disappointment.
It will indeed be interesting how that [Exalted-] thread will go. Have not read into it yet, but i bet that one of two things will happen:
1) the mods close it down (after banning some of the "offenders" in the thread)
or
2) the thread becomes a joke real soon because there is more + than - and/or the people taking the - seriously will get "shot down" by the fanbois dogpiling the thread with all kinds of accusations and "you just didn't understand it" BS.
@ Ryan L. - Yeah, the "skill" of the Devs to phrase stuff clearly is...non-existant. Or to put it another way - for a game as involved as they want it to be, you'd need some folks who can really "code" sentences...aka a programmer or a mathematician (or at least someone with basic logic skills and a grasp of language and its meanings).
The big problem they have is that they can not clearly separate fluff from rules-text. The result is something that is kind of neither...neither good fluff nor a clear rule. So in other words - failed on all accounts.
Quote from: Nexus;862189It does seem like 4th Edition fans really like this game in general. At least the combat system.
Not necessarily, with myself as anecdotal evidence to the contrary. 4e only works if you have a structured power selection and GM tools to make their burden manageable. Neither exist in Ex3.
Quote from: Skywalker;862208Not necessarily, with myself as anecdotal evidence to the contrary. 4e only works if you have a structured power selection and GM tools to make their burden manageable. Neither exist in Ex3.
Which despite my dislike of it, makes 4e the better game. At least with it, you know what to expect.
Quote from: Skywalker;862208Not necessarily, with myself as anecdotal evidence to the contrary. 4e only works if you have a structured power selection and GM tools to make their burden manageable. Neither exist in Ex3.
Of course, I wasn't speaking universally.. It definitely seems to be a trend though. You'd be one of the two people I've run across where it hasn't held up.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;861943I'd be willing to try this game as a Demetheus clone/wannabe, just to see how the unarmed combat system plays out this time.
Solar Brawl seems to be fairly powerful is a bit one note. Martial arts continues to be the grab bag of weird, themed supernatural powers it was before.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;862187Well it's good to see that the d3vs for Ex3 have taken the right lessons from 4th edition.
Given they didn't bin Storyteller and replace it with a rigorous combat system, clearly they didn't.
Quote from: Kiero;862264Given they didn't bin Storyteller and replace it with a rigorous combat system, clearly they didn't.
Sarcasm, friend.
Quote from: Kiero;862264Given they didn't bin Storyteller and replace it with a rigorous combat system, clearly they didn't.
I was kinda hoping they'd do this... but knew it would never happen. This debacle is pretty much what I expected. OH WELL.
Quote from: Nexus;862222Of course, I wasn't speaking universally.. It definitely seems to be a trend though. You'd be one of the two people I've run across where it hasn't held up.
I really love 4E D&D and had a great time running it for my group. Not a big fan of 3E Exalted.
But to be fair, my group now plays 5E.
Quote from: Anglachel;862191It will indeed be interesting how that [Exalted-] thread will go. Have not read into it yet, but i bet that one of two things will happen:
1) the mods close it down (after banning some of the "offenders" in the thread)
or
2) the thread becomes a joke real soon because there is more + than - and/or the people taking the - seriously will get "shot down" by the fanbois dogpiling the thread with all kinds of accusations and "you just didn't understand it" BS.
@ Ryan L. - Yeah, the "skill" of the Devs to phrase stuff clearly is...non-existant. Or to put it another way - for a game as involved as they want it to be, you'd need some folks who can really "code" sentences...aka a programmer or a mathematician (or at least someone with basic logic skills and a grasp of language and its meanings).
The big problem they have is that they can not clearly separate fluff from rules-text. The result is something that is kind of neither...neither good fluff nor a clear rule. So in other words - failed on all accounts.
Funny thing is, if the development crew wasn't playing things so close to the cbest and actually gave either previews or had some sort of open playtest, the rules issues could have been addressed long before it got to this point.
Instead we get this....mediocre attempt.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;862281Sarcasm, friend.
Ah, my bad.
I always get a little smirk from how the designers put such store in how the game "realistically" emulates ancient and classical cultures but have a fan base that freaks out over (mostly female) nudity where many of the cultures emulated didn't have modern western hang ups about it.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/10/29/paradox-white-wolf/
Quote from: Nexus;862347http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/10/29/paradox-white-wolf/
Yeah that is on a separate thread in this site. Though I wish Paradox would dump Onyx Path.
Quote from: Nexus;862345I always get a little smirk from how the designers put such store in how the game "realistically" emulates ancient and classical cultures but have a fan base that freaks out over (mostly female) nudity where many of the cultures emulated didn't have modern western hang ups about it.
Yeah. Even the listed modern inspiration for Exalted include many things that now seem taboo to Exalted fans.
Rather than clothing people, everyone should get naked and have fun; young and old; male and female; nobility and vagabond; warrior and wizard.
Spoiler
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O-l4Dwc60BE/VA7LxJIzM4I/AAAAAAAAwtE/LfHIkdSq7VI/s1600/009z_Conan_Gregory_Manchess.jpg)
Quote from: Iron_Rain;861920Ok, so rather than just let other people think for me and work myself up into a righteous fury over nothing... I just went through the PDF and counted up all the art. In my estimation (not including weapons and armor) there are roughly ~168 pieces of art in the book, not including weapons & armor.
There are
7 pieces of art I think are just objectively bad.
4 pieces of art I think where something weird happened that messed up the quality.
Things like the dude in the thong are IMO - silly, but not actually bad per se.
I'm a data analyst, not an artist, but this is just my opinion - 1 piece of art in 15 needs replaced or fixed. Of course, one could make the argument that some of the art isn't necessarily doing what it should, and certainly, it looks like there was one main style of art with a few other dramatically different styles peppered in as well.
Not as bad as I thought.
I can remember more than 11 pieces of art without having read the non mechanical chapters, or checking the PDF.
Quote from: Nexus;862189It does seem like 4th Edition fans really like this game in general. At least the combat system.
I am by no means a 4e fan, as stated in the minus thread, and I like the combat system. At its core, it reminds me of what a Bulgarian homebrew system was doing. It was created by people I practiced martial arts with at the time, in order to represent extremely competent mortal characters, in the 2003 or so.
Well, except the homebrew was less than 10 pages long. But if it wasn't for it, I might have had more issues making sense of Ex3 combat system.
By the way, I like the Ex3 social system better.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;862301Funny thing is, if the development crew wasn't playing things so close to the cbest and actually gave either previews or had some sort of open playtest, the rules issues could have been addressed long before it got to this point.
Instead we get this....mediocre attempt.
I will never understand NDAs for RPGs. No one is going to steal Onyx Path's 'fly new RPG technology'. And the cry of "But then we have to sift through all the complaints! And that'll make it baaaaad!" No, motherfuckers, you don't! You can sift through exactly what criticism you want. And if you know that certain people (like Jon Chung, say) have an eye towards
useful criticism, you can privilege that more than some random guy screaming "EXLATED 3 wIll SUXXX00RS! D3ath to OP!!!!"
The leak was actually the best thing that could have happened to Ex3, if they'd bothered to listen to criticism of it. Instead they just pulled a Kevin Bacon, screaming "ALL IS WELL!!!" at the top of their lungs.
Don't get me wrong, I like the system. I have been playing the system. I will continue playing the system. It is an improvement over 2E. But it is not the third coming that was being bandied about. And it could have been BETTER.
Quote from: Skywalker;862359Yeah. Even the listed modern inspiration for Exalted include many things that now seem taboo to Exalted fans.
Rather than clothing people, everyone should get naked and have fun; young and old; male and female; nobility and vagabond; warrior and wizard.
Cool pic! Is that an early piece or more modern?
Quote from: Baron Opal;862421Cool pic! Is that an early piece or more modern?
It's of the Conan story Red Nails. Seemed very Exalted to me.
Quote from: Michael Gray;862396It is an improvement over 2E. But it is not the third coming that was being bandied about. And it could have been BETTER.
This is accurate. I would play 3e over 2e despite how much criticism I may give it. But the feeling of wasted opportunity mixed with knowing that there needs to be more books to round out 3e yet (and quality tends to drop over time) has left a bad taste in my mouth.
Quote from: AsenRG;862393I
I am by no means a 4e fan, as stated in the minus thread, and I like the combat system.
Okay, But I didn't say only fans of 4th Ed DnD like the combat system just that it seems very popular among fans of that particular game. One of the developers (Holden, I believe) has mentioned that a similar feel was something they were going for so I guess that succeeded in that for allot of folks.
Offered without comment.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769166-Isator-Levi-reads-Exalted-Third-Edition
Quote from: Nexus;862502Offered without comment.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769166-Isator-Levi-reads-Exalted-Third-Edition
I can't parse his lack of context or paragraphs.
It reads like a meth head's run on sentence.
Quote from: Nexus;862502Offered without comment.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769166-Isator-Levi-reads-Exalted-Third-Edition
I thought I was god awful at grammar. He needs to space out a bit so people can understand him. Not even making shit up. Just several posts that is a wall of useless text. Talk about all noise and no signal.
Last if you say something is intriguing please give people some context on what is intriguing. Just don't say, "This is intriguing," and just leave it as that. I like to know what is intriguing.
Holy cow, that is the platonic ideal of the TL;DR post. Add a section break somewhere, sir.
Not directly Exalted related but when you take into account who was banned, who did the banning its seems dodgy .
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769225-Infraction-for-notanautomaton-6)-Two-Week-Ban
That has to be the gentlest personal attack in history.
Quote from: Ryan L.;862556That has to be the gentlest personal attack in history.
RPGNet makes a lot more sense when you realize that it's a government of moderators, not of rules. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;862558RPGNet makes a lot more sense when you realize that it's a government of moderators, not of rules. :)
Really? I always thought that they had taken all the wrong lessons from Animal Farm.
Quote from: Snowman0147;862508I thought I was god awful at grammar. He needs to space out a bit so people can understand him. Not even making shit up. Just several posts that is a wall of useless text. Talk about all noise and no signal.
Last if you say something is intriguing please give people some context on what is intriguing. Just don't say, "This is intriguing," and just leave it as that. I like to know what is intriguing.
Am I like the only person who wanted to grab the poor fellow and scream "Breath!" Cuz, those have got to be some of the longest run on sentences I've ever seen. I got exhausted just reading them!
Quote from: Nexus;862553Not directly Exalted related but when you take into account who was banned, who did the banning its seems dodgy .
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769225-Infraction-for-notanautomaton-6)-Two-Week-Ban
So where's the attack? It's someone expressing his/her disinterest after seeing the result of all the work that was put into it. It wasn't even talking about any one person, it was more the product.
Unless, of course, Zeea was worried that he hurt Exalted's feelings...
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862567So where's the attack? It's someone expressing his/her disinterest after seeing the result of all the work that was put into it. It wasn't even talking about any one person, it was more the product.
Unless, of course, Zeea was worried that he hurt Exalted's feelings...
Notautomaton has probably had a target on his back since that first leak thread.
I noticed that as well...personal attack is interpreted very generously on rpg.net...especially if you "attack" some of the staff "personally". So if Mod X works for company Y and you say something like "I really think they have no idea how to format pdfs" then you are "personal attack"-ing that Mod. It's idiotic.
But if you say something like "Person Z is totally incompetent" than that is totally ok, even mods do that, if that person is not one of "the protected".
That's so far past double standards i'd call it ... well, i have no idea.
It really is bias-heaven over there.
And the funny thing is, they don't see it. They still think that they uphold the rules...well at least some of them do.
Also, in keeping with a lot of the Ex 3e devs shortcomings, the mod-staff seems to have no grasp on definitions...as proven by their use of the term personal-attack.
Anyway, i am positively suprised at how well the [Exalted -] thread is doing. So that's a plus at least. Even if they are way more lenient on thread-crapping in that thread. Because if you go into a + thread and post something negative you get a warning real quick...but nobody of the mods seem to patrol the - thread and warning all those fanbois who start arguing about persons complaints or just flat out post + stuff. But hey, i still take it :D
Quote from: Anglachel;862574I noticed that as well...personal attack is interpreted very generously on rpg.net...especially if you "attack" some of the staff "personally". So if Mod X works for company Y and you say something like "I really think they have no idea how to format pdfs" then you are "personal attack"-ing that Mod. It's idiotic.
But if you say something like "Person Z is totally incompetent" than that is totally ok, even mods do that, if that person is not one of "the protected".
That's so far past double standards i'd call it ... well, i have no idea.
It really is bias-heaven over there.
And the funny thing is, they don't see it. They still think that they uphold the rules...well at least some of them do.
Also, in keeping with a lot of the Ex 3e devs shortcomings, the mod-staff seems to have no grasp on definitions...as proven by their use of the term personal-attack.
Anyway, i am positively suprised at how well the [Exalted -] thread is doing. So that's a plus at least. Even if they are way more lenient on thread-crapping in that thread. Because if you go into a + thread and post something negative you get a warning real quick...but nobody of the mods seem to patrol the - thread and warning all those fanbois who start arguing about persons complaints or just flat out post + stuff. But hey, i still take it :D
Occasionally someone of the mod staff over there pulls their head out of their ass. Only to shove it back in when they realize how bad things have gotten.
And the second post in the Ex3- thread? Is by their own definition a thread crap and would get you dinged if the situation was reversed. And wasn't done by a freaking admin.
RPG.net moderation can really turn on a dime. Back before 5ed's release there were threads full of complete venom about its development with the fig leaf of them giving "suggestions" about how to improve the developing game. Then people posted the exact same comments after the release and there was a big rash of harsh bans. Similarly after Something Ellie's ban they seem to be getting much harsher at inflammatory leftist comments on political threads while at the same time there's a rise of completely arbitrary "bad fit" permabans for newbies for pretty mild stuff.
Quote from: Anglachel;862574Anyway, i am positively suprised at how well the [Exalted -] thread is doing. So that's a plus at least. Even if they are way more lenient on thread-crapping in that thread. Because if you go into a + thread and post something negative you get a warning real quick...but nobody of the mods seem to patrol the - thread and warning all those fanbois who start arguing about persons complaints or just flat out post + stuff. But hey, i still take it :D
One whole, I agree with you, but when you name your - thread "Why is everyone praising 3E?" you really are kind of asking for people to come into the thread to tell you why they are praising it.
Then again, the "Let's laugh at bad art thread" is unequivocally negative in intent, yet it is full of people coming in to say the art isn't that bad, so...
I've never played Exalted and heard lots of horror stories back in the day, but some of the less Anime ideas sound intriguing. I'm not really interested in any edition particularly, but while watching the slow motion train wreck that is the 3e launch, I've seen lots of comments that the new setting is really vibrant and exciting.
Can anyone who's seen the backer's .PDF give their opinion on whether it might be worth reading for those kinds of ideas? (If I ran it, it wouldn't be with their system, so system neutrality would be an important factor.)
Quote from: Majus;862627Can anyone who's seen the backer's .PDF give their opinion on whether it might be worth reading for those kinds of ideas? (If I ran it, it wouldn't be with their system, so system neutrality would be an important factor.)
Just wait for Godbound and spare yourself the trouble.
If you really want to play in the Exalted setting, track down a copy of the first edition core book and maybe scavenger sons. It's all you really need, most of the other books actually made the setting worse.
Disclaimer: I don't have the 3rd edition book. But seeing as they created even more Exalted subtypes, I can't see how it could possibly be any better than 1st edition.
Quote from: Luca;862637Just wait for Godbound and spare yourself the trouble.
If you really want to play in the Exalted setting, track down a copy of the first edition core book and maybe scavenger sons. It's all you really need, most of the other books actually made the setting worse.
Disclaimer: I don't have the 3rd edition book. But seeing as they created even more Exalted subtypes, I can't see how it could possibly be any better than 1st edition.
I would strongly second this.
Even including the brief descriptions of the Exalted (which are not comprehensive as not all of the new Exalted types are covered), the actual setting material in EX3 barely takes up 60 pages. While I like some of the setting changes, someone trying to use the Exalted setting of Creation would be much better off using a previous edition and the ample setting material published there.
It would probably be cheaper, too, as you should be able to find physical copies of those books for very little money. I recently completed my 1st Edition collection and I was typically paying no more than $10 a book even for hardbacks in practically new condition. The EX3 PDF alone will probably run $30.
Quote from: Brand55;862640I would strongly second this.
Even including the brief descriptions of the Exalted (which are not comprehensive as not all of the new Exalted types are covered), the actual setting material in EX3 barely takes up 60 pages.
60 pages?
And I wonder how much of that is fiction.
So most of the behemoth is crunch. I guess the antagonist list is somewhere in the middle.
And some of these guys are the same ones that still go on about "Bullet stopping" Hero System books.
Quote from: Nexus;86264160 pages?
And I wonder how much of that is fiction.
So most of the behemoth is crunch. I guess the antagonist list is somewhere in the middle.
And some of these guys are the same ones that still go on about "Bullet stopping" Hero System books.
I was trying to account for fiction, art, etc. Here's how it breaks down from the Table of Contents:
Introduction - 20
Chapter One: The Exalted - 34
Chapter Two: The Age of Sorrows - 58
Chapter Three: Character Creation - 120
Chapter Four: Traits - 134
Chapter Five: Systems and Conflict - 152
Chapter Six: Charms - 250
Chapter Seven: Martial Arts & Sorcery - 426
Chapter Eight: Antagonists - 494
Chapter Nine: The Grand Panoply - 578
Outro - 630
So disregarding stuff like "The Grand Panoply" (which is an equipment chapter but does have a few words on the monetary system), the primary setting information lies in Chapters 1 and 2, pages 34 to 119. But there is chapter fiction and several full-page or almost-full-page art pieces that cut that down a bit. Looking over the PDF again, I'd guess the real number of pages of information ends up being closer to 70 or so. That would probably be stretched a bit further with information mined from the Grand Panoply and Antagonists chapters, but it would still fall well short of what you could get out of an older core book and even a single setting sourcebook.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769059-Exalted-3E-What-are-your-favorite-parts-that-aren-t-artwork-or-crunch
I wonder how complaints will be treated on this thread as opposed to boosters on the "-" thread.
Quote from: Majus;862627I've never played Exalted and heard lots of horror stories back in the day, but some of the less Anime ideas sound intriguing. I'm not really interested in any edition particularly, but while watching the slow motion train wreck that is the 3e launch, I've seen lots of comments that the new setting is really vibrant and exciting.
Can anyone who's seen the backer's .PDF give their opinion on whether it might be worth reading for those kinds of ideas? (If I ran it, it wouldn't be with their system, so system neutrality would be an important factor.)
If you liked the anime feel (depending on how you define that) I wouldn't bother with 3rd edition as apparently that has become Of The Devil and something that polluted that Deep Classical Mythological sword and sorcery feel the game was always meant to have.
You know, like that time Hercules and Conan rode their flying kung fu T-Rexes into battle against soul eating fairies from the Chaosphere . *eye roll*
Quote from: Brand55;862643I was trying to account for fiction, art, etc. Here's how it breaks down from the Table of Contents:
Introduction - 20
Chapter One: The Exalted - 34
Chapter Two: The Age of Sorrows - 58
Chapter Three: Character Creation - 120
Chapter Four: Traits - 134
Chapter Five: Systems and Conflict - 152
Chapter Six: Charms - 250
Chapter Seven: Martial Arts & Sorcery - 426
Chapter Eight: Antagonists - 494
Chapter Nine: The Grand Panoply - 578
Outro - 630
So disregarding stuff like "The Grand Panoply" (which is an equipment chapter but does have a few words on the monetary system), the primary setting information lies in Chapters 1 and 2, pages 34 to 119. But there is chapter fiction and several full-page or almost-full-page art pieces that cut that down a bit. Looking over the PDF again, I'd guess the real number of pages of information ends up being closer to 70 or so. That would probably be stretched a bit further with information mined from the Grand Panoply and Antagonists chapters, but it would still fall well short of what you could get out of an older core book and even a single setting sourcebook.
Thanks for the breakdown.
Quote from: Ryan L.;862556That has to be the gentlest personal attack in history.
(http://i.imgur.com/qeSOZED.gif)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862567Am I like the only person who wanted to grab the poor fellow and scream "Breath!" Cuz, those have got to be some of the longest run on sentences I've ever seen. I got exhausted just reading them!
It was really stream of consciousness. I gave up trying to read it about half way though the the first post. Quendalon's enthusiastic "Thanks for posting this!" was... well it was something in light of the fact most of seemed to find it unreadable. But I guess demonstrating proper devotion should be rewarded.
QuoteUnless, of course, Zeea was worried that he hurt Exalted's feelings...
Zeea seems to have become one of the priesthood.
Quote from: Snowman0147;862349Yeah that is on a separate thread in this site. Though I wish Paradox would dump Onyx Path.
Sorry, I didn't see the other thread until after I posted that .
Quote from: Skywalker;862359Yeah. Even the listed modern inspiration for Exalted include many things that now seem taboo to Exalted fans.
Rather than clothing people, everyone should get naked and have fun; young and old; male and female; nobility and vagabond; warrior and wizard.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O-l4Dwc60BE/VA7LxJIzM4I/AAAAAAAAwtE/LfHIkdSq7VI/s1600/009z_Conan_Gregory_Manchess.jpg]
Good example, but of course an illustration like that could get enough bricks shat to rebuild the pyramids. Unless you replaced the women with men that it might be awesome.
Quote from: Charles Gray;19524971I was most happy with Ma-Ha-Suchi, it seemed that as 2E rolled around, there was an ongoing contest to "See how we can make him even more horrible." It really reduced him to "okay, this dude is the final boss fight for the East" and I'm happy to see a character that you could actually work with without having to cross the moral even horizon by not totally killing him the first moment you get.
Ma-Ha Suchi now with 100 percent less conflict and interest.
What is about everyone having to be "someone you can work with (and feel good about it)? Some actual antagonists and villains aren't a bad thing in a game that's going to be anything but a Civ variant played on paper.
Quote from: Luca;862637Just wait for Godbound and spare yourself the trouble.
Quote from: Brand55;862640I would strongly second this.
Thanks both! I've had a quick look at the Godhound beta and it seems like it would do the trick nicely!
I also appreciate the tips on the previous editions. To be honest, I'm not committed to the idea of running Exalted necessarily, but was interested to hear that people were complimenting the new setting. I'm always up for hearing about interesting environments to game in, so was wondering what people thought of the new ideas.
Quote from: Nexus;862677If you liked the anime feel (depending on how you define that) I wouldn't bother with 3rd edition...
You know, like that time Hercules and Conan rode their flying kung fu T-Rexes into battle against soul eating fairies from the Chaosphere . *eye roll*
Oh yeah, that's one of my favourite Conan stories... :D
To be honest, though, I live in Hong Kong, with ample access to wuxia influences and didn't find that aspect of Exalted particularly captivating. I was also never the biggest fan of Anime, so I'd be more interested in taking a more classical approach anyway (Conan, Beowulf, Cuchulain, that kind of thing). Still, I appreciate the insight!
I haven't read the setting portion of the book and I avoid the signature characters like the plague so what does this mean.
QuoteVolfer, the new Dawn sig. That his 'goods' are personally approved by the Scarlet Empress was a nice touch. I mean, if you're going into a teahouse filled with Mnemon House Guards, that's a damn good way of picking a fight.
If it means what I think it means shouldn't the Rpgnet fovum being going wild with calls of sexism in the game. He's also the one wearing the thong in public isn't he?
To clarify the above quote is from the thread nexus lined above.
Quote from: Ryan L.;862717I haven't read the setting portion of the book and I avoid the signature characters like the plague so what does this mean.
If it means what I think it means shouldn't the Rpgnet fovum being going wild with calls of sexism in the game. He's also the one wearing the thong in public isn't he?
To clarify the above quote is from the thread nexus lined above.
Its referring to this picture
(http://i.imgur.com/W0C37dx.jpg)
That's the Dawn sig, Volfer and the symbol on his thong is the Imperial seal which could be seen as implying that his junk is personally approved and claimed by the Empress. The picture has frequently touted as being "awesome" (and doesn't make anyone embarrassed on the bus). It is not sexist (or silly, impractical, etc) because Volfer is a male. Volfer appears to be allergic to shirts in general. As I said earlier, if he was female in a similar pose, dress or lack thereof, you'd see the flames from moon. I there's been griping about the new Night caste having bare legs in an other wise modest wardrobe and they've been bitching about Harmonious Jade for years
Quote from: Majus;862709Thanks both! I've had a quick look at the Godhound beta and it seems like it would do the trick nicely!
I also appreciate the tips on the previous editions. To be honest, I'm not committed to the idea of running Exalted necessarily, but was interested to hear that people were complimenting the new setting. I'm always up for hearing about interesting environments to game in, so was wondering what people thought of the new ideas.
Many of the setting changes with EX3 are pretty good (apart from adding 500 quadrillion new Exalted types; that really sucks, IMO). It's simply a matter of bang for your buck. You'll get more out of the older stuff right now for a lot less, and you could always add in things like the Dreaming Sea from the new edition if you wanted to.
So far only one new thing has interested me setting wise (Palanquin) and that's mainly because it looks cool. The setting has gotten vastly bigger and the characters power level notched back so, in effect they feel smaller.
Adding a bunch of new types contributes to that feeling. "Exalted" started to feel synonymous with "adventurer" in D and D not like some epic title. They're allot of moderately large fish in a huge pond. I guess that goes with the "Its always been a game about being glowing Conan, not superhumans!" angle. The opening art and, AIU, the opening fiction depicts of teeming slum, after all. WoD with more of a special effects budget it is.
The new background/history seems to take the marginalization of the Solars a little further. Which should please the more deeply butthurt fans of the other splats, though might not be enough for the ones that piss and moan anytime Solars are actually depicted as the most powerful of the Exalted or even needed or relevant to the setting aside from being whack a mole targets for the Wyldhunt.
Quote from: Brand55;862728Many of the setting changes with EX3 are pretty good (apart from adding 500 quadrillion new Exalted types; that really sucks, IMO).
I hope they were being tongue in cheek about the Luminals being the results of a joke/bet about adding Prometheans to Creation.
I believe they are serious with that one Nexus.
Quote from: Nexus;86264160 pages?
And I wonder how much of that is fiction.
So most of the behemoth is crunch. I guess the antagonist list is somewhere in the middle.
And some of these guys are the same ones that still go on about "Bullet stopping" Hero System books.
The same ones who say Hero System requires too much bookkeeping and math. ;)
JG
At least Hero system allows you to make up powers. Hell hero handles a lot of settings and genres so of course the book is massive.
Exalted only covers one setting and you are stuck with those charms.
Quote from: James Gillen;862768The same ones who say Hero System requires too much bookkeeping and math. ;)
JG
It uses fractions and multipliers of said math, so yes, it is pretty heavy on the book keeping. However, it's still a much better and more solidly put together game engine, which as someone just pointed out doesn't limit you, but rather if you can figure it out, can pretty much allow you to make anything in any type of setting.
Exalted is a mess. A GM hating, game breaking, barely playable without hand waving mess.
Quote from: James Gillen;862768The same ones who say Hero System requires too much bookkeeping and math. ;)
JG
I stopped trying to make sense of that long ago. It was either that or start taking medication.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862781It uses fractions and multipliers of said math, so yes, it is pretty heavy on the book keeping.
it isn't that Hero System is simple or "rules light" but the hypocrisy of complaining about its length and complexity while praising Exalted as if it was a breeze particularly late 2nd and 3rd edition . And frankly, compared to juggling hundreds of different rules exception packets I do think Hero is simpler.
Quote from: Nexus;862783And frankly, compared to juggling hundreds of different rules exception packets I do think Hero is simpler.
More straightforward, anyway.
Quote from: Nexus;862783it isn't that Hero System is simple or "rules light" but the hypocrisy of complaining about its length and complexity while praising Exalted as if it was a breeze particularly late 2nd and 3rd edition . And frankly, compared to juggling hundreds of different rules exception packets I do think Hero is simpler.
Oh, I agree completely. Charms are worse than D&D Spells, which were the original exclusionary rules blocks, that don't interact with the rest of the system.
Quote from: Brand55;862728Many of the setting changes with EX3 are pretty good (apart from adding 500 quadrillion new Exalted types; that really sucks, IMO). It's simply a matter of bang for your buck.
Quote from: Nexus;862733So far only one new thing has interested me setting wise (Palanquin) and that's mainly because it looks cool. The setting has gotten vastly bigger and the characters power level notched back so, in effect they feel smaller.
Thanks both. I think I'll see if I can get hold of some of the previous editions then and have a rummage around. Appreciate your responses!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862781Exalted is a mess. A GM hating, game breaking, barely playable without hand waving mess.
Reviewers have been saying that "Exalted is a... game... playable" in many dynamic, exciting ways!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862786Oh, I agree completely. Charms are worse than D&D Spells, which were the original exclusionary rules blocks, that don't interact with the rest of the system.
Agreed, I like a lot of crunchy systems (3.5/PF, Hero System) and I like some of the concepts in Exalted as far as setting, but trying to read through charms was not fun for me at all. I started to try slogging through them and after that, well, let us say I'm not interested in actually trying to run the game, not even sure about playing it for that matter.
Quote from: Nexus;862437Okay, But I didn't say only fans of 4th Ed DnD like the combat system just that it seems very popular among fans of that particular game. One of the developers (Holden, I believe) has mentioned that a similar feel was something they were going for so I guess that succeeded in that for allot of folks.
Well, I'm seriously glad they didn't succeed for me:D!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862786Oh, I agree completely. Charms are worse than D&D Spells, which were the original exclusionary rules blocks, that don't interact with the rest of the system.
I wouldn't say worse;).
Also, I've just wrote a playtest review (http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2015/11/exalted-3e-first-sessions-went-on-first.html) of Exalted 3e that's as balanced as possible.
Quote from: AsenRG;862902I wouldn't say worse;).
I would, but it's a personal thing, in Exalted every single major humanoid creature, from Exalt to Gods and Demons and some out and out inhuman monsters has Charms. And unlike D&D in which each spell doesn't interact with each other, in fact, you can't combine them in any meaningful way, in Exalted they can be. And worse, they had some unintended effects as written.
Yeah combos are pretty broken and can destroy the game.
Quote from: Majus;862809Reviewers have been saying that "Exalted is a... game... playable" in many dynamic, exciting ways!
Ellipsis. The salesman's best friend. :D
JG
Quote from: Majus;862809Reviewers have been saying that "Exalted is a... game... playable" in many dynamic, exciting ways!
Do you have links?
I've decided to just kludge together my own version of Exalted using the parts of each edition I like most..
Most of it's going to be based on 1st edition and the Power Combat version of the system introduced in the 1st Ed Players Guide. Limiting the game to the corebook will also avoid the power creep of the supplements and also the confusion of trying to run a multi-exalted game..
I'll probably steal the Sorcery and Item Creation system of 3rd edition as those are actually pretty cool (though I'll cut down the number of Charms needed to make artifacts) and Evocations as well.
As for avoiding the issue of "Paranoia Combat" (i.e. the idea that combat revolves around running your opponent out of Essence and them killing them with one huge attack) I'm going to borrow a concept from an indie RPG called "Shonen Final Burst".
SFB was of course a system dedicated to recreating Shonen fights, it was overly complicated but it introduced this concept of "Health Barriers".
Basically, your character had a number of Health levels, but they were broken up by "Barriers". The Barriers prevented your character from being killed by any one attack...
For example, let's say you have 7 Health levels divided up by three barriers... so 2/3/2
If the opponent hits you for only 1 point of damage, you still have 1 point left in that first "Barrier" if the next hit does 5 points of damage, it only eliminates the next health level and knocks you down to the next Barrier..
In this way, it will take at least 3 successful attacks to kill your character rather than one god strike that just kills someone outright.
Ox-body will just add an additional Health level to each Barrier, and "Boss" Enemies might have more than 3 Barriers to make a fight more epic, and again, prevent them from being killed by 1 single attack.
I'm beginning to think I've drastically misunderstood the Ex3 combat system. Its one area of the game that getting almost universal positive response (at least that I've seen) and I can't stand it. It feels slow, cumbersome and annoyingly meta game and "disassociated" (if I'm using the term correctly).
But allot of people love it, even a couple of people in my own group so I wonder.
Did they play it? No there is a reason I ask that because it may sound good on paper while in practice it is all kinds of bad.
The first beta on Dark Heresy 2.0 is a good example of it. I told my friends of the shitty combat mechanics and they were like, "It can't be that bad Snowman." Well their minds were change after a hour, during the middle of combat, to figure out rate of fire rules. I had to cheat the system a bit just to end it quickly after that debate. Safe to say they wanted the tried and true rules after that.
Quote from: Snowman0147;863078Did they play it? No there is a reason I ask that because it may sound good on paper while in practice it is all kinds of bad.
The first beta on Dark Heresy 2.0 is a good example of it. I told my friends of the shitty combat mechanics and they were like, "It can't be that bad Snowman." Well their minds were change after a hour, during the middle of combat, to figure out rate of fire rules. I had to cheat the system a bit just to end it quickly after that debate. Safe to say they wanted the tried and true rules after that.
The rave reviews largely appear to come from people that have played it. I'm baffled by them but I guess I am far outside the target audience in that regard .
I've been waiting for someone to mention that it undermine the Solar concept a great deal to have them by the only group that was not only wiped out to a member at the "height" of their power far more easily than the someone could say, toppled the Realm but have also been the targets of a fairly easy game of Whack a mole for millennia to have their "glorious" return met with a resounding "Meh." as Creation has been trundling along just fine without them.
But that really seems to be what a majority or at least a vocal minority.
So I expect that there that will be the deal if there's ever an Exalted 4th. Each edition seems shaped by whoever griped out the loudest out the last one and there's been a lot of moaning about "Solar Wank" (which seems to be even implying they're important or powerful) this time around. They've already removed any hint of ambiguity about the Usurpation but I guess there will never be enough crap smeared on the Solars for some.
The game's never been about being fair and everyone running , hand in hand, together across the finish line in some kind of power race But now you get people griping because -mortals- fall short.
Then turn around and take pot shots at games like D and D where "everyone" is on a theoretically and conceptually level playing field.
Quote from: Nexus;863081The rave reviews largely appear to come from people that have played it. I'm baffled by them but I guess I am far outside the target audience in that regard .
It's a very sound and good system for those who have the time to invest in it. I just don't have the time anymore in my day to invest in a combat system which is that involved.
Shadowrun 5th edition combat is my limit now for complicated but cool combat systems...and I'm not going to throw that out of my head to make room for Exalted 3...
It is not in the target audience who were hoping for something more like 1st edition, it's 2nd edition Exalted amped up, 4th edition style Dungeons and Dragons.
4th ed has a great sound combat system too, but it turned a lot of people off...However the people who love it? They fucking love it.
I have a feeling 3rd Exalted is the same way. The people it's designed for absolutely love it. But for folks like me who use Savage Worlds as their go to system for pick up games? It's about the furthest thing in the world I want to spend my time learning and mastering.
If I were 23 again, I'd probably love it as well.
Yeah, the combat system works but I can't find anything else positive to say about it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862917I would, but it's a personal thing, in Exalted every single major humanoid creature, from Exalt to Gods and Demons and some out and out inhuman monsters has Charms. And unlike D&D in which each spell doesn't interact with each other, in fact, you can't combine them in any meaningful way, in Exalted they can be. And worse, they had some unintended effects as written.
Spells don't interact with each other? Since when:D?
Quote from: Nexus;863074I'm beginning to think I've drastically misunderstood the Ex3 combat system. Its one area of the game that getting almost universal positive response (at least that I've seen) and I can't stand it. It feels slow, cumbersome and annoyingly meta game and "disassociated" (if I'm using the term correctly).
But allot of people love it, even a couple of people in my own group so I wonder.
Yeah, I think you might have misunderstood it. One of my players didn't understand it either during the first fight. After that, a few minutes of explaining and demonstration were enough.
Quote from: Snowman0147;863078Did they play it? No there is a reason I ask that because it may sound good on paper while in practice it is all kinds of bad.
I've run it. Does that count:)?
Quote from: Nexus;863082Each edition seems shaped by whoever griped out the loudest out the last one
To be fair, that's far from exclusive to Exalted;)!
Quote from: Nexus;863128Yeah, the combat system works but I can't find anything else positive to say about it.
Serious question: did you read my review?
Quote from: AsenRG;863184Spells don't interact with each other? Since when:D?
I can't think of a single character using 2 or more spells at the EXACT same time to get a new, often more power, sometimes unintended, effect.
Can you point to me which edition had Clerics or Magic Users use two spells from their own spell list at the exact same time?
Quote from: AsenRG;863184Yeah, I think you might have misunderstood it. One of my players didn't understand it either during the first fight. After that, a few minutes of explaining and demonstration were enough.
Ah, the 'You don't get it' defense. So explain it to us, please.
Quote from: AsenRG;863184I've run it. Does that count:)?
Once? Twice? For a year? Personally, I'll take someone's 'review' if they've run it regularly, something like once a week for about 90 days before I take them seriously.
Not saying you haven't. It's just playing three or four times, or even 10, doesn't always give the reviewer the right feel for how it works out. Not to mention that people seem to think that just because their dice aren't truly random, that should factor into the review.
Quote from: AsenRG;863184To be fair, that's far from exclusive to Exalted;)!
Maybe, but it's been the defining feature of Exalted, as opposed to other games.
Quote from: AsenRG;863184Serious question: did you read my review?
I did, and it didn't change anything for me as far as what I suspected of the combat system. From what I could tell, you didn't throw any serious combats at your players. Which is fine; not every session needs them. But it's those combats where my major reservations come into play.
I'll use an example using my own group. Say you've got five players. Three of them are fairly serious players and will likely have their character sheets and abilities memorized forwards and backwards (as best they can, anyway). The other two are more casual and will most likely need to look something up each time a Charm is used. This group of five starting Solars (with combat abilities ranging from very good to mediocre) faces off against a pack of 4 competent Dragon-Blooded and a bunch of mortal troops. I don't want to get hung up on power levels and exact numbers, so let's just call it a fairly even fight.
Now, here's the question. How long would you honestly expect that fight to take using EX3? Because I have an alternate system on my shelf in Exemplars & Eidolons (soon to be Godbound) that can do it in 10-20 minutes depending on just how descriptive my players and I want to be. There are other systems that could do it in similar times. But from what I've seen from EX3, I'd be shocked if my group could do that same fight in less than an hour given that even 1-on-1 fights can take upwards of 20 rounds if the dice are fickle.
Yeah, i also really do not see what is so great about the "new" combat system. It works more or less like the old ones but split in two...so you now have two seperate things to track, you also have two different things charms can influence (and do so - there are withering only and decisive only charms and everything in between).
The feel of the fights has not really changed. Sure, the first couple of fights with the new system feel different (at least a bit) but some sessions in, you (or at least i) just feel like always with Exalted combat...dice-orgies that last way too long. And i do not even have anything against handful of dice in general.
I think what some of you said is spot on - if you liked Exalted 1e and/or 2e well enough, then you'll likely also get along with (or even love) Ex 3e. If not, then all the rearranging and side-stepping that Ex 3e does will not help you.
Quote from: AsenRG;863184Yeah, I think you might have misunderstood it. One of my players didn't understand it either during the first fight. After that, a few minutes of explaining and demonstration were enough.
In the ensuing time I haven't seen any information that has lead me to believe that I've drastically misunderstood how the system is supposed to work. Its my 180 degree reaction to it that makes me wonder. By most standards, I shoud love it. Its crunchy and tactical and I don't seem speed and brevity as an innate good in a combat system. If the fights are fun they can be long. But this system just isn't fun for me.
QuoteSerious question: did you read my review?
Yep, and many others. Didn't change my view point. Recently I gave the system a shot. It was just like a feared it would be: slow, tedious and overly complex for no reward I could discern. It was the game kind of attrition grind as before except with something new to track that was very meta and jumped around allot during a turn. And this was with fairly simple characters not getting very deep into the pile of charms that interact with combat.
It felt endless and, frankly, dull. So vague I couldn't even really visualize what was happening so it felt like a allot fiddly disconnected dice rolling. On top of that there's allot of baked in assumptions that don't match up with my preferences in combat aesthetics so that didn't happen.
Quote from: Anglachel;863213I think what some of you said is spot on - if you liked Exalted 1e and/or 2e well enough, then you'll likely also get along with (or even love) Ex 3e. If not, then all the rearranging and side-stepping that Ex 3e does will not help you.
Yeah, the rules have a very strong “Preaching to the choir” vibe, specifically targeted to a certain subset of the Exalted fan-base. That's not a bad thing in and of itself but it does mean that those who fall too far outside the box aren't going to “get it”.
And before anyone pulls an Aliassudomo and tells me how stupid I was to expect anything different:1. The talk of "rebuilding from the ground up" did lead you to expect more than another polish job.
and 2. Expecting something similar didn't mean wanting to massively double down on the crunch and complexity.
Or at least you were dreading that, not looking forward to it.
Quote from: Nexus;863229And before anyone pulls an Aliassudomo and tells me how stupid I was to expect anything different:1. The talk of "rebuilding from the ground up" did lead you to expect more than another polish job.
Though I totally sympathise with you, there has also been plenty of warning of what Ex3 ended up like. The result feels very close to the Scrolls of Errata/Ink Monkeys work that seemed to take one step forward and two steps back on most issues with Ex2. And its practically identical to the leaked document.
Quote from: Skywalker;863232Though I totally sympathise with you, there has also been plenty of warning of what Ex3 ended up like. The result feels very close to the Scrolls of Errata/Ink Monkeys work that seemed to take one step forward and two steps back on most issues with Ex2. And its practically identical to the leaked document.
My dread rose substantially when it came out who was going to be in charge of 3rd. But I held out some hope that in working on a "new system" that even the crunch obsessed Ink Monkeys might have reigned it in. They weren't trying to patch a leaky dam this time around. And allot of balloon juice given to idea of "totally rebuilding the system".
But they did stick to their unusual method of fixing problems; throw tons of mechanics at it.
I didn't care about their fluff one way or the other. What I'd read of it felt meh for the most part.
The leak sealed the deal. I never expected that Backer copy (not yet the final product. This thing has more Forms than a DBZ villain) to be very different at all from the leaks.
Hell, they added some more charms. My cynical side almost thinks it was a deliberate "Fuck you" at detractors.
So, no, by the time of the post second leak until the backer copy I wasn't surprised anymore. Just very disappointed and frustrated. The anger came from the OP staff bad attitudes through this little fiasco and the way rpg.net's moderation structure facilitated it.
Cool. My reaction has been similar.
A current combat example on TBP (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769486-Exalted-3e-Write-a-combat-example-that-illustrates-the-Ex3-combat-engine)
I've had a playtest pbp thing going on for a while. It can be found here (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769070-Exalted-3-%96-The-Fight-for-a-Better-Understanding). That's the OOC thread but it can get you to the IC thread.
My thoughts on it so far. I'm glad I started with basic fights with no/very little essence use on my side of things. I don't think I could run this satisfactorily at the table. It's too complex and the rules organization is not very good despite what some TBP posters say.
Ile be doing social interactions and Essence on essence fights next and I kind of dread it.
Just idle musing but maybe they should have gone full on meta for the combat system. Withering attacks shouldn't have been referred to as "attacks" as mechanically and narrative they're of a roll to determine how much impact your character and advantages (strength, weapon, armor, etc) has on the combat scene and pacing.
Not sure what to call them though, at least something other than "withering". and I agree with idea Initiative might have worked better as Momentum which seems to describe what it actually is better than Initiative a word that already has allot of baggage for most gamers.
I admit that's one of the things about the rules that looses me; that it seems to freely dance back and fourth between in setting and meta, often with an assumption that its obvious when it does so. The "Solars don't know they have charms and charms aren't an in game concept... except when they are."* is something of an example of something that just doesn't click for me. Though I can understand the desire to avoid the other end of the spectrum where every mechanic is in game that characters in the setting could write out their character sheets.
*and if they aren't why stick to the elaborate florid names for them? More practical names related to what they actually do would make it much easier for people like me to remember them.
Well, my campaign has fallen apart before we got to any substantial combat (i.e. not vs. battlegroups or mortals) or social influence. Three of five players didn't really like the setting that much, and didn't really make characters that interacted well with the setting. Then again, if you're in the Frozen North with a whole bunch of ghost vikings, your guy who wants to start the Olympics might not be the best fit. Oh well, it's not for everyone. What we did do worked, and worked pretty well, but I feel like we had just started scratching the surface. We're starting a side game with some different people than the main group. A more in-depth examination of stuff will have to wait until then.
A few simple questions (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769670-Exalted-3E-Simple-Questions)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;863209I can't think of a single character using 2 or more spells at the EXACT same time to get a new, often more power, sometimes unintended, effect.
Can you point to me which edition had Clerics or Magic Users use two spells from their own spell list at the exact same time?
It doesn't need to be "exact same". You can have them continuing from previous time.
Some of the worst abuses from Exalted were with Scene-long charms, too.
As for how spells interact...you've never used Stone to Mud, followed by Mud to Stone while your enemies are in the mud? Seriously :D?
QuoteAh, the 'You don't get it' defense. So explain it to us, please.
I can try, but probably not in the way we explained to my player. Hint, it would require video. Swords wouldn't be amiss, either.
Still, read the explanation I wrote for Nexus.
http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2015/11/what-does-exalted-3e-combat-system.html
QuoteOnce? Twice? For a year? Personally, I'll take someone's 'review' if they've run it regularly, something like once a week for about 90 days before I take them seriously.
Shrug. With two sessions? More than almost anyone who started playing the leak, was a beta-tester, or was in the development team.
QuoteNot saying you haven't. It's just playing three or four times, or even 10, doesn't always give the reviewer the right feel for how it works out. Not to mention that people seem to think that just because their dice aren't truly random, that should factor into the review.
Once a week for 90 days is 12 times, 13 at most, BTW. Obviously 3 more sessions matter.
QuoteMaybe, but it's been the defining feature of Exalted, as opposed to other games.
Exalted, and a few even more popular systems...but this tangent's getting boring:).
Quote from: Brand55;863211I did, and it didn't change anything for me as far as what I suspected of the combat system. From what I could tell, you didn't throw any serious combats at your players. Which is fine; not every session needs them. But it's those combats where my major reservations come into play.
:D
That's funny. The enemy they fought was a Dawn Caste Solar with Supernal Martial Arts. What this means is that my players, together, had less combat-related Charms than her alone, since she had her whole style already.
They just got above average rolls, and managed to start hurting her in the second round;). And then they started talking, and ran because everyone's anima banner was flaring, except the Night's banner. And this is a city with enough Dragon-Blooded present.
QuoteI'll use an example using my own group. Say you've got five players. Three of them are fairly serious players and will likely have their character sheets and abilities memorized forwards and backwards (as best they can, anyway). The other two are more casual and will most likely need to look something up each time a Charm is used. This group of five starting Solars (with combat abilities ranging from very good to mediocre) faces off against a pack of 4 competent Dragon-Blooded and a bunch of mortal troops. I don't want to get hung up on power levels and exact numbers, so let's just call it a fairly even fight.
Now, here's the question. How long would you honestly expect that fight to take using EX3? Because I have an alternate system on my shelf in Exemplars & Eidolons (soon to be Godbound) that can do it in 10-20 minutes depending on just how descriptive my players and I want to be. There are other systems that could do it in similar times. But from what I've seen from EX3, I'd be shocked if my group could do that same fight in less than an hour given that even 1-on-1 fights can take upwards of 20 rounds if the dice are fickle.
I don't know, but my group didn't know their character sheets. The above fight still didn't last that long.
BTW, I like Exemplars and Eidolons;). If you want something like it? Nothing wrong with that. It's just that you don't want the current edition of Exalted, or any other rules-heavy game with discreet powers, for that matter.
And before even the KS for Ex3, my clearly voiced opinion was that the next edition of Exalted should tend towards rules-light. The developers didn't even consider it, for all I know, but I did make my opinion clear.
It's just that I quite like the current edition as it is. I might have preferred a more rules-light approach, but I'm not unhappy as it is.
Quote from: Nexus;863229In the ensuing time I haven't seen any information that has lead me to believe that I've drastically misunderstood how the system is supposed to work. Its my 180 degree reaction to it that makes me wonder. By most standards, I shoud love it. Its crunchy and tactical and I don't seem speed and brevity as an innate good in a combat system. If the fights are fun they can be long. But this system just isn't fun for me.
Then it's possible that Exalted 3e is to you what D&D 4e was for me:).
Seriously, the part in bold? That's what I said about 4e, more than once. I like tactics, I play rules-heavy systems just as readily as rules-light (GURPS 4e is to me the heavy side of rules-medium), I don't mind long fights (I like Legends of the Wulin, and that's much longer).
I will, however, try to explain how I see Ex3, and why I don't see it as a meta-heavy system, as you seem to.
QuoteRecently I gave the system a shot. It was just like a feared it would be: slow, tedious and overly complex for no reward I could discern. It was the game kind of attrition grind as before except with something new to track that was very meta and jumped around allot during a turn. And this was with fairly simple characters not getting very deep into the pile of charms that interact with combat.
It felt endless and, frankly, dull. So vague I couldn't even really visualize what was happening so it felt like a allot fiddly disconnected dice rolling. On top of that there's allot of baked in assumptions that don't match up with my preferences in combat aesthetics so that didn't happen.
Also something I've said about D&D 4e, after we gave it a shot.
QuoteAnd before anyone pulls an Aliassudomo and tells me how stupid I was to expect anything different:1. The talk of "rebuilding from the ground up" did lead you to expect more than another polish job.
and 2. Expecting something similar didn't mean wanting to massively double down on the crunch and complexity.
Or at least you were dreading that, not looking forward to it.
I didn't expect any changes in that direction since we discussed "what would you want in a hypothetical Ex3" thread on TBP, no. In this regard, I was better off than you. You didn't know what you're going to get. I knew more or less what
kind of game I'm going to get, and ended up getting more than I expected:D!
Quote from: Nexus;863292Just idle musing but maybe they should have gone full on meta for the combat system. Withering attacks shouldn't have been referred to as "attacks" as mechanically and narrative they're of a roll to determine how much impact your character and advantages (strength, weapon, armor, etc) has on the combat scene and pacing.
Not sure what to call them though, at least something other than "withering". and I agree with idea Initiative might have worked better as Momentum which seems to describe what it actually is better than Initiative a word that already has allot of baggage for most gamers.
I admit that's one of the things about the rules that looses me; that it seems to freely dance back and fourth between in setting and meta, often with an assumption that its obvious when it does so.
Fine...
First, "withering" is a choice of words we laughed a lot at, since it's funnier when you translate it in Bulgarian.
Second, your main problem with the system, as I see it, is that you can't get over the hurdle of "why is this attack withering, and this one decisive".
The answer is, because the enemy is not static, and can be in a better or worse position.
http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2015/11/what-does-exalted-3e-combat-system.html
Quote from: AsenRG;863328:D
That's funny. The enemy they fought was a Dawn Caste Solar with Supernal Martial Arts. What this means is that my players, together, had less combat-related Charms than her alone, since she had her whole style already.
They just got above average rolls, and managed to start hurting her in the second round;). And then they started talking, and ran because everyone's anima banner was flaring, except the Night's banner. And this is a city with enough Dragon-Blooded present.
Yet there was just a single opponent, and from what I understand numbers are extremely important in EX3's combat system. But that wasn't my main point. Running one or even two antagonists at a time doesn't seem to be a huge problem. In fact, I'd say EX3 seems great for small fights. My concern is with large conflicts--the sorts of large melees that should be par for the course with a game like Exalted. That's why my example to you had 8 or 9 Exalted and a bunch of mortal combatants involved. It's the sort of fight where there's a lot to keep track of and momentum can easily swing back and forth depending on tactics and how the dice act up.
Quote from: AsenRG;863328I don't know, but my group didn't know their character sheets. The above fight still didn't last that long.
BTW, I like Exemplars and Eidolons;). If you want something like it? Nothing wrong with that. It's just that you don't want the current edition of Exalted, or any other rules-heavy game with discreet powers, for that matter.
And before even the KS for Ex3, my clearly voiced opinion was that the next edition of Exalted should tend towards rules-light. The developers didn't even consider it, for all I know, but I did make my opinion clear.
It's just that I quite like the current edition as it is. I might have preferred a more rules-light approach, but I'm not unhappy as it is.
I'm fine with rules-heavy and discreet powers, but you're right in that the current edition of Exalted isn't for me. I'd be okay with something somewhere between E&E and Exalted with a few hundred powers/Charms, though I'd want them simplified and shortened for ease of use. Mostly, I'd want a system that moves quickly and cuts down on the record keeping on my end as GM.
But, yeah. All that aside, I'm glad your group is enjoying themselves so far.
Quote from: Nexus;863292Just idle musing but maybe they should have gone full on meta for the combat system. Withering attacks shouldn't have been referred to as "attacks" as mechanically and narrative they're of a roll to determine how much impact your character and advantages (strength, weapon, armor, etc) has on the combat scene and pacing.
Not sure what to call them though, at least something other than "withering". and I agree with idea Initiative might have worked better as Momentum which seems to describe what it actually is better than Initiative a word that already has allot of baggage for most gamers.
I admit that's one of the things about the rules that looses me; that it seems to freely dance back and fourth between in setting and meta, often with an assumption that its obvious when it does so. The "Solars don't know they have charms and charms aren't an in game concept... except when they are."* is something of an example of something that just doesn't click for me. Though I can understand the desire to avoid the other end of the spectrum where every mechanic is in game that characters in the setting could write out their character sheets.
*and if they aren't why stick to the elaborate florid names for them? More practical names related to what they actually do would make it much easier for people like me to remember them.
Which raises the overall question: If you want a "meta" or "story-based" approach to combat, if you want a coherent social combat system with real game effects, and if you want playable rules for running large groups in combat... why not just use FATE? ;)
JG
Quote from: Brand55;863339Yet there was just a single opponent, and from what I understand numbers are extremely important in EX3's combat system.
Which made it a 2 on 1 fight, hardly unbalanced given the charm supremacy:). That's everybody that showed up, though, so I couldn't set a bigger test.
Or it wouldn't have been unbalanced, except of course they crashed her before she had acted. My group is taking notes of the way I play my PCs in other games, I suspect:D!
QuoteBut that wasn't my main point. Running one or even two antagonists at a time doesn't seem to be a huge problem. In fact, I'd say EX3 seems great for small fights. My concern is with large conflicts--the sorts of large melees that should be par for the course with a game like Exalted.
Large conflicts become large due to battlegroups, I suspect. In the end-of-chapter fight, you'd have the Boss, the Dragon, the Bad Chick and the Extras.
QuoteThat's why my example to you had 8 or 9 Exalted and a bunch of mortal combatants involved. It's the sort of fight where there's a lot to keep track of and momentum can easily swing back and forth depending on tactics and how the dice act up.
Momentum swinging happens even in single fights, I've found.
But let me quote an Exalted GM I played 2e with, when I asked the same question. "There's now a crater where the place you fought in was, and everything around is covered in glass from the molten sand".
Seriously, 8 or 9 Exalted in one place is something that's not your everyday fight, nor should it be. Almost all fights in the Iliad are duels, as well as almost all fights in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".
QuoteI'm fine with rules-heavy and discreet powers, but you're right in that the current edition of Exalted isn't for me. I'd be okay with something somewhere between E&E and Exalted with a few hundred powers/Charms, though I'd want them simplified and shortened for ease of use. Mostly, I'd want a system that moves quickly and cuts down on the record keeping on my end as GM.
My records for the fight with the Dawn Exalted are, as follow:
"Base pool 11/7/5(+3), Unarmed, E1, WP5, 13/26 (7 committed for Presence Charm), MA Supernal, Black Claw style to the capstone including, Resistance charm, Rain of Obsidian Butterflies Control (obsidian claws for stunting)". That's as detailed an NPC as I need for a fight, BTW.
If it's too much, Exalted is too much, yeah.
It certainly compares favourably with my notes for NPCs in LotW, which is probably the heaviest I'm willing to go:).
QuoteBut, yeah. All that aside, I'm glad your group is enjoying themselves so far.
Likewise;).
Quote from: James Gillen;863341Which raises the overall question: If you want a "meta" or "story-based" approach to combat, if you want a coherent social combat system with real game effects, and if you want playable rules for running large groups in combat... why not just use FATE? ;)
JG
Except I just linked to a post explaining why Initiative isn't "meta", and for the fact that social influence is now more freeform, you have a point;).
If you do indeed want all of the things you listed, Fate is right there.
My eyes glazed over at the example combat, I'm afraid (*the florid writing style didn't help). I don't really see how that combat couldn't have been describing the process of pretty much any other system, but I'm sure it's more apparent in play.
I'm very surprised that the "Tripping Wally Stabs Himself" power names aren't an in-game conceit. For a meta description, they're really unwieldy and also rather genre specific (i.e. for a certain kind of Asian media); I thought the system modelled Homer / Beowulf / etc. as well?
'Reviewers have been saying that "Exalted is a... game... playable" in many dynamic, exciting ways!'
Quote from: James Gillen;862947Ellipsis. The salesman's best friend. :D
:D
Quote from: Nexus;862972Do you have links?
Nah, just being silly. Reminded me of this: http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2015/sep/09/legend-review-movie-marketing-false-advertising (http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2015/sep/09/legend-review-movie-marketing-false-advertising)
Quote from: Majus;863380I'm very surprised that the "Tripping Wally Stabs Himself" power names aren't an in-game conceit. For a meta description, they're really unwieldy and also rather genre specific (i.e. for a certain kind of Asian media); I thought the system modelled Homer / Beowulf / etc. as well?
Yeah, so? Do you think that European warriors didn't use fancy names for their techniques:D?
Quote from: List of techniques by Fiore dei LiberiWhole iron door
Woman's guard
Window guard
Woman's guard on the left
Long guard
Middle iron door
Short guard
Boar's tooth
Long tail guard
Two horned guard
Frontal crown
Middle boar's tooth guard
Damn, now I want to write a Martial Art cascade for Exalted using these names;).
Quote from: James Gillen;863341Which raises the overall question: If you want a "meta" or "story-based" approach to combat, if you want a coherent social combat system with real game effects, and if you want playable rules for running large groups in combat... why not just use FATE? ;)
JG
Apparently that's not what the majority* of the fans want. They want something very tactical and crunch heavy where mechanical choices "mean something". They want the hundreds of little fiddley widgets driven by exception based design.
*read that as the most vocal, the current Alpha fans/developers, etc as you like.
Quote from: Majus;863380My eyes glazed over at the example combat, I'm afraid (*the florid writing style didn't help). I don't really see how that combat couldn't have been describing the process of pretty much any other system, but I'm sure it's more apparent in play.
I'm very surprised that the "Tripping Wally Stabs Himself" power names aren't an in-game conceit. For a meta description, they're really unwieldy and also rather genre specific (i.e. for a certain kind of Asian media); I thought the system modelled Homer / Beowulf / etc. as well?
Yeah, combat examples tend to lose me and really the "fluff" can be in any system. There's nothing specific to the third edition rules that drive it.
I did find it a little funny (as in amusing I'm assuming the poster is honestly rolling) how the rolls played out a typical "Waif-fu" driven combat scene though. The two guys died horribly and fairly quickly, the female fighter the proceeds to take out their hulking killer in a acrobatic displaying with a little pseudo bondage for flavor. Though its not over yet its a little ironic(?) how it went all things considered. :)
Quote from: Majus;863381Nah, just being silly.
Oh ok. I was wondering. The reviews I've found have ranged from positive to glowing. Its like the movies that top the box office, are hailed by critics, even when awards but I can't stand. Just one of those things and there's no accounting for taste,
Quote from: AsenRG;863386Yeah, so? Do you think that European warriors didn't use fancy names for their techniques:D?
I never said that. ;) I agree that many martial systems throughout history had naming conventions to differentiate techniques, though I'd argue that "Boar's Tooth" is somewhat tonally different from "Swooping Swallow Startles The Monkey" (*).
(*Note, I haven't read Exalted, as my request for information earlier in the thread demonstrated. I'm just an interested bystander.)
Quote from: AsenRG;863386Damn, now I want to write a Martial Art cascade for Exalted using these names;).
Do it! :D
I still maintain that giving powers unwieldy names without having them referenced by characters is odd (obligatory link to the Ong Bak training scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ_EjJEo9NQ).
Quote from: Nexus;863387I did find it a little funny (as in amusing I'm assuming the poster is honestly rolling) how the rolls played out a typical "Waif-fu" driven combat scene though... Though its not over yet its a little ironic(?) how it went all things considered. :)
I didn't follow it for too many pages, but I am shocked (SHOCKED!) that it's gone in that way. ;)
Quote from: Nexus;863387Oh ok. I was wondering. The reviews I've found have ranged from positive to glowing. Its like the movies that top the box office, are hailed by critics, even when awards but I can't stand. Just one of those things and there's no accounting for taste
I haven't seen any formal reviews, but even the reaction among the communities has seemed rather lukewarm to me, so that's interesting.
Sorry, the joke was a little left field. I was just impressed at how incredibly scathing Christopher Brady had been in his previous comment. The joke (such as it was) was that positively spinning his comment was almost impossible, even with excessive ellipsis.
I'm here all week, try the veal, etc. ;)
(This post brought to you by "smilies", "quotes" and the letter M).
Quote from: Majus;863389I never said that. ;) I agree that many martial systems throughout history had naming conventions to differentiate techniques, though I'd argue that "Boar's Tooth" is somewhat tonally different from "Swooping Swallow Startles The Monkey" (*).
(*Note, I haven't read Exalted, as my request for information earlier in the thread demonstrated. I'm just an interested bystander.)
The charm names do have a fairly distinct wuxia/anime martial arts flavor. And being as they aren't in game effects (except when they are) that does seem odd. For me it makes them much harder to remember and the long discussions of how "Owl hoots at mightnight stance" interacts with "Monkey howls at the moon attitude" as opposed to "Stooges Dope slap approach" all the more dense and hard to follow.
QuoteI didn't follow it for too many pages, but I am shocked (SHOCKED!) that it's gone in that way. ;)
Its a little weird. Like the time when the guy in our that always red haired, drifter loners with a penchant fighting with paired weapons (or as close as the setting and system allowed) finally agreed to randomly roll a characters features and background for a change of pace... and rolled up a red haired drifter that fought with paired swords while we watched him do it.
Never bothered him about his characters again. Clearly some things are Fated.
QuoteI haven't seen any formal reviews, but even the reaction among the communities has seemed rather lukewarm to me, so that's interesting.
Sorry, the joke was a little left field. I was just impressed at how incredibly scathing Christopher Brady had been in his previous comment. The joke (such as it was) was that positively spinning his comment was almost impossible, even with excessive ellipsis.
I'm here all week, try the veal, etc. ;)
(This post brought to you by "smilies", "quotes" and the letter M).
I may be biased by the rpg.net reaction but even beyond it the reactions have been positive. But I guess most of the people that have it in hand at the moment are Backers or people that cared enough to hunt down "alternate sources" so inclinded to be positive.
Though to be fair, the initial reaction to second edition was extremely positive at first. And, as we know now, that was the work of the devil. :)
And the warts are starting to show for some, even on TBP.
Looks like there was some data loss at TBP. The combat example had to started again.
You can't fully go by reviews, especially for something that isn't even out yet. Heck, we all know that Exalted 2nd Edition has tons of issues. I can admit that even though I ran a 2-year-long campaign with it that was tons of fun. And rpg.net hates it, right? Well, here's the actual review page for the game: http://index.rpg.net/display-entry-stats.phtml?mainid=37#reviews (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry-stats.phtml?mainid=37#reviews)
So take any sort of review with a grain of salt right now. Until a game is thoroughly put through its paces by the community (and possibly broken/fixed by later supplements), no one will really know fully how it all clicks when all the working parts are working together. I am highly skeptical of the combat system and don't feel the need to go wading through 300 pages of Charms and Sorcery, but it's entirely possible that my concerns will prove exaggerated and the game will move faster than I expect even in bigger fights. I still think it would take more system mastery than I want to acquire to reach that hypothetical point, but we'll see.
I have booked my group to start a long term Ex3 game starting in February next year. We have four old hats (including one mechanical adept and one inept) and one complete newbie, so we should get a good spectrum of reaction.
I am confident that Ex3 will run notably better than Ex2, though I still have concerns about the density of the system in general. I have to say that despite the current shitstorm surrounding Exalted, looking back over my long and positive history with the RPG makes me optimistic that the game will be cool.
Quote from: Skywalker;863572I have booked my group to start a long term Ex3 game starting in February next year. We have four old hats (including one mechanical adept and one inept) and one complete newbie, so we should get a good spectrum of reaction.
I am confident that Ex3 will run notably better than Ex2, though I still have concerns about the density of the system in general. I have to say that despite the current shitstorm surrounding Exalted, looking back over my long and positive history with the RPG makes me optimistic that the game will be cool.
I wish you the best of luck.
Quote from: AsenRG;863350Except I just linked to a post explaining why Initiative isn't "meta", and for the fact that social influence is now more freeform, you have a point;).
If you do indeed want all of the things you listed, Fate is right there.
While I see you've come up with a personal viewpoint that's different the Developers along with, IME, ,most of those that use the system have said its a meta game concept that characters are unaware of beyond a general sense of who's "winning" and "losing" at any given moment. It has little direction connection to what's really happening in the imaginary space of the game world. Like Hit Points Init is largely a pacing mechanism and as vaguely defined though with more direction impact on the action from turn to turn and more fiddly.
The books itself asserts this and that, in setting, there is no difference between a withering attack and a decisive attack (except when there is) and that players shouldn't "game" Initiative (except when they should). Maybe I'm using the wrong term (it changes so fast and there's so much of it). Maybe disassociated would be a more accurate phrase?
Social Interaction is only more freeform in the sense that there are no turns and specific initiative. Its just as, if not more so mechanically codified as it was in 2nd. Its basically the same system as 2nd just without the ticks and rounds. Not changes I disagree with. Trying to fit social interaction into a turn structure always felt even more artificial and stiff than putting physical into one. But its not freeform in the sense of just roleplay or even "roll the dice and make stuff up". There are very regulated procedures involved.
Quote from: Majus;863380My eyes glazed over at the example combat, I'm afraid (*the florid writing style didn't help). I don't really see how that combat couldn't have been describing the process of pretty much any other system, but I'm sure it's more apparent in play.
I'm very surprised that the "Tripping Wally Stabs Himself" power names aren't an in-game conceit. For a meta description, they're really unwieldy and also rather genre specific (i.e. for a certain kind of Asian media); I thought the system modelled Homer / Beowulf / etc. as well?
Yeah, I'm really surprised they aren't using the "Sailor Moon Rule."
JG
Quote from: Nexus;863574I wish you the best of luck.
My group is now discussing whether to stick with Atlantis instead. Ex3's release has understandably caused concerns :)
Stick with Atlantis, or wait for Godbound.
Quote from: Snowman0147;863584Stick with Atlantis, or wait for Godbound.
I am happy either way, but its ultimately over the group :)
Combat 301 tutorial thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769761-Exalted-3E-Combat-301)
Quote from: Nexus;863576While I see you've come up with a personal viewpoint that's different
It's not "different". At least one of the developers is practicing the Japanese version of what I'm doing. Both involve swords, though.
Quotethe Developers along with, IME, ,most of those that use the system have said its a meta game concept that characters are unaware of beyond a general sense of who's "winning" and "losing" at any given moment.
And I strongly suspect they're just using concepts that are simpler to explain, but the actual inspiration of the system is coming from elsewhere.
Most importantly, it's not like I care. I mean, what does it matter if a system was inspired by meta-ideas, from real-world ideas, or from the aliens from Neptun*, if it accurately maps to reality?
And it does map to reality. So much so that it makes it easy to explain the system even to people that don't play RPGs, as long as said person knows what I'm talking about. I did explain EX3's combat system to someone I train with, literally in 5 minutes, using almost the words I'm using here (or actually less, because I didn't need to describe set-up actions). That was just to check whether it would sound meta. As I expected, it didn't.
*OK, that would be "meta-ideas" again:D!
QuoteIt has little direction connection to what's really happening in the imaginary space of the game world.
That's, frankly, bullshit. The book itself says fighters are aware of advantage and disadvantage. What kind of characters would have Melee 5 without understanding such basic notions?
Maybe they wouldn't know how much initiative they've got, but get serious. They would know whether the attack is likely to inflict a scratch, a heavy wound, or solve the matters. Any trained fighter does know that.
QuoteLike Hit Points Init is largely a pacing mechanism
If you want to take it as a pacing mechanism, you can. But it's not that in the game world, and I see no reason to add a meta-layer.
It's quite simple, really: the meta-layer is only there if you put it there. From my perspective, the whole complaint is based on people complaining about a mechanic being meta because they choose to treat it as meta. It's funny:).
(Also, it makes me suspect that some people have such an intense dislike for the developers, that they associate their work with whatever they hate most in RPGs, like meta-mechanics;). Hopefully, my suspicions are unwarranted).
QuoteThe books itself asserts this and that, in setting, there is no difference between a withering attack and a decisive attack (except when there is)
In the setting, maybe there isn't, because it's the same move.
And in real life, there's no difference between a lot of set-ups and the same move being used as an attack. A jab can be a strike, or a way to try and open up the enemy for the right cross to the chin.
Basically, I think the book is written in this way because one of the main complaints against Exalted 2e was "huge two-handed weapons kill, which doesn't allow me to play out the kind of battle narratives seen in the myths, legends (or fantasy, or whatever the complainer's preferred medium)".
So they're explaining how it fits the narrative. Seems normal.
Also, it's more likely
most people interested in Exalted 3 would be interested in story mechanics, than all those people being interested to hear about moving your enemy's point half a foot to the side, breaking his balance, disrupting his stance's structure, or the like:D.
But here's what the book says on p. 190-191 on this matter.
QuoteThe default assumption is that a withering attack depicts a glancing blow.
Yeah, that's easiest to explain. I'd write it myself. Besides, it allows players without too much interest in such details to just go "I hit him".
QuotePlayers might use stunts to also depict successful withering attacks as near-misses that characters unbalance themselves avoiding, or put themselves into bad tactical positions parrying at the last moment
Totally agree - good description should count as a stunt.
QuoteWithering attacks must be described as serious combat maneuvers—they're usually intended as killing or disabling blows by the characters who make them.
Bitch, please. Only a moron keeps trying killing blows if your enemy keeps blocking.
QuoteYou might also describe a withering attack as a feint to draw your opponent off-guard, or an intricate kata intended to force an opening for a finishing blow.
Yeah, now we're talking!
QuoteWhat's not valid, ever, is "I wither him to steal some Initiative."
Let us repeat.
"I use the mechanic" is not valid, ever, for a meta-mechanic?
Why would that be, if you're intending it as a meta-mechnic, guys:D?
I mean, in D&D, it's fine going for "I hit him" and then you reduce his hit points. In Fate, you can say "I use a Fate point to add X to the scene". Meta-mechanics don't need to reference anything but themselves!
Why isn't it appropriate if the goal was another meta-mechanic;)?
QuoteInitiative is a system abstraction of momentum and tactical advantage—you have to do things to establish that advantage.
Yeah, I think we have an answer now!
QuoteIt isn't something combatants directly interact with in the setting.
This can be treated both ways, indeed. But 1) ease of explaining, and 2) letting people do whatever they please in their games, and 3) target audience, all can explain the ambiguity even by themselves.
More importantly, yes, Withering attacks aren't something
specific simply because there are so many ways to achieve combat advantage. But
achieving combat advantage is no fucking way an abstract, meta thing! That's what people go to watch on a fencing match!
*Well, technically, I've seen something quite similar in one other game, over a decade ago, but that one is unpublished. Maybe the people that wrote it, because other system weren't satisfactory given their martial art experience, are still playing it. We didn't quite keep in touch:).
Quoteand that players shouldn't "game" Initiative (except when they should).
Standard White Wolf-style speech that the book gives you before dropping you in front of 1234567890 cases where yes, you need to pay attention to the parts that are presumably OOC and unknown to the character (and on closer examination, often are quite observable IC). Does anyone pay attention:D?
QuoteMaybe I'm using the wrong term (it changes so fast and there's so much of it). Maybe disassociated would be a more accurate phrase?
I don't know whether you are, never quite got the difference between "disassociated" and "meta", myself. It doesn't help that a lot of people seemed to mean different things under "disassociated":p!
"Disassociated" would likely make it easier for me to dismiss the criticism, too. From the definition I know, it implies that the mechanic exists only OOC and works "because", without the ability to be traced back to changes in the IC environment. And since I can trace Initiative changes to changes in the IC environment, that's obviously not the case.
Even if the developers said* that they were aiming for a purely meta-level mechanic, I'd only conclude that the developers have failed.
*This would have, at the minimum, be from a private conversation, because they've got too much vested interest in what they say publicly - and likely, in what they have the right to say publicly - for me to not doubt it if what they say contradicts the way the mechanic actually works.
And "it's all driven by meta-game concerns" contradicts the way the mechanic works.
QuoteSocial Interaction is only more freeform in the sense that there are no turns and specific initiative. Its just as, if not more so mechanically codified as it was in 2nd. Its basically the same system as 2nd just without the ticks and rounds. Not changes I disagree with. Trying to fit social interaction into a turn structure always felt even more artificial and stiff than putting physical into one. But its not freeform in the sense of just roleplay or even "roll the dice and make stuff up". There are very regulated procedures involved.
...I wrote
"more freeform". I didn't write "it's freeform now". You yourself agree it's
less artificial now due to the lack of turn structures.
What is it that you're disagreeing with, exactly;)?
And it looks like we are back to Atlantis and will revisit Ex3 in 12 months time. :) Ah well. I gave it a shot.
I really think you did not get it, Asen. What you describe is exactly what Nexus is "accusing" the thing to do.
In game (and the book even says so) you do not differentiate between withering and decisive...each character always tries to "go for the kill", so to speak. So your solar Resplendent Twilight has no idea that there are two kinds of attacks or charms he can use for each an every instance of his combat. Sure, he can tell, story-wise, if he has the upper hand or not...but each time he attacks, he wants to definitely hurt/kill/defeat/incapacitate his opponent.
On the meta-level (no pun intended...or is there :P ) you are forced to differentiate between the two. You, as the player, have to decide if you use withering stuff or decisive stuff. Bam, meta! There are even two separate charm sets for it (and some combined etc. ). But what your character wanted to do, namely to hurt/kill/defeat/incapacitate only works with decisive attacks on the mechanical level. So...big discrepancy between in-story/world (however you want to call it) and what you have to do at the table.
And that is also what i understand is meant with disassociated mechanics.
Quote from: Anglachel;863680I really think you did not get it, Asen. What you describe is exactly what Nexus is "accusing" the thing to do.
In game (and the book even says so) you do not differentiate between withering and decisive...each character always tries to "go for the kill", so to speak. So your solar Resplendent Twilight has no idea that there are two kinds of attacks or charms he can use for each an every instance of his combat. Sure, he can tell, story-wise, if he has the upper hand or not...but each time he attacks, he wants to definitely hurt/kill/defeat/incapacitate his opponent.
On the meta-level (no pun intended...or is there :P ) you are forced to differentiate between the two. You, as the player, have to decide if you use withering stuff or decisive stuff. Bam, meta! There are even two separate charm sets for it (and some combined etc. ). But what your character wanted to do, namely to hurt/kill/defeat/incapacitate only works with decisive attacks on the mechanical level. So...big discrepancy between in-story/world (however you want to call it) and what you have to do at the table.
And that is also what i understand is meant with disassociated mechanics.
Thank you. That is the aspect of the combat system that I find off putting.
Quote from: Anglachel;863680I really think you did not get it, Asen. What you describe is exactly what Nexus is "accusing" the thing to do.
In game (and the book even says so) you do not differentiate between withering and decisive...each character always tries to "go for the kill", so to speak. So your solar Resplendent Twilight has no idea that there are two kinds of attacks or charms he can use for each an every instance of his combat. Sure, he can tell, story-wise, if he has the upper hand or not...but each time he attacks, he wants to definitely hurt/kill/defeat/incapacitate his opponent.
On the meta-level (no pun intended...or is there :P ) you are forced to differentiate between the two. You, as the player, have to decide if you use withering stuff or decisive stuff. Bam, meta! There are even two separate charm sets for it (and some combined etc. ). But what your character wanted to do, namely to hurt/kill/defeat/incapacitate only works with decisive attacks on the mechanical level. So...big discrepancy between in-story/world (however you want to call it) and what you have to do at the table.
And that is also what i understand is meant with disassociated mechanics.
Which is odd, because if you are either a real-world martial arts master or a neo-demigod with internal command of divine energy, you should KNOW how to distinguish between a merely debilitating ('withering') or lethal ('decisive') attack. So that "metagaming" should actually be in-character.
Quote from: Nexus;863635Combat 301 tutorial thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769761-Exalted-3E-Combat-301)
I have to say Mengtzu's apparent refusal to use either the male pronouns or even male characters unless required is odd. I remember when he was much less.. strident I guess is a good word?
In any casem its an interesting read but, for me, illustrates just how damn complicated the combat system is even for relatively small battles.
Quote from: Nexus;863711I have to say Mengtzu apparent refusal to use either the male pronouns or even male characters unless required is odd. I remember when he was much less.. strident I guess is a good word?
In any casem its an interesting read but, for me, illustrates just how damn complicated the combat system is even for relatively small battles.
I would have used the word 'ardent' but if you're going to be part of the TBP clique, you have to drink the Kool-Aid.
I went cross-eyed between the overly florid text and the overly complex mechanics.
Quote from: Nexus;863711I have to say Mengtzu's apparent refusal to use either the male pronouns or even male characters unless required is odd. I remember when he was much less.. strident I guess is a good word?
In any casem its an interesting read but, for me, illustrates just how damn complicated the combat system is even for relatively small battles.
I really don't care about the female/male disparity here. We can have years of all female example characters in RPG-examples before we reach any sort of parity - if that is something one strifes for.
However, what I take away from that thread is that everyone who said combat would run faster than in 2e is a liar and/or an idiot.
It still has all the same problems that 2e had in that regard.
Also it seems to me now, that paranoia combat wasn't the true problem in 2e, but the fact that combat is utterly brutal for anyone not a dedicated combat monkey, something that is certainly very much alive in 3e... so not even an improvement there.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;863718I would have used the word 'ardent' but if you're going to be part of the TBP clique, you have to drink the Kool-Aid.
Of course Mengtzu gets praised for it. I guess its like Volfer fighting in a posing pouch is "awesome" but the Empress' leg showing is a Hate Crime.
QuoteI went cross-eyed between the overly florid text and the overly complex mechanics.
Its a mixture of repetitive old stuff (Its the Storyteller mechanics we've seen for decades along with some familiar bits of 1st and 2ns Exalted) and dense new additions.
Quote from: Anglachel;863680I really think you did not get it, Asen. What you describe is exactly what Nexus is "accusing" the thing to do.
Alas, then I can conclude you did not read it, or didn't bother to understand it, Anglachel.
Because what I describe is explaining why the two things that are different OOC, are also different IC.
QuoteIn game (and the book even says so) you do not differentiate between withering and decisive...each character always tries to "go for the kill", so to speak.
Go back and see why that's simply untrue. I quoted the relevant passage that it's not "always going for the kill". It's "if you ain't got other ideas, describe going for the kill".
It's like accusing D&D that it doesn't represent skilled fighters because it ain't got "Feint" as a standard action.
QuoteSo your solar Resplendent Twilight has no idea that there are two kinds of attacks or charms he can use for each an every instance of his combat.
I'm not even talking about Charms. They stated they're not discrete techniques, though obviously that only applies to Solar Charms. Martial Arts and Sorcery, being cross-splat, are discreet techniques.
But if Solar Resplendent Twilight or Solar Dumb Dawn have Melee, Martial Arts or Brawl 2+ (which is also to be read as "more than most people in the Western World", if you're wondering)...well, yes, both Solars know this difference! The Resplendent Twilight might be a bit better at pointing out the differences, while Dumb Dawn, in accordance with his name, would refer to them as "you do this first", and "then stab him like this". But even he would explain that if you don't do the first thing first, the other one is unlikely to achieve much.
QuoteSure, he can tell, story-wise, if he has the upper hand or not...but each time he attacks, he wants to definitely hurt/kill/defeat/incapacitate his opponent.
No "story-wise". He can tell it, period. And any character with some understanding of fighting would know which actions are meant to give advantage, and which ones are meant to knock out, kill, or whatever.
QuoteOn the meta-level (no pun intended...or is there :P ) you are forced to differentiate between the two. You, as the player, have to decide if you use withering stuff or decisive stuff. Bam, meta!
So, same as differentiating between attack and charge;)? I mean, you swing a weapon at the end, isn't it the same:)?
(No, because what lead to that swing was different. Same as the difference between an attack with lots of Initiative or barely any at all).
QuoteThere are even two separate charm sets for it (and some combined etc. ). But what your character wanted to do, namely to hurt/kill/defeat/incapacitate only works with decisive attacks on the mechanical level.
Once again, I'm not even touching on Charms in this discussion, since I'm talking from experience. And unless you really think I'm much better than I am, I probably don't have Charms:D!
QuoteSo...big discrepancy between in-story/world (however you want to call it) and what you have to do at the table.
All of it stemming from missing the parts of the text that tell you that no, you don't have to have a discrepancy.
QuoteAnd that is also what i understand is meant with disassociated mechanics.
Except it doesn't actually work like that.
Here, try telling this to your players - it's not a houserule, it's the GM explaining what stunts are acceptable to go with each mechanical action.
If you describe an attack that's meant to kill, you will roll a Decisive.
If you want to go Withering, you have to describe something that's not meant to inflict immediate damage. (Note I said "damage", not "pain". Pain is fine, as long as it's not the pain from a stab wound).
Try to play a combat out with this, and report back. By all means, if you prefer, play it out yourself!
Quote from: Nexus;863695Thank you. That is the aspect of the combat system that I find off putting.
Then the part about not reading should, I'm afraid, apply to you as well.
Quote from: James Gillen;863701Which is odd, because if you are either a real-world martial arts master or a neo-demigod with internal command of divine energy, you should KNOW how to distinguish between a merely debilitating ('withering') or lethal ('decisive') attack. So that "metagaming" should actually be in-character.
Exactly! That's why I keep telling that the book contradicts itself, but it mostly does so in order to provide a convenient "something to do" for people that can't describe it otherwise.
But as soon as you accept the above direction, there's no metagamey discrepancy.
BTW, I guess you mean "giving advantage" when you say "debilitating"? Because knocking someone out is what I'd call "debilitating", but it's a Decisive attack with a bashing weapon in the game. Withering attacks might inflict damage, but they don't deal fight-ending damage (nor, for that matter, anything you're at least likely to remember for the next few days).
But try it with the above guideline, and tell me if there's any discrepancy;).
Quote from: Nexus;863711I have to say Mengtzu's apparent refusal to use either the male pronouns or even male characters unless required is odd. I remember when he was much less.. strident I guess is a good word?
In any casem its an interesting read but, for me, illustrates just how damn complicated the combat system is even for relatively small battles.
First, I assumed that this is because of his desire for Maximum Fan Service:D.
Then he explained, somewhere on what would be the 6th page for you*, that it's due to him working on a game like that, Love and Labyrinths.
Obviously it's "not planning to acknowledge there's a male gender". Here's a post from David JP, explaining why. I actually found it when googling the game's name.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?748172-Calling-David-J-Love-amp-Labyrinths-Inform-Me!&p=19150540#post19150540
*"You" being "those that aren't using 100-posts pages", unlike me. It's all on the same page for me.
Quote from: Efaun;863720I really don't care about the female/male disparity here. We can have years of all female example characters in RPG-examples before we reach any sort of parity - if that is something one strifes for.
However, what I take away from that thread is that everyone who said combat would run faster than in 2e is a liar and/or an idiot.
It still has all the same problems that 2e had in that regard.
Also it seems to me now, that paranoia combat wasn't the true problem in 2e, but the fact that combat is utterly brutal for anyone not a dedicated combat monkey, something that is certainly very much alive in 3e... so not even an improvement there.
A flowchart (http://i.imgur.com/1z0kMqP) someone put together over on Reddit.
Quote from: Ryan L.;863760A flowchart (http://i.imgur.com/1z0kMqP) someone put together over on Reddit.
OK, I don't want to see an Exalted 3 proponent complaining about the complexity of Hero System combat ever again ... :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;863767OK, I don't want to see an Exalted 3 proponent complaining about the complexity of Hero System combat ever again ... :)
Oh.... that chart.....
yeah...
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;863767OK, I don't want to see an Exalted 3 proponent complaining about the complexity of Hero System combat ever again ... :)
I thought Hero was known for complex character generation and not a difficult system. I've never played and only read very small portions though.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;863767OK, I don't want to see an Exalted 3 proponent complaining about the complexity of Hero System combat ever again ... :)
Are there Exalted proponents complaining about Hero? I mean, 2e was about equally complicated:).
Now, Hero chargen has some quirks that I don't want to bother learning, but that's not the same as thinking it's too complicated;).
Quote from: Ryan L.;863760A flowchart (http://i.imgur.com/1z0kMqP) someone put together over on Reddit.
It's funny when the flowchart makes it look ridiculously more complicated than it actually is.
Quote from: Ryan L.;863801I thought Hero was known for complex character generation and not a difficult system. I've never played and only read very small portions though.
Yeah, that's the 'problem' with HERO, it's very front loaded. But once you're done, that's it, you're done. Roll 3D6, lower the better.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548177#post19548177 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548177#post19548177)
Apparently you like bad rules if you think there is something wrong with the BP/XP split of storyteller. Haha.
Quote from: gibdefs;863835http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548177#post19548177 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548177#post19548177)
Apparently you like bad rules if you think there is something wrong with the BP/XP split of storyteller. Haha.
I can see the ad now: Wanted: Talented and driven Community and PR manager for Onyx Path's Exalted game line. Ability to travel back in tme strongly preferred.
Quote from: gibdefs;863835http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548177#post19548177 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548177#post19548177)
Apparently you like bad rules if you think there is something wrong with the BP/XP split of storyteller. Haha.
Yeah, I facepalmed
hard when I saw this;).
Community manager for Exalted? Hey, I can be hired cheaply, due to location, and I dare defend Exalted on therpgsite:D!
Quote from: AsenRG;863840Yeah, I facepalmed hard when I saw this;).
Community manager for Exalted? Hey, I can be hired cheaply, due to location, and I dare defend Exalted on therpgsite:D!
Congratulations. That was my reaction the first few times Holden pulled stuff like this back during 2nd edition, but now I've grown to expect it from him. I've actually started to wonder if some of the other OPP people don't wish he'd be muzzled from time to time. Public relations is definitely not his specialty.
And following swiftly on the heels of that comes the inevitable "You're little minority opinions don't matter; don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!" (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548815#post19548815)Post.
Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
Quote from: One Horse Town;863847Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
Make threads on rpg.net and talk about "charms" or some character in the lore with a ridiculous name.
Nobody actually plays Exalted.
Quote from: One Horse Town;863847Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
It's like every other RPG. It's just suffering from having been late and the product of a lot of secrecy and a lot of other stuff, and having a very involved fan base. I mean, they love the game. I'm not surprised by any of the reactions, pro or con.
I say that as somebody with a writing credit on 3e, although I haven't seen a copy of 3e and had nothing to do with the rules.
Quote from: One Horse Town;863847Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
That depends entirely on who you ask and which edition you're looking at. It can have a tone that's pretty light or unrelentingly dark and depressing. That's a big part of why there's so much disagreement about what the "real" Exalted is.
The generic Exalted campaign is a group of five Solar Exalted going about Creation, righting wrongs and fighting against the evil empire that wants them dead. Maybe they build their own empire in the process or they just focus on stopping the seemingly innumerable world-ending threats that seem to crop up in every corner. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. For example, the second edition core book put forward one idea where all the characters had their own warstrider. It was basically a fantasy-ish Power Rangers campaign.
So I guess the real answer is basically, "Whatever the hell you want." Save the world. Build a kingdom. Explore ancient ruins. Expand Creation's borders. Assemble your own pirate fleet and rule the western ocean. Head into the Underworld and start smacking around some ghosts. You've got the sort of power most gods only dream of and the world is yours to explore.
Quote from: One Horse Town;863847Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
As a Solar? It's fantasy X-Men, only there's a reason the Realm (huge empire) is hunting you down — your kind used to rule the world, starting out as benevolent rulers and quickly decaying into insane god-kings. Of course, the world is crap right now, threatened by everything from undead to demons to reality-eating fairy folk to other Exalts, and heroic PCs are likely to step up and try to save it, but this can entail anything from murderhoboing to kingdom building.
As a Dragon-Blooded? Game of Thrones with less powerful, color-coded elemental-themed kinda-Roman kinda-Han Chinese aristocratic supers.
As a Lunar? Werewolf: the Apocalypse with all the stops pulled off. You can be a weredinosaur or weremastodon or wereanythingreally. You are an absolute combat god. Oh, and you and the Solars used to be besties, but you're a wild thing and all, so when they ask you the time of the day you might be just as likely to disembowel them, or fuck their brains out, or possibly both in whatever order suits you best.
As a Sidereal, Abyssal or Infernal? Meh.
As a mortal? You have giant brass balls. I salute you.
Gross oversimplification but there you have it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;863847Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
Exalted has a strong and compelling starting story for those new to the RPG. It is one of its strengths. You are a normal person given the powers of a demigod and you are being hunted down or harangued for favour.
If you are familiar with the RPG then the number of stories you can tell outside of this default is immense. At its base, Exalted deals with fantasy stories where heroes are powerful yet deal with their all too human flaws. You can draw on sword and sorcery, mythic fantasy, wuxia and a bunch of other genres. On top of this, each Exalted type presents a new focus which lets you revisit many of the stories from a different angle.
Quote from: One Horse Town;863847Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
Basically the same as in most fantasy RPGs: You wander around, right wrongs, plunder ancient crypts/temples.
There is also the thing where your character is a reincarnated hero of all that was betrayed and whose soul was locked away for over a millenium and prevented from reincarnation by the evil empire and the schemers behind it.
The setting is a really good mix of different elements, sword&sorcery, sword&planet, myths & and a fabled lost age that was qutie fresh when it came out (still is in my opinion) and has a multitude of reasons to do the things adventurers usually do anyway baked into the premise.
I do love the setting and played a lot in it. Despite the warts and all the mechanics of the past were actually engaging. I genuiely liked building characters in Exalted 2e and playing it, too.
As for Holden's comment: He is a really bad game designer and here it shows the most. Bad might be overdoing it - INEXPERIENCED is probably the word I am looking for. I actually think there are some intruiging mechanical bits in Exalted 3e, but it is so cluttered from poor design decisions...
He is unable to take criticism well, but being able to take criticism well is one of the basic skills one has to have to make it in any field with project work. Sadly his reaction to criticism is to double down on stupid and throw more mechanics at it.
Quote from: Efaun;863870As for Holden's comment: He is a really bad game designer and here it shows the most. Bad might be overdoing it - INEXPERIENCED is probably the word I am looking for. I actually think there are some intruiging mechanical bits in Exalted 3e, but it is so cluttered from poor design decisions...
He is unable to take criticism well, but being able to take criticism well is one of the basic skills one has to have to make it in any field with project work. Sadly his reaction to criticism is to double down on stupid and throw more mechanics at it.
Inexperienced would imply this is his first gig. It's not. He was with the 2e crew originally. No, you have it right. He's just bad.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;863874Inexperienced would imply this is his first gig. It's not. He was with the 2e crew originally. No, you have it right. He's just bad.
I am a big fan of giving people the benefit of the doubt, especially when not knowing them personally.
However, still defending this BP/XP thing, that boldly I might add... I am more and more leaning towards just "bad".
Quote from: One Horse Town;863847Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
I've got to say, this whole "what do you do" question is the most stupid question in RPGs. You only have an excuse to ask it if you've never actually played an RPG before.
Otherwise the answer is always the same: do what you
always do in RPGs. Make some characters and head out into the world to get in some trouble.
Quote from: Kiero;863883Otherwise the answer is always the same: do what you always do in RPGs. Make some characters and head out into the world to get in some trouble.
Still, it's fair to ask what sort of characters you play, and what sort of trouble you get into.
Quote from: The Butcher;863885Still, it's fair to ask what sort of characters you play, and what sort of trouble you get into.
Of course it is. I only ever see folk going on about npcs in the setting, which doesn't really tell me much, other than a lot of Exalted fans seem hung up on the setting rather than the game.
Quote from: Efaun;863870Basically the same as in most fantasy RPGs: You wander around, right wrongs, plunder ancient crypts/temples.
Thus the gag "Exalted is D an D for people that think they're too good for D and D."
QuoteAs for Holden's comment: He is a really bad game designer and here it shows the most. Bad might be overdoing it - INEXPERIENCED is probably the word I am looking for. I actually think there are some intruiging mechanical bits in Exalted 3e, but it is so cluttered from poor design decisions...
He is unable to take criticism well, but being able to take criticism well is one of the basic skills one has to have to make it in any field with project work. Sadly his reaction to criticism is to double down on stupid and throw more mechanics at it.
Holden isn't that inexperienced. Worse he doesn't seem to be learning anything from his experiences. But that ball's note solely in his court. Somewhere along the line someone should have stepped up and, frankly, muzzled him or at least vetted his comments. If not a professional in customer relations someone with more distance between themselves and the project so every negative comment wouldn't be taken as someone slamming their "baby".
Quote from: Kiero;863883I've got to say, this whole "what do you do" question is the most stupid question in RPGs. You only have an excuse to ask it if you've never actually played an RPG before.
Otherwise the answer is always the same: do what you always do in RPGs. Make some characters and head out into the world to get in some trouble.
I don't think it's as stupid as it seems; some campaign settings have more obvious hooks for that sort of stuff than others, and some are explicitly not set up to encourage heading out into the world to get in trouble. Much World of Darkness stuff (plus its imitators) tends to assume that the campaign will remain focused on a particular city. (Indeed, some versions of Vampire go out of their way to emphasise just how difficult it is for vampires to go travelling.)
On top of that, some settings send at best muddled messages, and at worst seem to actively discourage PCs getting involved in great swathes of stuff. "Doing (whatever) is seen as being a very, very bad thing and people who break this rule face a ferocious response from (monster) society" is sometimes used in White Wolf-y stuff to mean "this is an excellent thing for players to do which will create lots of exciting, game-worthy trouble", and is sometimes used to mean "this is something that the PCs should abhor if they're playing their characters according to the setting briefing".
Demon: the Fallen was a game with this problem: it explicitly set up a situation where a player character could, quite legitimately and with full justification, decide that they're not interested in summoning their higher-ranking superiors from Hell or carving out power in the mortal world in their own right but instead want to seek redemption. It's more or less directly stated that in the process of possessing their human hosts, the demons end up discovering a spark of residual faith which they thought they'd never feel again, and the system seems to be set up to encourage players to strive to lower their Torment score in order to attain better self-control and eventually regain their former angelic status, or at least move beyond what happened to them in the rebellion and their punishment and try to reach a peace with the world. At the same time, the setting materials completely failed to answer the question of what a campaign based around low-Torment demons trying to rediscover the good inside them would actually involve, or to provide any support for that sort of thing.
In addition, "go travelling, find trouble" is nowhere near as universal as you make it out to be. I've played and run a lot of horror games where the idea was that the PCs are ordinary people going about their lives when trouble comes to them, and their lives won't get back on an even keel unless and until they deal with that trouble. (This is a particularly good setup if you want to run a game whose duration isn't completely open-ended, but instead is intended to wrap up once the trouble that perturbs the PCs' lives is resolved.) I've also run games where the PCs have been the leaders of a community and so they have to deal with the problems facing that community and if they packed their bags and left they'd be strolling out of the campaign altogether; a campaign world existed beyond the borders of the city, naturally, that's where the threats came from, but the parameters of the campaign were such that they were expected to spend most of their time in the vicinity of the city and resigning their post in the city would be broadly equivalent to retiring their character.
"Go travelling, find trouble" is reasonable enough in a setting where a) the PCs don't have responsibilities tying them to a particular locale, b) the scope of the campaign allows for the PCs to travel wherever their fancy takes them, and c) the setting and game are set up for open-ended campaigns in which the PCs are expected to move on and find more stuff to do once the issues in a particular locale are resolved, rather than closed-ended games where the point is to play through a particular crisis and then have done with it. Forget avant-garde story games: there's plenty of traditional RPGs where those criteria don't apply, which doesn't invalidate "go travelling, find trouble" as a possible mode of play but does mean that a) it might not be the mode of play which gets the most out of the setting or system in question and b) you might find you have to retcon a whole bunch of setting stuff to make it work.
Quote from: One Horse Town;863887Of course it is. I only ever see folk going on about npcs in the setting, which doesn't really tell me much, other than a lot of Exalted fans seem hung up on the setting rather than the game.
One of the nice things about Exalted is that the setting is HUGE. There are some badass NPCs but by the time you step on their toes you might be pretty badass yourself. If you're not, well, there's always a bigger fish — Creation probably has sem its share of fledgling Exalts who thought they could take on the Mask of Winters or the Bull of the North.
Quote from: Brand55;863855That depends entirely on who you ask and which edition you're looking at. It can have a tone that's pretty light or unrelentingly dark and depressing. That's a big part of why there's so much disagreement about what the "real" Exalted is.
.
Complete agreement here. Ask any 5 Exalted fans what the game is "about" and you'll get at least 6 different answers. And they'll all be convinced they're right and the others are heretics with an almost religious conviction and zeal.
And at this point I don't have much of an idea what the writer goals are. They've said so many things, promised others and delivered different things yet again that's hard to follow along with game claiming so many diverse influences (and only growing more with even more "splats" coming drawn from diverse source material). Themes and mood also drift from edition to edition, depending in part on which fans gripe the most like how "anime and magitech" used to be of major importance in mid to late 2nd and no bordering on heretical.
I've felt that one of Exalted's problems is that its that its trying to serve too many masters; a trend that just been getting worse since 1st.
Quote from: Warthur;863890"Go travelling, find trouble" is reasonable enough in a setting where a) the PCs don't have responsibilities tying them to a particular locale, b) the scope of the campaign allows for the PCs to travel wherever their fancy takes them, and c) the setting and game are set up for open-ended campaigns in which the PCs are expected to move on and find more stuff to do once the issues in a particular locale are resolved, rather than closed-ended games where the point is to play through a particular crisis and then have done with it. Forget avant-garde story games: there's plenty of traditional RPGs where those criteria don't apply, which doesn't invalidate "go travelling, find trouble" as a possible mode of play but does mean that a) it might not be the mode of play which gets the most out of the setting or system in question and b) you might find you have to retcon a whole bunch of setting stuff to make it work.
Yeah, some settings just aren't conducive to "Wandering adventurers" as a basic and plain archetype. I've found that its usually modern/futuristic settings that don't assume some kind of new frontier or Post Apocalypse, etc. GURPS Transhuman Space, for example. Its a well developed, expansive setting but "wander and get into trouble" is going to to get most PCs swiftly arrested or worse in major swaths of the setting or at least possibly result in a limited game for many. There are possibilities, of course but they can use some additional explanation and detailing for people fresh to the setting that might not grok them right off..
Quote from: Efaun;863720I really don't care about the female/male disparity here. We can have years of all female example characters in RPG-examples before we reach any sort of parity - if that is something one strifes for.
Edit: I debated replying to this but I felt clarification was worth the risk of derail. But really it should probably move to another thread or PM.
I don't expect anyone else to "care" in the sense of getting worked up about it. I just think its odd, particularly how strident they are about it. It's an odd habit and seems more like showy "Look how progressive I am!" posturing way than productive as far as encouraging presenting interesting and developed female characters.
Plus I've never been fond of the idea that inverting a discriminatory practice evens the score particularly when that practice was more the result of thoughtlessness rather than deliberate exclusion (I doubt many writers, rpgs or others wise have deliberately not used any female characters for quite some time) particularly doubling down on in the process by doing it deliberately then going a step further. I haven't seen even minor, subservient or "token" males in their writings though in fairness I might have missed them I tend to skim the "fiction" as I find it overly florid.
It's not "unfair". It their stylistic choice. I can't say its sexist or misandrist as I haven't seen Mengtzu demonstrate any such feelings at other times. Its just odd and doesn't really seem to serve much of a purpose aside from drawing attention to the doer. So. mission accomplished I suppose as I did comment on it when it would otherwise have been typically mediocre game based fiction.
Quote from: Nexus;863896Yeah, some settings just aren't conducive to "Wandering adventurers" as a basic and plain archetype. I've found that its usually modern/futuristic settings that don't assume some kind of new frontier or Post Apocalypse, etc. GURPS Transhuman Space, for example. Its a well developed, expansive setting but "wander and get into trouble" is going to to get most PCs swiftly arrested or worse in major swaths of the setting or at least possibly result in a limited game for many. There are possibilities, of course but they can use some additional explanation and detailing for people fresh to the setting that might not grok them right off..
One of the things that Shadowrun did very, very right was making Shadowrunning an obvious and enjoyable default activity for PCs. It solves so many problems of modern-day/future settings, like:
- "Where's the action?" Don't worry about it: the next Mr or Ms Johnson you encounter will tell you where the action is.
- "What's my motivation for getting involved in the first place?" Mr/Ms Johnson is paying you to.
- "Why can't we just get the authorities to deal with this terrible crisis we've discovered?" Well, firstly, the authorities are extremely corrupt and you probably can't match the Big Bad's bribery budget. Secondly, you found out all this shit in the process of undertaking violent criminal activity, which you do for a living and which often involves causing death or injury to cops or security people. The police are not your friends and if, by some incredible chance, they smile at you when you come into the precinct it's probably because they're
really looking forward to the severe beating they are about to dish out to you once they get you behind closed doors.
- "Why can't our employer deal with it?" You know how your employer handles this sort of problem? They hire Shadowrunners to look into it. If the heat is too much for you, sure, by all means let some other team take the contract and the fat payout on offer for the follow-up work. Just don't expect this particular Mr/Ms Johnson - or, for that matter, anyone they talk shop with - to come to you with anything particularly juicy ever again, since you've clearly declared that this shit is above your pay grade. No, no, really, it's fine. We'll just take the contract to someone else and hope the Big Bad's goons believe you when you say that you've given up the job and are no longer interested. You never know, they might be especially gullib- what's that? You'll take the job after all? Well, that's great. I'm so glad we could fit this into your busy schedule.
Quote from: One Horse Town;863887Of course it is. I only ever see folk going on about npcs in the setting, which doesn't really tell me much, other than a lot of Exalted fans seem hung up on the setting rather than the game.
That's fair. Allot of online Exalted discussion seems to be more about arguing over setting minutia that much else aside from mechanical issues. Who's is or is not doing it "right" is up there too so concern about other people's games seem to rank pretty high on the list of concerns too.
Quote from: Nexus;863897Edit: I debated replying to this but I felt clarification was worth the risk of derail. But really it should probably move to another thread or PM.
I don't expect anyone else to "care" or not really. For one, I just think its odd, particularly how strident they are about it. It's an odd habit and seems more showy "Look how progressive I am!" posturing way than productive as far as presenting interesting and developed female characters.
I've never been fond of the idea that inverting a discriminatory practice "evens the score" particularly when that practice was more the result of thoughtlessness rather than deliberate exclusion (I doubt many writers, rpgs or others wise have deliberately not used female character for quite some time)) particularly doubling down on in the process: doing it deliberately and going a step further (I haven't seen even minor or subservient or "token" males in their writings though in fairness I might have missed them I tend to skim the "fiction" as I find it overly florid).
It's not "unfair". Its just odd and doesn't really seem to serve much of a purpose aside from drawing attention to the doer. So. mission accomplished I suppose as I did comment on it when it would otherwise have been typically mediocre game based fiction.
For what it is worth. I kind of agree with you: just using female examples because "progress", is as stupid as insisting that sexism is ok in sword&sorcery, because "that is how it always has been" or it is "true to the source material".
In my experience, the truly progressive people just roll their eyes a bit at this kind of shit and go about their day. I don't need that kind of posturing, I get where he comes from and think it is a poor way of going about things, but hey, getting into a fight about it? Not worth it.
But what do I know, I am european and never got the uproar that americans seem to have when they see breasts or a penis in illustrations.
Man, the fanbase comes across as almost obsessed with making sure there's plenty of things that make the PCs feel significantly afraid for their lives. Including mortals and the local wild life. And more that you never move beyond that.
Quote from: Nexus;863906Mam, the fanbase comes across as almost obsessed with making sure there's plenty of things that make the PCs feel significantly afraid for their lives. Including mortals and the local wild life. And more that you never move beyond that.
Where do you see that occurring? I don't doubt it. The fan base really seems to hate Solars. I see them as an opportunity to tell bigger stories.
Quote from: Ryan L.;863908Where do you see that occurring? I don't doubt it. The fan base really seems to hate Solars. I see them as an opportunity to tell bigger stories.
It seems to be an ongoing thing since, I don't know, late 1st? DB aren't strong enough, mortals are strong enough which generally seems to mean at some point PCs move beyond them as far as being easily killable or fearing them. I was just recently reminded by a comment about the new mechanics making sure Heroic Mortals were still a thread even in the high essence game and the Wyld hunt could make anyone in Creation fear for their lives. Its not just Solars for me. I don't think being like Chejop and Ma Ha Suchi should be sweating the local mortal dojo champions either.
There's plenty of claims that Solars are the most "popular" splat, played the most often and all that but it really doesn't come across in the online discussions either on rpg.net, the OP forums or really much of anywhere I've seen Exalted regularly discussed. Each edition seems to "take them down a peg." For instance the 3rd edition background removing most (I'd say all) of the uncertainty from Usurpation. And the period when the Solars were just, good rulers getting progressively shorter and shorter.
But its one of the areas where I seem to diverge from the more mainstream fans.
I agree completely. I wasn't sure if there was a new discussion kicking off how the Solars are still too powerful or one of the old Exalts still running around aren't beatable enough. I'm not sure why fans want to make it so that all of the Exalts are on the same level. It seems like a constant drive by some number of the fan base.
Quote from: Ryan L.;863921I agree completely. I wasn't sure if there was a new discussion kicking off how the Solars are still too powerful or one of the old Exalts still running around aren't beatable enough. I'm not sure why fans want to make it so that all of the Exalts are on the same level. It seems like a constant drive by some number of the fan base.
One of the things that attracted me to the setting is that it wasn't "fair". There were different power tiers and that was that. The Solars were the most powerful, at least potentially. That's what made their return a wonder and a blessing. They were going to change things but would it be for good or ill? Now they seem to be slightly bigger fish in an extremely large pond not a world shaking threat or Big Damn Heroes.
The Usurpation has gone from epic desperate war that spanned centuries, razed parts of Creation and was in doubt until the last Solar fell to the work of a long weekend where most of the Solars died like chumps over their dinner and the rest where hunted down like dogs while trying to flee and hide.
From a logistic stand point, making all the Exalts "equal" effectively makes the Terrestrials in charge. They'll always have a big numerical advantage over Celestials. But originally, the game was going to be focused on them as the "default" play group. But it makes the game feel allot more like "typical" fantasy where you're one group of adventurers in a world full of them. Adding what, 10 more new splats doesn't help here either.
Quote from: Brand55;863845Congratulations. That was my reaction the first few times Holden pulled stuff like this back during 2nd edition, but now I've grown to expect it from him. I've actually started to wonder if some of the other OPP people don't wish he'd be muzzled from time to time. Public relations is definitely not his specialty.
Oh, I wasn't surprised he thinks that, that much I expected. I was surprised he wrote it in public.
Quote from: gibdefs;863851Nobody actually plays Exalted.
Mwahahahaha, man, the lack of emoticons makes the joke even funnier:D! It's almost as if you believed it.
Quote from: Nexus;863896Yeah, some settings just aren't conducive to "Wandering adventurers" as a basic and plain archetype. I've found that its usually modern/futuristic settings that don't assume some kind of new frontier or Post Apocalypse, etc. GURPS Transhuman Space, for example. Its a well developed, expansive setting but "wander and get into trouble" is going to to get most PCs swiftly arrested or worse in major swaths of the setting or at least possibly result in a limited game for many. There are possibilities, of course but they can use some additional explanation and detailing for people fresh to the setting that might not grok them right off..
I have a name for those settings.
"The Interesting Ones".
Quote from: Nexus;863923One of the things that attracted me to the setting is that it wasn't "fair". There were different power tiers and that was that. The Solars were the most powerful, at least potentially. That's what made their return a wonder and a blessing. They were going to change things but would it be for good or ill? Now they seem to be slightly bigger fish in an extremely large pond not a world shaking threat or Big Damn Heroes.
The Usurpation has gone from epic desperate war that spanned centuries, razed parts of Creation and was in doubt until the last Solar fell to the work of a long weekend where most of the Solars died like chumps over their dinner and the rest where hunted down like dogs while trying to flee and hide.
From a logistic stand point, making all the Exalts "equal" effectively makes the Terrestrials in charge. They'll always have a big numerical advantage over Celestials. But originally, the game was going to be focused on them as the "default" play group. But it makes the game feel allot more like "typical" fantasy where you're one group of adventurers in a world full of them. Adding what, 10 more new splats doesn't help here either.
It's still unfair. The Solars can effortlessly do stuff a Dragon Blooded can only dream about, or would require expending more resources for only approximating the effect.
It's just that there might be a slightly lower gap in direct combat power, but even that is probably going to change.
Mind you, Sidereals are likely going to be really dangerous. Yes, even to Solaroids. Their ability just synergizes neatly with the new edition, but if you aren't using it, you can deal everything to where you want it;).
Quote from: AsenRG;863950Oh, I wasn't surprised he thinks that, that much I expected. I was surprised he wrote it in public.
If you thought that was bad, you should have seen some of the tantrums he threw in defense of Return of the Scarlet Empress. :D He was just a freelancer then so he was given a little more leeway by the community, but it was still pretty embarrassing to see him absolutely lose it whenever someone would really tear into that book.
Quote from: Brand55;863958If you thought that was bad, you should have seen some of the tantrums he threw in defense of Return of the Scarlet Empress. :D He was just a freelancer then so he was given a little more leeway by the community, but it was still pretty embarrassing to see him absolutely lose it whenever someone would really tear into that book.
I don't use canned adventures, people:D! They're more work than my usual Refereeing style. They're very seldom written in a way that doesn't require me to patch them after contact with players. And when I started GMing, they were prohibitively expensive to Bulgarians. (http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2013/05/why-i-dont-use-adventures-as-general.html)
On the plus side, I only read half a spoiler tag on The Great Purple before deciding that this one doesn't interest me either, Exalted or no Exalted. So I've never seen Holden's attempts at a perfect defense, either;).
A minus thread about Exalted? That's taking things too far apparently.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769945-Giant-Threads-of-Minus
A comparison to the fucking KKK? Are you serious...
As a Hero fan I've really got to roll my eyes. For what felt like the better part of a decade when you couldn't start a Hero System thread without it being carpet bombed. Usually by the same handful of people and the overall mod response to play the World's smallest violin.
Quote from: Brand55;863958If you thought that was bad, you should have seen some of the tantrums he threw in defense of Return of the Scarlet Empress. :D He was just a freelancer then so he was given a little more leeway by the community, but it was still pretty embarrassing to see him absolutely lose it whenever someone would really tear into that book.
Its even more amusing now to watch how eagerly he and the other current team shit all over Return (and pretty much everything else in 2ed but still...)
The admins at rpg.net certainly seem to be... an unusual bunch.
Regarding the BP/XP split, with the caveat that I don't know anything about the system, what's stopping people from calculating costs based off totals rather than the specific value that's being increased? By that I mean if you have 8 points in Physical Attributes, then the 9th costs X (doesn't matter if it's raising your Stamina to 2 or your Dexterity to 5). Could work for any of the skill categories in the same way.
Quote from: Ryan L.;863760A flowchart (http://i.imgur.com/1z0kMqP) someone put together over on Reddit.
It's not THAT complex.
Neither is it NOT complex. ;)
JG
Quote from: Efaun;863870As for Holden's comment: He is a really bad game designer and here it shows the most. Bad might be overdoing it - INEXPERIENCED is probably the word I am looking for. I actually think there are some intruiging mechanical bits in Exalted 3e, but it is so cluttered from poor design decisions...
He is unable to take criticism well, but being able to take criticism well is one of the basic skills one has to have to make it in any field with project work. Sadly his reaction to criticism is to double down on stupid and throw more mechanics at it.
"This game is bad. And you should feel bad for designing it."
Quote from: James Gillen;864004"This game is bad. And you should feel bad for designing it."
I am quickly approaching that. Which pains me, because I have many many fond memories of Exalted and there was a time when I liked the game so much that I was pretty much playing it exclusively for a couple of years.
Quote from: One Horse Town;863847Other than roll buckets of dice, what the fuck do you do in Exalted anyway?
Actually, the premise of Exalted is pretty cool : you play a Solar Exalted, a returning godling, who once ruled the world (Creation) until they were betrayed by those who should have advice and served them.
The world you returned in is in turmoil : the Scarlett Empress , the ruler of the greatest and most powerfull nation, is missing, and her heirs are starting to fight each other, leaving many important ressources and tasks unattented.
Mysterious conquerors are emerged and olds menaces rises again.
And you don'y have to look for trouble, since you are trouble, your existence marked as an abomination by the propaganda of the main religion of this world.
You will try to escape death, finds a sense to your nex existence and reclaim your birthright as an Solar Exalted.
Quote from: James Gillen;864001It's not THAT complex.
Neither is it NOT complex. ;)
JG
I think the flowchart makes it look more complicated than it is because the creator broke out every single step. I could see it being a good thing for new people. I think the biggest issue with it is the assumption of how charms are declared which isn't clear at all in the book.
Quote from: Ryan L.;864032I think the flowchart makes it look more complicated than it is because the creator broke out every single step. I could see it being a good thing for new people. I think the biggest issue with it is the assumption of how charms are declared which isn't clear at all in the book.
It is clear but it's in an odd place. I'd have to look up where it is after work.
Quote from: yabaziou;864014Actually, the premise of Exalted is pretty cool : you play a Solar Exalted, a returning godling, who once ruled the world (Creation) until they were betrayed by those who should have advice and served them.
The world you returned in is in turmoil : the Scarlett Empress , the ruler of the greatest and most powerfull nation, is missing, and her heirs are starting to fight each other, leaving many important ressources and tasks unattented.
Mysterious conquerors are emerged and olds menaces rises again.
And you don'y have to look for trouble, since you are trouble, your existence marked as an abomination by the propaganda of the main religion of this world.
You will try to escape death, finds a sense to your nex existence and reclaim your birthright as an Solar Exalted.
This premise was why I bought the 1st edition in the first place. I liked the 1st edition in the early days before the supplement bloat and the toxic fans started to emerge from the sewers. The fans and the sometimes hostile communications from the current designers has soured me completely on the whole game line. If I ever will get into the game again I will absolutely stay away from any Exalted threads on the big purple.
Quote from: Ryan L.;864032I think the flowchart makes it look more complicated than it is because the creator broke out every single step. I could see it being a good thing for new people. I think the biggest issue with it is the assumption of how charms are declared which isn't clear at all in the book.
I agree, it is a perfect tool to warn beginners to not bother with the system and go and look for fun elsewhere.
I sincerely hope Paradox puts an end to these shenanigans, excluding the editor from the circle of trust before making huge revisions to the entire document just leaves me speechless.
Quote from: Efaun;864153I agree, it is a perfect tool to warn beginners to not bother with the system and go and look for fun elsewhere.
I sincerely hope Paradox puts an end to these shenanigans, excluding the editor from the circle of trust before making huge revisions to the entire document just leaves me speechless.
I was unaware they did that. I'm not surprised. It seems like the game was developed by some of the most paranoid people with it constantly telling you what you shouldn't allow the PC's to do.
Quote from: nitril;864100This premise was why I bought the 1st edition in the first place. I liked the 1st edition in the early days before the supplement bloat and the toxic fans started to emerge from the sewers. The fans and the sometimes hostile communications from the current designers has soured me completely on the whole game line. If I ever will get into the game again I will absolutely stay away from any Exalted threads on the big purple.
I am actually on the impression that you can have a lot of fun playing only with the 1st edition core book.
Quote from: Ryan L.;864158I was unaware they did that. I'm not surprised. It seems like the game was developed by some of the most paranoid people with it constantly telling you what you shouldn't allow the PC's to do.
That bugs me too. So many of the rules (particularly the "narrative" rules) seem to be focused on making sure you play the game right in the designers' eyes either as player or gm. The BP/XP split, for example, it seems to serve no purpose but punishing people that aren't sufficiently "invested" to search out the newbie traps and make sure you develop your character correctly. I don't really have a dog in that fight though.
The obsessive secrecy surrounding the development was down right paranoid too, IMO. And I think at the end of the day it was too no benefit.
Quote from: yabaziou;864159I am actually on the impression that you can have a lot of fun playing only with the 1st edition core book.
You're correct, not just because of the best presentation of the setting info we ever got but also because before the awful rule bloat the system was at least half serviceable.
However that train has passed and personally I think Godbound is going to prompt a lot of truly embarassing comparisons.
Quote from: AsenRG;863742Alas, then I can conclude you did not read it, or didn't bother to understand it, Anglachel.
Because what I describe is explaining why the two things that are different OOC, are also different IC.
*snip tons of irrelevant blah blah*
I'm sorry, i will no longer engage you as it seems you just have your own definition of things and try to pass them on as "how it is" . I think it is you who should check for reading comprehension.
You can redefine all day long, talk in circles and try to pass off stuff for things it isn't but it will not make it more true than before.
I also don't know why you mix and match the whole time. Nexus was only talking combat, nothing else. And charms are an INTEGRAL part of that. So the "i am not even looking at charms" is BS.
I was just trying to point out that you talked totally past what nexus was complaining about. But i'm done. Just keep living in your own delusions.
Damn...
Quote from: Rich H;19559054EXALTED KICKSTARTER REFUNDS
Looks like these are possible and happening. I received mine last weekend and Kitsune Sidhe has posted on KS saying they've received theirs. Also, the same person posted Richard Thomas' response to their refund request:
"I've been trying to get a process connected solution to refunds from Kickstarter, but there is no way to do it that removes your name from the backers' files, so we'll have to issue you a refund manually and try and catch your pledge before it gets shipped out.
This is because Kickstarter had no provisions for refunds to pledges when we ran this KS, and only now has them in their terms of service as something needing to be sent if the project fails, which EX3 has not.
But since it has failed for you, I'd rather issue you a refund anyway, minus the amount that KS has taken and Onyx Path never received."
So, I'd recommend that anyone who isn't happy with this product keep getting in touch through KS messaging and Twitter in order to get some/majority of their money back.
Quote from: AsenRG;863742\
First, I assumed that this is because of his desire for Maximum Fan Service:D.
Then he explained, somewhere on what would be the 6th page for you*, that it's due to him working on a game like that, Love and Labyrinths.
Obviously it's "not planning to acknowledge there's a male gender". Here's a post from David JP, explaining why. I actually found it when googling the game's name.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?748172-Calling-David-J-Love-amp-Labyrinths-Inform-Me!&p=19150540#post19150540
.
Mengtzu has been doing this for years not just this example or recently.
And that explanation is just painful. Inverting a discriminatory practice is not an improvement and doesn't even the score. Its SJW "Punch up, not down" bullshit. And I too I'm very curious what these games are that don't mention women at all except on the harlot table or what have you.
Amusingly its alienates gay men and too some degree straight women that might want to play out their romantic fantasy ideal. Man, I feel old. I remember when a group of guys sitting around pretending to be lesbians was considered creepy. Now its progressive. :D
Quote from: Nexus;864352Man, I feel old. I remember when a group of guys sitting around pretending to be lesbians was considered creepy. Now its progressive. :D
You and me both, brother, you an' me BOTH!
Quote from: Anglachel;864344I'm sorry, i will no longer engage you as it seems you just have your own definition of things and try to pass them on as "how it is" . I think it is you who should check for reading comprehension.
Well, if you're not going to engage me...that was a rather long post to inform me.
BTW, I'm checking my reading comprehension daily, thanks.
QuoteYou can redefine all day long, talk in circles and try to pass off stuff for things it isn't but it will not make it more true than before.
"True"? You think there's one truth to RPGs or what? In that case: care to tell me what edition of D&D is closest to it:p?
Either way, I'm not interested in debating what's the original intent. Either that the developers meant to do it the way I did it, or it means me and circa 10 other people that don't know each other have found the same way of using their game pretty much independently.
I fail to care what their intent was. I know how the book I paid for works, as long as it can work in a way that satisfies me:D!
QuoteI also don't know why you mix and match the whole time. Nexus was only talking combat, nothing else. And charms are an INTEGRAL part of that. So the "i am not even looking at charms" is BS.
Have you heard about combat between mortals? THAT'S the basis of the system. Charms are then added to that.
I said I'm talking about mortal-level combat. Never accepted to discuss the charms.
QuoteI was just trying to point out that you talked totally past what nexus was complaining about. But i'm done. Just keep living in your own delusions.
Please, don't extrapolate from yourself when talking about other people, it's rude;)!
Quote from: Nexus;864352Mengtzu has been doing this for years not just this example or recently.
Maybe so. I didn't notice it before. His Exalted 201 sure had male characters.
QuoteAnd that explanation is just painful. Inverting a discriminatory practice is not an improvement and doesn't even the score.
I don't dispute that. Or rather: it might even the score, but it also creates a negative reaction.
QuoteMan, I feel old. I remember when a group of guys sitting around pretending to be lesbians was considered creepy. Now its progressive. :D
Anime is progressive?
It's neither, for all I care.
If nothing else, this debacle has made me want to run a Super Hero Fantasy game of my own... So a plus, maybe?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;864489If nothing else, this debacle has made me want to run a Super Hero Fantasy game of my own... So a plus, maybe?
And I've learned some things about different preferences in gaming. So that's something.
I was happy when I saw 3E, then I ran a session or 2 and hmm. Ya. Okay, I can feel the bloat. And then all the issues with quality control, etc.
I want to support the line and all that jazz, but man it's not easy sometimes.
Guys, guys, let's not argüe amongst ourselves. Let us remember what is at stake here...
...okay, fuck it, have at each other. :D
Quote from: The Butcher;864531Guys, guys, let's not argüe amongst ourselves. Let us remember what is at stake here...
...okay, fuck it, have at each other. :D
Wait, who's arguing?
Quote from: Nexus;864532Wait, who's arguing?
I THINK AsenRG is. With someone. I think.
...Maybe?
Whatever the case is, it gets weird with the status of IP being up in the air. No idea what's going to happen long term. And I care, but don't care now. I'm so burned out. Sad to say that. But it's how I feel.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;864489If nothing else, this debacle has made me want to run a Super Hero Fantasy game of my own... So a plus, maybe?
Sounds like a plus. Fantasy superheroes are, I find, more fun than the usual kind.
Quote from: Nexus;864496And I've learned some things about different preferences in gaming. So that's something.
It is something, too.
Quote from: Nexus;864532Wait, who's arguing?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;864547I THINK AsenRG is. With someone. I think.
...Maybe?
It's definitely no longer me. So I'm just as confused.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;864593Whatever the case is, it gets weird with the status of IP being up in the air. No idea what's going to happen long term. And I care, but don't care now. I'm so burned out. Sad to say that. But it's how I feel.
Wait, why is the status of the IP in the air, I thought it's squarely within Onyx Path's grasp?
Quote from: AsenRG;864623Wait, why is the status of the IP in the air, I thought it's squarely within Onyx Path's grasp?
Oryx Path licenses the WoDs and Exalted from CCP/White Wolf. Now that Paradox owns WW, things may be in flux either now or when the current contract runs out.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;864633Oryx Path licenses the WoDs and Exalted from CCP/White Wolf. Now that Paradox owns WW, things may be in flux either now or when the current contract runs out.
It's messier than that, I thought. We don't know which licenses, is it just the video game ones, or is it all of them?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;864671It's messier than that, I thought. We don't know which licenses, is it just the video game ones, or is it all of them?
It's all of them. However, last I heard the guys at OPP had been in contact with Paradox and were good to continue with all the Kickstarters they already had planned, so I doubt there will be any major changes in the immediate future.
Also, Paradox seems to be almost wholly focused on the World of Darkness IP so I doubt they'll even bother doing anything different with Exalted. Several Exalted Kickstarter backers emailed Paradox about their situation when CCP first sold the license, and Paradox was caught sending out copies of the form letter they'd sent to the first guy to contact them; they actually forgot to change his name when they sent it to the other backers, so everyone got the exact same response.
I think it is more complicated concerning Exalted. Paradox fully owns WoD (Old and New) via WW and OPP fully owns Scion and Trinity universe (Trinity, Aberrant and Adventure) but if I remember correctly Exalted is co-owned by OPP and WW (and then Paradox). So it they are any frictions between the 2 of them, it might be difficult to sort things out.
Quote from: yabaziou;864695I think it is more complicated concerning Exalted. Paradox fully owns WoD (Old and New) via WW and OPP fully owns Scion and Trinity universe (Trinity, Aberrant and Adventure) but if I remember correctly Exalted is co-owned by OPP and WW (and then Paradox). So it they are any frictions between the 2 of them, it might be difficult to sort things out.
No, OPP only licensed Exalted from CCP, and now Paradox, as far as I'm aware. The only direct quote I've seen regarding its future is this one:
QuoteRPS: Can you tell us what will be happening with the Exalted IP and White Wolf's relationship with Onyx Path? What difference, if any, will this make to the book publishing side of the business?
Sjögren: Currently we are talking to all of our partners, including Onyx Path and By Night Entertainment, something we couldn't do before the actual closing and announcement of the Paradox-CCP deal. We're deeply involved in the process of discussing with and learning about the minute details of our partners business while we establish a solid plan for the years to come. As I'm sure everyone understands we won't comment on any specific questions about partners, projects or products before this process is all done. But we intend to get through it as swiftly as possible.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/11/09/white-wolf-interview/ (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/11/09/white-wolf-interview/)
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Paradox ended up selling the Exalted IP to OPP anyway. But that remains to be seen.
Thank you for the clarifications, guys!
Quote from: Brand55;864724No, OPP only licensed Exalted from CCP, and now Paradox, as far as I'm aware. The only direct quote I've seen regarding its future is this one:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/11/09/white-wolf-interview/ (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/11/09/white-wolf-interview/)
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Paradox ended up selling the Exalted IP to OPP anyway. But that remains to be seen.
Yeah, it was a silly mistake from me. I mistake Exalted for Scarred Lands. Actually OPP makes a FAQ about that here : http://theonyxpath.com/about/faq/
Quote from: Brand55;864724Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Paradox ended up selling the Exalted IP to OPP anyway. But that remains to be seen.
Assuming the could afford it.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;864827Assuming the could afford it.
Looking at the money from the KS,they probably could.
Given the back-of-the-envelope calculation I did before, and looking at the artwork excerpts, it may be that OPP spent a lot of that money on licensing. That's one thing I didn't factor in.
Quote from: Baron Opal;864899Given the back-of-the-envelope calculation I did before, and looking at the artwork excerpts, it may be that OPP spent a lot of that money on licensing. That's one thing I didn't factor in.
According to Onyx Path (grain of salt and all that), Exalted 3E was going to be published whether the KS was successful or not. It was just for extras and massive gold plated books and such. Of course, that was before they scrapped it entirely and started a brand spanking new rewrite. The licensing fees should have already been taken care of at that point.
Quote from: Michael Gray;864909According to Onyx Path (grain of salt and all that), Exalted 3E was going to be published whether the KS was successful or not. It was just for extras and massive gold plated books and such. Of course, that was before they scrapped it entirely and started a brand spanking new rewrite. The licensing fees should have already been taken care of at that point.
Also raises. Don't forget that two of their stretch goals turned out to be more money for their pockets. One was even left as a surprise with three possibilities listed, and naturally they chose to give themselves more money.
So between the Exalted KS and the cash they're making off the WoD I don't think funding should be an issue unless they're really bad at managing money. Which isn't entirely impossible, of course.
Surprisingly absolute no one, there's another sex charm shitstorm a brewing. Right now its more a shit shower but it might blow up to something more. You'd really think they'd learn their lesson about this but apparently this is one subject where the Devs and writers are going to hold out....
Does anyone have experience and advice for running Qwixalted? I was interested in playing Exalted but I am not masochistic enough to bother with the ST rules.
Quote from: Nexus;864352Man, I feel old. I remember when a group of guys sitting around pretending to be lesbians was considered creepy. Now its progressive. :D
Mind if I sig this?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;864999Mind if I sig this?
Not at all :)
Quote from: Nexus;864947Surprisingly absolutely no one, there's another sex charm shitstorm a brewing. Right now its more a shit shower but it might blow up to something more. You'd really think they'd learn their lesson about this but apparently this is one subject where the Devs and writers are going to hold out....
For once, I hope they do hold out:). People that raise shitstorms over sex charms in a game like Exalted are really annoying.
I mean the "walking in an OD&D discussion to ask why is anybody still playing the obsolete edition" level of annoying;).
Quote from: AsenRG;865047For once, I hope they do hold out:). People that raise shitstorms over sex charms in a game like Exalted are really annoying.
I mean the "walking in an OD&D discussion to ask why is anybody still playing the obsolete edition" level of annoying;).
Yep. Don't like 'em? Don't use 'em. But they are absolutely fitting for something like Exalted. And it makes me shake my head at how people are totally fine with extensive crit tables that gloriously describe just how far the entrails of one's enemies will fly when that perfect roll comes up, but heaven forbid we delve into anything related to sex.
Quote from: Brand55;864916Also raises. Don't forget that two of their stretch goals turned out to be more money for their pockets. One was even left as a surprise with three possibilities listed, and naturally they chose to give themselves more money.
So between the Exalted KS and the cash they're making off the WoD I don't think funding should be an issue unless they're really bad at managing money. Which isn't entirely impossible, of course.
I totally forgot about that part.
Quote from: Brand55;865077Yep. Don't like 'em? Don't use 'em. But they are absolutely fitting for something like Exalted. And it makes me shake my head at how people are totally fine with extensive crit tables that gloriously describe just how far the entrails of one's enemies will fly when that perfect roll comes up, but heaven forbid we delve into anything related to sex.
Yep. Something I brought up on that thread is that there is a specific rule that allows player (and by extension the GM) to simply veto any sexually oriented social activity they're uncomfortable with.
But there is no allowance for vetoing anything else. Your character could conceivably be talked into murdering their family in cold blood by a skilled manipulator and, outside of the mechanics or walking there's nothing you can do but who your fictional avatar have imaginary sex with sacrosanct.
The dispute also seems to tie into a desire to have the rules be some kind of Holy Text that covers everything. The so called Red Rule isn't good enough because its "OOC" the text must specifically state, in character that characters defined as Asexuals are completely immune to any seduction attempts or that cross orientation seduction are impossible, etc etc. Like its going to stop some people from being jerks and (seemingly worse) having opinions that are different and expressing them in their games.
Because somebody, somewhere might be offended. The great moral crime of 21st century. I don't really care of the writers of the game have an "agenda". Everyone has an agenda. If you like the game, change the stuff don't like or play another game. Everything doesn't have to created for some mythological LCD.
And damn it, I'm back on that soapbox.
Bring it bit back to gaming in general. I admit these constant shitfest are really starting to change my mind on the viability of social mechanics at all. At least if you're trying to avoid horrors like Erasure By Failing to take into account every possible Fringe Case in the world.
Quote from: Nexus;865107Bring it bit back to gaming in general. I admit these constant shitfest are really starting to change my mind on the viability of social mechanics at all. At least if you're trying to avoid horrors like Erasure By Failing to take into account every possible Fringe Case in the world.
Yeah, I have to admit to not using special rules for social conflict. Even the social rules in Savage Worlds, which are incredibly simple, rarely see use at my table. Social situations are handled by dialogue between player(s) and GM with an occasional roll thrown in when necessary.
I've never needed anything more complicated than that. I understand there are plenty of people who want a fully structured system, and more power to them, but I've found what works for me and my group.
Social mechanics really require allot of player buy in to work and a good ability to separate the PC from yourself including understanding that the mechanics might reveal something about the character even you didn't know (or at least didn't plan on) and the humans are often irrational actors that don't act logically, optimally and according to strict guidelines. That's not always conducive some ideas of fun and might be more trouble than its worth unless you get a group that all on the same page in the regard.
Once again there seems to be a real dichotomy between what is accept for physical mechanics to determine as opposed to social. Outlier results happen in for example combat. The farm boy armed with a rusty knife managed to critically injure the heavily armored warrior is fine but the skilled tempter manages to seduce the frigid academic or the gay man (in the sense of convincing them to have sex or some kind of physical intimate relationship for one encounter) isn't though there's several ways to interpret both and both have happened in reality let alone fiction.
Took 'em awhile but they finally got around to closing Exalted - thread.
Quote from: Nexus;865124Once again there seems to be a real dichotomy between what is accept for physical mechanics to determine as opposed to social. Outlier results happen in for example combat. The farm boy armed with a rusty knife managed to critically injure the heavily armored warrior is fine but the skilled tempter manages to seduce the frigid academic or the gay man (in the sense of convincing them to have sex or some kind of physical intimate relationship for one encounter) isn't though there's several ways to interpret both and both have happened in reality let alone fiction.
'Go ahead and stab me with your knife, just don't try stabbing me with your dick!'
Quote from: Nexus;865107Bring it bit back to gaming in general. I admit these constant shitfest are really starting to change my mind on the viability of social mechanics at all. At least if you're trying to avoid horrors like Erasure By Failing to take into account every possible Fringe Case in the world.
How dare you call my obscure self-identification label that applies to no one else on Earth as a
Fringe Case!
Quote from: Nexus;865126Took 'em awhile but they finally got around to closing Exalted - thread.
I wonder how much OP/WW contribute to the running of RPGnet.
The faster rpg publishers and developers denounce rpg.net the better the rpg community will be. Seriously it is a corrupt piece of shit site that should burn to the ground.
Quote from: One Horse Town;865190I wonder how much OP/WW contribute to the running of RPGnet.
Nothing. Only one mod is an actual OP employee, and while three or four others are regular freelancers you'd be hard pressed not to find a bunch of freelancers who haven't worked for them.
As far as fiscal contributions, only Shannon would know about that, and Shannon is absolutely hand's off with the moderation.
I mean, if OP was running things, that thread wouldn't have been that long and ugly. Clearly, Cess just thought it had gone from useful to annoying.
Quote from: Snowman0147;865273The faster rpg publishers and developers denounce rpg.net the better the rpg community will be.
Naw, keep it going, so the sorts of people who like that sort of thing have a place to go... making it easy for me to avoid them.
But the thing is, it was not that ugly!! That is fucking propaganda speech of the mods and some fanboys. Sure, there were some a bit heated posts, but most of them were of whining fanboy bitches who didn't get that there are legitimate problems with their glory game.
I really don't get why it is so bad to have a minus thread when it is allowed to just spout unreflected praise in several threads. Bias in its pure form, i guess. Especially considering the different moderation-criteria that seem to apply to those two thread-categories.
Too bad Shannon is hands off when it comes to moderation. The Exalted - thread was one very good example of how biased the moderation is over there. And that is not only happening when the topic is Exalted.
But to be honest, i was surprised it was allowed to go on as long as it had.
Quote from: Anglachel;865280But the thing is, it was not that ugly!! That is fucking propaganda speech of the mods and some fanboys. Sure, there were some a bit heated posts, but most of them were of whining fanboy bitches who didn't get that there are legitimate problems with their glory game.
I really don't get why it is so bad to have a minus thread when it is allowed to just spout unreflected praise in several threads. Bias in its pure form, i guess. Especially considering the different moderation-criteria that seem to apply to those two thread-categories.
Speaking as former and current mod who tries to observe things, there's an institutional bias against minus threads like there's an institutional bias against threadcraps and edition warring and drop-in troll posts, and it's basically because it stirs up the hornet's nest.
My personal comfort level is to let minus threads and the like run longer, but that's not the site's tack as a whole, and in all deference to those who do find them to be annoying, there was a time when they really got under my skin. Because while plus-threads got started because there were contentious topics that always turned into shit-shows, minus threads are basically a way of saying, "Don't say anything positive, I just want to complain." They don't serve counter-purposes. Now that I'm older and give far less of a shit, they rankle less, but I see why they're problematic from a site culture standpoint.
QuoteToo bad Shannon is hands off when it comes to moderation. The Exalted - thread was one very good example of how biased the moderation is over there. And that is not only happening when the topic is Exalted.
But to be honest, i was surprised it was allowed to go on as long as it had.
I'm not. The staff really does try to give out leeway. I just don't think the forums over there are good at handling the idea behind a minus-thread.
Quote from: Anglachel;865280Too bad Shannon is hands off when it comes to moderation. The Exalted - thread was one very good example of how biased the moderation is over there. And that is not only happening when the topic is Exalted.
Considering that the entire d&d sub-forum was one massive 'minus' thread for 5e for 2 years, ably abetted by some mods, you can only argue that there's no moderator bias if you're one of those biased moderators.
Although i am finding it rather strange after all these years that our latest influx of new members is over the new edition of a game that is an RPGnet darling (surely nothing to do with the number of mods involved? No! Course not) ;)
Anyway, as FVB is the current authorised RPGnet/RPGsite interface, i'm sure he'll explain away for the amusement of his chums.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;865281Speaking as former and current mod who tries to observe things, there's an institutional bias against minus threads like there's an institutional bias against threadcraps and edition warring and drop-in troll posts, and it's basically because it stirs up the hornet's nest.
Ok, then how come rpg.net is not able to at least kick out mods that do those exact things themselves?
I understand the institutional bias against minus threads. Or at least how they are perceived by the majority of the mods. But if some of them cared to take a closer look, and not just take the side of their mod-comrades who happen to be devs on said game, they could see that (at least in that special case) the ... vitriol...mostly came from two sources - people who are fans of Ex3e and wanted to argue AND (which i find much more problematic) really really unprofessional behaviour from one dev and mod.
Granted, i am not yet "up to date" with that thread (around page 100) but up until this point, the problems were mostly coming from what i described up there.
I saw that at the end some posters did not listen to the red text...so yeah, that's not cool.
Anyway...i'm just real tired of the mod bias over there (although to be fair it is most often the same clique of mods that i find to be highly biased).
I know, i know...don't go there if you don't like it. Yeah...but i'm a bit sad about that because i really loved the place once. And it still has very good threads as well.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;865276Nothing. Only one mod is an actual OP employee, and while three or four others are regular freelancers you'd be hard pressed not to find a bunch of freelancers who haven't worked for them.
As far as fiscal contributions, only Shannon would know about that, and Shannon is absolutely hand's off with the moderation.
I mean, if OP was running things, that thread wouldn't have been that long and ugly. Clearly, Cess just thought it had gone from useful to annoying.
How was that thread ugly? Seriously, most of the contention was created by people trying to defend Ex 3 and telling others their problems and issues were meaningless. (and then you had Rand Brittan campaigning on trouble ticles to get it closed...)
It was calm no one was hurling vitriol and personal insults and group attacks around. I think there were two instances of red text: the initial warning which was kind of vague on what topic to avoid (Rachel Cartacos' issues, her sexuality, the charm entirely? Asexulity in Creation?) then the close message that came 10 minutes after another post RLSS.
I've seen much more hostile, aggressive thread that were allowed to die a natural death with the difference being they weren't about one of the site's sacred cows.
Quote from: Anglachel;865280But the thing is, it was not that ugly!! That is fucking propaganda speech of the mods and some fanboys. Sure, there were some a bit heated posts, but most of them were of whining fanboy bitches who didn't get that there are legitimate problems with their glory game.
I really don't get why it is so bad to have a minus thread when it is allowed to just spout unreflected praise in several threads. Bias in its pure form, i guess. Especially considering the different moderation-criteria that seem to apply to those two thread-categories.
Too bad Shannon is hands off when it comes to moderation. The Exalted - thread was one very good example of how biased the moderation is over there. And that is not only happening when the topic is Exalted.
But to be honest, i was surprised it was allowed to go on as long as it had.
You're not the only one. The push to close it was immediate compared to other minus threads.
So - threads are a bad unproductive idea but several threads of "Hey, lets suck these guys dicks a little harder and dog pile anyone that doesn't!" are fine? The minus threads do serve a purpose: actually allowing criticism of without massive dogpiling and getting shouted down. And its not like posters don't come in and say "positive" things (or usually just tell the other poster they're problems don't mean anything or are totally imaginary).
Quote from: Future Villain Band;865281Because while plus-threads got started because there were contentious topics that always turned into shit-shows, minus threads are basically a way of saying, "Don't say anything positive, I just want to complain." They don't serve counter-purposes. Now that I'm older and give far less of a shit, they rankle less, but I see why they're problematic from a site culture standpoint.
I'm not. The staff really does try to give out leeway. I just don't think the forums over there are good at handling the idea behind a minus-thread.
Yeah; from my perspective, minus-threads are really about venting more than anything, and that doesn't fit well with RPGNet's push to be a positive, constructive, affirming space (so long as you toe the ideological line ;) ).
I think they may have closed it a bit preemptively, but I could see things going downhill rapidly as of post #1250 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19567267#post19567267). My (perhaps overblown and most certainly biased) theory is that Exalted was written from sources and for a target audience of young pagans, but the fanbase has become old pagans in the interim. See Chesterton's Song of the Strange Ascetic (http://www.poemhunter.com/best-poems/gilbert-keith-chesterton/the-song-of-the-strange-ascetic-2/) or the contrast between Harold and Ogier in
The Ballad of the White Horse, Book III.
"And a man grows ugly for women,
And a man grows dull with ale,
Well if he find in his soul at last
Fury, that does not fail.
...
"And you that sit by the fire are young,
And true love waits for you;
But the king and I grow old, grow old,
And hate alone is true."--the anthem of the Social Justice Warrior? :)
Quote from: Nexus;865294How was that thread ugly? Seriously, most of the contention was created by people trying to defend Ex 3 and telling others their problems and issues were meaningless. (and then you had Rand Brittan campaigning on trouble ticles to get it closed...)
It was calm no one was hurling vitriol and personal insults and group attacks around. I think there were two instances of red text: the initial warning which was kind of vague on what topic to avoid (Rachel Cartacos' issues, her sexuality, the charm entirely? Asexulity in Creation?) then the close message that came 10 minutes after another post RLSS.
I've seen much more hostile, aggressive thread that were allowed to die a natural death with the difference being they weren't about one of the site's sacred cows.
I've always been amused when someone goes into a plus thread and posts something negative only to be roundly castigated and banned. Cause there's a rule about that.
Same as there is for bringing your sunshine and bullshit into a minus thread. Which is the second post in the thread.
By an Admin.
And people wonder why we think their rules are bullshit.
Quote from: AsenRG;865047For once, I hope they do hold out:). People that raise shitstorms over sex charms in a game like Exalted are really annoying.
I've read
Black Tokyo. A shitstorm spell in that game would fit in. :D
JG
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;865309Yeah; from my perspective, minus-threads are really about venting more than anything, and that doesn't fit well with RPGNet's push to be a positive, constructive, affirming space (so long as you toe the ideological line ;) ).
Someone should really tell several of the posters in Other Media that "positive affirming constructive space" thing. :D
Quote from: One Horse Town;865282Although i am finding it rather strange after all these years that our latest influx of new members is over the new edition of a game that is an RPGnet darling (surely nothing to do with the number of mods involved? No! Course not) ;)
I don't find it strange. If you want to talk about a game that's not anything story gamey, and you don't want to do it according to the laws of RPG.net's walled garden and strict moderation or deal with Something Awful's unique culture, this is the place to go.
If I want to learn about a new game, I probably go to SA, because for all of it's unique board culture, they really are good at breaking down the basics of a game in a thread and answering questions. If I want to bounce ideas about a game that's popular or fringe, I go to RPG.net. And if I put a high value on lack of moderation and being able to speak freely, but don't want to talk about anything remotely considered story-gamey, I go here.
Exalted 3 is big at all three sites, so I can only imagine people want different kinds of conversations and are going to the appropriate venues most of the time.
QuoteAnyway, as FVB is the current authorised RPGnet/RPGsite interface, i'm sure he'll explain away for the amusement of his chums.
Dude, I've been posting here for two years. At this point, I'm probably more than just an authorized interface. I'm probably a full-fledged Sleeper Cell.
"Plus" and "minus" threads are one RPGnet thing I don't get. "I've already made up my mind about this game and I only really want an echo chamber." What's the point of coming into a forum in the first place? Strikes me as navel-gazing bullshit.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;865320Something Awful's unique culture
This is probably the most polite way of saying "rancid cesspit" that I've ever seen.
Quote from: The Butcher;865321"Plus" and "minus" threads are one RPGnet thing I don't get. "I've already made up my mind about this game and I only really want an echo chamber." What's the point of coming into a forum in the first place? Strikes me as navel-gazing bullshit.
I started the plus threads thing, like, ten years ago, and it was because you couldn't talk about some games without a bunch of people wanting to come in and derail it by talking about their pet issues. Like, HERO, for instance, was something I was really into, but there were two or three guys who would show up every thread to turn "Help me build Green Lantern's ring" into round 15 of their discussion of why HERO didn't work for them anymore and please listen to me because I have all day to post and don't care that out of a twenty post thread, fifteen of the posts have been from me me me.
Burning Wheel had a similar kind of guy, until he got banned.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;865326I started the plus threads thing, like, ten years ago, and it was because you couldn't talk about some games without a bunch of people wanting to come in and derail it by talking about their pet issues.
For a current example, any fucking 5e thread over there gets the same group of 4e fans making comments about how 5e is broken and needs fixing, how the writers failed to take something in consideration and were too lazy to do it the right way and a bunch of other edition warring bullshit. A couple of the group are mods (Zeea and Metzgu or however they are spelled).
I may be completely misreading this but it seems like notanautomaton was challenged to provide links to support a claim by a mod in red text in Exalted thread but when those links were provided by someone else NAA caught a three week ban?
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770361-Infraction-for-notanautomaton-7)-Three-Week-Ban
Quote from: Nexus;865345I may be completely misreading this but it seems like notanautomaton was challenged to provide links to support a claim by a mod in red text in Exalted thread but when those links were provided by someone else NAA caught a three week ban?
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770361-Infraction-for-notanautomaton-7)-Three-Week-Ban
Close. NAA made a claim (against Holden, incidentally, for some stuff Holden said on another site last year) and the mod demanded sources or said it would be a PA. Someone else provided links and NAA was then subsequently banned again.
Technically NAA was wrong. Holden never specifically called him a sexual deviant. Holden just suggested he and others like him were insane sociopaths.
Quote from: Brand55;865347Close. NAA made a claim (against Holden, incidentally, for some stuff Holden said on another site last year) and the mod demanded sources or said it would be a PA. Someone else provided links and NAA was then subsequently banned again.
Technically NAA was wrong. Holden never specifically called him a sexual deviant. Holden just suggested he and others like him were insane sociopaths.
Ah, okay I did misunderstand but that doesn't seem much better.
Quote from: Brand55;865347Close. NAA made a claim (against Holden, incidentally, for some stuff Holden said on another site last year) and the mod demanded sources or said it would be a PA. Someone else provided links and NAA was then subsequently banned again.
Technically NAA was wrong. Holden never specifically called him a sexual deviant. Holden just suggested he and others like him were insane sociopaths.
I really don't get how someone as passive aggressive as him gets to be a mod...
Quote from: Warboss Squee;865315I've always been amused when someone goes into a plus thread and posts something negative only to be roundly castigated and banned. Cause there's a rule about that.
Same as there is for bringing your sunshine and bullshit into a minus thread. Which is the second post in the thread.
By an Admin.
And people wonder why we think their rules are bullshit.
Yeah, I was wondering why people don't get more bans for being positive in minus threads:). But then, I can't be bothered to care.
Quote from: James Gillen;865316I've read Black Tokyo. A shitstorm spell in that game would fit in. :D
JG
I haven't, so can't relate. Sounded mostly boring, and the only reason I'm considering it is so I could write an Actual Play (and subsequently freak out some people I dislike).
I might reconsider the above if anyone was able to explain to me the appeal of Black Tokyo.
Quote from: The Butcher;865321"Plus" and "minus" threads are one RPGnet thing I don't get. "I've already made up my mind about this game and I only really want an echo chamber." What's the point of coming into a forum in the first place? Strikes me as navel-gazing bullshit.
Getting confirmation.
Quote from: Nexus;865348Ah, okay I did misunderstand but that doesn't seem much better.
Weirdly, after reading the discussion on SV, I'm on Holden's side.
Yes, adding a "willing" clause wouldn't be a bad idea. But it also does imply "some of you are going to play rapists", and not only that, it implies "we know that, and we're giving the good guys an edge".
And I'm not fine with the former statement;).
Quote from: AsenRG;865362Yeah, I was wondering why people don't get more bans for being positive in minus threads:). But then, I can't be bothered to care.
Yeah, there's some exchange about that in the so recently closed thread when some were pissed when I suggested that coming to argue the virtues of the subject of a - thread might be causing the problem, especially when those arguments were largely "Your problems and issues a meaningless and you're an idiot for having them."
QuoteI might reconsider the above if anyone was able to explain to me the appeal of Black Tokyo.
Some people like their horror edgy, sexual and dark and/or exploring dark, disturbing themes in their role playing. Allot of people play criminals, mass murderers and other, at best questionable, things in their games, after all. OTOH, others don't see the appeal in sitting around playing Let's Pretend at all regardless if you're pretending to be a Jedi Knight or or a serial killer.
Different Strokes for Different folks.
Though, perhaps ironically, much of the focus in Black Tokyo is stopping or fighting some of the more messed up crap going on in the setting. You can play on the dark side or be corrupted by it but that's not the default assumption even in a "play the monsters" style campaign. But in that sense, its no different the WoD just more brazen about its sexual aspects.
QuoteWeirdly, after reading the discussion on SV, I'm on Holden's side.
Yes, adding a "willing" clause wouldn't be a bad idea. But it also does imply "some of you are going to play rapists", and not only that, it implies "we know that, and we're giving the good guys an edge".
And I'm not fine with the former statement;).
My position is the same as always. Charms are tools, they don't have morality clauses anymore than a knife does. Tools can be misused. The intent of the sex charms is, well, what they do, they can be used in whatever manner the character chooses and its up to the player/gm to determine that. Some Exalts probably did get up to pretty vile things with any of them (there are canon examples of such) things (like Desus and Admiral Arkady).
A character can use their Melee charms to defend a village from raiders or to slaughter the pathetic mortal forces raised to resist their brutal conquest or both. So a character could use Celestial Bliss Trick on an unwilling subject and that would be a majorly messed up thing to do. But allowing for the possibility doesn't mean that
1. The game is endorsing that activity or giving it a pass morally
2. That all players are going to rush eagerly to do so any more than having Grappling rules promotes playing rapists.
It depicts a world with no innate morality or even moral compass attached to power. Which I thought was supposedly one of the things that made Exalted so much more "mature" and "realistic" than games like D and D. Hell, you can use any of those charms for twisted purposes. Havesh used the disguise effects in Larceny to sleep with women as their husbands (whom he'd murdered to replace...). And some of the outrage brigade -defended- him at the time, even argued with people that called him a rapist for doing so. And I've heard of similar applications of other abilities.
And lets not forget the Exalted NC-17 contests.
I agree Holden is passive aggressive (among other things) but it is telling that that is the first place some people's minds go when looking at effects like that like how some want ideas censors because they'll tempt "other" people but they're really worried about themselves like they don't trust themselves not to do it or not to enjoy it.
Or maybe they just like acting as Morality Cops, making sure others don't have any unapproved fun on their watch.
Well, lets see how this one goes as I suppose its more constructive.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770564-Exalted-What-problems-do-you-have-with-Ex3-and-what-are-you-doing-about-it
Edit: Though for the first page or so it appears that its more a "post your issues so we can dismiss them" thread.
Edit2: Oh good and here's Holden to add his usual dose of good cheer and level headed discourse.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;865326I started the plus threads thing, like, ten years ago, and it was because you couldn't talk about some games without a bunch of people wanting to come in and derail it by talking about their pet issues.
I understand that it sucks, but really, how hard is it to ignore the threadcrappers.
Quote from: The Butcher;865410I understand that it sucks, but really, how hard is it to ignore the threadcrappers.
Pretty impossible, and they even managed to get past Ignore lists, because if enough people respond to the bait, you see the quotes in the replies. If I had been adminning the site as a totalitarian dictatorship like I wanted, I'd have just topic-banned or banned all of them, but sadly, the rest of my administration frowned on my suggested excesses.
Quote from: Nexus;865389Some people like their horror edgy, sexual and dark and/or exploring dark, disturbing themes in their role playing. Allot of people play criminals, mass murderers and other, at best questionable, things in their games, after all. OTOH, others don't see the appeal in sitting around playing Let's Pretend at all regardless if you're pretending to be a Jedi Knight or or a serial killer.
Yeah, and I've played both murderers and paladins. I like my horror dark, and as for exploring sexual themes, well... I've been playing Exalted for quite a while:p!
My question was three-fold.
1) Why does anyone in, presumably, their sane mind, think d20 is a good fit for a horror game?
2) Why would you need a dedicated supplement for bondage hentai?
3) What's fun about hentai bondage, like at all, other than shooting the monsters in the face?
Given those three, I guess it's just not the game for me:).
QuoteThough, perhaps ironically, much of the focus in Black Tokyo is stopping or fighting some of the more messed up crap going on in the setting. You can play on the dark side or be corrupted by it but that's not the default assumption even in a "play the monsters" style campaign. But in that sense, its no different the WoD just more brazen about its sexual aspects.
"Brazen" doesn't actually mean there are more sexual aspects than in WoD.
QuoteMy position is the same as always. Charms are tools, they don't have morality clauses anymore than a knife does. Tools can be misused. The intent of the sex charms is, well, what they do, they can be used in whatever manner the character chooses and its up to the player/gm to determine that. Some Exalts probably did get up to pretty vile things with any of them (there are canon examples of such) things (like Desus and Admiral Arkady).
A character can use their Melee charms to defend a village from raiders or to slaughter the pathetic mortal forces raised to resist their brutal conquest or both. So a character could use Celestial Bliss Trick on an unwilling subject and that would be a majorly messed up thing to do. But allowing for the possibility doesn't mean that
1. The game is endorsing that activity or giving it a pass morally
2. That all players are going to rush eagerly to do so any more than having Grappling rules promotes playing rapists.
Yeah, I'm with you on that one;).
QuoteIt depicts a world with no innate morality or even moral compass attached to power. Which I thought was supposedly one of the things that made Exalted so much more "mature" and "realistic" than games like D and D.
Exactly, and that's why I'm happy that the current developers aren't more likely to remove or edit those charms than they'd be likely to edit the advancement system.
QuoteHell, you can use any of those charms for twisted purposes. Havesh used the disguise effects in Larceny to sleep with women as their husbands (whom he'd murdered to replace...). And some of the outrage brigade -defended- him at the time, even argued with people that called him a rapist for doing so. And I've heard of similar applications of other abilities.
Presence Excellency against mortals means pretty much that nobody can even think to tell you "no". On anything.
QuoteAnd lets not forget the Exalted NC-17 contests.
Those were fun:D!
QuoteI agree Holden is passive aggressive (among other things) but it is telling that that is the first place some people's minds go
Yeah, I admit that was what worried me the most, too.
Quote from: AsenRG;865461"Brazen" doesn't actually mean there are more sexual aspects than in WoD.
That's not what Brazen means, it means bold. Which in this case means that Black Tokyo is more obvious, more 'in your face'. There's no actual difference in amount of sex.
Quote from: AsenRG;865461Yeah, and I've played both murderers and paladins. I like my horror dark, and as for exploring sexual themes, well... I've been playing Exalted for quite a while:p!
My question was three-fold.
1) Why does anyone in, presumably, their sane mind, think d20 is a good fit for a horror game?
2) Why would you need a dedicated supplement for bondage hentai?
3) What's fun about hentai bondage, like at all, other than shooting the monsters in the face?
Given those three, I guess it's just not the game for me:).
1 I'm not the one to ask. D20 isn't among my fave systems. Its one I'll for a one shot or similar short term but I wouldn't pick it for a long term game. Apparently the series (franchise?) is fairly successful in rpg terms so I guess enough people feel it works.
2. Its not just for bondage hentai. Black Tokyo is a supplement and setting for supernatural erotic horror stories. Anime like Bible Black, Taminan Asagi, Urotsokidji and La Blue Girl. Wicked City would be a good example mood and visuals though its more ecchi, IIRC.
3. Again, a matter of taste. I don't get what's fun about splelunking, stabbing random monsters and gathering loot but plenty of people love dungeon crawls. Or whatever the Hell Exalted is "supposed" to be about these days doesn't strike me as fun at all but for some its the only way to play.
Quote"Brazen" doesn't actually mean there are more sexual aspects than in WoD.
That's not exactly what brazen means. Brazen means bold, explicit and detailed. I actually don't disagree that there was allot of sex in the WoD but it was pretty subdued compared to most of Black Tokyo (though some things got really close). Personal games were often much more brazen (and to be fair, some of the official fiction and the Black Dog).
It was a running gag locally that two most popular house rules in the WoD where ignoring the Vampires didn't enjoy or want sex and that Garou shall note mate with Garou.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;865441Pretty impossible, and they even managed to get past Ignore lists, because if enough people respond to the bait, you see the quotes in the replies. If I had been adminning the site as a totalitarian dictatorship like I wanted, I'd have just topic-banned or banned all of them, but sadly, the rest of my administration frowned on my suggested excesses.
"Perhaps the government should dissolve the people and elect a new one."
-Bertold Brecht (paraphrased)
They really seem to have stepped in a pile of it with the sex charms; even some of the games more ardent supporters seem to be taking a step back over it.
I'm not sure if I should respect the Devs for sticking to their guns and wonder if they understand what apparently their target audience these days.
Quote from: Nexus;865538They really seem to have stepped in a pile of it with the sex charms; even some of the games more ardent supporters seem to be taking a step back over it.
I'm not sure if I should respect the Devs for sticking to their guns and wonder if they understand what apparently their target audience these days.
They caved last time. I doubt one could grow a spine in that period of time.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;865542They caved last time. I doubt one could grow a spine in that period of time.
Spine? No. Arrogance? Given the amount of praise they got, the amount of moderator power abuse they got away with, and their natural egos it might possible.
Quote from: James Gillen;865479"Perhaps the government should dissolve the people and elect a new one."
-Bertold Brecht (paraphrased)
"Hang 'em first, try 'em later." Judge Roy Bean.
It does strike me as so weird the only out given in Ex3 for social influence effects that make the player uncomfortable are strictly about sex. If you haven't invested in rendering something "unacceptable influence" your character could be talked into just about anything regardless of how you feel about it.
My noble Dawn general could be talked into cutting his daughters heart out as an offering the Unconquered Sun for victory by the beautiful charismatic Zenith regardless of how badly that bothered me but she couldn't get get him to have a quickie with her without my expression OOC permission?
There are ways to make things very difficult to convince you to do but there are drawbacks to them If I made one my Intimacies: My daughter (love) and Daughter (Protect) at Defining it means those actions shape almost my everything thought and action.
And a clever manipulator can use them against me. Its is dramatic and fits the source material though but so do "impossible" seductions. People worry more about who their fictional characters have imaginary sex with more than commit imaginary torture, murder, theft and betrayal against but its always been an odd dichotomy to me.
I'd be bugged allot more by being forced to play daughter killing Stannis than adulterous Eddard.
It goes back to that whole thing about many people being pretty fine with all sorts of horribly graphic violence but getting squeamish as soon as they see a nipple. I don't get it at all, but then I learned long ago that I really just don't get the outrage that most people in my part of the world seem to muster when it comes to anything related to sex.
For example, one of my favorite shows is Grimm. Last night they showed two guys basically getting mauled and having their throats ripped out. In earlier episodes we saw the severed head of the main character's mother. That's totally fine for NBC, but there's no way in hell that any of the rather attractive women on that show would ever be shown topless for even a split second. That's pretty fucked up if you think about it.
Anyway, rant over. And as for...
Quote from: Nexus;865591adulterous Eddard.
R + L = J ;)
Quote from: Future Villain Band;865281Speaking as former and current mod
FVB, the once and future mod !
Well... Its three weeks later and the threads closed but its something.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770777-Warning-for-Holden-Warning
Quote from: Nexus;865591People worry more about who their fictional characters have imaginary sex with more than commit imaginary torture, murder, theft and betrayal against.
Welcome to America.
Quote from: Nexus;865591I'd be bugged allot more by being forced to play daughter killing Stannis than adulterous Eddard.
The Rh'llor cult is a Religion of Peace.
Wylla as a serving girl, was not in a position of cultural power to refuse Eddard, thus every act committed towards her was rape.
You sir, are a rapist, sexist, racist, Rh'llorophobe and apologist for same.
Quote from: CRKrueger;865775The Rh'llor cult is a Religion of Peace.
Wylla as a serving girl, was not in a position of cultural power to refuse Eddard, thus every act committed towards her was rape.
You sir, are a rapist, sexist, racist, Rh'llorophobe and apologist for same.
FOOL! You always stick with the imp.
Quote from: Nexus;865771Well... Its three weeks later and the threads closed but its something.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770777-Warning-for-Holden-Warning
If publishers didn't give gamers stupid rules because they thought they wanted them, how would Palladium have started?
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;865792If publishers didn't give gamers stupid rules because they thought they wanted them, how would Palladium have started?
JG
I think Rifts exists in the area that Exalted is currently moving into, a good setting marred by obtuse and overabundant rules maintained by a fanbase prepared to cut the throat of anyone who dislikes it.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;865802I think Rifts exists in the area that Exalted is currently moving into, a good setting marred by obtuse and overabundant rules maintained by a fanbase prepared to cut the throat of anyone who dislikes it.
It does seem that, like Rifts, one will have a better gaming with the original 1st edition of Exalted that with the new iteration (the 1st edition of Rifts, the one with the bikinis ladies and the tentacles monster by Keith Parkinson, is full of fun !).
Quote from: Nexus;865771Well... Its three weeks later and the threads closed but its something.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770777-Warning-for-Holden-Warning
Well, what do you know...! It is something.
Although, to be honest, way too lenient. If anyone but a mod had made an equally passive agressive BS post like the one he wrote, the least would have been a thread ban. And a comment starting with something like "this is a group- and personal-attack, ...." .
So yeah, definite proof that some people are more equal than others over there. To be honest, i find it highly problematic that something like this does not trigger an immediate revoking of mod-ship. What kind of message and/or example does that send/set. Just head-shake worthy.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;865802I think Rifts exists in the area that Exalted is currently moving into, a good setting marred by obtuse and overabundant rules maintained by a fanbase prepared to cut the throat of anyone who dislikes it.
:yes:
Quote from: Warboss Squee;865802I think Rifts exists in the area that Exalted is currently moving into, a good setting marred by obtuse and overabundant rules maintained by a fanbase prepared to cut the throat of anyone who dislikes it.
Does that mean that in a decade, we'll see
Savage Exalted or a HERO or Fate conversion? :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;865929Does that mean that in a decade, we'll see Savage Exalted or a HERO or Fate conversion? :)
Whatdo you mean, in a decade?
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;865929Does that mean that in a decade, we'll see Savage Exalted or a HERO or Fate conversion? :)
Shit son that already happen. Sure fan made projects, but it had happen.
Quote from: AsenRG;865931Whatdo you mean, in a decade?
It took about twenty-five years from release for
Rifts to get an
official conversion, and we're about fifteen years into Exalted's life. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;865929Does that mean that in a decade, we'll see Savage Exalted or a HERO or Fate conversion? :)
Sooner if we're lucky.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;865935It took about twenty-five years from release for Rifts to get an official conversion, and we're about fifteen years into Exalted's life. :)
Yeah, Snowman already explained what I wanted to imply.
Quote from: Snowman0147;865933Shit son that already happen. Sure fan made projects, but it had happen.
Quote from: Anglachel;865848Well, what do you know...! It is something.
Although, to be honest, way too lenient. If anyone but a mod had made an equally passive agressive BS post like the one he wrote, the least would have been a thread ban. And a comment starting with something like "this is a group- and personal-attack, ...." .
So yeah, definite proof that some people are more equal than others over there. To be honest, i find it highly problematic that something like this does not trigger an immediate revoking of mod-ship. What kind of message and/or example does that send/set. Just head-shake worthy.
Though to be fair, I guess a thread ban wouldn't make much sense at this point.
Like things in Exalted threads are weird enough. Like here where I've apparently been upsetting people by thanking them in a way that makes them feel bad?
and trying to follow the rules of + thread.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769059-Exalted-3E-What-are-your-favorite-parts-that-aren-t-artwork-or-crunch&p=19585430#post19585430
The next few posts get increasingly strange from my perspective, but I may have a form of internet based autism. I wonder if I'll catch a mod call.
I think they are finding reasons to ban you.
Quote from: Snowman0147;865992I think they are finding reasons to ban you.
Could be. I've seen it before and if Jon Chung, former Savior of Exalted, can fall from grace then I certainly can. I don't have enough Social Cred to be one of the protected. I'm just black. :D
Won't be the first time SJWs shut up a black man who speaks his mind instead of following a narrative like a good little sheeple.
Quote from: Snowman0147;865997Won't be the first time SJWs shut up a black man who speaks his mind instead of following a narrative like a good little sheeple.
Or I could be being an asshole and don't realize. I like to keep that in mind. It is fucked up, IMO, that crashing a - thread to tell people their issues and concerns are nothing and their opinions stupid is fine but apparently but even implying you're not in love with the game in a + thread is Problematic.
I'm curious where this will go. But I'm not going to stir the pot. I've said my bit. Though I'm pretty sure some of crowd in that thread at least lurk here so that may be where some of the 'tude is coming from.
Quote from: Nexus;866000Or I could be being an asshole and don't realize. I like to keep that in mind. It is fucked up, IMO, that crashing a - thread to tell people their issues and concerns are nothing and their opinions stupid is fine but apparently but even implying you're not in love with the game in a + thread is Problematic.
I'm curious where this will go. But I'm not going to stir the pot. I've said my bit. Though I'm pretty sure some of crowd in that thread at least lurk here so that may be where some of the 'tude is coming from.
The "conversation" you got with Stephen was bizarre. If I understand it correctly, he accused you of using not loving Exalted enough and being polite ! You are indeed a terrible person !
Quote from: Nexus;866000Or I could be being an asshole and don't realize. I like to keep that in mind. It is fucked up, IMO, that crashing a - thread to tell people their issues and concerns are nothing and their opinions stupid is fine but apparently but even implying you're not in love with the game in a + thread is Problematic.
I'm curious where this will go. But I'm not going to stir the pot. I've said my bit. Though I'm pretty sure some of crowd in that thread at least lurk here so that may be where some of the 'tude is coming from.
"Some"? Man, that's gotta be the week of understatements in the Exalted thread;)!
Personally, I've taken a break from the Exalted threads, though if I have the time or I'm feeling in a bad mood, I may still return:D!
I started a sjw viewed anti review of Exalted a few years back going down the list of everything that the usual suspects get their collective panties in a wad over but I put it on hold because of the Ex3 announcement.
Might have to go dig up my notes and and this new version to the mix.
As soon as I have the time.
Quote from: yabaziou;866008The "conversation" you got with Stephen was bizarre. If I understand it correctly, he accused you of using not loving Exalted enough and being polite ! You are indeed a terrible person !
Maybe its forum blueballs over not getting the chance for argue and proselytize they were itching for. Stephen likes to stir the pot up in "subtle" ways. I called him on once when he tried to get shit started between me and another poster I like over there. Not sure if he's holding a grudge over that. It was a long time ago.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;866013I started a sjw viewed anti review of Exalted a few years back going down the list of everything that the usual suspects get their collective panties in a wad over but I put it on hold because of the Ex3 announcement.
Might have to go dig up my notes and and this new version to the mix.
As soon as I have the time.
I'd be interested in seeing it.
The thin skin and defensiveness really makes the fan base come across as damn insecure particularly in light of the general positive response.
Quote from: AsenRG;866010"Some"? Man, that's gotta be the week of understatements in the Exalted thread;)!
Personally, I've taken a break from the Exalted threads, though if I have the time or I'm feeling in a bad mood, I may still return:D!
There may be some projection going on too. Someone who's almost constantly an arrogant passive aggressive snarky asshole might well assume everyone else is as well.
Quote from: Nexus;866054There may be some projection going on too. Someone who's almost constantly an arrogant passive aggressive snarky asshole might well assume everyone else is as well.
It's not impossible, though I wouldn't make conclusions from people following or not sites they don't care to post on;).
Quote from: AsenRG;866057It's not impossible, though I wouldn't make conclusions from people following or not sites they don't care to post on;).
I think I was unclear. I was referring to the (not so) veiled implications StephenLS (and I think a couple of others) were making about me in that thread
Quote from: Nexus;866000Or I could be being an asshole and don't realize. I like to keep that in mind. It is fucked up, IMO, that crashing a - thread to tell people their issues and concerns are nothing and their opinions stupid is fine but apparently but even implying you're not in love with the game in a + thread is Problematic.
As far as I read that you were polite. Far from a asshole in any way. Point is you shouldn't even get that treatment.
Quote from: Nexus;866070I think I was unclear. I was referring to the (not so) veiled implications StephenLS (and I think a couple of others) were making about me in that thread
OK, I misunderstood you, I admit:).
Yeah, TBP is the place where implications that aren't obvious PAs are the order of the day. Most of these don't make sense, and don't have to, because all they do is showing your attitude towards someone else;).
Quote from: AsenRG;866105OK, I misunderstood you, I admit:).
Yeah, TBP is the place where implications that aren't obvious PAs are the order of the day. Most of these don't make sense, and don't have to, because all they do is showing your attitude towards someone else;).
Somebody on RPG.net once accused me of being "passive-aggressive."
It was like that time that Dave Mustaine got kicked out of Metallica for drinking too much.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;866108Somebody on RPG.net once accused me of being "passive-aggressive."
It was like that time that Dave Mustaine got kicked out of Metallica for drinking too much.
JG
I thought he got kicked out because he really overdid it and it got dangerous for others as well?
Quote from: AsenRG;866112I thought he got kicked out because he really overdid it and it got dangerous for others as well?
OK, maybe there was that.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;866168OK, maybe there was that.
JG
Just to clarify, I'm not drawing a parallel with the accusation. I'm just commenting that Metallica's decision had always sounded logical to me:).
I hope that was clear, but decided it's better safe than sorry;).
Quote from: AsenRG;866177Just to clarify, I'm not drawing a parallel with the accusation. I'm just commenting that Metallica's decision had always sounded logical to me:).
I hope that was clear, but decided it's better safe than sorry;).
Well, the analogy being, they're fine ones to judge. :D
JG
Has the PDF been put into general release?
Quote from: Nexus;866389Has the PDF been put into general release?
Nope.
I would have thought it would have been released for general sale by now.
Quote from: Nexus;866397I would have thought it would have been released for general sale by now.
Why? They had to incorporate errata and wait for new art to come in. I assume they'll want to give the final PDF another once-over at that point to make sure nothing got thrown off. Given their glacial rate of progress up to this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the public PDF doesn't hit until after the new year arrives.
Quote from: Brand55;866405Why? They had to incorporate errata and wait for new art to come in. I assume they'll want to give the final PDF another once-over at that point to make sure nothing got thrown off. Given their glacial rate of progress up to this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the public PDF doesn't hit until after the new year arrives.
I'm assuming, judging by what they've done so far, that they're errata updates are going to need errata updates in of themselves.
Quote from: Brand55;866405Why?
The last I really looked into it the responses to suggested errata were essentially "that's how we want it" and silence with a few minor corrections that would take a few moments with an pdf editor to handle.
The art was going back and fourth between "Its fine" and "These are just placeholders, really!" So I didn't know how much actual revision there was left; if there was going to be some changes or was another "and final version will be totally different!" scenario like with the last edition.
QuoteI wouldn't be surprised if the public PDF doesn't hit until after the new year arrives.
Quite possible.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;866409I'm assuming, judging by what they've done so far, that they're errata updates are going to need errata updates in of themselves.
I'm beginning to think that's what behind all the tsking about gaming the system. Its like the other editions. Incredibly fiddly and dense but not as mechanically rigorous as it seems to be and falls apart when taxed. It took awhile for the cracks to show in the other editions too.
If each of the splat hardbacks is going to add the same level of crunch (700+ charms and other items*) the number of moving parts this game is going to have is insane and feels like begging the system to buckle under the weight of unexpected interactions alone.
*Which I don't see how they can avoid for any of them except Sidereals without using allot of "Works just like Solar charm X with such and such different effects". Which would probably alienate much of their fanbase.
Quote from: Nexus;866415The last I really looked into it the responses to suggested errata were essentially "that's how we want it" and silence with a few minor corrections that would take a few moments with an pdf editor to handle.
The art was going back and fourth between "Its fine" and "These are just placeholders, really!" So I didn't know how much actual revision there was left; if there was going to be some changes or was another "and final version will be totally different!" scenario like with the last edition.
A lot of the errata turned in will be waved away, but they still need to do fixes like dealing with references to rules that were changed or don't even exist anymore. I know there are multiple Charms referring to things like animal stats or Evocation rules that don't exist anymore. As for the art, there are at least one or two new pieces coming to replace the ones that were heavily copied from other works. OPP doesn't have any control over when those arrive, and I don't know how motivated the artist is to hurry up since he isn't getting paid for them.
And the fact this is all falling around the holidays likely doesn't help speed the process along, either.
As of last Monday:
QuoteEx 3 core book – From RichT: Devs working on notating changes to a clean PDF to send to me and Maria for review. Art corrections are in progress. Unique Charm Compilation Reward backers continue to send in their ideas for the Charms that the team will be creating for them.
Given it took almost a month to add page references, I am guessing that errata, art corrections, and new layout for the text behind pictures will mean that the final PDF will be January/February.
That should mean we are on track for a Xmas 2016 release for the print book.
Quote from: Skywalker;866421As of last Monday:
Given it took almost a month to add page references, I am guessing that errata, art corrections, and new layout for the text behind pictures will mean that the final PDF will be January/February.
That should mean we are on track for a Xmas 2016 release for the print book.
You're certainly feeling optimistic, aren't you.
Quote from: Skywalker;866421As of last Monday:
Given it took almost a month to add page references, I am guessing that errata, art corrections, and new layout for the text behind pictures will mean that the final PDF will be January/February.
That should mean we are on track for a Xmas 2016 release for the print book.
Yeah, looks that way.
I just wonder if they'll hold off on making PoD copies available until the deluxe copies arrive. If so, then we've still got a long wait ahead of us. If they don't, then we might see physical copies of the book before summer.
So, given their track record so far, put me down for a Christmas 2016 estimate on the book's release, too.
Quote from: Brand55;866429I just wonder if they'll hold off on making PoD copies available until the deluxe copies arrive.
History says no.
I would expect POD by August 2016, with the price tag of $120 for premium, being more expensive than the deluxe KS version.
Quote from: Skywalker;866430History says no.
I would expect POD by August 2016, with the price tag of $120 for premium, being more expensive than the deluxe KS version.
120 dollars?
Holy fuck.
Quote from: Nexus;866440120 dollars?
Holy fuck.
Based on Mage 20, yep. Shipping is pretty high too. Another $30 for me in New Zealand.
You can get standard colour for $70, but that would be awful for a book with layered visuals like Exalted.
Sounds like some one is winning a bet.
Quote from: Nexus;866440120 dollars?
Holy fuck.
Yeah. OPP's system of selling bloated, PoD-only books that push if not exceed the $100 mark is one of the big reasons I don't bother with the World of Darkness anymore. What I find really ridiculous is that they won't even throw in the PDFs for free.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;866409I'm assuming, judging by what they've done so far, that they're errata updates are going to need errata updates in of themselves.
It's gonna be one of those books where "page xx" is the table of contents.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;866463It's gonna be one of those books where "page xx" is the table of contents.
JG
Uhm, if I remember correctly, WW books are notorious for that, so... How is that different, and why would that slow anything down?
I am not sure they are going to put in the errata people send them. They didn't do that for V:DA20 either apparently. I distinctly remember matt.celeb posting something like that.
Quote from: Brand55;866452Yeah. OPP's system of selling bloated, PoD-only books that push if not exceed the $100 mark is one of the big reasons I don't bother with the World of Darkness anymore. What I find really ridiculous is that they won't even throw in the PDFs for free.
Yeah that is a crime unto itself. There are many small press and truly indie game creators that make PDFs free when you purchase the POD. Why can't Onyx Path? Oh I am sure they will create a excuse, but fact is they are money grubbers. At this point you have to be a die hard fan to get those books.
So in the end, if you want the cheaper books from OPP, you have to pledge to their "deluxe" KS, as it seems.
Crazy!
And not throwing in the pdf with a price-tag like that?! WTF?!
The KS Backers do get that benefit as well. So take note, folks, if you really want to have OPP books in print, go for the KS versions...even though they are called Deluxe versions, they are cheaper in the end (and still probably deluxe value when compared to PoD).
What a stupid way to do business...shame on you, OPP. Fail on all accounts. Lucky them that they have such a fanatic fanbase or they'd be out of business soon (lets call them OOB instead of OPP from now on :p :D)
I think Kickstarter is their main sale because I know a few fanatics that were piss off with the prices in OBS. What is worst is that David Hill, one of the freelancers that Onyx Path hires, actually defended this shitty practice.
Look a high quality fully colored book should not cost more than 60 dollars. A high quality black and white book should not cost more than 40 dollars. PDFs should not cost more than 20 dollars. That is just simple truth. If it is a soft cover than the price should be reduce as well.
FWIW I think most people know upfront that the books are cheaper via the KS as the offset printing run reduces the cost considerably.
The cost of a 700 page full colour book by POD is immense. I wouldn't be surprised if it was around $100.
Quote from: Snowman0147;866528Look a high quality fully colored book should not cost more than 60 dollars. A high quality black and white book should not cost more than 40 dollars. PDFs should not cost more than 20 dollars. That is just simple truth. If it is a soft cover than the price should be reduce as well.
Unfortunately, this is not the case with extremely long premium color POD books.
To print a hardcover premium-color POD book of 650 pages through DTRPG/RPGNow, for example, costs about $75 as an absolute minimum. Every page you add beyond that adds another 10 cents to the print cost. That's the absolute floor price you must charge just to get the book printed.
Against this you have to amortize the production cost of the book. If you pretend that writing, editing, and layout design are free- which they are not- that leaves you with the big-ticket expense of art. If you make a very modest budget of $200 per full-page illo and put a quarter-page worth on every two-page spread, that 650 page book is going to cost you a bare minimum of about $16,000, and the reality will inevitably be worse.
Now, if you're a runaway hit, you're going to move 2,000 copies of that doorstop, and so if you're of a congenitally optimistic disposition, you can assume that the book's going to move 2K copies through its reasonable lifespan. That means you've got to amortize $16,000 over 2,000 copies which means a minimum of $8 added to each of the print prices, so you're at $83 here apiece just to not fall into the red, with extremely optimistic numbers and a willingness to sit in the red for months while the initial sales start paying off your art investment.
If you put a hundred-dollar price-point on your book, that means you're earning about $12 profit per sale. If you put $120 on it, you're earning a whopping $24 profit per book on 2,000 copies for $48K gross, pretending for the moment that writing/editing/layout was free. Trim off a minimum of about 35% for taxes in the US, and your titanic labor of producing a 500,000-word megatome has earned you $31,000 to split between you and your collaborators. After the book sells 2,000 copies, whenever that may be. Thus, producing the word output of a fat fantasy novel trilogy is not enough to live on for a year unless you do this monster job solo.
This is not to say that the market doesn't have a firm idea about what an RPG book should cost. It's true that they
want to see $60 color hardbacks and $40 b/w books. But if that's the case, then they had also better want to see books of under 200 pages, because the economics just stop working at those prices if the page counts climb. This may be totally okay with a lot of people, but those who want monster megatomes that contain three books worth of writing are going to have to pay three books worth of price for it, too.
Quote from: SineNomine;866535Unfortunately, this is not the case with extremely long premium color POD books.
Yeah, POD can get crazy expensive which is why I was not happy to hear it when White Wolf announced they were switching to that model for all of their books. What I dislike most about the way so many WoD (and Exalted) books are written is that it seems like the authors love to be overly wordy, which inflates the page count and pushes the price of the books higher than they need to be. WW/OPP never missed a chance to spend three paragraphs to explain something that only needed three sentences. And of course a lower page count would also mean less needed art, further bringing the price down.
But all that aside, my wallet isn't missing the World of Darkness or Exalted these days. It is, however, eagerly awaiting that Godbound Kickstarter that you're working on. :D
Yeah when is Godbound going to happen? It maybe the first time I give money to Kickstarter.
Still god damn man! Why is POD so expensive? How come the other method is so much cheaper?
I'm hoping to get Godbound launched as a KS in February. I just stuck the beta gazetteer (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4qCWY8UnLrcT1JIdDBoWE5mTUU) up on my G+ feed, but the really ugly part of the job isn't done yet- the GM tools for making and handling demigod-worthy challenges and adventures.
As for book prices, it all has to do with the total lack of any economy of scale with POD printing. Conventional offset printing is almost entirely a matter of first print expenses; you've got to set up your press, and that's a major job. Once you do that, however, every further book is just a marginal cost in paper, ink and press run time. The printer spreads their setup cost over the run, so a run of a hundred books done offset is hugely expensive per-book, while a run of 5,000 gets a comparatively tiny portion assigned to the marginal ink-and-paper cost. If you're willing to print a few thousand books at once, you can get very decent prices.
This is one reason why KS campaigns for major RPG companies can work. You know you're going to get one or two thousand print backers, to which you add the amount you want for retail distribution, and get it done offset for a relatively low per-book price. Assuming you don't overshoot and put in too big an order, and assuming you can handle the physical mailing on your end, you come out ahead. But you need the surplus for your retail channels, and you can't exactly mail them to DTRPG and tell them to fill orders with them, so any POD prints have to be made as one-offs for the prices listed above. Thus, KS backers can get their books for a drastically lower price.
So when we pay a POD we also pay to set up the press for that book every time we make a order?
Quote from: SineNomine;866551I'm hoping to get Godbound launched as a KS in February. I just stuck the beta gazetteer (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4qCWY8UnLrcT1JIdDBoWE5mTUU) up on my G+ feed, but the really ugly part of the job isn't done yet- the GM tools for making and handling demigod-worthy challenges and adventures.
I downloaded the gazetteer the other day but haven't had a chance to do much more than scan it. I like what I've seen so far, though I'm not sure yet if I'll use the default world. Either way, no rush on the Kickstarter. While I'm really eager to get Godbound in my hands, I'd rather wait a bit longer and have it done just right than have you rush things just to hit that deadline. I've always found the GM tools to be the best parts of your books.
In the meantime, I'm thinking of running a little "Call of Darkness" - a mixture of Silent Legions and Monte Cook's World of Darkness with a heavy dose of Scarlet Heroes rules thrown in for good measure. It'll be vampires, werewolves, and other types battling the agents of the extra-dimensional alien Iconnu that are seeking to turn Earth into their latest stomping ground. That should keep my players occupied until they get the chance to play at demigod.
Thanks for the beta SineNomine.
Okay I read a bit of the beta and things are certainly epic. You got your wars in heaven, slain gods who imbue mortals with godlike powers, hosts of revenge seeking angels turn devils, worlds that are splinter of worlds, and that is the top of the iceberg. This is more epic than Exalted for it is only one world. You sir had created a untold number of worlds.
Quote from: Snowman0147;866554So when we pay a POD we also pay to set up the press for that book every time we make a order?
Yep. Of course, Lightning Source, the company that handles OBS' POD orders, has the tech to streamline the process and make it as automatic as possible with a file, but that comes at a cost in flexibility, and is one reason why Lightning Source is so notoriously finicky about getting a good print file. It's also why you can get more particular about offset print job paper/binding/sizes than you can with POD. I also have to assume that Lightning Source does at least a day-by-day batching process for their books to run all their orders for a given title once a day or some such, and you can get up to a 20% discount if you order 250+ at a time, but the losses in economies of scale are always there.
Quote from: Snowman0147;866565Okay I read a bit of the beta and things are certainly epic. You got your wars in heaven, slain gods who imbue mortals with godlike powers, hosts of revenge seeking angels turn devils, worlds that are splinter of worlds, and that is the top of the iceberg. This is more epic than Exalted for it is only one world. You sir had created a untold number of worlds.
Yeah, it looks very promising. I also really appreciated how there's a one-page handout for players and GMs that shows the map and gives a brief description of each region and its people so they can get a quick overview before making characters. That's extremely helpful.
Quote from: SineNomine;866535Unfortunately, this is not the case with extremely long premium color POD books.
To print a hardcover premium-color POD book of 650 pages through DTRPG/RPGNow, for example, costs about $75 as an absolute minimum. Every page you add beyond that adds another 10 cents to the print cost. That's the absolute floor price you must charge just to get the book printed.
Against this you have to amortize the production cost of the book. If you pretend that writing, editing, and layout design are free- which they are not- that leaves you with the big-ticket expense of art. If you make a very modest budget of $200 per full-page illo and put a quarter-page worth on every two-page spread, that 650 page book is going to cost you a bare minimum of about $16,000, and the reality will inevitably be worse.
Now, if you're a runaway hit, you're going to move 2,000 copies of that doorstop, and so if you're of a congenitally optimistic disposition, you can assume that the book's going to move 2K copies through its reasonable lifespan. That means you've got to amortize $16,000 over 2,000 copies which means a minimum of $8 added to each of the print prices, so you're at $83 here apiece just to not fall into the red, with extremely optimistic numbers and a willingness to sit in the red for months while the initial sales start paying off your art investment.
If you put a hundred-dollar price-point on your book, that means you're earning about $12 profit per sale. If you put $120 on it, you're earning a whopping $24 profit per book on 2,000 copies for $48K gross, pretending for the moment that writing/editing/layout was free. Trim off a minimum of about 35% for taxes in the US, and your titanic labor of producing a 500,000-word megatome has earned you $31,000 to split between you and your collaborators. After the book sells 2,000 copies, whenever that may be. Thus, producing the word output of a fat fantasy novel trilogy is not enough to live on for a year unless you do this monster job solo.
This is not to say that the market doesn't have a firm idea about what an RPG book should cost. It's true that they want to see $60 color hardbacks and $40 b/w books. But if that's the case, then they had also better want to see books of under 200 pages, because the economics just stop working at those prices if the page counts climb. This may be totally okay with a lot of people, but those who want monster megatomes that contain three books worth of writing are going to have to pay three books worth of price for it, too.
I think art, editing and layout should be paid by the 700k $ kickstarter. I managed ERP projects for less money!
For 50$ I get a FFG Star Wars Core book and that has a lot better production values. Ars Magica is 40$, also a lot better etc.
I'm most interested in seeing the PDF hit a more general release to get some diverse reactions and evaluation. The backer pdfs mostly went to the more hardcore fans (Some willing to spend 1000+ bucks). I'm curious what a more general audience might think.
Quote from: Efaun;866598I think art, editing and layout should be paid by the 700k $ kickstarter. I managed ERP projects for less money!
Yeah, in Exalted's case the KS pays for the production cost, but that just peels the theoretical $8 out of your per-piece costs. You're still looking at a book that costs $75 to print, and there's no way to use your KS money to defray that cost. Huge premium-color POD books are always going to be brutally expensive in the current environment unless Lightning Source somehow figures out how to cut their costs dramatically.
Allow me to slightly derail this from Exalted, but with reason. I recently bought and received a copy of Degenesis: Rebirth Edition. I mention this because sixmorevodka (SMV), those who produce it, know how to run a business and make a game. There might be ways comparing them to OPP isn't solid from a business perspective, but I'm speaking from a customer's perspective.
First, it's GORGEOUS! The art is evocative and fits the setting very well. However, it has full-frontal nudity, so SJWs beware. Penises are scary. Or are breasts bad. Fuck. I'm confused. Anyway.
The layout, something OPP said would shake the universe to atoms in Exalted, is actually, truly fucking great! Does it shake the universe to atoms? No, because we're still here. However, it's very, very well done.
The binding and physical books are very well-made. The spine is separate from the binding, so you can open it without stressing the thick, glossy (but not too glossy) pages. And there's a bookmark ribbon. Neat.
Now, Degenesis may not be your style and it is expensive (obviously worth it to me) but it apparently took two years to write, layout, playtest, etc. It was out in German first and the English version just came out. Oh, for a German to English translation it has less typos than I've seen in most WW books. Is it perfect? No, of course not. Are there things that are at times unclear? Yep. However the staff is active on the forums and very, very helpful. I've had solid answers within moments. It's awesome.
When I ordered the books I didn't receive my tracking number and two of the staff (to include Marko, the Head Guy) responded. I was given not only my tracking number but a screen shot of its latest placement was attached to the e-mail.
They did a Black Friday sale for all English products at 50% off. Some people who preordered it were upset that the sale happened so soon after the English release, feeling if they'd waited, it would've been better. The staff immediately responded and within days, fixed it. They're now giving everyone who preordered the English book the English PDF for free and 10% off the first supplement/PDF bundle. They genuinely cared. They were polite. They didn't hem and haw.
I guess my point is, I've been following the Exalted hellstorm and have seen so many instances of OPP being complete tools. I've read enough of the new edition to say I feel they lied. It isn't new, it's the same old and worse. There are some neat things, but nothing worth slogging through the megaton of rules fuckery or Jenna Moran's writing.
I think Rich and Friends went to the GMS School of Making RPGs...
Anyway, I guess it's nice to see a true professional RPG undertaking made by very nice people who care. I'm by no means saying SMV are the only ones or that Degenesis is The One True RPG, it just struck me as of late as a stark contrast to OPP and Exalted..
Oh, Godbound looks fucking awesome! Totally KSing it!
Wow didn't know Degenesis did another English version. I got the older edition then.
It did! I never played the older edition. I've heard from those in the know that the current rules are much better. SMV put a lot of love into it. I'm hoping it gets some traction; it's great post-apocalyptic!
I think I've learned a little about how the different (and apparently victorious) fans viewed Exalted and how their preferences differed from mine. But the one thing I still don't (and probably never will0 get is the incredible need to make mortals "credible threats" or even the odds or whatever. The game is Exalted not Mortals and occasionally some guys that glow.
Its a setting with mad gods, demons, undead, spirits, invaders from Chaos and many other threads. Why does Joe the local Bandit King or some hedge mage witch have to be as "credible threat" to the Chosen of the Gods? Particularly with adding like 5 more types of Exalted. There aren't enough threats in Creation for GMs to work with? The idea that a character is worthless if they can't smack around PCs just seems weird to me. Maybe its because I play allot of Supers games where the PC are head and shoulders above most of the world?
Quote from: Nexus;867072Its a setting with mad gods, demons, undead, spirits, invaders from Chaos and many other threads. Why does Joe the local Bandit King or some hedge mage witch have to be as "credible threat" to the Chosen of the Gods?
That does seem to go against the original appeal of the game.
Long ago I had a spark of interest in Exalted's setting but not so much in running Exalts themselves... more like running ordinary mortals struggling in a world full of roaming demigods and stuff that's vastly more powerful than even the best mortal warrior.
But then, I'm a fan of Call of Cthulhu so maybe that's plays into why I like that idea. But having PCs who could punch Cthulhu in the face... and live to tell about it... would similarly be missing the point. Yet there's always some element of folks who want to play it that way.
Quote from: Simlasa;867075That does seem to go against the original appeal of the game.
Long ago I had a spark of interest in Exalted's setting but not so much in running Exalts themselves... more like running ordinary mortals struggling in a world full of roaming demigods and stuff that's vastly more powerful than even the best mortal warrior.
But then, I'm a fan of Call of Cthulhu so maybe that's plays into why I like that idea. But having PCs who could punch Cthulhu in the face... and live to tell about it... would similarly be missing the point. Yet there's always some element of folks who want to play it that way.
Sometimes I think its the same thing happened with Aberrant. Its difficult to get Storyteller to work at that power level and easier to get people to buy that's never want "the game was intended to be".
Honestly, I do think Exalts should be able to punch Cthullu in the face and live to tell about it. Not easily or casually but that was the reason they were created in the first place. And they did it. Its not easy to reconcile that outlook with the current concept of "anyone and everything must be a deadly danger or its not with having."
Quote from: Nexus;867081Honestly, I do think Exalts should be able to punch Cthulu in the face and live to tell about it.
Yes, because, IMO at least, they're on that level with Mythos entities... rather than the ordinary mortal investigators of CoC. But the most valiant farmer isn't going to put a scratch on either of them.
Quote from: Simlasa;867086Yes, because, IMO at least, they're on that level with Mythos entities... rather than the ordinary mortal investigators of CoC. But the most valiant farmer isn't going to put a scratch on either of them.
At least not in massive numbers.
Then again, there seems to be a line of thought that if you don't constantly throw enemy exalts at the players they are just going to walk all over the mortals.
And that this is somehow a bad thing.
I think a lot of people were reacting to the disparity between what the setting was telling them about how powerful Solars were and then the fact that they got whacked by beings significantly less powerful than they. So they wanted to drag things down, so that it made 'more sense'.
It's not something I ever really had a problem with. And I don't really see mortals as that much better in 3E anyways. The ONLY benefit they might get is ganging up for onslaught penalties and a Solar moderately invested in combat charms will have a way around that either through a) onslaught cancelers of one sort or another or b) not being around when guys want to gang up because you're shooting them from a few hundred yards away.
Now, should a mortal be a threat to a Solar with nothing invested in any combat skill or defensive skill? Sure. But those types of characters specialize in not getting into fights because you're now their best friend.
Quote from: Simlasa;867075That does seem to go against the original appeal of the game.
Long ago I had a spark of interest in Exalted's setting but not so much in running Exalts themselves... more like running ordinary mortals struggling in a world full of roaming demigods and stuff that's vastly more powerful than even the best mortal warrior.
But then, I'm a fan of Call of Cthulhu so maybe that's plays into why I like that idea. But having PCs who could punch Cthulhu in the face... and live to tell about it... would similarly be missing the point. Yet there's always some element of folks who want to play it that way.
I must admit the Celestial tier of Exalts have never appealed to me in the slightest. All the ideas about Exalted that inspired me to want to play a game capped out at the Terrestrial tier - even then I'd prefer a game which doesn't feature any Exalts at all.
One of my favourite notions was to set the game before the current age (10-20 years will do), so that there are no Solars/Abyssals/Infernals, Lunars are off doing whatever, Sidereals are hidden and not active in the world, we can pretend Alchemicals don't exist.
Then we have a much more grounded and manageable game, where Dragonblooded are the top tier of Exalts and few and far between away from the centre of the world. Instead we have Godblooded, Enlightened Mortals (do they even exist any more in 3e?), minor gods and even the odd Heroic Mortal as the focus.
Dear gods the levels of resistance from some of the usual suspects at the idea of depowering a game of Exalted like that...
I liked three ideas in particular, one creating a God-Blooded/Dragonblooded dynasty (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?647487-Exalted-Dragonblooded-God-Blooded-Building-a-supernatural-dynasty) in the Hundred Kingdoms.
The second a more focused sort of thing which could go in any direction, but it's about a scheme who's object is embarrassing a god (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?573432-Exalted-God-Blooded-Heaven-s-Rejects).
And lastly, using Exalted's pre-history for a sword and sorcery game (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?663452-Exalted-The-Time-of-Glory-Creation-s-pre-history-for-pulp-fantasy-goodness).
Quote from: Nexus;867081Sometimes I think its the same thing happened with Aberrant. Its difficult to get Storyteller to work at that power level and easier to get people to buy that's never want "the game was intended to be".
Honestly, I do think Exalts should be able to punch Cthullu in the face and live to tell about it. Not easily or casually but that was the reason they were created in the first place. And they did it. Its not easy to reconcile that outlook with the current concept of "anyone and everything must be a deadly danger or its not with having."
In a way it is; if Solars are a weapon designed to kill gods, then perhaps they have special techniques that work on gods, but not mortals?
But that means having people accept that they're not intrinsically better than every mortal they might come across, just because they're Solars.
Quote from: Kiero;867127In a way it is; if Solars are a weapon designed to kill gods, then perhaps they have special techniques that work on gods, but not mortals?
They'd also have to be stronger than mortal just do be able to use those "techniques". Any Exalt would have to be unless the Yozi and similar creatures aren't any more dangerous than mortals just "can't be killed by mundane means". Which is fine for a setting but its not how Exalted was billed on the box. Its allot more like every other fantasy game.
And it kills allot of the appeal for some of being "Exalted" if the only thing that means if you have the cheat code that lets you maybe kill some things if you don't get knifed in the back by a street thug before you get to them or something.
The Exalted, not just the Solars were created as weapons to destroy "unkillable" beings that created the Gods. So its easy to reconcile if you toss out what made the game interesting and different for many folks.
QuoteBut that means having people accept that they're not intrinsically better than every mortal they might come across, just because they're Solars.
You mean just because they're Exalted? Solars aren't the only types billed as beyond mortals. All of them are. That was kind of the point of making them distinct. Solars were just the most powerful. You become an Exalt, at least a Celestial Exalt in part because you're incredibly skills, heroic, driven, whatever. At the height of mortal capability. Being Exalt brings you to the next level or opens it up to you.
And even then unless you're very old you aren't better than every mortal at every possible field. Even if you're a Solar but in your field of focus? Yeah, I damn will think any Exalt should better than a equivalently focused mortal. Otherwise there's no much point to making them anything distinct.
That would mean accepting a completely different premise than the game was originally billed as. And I don't mean for Solars but of all the Exalts. Hell, Dragonblooded are in a way "better" at killing Mortals than Solars since anima flux will fatally injure most mortals that are just standing near them in a few seconds and there are a few cheap DB charms that render them totally immune to non essence based attacks in 1st.
But Lunars can become army slaying Kaiju. Sidereal Martial Arts open up attacks that devastate miles cheaper than Solar Circle Sorcery. Exalts, particular Celestial Exalts were billed and presented as very powerful beings, beyond mortals. That was the point of being Exalted.
There's nothing wrong with more modest power levels and mortal games. I ran one one myself for awhile. But really if I wanted to play a fantasy game with mortal adventurers that was somewhat better than average among many many peers there's dozen of functional systems that have been around for decades to do that. I and most of the Exalted fans I know where drawn to Exalted by the power levels, both the glamor and the idea of the consequences and problems of having and using that much power.
There's nothing wrong with that either.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;867089At least not in massive numbers.
Then again, there seems to be a line of thought that if you don't constantly throw enemy exalts at the players they are just going to walk all over the mortals.
And that this is somehow a bad thing.
See this tells me more than just a 'line of thought'. It's a fear, and a distrust of their own players.
I'm pretty sure everyone here has heard me say this, but I run a Mutants and Masterminds campaign (have for the past three years... Wow...) and I currently have an Ex-Boxer turned psychically powered tank (As in as tough as), a Archer with speedster powers, a Sonic Flying Blaster and a Russian Crime Fighter.
Now, It's an Iron Age campaign, in so much as there's drugs, death and I refuse to mechanically penalize players wanting to kill the villains. (Cops and such do look down on such activities after all.)
And the amount of PC's who've turned into mass murdering conscienceless hobos in my game? Zero. Yes, they've killed a few times, but they (in character) did not like it, and use it as a last and final resort, when nothing else works.
Here's the big back rub, I technically let them do whatever they want, but they don't ever 'cross the line', and I know this because I trust my players, my friends to act 'in setting'.
So my question becomes: What is it about these fans that terrifies them into refusing to let their players be super human?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;867136See this tells me more than just a 'line of thought'. It's a fear, and a distrust of their own players.
I'm pretty sure everyone here has heard me say this, but I run a Mutants and Masterminds campaign (have for the past three years... Wow...) and I currently have an Ex-Boxer turned psychically powered tank (As in as tough as), a Archer with speedster powers, a Sonic Flying Blaster and a Russian Crime Fighter.
Now, It's an Iron Age campaign, in so much as there's drugs, death and I refuse to mechanically penalize players wanting to kill the villains. (Cops and such do look down on such activities after all.)
And the amount of PC's who've turned into mass murdering conscienceless hobos in my game? Zero. Yes, they've killed a few times, but they (in character) did not like it, and use it as a last and final resort, when nothing else works.
Here's the big back rub, I technically let them do whatever they want, but they don't ever 'cross the line', and I know this because I trust my players, my friends to act 'in setting'.
So my question becomes: What is it about these fans that terrifies them into refusing to let their players be super human?
Well, to be honest, most issues with power levels in games give me the impression of very antagonistic relationships between both the players themselves and the GM.
That's not limited to Exalted mind you. Star Wars and D&D have a lot of threads on the net that boil down to "my player is awesome at something, how do I fuck them over by the rules".
Quote from: Warboss Squee;867089At least not in massive numbers.
Then again, there seems to be a line of thought that if you don't constantly throw enemy exalts at the players they are just going to walk all over the mortals.
And that this is somehow a bad thing.
There's been a few reasons put fourth and some that are my (addmitedly uncharitable) readings.
A fear that the players won't "engage" with the setting unless almost evetything in it is threatening or some sort of mechanically useful tool to exploit. Engage meaning either interact with or be interested in or in less friendly terms be afraid of and go along more with the GM's intended script because its easier to chase them back on track.
Fear that the players will run roughshod over the setting, changing it in lasting ways the gm wasn't prepared for or being general psychotic murderhobos that the gm can't control. or will derail the GM's "story".
The idea that some gamers have that high powered games are just Badwrongfun on principle. That often contains some of the previous two but not always sometimes being just a generalization of a preferences. "I don't like high powered games so they're instincially bad."
There's also been some social justice stuff thrown in for good measure, a dislike of the idea of stratification or that anyone is innately more power (read as better) than anyone else.
Quote from: Nexus;867147There's been a few reasons put fourth and some that are my (addmitedly uncharitable) readings.
A fear that the players won't "engage" with the setting unless almost evetything in it is threatening or some sort of mechanically useful tool to exploit. Engage meaning either interact with or be interested in or in less friendly terms be afraid of and go along more with the GM's intended script because its easier to chase them back on track.
Fear that the players will run roughshod over the setting, changing it in lasting ways the gm wasn't prepared for or being general psychotic murderhobos that the gm can't control. or will derail the GM's "story".
The idea that some gamers have that high powered games are just Badwrongfun on principle. That often contains some of the previous two but not always sometimes being just a generalization of a preferences. "I don't like high powered games so they're instincially bad."
There's also been some social justice stuff thrown in for good measure, a dislike of the idea of stratification or that anyone is innately more power (read as better) than anyone else.
The conflict between wanting to be better than everybody else and the position of actually being better than anyone else, not to mention the disparagement of "heroic" behavior (either in the altruist-superhero sense or the larger-than-life classical sense) while still wanting Kewl Powerz.
JG
Quote from: Christopher Brady;867136See this tells me more than just a 'line of thought'. It's a fear, and a distrust of their own players.
I'm pretty sure everyone here has heard me say this, but I run a Mutants and Masterminds campaign (have for the past three years... Wow...) and I currently have an Ex-Boxer turned psychically powered tank (As in as tough as), a Archer with speedster powers, a Sonic Flying Blaster and a Russian Crime Fighter.
Now, It's an Iron Age campaign, in so much as there's drugs, death and I refuse to mechanically penalize players wanting to kill the villains. (Cops and such do look down on such activities after all.)
And the amount of PC's who've turned into mass murdering conscienceless hobos in my game? Zero. Yes, they've killed a few times, but they (in character) did not like it, and use it as a last and final resort, when nothing else works.
Here's the big back rub, I technically let them do whatever they want, but they don't ever 'cross the line', and I know this because I trust my players, my friends to act 'in setting'.
So my question becomes: What is it about these fans that terrifies them into refusing to let their players be super human?
Your post is relevant to my own interests because, despite playing with a number of friends who are all self-avowed Marvel and DC fans, our sparse attempts to run four-color superhero games all have degenerated into super-murderhobos.
Granted, I was never the GM (and I'm generally considered the "tough love" one) but these aren't people who, when playing D&D, murder the innkeepers and city constabulary at the drop of a hat. When they played Traveller they weren't the "hold planet hostage with threat of near-c suicidal impact" sort. Hell, when we played frickin' Werewolf: the Apocalypse (you know, that funny old game where you play a 7-foot-tall fur-covered killing machine who drives bystanders crazy) they were more subtle and cautious.
In fact, these people
have played Exalted (a campaign I missed) and it was by all accounts a pretty chill game with plenty of slave-freeing and tyrant-toppling and evil-stomping and kingdom-building. No one went on peasant-gutting rampages, not even the Lunar on Limit Break.
I don't generally distrust my players because I'm the frickin' GM. I get to break out the big guns if they get too cocky. I don't fudge to save a callous player's character. Nevertheless, watching two or three attempts and supers games sink, even as a player, was frustrating enough that I sort of wrote off the whole genre. For now, anyway.
So if there are any tips, tricks, techniques or experiences on building and mantaining player buy-in, I'm all ears.
Tangent Start:
Quote from: The Butcher;867214So if there are any tips, tricks, techniques or experiences on building and mantaining player buy-in, I'm all ears.
The issue is that my players played superhero games before I came along, namely the FASERIP system which penalizes players for going on murder sprees. They are also huge supers fans, so they get in setting long before they make a character.
Honestly, man, I dunno what to tell ya. Wish I could help, cuz I loves me some supers, either Fantasy or Modern.
Tangent End.
The last estimate I saw for the actual full blown release for the third edition was "Several months" a few weeks ago. Has anyone heard anything different?
Quote from: Nexus;868647The last estimate I saw for the actual full blown release for the third edition was "Several months" a few weeks ago. Has anyone heard anything different?
IDK. This is a low bar shot, but at least they're farther along than Sarka.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;868670IDK. This is a low bar shot, but at least they're farther along than Sarka.
Zing! :D
(...but so true...)
Oh, that post that earned a permaban should be everyone's new sig there. Wow! Such utter fucking tools! I hate that damn site...
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;868734Zing! :D
(...but so true...)
Oh, that post that earned a permaban should be everyone's new sig there. Wow! Such utter fucking tools! I hate that damn site...
OK, this is somewhat of a tangent, but I think in a way relevant to Exalted.
Funny thing. Daddy Warpig, a poster I haven't seen here for a while, recently did a podcast with the Honey Badgers, they of the anti-feminist anti-censorship and men's rights in general, and had a talk about the intrusion of the authoritarian left into table top games.
Which, Warpig if you happen to read this, good on you man, I didn't know you were that involved with the adult section of the net like that. That said, I wish he'd have mentioned the blow up with OBS or rpg.net in general, since it would be nice to see that sort of thing get attention outside of our hobby, and I'm sure people would love to see the "Game devs write game, members of site criticize game both for it's faults and the bullshit behavior of it's writers, whom mod both major sites this is promoted on, and ban or bully the critics".
Because when it get's down to it, I think the reason I really haven't gotten into this new Exalted, is bias. And it's on my part, because I truly loath the people involved. I know I said I'd try to put that aside and try to look at the game on it's own merits, or lack thereof, but I really don't think I did/can.
Hey morons. Fucking morons. HOW HARD IS IT TO BOOKMARK A GODDAMN PDF?
I'll give you a hint, not fucking very, which is why bookmarked versions of the file were circulating 4chan within a day of the backers getting their copies.
Assholes.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;867219Honestly, man, I dunno what to tell ya. Wish I could help, cuz I loves me some supers, either Fantasy or Modern.
I'm at a loss too. I've seen the issue come up before but the usual causes (players aren't familiar with genre, don't like or don't really want to play it) don't appear to apply so I'm not really sure what to say or any advice to offer. Especially since they're not running into similar issues in other genres (so its not a matter of having too much 'freedom" outside of more structured settings).
Well, I appreciate the commiseration if nothing else. Thanks gents.
I've considered a more Hellboy/BPRD-esque "secret supers vs. weird menaces" campaign. Maybe the shades of nWoD would keep them grounded. Problem is, I'm not much in the mood for mission-based games these days.
Personally, I'd be happy if I had a non-Exalted uber powered fantasy....then I found out Kevin Crawford is working on Godbound, an OSR themed uber power fantasy game.
My prayers might have been answered!
They should just give up on using Storyteller for high powered games already. It just doesn't work. It didn't work for Exalted 1e, 2e or Scion.
Quote from: yosemitemike;868813They should just give up on using Storyteller for high powered games already. It just doesn't work. It didn't work for Exalted 1e, 2e or Scion.
Some of us argued it stopped working after Vampire: The Masquerade. Werewolf definitely broke it over it's knee.
Quote from: yosemitemike;868813They should just give up on using Storyteller for high powered games already. It just doesn't work. It didn't work for Exalted 1e, 2e or Scion.
The SOP appears to be try it, find it doesn't work then claim the game was never meant to be high powered and chastise people that were running it that way for "doing it wrong".
Quote from: Nexus;868647The last estimate I saw for the actual full blown release for the third edition was "Several months" a few weeks ago. Has anyone heard anything different?
By full blown release, do you mean the KS books or the POD on DTRPG?
Quote from: Nexus;868826The SOP appears to be try it, find it doesn't work then claim the game was never meant to be high powered and chastise people that were running it that way for "doing it wrong".
I personally think it could work, but it's not the base system that's at fault. It's all the crap that gets hammered onto it that drags it down.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;868734Oh, that post that earned a permaban should be everyone's new sig there. Wow! Such utter fucking tools! I hate that damn site...
*Notices Nexus's new sig, clicks it, reads it*
... Will these petty tyrants ever realize how they feed the very opposition they despise?
(http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q708/meencantabellany/tarkin-effect600_zpsd8abc5ab.jpg) (http://s1355.photobucket.com/user/meencantabellany/media/tarkin-effect600_zpsd8abc5ab.jpg.html)
Quote from: Skywalker;868834By full blown release, do you mean the KS books or the POD on DTRPG?
The final, publicly available PDF.
Quote from: Nexus;868840The final, publicly available PDF.
Cool. I would guess Mar, DTRPG POD in May, and KS print in Nov.
The topics come around to Exalt power levels again (it always does. For all the sophisticated talk about themes, narrative, blah blah, there's allot of dick measuring in Exated) and that long standing argument about the position of Dragonblooded on the power scale has come up once more.
Having the Dragonblooded by, on a one for one basis by the equivalent of a Celestial/'Solar is a weird idea. Even haing them a margially weaker when, as a group, they're out to bump off most Celestials, they're 10s of thousands of them, they lead the biggest empires in Creation so almost uniformly better equipped and backed than most Celestials and out number them all by around 10 to 1 in a system where combat is total numbers game and its difficult to fight even significantly weaker opponents that out number you (as individuals, its easier if they're glommed into Battle groups but apparently that is verboten when it comes to Exalt and suggesting it really twists panties).
It takes a dangerous, heroic situation and makes it basically pointless.
I don't have any idea how it will work in 3rd with narrowed power levels. The account I've heard differ. In 2nd I never had the Invincible Solars issue and, in fact, had to nerf the published stats before Solar even came close to the hype let and they were never unstoppable juggernauts walking roughshod over everyone with no effort.
Quote from: Nexus;868857The topics come around to Exalt power levels again (it always does. For all the sophisticated talk about themes, narrative, blah blah, there's allot of dick measuring in Exated) and that long standing argument about the position of Dragonblooded on the power scale has come up once more.
Having the Dragonblooded by, on a one for one basis by the equivalent of a Celestial/'Solar is a weird idea. Even haing them a margially weaker when, as a group, they're out to bump off most Celestials, they're 10s of thousands of them, they lead the biggest empires in Creation so almost uniformly better equipped and backed than most Celestials and out number them all by around 10 to 1 in a system where combat is total numbers game and its difficult to fight even significantly weaker opponents that out number you (as individuals, its easier if they're glommed into Battle groups but apparently that is verboten when it comes to Exalt and suggesting it really twists panties).
It takes a dangerous, heroic situation and makes it basically pointless.
I don't have any idea how it will work in 3rd with narrowed power levels. The account I've heard differ. In 2nd I never had the Invincible Solars issue and, in fact, had to nerf the published stats before Solar even came close to the hype let and they were never unstoppable juggernauts walking roughshod over everyone with no effort.
I remember when my GM ran the Princess of Nexus adventure I think it's called. We had on combat specced Dawn, one combat specced Zenith and on Twilight.
The NPC Abbysal in the adventure ripped us a new one, and even against just a few Terestrials we had trouble in general.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;868865I remember when my GM ran the Princess of Nexus adventure I think it's called. We had on combat specced Dawn, one combat specced Zenith and on Twilight.
The NPC Abbysal in the adventure ripped us a new one, and even against just a few Terestrials we had trouble in general.
Then you probably had "poorly"* built characters, which isn't your fault, because Exalted basically made a science out of the process.
And then Holden posts on the official forum that he wrote 3e with non optimized characters in mind. What a tool.
*Poorly means not adhering to a few specific strategies.
Quote from: Nexus;868857I don't have any idea how it will work in 3rd with narrowed power levels. The account I've heard differ. In 2nd I never had the Invincible Solars issue and, in fact, had to nerf the published stats before Solar even came close to the hype let and they were never unstoppable juggernauts walking roughshod over everyone with no effort.
I ran a short lived 2e game. As initial opponents, I made a group of 5 Dragonbloods who showed up to deal with the newly minted Solar PCs. They were starting characters with very average equipment. None of them had any of the crazy stuff that the Empire can give their people like Warstriders. They were just starting Dragonbloods made to fight as a team and take advantage of the synergy in their charms.
An hour later, I had to roll it all back and start the campaign over. 4 of the 5 Solars were dead and the last was running for his life. The only thing that saved him was that he was a Night caste built to be hard to find. The Solars were isolated, ganged up on and murdered one after the other.
You are all doing it wrong.... :D
Count me in as someone who has never had a problem with overpowered Solars...as it just never happened that way at our table. But then again, none of us are total rules-wizards...so i guess we were also doing it wrong.
The other possibility is that a lot of rpg.net Exalted gamers are interpreting the rules wrong (i mean 1e and 2e here).
Be that as it may, the mechanics just were never able to portray what was promised in the fluff. And it very much looks like 3e will also not provide on that promise. Now i know, the easiest way to "defeat" that complaint is to just say "Exalted was neve rmeant for XY bla bla" aka "You are doing it wrong". And no, i am not buying it.
@ Nexus - lol to your sig . What the hell??!!?
Quote from: Nexus;868857The topics come around to Exalt power levels again (it always does. For all the sophisticated talk about themes, narrative, blah blah, there's allot of dick measuring in Exated) and that long standing argument about the position of Dragonblooded on the power scale has come up once more.
Having the Dragonblooded by, on a one for one basis by the equivalent of a Celestial/'Solar is a weird idea. Even haing them a margially weaker when, as a group, they're out to bump off most Celestials, they're 10s of thousands of them, they lead the biggest empires in Creation so almost uniformly better equipped and backed than most Celestials and out number them all by around 10 to 1 in a system where combat is total numbers game and its difficult to fight even significantly weaker opponents that out number you (as individuals, its easier if they're glommed into Battle groups but apparently that is verboten when it comes to Exalt and suggesting it really twists panties).
It takes a dangerous, heroic situation and makes it basically pointless.
I don't have any idea how it will work in 3rd with narrowed power levels. The account I've heard differ. In 2nd I never had the Invincible Solars issue and, in fact, had to nerf the published stats before Solar even came close to the hype let and they were never unstoppable juggernauts walking roughshod over everyone with no effort.
From what we noticed: One on one a mortal is fucking toast and battlegroups are not quite as deadly as they are made out to be. They mostly seem useful in an Exalt+Battlegroup vs. other Exalts fight to keep the enemy Exalt from building too much initiative. This can also backfire as the enemy Exalt can use them to gain scads of initiative and turn it on the controlling Exalt. My players also had no problem being beacons of light that could be seen for miles around in order to deal with large battlegroups.
Exalt v Exalt combat: The quick antagonists presented are all usually experienced Exalts. Especially as far as DBs are concerned. Even when they aren't I think a combat specced DB vs. a combat specced Solar is going to lose. But not as badly as fluff would lead you to believe.
The two combats I ran were both Abyssal v Solar and bad matchups for the Solar. The first was Abyssal Melee vs. Solar Crane Style MA. The Crane Style Solar lost initiative and so lost most of their cool Crane counterattack shenanigans. He got hurt real bad. The second was Abyssal Stealth and Archery vs. Solar Melee. I played the archer intelligently and the Melee guy got wounded, but the Archer unassed the AO at the earliest opportunity so as not to get sliced up.
I still like the game, and am running a new campaign since one of the players in my previous one decided fantasy anything was poop. We'll see if any major problems end up cropping up in time, I suppose. I like the power level just fine so far.
Quote from: Michael Gray;868926This can also backfire as the enemy Exalt can use them to gain scads of initiative and turn it on the controlling Exalt.
Have you seen this actually happen? I ask because this is a tactic I've seen suggested for some time now but the devs and some fans have been screaming for months that it's suicide and completely nonviable.
Quote from: Brand55;868931Have you seen this actually happen? I ask because this is a tactic I've seen suggested for some time now but the devs and some fans have been screaming for months that it's suicide and completely nonviable.
Sort of? It wasn't vs. an Exalt, but there was a pretty boss zombie mammoth solo mixed in with some battlegroups in our campaign and the guy that was really good at killing all the things did just that. Genned up some Initiative from a battlegroup of regular zombies and then used it to whack the mammoth.
It might get iffy with Charms thrown into play. But I can't think of any reason why it SHOULDN'T work, barring weird ideas people have about how the 'story' interacts with the system. Like the whole "Your character will never actually be able to to tell the difference between withering and decisive attacks." thing. Which, anyone who has done ANY fighting knows is bullshit.
All this might be moot after the new White Wolf announcement. They're re-assessing the entirety of Exalted and the "problems" surrounding the current state of the game.
What does that mean? Did they lost so much money from refunds that they are looking things over?
Quote from: Snowman0147;868943What does that mean? Did they lost so much money from refunds that they are looking things over?
The issues as I see them:
The original kickstarter was supposed to be fulfilled in Dec. 2013. It is now Dec. 2015. This is due to scrapping EVERYTHING and starting over from scratch very soon after the kickstarter was funded. Some people see this as shady. I'm not necessarily one of them, but I can see why that's a thing. Especially with some of the stretch goals being what they were.
Playtesting went poorly. In that they ended the sort of open playtest and then echo chamber'd the whole thing after someone under NDA leaked a playtest doc. I still will never understand NDAs for RPGs. No one is going to steal your fly new RPG technology. Because there is no fly new RPG technology to steal. Then again, I'm not a lawyer. There may be good reasons. The stated one of "We'll get too much trolling from fans dissatisfied with our work" does not seem to be a good one to me. Anywho, playtesting basically ended. And we all know how well that went with 2E. Which was cited as a reason to playtest this version.
Layout. Oh my gorb the interminable layout process. Also not a professional layout artist. But I know people who are. And they would state their disbelief that the whole layout process took as long as it did. They stated they would fire any layout artist that took that long for any book. We were also told the layout was the best thing since sliced bread. It's OK.
The art. Oh man. The art. Multiple pieces of copyright infringement abound. Some of the art is just plain bad. There are some good pieces, sure. But there was a whole lot of amateur hour there too.
Holden. He, basically, needs to keep his mouth shut. He is not what I would call a good brand ambassador. If I were a company buying a property, I would not want him representing me. Yes, he is a freelancer. But he really hurts the game more than he helps, in regards to social interactions.
RichT. Yeah, he was busy, I'm sure. But communication is key. We went a long time as Kickstarter backers without updates. And sure, some of them were on the Onyx Path forums or website. But, that's not the point. The people that supported the game did not get official updates. And I understand other KS projects from OP are much better about this.
That's just some stuff I saw as problems. I'm sure Paradox has some more issues as well like: How the funding of the KS went. Originally the KS was only about making The Big Gold Monstrosity of Book and doing stretch goals. OP was going to do the book anyways. They made around $650,000 on that KS. Were I Paradox, I would want to know where that money went. Was it spent on the things they said it would be spent on? Etc.
Anyways, that's just my 2 cents. I could be wrong.
Quote from: tenbones;868942All this might be moot after the new White Wolf announcement. They're re-assessing the entirety of Exalted and the "problems" surrounding the current state of the game.
Source? Or is this just you interpreting stuff? AFAIK there was never any question of Exalted 3E going on even with the change in ownership. If this has changed, i would like to see the official statements. Are there any?
Like I said before the dev team of Exalted third edition should had been fired. Now I hope they pay for their shady activities.
Quote from: Anglachel;868961Source? Or is this just you interpreting stuff? AFAIK there was never any question of Exalted 3E going on even with the change in ownership. If this has changed, i would like to see the official statements. Are there any?
Yeah, last I heard Paradox-White Wolf (ParaWolf?) had given OP the nod to keep chugging along with Exalted.
Parawolf will make an appearance in the next supers game I run.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;868805Personally, I'd be happy if I had a non-Exalted uber powered fantasy....then I found out Kevin Crawford is working on Godbound, an OSR themed uber power fantasy game.
My prayers might have been answered!
Incidentally, the first piece of preview art for this has been released. You can see it here: https://plus.google.com/+KevinCrawford/posts/hjYpWW3r6fM (https://plus.google.com/+KevinCrawford/posts/hjYpWW3r6fM)
I think it's on par with some of the better Exalted art and wouldn't really be out of place in that book. I know it's only one piece, but if the rest of the art is of similar quality then Godbound should at least be the prettiest Sine Nomine book yet. Apart from the cover, of course, which I say has to go to Stars Without Number's free version; Godbound would have to have a truly amazing cover to beat SWN's star field.
Though I must say one of the first things I noted was that the woman was showing some leg. Hopefully that won't have to be blurred out before the final book sees release like a certain other title. :D
Kevin your giving Exalted too much credit. Your book would be out long before Exalted happens. Which if that happens I would be bragging to the Exalted fans who would be hating life.
Quote from: Snowman0147;870208Kevin your giving Exalted too much credit. Your book would be out long before Exalted happens. Which if that happens I would be bragging to the Exalted fans who would be hating life.
And what, exactly, are you planning to tell to people like me?
I mean, I like both Exalted and Kevin'Smith books, being a backer of both. I lose nothing, no matter which one comes out first.
Okay valid point on your part, but your the exception considering you went for both Exalted and Godbound. I was mainly referring to the rpg.net crowd. As for what I will say.
"Got my book before you. Got my book before you. With no copyright art and not having to wait years to get it."
Only make it more singing. Point is I want to rub it in so more fans of Exalted will get piss off with the piss poor dev team they have to deal with. Mainly because they should be angry and not sucking up to them.
Quote from: Snowman0147;870236Only make it more singing. Point is I want to rub it in so more fans of Exalted will get piss off with the piss poor dev team they have to deal with. Mainly because they should be angry and not sucking up to them.
I think Exalted has a really great dev team for giving a particular group of fans exactly what they want. After two heavy-crunch versions of the game, it can't be a big surprise to the fanbase that 3e dials it up to eleven. There are a lot of people who are having a great time with the new combat system and the new charm philosophy, and they're completely justified in enjoying it.
Unsurprisingly, though, this isn't exactly what every fan wants, and there have been some missteps in the launch. I don't think that's much of a surprise with something that's big enough to have thousands of interested fans but too small to afford a professional PR front end. I think 3e is going to provide a lot of fun to a broad segment of players, and I'm hoping Godbound can provide equal entertainment to a similar, partially-overlapping group.
Allot of the acrimony during EX3 development stemmed from the Devs and other staff being rude, condescending and unduly snarky with people that had either already given them money or who's money they expected to get. Avoiding that doesn't (or at least shouldn't) require any sort of professional PR.
The proliferation of Exalted types feels like it cheapens the concept in much the same way the ability to mass produce superhumans does in supers settings, particularly when combined with the reduced power levels and lessened overall impact on Creation that appears to be a goal in 3rd. That and it comes across as just a ploy to make sure there's a steady stream of more books and laundry lists of charms.
Quote from: Snowman0147;870236Okay valid point on your part, but your the exception considering you went for both Exalted and Godbound. I was mainly referring to the rpg.net crowd. As for what I will say.
"Got my book before you. Got my book before you. With no copyright art and not having to wait years to get it."
Only make it more singing. Point is I want to rub it in so more fans of Exalted will get piss off with the piss poor dev team they have to deal with. Mainly because they should be angry and not sucking up to them.
Given that the most common activity on RPG.net seems to be discussing who got banned this week, I think the main motivation for still being there is masochism.
JG
Quote from: Snowman0147;870236Okay valid point on your part, but your the exception considering you went for both Exalted and Godbound.
Citation very much needed here. Do you have any data confirming it:)?
Quote from: SineNomine;870237I think Exalted has a really great dev team for giving a particular group of fans exactly what they want. After two heavy-crunch versions of the game, it can't be a big surprise to the fanbase that 3e dials it up to eleven. There are a lot of people who are having a great time with the new combat system and the new charm philosophy, and they're completely justified in enjoying it.
Unsurprisingly, though, this isn't exactly what every fan wants, and there have been some missteps in the launch. I don't think that's much of a surprise with something that's big enough to have thousands of interested fans but too small to afford a professional PR front end. I think 3e is going to provide a lot of fun to a broad segment of players, and I'm hoping Godbound can provide equal entertainment to a similar, partially-overlapping group.
And that professionalism is why Sine Nomine is among my favourite publishers;).
Quote from: SineNomine;870237I think Exalted has a really great dev team for giving a particular group of fans exactly what they want. After two heavy-crunch versions of the game, it can't be a big surprise to the fanbase that 3e dials it up to eleven. There are a lot of people who are having a great time with the new combat system and the new charm philosophy, and they're completely justified in enjoying it.
Unsurprisingly, though, this isn't exactly what every fan wants, and there have been some missteps in the launch. I don't think that's much of a surprise with something that's big enough to have thousands of interested fans but too small to afford a professional PR front end. I think 3e is going to provide a lot of fun to a broad segment of players, and I'm hoping Godbound can provide equal entertainment to a similar, partially-overlapping group.
You promoted your game without bashing on another one. In fact you were positive about it. And not in a condescending "Well, I'm sure that can be fun too. I guess...if you're into that..." way either.
That's professional and classy.
Quote from: Nexus;870310You promoted your game without bashing on another one. In fact you were positive about it. And not in a condescending "Well, I'm sure that can be fun too. I guess...if you're into that..." way either.
That's professional and classy.
It's just one of the many reasons I have no hesitation throwing money Kevin's way when he puts out new stuff.
Once upon a time I loved having hundreds and even thousands of powers and Charms to go through. Being able to pick just the right abilities was great. Then I realized that it was really more trouble than I wanted to mess with. I understand why people like having those options, though, because I used to be one of those people. I just really wish EX3 would have ditched its Storyteller roots. I could have maybe gotten on board even with all the Charms if the basic system was one I liked better.
SineNomine, if you're still watching, is the art in Godbound expected to be entirely color or a mix of color and B&W?
Quote from: Brand55;870330SineNomine, if you're still watching, is the art in Godbound expected to be entirely color or a mix of color and B&W?
Entirely color, with free-for-other-people's-commercial-use being one of the planned stretch goals. I'm trying to block most of it out so that it can be recycled for cover illos for other publishers, because getting a flashy, eye-catching color cover is often one of the biggest expenses for a small publisher. With a little carefulness in art direction, you can use horizontal half-pagers as cover-bar style front illos a la old-school module covers, and you can use vertical half-pagers as vertical bar-style covers, with your text on the other half of the page.
Quote from: Brand55;870330It's just one of the many reasons I have no hesitation throwing money Kevin's way when he puts out new stuff.
Once upon a time I loved having hundreds and even thousands of powers and Charms to go through. Being able to pick just the right abilities was great. Then I realized that it was really more trouble than I wanted to mess with. I understand why people like having those options, though, because I used to be one of those people. I just really wish EX3 would have ditched its Storyteller roots. I could have maybe gotten on board even with all the Charms if the basic system was one I liked better.
I wasn't expecting "Rules Lite" but I admit I wasn't expecting for them to double down on charm bloat and push them into the 4 digit range. The new rules are functional. I'll give them that but I think they're overwrought and needlessly dense and make some assumptions I don't want like combat very much a numbers game, a factor which has always seem to massively favor the Dragonblooded on a setting level when the Solars are allegedly the default protagonists. Just the whole project spun off in directions I didn't like.
Of course I have no citation. I am basing this on most people who go to rpg.net and those that play exalted that I had personally meet. Most people have a disdain for D&D mechanics if not disgust. So going by personal experiences here.
As for my reaction? That I will explain. The Exalted devs, especially Holden, had been shits to their customers. So much so that people been ban for asking basic questions. Some had been indirectly accused of hating the book even there was nothing to come to that conclusion. This shitty behavior been going on so much that I can't believe people would kiss up to them.
I just want karma to kick in and do some thing.
Quote from: Snowman0147;870346I just want karma to kick in and do some thing.
This would be a nice sentiment if 'Karma' actually did exist. Then again, maybe not, imagine if all the bad things in your life happened because somehow you deserved them. That would be a shitty way to experience life, now wouldn't it?
No, the Ex3 crew is not going to keep on trucking as they always have. It's not 'Karma' that will do them in, it's the incestuous pool of circle-jerking fans that will ostracize and demean and hate anyone that might help the Onyx Path to be successful.
So for me, I hope that OP continue doing what they do, and simply fade away into nothing.
Quote from: SineNomine;870237I think Exalted has a really great dev team for giving a particular group of fans exactly what they want.
The group of fans appears to be the most vocal members of the rpg.net contingent of Exalted fandom. I can't say for certain and they claim their choices are based on extensive feed back but I'm not where they're getting it aside from the usual "Silent Majority" that support so many things online. Especially considering how many fans seem to have been alienated by their choices (but, fairly the unpleasant attitude they received when they voiced concerns, complaints and other issues did not help win them over to the new point of view) I really wonder.
Exalted has too many passionate fans to appeal to all of them equally but still I wonder how narrow their focus is going to be. Like the claim that Solar Exalted are the most popular and commonly played "splat" then instituting some setting changes that seem almost hostile towards them in the material (again mirror allot of rpg.net's attitude).
Reading rpg.net a while back, one would have gotten the idea that everyone had abandoned D&D in favor of hacking Dogs in the Vineyard to do every imaginable sort of game. Everyone remembers Dogs in the Vineyard, right? It's the big thing. I don't really trust the claims of the most vocal rpg.net crowd. They are not nearly as important or representative as they imagine themselves to be.
Hopefully OPP will know better than to pander to the Exalted Fandumb too much.
Or they could have just made a better Exalted and let it stand on it's own merits without pandering to any one base.
Considering that most (or all of it?) of the dev team are rpg.net guys and half of them even mods, i guess it's safe to say that the hope that we will not get a rpg.net Exalted version was a lost cause from the start.
So pandering is kind of inherent to this particular game.
Depending on what side you land on, this is a big plus or minus. I think that the setting is still a good one with some cool additions to it from the new team. My big problem is and was with the system. And 3e added a new layer of "seriously, that's how you do things?" and "What, that's how you talk to your customers...wow..." with an extra helping of "well, i should be surprised by this...but sadly, i'm not...".
Somebody should consider contacting Paradox and proposing an opening up of the Exalted setting to several contributers, like FASA did for Earthdawn, apparently. I think it would be awesome to see what other systems (and companies) could do with a license to the setting. Considering that there is a big chunk of the fandom that does not like the way 3e is doing things, i am sure there would be interest, and therefore money, in it.
That is actually a great idea.
Quote from: yosemitemike;870424Reading rpg.net a while back, one would have gotten the idea that everyone had abandoned D&D in favor of hacking Dogs in the Vineyard to do every imaginable sort of game. Everyone remembers Dogs in the Vineyard, right? It's the big thing. I don't really trust the claims of the most vocal rpg.net crowd. They are not nearly as important or representative as they imagine themselves to be.
Hopefully OPP will know better than to pander to the Exalted Fandumb too much.
At this point, i think OPP can't do anything about how much the devs pandered to rpg.net crowd. Or care.
I said that I hoped that they would know better not that it was likely. They probably will pander to these fans which will result in a new edition that serves a very vocal minority who will probably bitch about it endlessly anyway and leaves everyone else cold. It will probably also leave them with the sort of nasty, self-righteous, zealous fanbase that turns people off.
I have always though that Exalted had a ton of potential to be great. That's why I have a 2 foot high stack of Exalted books in the bottom of my closet. Unfortunately, it is saddled with a system that doesn't work for what it wants to do and a highly vocal minority fanbase that pushes for things they feel very strongly about but most gamers don't care about at all.
Quote from: yosemitemike;870483I said that I hoped that they would know better not that it was likely. They probably will pander to these fans which will result in a new edition that serves a very vocal minority who will probably bitch about it endlessly anyway and leaves everyone else cold. It will probably also leave them with the sort of nasty, self-righteous, zealous fanbase that turns people off.
I have always though that Exalted had a ton of potential to be great. That's why I have a 2 foot high stack of Exalted books in the bottom of my closet. Unfortunately, it is saddled with a system that doesn't work for what it wants to do and a highly vocal minority fanbase that pushes for things they feel very strongly about but most gamers don't care about at all.
Of course, nothing can possibly prevent you from adapting the setting for a system you do care about. I did that for different systems between the time I swore off 2e and the time when 3e was released. At this point, I'm able to model Exalted after quite a few systems.
Just keep in mind, all systems would add their own flavour, so the hardest thing to achieve is Vanilla Exalted.
Then again, I don't think "Devil-May-Care" Exalted via Savage Worlds is worse, and "There's a cost to greatness" Exalted via Sorcerer is explicitly modeled after a major theme of the setting, not to mention the "Wulin Exalted" variants.
Then again, I like the current edition so far.
Quote from: AsenRG;870499Of course, nothing can possibly prevent you from adapting the setting for a system you do care about.
Nothing except the time involved. Given that I am running four different games right now, time for this is in short supply.
Quote from: AsenRG;870499Just keep in mind, all systems would add their own flavour, so the hardest thing to achieve is Vanilla Exalted.
Good thing I never mentioned such a thing then.
Quote from: AsenRG;870499Then again, I like the current edition so far.
I don't think it is ever really going to work as long as they keep Storyteller as the system. Storyteller just doesn't work for high powered games.
Quote from: Ghosthead;19683125At the same time, there is a status quo to the world of Creation. It is a fantasy setting, dominated by proud mighty heroes, arcing inevitably towards tragic fates. Leave it and come back in 1000 years, and you'd still find a place where epic heroes quarrel for love and supremacy, while mortal till the soil, fish and raise herds, albeit probably with a higher level of sophistication to their artefacts, magic and cities.
There is that degree of status quo.
It's not so much a fantasy setting in the inevitable process of being transformed into a modern / industrial / sci fi / supers setting by the heroic PCs. The PCs are there to make a mark *within* the world's genre, not make their mark by revolutionizing the genre.
Quote from: Understandor;19683391If you want an Exalted game with complete and lasting victory, one that can never be taken back or reversed.
Play an Abyssials campaign.
Clink your glasses together as the whole of creations shrieks and rips itself apart, spiraling into the Ever Hungry Maw.
Lets see the genre expectations survive that!
Quote from: Icarium;19683356Yeah, that sounds a lot like 'This is the World of Darkness, Fantasy Style!' ... which is not what you probably want, but what it sounds like.
People are really just now noticing its World of Darkness with a Fantasy coating? It felt that way for years to me. Its whatr I figured it would turn into from day 1. I was more surprised that it was a such relatively slow transformation compared to say, Aberrant (World of Darkness with a superhero coating). And disappointed that I fell for it again. Its how every Storyteller game seems to work out. I know the pattern and I called allot of what happened: the setting was going to get grimmer, PC "movers and shakers" were going to marginalized more and more in favor maintaining the integrity of the setting (and this was going to be touted as a merit). The Solars in particular and the Exalted as a whole were going to be made "realistic" by having more shit smeared on them with the possible exception of some group that become a vocal favorite among the fans, usually for being "underdogs".
And the ceaseless sneering down at other games and genres...
I reallly can't believe I was such a dumbass to think that this time it might different and stuck with it for so long, am still sticking with it to some extent though my game's setting is highly variant.
Quote from: Nexus;871404People are really just now noticing its World of Darkness with a Fantasy coating? It felt that way for years to me. Its whatr I figured it would turn into from day 1. I was more surprised that it was a such relatively slow transformation compared to say, Aberrant (World of Darkness with a superhero coating). And disappointed that I fell for it again. Its how every Storyteller game seems to work out. I know the pattern and I called allot of what happened: the setting was going to get grimmer, PC "movers and shakers" were going to marginalized more and more in favor maintaining the integrity of the setting (and this was going to be touted as a merit). The Solars in particular and the Exalted as a whole were going to be made "realistic" by having more shit smeared on them with the possible exception of some group that become a vocal favorite among the fans, usually for being "underdogs".
And the ceaseless sneering down at other games and genres...
I reallly can't believe I was such a dumbass to think that this time it might different and stuck with it for so long, am still sticking with it to some extent though my game's setting is highly variant.
It's always been fantasy oWoD, with all the stupidity that implied. Hell, it's common knowledge that Exalted was supposed to the the ancient history of the oWoD, the exalt types matching up with the lines of the oWoD. Except for Solars, whom go from being supposedly all powerful...to Hunters, which got shitty powers from God (I think) with the catch of going batshit insane from said powers.
But let's face it, he two games have a lot in common regardless, when you add the 'Elders that are so much more powerful than you so don't get noticed' and the so very many things that are going to destroy the world that while you deal with one, the other 999 go off and it's game over.
Hell, just tying it to the oWoD guarantees that the default end is not going to be good for anyone.
Quote from: Nexus;871404And the ceaseless sneering down at other games and genres...
Just curious, where does that appear? Exalted's setting seems like such a kitchen sink of borrowings I wouldn't think it had any stones to throw.
Quote from: Simlasa;871430Just curious, where does that appear? Exalted's setting seems like such a kitchen sink of borrowings I wouldn't think it had any stones to throw.
TBP is famous for it's mocking of D&D by claiming that Exalted is somehow 'better' in various forms of pejoratives and language. And it's also the place that famously ghetto'ed D&D into it's own section.
Quote from: Simlasa;871430Just curious, where does that appear? Exalted's setting seems like such a kitchen sink of borrowings I wouldn't think it had any stones to throw.
In practically any discussion of the game there comes a point (if not several) where one of the staff or fanbase takes pains to shit all over something else, usually D and D but superhero games/comics, action movies and other fantasy have had their turns. Just a day or so ago, there was a little bash fest on superhero comics.
And you're right. It does borrow (or outright steal and co opt) from many sources which makes the sneering all the more hypocritical.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;871432TBP is famous for it's mocking of D&D by claiming that Exalted is somehow 'better' in various forms of pejoratives and language. And it's also the place that famously ghetto'ed D&D into it's own section.
With the irony being that most of the things that made it different from D and D have toned or done away with. The label "D and D for people that think they're too good for D and D" has never been more apt, IMO.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;871432TBP is famous for it's mocking of D&D by claiming that Exalted is somehow 'better' in various forms of pejoratives and language. And it's also the place that famously ghetto'ed D&D into it's own section.
Ah, OK... I misread and thought you meant the gamebooks themselves where sneering down at others... which I hadn't noticed in my (limited) reading of them. Its something that always turns me off, when rules authors do that sort of thing.
Quote from: Simlasa;871435Ah, OK... I misread and thought you meant the gamebooks themselves where sneering down at others... which I hadn't noticed in my (limited) reading of them. Its something that always turns me off, when rules authors do that sort of thing.
I think the back blurb of the 1st edition did that, then they realized how tacky and childish it sounded and changed it.
I could also be misremembering.
Quote from: Nexus;871433In practically any discussion of the game there comes a point (if not several) where one of the staff or fanbase takes pains to shit all over something else, usually D and D but superhero games/comics, action movies and other fantasy have had their turns. Just a day or so ago, there was a little bash fest on superhero comics.
And you're right. It does borrow (or outright steal and co opt) from many sources which makes the sneering all the more hypocritical.
The shitting on the superhero genre is even more laughable, when Exalted is blatantly a supers game. Sure everyone is at pains to waffle volumes of bullshit about how different it is, but it isn't really.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;871437I think the back blurb of the 1st edition did that, then they realized how tacky and childish it sounded and changed it.
I could also be misremembering.
There was the whole "Evolve your game" debacle too.
Quote from: Kiero;871439The shitting on the superhero genre is even more laughable, when Exalted is blatantly a supers game. Sure everyone is at pains to waffle volumes of bullshit about how different it is, but it isn't really.
Yep. Its only that different if your only conception of a superhero game is based on the original Superfriends.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;871437I think the back blurb of the 1st edition did that, then they realized how tacky and childish it sounded and changed it.
I looked at my copy of 1e and didn't see anything like that... though there's a hint of pretentious twaddle in the intro and afterword. Must be a later printing.
Quote from: Kiero;871439The shitting on the superhero genre is even more laughable, when Exalted is blatantly a supers game. Sure everyone is at pains to waffle volumes of bullshit about how different it is, but it isn't really.
Its really something the WW/Storyteller games have been doing practically sense their beginning: claiming the alleged intellectual and creative high ground and sneering down at other games and setting from it while doing the same crap their doing. But usually without the added layer of pretension and grimdark.
Quote from: Simlasa;871457I looked at my copy of 1e and didn't see anything like that... though there's a hint of pretentious twaddle in the intro and afterword. Must be a later printing.
I might have been remembering Riddle of Steel 1e. That had the anti-D&D blurb, I think.
Quote from: Brand55;819899It makes it a shiny turd. And as the guys behind Cards Against Humanity proved, lots of people will shell out money for feces.
As a wee tangent, I was able to finally play CAH over the holidays. What garbage. So much revolved around childish bits, such as card with Pacman guzzling semen. Really? What's sad is that really clever bits, even if offensive, were often ignored for infantile dick-and-shit jokes. I realize the group, as with anything, has a lot to do with it, but there were far too many times I saw people screwed because they didn't have enough cards about semen, shit, rape, kids with ass cancer, or something about the Holocaust (or whatever other crap was on the "edgey" cards). YMMV, and I don't judge people who play it, but after hearing so much about how great this game was, I was profoundly disappointed.
Which leads me to the complete fail Ex3 is and the near-erection I get watching the Outrage Brigade eat their own over it. After all the arrogant asshattery and lying OPP pulled, I revel in how poorly received their shit-stain of a game is.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;873631As a wee tangent, I was able to finally play CAH over the holidays. What garbage. So much revolved around childish bits, such as card with Pacman guzzling semen. Really? What's sad is that really clever bits, even if offensive, were often ignored for infantile dick-and-shit jokes. I realize the group, as with anything, has a lot to do with it, but there were far too many times I saw people screwed because they didn't have enough cards about semen, shit, rape, kids with ass cancer, or something about the Holocaust (or whatever other crap was on the "edgey" cards). YMMV, and I don't judge people who play it, but after hearing so much about how great this game was, I was profoundly disappointed.
Which leads me to the complete fail Ex3 is and the near-erection I get watching the Outrage Brigade eat their own over it. After all the arrogant asshattery and lying OPP pulled, I revel in how poorly received their shit-stain of a game is.
CAH is absolutely not for everyone as its brand of humor is certainly not universal. But I was actually referring to the time they sold boxes of literal shit (to the tune of $180,000) for Black Friday:
http://time.com/3634443/cards-against-humanity-poop-black-friday/ (http://time.com/3634443/cards-against-humanity-poop-black-friday/)
At least they gave the profits to the charity, but it still amazes me so many people bought the stuff.
And since we're on a tangent, the latest beta for Godbound came out recently. It's apparently going to be a series of products like Stars Without Number now, and there's even going to be Godwalkers to satisfy my craving for mech combat. If I had any doubts it was going to fully replace Exalted for all my demigod-fantasy needs, they've been banished after hearing about all the goodies to come.
Looks like I need to download a beta. Still sounds like all he needs is tiers of power. Playable Samuel angels for celestial level and creations of magic for terrestrial.
Quote from: Snowman0147;873661Looks like I need to download a beta. Still sounds like all he needs is tiers of power. Playable Samuel angels for celestial level and creations of magic for terrestrial.
Tiers of play will sort of be included. There's going to be a free version of the game (like with SWN) and a deluxe version that includes a bunch of extra goodies. I'll post the list here (from here: https://plus.google.com/+KevinCrawford (https://plus.google.com/+KevinCrawford)):
Quote* Themed Godbound, for constructing Godbound types that share thematic elements, whether as paragons of human capability, elemental scions, or mysterious refugees from the celestial engines of causality.
* The True Strifes, mythic martial arts that embody a cosmic conflict. Godbound can master the True Strifes, while mortals can learn the lesser Strifes that serve as pale echoes of their power.
* Cybernetics and clockwork prosthetics for chroming up mortal heroes in campaigns that like that sort of thing.
* Godwalkers, hulking war machines that come in bipedal and vehicle formats. Currently only manufactured by the theotechnical tribes of the Thousand Gods, but ancient ones can be found in storage, or built anew by artificer-Godbound. Includes rules for making and customizing your own godwalkers.
* Mortal PCs, with rules on creating non-Godbound heroes and running campaigns with less blessed protagonists.
* The seven orders of Ancalian knighthood, both as setting flavor and as a worked example of how to create organizations with tiered special perks for members to gain.
* And more stuff as space and vigor allow.
So at the very least it sounds like it will have two tiers with Godbound and mortal levels of play, plus you have to include sorcery and martial arts in there. It's also worked into the factions and kingdom-running system so you can be a Godbound doing all kinds of crazy shenanigans on a regional level or just the mayor of the local village.
And that just might be the biggest draw of the game for me. The fact you actually get help playing a demigod who can make world-altering decisions and affect a kingdom? That's awesome, and it's something that Exalted is sorely lacking.
Okay read the beta. My only complaint was some of the sorceries. Gate tier allows you to summon up to 10d6 hd worth of undead which is epic. Sure most are 1 hd undead, but still that is epic. My complaint is that the higher tier summon spells are lacking. I mean summoning clay golems at most is 20 hd worth while the final tier has super golems at 12 hd. Oh sure the benefits are nice, but army of the dead.
Quote from: Snowman0147;873694Okay read the beta. My only complaint was some of the sorceries. Gate tier allows you to summon up to 10d6 hd worth of undead which is epic. Sure most are 1 hd undead, but still that is epic. My complaint is that the higher tier summon spells are lacking. I mean summoning clay golems at most is 20 hd worth while the final tier has super golems at 12 hd. Oh sure the benefits are nice, but army of the dead.
I'm not sure I agree. All of the different summons have their advantages, but just glancing over them I can see how a character could get up to mischief with any of them. The main thing about that army of the dead is that they'll die very, very quickly when faced with any real opposition and you won't get that many until high level. Whereas having even a few 2 HD golems immune to non-magical attacks or a servitor who is basically a Godbound-lite would be extremely useful.
But that's just my initial thoughts. I haven't read the beta cover-to-cover yet, so I can't say anything concrete about game balance.
Quote from: Brand55;873649CAH is absolutely not for everyone as its brand of humor is certainly not universal. But I was actually referring to the time they sold boxes of literal shit (to the tune of $180,000) for Black Friday:
http://time.com/3634443/cards-against-humanity-poop-black-friday/ (http://time.com/3634443/cards-against-humanity-poop-black-friday/)
At least they gave the profits to the charity, but it still amazes me so many people bought the stuff.
And since we're on a tangent, the latest beta for Godbound came out recently. It's apparently going to be a series of products like Stars Without Number now, and there's even going to be Godwalkers to satisfy my craving for mech combat. If I had any doubts it was going to fully replace Exalted for all my demigod-fantasy needs, they've been banished after hearing about all the goodies to come.
I was not aware of people buying shit. Wow, is that...no. I just want the topic to end. :)
I got the .012 Godbound beta and skimmed through and loved it. The GM advice section is phenomenal and now there are mechs, too? I'm sold!
Its telling that the, out of the flock of Exalted defenders in the "What turned you off on Exalted?" (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?773269-Exalted-What-turned-you-off) thread that so far the only person to attract Mod attention was someone saying they were going to use it to complain.
The truth is that, though Cessna is still an admin, he has long since abandoned his admin responsibilities. All he cares about now is making his own life easier. That person was banned from that thread because what he had to say would make the Butthurt Brigade cause a stink and make Cessna actually administer the forum where he is an admin. To prevent that, he ordered the person out of the thread without even bothering to make up a token reason for why he was doing it.
Are they still letting people who work for OPP moderate threads where OPP products are being discussed?
Quote from: yosemitemike;873854The truth is that, though Cessna is still an admin, he has long since abandoned his admin responsibilities. All he cares about now is making his own life easier. That person was banned from that thread because what he had to say would make the Butthurt Brigade cause a stink and make Cessna actually administer the forum where he is an admin. To prevent that, he ordered the person out of the thread without even bothering to make up a token reason for why he was doing it.
Are they still letting people who work for OPP moderate threads where OPP products are being discussed?
Yes, as far as I know though the mod community seems so tight knit it doesn't seem like it would matter much there was a rule against it. It would just be for appearances sake.
You should have noticed that a big defender of the current edition also got chased from the thread;).
Quote from: AsenRG;873917You should have noticed that a big defender of the current edition also got chased from the thread;).
Recently, after several condescending "I'm gonna say what I want!" posts compared to one mildly annoyed one and after attention was called to the peculiar nature of the earlier threadban. So not proof of impartiality, IMO. Maybe more evidence that the mods care more about making their jobs easier and appearances than enforcing even their own vague and arbitrary rules. And that people with the right opinions can push the boundaries further than people guilty of wrong thinking.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;868865I remember when my GM ran the Princess of Nexus adventure I think it's called. We had on combat specced Dawn, one combat specced Zenith and on Twilight.
The NPC Abbysal in the adventure ripped us a new one, and even against just a few Terestrials we had trouble in general.
Quote from: Efaun;868867Then you probably had "poorly"* built characters, which isn't your fault, because Exalted basically made a science out of the process.
And then Holden posts on the official forum that he wrote 3e with non optimized characters in mind. What a tool.
*Poorly means not adhering to a few specific strategies.
Quote from: yosemitemike;868883I ran a short lived 2e game. As initial opponents, I made a group of 5 Dragonbloods who showed up to deal with the newly minted Solar PCs. They were starting characters with very average equipment. None of them had any of the crazy stuff that the Empire can give their people like Warstriders. They were just starting Dragonbloods made to fight as a team and take advantage of the synergy in their charms.
An hour later, I had to roll it all back and start the campaign over. 4 of the 5 Solars were dead and the last was running for his life. The only thing that saved him was that he was a Night caste built to be hard to find. The Solars were isolated, ganged up on and murdered one after the other.
Quote from: Anglachel;868891You are all doing it wrong.... :D
Count me in as someone who has never had a problem with overpowered Solars...as it just never happened that way at our table. But then again, none of us are total rules-wizards...so i guess we were also doing it wrong.
The other possibility is that a lot of rpg.net Exalted gamers are interpreting the rules wrong (i mean 1e and 2e here).
Be that as it may, the mechanics just were never able to portray what was promised in the fluff. And it very much looks like 3e will also not provide on that promise. Now i know, the easiest way to "defeat" that complaint is to just say "Exalted was neve rmeant for XY bla bla" aka "You are doing it wrong". And no, i am not buying it.
I've heard similar reports from so many people. Frankly, the whole overpowered unstoppable Solars things has mainly been a "thing" on rpg.net. Some on the OPP forums but TBP was always the big center of it. And frankly most of it sounded like white rooming with a good degree of, well, butt hurt involved.
There probably are a couple of busted Solar builds but or some combination of things that adds up to way more than the sum of its parts. But that was true of all the splats (there was a combat Lunar in an arena game that had something like 30 attacks per round with the right combination of charms and form). It was hardly solely the Solar Exalted that were "broken".
Quote from: Michael Gray;868926From what we noticed: One on one a mortal is fucking toast and battlegroups are not quite as deadly as they are made out to be. They mostly seem useful in an Exalt+Battlegroup vs. other Exalts fight to keep the enemy Exalt from building too much initiative. This can also backfire as the enemy Exalt can use them to gain scads of initiative and turn it on the controlling Exalt. My players also had no problem being beacons of light that could be seen for miles around in order to deal with large battlegroups.
Exalt v Exalt combat: The quick antagonists presented are all usually experienced Exalts. Especially as far as DBs are concerned. Even when they aren't I think a combat specced DB vs. a combat specced Solar is going to lose. But not as badly as fluff would lead you to believe.
The two combats I ran were both Abyssal v Solar and bad matchups for the Solar. The first was Abyssal Melee vs. Solar Crane Style MA. The Crane Style Solar lost initiative and so lost most of their cool Crane counterattack shenanigans. He got hurt real bad. The second was Abyssal Stealth and Archery vs. Solar Melee. I played the archer intelligently and the Melee guy got wounded, but the Archer unassed the AO at the earliest opportunity so as not to get sliced up.
I still like the game, and am running a new campaign since one of the players in my previous one decided fantasy anything was poop. We'll see if any major problems end up cropping up in time, I suppose. I like the power level just fine so far.
Thank you for summation. The combat system sounds much more functional in this edition at least though its not my cuppa.
Quote from: Nexus;873937Recently, after several condescending "I'm gonna say what I want!" posts compared to one mildly annoyed one and after attention was called to the peculiar nature of the earlier threadban. So not proof of impartiality, IMO. Maybe more evidence that the mods care more about making their jobs easier and appearances than enforcing even their own vague and arbitrary rules. And that people with the right opinions can push the boundaries further than people guilty of wrong thinking.
I'm not going to speculate on their motives, but since we noted in this thread the earlier threadban, it was only fair to mention this one as well:).
Quote from: AsenRG;873948I'm not going to speculate on their motives, but since we noted in this thread the earlier threadban, it was only fair to mention this one as well:).
Yep and I wanted to give relevant details. Readers can make up their own minds.
I've just hit the point where Exalted 3E is functional but not what I wanted. I feel it's a tad bit overbloated. Much in the late 2E D&D fashion. Add to that a botched PR job with the Kickstarter and well, ya. The drama is what finally cinched it for me. So, I'll get my book, pick up the PDFs of new material and give it a preview before spending any more on hardback books.
Quote from: Nexus;873947It was hardly solely the Solar Exalted that were "broken".
They have nothing on the Sidereals. The stuff Sidereals got was absurdly wonky, crazy and broken. I spent half of my time reading the books thinking, "What? They can do what? What the fuck?"
Quote from: Nexus;873947It was hardly solely the Solar Exalted that were "broken".
Quote from: yosemitemike;874027They have nothing on the Sidereals. The stuff Sidereals got was absurdly wonky, crazy and broken. I spent half of my time reading the books thinking, "What? They can do what? What the fuck?"
Neither of these has anything on my homebrewed Water Children, believe me:D! I've actually mentioned them to the Exalted team, since they existed already in my 2e games.
My players are still trying to understand how many castes they have;).
Someone's gonna get Mod Hammered.*
But to quote a certain Quorian engineer "Totally worth it."
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?773269-Exalted-What-turned-you-off&p=19734817#post19734817
*or it'll be the needed excuse to close the thread all together for being "hostile" and "toxic".
Edit: There's been virtual lynch mobs lead over out of context sentence fragments on social media years ago and games tossed on the bonfire for 10+ year old covers and artwork on that board but suddenly a post for just over 5 yrs ago on topic is off limits and dredging up the ancient past?
Quote from: Nexus;874389Someone's gonna get Mod Hammered.*
But to quote a certain Quorian engineer "Totally worth it."
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?773269-Exalted-What-turned-you-off&p=19734817#post19734817
*or it'll be the needed excuse to close the thread all together for being "hostile" and "toxic".
Edit: There's been virtual lynch mobs lead over out of context sentence fragments on social media years ago and games tossed on the bonfire for 10+ year old covers and artwork on that board but suddenly a post for just over 5 yrs ago on topic is off limits and dredging up the ancient past?
He's done.
Lesson here to remember kiddos. It's only wrong when you do. Not them.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;874397He's done.
Lesson here to remember kiddos. It's only wrong when you do. Not them.
Officially, apparently.
Quote from: Iozz-Sothoth;19737306This is correct. If posters in this thread continue to use posts made several years ago as a means of going after current posters, then there will be bannings and thread closures galore.
Interesting that your past can't be held against you... except for little things like determining if you're "Bad fit" for the forums.
Though in fairness, Catulle hasn't received any public mod action yet.
True enough.
Now then, let's talk about combat in Exalted. I remember a quote from a dev saying that a group of mortals should be a threat even to a Solar. Having been involved in a pbp, and having completely wreck a god blooded and a magnitude1 group of mortals in 3 rounds.
Nope!
And I was holding back, being stingy with essence spending to not reveal my nature. Not even remotely a fair fight.
Quote from: Nexus;874570Though in fairness, Catulle hasn't received no public mod action yet.
Has he ever posted here? Is he worth recruiting? :D
Judging from that post, I like the cut of his jib so far.
Quote from: Nexus;874389http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?773269-Exalted-What-turned-you-off&p=19734817#post19734817
:rotfl:
OMG we need this person here.
Quote from: The Butcher;874593:rotfl:
OMG we need this person here.
I think the RPG.net staff might agree with you sooner rather than later;).
If you want to play Exalted, just use Kevin Crawford's Godbound..
I downloaded the beta and started running it...It wouldn't be to hard to convert to Exalted setting and seriously? It's awesome..
Godbound makes the Exalted writers look like rank amateurs. For the GM there are so many tools to actually make running a game about Demigods as easy as possible.
It astounds me how useful these tools are. Creation of Factions and organizations for your PC's to oppose or assist is easy. Rules for making permanent changes to the world, easy to follow and use..
It's everything Exalted SHOULD have been. It's a game about having Godlike power and actually being able to make changes to the world.
I can't wait to get the full version.
Quote from: Orphan81;874924If you want to play Exalted, just use Kevin Crawford's Godbound..
I downloaded the beta and started running it...It wouldn't be to hard to convert to Exalted setting and seriously? It's awesome..
Godbound makes the Exalted writers look like rank amateurs. For the GM there are so many tools to actually make running a game about Demigods as easy as possible.
It astounds me how useful these tools are. Creation of Factions and organizations for your PC's to oppose or assist is easy. Rules for making permanent changes to the world, easy to follow and use..
It's everything Exalted SHOULD have been. It's a game about having Godlike power and actually being able to make changes to the world.
I can't wait to get the full version.
Does it use its own system or an established one?
Quote from: Nexus;874925Does it use its own system or an established one?
It uses its own, albeit one with plenty of OSR influences. It has the traditional six attributes, for example, as well as AC. It's actually a modified version of the system that Scarlet Heroes uses. There are three saving throw scores, a d20 is used for most rolls (just about everything apart from damage), and rather than a big skill list characters have Facts, which are somewhat like aspects in Fate. If one of a character's Facts could help with a roll, it grants a +4 bonus.
Effort (kinda like Essence but much, much easier to track and use) powers many abilities, but some others simply work without expending Effort. But perhaps my favorite part of the system is the Fray Die. Godbound get to roll the Fray Die each round to dispatch foes with equal or fewer hit dice than they have character levels. It allows a single character to take out multiple opponents with a single roll before ever even taking an action, and it both speeds up combat and allows for much more epic battles that won't bog down.
Quote from: Brand55;874929It uses its own, albeit one with plenty of OSR influences. It has the traditional six attributes, for example, as well as AC. It's actually a modified version of the system that Scarlet Heroes uses. There are three saving throw scores, a d20 is used for most rolls (just about everything apart from damage), and rather than a big skill list characters have Facts, which are somewhat like aspects in Fate. If one of a character's Facts could help with a roll, it grants a +4 bonus.
Effort (kinda like Essence but much, much easier to track and use) powers many abilities, but some others simply work without expending Effort. But perhaps my favorite part of the system is the Fray Die. Godbound get to roll the Fray Die each round to dispatch foes with equal or fewer hit dice than they have character levels. It allows a single character to take out multiple opponents with a single roll before ever even taking an action, and it both speeds up combat and allows for much more epic battles that won't bog down.
It uses levels? How about classes?
Quote from: Nexus;874930It uses levels? How about classes?
Yes to levels, no to classes (although the final product is supposed to offer both Godbound and mortal play, so in that sense it might be said to have classes).
Unlike normal D&D and its many offspring, gaining a level in Godbound requires a character to both gain experience through accomplishing their goals and spend Dominion points. Dominion is gained from doing particularly mighty deeds or the worship of mortals, and it's then spent to create permanent changes in the world (or fashion a personal paradise out of Uncreated Night, but I'm still hazy on that part of it yet). So a Godbound character can't go up in level just by punching some enemies in the face; he's gotta actually go out and do something significant to see an elevation in power.
I highly advise downloading the free beta from Kevin's Google+ site, it's completely worth it.
Powers are derived from "Words of creation" such as "Fire", "Sea", "Command", "Passion", "Endurance", "Might"
just to name a few. A Starting character gets 3 words to choose from as sort of their godish "portfolio"...
Words all have powers associated with them called "Gifts" which come in lesser and greater... Gifts are like charms, but much more powerful. The words themselves have always on constant power.. Taking the Might Word raises your Strength to 18 automatically, and gives you the ability to break or lift anything humanely possible.
Endurance raises your Con to 16 (or 18 if it's already 16) and removes your need to eat, drink, sleep, or breathe.
Some gifts have constant effects, and then better ones when you commit "Effort" to them.
Everytime you level up, you gain more Hitpoints, a few more points for Gifts or new words...your attack bonus gets better and your 3 saving throws get better.
Godbound do "Hit Dice" of damage when they attack, not hit points... Any left over Damage flows over to the next opponents..
The example given is a Godbound inflicting 4 hit dice of damage on a 1 hit dice guard, if there were 4 guards, the 3 other hit dice flow over and kill the other 3..
"Worthy opponents" those with more Hit dice than levels of the Godbound get saving throws against some of the more debilitating powers or attacks.
It's worth checking out, and as I said, it has the best tools I've seen for coming up with plots which god like characters can get involved with, as well as factions, organizations and enemies to influence, fight, or control.
At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I will follow the previous posters and reiterate that Godbound is simply Exalted made right.
I started using the original nucleus of the system with my Exemplars and Eidolons campaign (E&E is a free booklet provided by Crawford to serve as an example for aspiring publishers of how to produce an OSR-looking product; you can still find it at DriveThruRPG). The group has since fallen apart but it was hands down one of the best GM experiences I've had... and it started before Godbound was even born. The subsequent iterations of the system just made everything better.
It's telling that a free booklet from Crawford, intended to be just a layout example, actually manages to do Exalted better than the official system. It's embarassing for the teams which developed the previous two editions, and while I've not read the pdf of the third one, from what I've read I'm 100% sure it applies even more sharply to the current ones.
Yeah when I make a comparison of Exalted to Godbound people say it is unfair. Well yes it is unfair. Kevin is only one man. You shouldn't expect one man to out do a entire team that has the full backing of a company. A self publisher who lacks 600K+ in funding should produce a lesser book than a full dedicated team that has 600K+ funding. Yet the opposite had happen.
Quote from: Stephen Lea Sheppard;19747670Exalted, or so it has always seemed to me, has always had a solid percentage of content that's in there because fuck you. Even back in 1e, one got the feeling that a big motivator for writing it was that your Tolkien-derivative industry-dominating D&D is bad and you should feel bad.
It honestly, genuinely would not feel like Exalted to me if it weren't being sort of aggressively confrontational and defiant in a way that feels at least a tiny smidge insulting. I know whenever I include that tone in material I produce, I do it more as an affectation necessary to keep the game true to itself than out of any desire to insult the audience.
Okay, wow. Just...wow.
Are you still surprised by the attitude of those people?
It just proves that the douchebag-ery is and was there in the Devs since 1st Edition.
Look at the thread you quoted that from and take Holden's as ever super short answers...and he wonders why people read into it what they do...it's experience with your shit, idiot.
And if you, for once, seem to mean your post with no malice and/or condescension, well big surprise, no one gets it...you are the boy that has cried "Wolf!" too many times...
It is as if they don't want to sell the book. Man if I was Rick Thomas I would fire these assholes. They are hurting my business. Hell if I was Paradox I would bring Exalted in house for this shit. Do these devs even want to have a future in the RPG industry at all?
Honestly, Rich T. is as much a douchebag as the rest of them. So if that team gets fired, fire him alongside them (but then i think he is the big boss of OPP, isn't he?! So i guess we are stuck with him).
And yes, if i were Paradox, i'd pull the Exalted licence as well. Or, if not pull it outright, make it possible for other companies to show what they can do with it. That'd be an interesting experiment. For precedence look at what Fasa is doing with Earthdawn.
Quote from: Stephen Lea SheppardExalted, or so it has always seemed to me, has always had a solid percentage of content that's in there because fuck you. Even back in 1e, one got the feeling that a big motivator for writing it was that your Tolkien-derivative industry-dominating D&D is bad and you should feel bad.
It honestly, genuinely would not feel like Exalted to me if it weren't being sort of aggressively confrontational and defiant in a way that feels at least a tiny smidge insulting. I know whenever I include that tone in material I produce, I do it more as an affectation necessary to keep the game true to itself than out of any desire to insult the audience.
Quote from: Nexus;875133Okay, wow. Just...wow.
If nothing else, Stephenls is self-aware, in a way that a lot of the Pale Puppies are not.
It's just a question of whether that affected snobbery is the selling point that it used to be.
I mean, I'm a big fan of
Seinfeld, but I don't think it would work now, and I know several people who loathed that show even when it was on.
JG
Quote from: Luca;874954At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I will follow the previous posters and reiterate that Godbound is simply Exalted made right.
I started using the original nucleus of the system with my Exemplars and Eidolons campaign (E&E is a free booklet provided by Crawford to serve as an example for aspiring publishers of how to produce an OSR-looking product; you can still find it at DriveThruRPG). The group has since fallen apart but it was hands down one of the best GM experiences I've had... and it started before Godbound was even born. The subsequent iterations of the system just made everything better.
It's telling that a free booklet from Crawford, intended to be just a layout example, actually manages to do Exalted better than the official system. It's embarassing for the teams which developed the previous two editions, and while I've not read the pdf of the third one, from what I've read I'm 100% sure it applies even more sharply to the current ones.
Wow - I'll have to give godbound a look then. i'm curious to see if it lives up to the hype or not. :P:D
Quote from: Anglachel;875147Are you still surprised by the attitude of those people?
It just proves that the douchebag-ery is and was there in the Devs since 1st Edition.
Look at the thread you quoted that from and take Holden's as ever super short answers...and he wonders why people read into it what they do...it's experience with your shit, idiot.
And if you, for once, seem to mean your post with no malice and/or condescension, well big surprise, no one gets it...you are the boy that has cried "Wolf!" too many times...
Not surprised, more baffled I guess. By the ongoing attitude and the degree of charity and goodwill that's still extended to them.
For all the terribad rules of 3e, I do like the way it bundled motivations and virtues into intimacies. I should burrow that when running Qwixalted.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;875929For all the terribad rules of 3e, I do like the way it bundled motivations and virtues into intimacies. I should burrow that when running Qwixalted.
Yeah, the clarification and expansion of the social influence rules are a bright spot. The Sorcerous Working rules are interesting way of codifying "A wizard did it" style effects so players can attempt them too.
Quote from: James Gillen;875448If nothing else, Stephenls is self-aware, in a way that a lot of the Pale Puppies are not.
It's just a question of whether that affected snobbery is the selling point that it used to be.
I mean, I'm a big fan of Seinfeld, but I don't think it would work now, and I know several people who loathed that show even when it was on.
JG
I would be careful attributing Stephen's take on 1e's development with what 1e's development was actually like. Stephen came on in 2e's development, under John Chambers. He developed a couple of the books I worked on, and he did it
very well. But I wrote for 1e, and I never saw or felt any kind of "fuck you" toward Tolkien-esque fantasy.
Geoff Grabowski was very specific about
how he wanted to evoke the feel of the setting -- I remember using the phrase "wizard" in text, and in my redlines he said we should rely on phrases like "savant" to do the heavy lifting, but he was also adamant you were never going to see the word "katana" in Exalted, too, and I didn't chalk that up to a hatred of Japanese fantasy. But I went to two SimCons in a row with a bunch of the writers, and there was no secret cabal of Tolkien haters. In fact, all the folks I wrote with were old school gamers who would gladly talk to you about D&D or RIFTS or whatever.
In practice, after hanging out with a lot of gaming professionals, I have found that a lot of what fans
think is going on inside freelancer or developers' heads exists solely in the heads of the fans.
The game had some good ideas. Sorcery is improved, martial arts is used by everyone with exalted unlocking more features, and they got rid of the dreaded tick system.
That still doesn't fix all the horrible ideas that was left alone, or worst added in. Most important it doesn't redeem the shit attitude of the dev team nor fix how they treated their customers. I honestly the refunds convince Paradox to resolve these issues.
But it's so much more fun to believe in conspiracies!
Probably doesn't help with all the drama from the TBP... magnified by the occasional spillover here.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;875980I would be careful attributing Stephen's take on 1e's development with what 1e's development was actually like. Stephen came on in 2e's development, under John Chambers. He developed a couple of the books I worked on, and he did it very well. But I wrote for 1e, and I never saw or felt any kind of "fuck you" toward Tolkien-esque fantasy.
It doesn't really matter. If he thinks there was a "Your D&D is bad and you should feel bad" vibe in the game and includes that in his own material, it's there now even if there wasn't before. Even if no one ever said anything like that or even thought it, the usual "death of the author" bullshit can be invoked to justify why it was "really" there anyway.
The "D and D sucks" 'tude was far more prevalent in Exalted discussions and among the fanbase and some of the writers. In fairness, there didn't seem to be much of it in the official material or it was very subtle (aside from the asinine "Graduate your game" marketing). But yeah, there's does seem to be a degree of contempt for D and D in a significant portion of the fandom and some of its staff. Some of that might be nerd rage, hatin' on the top dog and trashing talking the competition, but its there. But barely a thread seems to go by without at least one potshot being taken.
Hell, I've see Exalted called "D and D for people that think they're too good for D and D" quite a bit,.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;875929For all the terribad rules of 3e, I do like the way it bundled motivations and virtues into intimacies. I should burrow that when running Qwixalted.
I think that most of this thread can be summed up as "just run Qwixalted."
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;876120I think that most of this thread can be summed up as "just run Qwixalted."
JG
Or run Godbound when it gets out.
Quote from: Snowman0147;876124Or run Godbound when it gets out.
You know...I kinda want Godbound to be it's own thing. But higher power domain shifting material is all good in my book.
Hey guys setting up a way to convert exalted to godbound. I did the cosmos (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2016/02/exalted-to-godbound-creation-edition.html?m=1) first. Tell me what you guys think about it please.
Went to work on the exalted types. Seriously the hardest part was dealing with the Sidereals. Seriously how are they even playable in storyteller White Wolf?
Solars (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2016/02/exalted-to-godbound-solars-edition.html)
Lunars (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2016/02/exalted-to-godbound-lunar-edition.html)
Sidereals (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2016/02/exalted-to-godbound-sidereal-edition.html)
They're not. As I understand it, they're the epitome of Handwavium turned up to 11.
Wow that is depressing as hell. How is the godbound conversion?
Sidereals in 1e were playable, in fact they had one of the best Charmsets, fluff and mechanical-wise. Unfortunately, it was too good, so it lead to unbalance with the other splats (but as long as you were playing a Sidereal-only game, you were fine).
In 2e they screw them real good. Their charmset was an unplayable mess. The guy in charge just made a lazy copypaste from 1e without taking into consideration how much the rules changed from 1e to 2e.
We don't know what they are going to look in 3e yet, but probably the book will be out in time for my great grandchildren to read the bazillon charms in it.
Thank the gods we have Godbound now (the pay version will even feature how to make thematic Godbounds, and the example ones are similar to Exalted splats).
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;876360You know...I kinda want Godbound to be it's own thing. But higher power domain shifting material is all good in my book.
I agree. I like the Godbound setting as it is (the only thing I don't like, the Bright Republic, can be easily removed).
Thing is you can put whatever you want in Godbound as it consist more than one realm. It is like having infinity creations. In the conversion I made the Exalted setting its own realm that is largely detached from the rest of the realms.
Quote from: Snowman0147;881874Thing is you can put whatever you want in Godbound as it consist more than one realm. It is like having infinity creations. In the conversion I made the Exalted setting its own realm that is largely detached from the rest of the realms.
What I meant to say is that I like the Godbound default realm to run games. I think that's what Mostlyjose tried to say as well.
Well of course. The only reason I did the conversion is to provide something for people other than a massive book filled with too many charms to count.
Still the main setting of Godbound leave it to godbound.
Quote from: Snowman0147;881950Well of course. The only reason I did the conversion is to provide something for people other than a massive book filled with too many charms to count.
Still the main setting of Godbound leave it to godbound.
Thanks for taking up the task.
Yeah thankfully making the exalted types had been easy. Already figured out the fey of the border marches and completed the main five. Yeah got the dragon bloods and abyssals done. I just need to tweak them before I send in the links.
Mainly dragon bloods get two artifacts per fact used in character creation. Still that is limited by the fact that dragon blooded are basiclly heroic mortals. They count as godbound when handling artifacts, but compared to the other exalted types the terrestrials are fairly weak.
Mean while the loyalist abyssals get freebies from their deathlord masters. Rebels won't get those freebies. Now IF you want to mix Godbound in with Exalted the exiled lord of hell, the angel Sammael, is interested in the abyssals. Think new exalted type which is good for the good guys, but bad for the bad guys. I call this new type Purified.
It's interesting to see that discussion of Exalted 3E has almost completely dried up over on rpg.net, and this thread has mutated into a Godbound thread.
Quote from: Baulderstone;882006It's interesting to see that discussion of Exalted 3E has almost completely dried up over on rpg.net, and this thread has mutated into a Godbound thread.
Considering they were and still are banning people at the big purple I am not surprise it is dying.
As for this thread? Guilty as charge. Still I like to believe it is about exalted even if I am coverting the setting to Godbound rules set.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;881831I agree. I like the Godbound setting as it is (the only thing I don't like, the Bright Republic, can be easily removed).
My only issue with the Godbound setting is that the regions are presented in a relatively extreme way, and there seems little room between them to add new regions of your own devising. This is exaggerated as its also a lot smaller than Creation.
I struggled to place my two scenarios in places where the flavour of the region didn't overbear the location's own flavour.
Of course, this can be accommodated for by dialling down the extreme nature of the regions and making the borders less clear.
Quote from: Skywalker;882046My only issue with the Godbound setting is that the regions are presented in a relatively extreme way, and there seems little room between them to add new regions of your own devising. This is exaggerated as its also a lot smaller than Creation.
I struggled to place my two scenarios in places where the flavour of the region didn't overbear the location's own flavour.
Of course, this can be accommodated for by dialling down the extreme nature of the regions and making the borders less clear.
I ended up creating my own Realm in the end. I love the sample realm, but Kevin's stuff is always very high on personal modification, his books are always encouraging GM's to do their own thing..
With my game on Roll20 now, I decided to take all my favorite fantasy settings, twist and modify them, and then smash them together to make my own realm..
Right now my players are dealing with the Dragon Blooded Empire invading Skyrim... Of I heavily personalized them to make it so it's not REALLY the Realm invading Skyrim... but the "Shining Empire" and "Vhorn" show their original DNA quite respectively..
I encourage you make your own realm.. given the scale of Godbound, the tiny details are no sweat so it's easier to paint in broad brushstrokes.
Quote from: Orphan81;882049I encourage you make your own realm.. given the scale of Godbound, the tiny details are no sweat so it's easier to paint in broad brushstrokes.
I most likely will :)
Quote from: Orphan81;882049Right now my players are dealing with the Dragon Blooded Empire invading Skyrim... Of I heavily personalized them to make it so it's not REALLY the Realm invading Skyrim... but the "Shining Empire" and "Vhorn" show their original DNA quite respectively..
I encourage you make your own realm.. given the scale of Godbound, the tiny details are no sweat so it's easier to paint in broad brushstrokes.
Damn. Wish I was in your game! I'm going to be running a game Weds nights with a crew of 4. I'm setting it in the Bleak Reach to the far north and the game is going to be a touch Conan spiced with Inhumanoids and He-man vs the Snakelords. So we'll see.
Quote from: Baulderstone;882006It's interesting to see that discussion of Exalted 3E has almost completely dried up over on rpg.net, and this thread has mutated into a Godbound thread.
I had noticed how it dried up with a little amazement. But I guess there's nothing more to say from the backers that have it (especially being "too critical" seems to draw the Ban hammer) And the actual release of the game is "TBA".
Quote from: Nexus;882084I had noticed how it dried up with a little amazement. But I guess there's nothing more to say from the backers that have it (especially being "too critical" seems to draw the Ban hammer) And the actual release of the game is "TBA".
There is nothing much more to say now really. Just play games, and ask questions about upcoming product if you care anymore.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;882081Damn. Wish I was in your game! I'm going to be running a game Weds nights with a crew of 4. I'm setting it in the Bleak Reach to the far north and the game is going to be a touch Conan spiced with Inhumanoids and He-man vs the Snakelords. So we'll see.
I run my games on Wednesdays and... my bestfriend would probably absolutely love playing in your game at the mention of Inhumanoids and He-man..
But I won't let him! He's in my game!
Quote from: Snowman0147;881950Well of course. The only reason I did the conversion is to provide something for people other than a massive book filled with too many charms to count.
It will be interesting to compare the Exalted-like themed splats in the final Godbound version to see the difference with your take.
Quote from: Baulderstone;882006It's interesting to see that discussion of Exalted 3E has almost completely dried up over on rpg.net, and this thread has mutated into a Godbound thread.
To be fair, it doesn't surprise me. Everyone I know who used to play Exalted in my country hates 3ed. In a way we all wanted the same thing: a simple system without a bazillon Charms.
So far I've been recommending Godbound to them.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;882242To be fair, it doesn't surprise me. Everyone I know who used to play Exalted in my country hates 3ed. In a way we all wanted the same thing: a simple system without a bazillon Charms.
So far I've been recommending Godbound to them.
See, I hear this constantly: the desire for a simpler system or least to avoid further complication from almost everyone I know the plays Exalted and in online discussions in most places up too the development of 3rd and currently.
But then all Holden and Morke's claim that they've talked to this silent majority of Exalted (off line of course) that would strenuously object to an Exalted that wasn't composed of literally hundreds of little rules packets bolted onto a dense rule framework. That anything else "isn't Exalted".
Now I have seen this opinion expressed. Mostly on rpg.net but not solely there but it hasn't been this overwhelming outcry that's so dominant that expecting anything else was idiotically naive as some folks like to claim.
Hell, for that matter I've never run into much Exalted talk off line. I assume it exists but it the game has always seemed to be mostly an internet phenomena including the extremely successful KS.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;882242To be fair, it doesn't surprise me. Everyone I know who used to play Exalted in my country hates 3ed. In a way we all wanted the same thing: a simple system without a bazillon Charms.
See that is why I am doing it. We were all promised a simpler and streamlined system from the beginning. Instead we got a mess that isn't even out yet.
Quote from: Nexus;882084And the actual release of the game is "TBA".
Discussion along this line:
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?777125-I-m-worried-about-the-future-of-Exalted
Quote from: Nexus;882253But then all Holden and Morke's claim that they've talked to this silent majority of Exalted (off line of course) that would strenuously object to an Exalted that wasn't composed of literally hundreds of little rules packets bolted onto a dense rule framework. That anything else "isn't Exalted".
These are the guys who guarded their playtest drafts like national secrets because they were afraid that if anyone saw them them they might express opinions and provide feedback about them. It's safe to say they are not well qualified to speak for the fanbase.
Quote from: Baulderstone;882277These are the guys who guarded their playtest drafts like national secrets because they were afraid that if anyone saw them them they might express opinions and provided feedback about them. It's safe to say they are not well qualified to speak for the fanbase.
Man, I would love to have a sit down with Grabowski about all this.
Got the last two done.
Dragon Bloods (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2016/02/exalted-to-godbound-terrestrial-edition.html)
Abyssals (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2016/02/exalted-to-godbound-abyssal-edition.html)
Going to research the alchemicals, infernos, dragons, and mortal options.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;882242To be fair, it doesn't surprise me. Everyone I know who used to play Exalted in my country hates 3ed. In a way we all wanted the same thing: a simple system without a bazillon Charms.
We have a whole load of fanatical Exalted fans here, and all are swearing off Ex3 too. I also hope to win them over to Godbound.
I think that there is a very large middle ground in the Exalted fanbase of those who like Charms as discrete rules packets (or rules exceptions), but want them in a manageable number and on top of a simple core system. Exalted 1e was the closest to this and one reason why its ruleset initially appealed. Instead of many incremental benefit charms like dice adders, the charms had complete and large effects that oozed flavour.
A lot of rules light alternatives and those that argue for them make the mistake of thinking a manageable number of Charms means no Charms, and seek to replace the exception based nature of the ruleset entirely with something more free form like FATE. The problem is that this doesn't appeal to a good chunk of the Exalted fanbase.
The reason I think Godbound is successful at capturing that large middle ground is that it still has a bunch of rules based exceptions, but they are in manageable number and built on a simple ruleset with a easy to use resource mechanism (Effort).
And Godbound isn't alone in achieving this better balance either. I have recently ben reading AMP Year One, which uses Exalted Charm presentation for modern day superpowers over a simple rule system and its pretty amazing.
Quote from: Skywalker;882315The reason I think Godbound is successful at capturing that large middle ground is that it still has a bunch of rules based exceptions, but they are in manageable number and built on a simple ruleset with a easy to use resource mechanism (Effort).
Totally agree. Godbound is a good balance point between a bazillon Charms and free-form magic. Plus the core engine is quite simple.
Quote from: Skywalker;882315And Godbound isn't alone in achieving this better balance either. I have recently ben reading AMP Year One, which uses Exalted Charm presentation for modern day superpowers over a simple rule system and its pretty amazing.
I haven't look at that one (Superheroes aren't my thing), but I'll take a look at it when I can.
Is there a quickstart?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;882281Man, I would love to have a sit down with Grabowski about all this.
What is Grabowski doing these days?
Quote from: Maese Mateo;882345I haven't look at that one (Superheroes aren't my thing), but I'll take a look at it when I can.
Is there a quickstart?
Better yet. Whilst the KS for AMP Year Three is on, AMP Year One (the core rulebook) is up on DTRPG for PWYW. Be warned, this may lead you to buying the other books :)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/132784/AMP-Year-One
Quote from: Nexus;882349What is Grabowski doing these days?
Getting his CPA certification, last I heard.
Quote from: Nexus;882349What is Grabowski doing these days?
He just released Dreams of Ruin, a high level OSR setting: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/152691/The-Dreams-of-Ruin.
The potential of matching Godbound, an OSR system good for emulating Exalted, and Dreams of Ruin, a high level OSR setting by Exalted's developer, has not gone unnoticed :)
Quote from: Skywalker;882353Better yet. Whilst the KS for AMP Year Three is on, AMP Year One (the core rulebook) is up on DTRPG for PWYW. Be warned, this may lead you to buying the other books :)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/132784/AMP-Year-One
Awesome! Thanks!
Quote from: Maese Mateo;882364Awesome! Thanks!
It's really good. Sort of a Anericanised Double Cross. Less superheroes and more Rising Stars, Misfits, XMen, or Highlander.
Rpg.net thread: Exalted: Did it want to be rules lite or am I missing the point?
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?777282-Exalted-Did-it-want-to-be-a-rules-lite-game-Or-am-I-missing-the-point
Quote from: Nexus;882712Rpg.net thread: Exalted: Did it want to be rules lite or am I missing the point?
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?777282-Exalted-Did-it-want-to-be-a-rules-lite-game-Or-am-I-missing-the-point
I think he's missing the point.
Exalted was never suppose to be a rules lite game, it's why Fate Versions, and Quicxalted and Cortex+ versions never appealed to me..
The Problem was always in hitting that sweet spot. Exalted was suppose to have enough rules exception based powers to make PC's feel cool and unique...but not so many the ST would end up overwhelmed trying to memorize them all...
(This reminds me of when I use to run Mage: The Awakening at my local Camarilla LARP...and players expected me to have every fucking rote from every fucking supplement memorized.....but I digress)
1e was as close as we got honestly.... 2e just piled on more complication as if that was the problem Exalted had. 3e went even worse, but that's what you get when people who don't actually play Roleplaying games design them.
It's why Godbound appealed to me so much. I could use it possibly being a little more crunchy, maybe a skill system, but that's just me splitting hairs really..
What scratches the itch for me...is the Words of Creation and Gifts... they provide those awesome rules exceptions that make players feel their characters are unique... at the same time they're not so complex and in such multitude as to make the GM feel overwhelmed keeping track of it all.
Orphan81 is bang on IMO
Not in my book, he isn't. Which probably helps explain why Exalted discussions are as heated as they are, we're literally talking about games that would be different if they were built to specifications.
What attracted me to GodBound is the mechanics for making changes in the world, coupled with a system that actually works better for epic games than for mundane ones.
Quote from: Nexus;882712Rpg.net thread: Exalted: Did it want to be rules lite or am I missing the point?
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?777282-Exalted-Did-it-want-to-be-a-rules-lite-game-Or-am-I-missing-the-point
Oh, Lord, no. Exalted's always been as crunchy as GURPS, in its own manner.
Quote from: AsenRG;882731Not in my book, he isn't.
All cool. There are indisputably multiple groups in the Exalted fanbase :)
The two more extreme groups, being those that love Exalted 3e's rules crunchiness and those that want a rules lite Exalted, tend to be the most vocal online as they are often in opposition.
The preference Orphan81 expresses, being a rules lite core with a high, yet manageable, number of awesome rules exception powers, is what I expect is the silent majority. It certainly is the case from my anecdotal experiences of the Exalted fanbase where I live.
Quote from: Orphan81;8827181e was as close as we got honestly.... 2e just piled on more complication as if that was the problem Exalted had. 3e went even worse, but that's what you get when people who don't actually play Roleplaying games design them.
Wait, what? There are people involved in the design of Ex3 who don't even play RPGs?
I'm not saying this would surprise me in the least, but it's public knowledge?
Quote from: Skywalker;882825All cool. There are indisputably multiple groups in the Exalted fanbase :)
The two more extreme groups, being those that love Exalted 3e's rules crunchiness and those that want a rules lite Exalted, tend to be the most vocal online as they are often in opposition.
The preference Orphan81 expresses, being a rules lite core with a high, yet manageable, number of awesome rules exception powers, is what I expect is the silent majority. It certainly is the case from my anecdotal experiences of the Exalted fanbase where I live.
Yeah, that there are different groups was exactly my point. Personally, I am the voice of the silent minority, although I'd have just as soon settled for a rules-medium Exalted with no exception-based powers, instead:).
What I don't want is an Exalted that's so slow that resolving a quick stunt takes forever. Yes I considered it a mistake in the previous editions.
Luckily, the current edition is at least marginally better on that account, though it might have been better;).
That said, given the previous posts, I fully understand why the current edition is still heavier than I'd make it:D!
Quote from: Kiero;882827Wait, what? There are people involved in the design of Ex3 who don't even play RPGs?
I'm not saying this would surprise me in the least, but it's public knowledge?
May be referring to SLS who avowed something to that effect and who has been involved at least in editing Ex3.
Certainly may be others, too, though.
Quote from: Kiero;882827Wait, what? There are people involved in the design of Ex3 who don't even play RPGs?
I'm not saying this would surprise me in the least, but it's public knowledge?
That explains why it all went to shit. It is like having a chef that does't taste his own food. How good is a rpg designer if they never play rpgs?
What I found amusing is that I was banned from RPG.net for a day (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?765942-Infraction-for-Celestial-Lord-1)-One-Day-Ban) for pointing that out.
Quote from: Celestial;882841What I found amusing is that I was banned from RPG.net for a day (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?765942-Infraction-for-Celestial-Lord-1)-One-Day-Ban) for pointing that out.
First off. I agree with you 100%.
Second off. This is the EXACT shit I am talking about when people ask me why I want to see White Wolf/Onyx Path burn in hell for all eternity. They hire shit freelancers that have zero qualifications to make games and when people question it they get ban. That company is only concern with spreading its political agenda and fucking their fans over.
Thirdly this just more evidence that as to why rpg.net needs to die.
Quote from: Celestial;882841What I found amusing is that I was banned from RPG.net for a day (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?765942-Infraction-for-Celestial-Lord-1)-One-Day-Ban) for pointing that out.
Well, I wasn't expecting that. Weird.
I am not surprised. There is no 'there' there in the big purple. There is vastly more fruitful things to do with your time, like watching paint dry.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?777282-Exalted-Did-it-want-to-be-a-rules-lite-game-Or-am-I-missing-the-point&p=19863910#post19863910
I know I'm probably being paranoid but it still strikes me as weird
how many users seem to pop up to support the Devs or the Exalted status quo with odd low post counts even if they're listed as registered for years like "Joe Smoke" here who seems to post less than once a year on average (or in short bursts followed a long silence) though mostly about Exalted.
Maybe it is an indication of some Silent Majority lurking behind vocal masses on forums or just how popular the game is and strong feelings it evokes. But in any case, it seems odd.
Quote from: Nexus;883008https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?777282-Exalted-Did-it-want-to-be-a-rules-lite-game-Or-am-I-missing-the-point&p=19863910#post19863910
I know I'm probably being paranoid but it still strikes me as weird
how many users seem to pop up to support the Devs or the Exalted status quo with odd low post counts even if they're listed as registered for years like "Joe Smoke" here who seems to post less than once a year on average (or in short bursts followed a long silence) though mostly about Exalted.
Maybe it is an indication of some Silent Majority lurking behind vocal masses on forums or just how popular the game is and strong feelings it evokes. But in any case, it seems odd.
Lol...yeah, after reading that post, the only thing that comes to mind is "Sock-Puppet, YO!". Considering that this is a ban-able offence on there, i guess we should investigate ;)
Also, so many WTF moments lately in Exalted threads...especially posts by Zeea (or however it is spelt) ... i mean who is she kidding.
Quote from: Anglachel;883016Lol...yeah, after reading that post, the only thing that comes to mind is "Sock-Puppet, YO!". Considering that this is a ban-able offence on there, i guess we should investigate ;)
Even the name "Joe Smoke" seems a bit like a troll.
QuoteAlso, so many WTF moments lately in Exalted threads...especially posts by Zeea (or however it is spelt) ... i mean who is she kidding.
What did she do?
It does seem like she really sold her soul in the backdoor meeting or whatever.
Quote from: Nexus;883017What did she do?
It does seem like she really sold her soul in the backdoor meeting or whatever.
Well, she posted something :D
I just have my ... reservations ... about her. She being a mod does not make things better.
Anyway...
Here is one of the newest...contributions...from her.
QuoteThe corebook's writing was fine and fast. Other things surrounding the Kickstarter were a clusterfuck, such as the fiction, the art, the leaks, some of the PR, and that sort of thing. But it's done, and the other products are unlikely to have as many issues because the dev team has had time to learn from those issues. I don't think any of those mistakes will be repeated again for future books, and most of the upcoming books are pretty much done being written.
As for the fracturing of the fanbase, I think that was inevitable and needed to happen. Exalted has been a contentious mess for a very long time, with increasingly angry fans fighting over the identity of the game while the developers didn't take a side. That's a big part of why this discussion has been so heated for years. I'm glad that we're finally having this breakdown, because it means that the fans of the three or so big approaches will likely stop arguing as much.
It also means there's way more openings for Exalted-style games that go in the other directions. People who wanted a non-Storyteller game that's like Exalted can make one without any fear of Exalted shifting away from Storyteller and compete with them. People who wanted the more magitech elements can make and sell those settings without worrying about it being redundant. Exalted hopping off the three-directional fence into one of the sections of the pie chart means that the other two sections are freed up for more designers.
I got into Exalted because I saw the 1e core book in the bookstore and bought it. I loved it. I felt alienated as the game went more toward Exalted 2e's magitech, codifying all the mysteries, weird rules, etc. I'm glad that the game is moving toward more mystery, toward better rules, toward sword and sorcery. Exalted 3e is a return to the old form, but with more oversight and focused direction.
This is also the first edition I've ever enjoyed playing, mechanically. I just don't understand the objections, and imagine I never will. I don't think anyone could write a game that works for me, someone who likes 2e, and someone who likes 1e mechanics at the same time. So they sorta had to choose, and I think they chose well.
There is so much eyeroll worthy stuff in this, i don't know where to begin. But i find the bolded parts the biggest WTF?! moment i had in a while (concerning anything written about Exalted 3e and the discussions surrounding it, i mean).
Where i just had to LOL hard was the part about the Devs not taking sides...yeah right...are you fucking kidding me?! She must be totally blind and tone-deaf or well...just totally delusional.
Or as you put it sold her soul.
Quote from: Anglachel;883030W
There is so much eyeroll worthy stuff in this, i don't know where to begin. But i find the bolded parts the biggest WTF?! moment i had in a while (concerning anything written about Exalted 3e and the discussions surrounding it, i mean).
Where i just had to LOL hard was the part about the Devs not taking sides...yeah right...are you fucking kidding me?! She must be totally blind and tone-deaf or well...just totally delusional.
Yeah, that's just, I really don't know what too say.
Quote from: Celestial;882841What I found amusing is that I was banned from RPG.net for a day (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?765942-Infraction-for-Celestial-Lord-1)-One-Day-Ban) for pointing that out.
TBP really insists on etiquette.
Quote from: Nexus;883008https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?777282-Exalted-Did-it-want-to-be-a-rules-lite-game-Or-am-I-missing-the-point&p=19863910#post19863910
I know I'm probably being paranoid but it still strikes me as weird
how many users seem to pop up to support the Devs or the Exalted status quo with odd low post counts even if they're listed as registered for years like "Joe Smoke" here who seems to post less than once a year on average (or in short bursts followed a long silence) though mostly about Exalted.
Maybe it is an indication of some Silent Majority lurking behind vocal masses on forums or just how popular the game is and strong feelings it evokes. But in any case, it seems odd.
Lurkers aren't actually weird, but the last paragraph sounds like a troll, indeed.
Quote from: Anglachel;883030Well, she posted something :D
I just have my ... reservations ... about her. She being a mod does not make things better.
Anyway...
Here is one of the newest...contributions...from her.
There is so much eyeroll worthy stuff in this, i don't know where to begin. But i find the bolded parts the biggest WTF?! moment i had in a while (concerning anything written about Exalted 3e and the discussions surrounding it, i mean).
Where i just had to LOL hard was the part about the Devs not taking sides...yeah right...are you fucking kidding me?! She must be totally blind and tone-deaf or well...just totally delusional.
To be honest, I don't know what surprised you in the statement that she doesn't understand the critiques, the game seems to be totally up her alley.
Quote from: AsenRG;883074TBP really insists on etiquette.
I hope you're being sarcastic.
Quote from: AsenRG;883074To be honest, I don't know what surprised you in the statement that she doesn't understand the critiques, the game seems to be totally up her alley.
Surprised? No i am not...i said eyeroll worthy and WTF?!-Moments.
Quote from: AsenRG;883074Lurkers aren't actually weird, but the last paragraph sounds like a troll, indeed.
No, Lurkers aren't weird and I'm will aware of what a Lurker is.
But how so many of them seem to pop up or people that are suddenly motivated to create accounts which are then never heard from again) to defend Exalted after sometimes years of silence is little odd. As is the regularity that happens in a very specific situation. The fact that so many of the staff are either working on Exalted or fervent supporters adds to the fishy aspect even more so when some mods have created sock accounts in the past over there and I know a few people personally that have abandoned their accounts their and gotten reports of activity from them, seen abandoned active for no known reason, among other things that hint at some possible shenanigans.
And its certainly not something I'd consider beneath any of the staff there or some of the more obnxious fans,
But your snide condescending manner of disagreement is appreciated as always.
Quote from: Anglachel;883099I hope you're being sarcastic.
I'd say they insist on "etiquette(more like false manners, adhering to the officially sanctioned opinions and shit eating) from some. Remember: All Animals are Equal but some are more Equal than others.
QuoteSurprised? No i am not...i said eyeroll worthy and WTF?!-Moments.
Her overall shift in attitude was surprising. She went from being one of the games most vocal critics to an undying fan after a conversation with Holden than neither will discuss. I forget if this was previous to or after her promotion to Mod status. I think it was before but I can't say that with any certainty. I know she stopped posting her after her promotion.
But the shift in her tone and attitude was so swift and extreme as to be mildly jarring.
Maybe she did have a change of heart or there was some revelation of the secrets of Exalted that changed her mind. Maybe Holden is just really charming one on one. Who knows but you're not privy to what happen (not that we have a right to be) it really seems odd.
Nothing is damning but its enough to make one wonder.
Some of thr things she said in the particular post did seem off. Like how the upcoming books were all but written in light of how many times the developers have plead off on answering questions about the line because the products were still in development or barely in the concept stages.
One of the admins made an interesting comment yesterday (?) in a Godbound thread...
Quote from: Sytthas;882829May be referring to SLS who avowed something to that effect and who has been involved at least in editing Ex3.
Certainly may be others, too, though.
Who's "SLS"?
Quote from: Baron Opal;883260One of the admins made an interesting comment yesterday (?) in a Godbound thread...
What did they say?
Quote from: Snowman0147;883275What did they say?
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?773601-Sine-Nomine-Godbound&p=19864864#post19864864
Godbound does a good job, apparently.
Quote from: Snowman0147;883275What did they say?
probaly this one (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?773601-Sine-Nomine-Godbound&p=19864864#post19864864).
Quote from: JamesCatJust read the beta files. It's so gloriously concise, imaginative, playable, and smoothly put together.
It's also completely killed any interest I had in running Exalted 3E using the Exalted system.
Quote from: Baron Opal;883277https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?773601-Sine-Nomine-Godbound&p=19864864#post19864864
Godbound does a good job, apparently.
:eek:
Holy shit.
Quote from: Kiero;883273Who's "SLS"?
Stephen Lea Shepherd (Any spelling mistakes not intentional)
Quote from: Warboss Squee;883279:eek:
Holy shit.
Not being up to date on all the internal workings of this particular train wreck, is this just some uninvolved mod on Exalted 3's favorite forum or a serious case of:
(http://i.imgur.com/FlcgEyv.jpg) (http://imgur.com/FlcgEyv)
REEPLES!
How endearing, I'll have to check that out.
Quote from: Nexus;883280Stephen Lea Shepherd (Any spelling mistakes not intentional)
OK, so this guy has been posting on a forum for roleplaying games for
years, yet has never played roleplaying games?
Quote from: Kiero;883299OK, so this guy has been posting on a forum for roleplaying games for years, yet has never played roleplaying games?
He loves to talk about things he doesn't know about. As an example, there have been a number of time he will pop into a discussion of
Masks of Nyarlathotep, usually during one of those regular threads about the "The Best Campaign Ever". He will say that he hasn't read it, but he has heard it is a serious railroad. Given that it allows an enormous amount of freedom for the PCs, a lot of people post to correct him.
Time will pass and then a thread on the subject comes up again. SLS will jump in again to mention how he has heard it is a complete railroad.
Quote from: Kiero;883299OK, so this guy has been posting on a forum for roleplaying games for years, yet has never played roleplaying games?
Better still he writes for rpgs
Quote from: Warboss Squee;883279:eek:
Holy shit.
Godbound is a great game. I doubt anyone who has read the draft can say otherwise.
It'as refreshing after so many years of not giving a crap about Exalted due to Ex3 dissapointment to be excited about that sort of game style again.
Btw, I don't think Ex3 is a bad game, but I do feel it's not the game for me or anyone I know. Also, after almost 3 years without a final book and month after month of "the devs are still polishing the damn charms", I feel Onyx Path has laughted at my face the whole time. It has been the worst experience I've ever had on KS, and I won't be supporting any other OP KS again.
Join the line Maese Mateo. Your not the only one who is done with OP. The best thing Paradox Interactive can do is cut off Onyx Path completely. As in take away the licenses and tell Onyx Path good bye.
Snuck into Onyx Path forums and look what I found. (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/841837-exalted-like-game-on-kickstarter-sine-nomine-s-godbound)
Quote from: Skywalker;882353Better yet. Whilst the KS for AMP Year Three is on, AMP Year One (the core rulebook) is up on DTRPG for PWYW. Be warned, this may lead you to buying the other books :)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/132784/AMP-Year-One
It's no danger to me. I'm a backer of AMP:Y1 and AMP:Y2 already;)!
Never got around to actually running them, mind. But when I backed the first one, it looked like I'd have an opening, and that a "humans with powers" game would be in demand among my group.
Turns out, I was only right on account of one of these:).
Quote from: Skywalker;882356He just released Dreams of Ruin, a high level OSR setting: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/152691/The-Dreams-of-Ruin.
The potential of matching Godbound, an OSR system good for emulating Exalted, and Dreams of Ruin, a high level OSR setting by Exalted's developer, has not gone unnoticed :)
Thanks, Skywalker!
(Or should that be "grasshopper":p? Seriously, your screen name really makes me think of this).
Quote from: Anglachel;883099I hope you're being sarcastic.
Well, maybe "etiquette" was the wrong word. But while I could tell anyone to fuck off on this site (though, as Bren noted, it's unlikely he or she would comply), I couldn't really do that on TBP, barring extremely limited circumstances.
So, while the application can be inconsistent (and many posters here have experience with the inconsistencies), they
seem to at least be
trying to be polite. Unless you're from a group they consider "fair game", of course, but that's pretty much normal human behaviour, not exclusive to TBP.
QuoteSurprised? No i am not...i said eyeroll worthy and WTF?!-Moments.
To me, that assumes at least a mild surprise, hence the comment. YMMV.
Quote from: Nexus;883192No, Lurkers aren't weird and I'm will aware of what a Lurker is.
I didn't doubt you're aware of those.
QuoteBut how so many of them seem to pop up or people that are suddenly motivated to create accounts which are then never heard from again) to defend Exalted after sometimes years of silence is little odd. As is the regularity that happens in a very specific situation.
Yes, it sure seems fishy. My point was, let's not jump to conclusions, OK?
It sure is worth investigating, though.
QuoteThe fact that so many of the staff are either working on Exalted or fervent supporters adds to the fishy aspect even more so when some mods have created sock accounts in the past over there and I know a few people personally that have abandoned their accounts their and gotten reports of activity from them, seen abandoned active for no known reason, among other things that hint at some possible shenanigans.
No discussion, that's even more fishy - but I don't know anything about abandoned accounts becoming active again.
QuoteAnd its certainly not something I'd consider beneath any of the staff there or some of the more obnxious fans,
You have an even lower opinion of them than I do.
QuoteBut your snide condescending manner of disagreement is appreciated as always.
Was I snide and condescending? Or was I posting from a phone;)?
Hint, it's the latter. It's not that I'm never snide and/or condescending...I sure use it as a warning (usually, before adding someone to my "Fuck Off List"). But I'm seldom that, and laconic, at the same time.
Quote from: Nexus;883196I'd say they insist on "etiquette(more like false manners, adhering to the officially sanctioned opinions and shit eating) from some. Remember: All Animals are Equal but some are more Equal than others.
That's another way to put that, I guess.
QuoteHer overall shift in attitude was surprising. She went from being one of the games most vocal critics to an undying fan after a conversation with Holden than neither will discuss. I forget if this was previous to or after her promotion to Mod status. I think it was before but I can't say that with any certainty.
She had a shift in attitude? I've missed or forgotten that.
Not that I don't believe you, just find that surprising. But hey, maybe Holden just ran an awesome game for her:D!
Quote from: Baron Opal;883260One of the admins made an interesting comment yesterday (?) in a Godbound thread...
Indeed.
I must add that I'm still retaining my interest in Ex3 using Ex3, but that's because, as mentioned way earlier in the thread, I like the Advantage system.
Then again, in the case of Godbound, I can easily repurpose the HPs to mean exactly the same thing, and maybe I should consider it!
Quote from: Snowman0147;883367Snuck into Onyx Path forums and look what I found. (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/841837-exalted-like-game-on-kickstarter-sine-nomine-s-godbound)
Not surprising. I'd expect someone was thinking "and here's how EX3 might have looked like" while opening the thread:D!
I also posted about Godbound on Myth Weavers, my PbP home these days. Hey, it's got a list of OSR players:D!
Quote from: Snowman0147;883367Snuck into Onyx Path forums and look what I found. (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/841837-exalted-like-game-on-kickstarter-sine-nomine-s-godbound)
(http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i40/2/4/8/frabz-salt-salt-everywhere-898ce5.jpg)
One Macro speaks more than 1000 shitposts
Quote from: AsenRG;883390Yes, it sure seems fishy. My point was, let's not jump to conclusions, OK?
It sure is worth investigating, though.
It's easy enough to get an overview of Joe Smoke's posts. Here is a link (https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Arpg.net+%22joe+smoke%22&oq=site%3Arpg.net+%22joe+smoke%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.21780j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8). I don't see anything particularly nefarious in it though.
What salt? It seems to be more level headed conversation than the rpg.net.
QuoteYes, it sure seems fishy. My point was, let's not jump to conclusions, OK?
I haven't and I didn't. Please quote were I said more than there are things about this that make suspicious?
Quote from: Snowman0147;883414What salt? It seems to be more level headed conversation than the rpg.net.
Just wait and see. I give it two more pages before things starts to getting really "funny" in that threat.
Quote from: Snowman0147;883367Snuck into Onyx Path forums and look what I found. (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/841837-exalted-like-game-on-kickstarter-sine-nomine-s-godbound)
The post that got me the one that says Godbound's setting is darker than Creation. Really? Creation is basically the WoD with a bigger sfx budget where everyone's an asshole and best predicated outcome is that it become the WoD. And its a constant bebate whether PCs can change that or not.
QuoteGodbound Heaven is a shattered ruin, and the main reason to go there is to do some cosmically destructive looting. Exalted Heaven is an impossibly-luxurious city where the big problem is that the world-running bureaucracy isn't efficient.
Isn't efficient, incredibly corrupt. Potato, Potahto. Its incredibly luxurious, if you were on the beings in power which currently include some of the most powerful Exalted Exalts in the setting most of which have a vested personal interest in see you dead (if you're a Solar) or kept well away (if you're practically anyone else).
QuoteExalted Hell is a weird and wondrous place that, for the most part, doesn't affect Creation much. It's dangerous and generally unpleasant, but there are reasons to live there and you don't have to if you don't want to.
Weird and wondrous? Screaming winds that tear you apart, torture forests and flesh towers, lakes of acidic bile. Oh and the rulers are insane vengeful alien gods that have been stewing in their own madness for millennia?
Oh its and its true. Its not a place of suffering where you go if your corpse isn't handle correctly, constantly plotting to draw in more people.
That's the Underworld.
And then there's the Wyld.
Quote from: Nexus;883512The post that got me the one that says Godbound's setting is darker than Creation. Really? Creation is basically the WoD with a bigger sfx budget where everyone's an asshole and best predicated outcome is that it become the WoD. And its a constant bebate whether PCs can change that or not.
Isn't efficient, incredibly corrupt. Potato, Potahto. Its incredibly luxurious, if you were on the beings in power which currently include some of the most powerful Exalted Exalts in the setting most of which have a vested personal interest in see you dead (if you're a Solar) or kept well away (if you're practically anyone else).
Weird and wondrous? Screaming winds that tear you apart, torture forests and flesh towers, lakes of acidic bile. Oh and the rulers are insane vengeful alien gods that have been stewing in their own madness for millennia?
Oh its and its true. Its not a place of suffering where you go if your corpse isn't handle correctly, constantly plotting to draw in more people.
That's the Underworld.
And then there's the Wyld.
The self delusion is strong, eh?
Are we seriously replicating a "my crapsack world is crappier than your crapsack world" argument from the WW/OP forums?
:popcorn:
Quote from: The Butcher;883539Are we seriously replicating a "my crapsack world is crappier than your crapsack world" argument from the WW/OP forums?
:popcorn:
Apparently.
Quote from: The Butcher;883539Are we seriously replicating a "my crapsack world is crappier than your crapsack world" argument from the WW/OP forums?
:popcorn:
"Its more my crapsack worlds isn't a crap sack at all but your? Woo boy..." discussion. So far its not an argument over there no one has said much of anything to counter it.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;883538The self delusion is strong, eh?
Just the Exalted fanbase shitting all over another fantasy game for doing much the same things as Exalted again.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;883542Apparently.
When someone posts something so counter to my experience and knowledge I find it boggling. I explained what the Hell I was talking about with examples because, one I don't know how familiar people are with Exalted's setting and secondly because if I want to make absolutely sure people knew what I meant and why so hopefully spare myself at least a little crap.
I don't know if "we" are replicating anything. But I don't thoi post was hardly any stranger than having a multiple page heated thread over some insane prick's rambling about a decades old module and how it allegedly made him act like an asshole when he ws 12 yrs. old :D
Quote from: Nexus;883544Just the Exalted fanbase shitting all over another fantasy game for doing much the same things as Exalted again.
You mean that post wasn't an endorsement:)?
Also, since your argument is pretty much the same, I feel like I should make the same clarification.
Quote from: Nexus;883563(if you're a Solar) or kept well away (if you're practically anyone else). Its a massive gated community of the highest order that's incredibly dangerous to several of the PC types (and really only easily accessible to one).
Again, dangerous, restricted and largely off limits to most (Infernals).
Actually, you can go in either place. Provided you're an Eclipse, Eclipse-equivalent, or you can get one of those to make you part of its "embassy". You'll be safe until and unless someone provokes you to start violence, at which point you forfeit the protection of the ancient oaths.
Of course, there are many ways to make you Limit Break, and demons are almost bound to use them. Sometimes, it might not even be intentional, and sometimes it might be.
QuoteCreation is a dark setting. It might lighten up in 3rd edition but from the bits I've seen so far I wouldn't make any bets. Now none of this is to say that Creation is darker than Godbound, but I don't agree that's not dark or significantly less so then Exalted. Exalted grim "realism" was pushed as a positive over more fanciful "immature" games like D and D.
No discussion on that account, just wanted to mention that there is a workaround to play in those locations;).
And dark settings are pretty much "places where we play the game" anyway. They're not a negative. Also see: the magic deer setting.
Girls, girls! You're both crapsack princesses!
Besides, while all the Godbound love over at RPGnet and WW/OP warms the cockles of our grog hearts, nothing shall deliver as much mirth as the sperglording of the Gaming Den sperglords. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56401)
I marveled in particular at their inability to grasp Exalted, even more so than the predictable "OMG trusting GM judgement = MTP" potshots at OSR.
Quote from: The Butcher;883577I marveled in particular at their inability to grasp Exalted, even more so than the predictable "OMG trusting GM judgement = MTP" potshots at OSR.
According to what I read in the thread, some of the posters there have issues with basic logic. Grasping Exalted requires more than basic logic, so the result's not exactly surprising;).
The question is, especially given that it looks like a site for D&D3+ fanatics, why does anyone on this site care about their opinion:D?
Who are they and why should we ca... Fuck it I am not dignifying them with that question. They considered Godbound clunky and had issues with attack rolls. Yes the whole is it equal to, or more than twenty is really hard guys. Oh wait it isn't simply because I been doing this shit since before I was five and I am mentally disabled. Seriously if it wasn't for the fact they hate OSR I would wager they have issues with basic things such as going to the bathroom. Too busy flinging their own feces.
Quote from: The Butcher;883577Girls, girls! You're both crapsack princesses!
Besides, while all the Godbound love over at RPGnet and WW/OP warms the cockles of our grog hearts, nothing shall deliver as much mirth as the sperglording of the Gaming Den sperglords. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56401)
Huh. I knew the RPG Site was the place you went to hate on RPG.net. I didn't realized there was yet another site where people went to hate on the RPG Site. The rich ecology of the Internet never fails to amaze me.
Quote from: The Butcher;883577Girls, girls! You're both crapsack princesses!
Besides, while all the Godbound love over at RPGnet and WW/OP warms the cockles of our grog hearts, nothing shall deliver as much mirth as the sperglording of the Gaming Den sperglords. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56401)
I marveled in particular at their inability to grasp Exalted, even more so than the predictable "OMG trusting GM judgement = MTP" potshots at OSR.
After skimming some threads over there, I feel I owe this site an apology for my complaints about hostility and One True Way-ism. TheRPGSite isn't perfect, but it's polite and broad-minded to a fault, compared to what I saw over at the Gaming Den. :)
Quote from: Baulderstone;883621Huh. I knew the RPG Site was the place you went to hate on RPG.net. I didn't realized there was yet another site where people went to hate on the RPG Site. The rich ecology of the Internet never fails to amaze me.
Hate on the therpgsite?
Purple
Awful
the Den
Storygames.com
anything Kent touches
You have a smorgasbord to choose from.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;883622After skimming some threads over there, I feel I owe this site an apology for my complaints about hostility and One True Way-ism. TheRPGSite isn't perfect, but it's polite and broad-minded to a fault, compared to what I saw over at the Gaming Den. :)
I know that had to hurt to say. Kudos. :hatsoff:
As annoying as knuckledraggers get, at least they have thumbs. :D
Quote from: The Butcher;883577Girls, girls! You're both crapsack princesses!
Have I done something to piss you off?
Quote from: The Butcher;883577Girls, girls! You're both crapsack princesses!
That's what I was trying to say (poorly?). Creation is a dark setting. It might lighten up in 3rd edition but from the bits I've seen so far I wouldn't make any bets. Now none of this is to say that Creation is darker than Godbound, but I don't agree that's not dark or significantly less so then Exalted. Exalted grim "realism" was pushed as a positive over more fanciful "immature" games like D and D.
Which one is "darker" boils down to opinion but they're both fairly bleak in their own ways. After years of following Exalted and the fanbase discussion those posts claims really seems to come out of nowhere considering what's been touted (and, to be fair, complained) about the setting in the past.
Quote from: CRKrueger;883625Hate on the therpgsite?
Purple
Awful
the Den
Storygames.com
anything Kent touches
You have a smorgasbord to choose from.
Thanks for laying all that out, but I think I just lost my appetite.
Quote from: Nexus;883660That's what I was trying to say (poorly?).
Seemed clear enough to me that you were saying Godbound was
less dark, so I didn't understand those responses to your comment at all.
Quote from: Baulderstone;883621Huh. I knew the RPG Site was the place you went to hate on RPG.net. I didn't realized there was yet another site where people went to hate on the RPG Site. The rich ecology of the Internet never fails to amaze me.
What I find interesting is how things evolved.
Back in the day, RPG.net forums (along with the general orthodoxy) were all like "System Doesn't Matter".
As a reaction to that, the Forge was all "System Does Matter". A lot of RPG.net drank the kool-aid.
As a reaction to that, the OSR and therpgsite were all "OK, System Might Or Might Not Matter, But The Systems The Forge Promote Kind Of Suck For What We Want To Do". Older games were re-examined, OD&D was reread with the assumption that the rules actually have some purpose, good things happened. Opinions on RPG.net diversified enough to improve the quality of conversation on there (at least for the purposes of talking about system.)
The Gaming Den is the group that says "Frank Trollman Matters". Systems which have Frank's approval are boosted there, systems that he dislikes get run down, and most of the regulars seem to be people who genuinely seem to be interested in and like what Trollman is saying.
Who's Frank Trollman?
Quote from: Nexus;883695Who's Frank Trollman?
He's one of the more caustic characters on the Internet roleplaying scene. He did some work years ago with Shadowrun, and he's spent years bitching about how the next Shadowrun editions were absolute garbage (though I haven't heard his stance on the current game) and trading barbs with the people at Catalyst. He was one of the nastier people at rpg.net for years until even they had to ban him a year or so ago when he broke the rules arguing about Werewolf: the Apocalypse and bestiality.
I'm afraid I don't know much more than that. He's one of those people I don't care to know better, honestly, so I'm really glad he doesn't like this site.
Quote from: Brand55;883713He's one of the more caustic characters on the Internet roleplaying scene. He did some work years ago with Shadowrun, and he's spent years bitching about how the next Shadowrun editions were absolute garbage (though I haven't heard his stance on the current game) and trading barbs with the people at Catalyst. He was one of the nastier people at rpg.net for years until even they had to ban him a year or so ago when he broke the rules arguing about Werewolf: the Apocalypse and bestiality.
I'm afraid I don't know much more than that. He's one of those people I don't care to know better, honestly, so I'm really glad he doesn't like this site.
I think I vaguely remember that Werewolf stuff. Seems like an unpleasant guy.
Quote from: AsenRG;883580The question is, especially given that it looks like a site for D&D3+ fanatics, why does anyone on this site care about their opinion:D?
Quote from: Snowman0147;883581Who are they and why should we ca... Fuck it I am not dignifying them with that question.
Because I am a bad person who finds it funny that someone is unable to grasp TSR D&D? :D
They are... rather
set in their game-balance-über-alles, mever-trust-the-GM, the-rules-are-the-game ways, to put it kindly. But it's an interesting perspective, anthropologically speaking, even if I think I'd never game with someone who'd articulate their views IRL the way people do at TGD.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;883622After skimming some threads over there, I feel I owe this site an apology for my complaints about hostility and One True Way-ism. TheRPGSite isn't perfect, but it's polite and broad-minded to a fault, compared to what I saw over at the Gaming Den. :)
Like here, there's a very vocal hardcore group, and a less vocal and less extreme majority, but it's the loud, vitriolic types who leave lasting impressions.
Quote from: Warthur;883693The Gaming Den is the group that says "Frank Trollman Matters". Systems which have Frank's approval are boosted there, systems that he dislikes get run down, and most of the regulars seem to be people who genuinely seem to be interested in and like what Trollman is saying.
Trolldude is definitely influential there (more so, I dare say, than Pundit here) but there seems to be an underlying set of principles beyond "Trollman says so": (1) the rules are the game and the game is the rules, (2) the GM is not to be trusted with rulings and (3) game balance is of utmost importance.
Quote from: Nexus;883695Who's Frank Trollman?
A knuckle dragging shit flinger.
Quote from: Snowman0147;882305Got the last two done.
Dragon Bloods (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2016/02/exalted-to-godbound-terrestrial-edition.html)
Abyssals (http://paperlaboratoryofdreams.blogspot.com/2016/02/exalted-to-godbound-abyssal-edition.html)
Going to research the alchemicals, infernos, dragons, and mortal options.
If I may, I'd suggest giving Dragonbloods abilities from the Cinnabar Order and Empty Way schools of low magic. The spells from both schools seem like a pretty good way to emulate their charms and natural abilities.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;883750If I may, I'd suggest giving Dragonbloods abilities from the Cinnabar Order and Empty Way schools of low magic. The spells from both schools seem like a pretty good way to emulate their charms and natural abilities.
I think how it is done a heroic mortal can get them by donating a fact to each sorcery. This is by rules of the mortals that Sine Nomine talks about.
Quote from: The Butcher;883577Girls, girls! You're both crapsack princesses!
Besides, while all the Godbound love over at RPGnet and WW/OP warms the cockles of our grog hearts, nothing shall deliver as much mirth as the sperglording of the Gaming Den sperglords. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56401)
I marveled in particular at their inability to grasp Exalted, even more so than the predictable "OMG trusting GM judgement = MTP" potshots at OSR.
Jesus Christ....talk about "The Salt must Flow!"
The amount of seething jealousy Trollman is projecting over this is hilarious. He considers himself to be a master of game design, yet he's never come to close to anything Kevin here has done. You can just feel the Butthurt coming from him.
Quote from: Orphan81;883758Jesus Christ....talk about "The Salt must Flow!"
The amount of seething jealousy Trollman is projecting over this is hilarious. He considers himself to be a master of game design, yet he's never come to close to anything Kevin here has done. You can just feel the Butthurt coming from him.
Against my better judgement, I took a look.
And Trollman is one angry dude.
Quote from: The Butcher;883727Trolldude is definitely influential there (more so, I dare say, than Pundit here) but there seems to be an underlying set of principles beyond "Trollman says so": (1) the rules are the game and the game is the rules, (2) the GM is not to be trusted with rulings and (3) game balance is of utmost importance.
True enough, though those three principles are key to Trollman's thinking. He's been grinding those particular axes for a long time.
1. Wait, his surname is actually "Trollman"? Unfortunate, if so.
2. Such anger, I see. Well on the way to the Dark Side, he is.
3. I love a good argument as much as the next guy, but, dude, do you not have a job, a family, or something? Such effort and vitriol towards ... a game ... is surprising, to say the least.
Quote from: Orphan81;883758Jesus Christ....talk about "The Salt must Flow!"
The amount of seething jealousy Trollman is projecting over this is hilarious. He considers himself to be a master of game design, yet he's never come to close to anything Kevin here has done. You can just feel the Butthurt coming from him.
What I found most amusing was how they were indignantly bashing the game without knowing how it actually works. Apparently they didn't bother reading enough to figure out that Godbound don't need to make as many rolls for the more "everyday" tasks their precious skill lists would be required for. Divine Blade Empress doesn't need a Balance skill to cross a narrow log. She doesn't even roll at all unless she's doing it in the middle of a storm while an army of archers snipe at her and a demonic beasty lies waiting at the bottom of the ravine she's crossing.
Quote from: Brand55;883806What I found most amusing was how they were indignantly bashing the game without knowing how it actually works. Apparently they didn't bother reading enough to figure out that Godbound don't need to make as many rolls for the more "everyday" tasks their precious skill lists would be required for. Divine Blade Empress doesn't need a Balance skill to cross a narrow log. She doesn't even roll at all unless she's doing it in the middle of a storm while an army of archers snipe at her and a demonic beasty lies waiting at the bottom of the ravine she's crossing.
Yeah but to be fair, Trollman read enough to figure out that the game uses fucking THAC0 - one of the worst pieces of RPG design ever - IMO - outside of anal circumference from FATAL.
Or - lets get this straight you're a godbound you start with HP= 8 + con modifier, but heavy weapons do 1d10+str or dex.
I'm two pages in and mechanically I'm already deeply skeptical of how "heroic" and "epic" in scope this game is. Maybe the fluff of the game is, but I fail to see how something obviously mechanically borked by page 13 is going to get better.
Oh look - page 16 - these worthless and low stats only matter when demigods fight an appropriate demigod level threat. Great - so when I combat happens "that matters", I can still be dead in two rounds - fantastic!
Page 18 - attribute checks: 21 - the attribute score. If I've learned anything over the years - subtraction should be used as little as possible.
No - this is just some useless retroclone heartbreaker.
Anyone who's QQing that the guys at tgdmb aren't groveling over how amazing this game is has their up their ass at the awful game design used here. And yes, I'll conceed that the setting may indeed be awesome. I don't care.
As well - since I actually post at tgdmb under another name, there's a broad consensus on the boards that most games have some good parts and other parts that are total shit and you just have to play the game inspite of them.
See this thread: "Are any RPGs actually good?"
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56373&highlight=
Quote from: The Butcher;883727Because I am a bad person who finds it funny that someone is unable to grasp TSR D&D? :D
To be fair: lots of people that started playing with me find TSR D&D
mechanics non-intuitive. They grasp it, it's just not how they're used to thinking.
They find many old-school assumptions totally intuitive, though;).
QuoteThey are... rather set in their game-balance-über-alles, mever-trust-the-GM, the-rules-are-the-game ways, to put it kindly.
Trolldude is definitely influential there (more so, I dare say, than Pundit here) but there seems to be an underlying set of principles beyond "Trollman says so": (1) the rules are the game and the game is the rules, (2) the GM is not to be trusted with rulings and (3) game balance is of utmost importance.
Such people should understand rules better than some of the guys I read discussing Godbound in your link:).
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883822Yeah but to be fair, Trollman read enough to figure out that the game uses fucking THAC0 - one of the worst pieces of RPG design ever - IMO - outside of anal circumference from FATAL.
But it still wasn't enough to actually get how the game plays. "I saw this mechanic I dislike and didn't realise it's used differently and doesn't have a central place" is damning with faint praise, IMO:D!
QuoteOr - lets get this straight you're a godbound you start with HP= 8 + con modifier, but heavy weapons do 1d10+str or dex.
Let me get this straight for you, because you didn't manage it: Godbound don't suffer damage the same way your mortals do. This heavy weapon can't wipe out a Godbound in one successful hit.
QuoteI'm two pages in and mechanically I'm already deeply skeptical of how "heroic" and "epic" in scope this game is. Maybe the fluff of the game is, but I fail to see how something obviously mechanically borked by page 13 is going to get better.
Oh look - page 16 - these worthless and low stats only matter when demigods fight an appropriate demigod level threat. Great - so when I combat happens "that matters", I can still be dead in two rounds - fantastic!
Page 18 - attribute checks: 21 - the attribute score. If I've learned anything over the years - subtraction should be used as little as possible.
"I read 18 pages in a 174 pages game and pronounced my opinion" amounts to Did Not Do The Research. Thanks for admitting it.
QuoteNo - this is just some useless retroclone heartbreaker.
I'm trying to avoid applying "useless" to your reading habits. You're not making it easy.
By my estimate, starting Godbound PCs are more powerful than starting Exalted PCs. How many heartbreaker retroclones do you know that do that?
QuoteAnyone who's QQing that the guys at tgdmb aren't groveling over how amazing this game is has their up their ass at the awful game design used here.
I would reply to this sentence, but due to what I suspect is editing mistakes, it means pretty much nothing.
Did you miss the word "head"? That I can decipher. But you also either left something from an earlier variant of the phrase, or missed something else again before "at".
At this point, I refuse to guesstimate what you mean. It'll probably make me laugh, though, based on the rest of your post:D!
QuoteAnd yes, I'll conceed that the setting may indeed be awesome. I don't care.
Good, because I haven't read the setting yet. It's on my list, though;).
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883824As well - since I actually post at tgdmb under another name, there's a broad consensus on the boards that most games have some good parts and other parts that are total shit and you just have to play the game inspite of them.
See this thread: "Are any RPGs actually good?"
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56373&highlight=
Are you the guy with an Exalted Charm for a name that started this thread? Because this thread at least sounds interesting;).
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883822Yeah but to be fair, Trollman read enough to figure out that the game uses fucking THAC0 - one of the worst pieces of RPG design ever - IMO - outside of anal circumference from FATAL.
Or - lets get this straight you're a godbound you start with HP= 8 + con modifier, but heavy weapons do 1d10+str or dex.
I'm two pages in and mechanically I'm already deeply skeptical of how "heroic" and "epic" in scope this game is. Maybe the fluff of the game is, but I fail to see how something obviously mechanically borked by page 13 is going to get better.
Oh look - page 16 - these worthless and low stats only matter when demigods fight an appropriate demigod level threat. Great - so when I combat happens "that matters", I can still be dead in two rounds - fantastic!
Page 18 - attribute checks: 21 - the attribute score. If I've learned anything over the years - subtraction should be used as little as possible.
No - this is just some useless retroclone heartbreaker.
Anyone who's QQing that the guys at tgdmb aren't groveling over how amazing this game is has their up their ass at the awful game design used here. And yes, I'll conceed that the setting may indeed be awesome. I don't care.
I take it you completely missed the part where damage, hit points, and hit dice are handled differently from what you're used to?
Trust me, no one is crying over your inability to do the very basic math necessary to transform THAC0 into an ascending AC system. We are getting a good laugh at your antics, though, so by all means keep spewing vitriol at a game you've clearly only skimmed and don't understand.
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883822Or - lets get this straight you're a godbound you start with HP= 8 + con modifier, but heavy weapons do 1d10+str or dex.
That weapon has 40% of doing 1 HP damage, 40% of doing 2 HP damage, and 20% of doing 4 HP damage, before factoring whether it hits or not and any gifts used. At its base, that makes a Godbound more robust than any Exalted against a comparable hit, and Godbound become more robust with experience without further special powers.
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883822Anyone who's QQing that the guys at tgdmb aren't groveling over how amazing this game is has their up their ass at the awful game design used here. And yes, I'll conceed that the setting may indeed be awesome. I don't care.
Cool strawman bro. Maybe you can take it home and run a game for it?
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883824As well - since I actually post at tgdmb under another name, there's a broad consensus on the boards that most games have some good parts and other parts that are total shit and you just have to play the game inspite of them.
See this thread: "Are any RPGs actually good?"
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56373&highlight=
Much as I enjoy reading TGD every now and then, I think it's pretty damning that such a thread is even judged necessary by a poster.
Not saying that theRPGsite is perfect — we too have our share of people trying to pass off their gaming preferences and prejudices as Objectively Better — but people here seem less concerned with "spherical cows" and more with the demands of actual game play. Not to mention being a tad more upbeat about the hobby in general.
This is before you apply CON mod. My character is sitting on 29 hp at level four. If I have that health gift I would get 2 more hp per level. That is 37 hp. At this point mortals are laughable as I can use miracles to nuke them to ashes.
Quote from: Snowman0147;883853This is before you apply CON mod. My character is sitting on 29 hp at level four. If I have that health gift I would get 2 more hp per level. That is 37 hp. At this point mortals are laughable as I can use miracles to nuke them to ashes.
Why would you need to wait for Level Four:D?
Fair enough that I get some criticism for not finishing reading the book. I'm just saying, that a skim through the first 20 pages or so gave me a pretty bad opinion of where the game was going mechanically.
Quote from: AsenRG;883856Why would you need to wait for Level Four:D?
My words are beast, might, endurance, and night. I am saving for sorcery. I just use my character as a example.
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883858Fair enough that I get some criticism for not finishing reading the book. I'm just saying, that a skim through the first 20 pages or so gave me a pretty bad opinion of where the game was going mechanically.
And I'm telling you that your opinion right now is "it's got two legs, no feathers, must be a human":D!
Quote from: Snowman0147;883861My words are beast, might, endurance, and night. I am saving for sorcery. I just use my character as a example.
It's OK then;). My Words include Alacrity and Sword, though, and that's murder against an almost arbitrarily great number of mortals!
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883858Fair enough that I get some criticism for not finishing reading the book. I'm just saying, that a skim through the first 20 pages or so gave me a pretty bad opinion of where the game was going mechanically.
TBH your post kind of comes across as from a person who is fishing for things not to like and would not be genuinely interested in the RPG regardless. That is going to colour how much weight your posts carry on the subject and how people respond to them.
Iron Rain you have to think of this way. Unless the enemy can do straight, use divine smite, and/or corona of fury the worst you can expect is 4 damage. Only 4 damage. That is a equivalent of a critical hit. It is rare to get that. In fact it is as rare as getting no damage at all from a successful attack. The most you see is 1, or 2 damage.
Now you got to take in the fact that you have damage overflow which transfer excess damage to the foes near him. Then if there are lesser foes you get a bonus 1d8 fray die for further pain.
Say you got three soldiers with claymores. They attack your Godbound, but you get to act first. Best case is you roll 10, or more on the damage die. That is 4 HD damage. The soldiers are 2 HD each. One dies instantly because you struck them and the nearest one also dies due to overflow. Finally the fray die gets a 6 which is 2 HD damage. So the third soldier dies leaving you unharmed.
It is even possible for a 1st level character to have Gifts that are able to inflict their Fray dice on all targets within line of sight. If you group lesser mortal foes into mobs, that turns the damage into straight damage, and you can go around killing hundreds of plebs.
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883858Fair enough that I get some criticism for not finishing reading the book. I'm just saying, that a skim through the first 20 pages or so gave me a pretty bad opinion of where the game was going mechanically.
Which is fine. Trust me, I don't think anyone here expects Godbound's mechanics to be universally adored. Some of us have already tossed around ideas for how we'd swap around some calculations to better suit our own preferences, and I know there's plenty of people who want to use parts of the game while completely ignoring anything even mentioning a d20.
It's just that particularly harsh criticism of the game is going to draw a similarly harsh response when that criticism isn't actually talking about what's in the book. If you care to know more about the game feel free to ask questions. And if you're sure it's not for you, then no worries. There's certainly more fish in the sea.
Quote from: Skywalker;883896It is even possible for a 1st level character to have Gifts that are able to inflict their Fray dice on all targets within line of sight. If you group lesser mortal foes into mobs, that turns the damage into straight damage, and you can go around killing hundreds of plebs.
I'm surprised Rain of Sorrow doesn't require Effort be committed for the scene, it's quite powerful.
On the other hand, it only affects Mobs and lesser foes, so it's not has powerful as Corona of Fury (plus CF does a lot more damage than RoS when you gain a few levels).
PS: I love this game so much.:D
Quote from: Iron_Rain;883824As well - since I actually post at tgdmb under another name, there's a broad consensus on the boards that most games have some good parts and other parts that are total shit and you just have to play the game inspite of them.
See this thread: "Are any RPGs actually good?"
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56373&highlight=
Oh, and now I have an answer for you:).
"Yes, many RPGs manage to achieve what they set out to do, and not get in the way of fun, though what they set out to do might not be fun for you, that's your problem".
You can post it for me, and link to this post, I'm not planning to register just to post one sentence:D!
In the interest of keeping things fair and balanced.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?777479-EX3-What-have-your-positive-experiences-been-so-far
I had one positive experience with EX3 too: one day we stopped playing it.:p
In all seriousnes now: we liked the core engine when we playtested it, it's only when you add the damn bazillon Charms that it becomes super slow and boring for us. If they recycle the core engine for other games with less powers and rule bits it'd be a fine game.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;884005I had one positive experience with EX3 too: one day we stopped playing it.:p
In all seriousnes now: we liked the core engine when we playtested it, it's only when you add the damn bazillon Charms that it becomes super slow and boring for us. If they recycle the core engine for other games with less powers and rule bits it'd be a fine game.
That might be why I like it more than most people, it seems. I am still playing a Heroic Mortal, and by now should have lots of XP banked.
I seem to have a higher tolerance for crunch than many, though, so that might be it.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;884005I had one positive experience with EX3 too: one day we stopped playing it.:p
In all seriousnes now: we liked the core engine when we playtested it, it's only when you add the damn bazillon Charms that it becomes super slow and boring for us. If they recycle the core engine for other games with less powers and rule bits it'd be a fine game.
This was my take on it. The charms have gone crazy and taken over any clean flow of character design. Frankly I'd love an Exalted game with fewer charms and more leedway for powers. Godlike seems to be in that middle ground. Not perfect, but worlds better than what I've dealt with so far.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;884029This was my take on it. The charms have gone crazy and taken over any clean flow of character design.
It definitely appeals to very different spot on the Venn diagram than I occupy. The whole "Your stupid if you expected anything different" crap has gotten really old.
Quote from: Nexus;884088It definitely appeals to very different spot on the Venn diagram than I occupy. The whole "Your stupid if you expected anything different" crap has gotten really old.
Yeah I don't really buy the whole, "It was always meant to play like a CCG" argument. I always looked at is more as "It plays like a fighting game." Sure there are lots of special moves and combos...but nowhere near on the level of a fucking CCG like magic the gathering..
Quote from: Orphan81;884114Yeah I don't really buy the whole, "It was always meant to play like a CCG" argument. I always looked at is more as "It plays like a fighting game." Sure there are lots of special moves and combos...but nowhere near on the level of a fucking CCG like magic the gathering..
When something doesn't work out or turns out differently than originally intended with WW/ST games "It was always meant to be that way, anyone that saw it different is stupid and wrong." is a very typical response, IME.
Quote from: Nexus;884124When something doesn't work out or turns out differently than originally intended with WW/ST games "It was always meant to be that way, anyone that saw it different is stupid and wrong." is a very typical response, IME.
Unironically, just before Exalted, White Wolf had their Street Fighter RPG and if you look at the power set there you can see a LOT of the logic that eventually went into charms.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;884442Unironically, just before Exalted, White Wolf had their Street Fighter RPG and if you look at the power set there you can see a LOT of the logic that eventually went into charms.
I remember liking Street Fighter...
jg
Quote from: James Gillen;884472I remember liking Street Fighter...
jg
It had it's charms. And the core of a custom supper attacks tied to marital arts skills and attributes system. It was like if someone handed you a make your own baseline charm kit and didn't expect you to worry if it was skill, chi, or sci-fi mojo nonsense. If you wanted Y effect you inputted X effort and rolled, have fun! It also had some of most hilariously bad example characters, but that's besides the point.
I've got to dig my book back out. I don't recall any rules for building your own moves (beside the typical "make something up"). I actually liked the example characters in Contenders. They were all over the place but worked for a "fighting game" universe with their their rosters of strange backgrounds and taken individually they were fairly good NPC for a various flavors of games from pulp to martial arts flicks or MA flavored super heroes.
Mechanically, most of example characters were pretty wonky and some of the moves were flat out broken but again nothing new with White Wolf.
Edit: Oh wait. I misread the post. I don't think you were saying there was a design system in the rules My bad!
Edit2: They sort of revisted Street Fighter: The Storytelling game for the "Burn Legend" material in Shards of the Exalted Dream. That and World of Darkness: Combat: The Book of Beating Ass.
Well, Burn Legend had its simplistic charm;).
Quote from: Nexus;884508That and World of Darkness: Combat: The Book of Beating Ass.
The "Big Book of Beating Ass".
WoD Combat was actually a pretty neat book. If you wanted to actually make combat more detailed in your 2nd ed WoD games. It came with a list of maneuvers which would impose penalties or buffs for accuracy, and then any damage bonus with extra effects.
It also had good discussion material on how each WoD creatures powers could be used more offensively than just the basic ones.
Some of Cwod's "World of Darkness" supplements were pretty damn awesome. From Combat, to the Midnight Circus, to Sorcerer (The revised version of Sorcerer was fucking terrible and was a Mage supplement instead of a generic WoD), Mafia, Demon Hunter X, and Blood Dimmed Tides.
Quote from: Orphan81;884623The "Big Book of Beating Ass".
WoD Combat was actually a pretty neat book. If you wanted to actually make combat more detailed in your 2nd ed WoD games. It came with a list of maneuvers which would impose penalties or buffs for accuracy, and then any damage bonus with extra effects.
It also had good discussion material on how each WoD creatures powers could be used more offensively than just the basic ones.
Some of Cwod's "World of Darkness" supplements were pretty damn awesome. From Combat, to the Midnight Circus, to Sorcerer (The revised version of Sorcerer was fucking terrible and was a Mage supplement instead of a generic WoD), Mafia, Demon Hunter X, and Blood Dimmed Tides.
I actually loved this book. Too bad no one wanted to use it.
Quote from: James Gillen;884472I remember liking Street Fighter...
jg
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;884487It had it's charms. And the core of a custom supper attacks tied to marital arts skills and attributes system. It was like if someone handed you a make your own baseline charm kit and didn't expect you to worry if it was skill, chi, or sci-fi mojo nonsense. If you wanted Y effect you inputted X effort and rolled, have fun! It also had some of most hilariously bad example characters, but that's besides the point.
E. Honda's first name: Edmund
Quote from: Nexus;884508Edit: Oh wait. I misread the post. I don't think you were saying there was a design system in the rules My bad!
Edit2: They sort of revisted Street Fighter: The Storytelling game for the "Burn Legend" material in Shards of the Exalted Dream. That and World of Darkness: Combat: The Book of Beating Ass.
Ayup. It wasn't a point buy build you own affair, more a big cafe list of common moves and stuff you could reskin to build you fighting move set. But if you looked at it, it was proto-charms.
I remember the WoD Combat book. Wasn't the martial arts in that book a merit buy system? Reminded me a lot of the direction they took Exalted 3E.
http://theonyxpath.com/there-are-new-ways-to-get-our-stuff-monday-meeting-notes/
Quote from: Nexus;886471http://theonyxpath.com/there-are-new-ways-to-get-our-stuff-monday-meeting-notes/
Quote from: OnyxPathTODAY'S REASON TO DRINK: Mage 20 is shipping and boy is that book big!
They already want to forget about the damn book existence? Wow.
Exalted 3rd edition is still in proofing stage I see. Godbound may still come out long before Exalted does.
Quote from: Snowman0147;886757Exalted 3rd edition is still in proofing stage I see. Godbound may still come out long before Exalted does.
That is going to be funny, I've got to admit!
Quote from: Snowman0147;886757Exalted 3rd edition is still in proofing stage I see. Godbound may still come out long before Exalted does.
I think it's a certainty that we will have the physical book of Godbound in our hands before Exalted3e. M20 took almost a year from final PDF to print (leaving aside the POD option).
Quote from: AsenRG;886871That is going to be funny, I've got to admit!
No it would be sad. The fact that Onyx Path had taken nearly 700K, is three years late, pissing off a deeply loyal fan base, broke their stream lining process, and the only demo has poser art with a few stolen art. That is Exalted 3rd edition.
Now compare that to a guy that got only 32K and even if he fails you still get the PDF to play the game. Oh the art he got so far is not stolen and pretty good. That is Godbound.
I am just amazed that a team with so many advantages can fuck up so much. Then compare to a single man with almost nothing, but is succeeding so much already. This should be impossible, but here it is right before my eyes. If I was a Exalted 3rd edition Kickstarter I would be piss off.
Quote from: Snowman0147;886927No it would be sad. The fact that Onyx Path had taken nearly 700K, is three years late, pissing off a deeply loyal fan base, broke their stream lining process, and the only demo has poser art with a few stolen art. That is Exalted 3rd edition.
Now compare that to a guy that got only 32K and even if he fails you still get the PDF to play the game. Oh the art he got so far is not stolen and pretty good. That is Godbound.
I am just amazed that a team with so many advantages can fuck up so much. Then compare to a single man with almost nothing, but is succeeding so much already. This should be impossible, but here it is right before my eyes. If I was a Exalted 3rd edition Kickstarter I would be piss off.
I'm not angry. Just disappointed. But I have Godbound so; I'll just brush off the loss and call it lesson learned on further Exalted KS projects.
Quote from: AsenRG;886871That is going to be funny, I've got to admit!
Quote from: Snowman0147;886927No it would be sad.
Potato, potahto;).
Also, you can't get me to cry for any KS, much less one that's going to be fulfilled, eventually.
If you would consider crying, hear the word of the sages:
"Weird, crazy shit is going to happen. You can either laugh or cry. It hurts less to laugh". - Gronan/OG, on TBP.
Says it all in my book:D!
Quote from: Snowman0147;886927No it would be sad. The fact that Onyx Path had taken nearly 700K, is three years late, pissing off a deeply loyal fan base, broke their stream lining process, and the only demo has poser art with a few stolen art. That is Exalted 3rd edition.
Now compare that to a guy that got only 32K and even if he fails you still get the PDF to play the game. Oh the art he got so far is not stolen and pretty good. That is Godbound.
I am just amazed that a team with so many advantages can fuck up so much. Then compare to a single man with almost nothing, but is succeeding so much already. This should be impossible, but here it is right before my eyes. If I was a Exalted 3rd edition Kickstarter I would be piss off.
Frustrated, embarrassed, used, foolish... the list can go on.
Quote from: Iron_Rain;887271Frustrated, embarrassed, used, foolish... the list can go on.
As an Ex3 backer, I feel neither of these things. At the end, I have a crunchy game and a much less crunchy game attempting to do the same thing, and both are more or less successful:).
I don't call that a loss;).
Godbound is frustrating to me. Its so close to what I wanted yet so far away. I guess conversion it is.
Quote from: AsenRG;887284As an Ex3 backer, I feel neither of these things. At the end, I have a crunchy game and a much less crunchy game attempting to do the same thing, and both are more or less successful:).
I don't call that a loss;).
How can you have the book, when it's still in the proofing stage???
Quote from: Christopher Brady;887291How can you have the book, when it's still in the proofing stage???
He's a backer so he probably has the backer PDF. There's more than a few people running games right now with it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;887291How can you have the book, when it's still in the proofing stage???
We backers got the non-proofread PDF since October.
Personally, I've had access to the game for 2 years or so because I was a playtester. We really liked the core engine until they added the Charms. Just too crunchy for us (but I think the game is cool for those who like heavy crunch games, unfotunately that's not me or my group).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;887291How can you have the book, when it's still in the proofing stage???
What other people said, perks of being a backer:).
Quote from: Maese Mateo;887311We backers got the non-proofread PDF since October.
Personally, I've had access to the game for 2 years or so because I was a playtester. We really liked the core engine until they added the Charms. Just too crunchy for us (but I think the game is cool for those who like heavy crunch games, unfotunately that's not me or my group).
I don't like heavy crunch games, but can tolerate them.
Still, I kinda like better the Ex3 game where I'm playing, and in this one I haven't Exalted yet, so I don't have to deal with Charms;).
Quote from: AsenRG;887562Still, I kinda like better the Ex3 game where I'm playing, and in this one I haven't Exalted yet, so I don't have to deal with Charms;).
Heroic Mortals with EX3 is cool. The momentum mechanic combat uses works quite well with them.
I could see the engine turned into a cool wuxia game, with a new system for martial arts.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;887568Heroic Mortals with EX3 is cool. The momentum mechanic combat uses works quite well with them.
I could see the engine turned into a cool wuxia game, with a new system for martial arts.
Well, my game so far is a martial arts game, and I'm using it as is. Works splendidly:).
The only obstacle was teaching people to visualize the effects of Momentum in in character terms;).
Quote from: Maese Mateo;887568Heroic Mortals with EX3 is cool. The momentum mechanic combat uses works quite well with them.
I could see the engine turned into a cool wuxia game, with a new system for martial arts.
So many really like the momentum system but its one of the things unsold me on it. I don't like how it "feels" and the time I tried it it felt like the same slog just grinding through different numbers.
Okay with the delux version of godbound I did this. (http://scollsofroyaldivinity.blogspot.com/2016/04/exalted-to-godbound.html)
Quote from: Snowman0147;889018Okay with the delux version of godbound I did this. (http://scollsofroyaldivinity.blogspot.com/2016/04/exalted-to-godbound.html)
Ayep. Bought right.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889018Okay with the delux version of godbound I did this. (http://scollsofroyaldivinity.blogspot.com/2016/04/exalted-to-godbound.html)
Well, there's something I disagree about. I mean, I agree Godbound are more powerful than Exalted, at least at the start, I just disagree with the examples.
QuoteNone of these exalted can become a arch-god nor can create a paradise. The terrestrials and exigents don't even have dominion so they can't even make those everlasting changes.
At least Solars can wrest a paradise from the Wyld, and Exigents might well have Dominion.
Why wouldn't the DBs have Dominion? I think the rules in the book, where they simply can't make impossible changes, would be fine.
Would this be about the time to spin off a new tangent topic?
Perhaps: "Godbound Does Exalted"? (I'm sorry I couldn't do alliterative justice to the sublime 'Debbie Does Dallas' but it will have to do.)
Skip this post I made a error.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889094I didn't make the dragon bloods not use dominion. Kevin did that and let us remember this. Dragon bloods are the weakest of the exalted so it makes sense.
Actually, Scions can use Dominion just fine, they just can't use it for Impossible changes.
QuoteScions find it harder to produce the large-scale, long-term effects
that other Godbound can conjure. Scions cannot use Influence or
Dominion to create Impossible changes in the world. These reali-
ty-defying changes are simply beyond their power to enact, so great
deeds usually require them to pile up enough lesser alterations until
their desired end becomes merely Improbable instead of Impossible.
Quote from: AsenRG;889082At least Solars can wrest a paradise from the Wyld
By paradise you mean a place where souls are free to rest their for all externality? A place where the solar can spend a action to regain all spent effort? Which he has double as much effort so he is twice the solar he once was?
No I don't think so. He can make very nice land which could resemble a heavenly paradise, but that is it.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;889096Actually, Scions can use Dominion just fine, they just can't use it for Impossible changes.
Must had got it confused with the side box then. My apologizes then.
Okay I fix the error. Dragon bloods, exigents, and rakshas can use dominion up to improbable changes. Well no a raksha can't make any changes in creation, but can make impossible changes freely in the wyld. Sorry about that.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889103Okay I fix the error. Dragon bloods, exigents, and rakshas can use dominion up to improbable changes. Well no a raksha can't make any changes in creation, but can make impossible changes freely in the wyld. Sorry about that.
Are you going to attempt to maintain the power teirs in Exalted or leaving that up to individual groups/GMs?
Kevin already did the power tiers. Terrestrials are stuck on lesser gifts, can only use miracles from one word, and can only do improbable changes. Even at level 6 they can only get one gift from their one word that allows miracles. That is fairly weak to me.
Quote from: Opaopajr;889092Would this be about the time to spin off a new tangent topic?
Perhaps: "Godbound Does Exalted"? (I'm sorry I couldn't do alliterative justice to the sublime 'Debbie Does Dallas' but it will have to do.)
We should, but you got the name for it so why not let you have the honor to open it.
What's the general difference between an Impossible and an Improbable change?
Improbable means possible, but highly unlikely. Like finding that ultra rare magical metal at the exact right mine cause your that lucky.
Impossible cannot happen at all. Magical metal is on short supple so you breed metal plates hogs with magical leather hide as good as that magical metal.
Quote from: Nexus;889111What's the general difference between an Impossible and an Improbable change?
A Plausible change is something that doesn't really require any explanation. Like training a large group of people to be good fighters and thus making them stronger (giving them an extra hit die or some attack bonus).
An Improbable change is something that's not beyond the pale, but still unlikely. Like convincing a city's government to shift from a communist to a democratic system.
An Impossible change is shit that doesn't make sense and really could only happen because the Godbound was exerting magical will on the thing, like... I dunno, making a herd of horses into a herd of pegasi.
And to give a consistent example across the board...
You have a group of villagers and are a God Bound with the word sword..
Plausible
You turn the villagers into a group of professional soldiers
Improbable
Your Village is now a flat out Ninja/Commando training area, like the Iga ninja villages in the mountains of Japan. Everyone from the children to the elderly knows how to kill in 1,000 ways and is an expert in some combat related field.
Impossible
Your Ninja Village citizens now all have out and out mystical abilities. They possess inherent magical traits such as turning into Shadows and all know a lesser strife.
Situation: You are a Godbound with the word Fertility and Artifice, you have a village
Probable: The Village crop yield is fantastically better, and it's structures now make use of better materials and things such as windmills, and better irrigation. The animals of the village are exceptionally healthy and produce far more.
Improbable: The village now has indoor plumbing and limited power using those windmills and waterwheels. Everything born in the village is exceptionally healthy, and the plants and animals are known for their medicinal qualities.
Impossible: Your Village benefits from modern equivalents of electricity, communication, and sanitation. Beyond just having medicinal qualities, the plants and animals from the village can produce magical effects when used by an accomplished alchemist or hedge witch.
Situation: You are dealing with a tyrannical king who works his people to the bone and keeps them hopeless with brutal tyranny..You have the word of passion
Probable: You create a hidden rebellion which begins to work against the King
Improbable: You create an out and out revolt, with the kingdom now in a civil war the former rebellion now having enough recruits to fight the tyrant on their own terms
Impossible: The regime has a change of heart, the king and those who propped him up abdicate their power out of shame, and a new democratic republic is established in their place.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889098By paradise you mean a place where souls are free to rest their for all externality? A place where the solar can spend a action to regain all spent effort? Which he has double as much effort so he is twice the solar he once was?
Yes, just make the whole thing into a giant Manse!
Quote from: Snowman0147;889114Improbable means possible, but highly unlikely. Like finding that ultra rare magical metal at the exact right mine cause your that lucky.
Impossible cannot happen at all. Magical metal is on short supple so you breed metal plates hogs with magical leather hide as good as that magical metal.
Quote from: Jetstream;889117A Plausible change is something that doesn't really require any explanation. Like training a large group of people to be good fighters and thus making them stronger (giving them an extra hit die or some attack bonus).
An Improbable change is something that's not beyond the pale, but still unlikely. Like convincing a city's government to shift from a communist to a democratic system.
An Impossible change is shit that doesn't make sense and really could only happen because the Godbound was exerting magical will on the thing, like... I dunno, making a herd of horses into a herd of pegasi.
Quote from: Orphan81;889123And to give a consistent example across the board...
You have a group of villagers and are a God Bound with the word sword..
Plausible
You turn the villagers into a group of professional soldiers
Improbable
Your Village is now a flat out Ninja/Commando training area, like the Iga ninja villages in the mountains of Japan. Everyone from the children to the elderly knows how to kill in 1,000 ways and is an expert in some combat related field.
Impossible
Your Ninja Village citizens now all have out and out mystical abilities. They possess inherent magical traits such as turning into Shadows and all know a lesser strife.
Situation: You are a Godbound with the word Fertility and Artifice, you have a village
Probable: The Village crop yield is fantastically better, and it's structures now make use of better materials and things such as windmills, and better irrigation. The animals of the village are exceptionally healthy and produce far more.
Improbable: The village now has indoor plumbing and limited power using those windmills and waterwheels. Everything born in the village is exceptionally healthy, and the plants and animals are known for their medicinal qualities.
Impossible: Your Village benefits from modern equivalents of electricity, communication, and sanitation. Beyond just having medicinal qualities, the plants and animals from the village can produce magical effects when used by an accomplished alchemist or hedge witch.
Situation: You are dealing with a tyrannical king who works his people to the bone and keeps them hopeless with brutal tyranny..You have the word of passion
Probable: You create a hidden rebellion which begins to work against the King
Improbable: You create an out and out revolt, with the kingdom now in a civil war the former rebellion now having enough recruits to fight the tyrant on their own terms
Impossible: The regime has a change of heart, the king and those who propped him up abdicate their power out of shame, and a new democratic republic is established in their place.
Thanks much everyone
Quote from: Nexus;887577So many really like the momentum system but its one of the things unsold me on it. I don't like how it "feels" and the time I tried it it felt like the same slog just grinding through different numbers.
Well, it's a matter of taste. I like how attacks chain off each other, and prepare each other, and how a good counter can totally destroy your careful set-up:).
If it feels the same to you, though, there's obviously not much I can do about it;).
Ex3 Backers offered coupon for POD.
RPG.net thread on the topic. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?779353-EX3-Huge-props-to-RichT-and-OPP)
Quote from: AsenRG;889137Well, it's a matter of taste. I like how attacks chain off each other, and prepare each other, and how a good counter can totally destroy your careful set-up:).
If it feels the same to you, though, there's obviously not much I can do about it;).
Yeah. Different strokes. It felt tedious, overly fiddly and pointlessly complicated to my group but like I said some people really love it and more power to them.
RichT is saving his ass and I don't blame him. I would do the exact same thing if I was in his shoes. Other than passing out some pink slips to the team that dragged me down into this hell hole.
Yeah, saw that thread. The spittle-lickers at work again. I'm sure they all have a sore throat from all the fellatio they provide to OPP and the Devs.
And the thread-started is like "I don't even like Ex3e but...", yeah, not buying it...he's the biggest OPP Sycophant there is.
I mean seriously?!
This is the LEAST they can do. Why? Well, first of all, the obvious - they screwed the KS up real bad...and it isn't even done yet.
Second of all, all the OPP KS have this now...KS that started way after Exalted but are already out yet!
So yeah, not that big a gift to the Ex3e backers as those celebration-junkies want to make it seem. On the contrary...the real reason is just "it's good PR" ... not anything to do with "as a thank you to you patient backers" ... sure, they sell it that way...but who are they kidding after all the snark and contempt they showed their upset backers so far.
Will i use the offer? That very much depends on how much the "for cost" price is. And i am betting it is not low...because over 600 pages will be expensive in color and hardcover even "at cost".
While I like OP offering free POD as an apology to backers (I doubt I'll use my coupon, though, shipping to Argentina is to expensive for me and I know I won't play the game anyway), I can't but feel suspicious about the timing of the announcement.
They posted the update less than 24hs after Godbound's KS endend and everyone was talking about how awesome Themed Godbound are to play Exalted.
It's probably just a funny coincidence and nothing else, but still I can't quite get this thought out of my head.
I suspect you're right, Maese Mateo, because PR stunts are PR stunts:).
But then, what I know is that I got an at-cost code for free. I might not use it, but at least I have the option, so I approve their PR stunt and give it an automatic susccess on top of the 2 bonus dice;).
Coupon or no coupon, this Kickstarter was a failure by any reasonable standard. Congrats, OP, the second highest grossing Kickstarter in the hobbt's history has failed worse than Dwimmermount. Maybe you should have hired Autarch to kick in when you couldn't? :D
Now at cost color printing at OBS for a 660 page book is...
- standard softcover: $21.40
- standard hardcover: $26.10
- premium softcover: $67.80
- premium hardcover: $72.30
So assuming all 4,368 backers use their voucher and Onyx Path is not getting a special deal, this gesture will cost them...
- standard softcover: $93,475.20
- standard hardcover: $114,004.80
- premium softcover: $296,150.40
- premium hardcover: $315,806.40
And assuming they get the maximum quantity discount listed of 20% it becomes...
- standard softcover: $74,780.16
- standard hardcover: $91,203.84
- premium softcover: $236,920.32
- premium hardcover: $252,645.12
Oh wait nevermind (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition/posts/1534767)...
"we will send every backer a link
for a discounted version of the PoD, cut to as close to the cost for us to print it as we can get it."
So these aren't even at cost coupons like the RPG.net thread implied (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?779353-EX3-Huge-props-to-RichT-and-OPP), but merely discounts which will be as good as they can possibly be no trust us really. At least now folks who have the coupon can figure out exactly how much of a discount that actually
is.
If it were me, I'd want a coupon I could put towards
other Onyx Path products at this point.
#DamageControl
Oh wow... Damn RichT. That is just scum. I honestly thought it was for the thing people paid money. Now if I understand this right they have to buy another book to get the discount benefit. Damn that is ice cold.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889252Oh wow... Damn RichT. That is just scum. I honestly thought it was for the thing people paid money. Now if I understand this right they have to buy another book to get the discount benefit. Damn that is ice cold.
It's an at-cost coupon. Of course they have to buy a book to benefit from it. It's not "ice cold." It's a decent gesture that they didn't have to do.
They're giving away a book to all their backers, basically. That doesn't mean
Drive-Thru RPG shouldn't get paid for the printing.
Edit; And I hope you're not gonna suggest that OPP should pay for the PoD printing on those books. That'd be ridiculous.
Jetstream how can you even say that with a straight face? Onyx Path shits in the mouth of every fan they can get. Especially those that kiss their ass.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889293Jetstream how can you even say that with a straight face? Onyx Path shits in the mouth of every fan they can get. Especially those that kiss their ass.
... Yeah, I'm not engaging you if this is an attitude you can take with a straight face.
Yeah Snowman's hate of Onyx Path is a little over the top. Sometimes it's worth taking with a grain of salt...
That being said, Onyx Path is certainly a shadow of what White Wolf once was...and they HAVE alienated a huge portion of their audience, willfully and gleefully (which is why they don't make near the money they used to. You'd think they would have put 2 and 2 together here.)
There are still plenty of Onyx Path Projects I myself an interested and want (Anything that's 20th anniversary more or less)
However, I do believe this coupon is an emergency stop gap competition maneuver in response to Godbound. Let's be real here, it will be a fucking embarrassment to Onyx Path if physical copies of Godbound are in people's hands before Exalted is.
Let's be clear here, OPP is not a single, monolithic entity involving all the same people. It's a collection of cells working on different projects, some of which have no overlaps whatsoever.
Just because the team on Exalted are a bunch of lying, incompetent arseholes, doesn't mean the teams working on other projects are.
Quote from: Orphan81;889303However, I do believe this coupon is an emergency stop gap competition maneuver in response to Godbound. Let's be real here, it will be a fucking embarrassment to Onyx Path if physical copies of Godbound are in people's hands before Exalted is.
Meh. I think the coupon was always planned. It's a standard Kickstarter reward for them these days.
Now if you were to argue that the timing of the announcement was a reaction to Godbound, maybe that'd hold water.
Quote from: Kiero;889306Let's be clear here, OPP is not a single, monolithic entity involving all the same people. It's a collection of cells working on different projects, some of which have no overlaps whatsoever.
Just because the team on Exalted are a bunch of lying, incompetent arseholes, doesn't mean the teams working on other projects are.
True, but it's more than just the Exalted team that's a problem at onyx path these days. Don't get me wrong, there are still a bunch of awesome folks, but some of their writers have taken extremist political views, to the point that even polite disagreement is no longer tolerated.
One need only look at the Beast fiasco to see how it's beginning to actually lower the quality of their products.
Had you seen the cover of the book in the Rpgdrivethru? It is a big purple mess that screams, "Don't buy me!!!" Here it is. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/162443/Beast-The-Primordial?src=slider_view)
Now here (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1122/Vampire-The-Requiem?term=Vampire+the+req&it=1) is the vampire book. Look how simple and yet delicate the vampire cover is versa lets shove everything at once in beast.
Quote from: Jetstream;889289I hope you're not gonna suggest that OPP should pay for the PoD printing on those books. That'd be ridiculous.
>_>
opps...Quote from: Jetstream;889289It's an at-cost coupon.
Is it? Because his exact words again were...
"we will send every backer a link for a discounted version of the PoD, cut to as close to the cost for us to print it as we can get it."That doesn't
sound like an at-cost coupon, does it? Perhaps you have some hard numbers to share which can clear up any misunderstanding.
Quote from: Kiero;889306Let's be clear here, OPP is not a single, monolithic entity involving all the same people. It's a collection of cells working on different projects, some of which have no overlaps whatsoever.
Just because the team on Exalted are a bunch of lying, incompetent arseholes, doesn't mean the teams working on other projects are.
Of course not.
Some of them are hardcore sjws.
Quote from: Kiero;889306Let's be clear here, OPP is not a single, monolithic entity involving all the same people. It's a collection of cells working on different projects, some of which have no overlaps whatsoever.
Just because the team on Exalted are a bunch of lying, incompetent arseholes, doesn't mean the teams working on other projects are.
This is true. But I feel better not supporting any of them by dint of association.
I'd rather save my sheckels for the new White Wolf (and even that is not guaranteed.)
I vote with my cash. Act like a dick and still want me to buy your stuff? Negative ghostrider.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;889394>_>
opps...
Is it? Because his exact words again were...
"we will send every backer a link for a discounted version of the PoD, cut to as close to the cost for us to print it as we can get it."
That doesn't sound like an at-cost coupon, does it? Perhaps you have some hard numbers to share which can clear up any misunderstanding.
They're coupons generated by the DTRPG system. It's hedge-language. They're all the same.
Quote from: Jetstream;889463They're coupons generated by the DTRPG system. It's hedge-language. They're all the same.
Which means what? Has DTRPG clarified? Or should we take them up on their word which, let's be honest, hasn't been entirely truthful?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;889464Which means what? Has DTRPG clarified? Or should we take them up on their word which, let's be honest, hasn't been entirely truthful?
Do you have any evidence at all that they've lied? Haven't any of you people ever heard the phrase "never assume malice when incompetence is more likely?"
Quote from: Jetstream;889477Do you have any evidence at all that they've lied? Haven't any of you people ever heard the phrase "never assume malice when incompetence is more likely?"
They lied about the release date. What's inside the book, twice now, by claiming that the rules will be 'completely different', despite giving backers preview copies.
So yeah, they've lied. Just because they are incompetent (which is no excuse, given how many Kickstarters they've had now) does not mean they won't lie to save face. Which if TBP is anything to go by, they do a lot of.
When you generate a DTRPG at-cost POD coupon, you need to set a minimum price. That minimum price is the higher of either the UK or the US print costs, so as to ensure OBS doesn't actually lose money on your coupon if someone from the more expensive domain orders a book. Because if this, you can sometimes end up making 40 or 50 cents on an "at-cost" coupon when someone from the cheaper domain orders a book. I suspect their language is simply referencing this fact, in that OBS won't let them put the minimum coupon floor any lower than they'll set it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;889484They lied about the release date. What's inside the book, twice now, by claiming that the rules will be 'completely different', despite giving backers preview copies.
So yeah, they've lied. Just because they are incompetent (which is no excuse, given how many Kickstarters they've had now) does not mean they won't lie to save face. Which if TBP is anything to go by, they do a lot of.
I just don't see how people can defend Onyx Path any more. They willingly alienated their fan base, they lied countless of times, Beast is really a political game against gamergate which people hated*, they had Kickstarter issues before Exalted, and yet this happen to Exalted any way.
Now where did all that money go?
*: Shit forgot to type this bit. Look the reason people are upset isn't because they hate women, but because they don't real world politics in their games. So how can a person who wants no part in gamergate going to do when you literally shove it into the products. You already piss off the gamergate crowd, but now your pissing people who want to stay neutral.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889527Beast is really a political game against gamergate
What?
Quote from: SineNomine;889498When you generate a DTRPG at-cost POD coupon, you need to set a minimum price. That minimum price is the higher of either the UK or the US print costs, so as to ensure OBS doesn't actually lose money on your coupon if someone from the more expensive domain orders a book. Because if this, you can sometimes end up making 40 or 50 cents on an "at-cost" coupon when someone from the cheaper domain orders a book. I suspect their language is simply referencing this fact, in that OBS won't let them put the minimum coupon floor any lower than they'll set it.
Interesting information. Thanks for the insight.
I'm pretty sure this is what they tried to say with the "at a discounted price" phrase.
Quote from: AsenRG;889596What?
Yeah it was a big deal when the Kickstarter happen. They made the heroes (aka the antagonists with no redeeming qualities) into gamergate supporters. They even gave one hero a fedora, trench coat, and goes around saying mi'lady. No one liked that. Not even the SJWs that the book is made for.
Well actually no. Gamergate had a good chuckle. This mainly due to how heroes are created. See when a beast attacks some one and that person survives they can become a hero. What makes it worst is the example on how that can happen.
Granny beast finds a bully taking Halloween candy from other kids. Now if you just call the parents congrats your a responsible adult. Did Granny do that. Nope! She stalk the bully to find his house, broke into his home, poison his candy, and when the kid was puking his guts out Granny then chokes the shit out of him. If the bully, who is just a child, survives that he may grow up into a hero. Yet the writers want you to feel sorry for Granny and despise the kid because he stole some candy.
Not surprising the SJWs did not like that. Especially when the beasts are refering to SJWs. Yes I said it. The writers intended the beasts to be the special snow flakes of social justice and those dirty heroes as gamergaters. One problem. They made the heroes into the good guys with powerful justifications to hunt down beasts.
Look if you want angels of retribution please read up on The Crow and play the Cat Lady. They did the proper job on that trope without hating on a consumers right activist group and making themselves look evil.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889634Yeah it was a big deal when the Kickstarter happen. They made the heroes (aka the antagonists with no redeeming qualities) into gamergate supporters. They even gave one hero a fedora, trench coat, and goes around saying mi'lady. No one liked that. Not even the SJWs that the book is made for.
Well actually no. Gamergate had a good chuckle. This mainly due to how heroes are created. See when a beast attacks some one and that person survives they can become a hero. What makes it worst is the example on how that can happen.
Granny beast finds a bully taking Halloween candy from other kids. Now if you just call the parents congrats your a responsible adult. Did Granny do that. Nope! She stalk the bully to find his house, broke into his home, poison his candy, and when the kid was puking his guts out Granny then chokes the shit out of him. If the bully, who is just a child, survives that he may grow up into a hero. Yet the writers want you to feel sorry for Granny and despise the kid because he stole some candy.
Not surprising the SJWs did not like that. Especially when the beasts are refering to SJWs. Yes I said it. The writers intended the beasts to be the special snow flakes of social justice and those dirty heroes as gamergaters. One problem. They made the heroes into the good guys with powerful justifications to hunt down beasts.
Look if you want angels of retribution please read up on The Crow and play the Cat Lady. They did the proper job on that trope without hating on a consumers right activist group and making themselves look evil.
OK, that's officially hilarious, and I expect the next game to be "Hero: The Beast-Slapping":D!
Not to be a pill Snowman, because I don't put anything above ideologues on the internet anymore, but pics or it didn't happen.
Well then don't believe me because I don't have the pics. Though RPG.net did bitch a lot about it so that is the first place to look if your skeptical.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889660Well then don't believe me because I don't have the pics. Though RPG.net did bitch a lot about it so that is the first place to look if your skeptical.
Wade through Big Purple threads for SJW claptrap? Now you're just being mean. :D
Here's an article from 1d4 chan that covers some of it if that helps.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Beast:_The_Primordial
Beast the Primordial Teaser thread from TBP. Its HUGE.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?751112-Beast-the-Primordial-teaser-thread
Quote from: JamesV;889662Wade through Big Purple threads for SJW claptrap? Now you're just being mean. :D
Your right. I waded through that purple muck, but tvtropes makes it easier. Here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/BeastThePrimordial) is the link.
Quote from: JamesV;889657Not to be a pill Snowman, because I don't put anything above ideologues on the internet anymore, but pics or it didn't happen.
There's at least one giant thread on RPG.net (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?751112-Beast-the-Primordial-teaser-thread (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?751112-Beast-the-Primordial-teaser-thread)) where people looked at the teasers during the Kickstarter and got upset (for a number of reasons, not just the Gamergate comparisons). As for the actual GG reference, you can see it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/388afx/allusion_to_gamergate_in_beast_the_otherkinning/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/388afx/allusion_to_gamergate_in_beast_the_otherkinning/). The part was in the GM section talking about how to handle Heroes and directly referenced "ethics in video game journalism" along with things like vaccines as topics that got people fired up and unreasonable. Such people are examples of how Heroes are supposed to be, so entrenched in their own worlds they can't be reasoned with or possibly see any other alternatives.
People actually got upset for a number of reasons about the game when it was first unveiled. I think they actually cared more that Heroes were more "good" than the Beasts, but the Gamergate stuff certainly didn't help things.
Reading the snip from the Reddit thread, I get the impression that they were alluding to GG in the general sense, how polarized both sides are. On the other hand, I can't discount OP's own opinions on the issue.
Brand, Snowman, thanks for sharing what you found.
not just the teasers but a complete leaked manuscript.
Quote from: Nexus;889665Beast the Primordial Teaser thread from TBP. Its HUGE.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?751112-Beast-the-Primordial-teaser-thread
"The lack of teaser is a tease.
How meta. "
Quote from: Snowman0147;889668Your right. I waded through that purple muck, but tvtropes makes it easier. Here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/BeastThePrimordial) is the link.
That doesn't make it easier at all. It just reinforces the impression I got from your description, where I can't tell whether "Heroes" is a backhanded insult, "Beast" is supposed to be a description of GamerGaters or their alleged victims, or which side is supposed to be more righteously offended.
JG
Quote from: JamesV;889662Wade through Big Purple threads for SJW claptrap? Now you're just being mean. :D
Can confirm, though Snowman is exaggerating the issue to some degree and focusing and not bringing up the others..
The thing is, Beast Pissed everyone off, not just anti-authoritarian types, but many members of their target audience as well. It was recieved so poorly during it's Kickstarter Draft, that emergency writing was done to give an entire new focus to the game...
In any case, we'll go over the original problems real quick here..
Beast was originally pitched as playing something that wasn't human, and yearning for the suffering of others...That's literally what they feed on...Human suffering. One of the splat types was how you made people suffer... Through intense pain? Through Bullying? Through Fear? Through Stealing things?
In any case, you thought you were Human but you never were...One day you have a dream of a big monster that comes and eats your soul and you awaken to your Beastness...
Beasts have no real goals or purpose beyond living and answering the call of their hunger. They could feed by doing shit to people physically, or entering their dreams to do so... The point was you had to literally cause someone to have to make an Integrity check ((Nwod's Sanity System)) to get an effect..
So here's where Heroes came in...
Heroes were people who had been attacked by a Beast...They were people who had lower integrity scores as well... The point Onyx Path was trying to enforce...was the people with lower Integrity scores were "Bad" because they had done things which lowered their Integrity...
The problem is...Mental illness, and Abuse can also cause you to lose Integrity points...
So we have the story of a Beast comes up to some already abused Victim and starts bullying the shit out of them in order to feed...
A Hero is a person who snaps when this happens, and decides they're going to kill the Beast who fucked with them...
Now again, the writers kept trying to say how Bad and Selfish these Heroes were, Because hey... The Heroes now want to kill all Beasts, and they get more powers for killing Beasts...and they're selfish and want to build up their own Legends..
And Beasts? Well Beasts just want to be left alone! (Actual line from the Draft) So you have these inhuman creatures who want to be left alone, but enjoy feeding on Human suffering, picking on someone with low self esteem until that person decides to hunt them and their kind down to stop it..
The Heroes were suppose to be stand ins for GamerGate, Men's Rights Activists, Conservatives, "Nice Guys", as well as actual bad people like Racists too... The problem was way to much ambiguity... You could see the political axe to grind the writers had...
The problem with the Tone on Heroes also wasn't helped by the sample Heroes wildely differing from one another and the material presented..
The First Hero was a Fedora wearing Neck Beard who says "M'lady". I shit you not...Beyond the fact he was the wrong stereotype for a GamerGater or MRA, it was just stupid..
The other Hero NPC was someone everybody liked and couldn't understand how she was suppose to be a Villain.. Now real quickly here's a thing about Beasts.. they can make Spiritual Lairs where they take on their true form.. people can enter these..
Anyway, Beast attacks girl.. Girl chases the beast into it's Lair (Teen Girl by the way) and actually manages to slay it... When she leaves, her body leaves but her spirit gets stuck...
So her body goes into a coma....and her Spirit is stuck in the Primordial Dream (The place all the Lairs connect to)... Now thing is, she can get into Other Lairs... so lots of other Heroes know about her and call her the "Warrior Princess"... She shows up and helps them... and most of the time, they let her get the Killing Blow (Only the Hero who gets the Killing Blow gets the cool extra powers)... Because they want her to live... they're all trying to power her up so she'll wake from her coma..
Everyone fucking loved the Warrior Princess...and quite reasonably couldn't understand why she was suppose to be evil and a villain...
Now we get into some other parts.... Beast was suppose to resonate with Trans folk and Queer folk... I.e. they didn't ask to be born the way they are... it's just the way they are... But lots of actual Trans and Queer folk didn't like the allusions of them being monsters who fed on Human suffering for no good reason...
The Example of play as well, involved a character portraying an old woman... Said old woman had a teen boy next door who stole some other kids Halloween Candy... She sneaks into his house, poisons the candy he stole.. waits until he starts throwing up...then places a plastic bag over his head and whispers dark things to him while suffocating him until he's unconscious...
This was presented in a manner of being totally awesome and cool...
Further, Beast was presented as the most cross over worthy splat... Only, all of the In character fiction made them out to be "Poochy" they were cooler and more powerful than all the other Supernaturals and all the other monsters could only sit around and talk about how awesome Beasts were...
All of this added up, led to Beast needing a MAJOR overhaul...
The biggest change involved giving Beasts a REASON to torture others... Now they're suppose to be the primordial lessons for humanity.. the whole "Don't put your hand on the burning stove" idea.. they're suppose to teach painful lessons...
Heroes were originally the folks who were suppose to learn those lessons and take them back to the tribe, but in the modern day they're to bombarded by society and end up going crazy just trying to kill the Beasts rather than learn anything..
Now Beasts can ACTUALLY redeem Heroes... They're also put on a more equal footing with the other supernatural creatures Lorewise.. and now they're people who choose to take on the mantle of a Beast..
Anyway that's the saga as encapuslated as I can tell it.
How am I exaggerating when every thing I said is true? You confirmed every point that I said to be true.
Quote from: Orphan81;889709Anyway that's the saga as encapsulated as I can tell it.
Thanks for the summation. It cleared up allot. In the rewrite do Beasts still target humans with low Integrity?
Beast's earlier issues remind of some problems people had with Changeling: The Dreaming. There was a pretty clear slant going on, what the writers thought was cool was Glamorous and generated wonder, what they thought was dull was Banal and bringing Winter including things like coin collecting. There wasn't much rhyme or reason to it so we ignored largely ignored their calls.
I can under see why trying to make the PCs a metaphor of LBGT people went over like a wet fart in church. That was just a terrible idea. HBO's True Blood had the same problem. Vampires were a practical Anvil level metaphor for homosexuals but they were usually depicted as a legitimate dangerous threats and outright monsters.
Which we were apparently supposed to think were cool.
Quote from: Orphan81;889709Beast was originally pitched as playing something that wasn't human, and yearning for the suffering of others...That's literally what they feed on...Human suffering. One of the splat types was how you made people suffer... Through intense pain? Through Bullying? Through Fear? Through Stealing things?
Beasts have no real goals or purpose beyond living and answering the call of their hunger. They could feed by doing shit to people physically, or entering their dreams to do so... The point was you had to literally cause someone to have to make an Integrity check ((Nwod's Sanity System)) to get an effect..
So here's where Heroes came in...
Heroes were people who had been attacked by a Beast...They were people who had lower integrity scores as well... The point Onyx Path was trying to enforce...was the people with lower Integrity scores were "Bad" because they had done things which lowered their Integrity...
The problem is...Mental illness, and Abuse can also cause you to lose Integrity points...
So we have the story of a Beast comes up to some already abused Victim and starts bullying the shit out of them in order to feed...
A Hero is a person who snaps when this happens, and decides they're going to kill the Beast who fucked with them...
Now again, the writers kept trying to say how Bad and Selfish these Heroes were, Because hey... The Heroes now want to kill all Beasts, and they get more powers for killing Beasts...and they're selfish and want to build up their own Legends..
And Beasts? Well Beasts just want to be left alone! (Actual line from the Draft) So you have these inhuman creatures who want to be left alone, but enjoy feeding on Human suffering, picking on someone with low self esteem until that person decides to hunt them and their kind down to stop it..
The Heroes were suppose to be stand ins for GamerGate, Men's Rights Activists, Conservatives, "Nice Guys", as well as actual bad people like Racists too... The problem was way to much ambiguity... You could see the political axe to grind the writers had...
OK, that's officially hilariously bad:D.
I mean, if anything, that means that GamerGate, MRAs, Conservatives, "Nice Guys" (wtf is that and why is it supposed to be a bad thing?) and Racists have all been attacked by LGBT people and are trying to fight back. If that's not validation of those groups' agenda, I don't know what is:p!
I mean, the fuck, how didn't this get pegged as the new RaHoWa? It's about as subtle, and also excuses racists and most of the other groups listed here (still no idea why "Nice Guys" are here, sounds like someone you'd want to be your friend:)).
QuoteThe problem with the Tone on Heroes also wasn't helped by the sample Heroes wildely differing from one another and the material presented..
The First Hero was a Fedora wearing Neck Beard who says "M'lady". I shit you not...Beyond the fact he was the wrong stereotype for a GamerGater or MRA, it was just stupid..
Other than lack of fashion taste, what was he doing wrong?
QuoteThe other Hero NPC was someone everybody liked and couldn't understand how she was suppose to be a Villain.. Now real quickly here's a thing about Beasts.. they can make Spiritual Lairs where they take on their true form.. people can enter these..
Anyway, Beast attacks girl.. Girl chases the beast into it's Lair (Teen Girl by the way) and actually manages to slay it... When she leaves, her body leaves but her spirit gets stuck...
So her body goes into a coma....and her Spirit is stuck in the Primordial Dream (The place all the Lairs connect to)... Now thing is, she can get into Other Lairs... so lots of other Heroes know about her and call her the "Warrior Princess"... She shows up and helps them... and most of the time, they let her get the Killing Blow (Only the Hero who gets the Killing Blow gets the cool extra powers)... Because they want her to live... they're all trying to power her up so she'll wake from her coma..
Everyone fucking loved the Warrior Princess...and quite reasonably couldn't understand why she was suppose to be evil and a villain...
Sign me up in the Warrior Princess Fanclub:D! Her, a villain?
Someone's out of touch.
QuoteNow we get into some other parts.... Beast was suppose to resonate with Trans folk and Queer folk... I.e. they didn't ask to be born the way they are... it's just the way they are... But lots of actual Trans and Queer folk didn't like the allusions of them being monsters who fed on Human suffering for no good reason...
Well, duh! I don't blame them.
QuoteThe Example of play as well, involved a character portraying an old woman... Said old woman had a teen boy next door who stole some other kids Halloween Candy... She sneaks into his house, poisons the candy he stole.. waits until he starts throwing up...then places a plastic bag over his head and whispers dark things to him while suffocating him until he's unconscious...
This was presented in a manner of being totally awesome and cool...
Further, Beast was presented as the most cross over worthy splat...
In a way, it is. Nothing else can make the Forsaken and the Pure join forces, I suspect.
QuoteOnly, all of the In character fiction made them out to be "Poochy" they were cooler and more powerful than all the other Supernaturals and all the other monsters could only sit around and talk about how awesome Beasts were...
And Mar(t)y S(t)uism to boot?
QuoteAll of this added up, led to Beast needing a MAJOR overhaul...
The biggest change involved giving Beasts a REASON to torture others... Now they're suppose to be the primordial lessons for humanity.. the whole "Don't put your hand on the burning stove" idea.. they're suppose to teach painful lessons...
Heroes were originally the folks who were suppose to learn those lessons and take them back to the tribe, but in the modern day they're to bombarded by society and end up going crazy just trying to kill the Beasts rather than learn anything..
Now Beasts can ACTUALLY redeem Heroes... They're also put on a more equal footing with the other supernatural creatures Lorewise.. and now they're people who choose to take on the mantle of a Beast..
Oh, hey, I remember participating in a Beast thread. I'm now glad I said I don't like the idea of the re-write.
"I'm going to feed on your suffering in order to teach you lessons!"
Yeah, right, I have a word for such people. In fact, I know many words that would fit:p!
Basically, I'd have an easier time playing a force of nature, knowing full well that it has to be destroyed at the end;).
Quote from: Nexus;889729I can under see why trying to make the PCs a metaphor of LBGT people went over like a wet fart in church. That was just a terrible idea. HBO's True Blood had the same problem. Vampires were a practical Anvil level metaphor for homosexuals but they were usually depicted as a legitimate dangerous threats and outright monsters.
Which we were apparently supposed to think were cool.
Vampires are a metaphor for sexual deviations since before there was television. At the time of their [STRIKE]creation[/STRIKE] reimagining, homosexuality was very much considered a deviation even across the Western world.
And yet we don't need to comment on people thinking they're cool...not just to the touch.
For a change, it seems HBO just gave you the authentic vampire experience, at least in that particulat regard:D!
Quote from: AsenRG;889771OK, that's officially hilariously bad:D.
I mean, if anything, that means that GamerGate, MRAs, Conservatives, "Nice Guys" (wtf is that and why is it supposed to be a bad thing?)
In this context, it's a guy who is sweet and nice and helpful and a shoulder to cry on and just a really good friend, and then gets angry and resentful when he finds out that he's not entitled to sex as a result.
I'm sure it's actually a thing, although I also think the term gets thrown around way too much.
Quote from: AsenRG;889771Vampires are a metaphor for sexual deviations since before there was television. At the time of their [STRIKE]creation[/STRIKE] reimagining, homosexuality was very much considered a deviation even across the Western world.
And yet we don't need to comment on people thinking they're cool...not just to the touch.
For a change, it seems HBO just gave you the authentic vampire experience, at least in that particulat regard:D!
Have you ever seen the show?
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;889774In this context, it's a guy who is sweet and nice and helpful and a shoulder to cry on and just a really good friend, and then gets angry and resentful when he finds out that he's not entitled to sex as a result.
I'm sure it's actually a thing, although I also think the term gets thrown around way too much.
Thanks, got it:).
Quote from: Nexus;889779Have you ever seen the show?
No, I'm just having fun with the idea that HBO might have delivered an authentic experience by accident;). Sorry I didn't make it clear.
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;889774In this context, it's a guy who is sweet and nice and helpful and a shoulder to cry on and just a really good friend, and then gets angry and resentful when he finds out that he's not entitled to sex as a result.
I'm sure it's actually a thing, although I also think the term gets thrown around way too much.
I always thought the term was born from a reaction to the complaint that the men that women are close friends with that might be attracted to them get frustrated seeing them turn to other men particularly "bad boys" get hurt and cry on their shoulders but continuously rebuff or ignore them as ever being more than friends because women want bad boys not "nice guys". I guess in modern slang this is "Friend zoned"?
Or more broadly that some guys being quieter, less aggressive, less bold and "nicer" don't stand much of chance romantically against more Alpha Male sorts even if those Alphas are jerks.
"Nice Guy" seems to be an inversion of that turning the "nice guy" into a creepy passive aggressive stalker that mostly fakes being a friend to get close in hopes of manipulating a woman into a sexual or romantic relationship or just assumes his kindness earns him sex. I think it something that occurs but I agree the idea and term (like so much jargon) is used way to much. Its applied to practically any instance of unrequited love, shy would be suitors or having any interest at all in a woman you're friends. I mean I've seen thread (including one on Tang) asking if its acceptable to BE friends with a woman you're attracted too at all.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;889484They lied about the release date. What's inside the book, twice now, by claiming that the rules will be 'completely different', despite giving backers preview copies.
So yeah, they've lied. Just because they are incompetent (which is no excuse, given how many Kickstarters they've had now) does not mean they won't lie to save face. Which if TBP is anything to go by, they do a lot of.
Missing a release date is not lying about a release date. Unless of course you think every product delay is a lie, I guess. If so, you must hate Nintendo and Blizzard entertainment. And as for the rules being completely different? They are. They wrote an entirely new combat engine. The social system is nearly unrecognizable. What'd you expect? Abandoning Storyteller?
The combat system mostly uses same calculations and attributes but you just grind though a different set of numbers. They dropped the "Ticks" though.
The Social System is hardly unrecognizable. Its improved and makes heavier use of intimacies but like combat the original is still and quite visible. The division between MDVs was dropped, Intimacies were expanded as a replacement for Virtues (though it was suggested that intimacies and other factors could impose greater modifiers as situational effects) and some more "moves" were added but mostly they boil down to the same "Beat MDV and have an effect unless target spends Willpower" as before just with more boiler plate attached.
Some of the "new" rules are just expansions on the old ones or implied modifiers made explicit. Most of the rest of the game is identical. Its a evolutionary change rather the revolutionary one that was implied by the phrase "Completely different game". Its definitely not a "completely different" game. Less changed then between OWOD storyteller and NWOD storyteller or AEON continuity storyteller and what I've seen "Sardonyx (sp). If it was a "lie" or over hyping is up to the beholder.
I think he raises some good points. Of course GoldenH got a mod warning for it.
Quote from: GoldenH;19983866Them's the facts.
I'll never play Exalted with the people who I played Exalted 1e with. Why? Because they're not even looking at Exalted releases anymore. And honestly, neither am I.
Exalted 3e will have a couple months of people saying it's perfect and then it will collapse like 2e did because the system, again, will not work, because, again, they'll play the game enough to realize the flaws and inevitably the writers will lose the ability to produce a single vision of the game's setting and rules.
What will fix it? You'll never fix it, because there's been too much variation in the rules and too many camps like one incompatible version or another. And they should be allowed to. Feel free to pry those 3rd edition shadowrun rules out of the fan's cold dead hands.
But of course the developers are still trying to use the books as a way to win silly internet arguments and have their own exalted become the 'canon exalted'. Well, as long as you're fostering such a hostile and toxic environment, you'll never reclaim the creativity and community of the good 'ol days.
Gold said nothing, but the truth.
Okay I covered manses and demenses. It is here. (http://scollsofroyaldivinity.blogspot.com/2016/04/manses-and-demenses.html)
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;889240If it were me, I'd want a coupon I could put towards other Onyx Path products at this point.
#DamageControl
What would you want if it was a dice kickstarter that had been totally silent for over two years?
QuoteYou left an excluded middle the size of the atlantic ocean, Lucky. Poor, excluded middle. In DnD, you are not supposed to change the status quo. Nations and City-States are appropriately statted, in their armies and luminaries, so even someone at 20th level could not take them on, having multiple high-as-possible level defenders and powers watching over it. In Exalted? You can just knock down the sandcastles before you. Right out of the gate, you can challenge the great Realm that stands astride Creation, to fight off its legions and duel its champions.
You are bypassing the entire part where you are a walking geopolitical entity, which the blurb in the back of the book promises, and delivers, in spades.
Exalted gives something no other game does, but what it does is something that interacts with its world, people, and nations, not something that ignores them all to dick around with metaphysics (which you can absolutely do.)
Full Disclosure: I'm not a D and D fan but not a hater either. Its just not my thing. And I haven't playedi more than a handful of times in my gaming career. I couldn't even tell what you what editions I played when I did.
But from limited direct exposure and listening to players, some of the avid talk about their games the above just doesn't strike me as true. D and D doesn't seem to push making major changes to the setting as a primary setting point but the idea that you can't or its set up that way seems inaccurate. And I take any comments about D and D from an Exalted fan with a grain of salts. Not to mention complaining about the figures and groups that are established as being the Powers the Be being extremely powerful and largely beyond he reach of PCs for long time seems unfair coming from an Exalted player (with its well known "Elder Problem").
QuoteEx 3 core book – From RichT: PoD and PDFs on sale to the public this Wednesday, backers will get the discounted PoD links before that. Now on to prepping the actual deluxe traditionally printed files.
http://theonyxpath.com/all-pitched-out-monday-meeting-notes/
Quote from: Jetstream;889463They're coupons generated by the DTRPG system. It's hedge-language. They're all the same.
So it's deliberately ambiguous language used to lessen the impact of unpleasant statements.
Man, I
wish I knew how to do that.
Quote from: SineNomine;889498When you generate a DTRPG at-cost POD coupon, you need to set a minimum price. That minimum price is the higher of either the UK or the US print costs, so as to ensure OBS doesn't actually lose money on your coupon if someone from the more expensive domain orders a book. Because if this, you can sometimes end up making 40 or 50 cents on an "at-cost" coupon when someone from the cheaper domain orders a book. I suspect their language is simply referencing this fact, in that OBS won't let them put the minimum coupon floor any lower than they'll set it.
Then again this was clear and pleasant.
Quote from: jcfiala;891304What would you want if it was a dice kickstarter that had been totally silent for over two years?
I'd expect a refund
and some dice, which is
what I want to do, have been
trying to do, but I'm not sure mentioning that in an update would be helpful until I'm actually able to
do it for everyone.
Well, that explains those four weird looking guys riding horses up the street earlier today.
Well shit some actual good news for exalted. I am surprise.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;889240Now at cost color printing at OBS for a 660 page book is...
- standard softcover: $21.40
- standard hardcover: $26.10
- premium softcover: $67.80
- premium hardcover: $72.30
So, how accurate are your prices above? If these are 100% accurate, then OPP is not giving backers real "at cost" coupons.
The color hardcover is 35$ and the premium color hardcover is 75$ with the coupon.
So i guess the premium option is almost at cost if your prices are correct. For the standard it is quite a jump though...i wonder where those extra 9$ go... more hookers and cocaine for the devs?! :D :p
I am very curious to see how 3rd Edition will do in the wild, so to speak, off the reservation of generally I being fully seen only by some of the more hardcore fans. I expect it will be like previous editions: lots of initial praise, perhaps for months then the cracks will start to show.
Aren't the cracks already showing?
Quote from: gibdefs;892863Aren't the cracks already showing?
The more obvious (and subjective ones like design choices) but I'm wondering about systemic flaws, things that just don't hold up or work well in rigorous play.
And here we go...
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/162759/Exalted-3rd-Edition
Apparently, Drivethru is creaking under the strain of downloads.
Thirty bucks is awfully expensive for a pdf.
Quote from: Snowman0147;893084Thirty bucks is awfully expensive for a pdf.
And its not slowing things down much. The second money train is pulling into the station.
I got my discount coupon in email. Might order this weekend, but I got to ask: is that really ugly cover from the backer PDF still the front cover?
Quote from: Starglyte;893116I got my discount coupon in email. Might order this weekend, but I got to ask: is that really ugly cover from the backer PDF still the front cover?
Is it a image of a solar woman in red holding a sword? If so, then yes.
Quote from: Snowman0147;893084Thirty bucks is awfully expensive for a pdf.
And, as is usual with OPP products, they still charge money for the PDF when you spend more than $100 for a physical book. Just one of many reasons why my money goes to companies like PEG or Sine Nomine instead.
Quote from: Snowman0147;893119Is it a image of a solar woman in red holding a sword? If so, then yes.
Ugh.
Quote from: Starglyte;893116I got my discount coupon in email. Might order this weekend, but I got to ask: is that really ugly cover from the backer PDF still the front cover?
The cover is the picture of Prince Diamond. Was the cover of the original?
Quote from: Snowman0147;893119Is it a image of a solar woman in red holding a sword? If so, then yes.
Prince Diamond seems to the Poster boy for this edition so I expect we'll see allot of her in the art.
Quote from: Snowman0147;893119Is it a image of a solar woman in red holding a sword? If so, then yes.
*cough* Better not let the wrong people hear you say that. The cover is supposed to show Prince Diamond, a transgender character. Born female, he's the most special of special snowflake characters Exalted has ever had. OPP made sure he got the most attention (he's on the cover by himself, after all, instead of having the entire Solar circle there) and they made sure to make him the most heroic, noble, and all-around selfless of the new iconic characters.
Holy shit. I was gonna make a joke by comparing this Diamond to Sword Art Online Kirkio, aka the Mary Sue of anime, and found out "anime Jesus" shares the covers with other characters. That says a lot about your character when Kirkio is actually more humble than you.
Quote from: Snowman0147;893138Holy shit. I was gonna make a joke by comparing this Diamond to Sword Art Online Kirkio, aka the Mary Sue of anime, and found out "anime Jesus" shares the covers with other characters. That says a lot about your character when Kirkio is actually more humble than you.
Oh, Prince Diamond is humble. Prince Diamond is noble. Prince Diamond is so much better than you or I that we should all drop to our knees and grovel at how much better than us Prince Diamond is.
Second edition had a lot of faults, obviously, but one of the things I think it definitely did right was putting all five iconic characters on the splat books. Regardless, if they really are keeping that image for the print edition it just means the cover art is another area where (IMO) Godbound beats out Exalted.
Oh fuck yes it does. Couldn't find a pic for it in google yet. Still it is pretty epic with that heavenly throne set in the middle of the cathedral throne room. The skeletons depicts a battle in the ancient past and the room had long since been abandon.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/5kywalker/Godbound_zpscs9wrklw.png)
Quote from: Brand55;893143Oh, Prince Diamond is humble. Prince Diamond is noble. Prince Diamond is so much better than you or I that we should all drop to our knees and grovel at how much better than us Prince Diamond is.
Second edition had a lot of faults, obviously, but one of the things I think it definitely did right was putting all five iconic characters on the splat books. Regardless, if they really are keeping that image for the print edition it just means the cover art is another area where (IMO) Godbound beats out Exalted.
Doesn't Prince Diamond still freak the fuck out of if someone refers to her by the wrong pronoun or whatever have you even if their culture and upbringing aren't don't allow for a concept like Deleth (or however its spelled)? I guess that's considered a feature not a bug.
Quote from: Nexus;893148Doesn't Prince Diamond still freak the fuck out of if someone refers to her by the wrong pronoun or whatever have you even if their culture and upbringing aren't don't allow for a concept like Deleth (or however its spelled)? I guess that's considered a feature not a bug.
I think it's Dereth. And I hadn't heard about that aspect of the character, though I'm sure it would be considered a feature by most of the intended audience. I first read up on the character when the iconics were being introduced last year, and the author went out of his way to point out how noble and heroic PD was compared to the other Solars. All the talk about how selfless and great PD was combined with him being the lone person on the cover just turned me off the character.
Thank you Skywalker.
Quote from: Snowman0147;893145Oh fuck yes it does. Couldn't find a pic for it in google yet. Still it is pretty epic with that heavenly throne set in the middle of the cathedral throne room. The skeletons depicts a battle in the ancient past and the room had long since been abandon.
I think it's supposed to be the Throne of God, where many Made Gods perished when they tried to sit on it.
Quote from: Brand55;893149I think it's Dereth. And I hadn't heard about that aspect of the character, though I'm sure it would be considered a feature by most of the intended audience. I first read up on the character when the iconics were being introduced last year, and the author went out of his way to point out how noble and heroic PD was compared to the other Solars. All the talk about how selfless and great PD was combined with him being the lone person on the cover just turned me off the character.
I can understand that. The did up sell her allot when she proved to be popular not unusual for Exalted. And I agree she is a special snowflake and if she so "insensitive" to other cultures I wonder how she does the Eclipse thing as I'd guess most of Creation probably judges what gender you are by what junk you have (or maybe not given the writers). Even Dereth wasn't really a "transgender" concept, at least not entirely but something that allowed individuals to step outside their cultures strict gender roles though at a cost (which was mostly dropped this edition, IIRC). So maybe she'll be depicted as spreading wisdom to the ignorant or some such.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;893152I think it's supposed to be the Throne of God, where many Made Gods perished when they tried to sit on it.
Which is why I call it the heavenly throne.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;893152I think it's supposed to be the Throne of God, where many Made Gods perished when they tried to sit on it.
I just love the scale of it all. Whoever--or whatever--used to sit on that throne was massive. Stars Without Number is still my gold standard for RPG covers and has my favorite cover of Sine Nomine's books, but Godbound is a solid second place (just ahead of Starvation Cheap).
Quote from: Brand55;893130*cough* Better not let the wrong people hear you say that.
If Prince Diamond was a real real person and I were talking to her or in a venue she frequented I'd refer to her as she wished to be referred too. It doesn't cost my anything to be polite but as she's a fictional character and can't possibly be offended or hurt by anything I say (not existing and all) I just call her what I think she is.
Quote from: Nexus;893158If Prince Diamond was a real real person and I were talking to her or in a venue she frequented I'd refer to her as she wished to be referred too. It doesn't cost my anything to be polite but as she's a fictional character and can't possibly be offended or hurt by anything I say (not existing and all) I just call her what I think she is.
Oh, I understand completely. But, even though I was joking, there are actually plenty of people who would go off if they saw someone referring to any trans person--real or fictional--by their birth gender.
Quote from: Brand55;893166Oh, I understand completely. But, even though I was joking, there are actually plenty of people who would go off if they saw someone referring to any trans person--real or fictional--by their birth gender.
I'm sorry if I let my general annoyance with the character seep through in that post. It had nothing to do with you said. And yeah, I've seen some people dog piled for it on TBP.
Quote from: Nexus;893167I'm sorry if I let my general annoyance with the character seep through in that post. It had nothing to do with you said. And yeah, I've seen some people dog piled for it on TBP.
Nah, no need to apologize. You'd certainly get drawn and quartered on TBP for such a criminal act, but we've even got one or two posters around here that would speak up about it (and not in a joking way like I did). Luckily, I don't think they bother poking their noses around Exalted threads much.
Shipping cost for the discounted POD book costs as much as the discounted POD book.
So.... nope.
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;893199Shipping cost for the discounted POD book costs as much as the discounted POD book.
So.... nope.
Are we talking shipping in the US? Because that seems absurdly high. I know it's a large book, but I've gotten some big packages from places like Noble Knight before and the shipping wasn't too outrageous.
Quote from: Brand55;893201Are we talking shipping in the US? Because that seems absurdly high. I know it's a large book, but I've gotten some big packages from places like Noble Knight before and the shipping wasn't too outrageous.
I'm not in the US
but I have ordered POD stuff from DTRPG before and shipping costs were more reasonable.
Maybe it's because of the size of the book, but I am hardly encouraged to take up their offer of discounted POD books
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;893204I'm not in the US but I have ordered POD stuff from DTRPG before and shipping costs were more reasonable.
Maybe it's because of the size of the book, but I am hardly encouraged to take up their offer of discounted POD books
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I'm sure it's the size of the book but I don't blame you for passing on it. If it's any consolation, DTRPG is weird when it comes to shipping. I've ordered fairly small, light packages from them before and still been charged quite a bit. I used to order deck boxes from them, and the shipping would cost nearly as much as the boxes themselves.
Exalted has one of its signature characters named Prince Diamond ! That is beautiful thing because when I google "Prince Diamond", it gives me pictures of a Sailor Moon evil character (note that when I google "Prince Diamond exalted", it gives me pictures of the exalted character).
And the cover of Godbound is awesome ! I can wait for the hardcover version !
Also, Ex3 dropped in backer's inboxes, so you should soon be able to purchase it, should you wish to keep talking about its deficiencies;).
Quote from: yabaziou;893236Exalted has one of its signature characters named Prince Diamond ! That is beautiful thing because when I google "Prince Diamond", it gives me pictures of a Sailor Moon evil character (note that when I google "Prince Diamond exalted", it gives me pictures of the exalted character).
And the cover of Godbound is awesome ! I can wait for the hardcover version !
Yeah, good old Prince Diamond. Who has a habit of going into rages and attacking people who miss gender them because they don't know Deneth culture.
While in the Eastern Threshold, thousands of miles from Deneth lands. Where no one could be expected to know better.
Good representation there.
So this character from the culture of the West of Creation where a woman can declare herself a man and enjoys all the perks of being a man, providing they follow some restricting (I am remembering something about not giving birth to any child but I might be wrong there).
The fact that this character has an horrible temper is on part with the other signature characters which WW has taken extra measures to paint at not likeable at all ...
To bad for OPP, Pundit has already put a transgender person on the cover of his AoI !
Quote from: AsenRG;893249Also, Ex3 dropped in backer's inboxes, so you should soon be able to purchase it, should you wish to keep talking about its deficiencies;).
It went live for real yesterday. $65 for standard, $115 for premium. Same as Mage 20
Quote from: Jetstream;893297It went live for real yesterday. $65 for standard, $115 for premium. Same as Mage 20
Well, being a backer makes it kinda cheaper, and being a PDF-only guy makes it even cheaper;).
And yes, I know it went live yesterday, I can see the e-mails. I just hadn't noticed it, and since nobody else had posted about it, I decided it's time to let you know:D!
Quote from: Warboss Squee;893264Yeah, good old Prince Diamond. Who has a habit of going into rages and attacking people who miss gender them because they don't know Deneth culture.
While in the Eastern Threshold, thousands of miles from Deneth lands. Where no one could be expected to know better.
Good representation there.
It wouldn't bug me if the writers hadn't pimped her as so much noble, heroic and together than the other .sigs. If the temper was presented as part of the reason she was a flawed person in a game about flawed beings driven to great and often irrational passions I could see that but presented as the "true hero" of the bunch just makes me wonder what those other assholes are like.
Quote from: Nexus;893328It wouldn't bug me if the writers hadn't pimped her as so much noble, heroic and together than the other .sigs. If the temper was presented as part of the reason she was a flawed person in a game about flawed beings driven to great and often irrational passions I could see that but presented as the "true hero" of the bunch just makes me wonder what those other assholes are like.
For me, it just blows my mind that this mess of a character is meant to be a successful diplomat. Anger management issues don't really work well, when you have to compromise a weapons deal....
Quote from: Christopher Brady;893334For me, it just blows my mind that this mess of a character is meant to be a successful diplomat. Anger management issues don't really work well, when you have to compromise a weapons deal....
Word of advice, don't go to Malfeas and count on Prince Diamond's immunity!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;893334For me, it just blows my mind that this mess of a character is meant to be a successful diplomat. Anger management issues don't really work well, when you have to compromise a weapons deal....
Yep, that's another aspect of the Writer's Darling nature of the character. She's apparently great at a job she seems pretty unsuited for. Maybe the final actual write comes across better.
I didn't know Exalted had a character based on TBP moderator.
Quote from: Glamourweaver;20018198Were there ever any other Morke blog posts going in depth on the new signature characters? I remember the Prince Diamond one and the Perfect Soul one (where we learned the Prince is the unambiguous good guy of the new set, while Perfect Soul is the queen of real-politik, a former Realm collaborator manipulating religious prophesy toward her own ends), but did the other 3 ever get posts?
Gee, and I thought Exalted was too mature, deep and realistically based on Epic classical mythology to have unambiguous good guys.... :rolleyes:
Quote from: Skywalker;893147(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/5kywalker/Godbound_zpscs9wrklw.png)
Oh, that IS good.
JG
Heavy metal album cover good. It just screams epic. Hell I get a Dark Souls vibe and that is always good.
That guy who got his hands on the seat is haunting that throne. You don't get so close and die without lingering as a spirit of some sort. So close! :)
OHT's post makes me realize how freaking huge this throne is ! And hell yeah, at least a dozen spirits haunt it !
This is a good example of why I don't like abstract movement systems.
Quote from: Zeea;20019462I think that would have been helpful, but I did my own little study just now. There's a lot of contradicting stuff, and the whole "shouting distance ends at Medium Range" thing is complicated, but I'm going to go with the lower end estimates for ranges to match the implied vertical distance of jumping charms and the practical ranges of thrown and archery weapons.
Short Range is maybe a couple stories high, or a short charge that still gives you time to attack in a 3-6 second round, so let's go with 5 yards or a little more.
Some brief study suggested that a pilum had an effective range of about 30 yards, and that's a Medium Range throwing weapon, so let's go for that as Medium Range.
Modern longbows have an effective range of 180 meters, and English longbows had a sustained combat effective range of about 180 paces according to Wikipedia. That also fits with our pattern of multiplying things by 6 each increment, so lets go with 180 yards. Conveniently, that's probably beyond practical shouting-in-combat-and-being-understood distance, which fits Exalted's definition.
Extreme range is beyond mortal capability for distance, and the long medieval English longbow target shot was 360 yards or so, according to Wikipedia, so it has to be more than that. Also, Exalted says you can barely see people at this distance. Let's just keep up our multiplier and go with 180x6, then just round it to a nice even 1000 yards.
Now, theoretically, this means someone can run about half a mile 1000 yards in 12 seconds, but rounds are abstract units of time and explicitly longer for some combats. I think the time for two parties to close from extreme to long range is easily covered by "that first round takes longer," and the weirdness of certain rare "move four times in one fight" situations is acceptable in exchange for an abstract combat system.
Anyway! A charm that lets you move 3 range increments per round out of combat? That's multiplying your speed by 36, using our distance rules. So take typical human marching speeds (25 miles per eight hours is apparently a good benchmark expectation) and multiply by 36. That's 900 miles, assuming good conditions. The EX3 map has measurements given, so...yeah. You can move pretty damn fast across that map if you've got an ability that lets you do that. That also feels about right for me for what a supernatural badass should be able to accomplish.
You have to go through hoops like the above to determine more exact measurements when you need them. Of course at least some of that could have been avoided with a chart containing the movement rates for various effects.
They still don't have actual stat block for animals, which is a very serious oversight when two thirds of the Survival Charms are dedicated to enhancing your familiars' Ability ratings.
Also, I do not care whether Diamond wants to be called a man or a woman. I call Diamond a nut. Diamond genuinely believes that she's a guy, on every level including the biological? That's seriously nuts. Diamond thinks of herself as a man, believes she should be a man, and is seeking a way to become a man? That's fine. That's actually pretty cool, and gives a good ongoing plot hook: find someone who can turn her into a guy for a price she's willing to pay. As it stands, Diamond really comes off as a moron.
Quote from: Whitewings;893616They still don't have actual stat block for animals, which is a very serious oversight when two thirds of the Survival Charms are dedicated to enhancing your familiars' Ability ratings.
Also, I do not care whether Diamond wants to be called a man or a woman. I call Diamond a nut. Diamond genuinely believes that she's a guy, on every level including the biological? That's seriously nuts. Diamond thinks of herself as a man, believes she should be a man, and is seeking a way to become a man? That's fine. That's actually pretty cool, and gives a good ongoing plot hook: find someone who can turn her into a guy for a price she's willing to pay. As it stands, Diamond really comes off as a moron.
I hadn't heard that she believes she is physically male but yeah that would definitely be delusional. I do recall of developer discussion Prince Diamond isn't looking for a way to literally transform herself (Transition?) and probably wouldn't be interested if offered the chance.
Quote from: Nexus;893618I hadn't heard that she believes she is physically male but yeah that would definitely be delusional. I do recall of developer discussion Prince Diamond isn't looking for a way to literally transform herself (Transition?) and probably wouldn't be interested if offered the chance.
At the least, Diamond believes that physiology is completely irrelevant to being a guy, which indicates very major cognitive dissonance. No matter how I look at it, Diamond is seriously wrong in the head.
Quote from: Whitewings;893630At the least, Diamond believes that physiology is completely irrelevant to being a guy, which indicates very major cognitive dissonance. No matter how I look at it, Diamond is seriously wrong in the head.
That is an outlook I've seen advocated in the real world in a few circles so I'm not really surprised to see it reflected in an OP/WW product.
I don't understand how they got away with that Dereth thing. Prince Diamond wants to do shit, being a woman she is not allowed to by her sexist culture so she becomes a man. Boom bada bing, transsexuality as internalized misogyny. Do they just ban people who point out how problematically toxic this is or is the rpg.net crowd too stupid to notice such an obvious gloss?
Quote from: Millenium;893644I don't understand how they got away with that Dereth thing. Prince Diamond wants to do shit, being a woman she is not allowed to by her sexist culture so she becomes a man. Boom bada bing, transsexuality as internalized misogyny. Do they just ban people who point out how problematically toxic this is or is the rpg.net crowd too stupid to notice such an obvious gloss?
They did change the custom a bit. Dereth used to have to wear gray veils, male or female (veils being common attire for men in the overall culture. Men should be known and judged by their deeds and standing not their appearance while women wear sheer dresses that show off their bodies. They may wear gauzy veils too) but now I think Dereth either gender have to gray somewhere on their person or this is no dress requirement after all.
Quote from: Millenium;893644I don't understand how they got away with that Dereth thing. Prince Diamond wants to do shit, being a woman she is not allowed to by her sexist culture so she becomes a man. Boom bada bing, transsexuality as internalized misogyny. Do they just ban people who point out how problematically toxic this is or is the rpg.net crowd too stupid to notice such an obvious gloss?
In Diamond's case it's both. She's unsuited by temperament to women's roles, and she's what we'd call transexual. She also blows a gasket when referred to as a woman despite having a woman's face, a woman's form and a woman's voice, and travelling among people with no reason at all to have ever heard of the Dereth custom. How Diamond qualified for the Eclipse Caste is beyond me.
Quote from: Whitewings;893655In Diamond's case it's both. She's unsuited by temperament to women's roles, and she's what we'd call transexual. She also blows a gasket when referred to as a woman despite having a woman's face, a woman's form and a woman's voice, and travelling among people with no reason at all to have ever heard of the Dereth custom. How Diamond qualified for the Eclipse Caste is beyond me.
How Diamond qualified for Exaltation is beyond me.
I don't remember much about the other .sigs. The Dawn is some guy (Valfor?) and has a demonic sword? I think the Zenith is Perfected Soul and she's using religion as part of her quest for power, is/was a Realm collaborator and might be boinking Valfor (thus forming the only het pairing mentioned in the corebook)?
The rest are a blank.
Volfer, Perfect Soul, Shen, Novia Claro, and Prince Diamond are the new sigs. In order.
Quote from: Jetstream;893719Volfer, Perfect Soul, Shen, Novia Claro, and Prince Diamond are the new sigs. In order.
Volfer is an unarmoured fighter with a demonic sword and a talent for getting people honked off. Perfect Soul is the previous ruler of Jiara, now raising rebellion against the Realm, and Volfer's lover. Shen is skilled in medicine, probably a sorceror, and has a beard. Novia Claro is a thief who mostly operates in the Nexus. Prince Diamond has already been discussed. That's everything the core reveals about them. There's a TV Tropes page that includes them, but I have no idea what the contributors' sources are and Novia Claro is still a complete question mark.
Quote from: Whitewings;893723Volfer is an unarmoured fighter with a demonic sword and a talent for getting people honked off. Perfect Soul is the previous ruler of Jiara, now raising rebellion against the Realm, and Volfer's lover. Shen is skilled in medicine, probably a sorceror, and has a beard. Novia Claro is a thief who mostly operates in the Nexus. Prince Diamond has already been discussed. That's everything the core reveals about them. There's a TV Tropes page that includes them, but I have no idea what the contributors' sources are and Novia Claro is still a complete question mark.
Thanks, I didn't pay much attention to them as they most just seemed like "kewler" replacements for the older sigs which I actually liked. But I've tepid to cold about new setting material overall.
Quote from: Whitewings;893616They still don't have actual stat block for animals, which is a very serious oversight when two thirds of the Survival Charms are dedicated to enhancing your familiars' Ability ratings.
Also, I do not care whether Diamond wants to be called a man or a woman. I call Diamond a nut. Diamond genuinely believes that she's a guy, on every level including the biological? That's seriously nuts. Diamond thinks of herself as a man, believes she should be a man, and is seeking a way to become a man? That's fine. That's actually pretty cool, and gives a good ongoing plot hook: find someone who can turn her into a guy for a price she's willing to pay. As it stands, Diamond really comes off as a moron.
What I really don't understand why Diamond hasn't sought to transition to male via magic. If they consider themselves to be a man and hates being referred to as female, there really is no reason for them not to change sex. Changing your physical sex in Creation is a simple affair magically speaking and it shouldn't be too much of a challenge for a Eclipse caste to find someone trustworthy and capable enough to do it.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;893817What I really don't understand why Diamond hasn't sought to transition to male via magic. If they consider themselves to be a man and hates being referred to as female, there really is no reason for them not to change sex. Changing your physical sex in Creation is a simple affair magically speaking and it shouldn't be too much of a challenge for a Eclipse caste to find someone trustworthy and capable enough to do it.
Her culture attaches little if any weight to physical sex when determining gender; its totally social. So she doesn't feel she needs a physical change. She IS a man and is happy with her current physical set up. Ar least that's how I understood the explanation at the time. That was a while ago so it may change by the time we learn more details about the character.
Quote from: Nexus;893818Her culture attaches little if any weight to physical sex when determining gender; its totally social. So she doesn't feel she needs a physical change. She IS a man and is happy with her current physical set up. Ar least that's how I understood the explanation at the time. That was a while ago so it may change by the time we learn more details about the character.
Because totally fleshing out the signature characters worked so well the last time.
I'd rather not have any at all, since the writers tend to assign to much to the sigs. And while yes, you can choose to ignore it, it's kind of hard when it keeps getting referenced, like 2nd did.
Quote from: Nexus;893818Her culture attaches little if any weight to physical sex when determining gender; its totally social. So she doesn't feel she needs a physical change. She IS a man and is happy with her current physical set up. Ar least that's how I understood the explanation at the time. That was a while ago so it may change by the time we learn more details about the character.
I think it's because the dev somehow think that would be "disrespectful" to actual transfolk, having a signature character who's trans and has declined transition because the price was too high and depicting a sex change in Creation as being fairly easy compared to the real world. Basically, so far as I can tell they're tying themselves in knots to avoid "trivializing" a problem which in Creation can be treated relatively trivially compared to the real world.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;893836Because totally fleshing out the signature characters worked so well the last time.
I'd rather not have any at all, since the writers tend to assign to much to the sigs. And while yes, you can choose to ignore it, it's kind of hard when it keeps getting referenced, like 2nd did.
To tell the truth, I liked the core Solar sigs. They were developed enough to be interesting but not worked as integral to the setting. You could take them or leave and their goals, abilities and achievements were noteworthy but overshadowing so they could make good encounters, allies or even antagonists. Yurgen was a noteworthy exception but he seemed more of an example of what a Solar could accomplish in short order and why their return was a big deal.
So of course, he pissed allot of people off but that's another topic.
The later sigs felt less useful and more typical White Wolf style uber NPCs. It felt like a Dragon Blooded sig wasn't finished until they had a few anathema kills under their belts, more than a few one on one. The others I mostly didn't bother with.
I agree about fleshing out this crop likely ending badly because I don't trust the current Devs to reign in their fascination with their cleverness and creativity too keep these guys from becoming Darlings. Describing Diamond as an "unambiguous good guy" when the idea of PCs being one has been scoffed at doesn't bode well, neither does the fiction bloat in this edition.
Quote from: Whitewings;893848I think it's because the dev somehow think that would be "disrespectful" to actual transfolk, having a signature character who's trans and has declined transition because the price was too high and depicting a sex change in Creation as being fairly easy compared to the real world. Basically, so far as I can tell they're tying themselves in knots to avoid "trivializing" a problem which in Creation can be treated relatively trivially compared to the real world.
Yeah, I was giving the in setting reason as I understood it. Out of setting is probably to avoid offending anyone but making it "easy". They may even be right though its hard to tell what people are going to be offended by these days. Paizo's transgender character who found a relatively easy magical GR didn't seem to rise a stink but there were some complaints about items that caused an unwilling and difficult to reverse sex change being called cursed.
Its manly book, I'll give it that.
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/PZI7Ymd.jpg)
I'm in a bit of a pickle. I have one player that really wants to try Ex3. I loathe it, the rest of the groups runs from dislike to disinterested neutrality. But that one player is really eager (even purchased a copy) and he's a good friend so I'd hate to disappoint him...but I don't want wade into the tome.
Quote from: Nexus;894092I'm in a bit of a pickle. I have one player that really wants to try Ex3. I loathe it, the rest of the groups runs from dislike to disinterested neutrality. But that one player is really eager (even purchased a copy) and he's a good friend so I'd hate to disappoint him...but I don't want wade into the tome.
Try it with Heroic Mortals:).
Quote from: Nexus;894092I'm in a bit of a pickle. I have one player that really wants to try Ex3. I loathe it, the rest of the groups runs from dislike to disinterested neutrality. But that one player is really eager (even purchased a copy) and he's a good friend so I'd hate to disappoint him...but I don't want wade into the tome.
Perhaps I can help a bit. I have the PDF, and I have no trouble with going through it. I already am, in fact.
Quote from: AsenRG;894102Try it with Heroic Mortals:).
I have zero interest in playing Exalted without Exalted. AFAIC, that's the point of the game especially playing Solar Exalted (I couldn't care less about the others but allot of people like them). If I want a game about mortals in a grimdark fantasy world there's countless better games for that.
And even in that case I still loathe the system. Its like the Devs somehow learned everything I dislike in rpgs and decided to use most of them just to screw with me on top of using Storyteller, a set of core rules I could only tolerate at best.
I assume you have already discounted it, but you could try using Godbound to run an Exalted game. Everyone keen on Exalted 3e around here was so for a version of Exalted without the past issues, which Ex3 has proven to fail to achieve. GB may scratch both his itch and yours, without the weight that seems to be an issue for you with WW's editions of Exalted.
Quote from: Skywalker;894152I assume you have already discounted it, but you could try using Godbound to run an Exalted game. Everyone keen on Exalted 3e around here was so for a version of Exalted without the past issues, which Ex3 has proven to fail to achieve. GB may scratch both his itch and yours, without the weight that seems to be an issue for you with WW's editions of Exalted.
The bulk is something of an issue but I don't object to crunch. But it feels more like what Christopher Brady referred to as "bloat". And the game is driven by and based on assumptions about the setting and how it should function that I don't share. Like the combat system and the movement system. Baseline load bearing systems that can't really be ripped out or renovated very easily.
Godbound has allot going for it, quite allot. But the player really wants to try the Ex3 system specifically not just play in the Exalted setting (or more precisely our version of it). So using GB wouldn't satisfy him.
Speaking for myself, while GB has some excellent parts in it, I'm not too much of a fan of D and D style rules and it lacks some thing I'd want. Plus using it means allot of conversion work, as would using any other system really but if I'm going to do that I may as well use a game system I'm familiar with and like more.
Quote from: Nexus;894196Godbound has allot going for it, quite allot. But the player really wants to try the Ex3 system specifically not just play in the Exalted setting (or more precisely our version of it). So using GB wouldn't satisfy him.
Cool. There's not much can be done, if the player's desire is specific, other than bite the bullet. Ex3 is mechanically exacting so there is no doing things by halves.
Hopefully, it proves more to be a general desire to play an unbloated Exalted as has been my experience, given how Ex3 actually plays. Then again, if you find Godbound, with all the heavy lifting conversion done, too much effort to convert, then I doubt you will find an alternative system to turn to TBH.
Quote from: Skywalker;894202Cool. There's not much can be done, if the player's desire is specific, other than bite the bullet. Ex3 is mechanically exacting so there is no doing things by halves.
Hopefully, it proves more to be a general desire to play an unbloated Exalted as has been my experience, given how Ex3 actually plays. Then again, if you find Godbound, with all the heavy lifting conversion done, too much effort to convert, then I doubt you will find an alternative system to turn to TBH.
I'm planning using Hero System. I've looked at some of the
conversion and I'd have to learn an entirely new system just to understand them, convert our characters along with adjust for our variant on Creation including allot of custom homebrew material.
I'm much more adept with Hero System so it would be easier for me.
Quote from: Nexus;894205I'm much more adept with Hero System so it would be easier for me.
Given that the idea of using Hero for Exalted is a mountain of effort to me, I am guessing we are talking over an unbridgable gulf here. Sounds like only a conversion at your own hand will match your vision of Creation though. So good luck with Ex3 and/or your Hero conversion. :)
I've run into similar situations with my group and I have to say that, if you've got players who don't like Ex3, then I wouldn't run it if I were in your shoes. I've passed on games that I really wanted to do something with before (or had one or two players really into) for that very reason. Star Wars, The One Ring, and Mutants and Masterminds have all been stopped early or skipped entirely because there were people strongly against playing them. It very rarely ends well if part of the group actively dislikes the game you're playing, and it's even worse if the GM falls in that category, too. The point is for everyone to have fun, and there are enough games out there that you should be able to find something that pleases the whole group.
Quote from: Skywalker;894207Given that the idea of using Hero for Exalted is a mountain of effort to me, I am guessing we are talking over an unbridgable gulf here. Sounds like only a conversion at your own hand will match your vision of Creation though. So good luck with Ex3 and/or your Hero conversion. :)
Yeah, different system click with different people. For me its pretty easy but I see Exalted as a Fantasy/Anime supers game in a world similar to Post Apocalyptic Eternia. The main thing that I found was best to ditch the concept of Charms (ironically something 3rd did for Solars. Sort of). Then an effects based system works pretty well.
Quote from: Nexus;893818Her culture attaches little if any weight to physical sex when determining gender; its totally social. So she doesn't feel she needs a physical change. She IS a man and is happy with her current physical set up. Ar least that's how I understood the explanation at the time. That was a while ago so it may change by the time we learn more details about the character.
Perhaps I'm digging into the Weeds of Ignorance here, but what does it mean to "be a man" in Deneth? What makes Diamond a "man"? Is it being a soldier? Well, then you're a soldier, regardless of your sex. If being a soldier means you're societelly a man, it's a stupid way to break gender lines. Do the women who go into combat roles suddenly become men? Do men who take care of the home become women? No, they're still men and women. They just swapped the terminology for male/female division, but still have division. It's dumb to me.
Denethian society's less about breaking typical gender roles to say, "Hey, we're all equal, sex-wise" and more about hammering LGBTQ+ theory/agenda into a made-up culture and person. Which isn't surprising.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894240Perhaps I'm digging into the Weeds of Ignorance here, but what does it mean to "be a man" in Deneth? What makes Diamond a "man"? Is it being a soldier? Well, then you're a soldier, regardless of your sex. If being a soldier means you're societelly a man, it's a stupid way to break gender lines. Do the women who go into combat roles suddenly become men? Do men who take care of the home become women? No, they're still men and women. They just swapped the terminology for male/female division, but still have division. It's dumb to me.
Denethian society's less about breaking typical gender roles to say, "Hey, we're all equal, sex-wise" and more about hammering LGBTQ+ theory/agenda into a made-up culture and person. Which isn't surprising.
This is going form memory so bear with me. I can't remember what the base culture is called but dereth is a class within the society, a southern group around and in the southern city of Chiaroscuro, But the society over all is highly sexually segregated. Woman don't take up arms, don't perform certain duties, are expected to care for the home and children, etc. Woman have a certain dress code as well and our largely expected to be judged by their appearance and to aspire to be good and desirable wives. Men are the warriors and providers, live by strict and violent honor code and are judged by their deeds, honor and valor.
Men don't take care of the household or act as passive members in a relationship and women don't enter the armed forces or carry a weapon. Unless they chose to become Dereth and take on the opposing gender and its roles. Dereth males wear the sheer gowns, dressed and veils of women, perform the functions of women and can even marry and become wives to men or Dereth men (who dress and act as men including romancing and courting women either born or Dereth). The gender roles are very strict and becoming Dereth or leaving the society entirely are the only ways to escape them. So Dereth aren't necessarily homosexual or what we'd call Transgendered but can individuals that aren't happy with their sex assigned gender role.
So Diamond is a man in her culture because she dresses and acts liker one, carrying weapons, being aggressive and martial, apparently pursuing women lovers (physical women not dereth women). She could be a lesbian that wanted to take on the role of man in her society as well as transgendered. And that could make a bit more sense given the rest of her apparent description.
Whoo, that was long winded. Sorry!
I appreciate your clarification, thank you. That culture makes even less sense to me now, but whatever. It's a magical land with drug-pissing dinosaurs and can be what it wants. The whole subject of Diamond and Deneth and whatever trans agenda there is or isn't, is murky and I dislike the social justice buffonery that clouds so much in gaming now.
Anway...I loved Exalted back in the day, but the more I read about Ex3, the less I feel I'll enjoy it. Waaaaaay to crunchy and unwieldy, especially for a GM. The social aspects of OPP have also soured me. I have a difficult time supporting such complete shitlords.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894247The whole subject of Diamond and Deneth and whatever trans agenda there is or isn't, is murky, to be honest. I loved Exalted back in the day, but the more I read about Ex3, the less I feel I'll enjoy it. Waaaaaay to crunchy and unwieldy, especially for a GM. The social aspect of OPP have also soured me. I have a difficult time supporting such complete shitlords.
You got that right. The entire damn game is murky and between the fans and the writers as amorphous as a fucking Lunar on LSD. It changes constantly based on whatever the current vocal fans think and current Dev team thinks is popular or whatever the rules turn out not to be able to handle.
ST system falls about at high power levels? Oh, it was never about that.
No rules for controlling and ruling large areas? Oh, it never was about Empire building...
Anime not as big anymore? Oh this ain't no stinkin' anime game.
Etc etc.
Its been struggling for identiry and to serve too many master practically since the beginning. Even though I basically despise the current direction I hope it actually sticks to it and stabilizes. But I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: Nexus;894241This is going form memory so bear with me. I can't remember what the base culture is called but dereth is a class within the society, a southern group around and in the southern city of Chiaroscuro, But the society over all is highly sexually segregated. Woman don't take up arms, don't perform certain duties, are expected to care for the home and children, etc. Woman have a certain dress code as well and our largely expected to be judged by their appearance and to aspire to be good and desirable wives. Men are the warriors and providers, live by strict and violent honor code and are judged by their deeds, honor and valor.
Men don't take care of the household or act as passive members in a relationship and women don't enter the armed forces or carry a weapon. Unless they chose to become Dereth and take on the opposing gender and its roles. Dereth males wear the sheer gowns, dressed and veils of women, perform the functions of women and can even marry and become wives to men or Dereth men (who dress and act as men including romancing and courting women either born or Dereth). The gender roles are very strict and becoming Dereth or leaving the society entirely are the only ways to escape them. So Dereth aren't necessarily homosexual or what we'd call Transgendered but can individuals that aren't happy with their sex assigned gender role.
So Diamond is a man in her culture because she dresses and acts liker one, carrying weapons, being aggressive and martial, apparently pursuing women lovers (physical women not dereth women). She could be a lesbian that wanted to take on the role of man in her society as well as transgendered. And that could make a bit more sense given the rest of her apparent description.
Whoo, that was long winded. Sorry!
Well, it's actually a good summary of the
Delzhan society in Ex1 and Ex2. In fact, it's quite concise, unless you mean it's long winded
for a forum post. In which case, you're probably right, but there are different kinds of forum posts:).
Actually, I remember in one of my games there were 3 Delzhani who were unhappy with their gender-imposed role. Two of them had taken the Dereth role, and married (one of them would have been, in modern terms, actually a heterosexual man who simply hated violence so much, he'd decided that costum change and make-up are preferable - but he was, in all likelihood, the most faithful wife in Chiaroscuro, which was a minor plot point).
The third one had a legalistic mind, and liked most elements of her society-expected role. She thus decided that the problem was in her being Delzhan - since foreigners are allowed to flaunt those rules (as long as they're not being obnoxious about it).
A PC managed to solve two issues with one move by making an aging Patrician adopt her. He needed a scion;). With that, her family proclaimed her dead, but she didn't exactly care. And, with a new identity and all her old skills and knowledge about Chiaroscuro, she was an almost invaluable addition to the House's business in Chiaroscuro! She also got to wear a weapon, had a multitude of lovers, and paid off her debt to the PC by being an intermediary when asked.
So, this is actually a part of the setting I approve. You can get quite a bit of mileage out of it.
The specific example of Prince Diamond is, however, an NPC I don't really like. The writers have a few more books to try and sway me in the other direction, of course. Then I'll cast him in a role they wouldn't like, and count on the PCs to remove another Solar from the setting:p!
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894247I appreciate your clarification, thank you. That culture makes even less sense to me now, but whatever.
There are actually parallels to existing cultures, so I'm not sure what is there to understand. If you think people in Chiaroscuro think differently, yes they do. It would be kinda weird if they didn't, since after all, they are living in a magical land with shapeshifters, ancestor spirits, and people that are walking flamethrowers:D!
But the difference, to them, is that they consider social role an inseparable part of gender. The opposite is also true: you are what you do.
That's all, as far as the Dereth are concerned;).
I totally dig the feel of games which have demigodlings doing demigodling things, which is why, despite not being a previous user of OSR stuff, I'm looking at Godbound. Kevin's also a very talented and nice person, from what I've seen, which matters to me. As a fan of the Cypher System I'm eagerly awaiting the God's of the Fall book. That may scratch my itch, even if it doesn't have the mechanic oomph some crave.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894252I totally dig the feel of games which have demigodlings doing demigodling things, which is why, despite not being a previous user of OSR stuff, I'm looking at Godbound. Kevin's also a very talented and nice person, from what I've seen, which matters to me. As a fan of the Cypher System I'm eagerly awaiting the God's of the Fall book. That may scratch my itch, even if it doesn't have the mechanic oomph some crave.
If I was into OSR stuff I'd be on Godbound like white on rice.
Quote from: Nexus;894255If I was into OSR stuff I'd be on Godbound like white on rice.
From what little I know of OSR and the bits I've read of Godbound, it seems like it does "Exaltedy" stuff very well.
Quote from: Nexus;894255If I was into OSR stuff I'd be on Godbound like white on rice.
I've removed the Godbound "powers system" and the domain management rules, and am using them for Exalted with the core Ex3 system. No need to bother with OSR mechanics if you don't like them, you can hack them on top of any system you like:)!
I admit I'm translating them on the fly, and so far most of them haven't come up, but whatever has appeared hasn't been a problem;)!
Quote from: Skywalker;894207Given that the idea of using Hero for Exalted is a mountain of effort to me, I am guessing we are talking over an unbridgable gulf here. Sounds like only a conversion at your own hand will match your vision of Creation though. So good luck with Ex3 and/or your Hero conversion. :)
Basically Hero System is what you use when Exalted takes too much bookkeeping and math. :D
JG
My biggest question about Ex3: Can you run it with little bookkeeping, such as running Exalted/other supernatural NPCs? I'm not just speaking of managing them in combat, but also designing them on-the-fly. This is probably my biggest hurdle.
With over 700 charms which doesn't count martial arts and sorcery you tell me?
Quote from: Snowman0147;894275With over 700 charms which doesn't count martial arts and sorcery you tell me?
My buddy compared NPC creation/use to FFG's Star Wars (which I love running), however your reply makes me assume the GM needs to use the same level of detail as the players when dealing with Charms and the like. Hmmm...unless they're easy to use (not a lot of rules-exception and bookkeeping) and can be cherry-picked without snapping balance and utility in half, then I think I'll pass.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894268My biggest question about Ex3: Can you run it with little bookkeeping, such as running Exalted/other supernatural NPCs? I'm not just speaking of managing them in combat, but also designing them on-the-fly. This is probably my biggest hurdle.
I can, and so can you:).
Listen, there is a grand total of THREE rules about NPC-creation-on-the-fly, and those are rules which I'm sure you know. I'm not sure why many people have trouble applying it to Exalted, but some do.
Just in case someone is reading this and wondering what those rules are:
- Don't bother with intermediary scores, go to the end ones. You should use the ranges available to PCs unless there's a good reason.
- Don't bother with intermediary abilities, go to the end-level Comboes. You can use some Charms as a basis if it's a Martial Arts combo, but feel free to combine it.
- Don't bother whether the cost is 14 or 15 motes, just give them costs as in "how many times per fight". Major effects are probably once per fight.
Done!
It's even by the rules in this edition, because Charms aren't the same thing for everyone. (My compromise is actually "MA Charms are the same except for Mastery, other Charms are similar, but might have different effect depending on user". It still means the above is RAW).
Want a Sidereal assassin? First time he's found, he rolls "I was never there" Charm. If that succeeds, he will be back, but you didn't corner him now;). First time he's hit with a Decisive, Grapple Gambit, or similar, he uses his Perfect (once per fight). It's combined with a jump away.
If he manages to establish surprise, he uses his twice per fight ability to unleash Rain of Copper Needles (TN4, 9 dice with specialty, poison).
The rest of the time he fights as with 15 dice, don't bother stunting, and has a Defence Value of 9 or 10, depending on how happy you're with your own stunt. Twice per fight, if you miss by 2 or more, he can counterattack immediately, out of turn, using either a Withering attack or a Grapple gambit.
Done, took me 3 minutes to come up with the stats, most of them spent to think of the name for his attack:D!
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894286My buddy compared NPC creation/use to FFG's Star Wars (which I love running), however your reply makes me assume the GM needs to use the same level of detail as the players when dealing with Charms and the like. Hmmm...unless they're easy to use (not a lot of rules-exception and bookkeeping) and can be cherry-picked without snapping balance and utility in half, then I think I'll pass.
I haven't read it in depth enough to give a firm opinion. I will say this, however: Snowman comes from a place of massive bias agains pretty much everything OPP creates. Grain of salt, wait for more opinions :P
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894286My buddy compared NPC creation/use to FFG's Star Wars (which I love running), however your reply makes me assume the GM needs to use the same level of detail as the players when dealing with Charms and the like. Hmmm...unless they're easy to use (not a lot of rules-exception and bookkeeping) and can be cherry-picked without snapping balance and utility in half, then I think I'll pass.
It is an exception driven system. All the Charms and other powers are essentially mini rule packets that work somewhat differently from each other. There are Quick Characters that are somewhat simplified but opinions on their utility varies and they have powers too just fewer of them and GM should have at least a rough idea of what the PCs abilities can do which can means few dozen for a typical group.
There are several subsystem involved with running the game. The most complicated, IMO, are combat which can involve tracking a few different pools, a shifting initiative track (round to round) and the effects of two different types of attacks (withering and decisive). I found it complicated to work with when I tried and as much of a slog as 2ed. Crafting items is a mini game in and of itself. There's already been a couple of rewrites for it published.
So, IMO, after looking it over and working with it (admittedly an earlier version) it seems extremely bloated and complex for little gain.
Quote from: AsenRG;894304I can, and so can you:).
Listen, there is a grand total of THREE rules about NPC-creation-on-the-fly, and those are rules which I'm sure you know. I'm not sure why many people have trouble applying it to Exalted, but some do.
Just in case someone is reading this and wondering what those rules are:
- Don't bother with intermediary scores, go to the end ones. You should use the ranges available to PCs unless there's a good reason.
- Don't bother with intermediary abilities, go to the end-level Comboes. You can use some Charms as a basis if it's a Martial Arts combo, but feel free to combine it.
- Don't bother whether the cost is 14 or 15 motes, just give them costs as in "how many times per fight". Major effects are probably once per fight.
Done!
It's even by the rules in this edition, because Charms aren't the same thing for everyone. (My compromise is actually "MA Charms are the same except for Mastery, other Charms are similar, but might have different effect depending on user". It still means the above is RAW).
Want a Sidereal assassin? First time he's found, he rolls "I was never there" Charm. If that succeeds, he will be back, but you didn't corner him now;). First time he's hit with a Decisive, Grapple Gambit, or similar, he uses his Perfect (once per fight). It's combined with a jump away.
If he manages to establish surprise, he uses his twice per fight ability to unleash Rain of Copper Needles (TN4, 9 dice with specialty, poison).
The rest of the time he fights as with 15 dice, don't bother stunting, and has a Defence Value of 9 or 10, depending on how happy you're with your own stunt. Twice per fight, if you miss by 2 or more, he can counterattack immediately, out of turn, using either a Withering attack or a Grapple gambit.
Done, took me 3 minutes to come up with the stats, most of them spent to think of the name for his attack:D!
Hmmm...good sell. I'm
really trying to get over my "Rich and Friends are Complete Tool-wrappers" (they're aren't tools. Tools are useful. The wrappers they came in are not), and their incestuous relationship with TBP, but that's my hurdle. :)
As far as the rules, I may be able to rekindle my wide-eyed joy for Exalted, which gave me many incredible games. For all its warts, it was fucking amazing when it came out and we absolutely loved it. Ex2 killed it for us, but the third time may actually be the Charm.
Pun very much intended. ;)
Quote from: Jetstream;894340I haven't read it in depth enough to give a firm opinion. I will say this, however: Snowman comes from a place of massive bias agains pretty much everything OPP creates. Grain of salt, wait for more opinions :P
I don't begrudge his vitriol, it's well-founded.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894348Hmmm...good sell. I'm really trying to get over my "Rich and Friends are Complete Tool-wrappers" (they're aren't tools. Tools are useful. The wrappers they came in are not), and their incestuous relationship with TBP, but that's my hurdle. :)
As far as the rules, I may be able to rekindle my wide-eyed joy for Exalted, which gave me many incredible games. For all its warts, it was fucking amazing when it came out and we absolutely loved it. Ex2 killed it for us, but the third time may actually be the Charm.
Pun very much intended. ;)
Oh, I'm not trying to sell anyone on Ex3, I don't know enough about your preferences to be able to make an educated guess whether you're going to like it:). Just discussing what is and what isn't possible with the ruleset, and as it happens, that's the Ex3 thread on this site.
Of course, if my arguments help you to find the game more useful, I think that's a win-win for everyone;).
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894349I don't begrudge his vitriol, it's well-founded.
It's also unhelpful to people who want information about a game because whether they've earned it or not, it's still irrational.
I didn't think you were trying to sell me on it. It was just a good pitch, probably because you weren't trying to. :)
I'll give it a read, see what I think and so on. In the end it's no sweat if it sucks. I have a ton of great games to play.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894363I didn't think you were trying to sell me on it. It was just a good pitch, probably because you weren't trying to. :)
I'll give it a read, see what I think and so on. In the end it's no sweat if it sucks. I have a ton of great games to play.
Good luck. Like most things Exalted opinion varies widely and wildly from greatest thing since sliced bread and butter to Worst Game Ever. :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894363I didn't think you were trying to sell me on it. It was just a good pitch, probably because you weren't trying to. :)
I'll give it a read, see what I think and so on. In the end it's no sweat if it sucks. I have a ton of great games to play.
I wish you good luck.
Quote from: Jetstream;894362It's also unhelpful to people who want information about a game because whether they've earned it or not, it's still irrational.
What is ill rational? The guy who hates a company that treats paying customers like shit, or a paying customer who defends a company that treats him like shit?
The game engine is functional. I'd say its proven more functional so far than 2nd. But then again, everyone thought 2ed was wonderful for months before the cracks started to show. And there was no shortage of denial even after they did. Some issues have started to show such as there being no set way to handle Counterattacks and some charms that create them don't explain how they do so or do it in a dubious manner.
Well, thanks to everyone for the information and advice and congratulations to those who backed it and finally got their game. :D
Quote from: Snowman0147;894377What is ill rational? The guy who hates a company that treats paying customers like shit, or a paying customer who defends a company that treats him like shit?
What's irrational is thinking that a company cares or did care about individual customers. Or even their entire customer base passed how much money they get from them.
They do not care, they will not.
A company exists for one purpose: To make money. And they do that by offering a service or a product. It would be nice if said product is good and enjoyable, but often it's just enough to get the people to buy it and pay their paychecks and bills.
What's irrational is how some groups of people give enough assumed good will that some companies can coast on it (In the Video Game world, Valve Software and Bethesda Softworks are prime examples Companies that practically shit on their customers and everyone still loves them for making a certain type of game.)
So both of Snowman and Jetstream are irrational, because they are under the impression that they actually matter to OPP in some fashion. They never did.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894252As a fan of the Cypher System I'm eagerly awaiting the God's of the Fall book.
That makes two of us. I'm really curious about how they deal with a divine-level game with the Cypher System rules.
Also, #teamgodbound :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894286My buddy compared NPC creation/use to FFG's Star Wars (which I love running), however your reply makes me assume the GM needs to use the same level of detail as the players when dealing with Charms and the like. Hmmm...unless they're easy to use (not a lot of rules-exception and bookkeeping) and can be cherry-picked without snapping balance and utility in half, then I think I'll pass.
Not a fan of Ex3, but they did improve the NPC creation rules. Exalts NPC in the book have more compact stat blocks and only a few custom powers. In that regard yes, it's like your friend said, more akin to FFG's Star Wars than Ex2, so a lot less painful to GM than the previous edition.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;894403T
Not a fan of Ex3, but they did improve the NPC creation rules. Exalts NPC in the book have more compact stat blocks and only a few custom powers. In that regard yes, it's like your friend said, more akin to FFG's Star Wars than Ex2, so a lot less painful to GM than the previous edition.
I've heard the animal stat blocks are wonky especially if you try to reverse engineer their full sheets as you can some really outrageous values. I'm curious how this is going to effect Lunars.
I said treat. I didn't say care. They don't mean the same thing.
A example would be a restaurant. A fat person walks in and as a paying customer politely orders a steak dinner. To treat the customer right the waiter would do the order. If the waiter cared about the customer he would try to convince the customer to get a healthier meal, or to leave. Yes in this case caring would mean you might lose a customer.
However on that same token if the waiter treats a customer like shit than the customer should be angry. Especially if he paid for the restaurant's services.
TL;DR Version: No kidding OPP doesn't care about me. You don't need to tell me about it. I just want people to not buy their products because of their shitty service.
Quote from: Snowman0147;894377What is ill rational? The guy who hates a company that treats paying customers like shit, or a paying customer who defends a company that treats him like shit?
I've never been treated poorly. You, on the other hand, are free to hate whomever you want. That said, when you say shit that's unsupported by anything factual, I'm gonna call it out.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;894394So both of Snowman and Jetstream are irrational, because they are under the impression that they actually matter to OPP in some fashion. They never did.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't ascribe motivations to me that I haven't expressed or insinuated. I don't care about OPP in particular. I care about people being given the proper answers to their questions and given the tools necessary to make informed decisions.
I don't think Exalted 3e is amazing. I've got some serious issues with it. But it's not Satan either. I object to Snowman's posts because they suggest that his entire opinion is based entirely upon his distaste for the company, not on actual knowledge of the product.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;894403That makes two of us. I'm really curious about how they deal with a divine-level game with the Cypher System rules.
Do you have the Cypher System book? If so, the power shifts from that manifested in GotF as "divine shifts". If you
don't have it, shifts are basically permanent, free levels of Effort. You get 3, I think, at Tier 2 in GotF, then another each Tier. There are also some other divine widgets, but I don't know what they are.
I don't think it'll be at the uber-mega-sexy-fantastic levels of Godbound or Ex3, but as a GM I love the Cypher System, so I'm looking closely at it. I also like the setting. :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894424Do you have the Cypher System book? If so, the power shifts from that manifested in GotF as "divine shifts". If you don't have it, shifts are basically permanent, free levels of Effort. You get 3, I think, at Tier 2 in GotF, then another each Tier. There are also some other divine widgets, but I don't know what they are.
I don't think it'll be at the uber-mega-sexy-fantastic levels of Godbound or Ex3, but as a GM I love the Cypher System, so I'm looking closely at it. I also like the setting. :)
Yes, I own the Cypher System book (awesome book). Divine Shifts sounds like a clever mechanic to represent the many things a demigod or divinity should be able to accomplish with ease. I hope we get a more complete list than the one we got in the Cypher System book with many options for divine shifts based on domain or something like that.
As for power level compared to GB or Ex, you are probably right, althogh the book's cover looks pretty epic so who knows.
I can't wait to get my nerdy hands on that book.:D
Quote from: Maese Mateo;894432Yes, I own the Cypher System book (awesome book). Divine Shifts sounds like a clever mechanic to represent the many things a demigod or divinity should be able to accomplish with ease. I hope we get a more complete list than the one we got in the Cypher System book with many options for divine shifts based on domain or something like that.
As for power level compared to GB or Ex, you are probably right, althogh the book's cover looks pretty epic so who knows.
I can't wait to get my nerdy hands on that book.:D
One thing I learned was that your role has something to do with your divinity (at least, I took it that way). As far as power level, I'm fine if it's not on par with the other two, as long as it feels divine.
We need to discuss it once we have it. :)
Quote from: Snowman0147;894410TL;DR Version: No kidding OPP doesn't care about me. You don't need to tell me about it. I just want people to not buy their products because of their shitty service.
And again I feel the need to say the arseholes who worked on Ex3 aren't OPP, they're just one of their cells. I know people working on other teams who aren't involved with Exalted, who are perfectly decent people, writing good stuff.
Quote from: Kiero;894498And again I feel the need to say the arseholes who worked on Ex3 aren't OPP, they're just one of their cells. I know people working on other teams who aren't involved with Exalted, who are perfectly decent people, writing good stuff.
That's certainly correct. Neal, for example, is a very nice dude and very open with his development of the new engine for Scion.
My problem is that the big boss of OPP (Rich T) is an asshat as well...easily on par with the Ex3 Devs. So i am extremely reluctant to give OPP any of my money.
A TBP poster (Roadie) has been working on some clarification and expansions for 3rd Edition. Here's a link to the pdf
https://mega.nz/#!7NoQHIaS!zwhZpFERnnY1qT_mrvqOra3TDVbgAia9_ZZ9sMfU5GQ
It amusing to see how the system was "rebuilt from the ground up" and such but now that some people are saying its not worth the effort to learn its "not that different at all" from 2ed...
Quote from: Anglachel;894510That's certainly correct. Neal, for example, is a very nice dude and very open with his development of the new engine for Scion.
Yes, the new Scion team leaves me with a positive impression. Though I'm not sure whether I'm going to back their KS.
Ultimately, this will depend on whether they decide to clean up the BS in the setting:). It's actually almost a worse failure in that regard!
IMO, the only reason few people commented on the setting in the first edition because the system was the first thing they noticed, and the harder one to rectify;). And of course, once you know you're not going to use the game, what's the point to keep explaining why it sucks?
Quote from: Anglachel;894510That's certainly correct. Neal, for example, is a very nice dude and very open with his development of the new engine for Scion.
My problem is that the big boss of OPP (Rich T) is an asshat as well...easily on par with the Ex3 Devs. So i am extremely reluctant to give OPP any of my money.
Ian's a class act too, and is being similar with the Aeon stuff, though I think he's got less time to post on forums 'cuz he does other shite.
Quote from: AsenRG;894538Yes, the new Scion team leaves me with a positive impression. Though I'm not sure whether I'm going to back their KS.
Ultimately, this will depend on whether they decide to clean up the BS in the setting:). It's actually almost a worse failure in that regard!
IMO, the only reason few people commented on the setting in the first edition because the system was the first thing they noticed, and the harder one to rectify;). And of course, once you know you're not going to use the game, what's the point to keep explaining why it sucks?
There were so, so, so many issues with Scion, but yes, many more beyond just the broken system..
For me, that first corebook "Hero" stands as one of the worst RPG products I've ever purchased. Well over 100+ pages are dedicated to a rail road adventure where players aren't even allowed to make their own characters!!! You have to use the characters they give you in the core book...and you can't deviate from the story at all because it "Continues" in the other two books...
So of course, with half the book taken up by a shitty railroad story, and the rest by broken mechanics, there was zero advice on how to actually run games yourself. We knew the Titans were bad, but were given no explanation of who they were and what their goals are..imagine that, imagine you're given a Superhero setting that talks up "The League of Evil" as being bad, but never tells you about any of the individual members or what their goals are.... Instead, for game advice it says "Go read comic books!"
Because that's what Scion did, for game idea advice it said "Go read Myths!"
Quote from: Orphan81;894575There were so, so, so many issues with Scion, but yes, many more beyond just the broken system..
For me, that first corebook "Hero" stands as one of the worst RPG products I've ever purchased. Well over 100+ pages are dedicated to a rail road adventure where players aren't even allowed to make their own characters!!! You have to use the characters they give you in the core book...and you can't deviate from the story at all because it "Continues" in the other two books...
So of course, with half the book taken up by a shitty railroad story, and the rest by broken mechanics, there was zero advice on how to actually run games yourself. We knew the Titans were bad, but were given no explanation of who they were and what their goals are..imagine that, imagine you're given a Superhero setting that talks up "The League of Evil" as being bad, but never tells you about any of the individual members or what their goals are.... Instead, for game advice it says "Go read comic books!"
Because that's what Scion did, for game idea advice it said "Go read Myths!"
I don't need to imagine anything. I own it, though no way am I going to re-download it just to comment how bad it is:).
And of course, I still maintain that there's nothing wrong with not giving GM advice if you assume the book is only for people that have run a game. That's true for Ex3, for example.
But combininig lack of GMing section with scores of pages on an adventure is weird. And the advice given is actually counter-productive, because if you've actually read myths, or start reading them because of this advice? Then you're more prone to notice what a hackjob Scion has made out of them, thus making you less likely to ever run it;)!
OTOH, this means the current Scion team have a low bar to clear if they merely want to improve the game a lot:D! Making a game worth reading out of this legacy is the real challenge.
Ex3 could have used some GM advice regardless as its focus and direction have changed so much even if you run it before some advice may be needed. As several people have suggested and asked on other discussion threads. And assuming that you're only going to get some of your old fans back seems like a pretty cynical policy for a new edition.
Quote from: Nexus;894607Ex3 could have used some GM advice regardless as its focus and direction have changed so much even if you run it before some advice may be needed. As several people have suggested and asked on other discussion threads. And assuming that you're only going to get some of your old fans back seems like a pretty cynical policy for a new edition.
At least with Exalted though, there's enough setting info you can figure a few things out. The Dragonblooded are hunting down the Exalted, and they give you enough world information to make up your own stuff.
Scion gave zero world information. Like I said, the "Titans" are the bad guys... only they don't talk about them in any capacity in the book. They give like 8 NPC write ups that are random monsters, like Biker Centaurs... but at the end of the day, you have no idea what Scions are suppose to do. As a GM I didn't know what types of adventures I was suppose to run, I didn't even know who the bad guys were...
But oh man, I had a 120 page railroad adventure I could use with pre-made characters my players would be FORCED to use... and oh yeah, the bad guys in that Adventure? Not Titans...other Scions..
Quote from: Orphan81;894629At least with Exalted though, there's enough setting info you can figure a few things out. The Dragonblooded are hunting down the Exalted, and they give you enough world information to make up your own stuff.
Scion gave zero world information. Like I said, the "Titans" are the bad guys... only they don't talk about them in any capacity in the book. They give like 8 NPC write ups that are random monsters, like Biker Centaurs... but at the end of the day, you have no idea what Scions are suppose to do. As a GM I didn't know what types of adventures I was suppose to run, I didn't even know who the bad guys were...
But oh man, I had a 120 page railroad adventure I could use with pre-made characters my players would be FORCED to use... and oh yeah, the bad guys in that Adventure? Not Titans...other Scions..
Oh I have Scion (all three books). Its an an interesting premise poorly implemented no doubt and explain even worse.
I was countering the suggestion that Ex3 didn't really need any gming section because people had played it before. Ex3 needs some advice about what its "defaults" assumptions are, how to handle the alleged political slant it has like what how do Bronze age imperial governments and civilizations works regarding things like politics and war. How to handle the character's alleged high levels of power. The subtle suggestion that if you don't know these things already or aren't willing to take on college level study to learn them perhaps you shouldn't be playing the game is just screwed up.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894463We need to discuss it once we have it. :)
Definitely!
Quote from: Nexus;894607Ex3 could have used some GM advice regardless as its focus and direction have changed so much even if you run it before some advice may be needed. As several people have suggested and asked on other discussion threads. And assuming that you're only going to get some of your old fans back seems like a pretty cynical policy for a new edition.
Opinions, however, vary:).
And personally, I think the Storyteller Advice in Ex2 would have been better if it contained some very simple advice. "React as any Referee should. Say what honesty demands when accounting for what you have decided about the world already. Don't pre-plan what's going to happen, pre-plan what NPCs do. Go with the flow. When you don't see how opposition could prevent the PCs from achieving a goal, ask yourself about the possible consequences - including the unintended ones. Remember that sufficient numbers always trump power. Remember that an Exalt, any Exalt, can achieve anything, but the price might make them stop in their tracks. Remember that conquering is a matter of power, organizing an administration afterwards takes compromise, dealing with the people of influence. Remember that the easy way is always also the one that makes you question your PC's humanity".
There, you have it now;). Nobody can teach you how to react in each particular situation in Exalted, not anymore than you can write the same kind of book for D&D, and the principles don't change because of power level.
Quote from: Orphan81;894629At least with Exalted though, there's enough setting info you can figure a few things out. The Dragonblooded are hunting down the Exalted, and they give you enough world information to make up your own stuff.
Scion gave zero world information. Like I said, the "Titans" are the bad guys... only they don't talk about them in any capacity in the book. They give like 8 NPC write ups that are random monsters, like Biker Centaurs... but at the end of the day, you have no idea what Scions are suppose to do. As a GM I didn't know what types of adventures I was suppose to run, I didn't even know who the bad guys were...
But oh man, I had a 120 page railroad adventure I could use with pre-made characters my players would be FORCED to use... and oh yeah, the bad guys in that Adventure? Not Titans...other Scions..
Yeah, the only person who believed this to be a good idea was a friend of mine. But what he said is, quote, "given the hackjob of presenting the pantheons, I'm glad the same people didn't write more about what people across the word believe", unquote. Not exactly the level of praise they would have expected, I suspect:D!
On a slightly off topic note, I was looking up Palladium books on wikipedia. I see Onyx Path isn't the only group to piss of fans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_Books#Robotech_RPG_Tactics
QuotePalladium Books and Kevin Siembieda continue to receive criticism regarding the handling of Robotech RPG Tactics after a successful Kickstarter campaign raising $1,442,312 from 5,342 backers, ending on May 20, 2013.[10] During the campaign, Palladium specified an intended release date of Robotech RPG Tactics as early as 2013 Holiday Season. Shortly before expected release, Palladium Books shifted the projection to Spring/Summer of 2014; later the date was shifted again, to late Summer/Autumn 2014 with international backers several months after. Kevin Siembieda and Palladium Books attributed these shifting dates to a number of unforeseen issues including Chinese New Year causing production to start later than expected.
On September 25, 2013, Update #113 echoed the intention of a holiday release and promised Kickstarter backers receipt of product prior to retail distribution.[11] This was followed by an update in November 2013 listing several unforeseen issues holding up production and further delay.[12] On September 8, 2014 several Kickstarter backers indicated receipt of their copies of the game, while the remainder of rewards were awaiting delivery from China via cargo ship. There were six cargo ships containing backer rewards, as indicated in Update #156 to Kickstarter backers. This same update also provided some clarification on delivery schedules, and outlined Palladium Book's 'two wave' product release schedule designed to offset additional delay in providing promised products. Some backers perceived the update implied the second wave of items were nearing production. Citing no specific dates however, Palladium estimated mid to late October 2014 as the general time Kick Starter rewards would be available for delivery to backers.
On July 14, 2014 Palladium Books issued a plea to backers seeking permission to sell any available copies of Robotech RPG Tactics to attendees of Gen Con 2014, a perceived divergence from an earlier promise to make copies unavailable to the public until backer rewards were fully delivered. Kevin Siembieda wrote:
"...I announced we are planning to bring some Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product to sell. A few hundred of six items: the main box game, four of the expansion packs (Tomahawk/Defender Destroids, Regult Battlepods, Artillery Battlepods, and Glaug Command) and the rule book. That would mean a few hundred people will get these items before most of the 5,200+ Kickstarter backers...I implore you to say “yes.” Please give us your permission. We believe it would be disastrous not to have the small selection of items I've listed available for sale. Not having them will hurt the launch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Palladium Books...Anyone who does NOT respond by July 21st [2014], we will consider to be a “yes".[13]
Ultimately, the survey showed overwhelming support for allowing the sale with a majority of supporting votes coming from non-participatory backers. Several days before Gen Con, Palladium Books received word the shipping containers containing Robotech RPG Tactics had been tagged for inspection by US Customs subsequently blocking any opportunity to take the game to Gen Con and further delaying shipment to backers, projected at the time to early to mid-September 2014 for US residents.
International backers had not received their backer rewards prior to April 2015 nor had report of backer rewards shipping outside of the US been made my Palladium Books, despite reports of Robotech RPG Tactics boxed-sets appearing in shops outside the United States. International backers receiving items mid April 2015.
At Gen Con 2014, an attendee received one unopened core box game used for display at Gen Con and recorded an unboxing video of Robotech RPG Tactics to allow backers to see the final production quality.[14] Subsequently, many fans expressed concern over several production oversights and issues. Notably, included game pieces were missing paint, paper materials used to play the game were missing altogether from all units shipped, game pieces contained manufacturing errors such as injection mold seams and pitted surfaces, and assembly instructions were vague or inaccurate with context to materials shown to backers throughout the Kickstarter Campaign.
In Update #154 to Kickstarter backers, Palladium books issued a brief apology to backers and fans, "Oh, and we only recently realized that the plastic blast template is not painted, and it is too late to do anything about it now. This detail slipped past all of us – Palladium, Ninja Division, the factory, everyone. Sorry. It still looks great, is a quality piece of plastic and is easy to use.".[15]
Printed materials missing from initial backer rewards were later released in low resolution watermarked PDF format on the website DriveThru RPG for backers to print copies along with updated assembly instructions to all game pieces requiring assembly, free of charge.[16]
In September 2015 several backers openly discussed filing complaint with the Attorney General and Better Business Bureau in Michigan, with claims of filing becoming more public in December 2015 during speculative discussions from Siembada's comments regarding the game.[17]
Palladium Books made few statements regarding Robotech RPG Tactics through 2015, particularly regarding specific release dates. However, in January 2016 Kevin released a statement on the KickStarter project page remaining silent regarding the second portion of backer rewards:
″...As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on. As you know, one of the things we have been doing is looking into and considering possible ways to reduce part counts and make the game pieces easier to put together. As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you. And we think you’ll be pleased. Considering all the delays and frustration of the past, we do not want to even speculate on release dates and other details until we have hard, solid information we are confident with ourselves.″[18][19]
As of February 2016, only 176 backers of over 5000 have claimed receipt of their full backer rewards and more than 1000 days have passed since the initial Kickstarter project ended. Currently the Better Business Bureau has 14 complaints directed toward Palladium Books from July 2014 through February 2016, one of which is a complaint with no response
Quote from: Nexus;894632Oh I have Scion (all three books). Its an an interesting premise poorly implemented no doubt and explain even worse.
Isn't this the case with all the White Wolf games?
Quote from: Iron_Rain;894872On a slightly off topic note, I was looking up Palladium books on wikipedia. I see Onyx Path isn't the only group to piss of fans.
Palladium's been a byword for delays for decades. Mechanoid Space has been "Coming Soon" for what,
twenty years? I think it's even been available for pre-order at some point.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;894957Isn't this the case with all the White Wolf games?
To varying degrees, yes, but that's a different rant :D
Quote from: The Butcher;894961Palladium's been a byword for delays for decades. Mechanoid Space has been "Coming Soon" for what, twenty years? I think it's even been available for pre-order at some point.
I remember Mechanoid Space being "in progress" when I was in my first year of high school, and this is the year of my 25th reunion. What's crazy to me is that Kevin hasn't just said, "You know, fuck it, it's never coming."
At least, he did not take some money for some vaporware that it is likely to be released the day following the relase of Far West (unless there were some pre-purchase of it ...). And last time I check, the Robotech KS was not in good shape (Iron rain's post confirms its dire state ...) ...
Quote from: Future Villain Band;895662I remember Mechanoid Space being "in progress" when I was in my first year of high school, and this is the year of my 25th reunion. What's crazy to me is that Kevin hasn't just said, "You know, fuck it, it's never coming."
Because Kevin is essentially one of those DMs with a closet full of half-written setting material that he plans to get to someday, who also happens to be owner of an actual game publishing company. :D
JG
Reposted from TBP. Not my work but could be useful to anyone interested in the game.
Quote from: Irked;20031788I posted these on the OPP forums a while back. They're based off the backer release, not the final, but the mechanical differences are pretty slim.
This (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwZiXCIz14oCSUQ0OW40ZnUzM2s/view?usp=sharing) is a list of generic rules clarifications, new keywords, etc. It includes similar clarifications to those in Roadie's document (how do counterattacks work, how do you clash a multiattack, etc.), though I resolve some of 'em differently. The latter two documents borrow verbiage and keywords from this one.
This (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwZiXCIz14oCUldna29zZXNpaU0) is a complete rewrite of the Ex3 Solar Charm set for mechanical clarity. In the vast majority of cases the effects of the Charms are the same, just... less ambiguous; where I've changed the effects in some way (i.e., by adding a new keyword, choosing one of several possible interpretations, or - in a few cases - reworking its effect), I've added the tag "MODIFIED." The only area to be heavily changed is Craft, but a handful of specific effects (i.e., God King's Shrike) got tweaked as well. (The Craft changes are significant, but spelled out in the first document above.)
I've also tagged some Charms as "OPTIONAL" or "REMOVED." In my games, a player who has the prerequisites for an Optional Charm may ignore that Charm in any other effect's prerequisites. He may also purchase it as normal. A player who has the prereqs for a Removed Charm may ignore it in other prereq chains in the same way, but cannot purchase it. These tags have no effect beyond my own games and can be ignored.
This (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwZiXCIz14oCYlhwV1dEOWdmVVE) is an updating of the 2e Lunar set to 3e rules. It is specifically not a reimagining of the Lunar set, or a Terrifying Argent Witches-style ground-up rebuild; it's just a straight port to 3e logic for someone interested in playing a Lunar or running one as an NPC.
(I'm also very, very interested in feedback on any of these.)
So I'm settled on using Qwixalted rather than the monstrous rulebook. My only problem is that I don't have any rules for liminals, exigents or the other new splats. It's not a big problem, but it's nice to have options. Anyone have suggestions for quick and dirty rules?
Does anyone else find themselves really disliking the 3rd edition setting?
Quote from: Nexus;896488Does anyone else find themselves really disliking the 3rd edition setting?
I don't know enough about it to have a very strong opinion. I know enough to know that 3rd edition isn't for me and I've got enough on my plate (I'm about to start reading through Horror on the Orient Express) that I have no intention of trying to read through the entire core book to get a better grasp of the setting. Of the major changes that I'm aware of, the geographical changes don't really bother me and the new Exalted types I find to be entirely unnecessary. They would probably be the biggest complaint I could raise right now about the setting.
Quote from: Nexus;896488Does anyone else find themselves really disliking the 3rd edition setting?
No snark, but I am genuinely curious as to why you don't like it?
Quote from: yabaziou;895676At least, he did not take some money for some vaporware that it is likely to be released the day following the relase of Far West (unless there were some pre-purchase of it ...). And last time I check, the Robotech KS was not in good shape (Iron rain's post confirms its dire state ...) ...
I remember people on TBP posting having paid for the Mechanoid Space over a decade ago, so no, it's not KS's fault that some people would take money for projects they're not able to finish.
Quote from: Nexus;896488Does anyone else find themselves really disliking the 3rd edition setting?
Some parts of it, I've simply excised. Some parts, I like, like sorcery, mortal sorcerers existing, and Exigents.
Quote from: Nexus;896488Does anyone else find themselves really disliking the 3rd edition setting?
I haven't delved to deeply into it myself, mostly looking at mechanics, but then again I know the setting. That said, I've found the chapter fiction to range from ok to 'let's put this up on the refrigerator because someone's going to be a writer someday!" levels of bad.
And I'm completely ignoring the new exalts, since A; there isn't anything but fluff available and B; what little fluff there is is scant.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;896538And I'm completely ignoring the new exalts, since A; there isn't anything but fluff available and B; what little fluff there is is scant.
It's the old WW trick of making sure that every game has some highlighted setting element that is completely undefined by the rules, so you feel obliged to buy more books, which will provide mechanics for it but contain more undefined elements...
Quote from: Christopher Brady;896508No snark, but I am genuinely curious as to why you don't like it?
The short answer is: just about everything I've heard about either lives me cold or I actively loathe. Its like they interviewed me about what I liked about and drew me to Exalted then wrote the game around crapping on my answers.
Quote from: Nexus;896608The short answer is: just about everything I've heard about either lives me cold or I actively loathe. Its like they interviewed me about what I liked about and drew me to Exalted then wrote the game around crapping on my answers.
Maybe it was what they actually do ^_^ ! It is a pity that a nice idea (playing returning godlings in a world where they do not longer belong) has being impleted in a not satisfactory way ...
Quote from: yabaziou;896624Maybe it was what they actually do ^_^ ! It is a pity that a nice idea (playing returning godlings in a world where they do not longer belong) has being impleted in a not satisfactory way ...
Its definitely not my cup of boiled leaf juice but allot of people like it so I can't say its objectively terrible. Exalted 3rd has been written to appeal to a fairly specific subset on its fanbase. That, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing. If they can stick to it it will probable work better than trying to serve many master. But it can really suck if you're not one of the target audience (assuming the new style doesn't appeal to you).
Honestly, I was facetious and my interest in Exalted 3 is very slim given the shitload of material I have for the 1st and 2nd editions. I saw the direction they were taking and I knew it was not where I was going. I was staying for the drama (and boy ! I was not disappointed there !) and the new Kevin Crawford (whose KS I pledged to) is far more able to fulfil my over the top heroes godling game interest. Nevertheless, I have no issue with Exalted 3rd and after all the incident in the inception of it, the fans get a product they enjoy, I am glad for them. I am just a little irritated when Exalted writers who happen to be rpgnet modertators get smug about their game (but being smug about his rpg of choice was all the WW/OPP schtick so whatever ...).
Quote from: yabaziou;896697Honestly, I was facetious and my interest in Exalted 3 is very slim given the shitload of material I have for the 1st and 2nd editions. I saw the direction they were taking and I knew it was not where I was to go. I was staying for the drama (and boy ! I was not disappointed there !) and the new Kevin Crawford (whose KS I pledged to) is far more able to fulfil my over the top heroes godling game interest. Nevertheless, I have not issue with Exalted 3rd and after all the incident in the inception of it, the fans get a product they enjoy, I am glad for them. I am just a little irritated when Exalted writers who happen to be rpgnet modertators get smug about his game (but being smug about his rpg of choice was all the WW/OPP schtick so whatever ...).
I'm disappointed in the new edition (its like it went from a game of adventure and epic deeds to WoD with a higher special effects budget combined with someone half assed Sociopolitical lecture). But the attitude of the Devs and the Mod staff is big part of what pissed me off.
Quote from: AsenRG;896512Some parts of it, I've simply excised. Some parts, I like, like sorcery, mortal sorcerers existing, and Exigents.
And, of course, those are some of the things I really don't like. Taste is a funny thing.
And while I'm bitching, the overall attitude of the fanbase is just as annoying as the Devs. Take all the arrogance, pretension and smugness associated with the gamer stereotype and dial it up to 11.
Quote from: Nexus;896850And while I'm bitching, the overall attitude of the fanbase is just as annoying as the Devs. Take all the arrogance, pretension and smugness associated with the gamer stereotype and dial it up to 11.
That's hardly a new thing. I will point out however, that it's hardly unique to that particular fanbase.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;896852That's hardly a new thing. I will point out however, that it's hardly unique to that particular fanbase.
I didn't say it was new or unique just that it annoys me. I will say it seems to be amped up in that particular fanbase though. Legacy of WW I guess and its encouraged by the game's staff. I mean "Evolve your game", seriously? And the nonstop crapping on, well, just about anything else? Sinenomine's behavior evem when producing a product that fit into roughly the same niche as Exalted just highlights how bad their behavior was.
Which is why I tell people not to buy Exalted third edition. I will not reward their shit attitude.
Quote from: Nexus;896847And, of course, those are some of the things I really don't like. Taste is a funny thing.
Indeed it is, but to me, that's a feature, not a bug:).
As an aside, I'm reading the setting chapter of Exalted 1st edition. If I start a game with players new to Exalted, that's what I'm going to print out for them;).
Quote from: Future Villain Band;895662I remember Mechanoid Space being "in progress" when I was in my first year of high school, and this is the year of my 25th reunion. What's crazy to me is that Kevin hasn't just said, "You know, fuck it, it's never coming."
It's his never-give-up attitude that makes Siembieda so endearing!
Quote from: RPGPundit;897297It's his never-give-up attitude that makes Siembieda so endearing!
Is that what that is? And here I thought it was Siembieda being his usual disillusion self. I've never figured that guy out, he very much hates it when players adapt his stuff, almost like he's a one true way purist.
Quote from: Snowman0147;896863Which is why I tell people not to buy Exalted third edition. I will not reward their shit attitude.
The overall snobby, cliquish and argumentative fanbase is nothing to write home about either.
Quote from: Nexus;897575The overall snobby, cliquish and argumentative fanbase is nothing to write home about either.
No kidding, but there is nothing to be done about. There can be something done about the devs and though.
Quote from: Snowman0147;897585No kidding, but there is nothing to be done about. There can be something done about the devs and though.
Fixing the latter might have a positive impact on the former, given time.
Wait, so RPG.net moderators are developers for Exalted 3e?
Looks like I'll be enjoying that 1e or 2e if I ever get around to playing.
I already know of one Onyx Path writer that actually managed a pretty hateful shaming blog for people in an MMORPG that didn't meet their standards. They also managed an army of online trolls, ERP'd with players and used the logs/screenshots for blackmail, and openly used ethnic slurs.
Quote from: Crüesader;897650Wait, so RPG.net moderators are developers for Exalted 3e?
Looks like I'll be enjoying that 1e or 2e if I ever get around to playing.
I already know of one Onyx Path writer that actually managed a pretty hateful shaming blog for people in an MMORPG that didn't meet their standards. They also managed an army of online trolls, ERP'd with players and used the logs/screenshots for blackmail, and openly used ethnic slurs.
By all means, lay your cards on the table.
Quote from: Crüesader;897650Wait, so RPG.net moderators are developers for Exalted 3e?
Looks like I'll be enjoying that 1e or 2e if I ever get around to playing.
I already know of one Onyx Path writer that actually managed a pretty hateful shaming blog for people in an MMORPG that didn't meet their standards. They also managed an army of online trolls, ERP'd with players and used the logs/screenshots for blackmail, and openly used ethnic slurs.
Dare I ask which writer in particular?
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;897673Dare I ask which writer in particular?
The one who goes by 'Felix' in online groups. She started a harassment blog some time ago for players in Champions Online.
Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;897673Dare I ask which writer in particular?
Let me get a bit more comfortable. If this persons knows me, I don't want to be stalked and harassed. I'd love to PM you when I get adjusted. But I can tell you the game was 'Champions Online'.
Quote from: Crüesader;897679Let me get a bit more comfortable. If this persons knows me, I don't want to be stalked and harassed. I'd love to PM you when I get adjusted. But I can tell you the game was 'Champions Online'.
That's probably be for the best. I'd rather not see you get swarmed by petty assholes over my idle curiosity.
As someone who still plays Champion Online, could I also get the PM? I want to be able to protect myself.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;897697As someone who still plays Champion Online, could I also get the PM? I want to be able to protect myself.
I promise I won't forget. I'm just going to give it a few days to make sure no one's going to try anything while I'm fresh here.
I just want to giggle at something.
Quote from: Crüesader;897650Wait, so RPG.net moderators are developers for Exalted 3e?
Looks like I'll be enjoying that 1e or 2e if I ever get around to playing.
I already know of one Onyx Path writer that actually managed a pretty hateful shaming blog for people in an MMORPG that didn't meet their standards. They also managed an army of online trolls, ERP'd with players and used the logs/screenshots for blackmail, and openly used ethnic slurs.
Why would anyone be worried for having participated in ERP session?
Quote from: AsenRG;897713Why would anyone be worried for having participated in ERP session?
As I understand, there were some risque' things happening- or at least things happening with 'the wrong people'. I've never seen the logs myself, so I can't confirm anything.
Quote from: Crüesader;897717As I understand, there were some risque' things happening- or at least things happening with 'the wrong people'. I've never seen the logs myself, so I can't confirm anything.
I'm still not clear on that, sorry, what's "the wrong people"? If he's a developer, he's obviously not a kid...
So why would it matter?
Quote from: AsenRG;897719I'm still not clear on that, sorry, what's "the wrong people"? If he's a developer, he's obviously not a kid...
So why would it matter?
In some MMO's it's a bannable offense. You lose all access to all the money you potentially sunk into it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;897861In some MMO's it's a bannable offense. You lose all access to all the money you potentially sunk into it.
That's got plenty to do with why an MMO might care about it, not why anyone on this forum could possibly care about it.
"Wrong people" - social lepers, known degenerates, pedos, etc.
Not 'wrong' in the sense of the forum, 'wrong' in the game community there.
Not that I agree with all those cases, of course. Just giving you the frame of the community there.
Back on track:
I'm looking through some things on Exalted 3e. It's starting to look like they toned it down to become 'D&D but not'. It's apparently lacking the epic scale of the former editions, if I'm reading this correctly. Anyone confirm?
Quote from: Crüesader;897994Back on track:
I'm looking through some things on Exalted 3e. It's starting to look like they toned it down to become 'D&D but not'. It's apparently lacking the epic scale of the former editions, if I'm reading this correctly. Anyone confirm?
That is the impression I have too. Which makes the constant crapping on D and D all the more sad. But Hell the game's been called "D and D for people that think they're too good for D and D" for awhile.
As far as I can tell, the dev had the choice of keeping the epic scale, or keeping a Storyteller system, since the former breaks the latter. They opted for keeping the system.
Quote from: Nexus;897996That is the impression I have too. Which makes the constant crapping on D and D all the more sad. But Hell the game's been called "D and D for people that think they're too good for D and D" for awhile.
Well, from what I understand quite a few of them were ass-mad over Alchemicals and such.
So I get an ever so passive aggressive implication from Stephen Lea Shepherd that I'm "making a bid deal out of something"and I guess derailing the thread by talking about... reading Exalted 3rd in the WIR Exalted 3rd bv posting literally "Oh, that's different." about a revealed detail.
But "Silvercatmoonpaw" whines about the setting not being egalitarian enough and he'd introduce mass produced Exalts to make it "fair" and that discussion goes on for a page with not a peep from Stephen Lea Shepherd.
They're not even trying hide it anymore.
Quote from: Nexus;898005They're not even trying hide it anymore.
And they say they aren't a threat to the hobby.
Quote from: Nexus;898005So I get an ever so passive aggressive implication from Stephen Lea Shepherd that I'm "making a bid deal out of something"and I guess derailing the thread by talking about... reading Exalted 3rd in the WIR Exalted 3rd bv posting literally "Oh, that's different." about a revealed detail.
But "Silvercatmoonpaw" whines about the setting not being egalitarian enough and he'd introduce mass produced Exalts to make it "fair" and that discussion goes on for a page with not a peep from Stephen Lea Shepherd.
They're not even trying hide it anymore.
Honestly, I'm absolutely shocked they haven't just banned you at this point. I'm pretty sure they're just waiting for any tiny excuse to (at the very least) give you a topic ban.
Quote from: Brand55;898009Honestly, I'm absolutely shocked they haven't just banned you at this point. I'm pretty sure they're just waiting for any tiny excuse to (at the very least) give you a topic ban.
Honestly, I'm surprised too.
SLS can eat a steaming pile of human shit and go fuck off. That batshit douche needs to just go the hell away.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;898021SLS can eat a steaming pile of human shit and go fuck off. That batshit douche needs to just go the hell away.
Don't sugarcoat it AC. Tell us how you really feel.
Quote from: Nexus;898010Honestly, I'm surprised too.
Considered that I was banned for asking what the proper terms are for what the porn industry calls a "shemale," specifically and explicitly because I wanted to know if the terminology I thought was correct was correct, I'm sometimes surprised that anyone not a mod hasn't been banned for a week or more at some point. Especially since banning offences can include "using actual facts about the subject under discussion."
Here's what baffles me. Why are so many people from the Outrage Brigade just absolutely glued to Exalted? It legitimately had a supplement in 2e that was all about sex and such, and featured a sorcery spell that basically got you tentacle-raped by a Neverborn.
Quote from: Crüesader;898030Here's what baffles me. Why are so many people from the Outrage Brigade just absolutely glued to Exalted? It legitimately had a supplement in 2e that was all about sex and such, and featured a sorcery spell that basically got you tentacle-raped by a Neverborn.
Not to mention one of the Death Lords is a dominatrix and has connections with the house of rape.
Quote from: Snowman0147;898064Not to mention one of the Death Lords is a dominatrix and has connections with the house of rape.
The one that chopped off arms of monks and forced them to bone? Yyyyup.
Quote from: Crüesader;898030Here's what baffles me. Why are so many people from the Outrage Brigade just absolutely glued to Exalted? It legitimately had a supplement in 2e that was all about sex and such, and featured a sorcery spell that basically got you tentacle-raped by a Neverborn.
You're assuming a level of rational thought and logic here. Not to disparage them, but this is theirs. Their thing. And something I've noticed, like some individuals and say, the OSR (and yeah, I'm guilty of this too), once they get something that they claim is 'theirs', they'll irrationally overlook anything and everything they need to, as long as they have their 'thing'.
Expecting humans to be rational at all times is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
Quote from: Crüesader;898030Here's what baffles me. Why are so many people from the Outrage Brigade just absolutely glued to Exalted? It legitimately had a supplement in 2e that was all about sex and such, and featured a sorcery spell that basically got you tentacle-raped by a Neverborn.
That's not a reason to avoid a game, that's a reason to take its books to the bathroom! ;)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;898076You're assuming a level of rational thought and logic here...
I kind of do. I think honestly, a lot of the outrage brigade aren't really outraged. They're just trying to run people out, and circling the wagons with loons that lash out at anything they're told to be offended by.
I am under the impression that a lot of people involved in Exalted 3 were already there for the Exalted 1 and 2 so I am very baffled that they made special effort to take down in Exalted 3 many things that were coll in the Exalted 1 and 2 ...
And SLS is so passive aggressive in the WIR thread. It is good thing that he is also a mod so he get an "get oof the jail" card ...
Quote from: Crüesader;898030Here's what baffles me. Why are so many people from the Outrage Brigade just absolutely glued to Exalted? It legitimately had a supplement in 2e that was all about sex and such, and featured a sorcery spell that basically got you tentacle-raped by a Neverborn.
Remember: Its okay to like Problematic things. Well for them too, you..not so much.
More seriously, Exalted's staff has gotten called on the carpet about allot of things, someof the ones you mentioned. And generally made the appropriate the sorry noises and appeasement gestures and was forgiven. Apparently the setting is so "inclusive" and "progressive" otherwise that some mistakes can be forgiven. But yeah, there is allot of material in earlier editions that would get other game on the must be banned list. But this edition has promised to fix all that.
To be fair, the sex supplement Scroll of Swallowed Darkness was an April Fool's Joke that the generally act embarrassed about these days. There was however (and maybe still is?) a pretty active part of the fanbase that was pretty into adult material. There was at least one website, some webcomics about it and Rpg.net itself used to have an annual "NC-17" Exalted content (with prizes) where posters submitted entries like a Luna Beloved Kitten (Luna's little girl lover and avid zoophile)and Zenith caste Solar, former shrine maiden from a temple to a Fertility/Phallus God who fought with an giant Oriachilum Dildo shaped grand goremaul named "Violator of Giants" that her 1st Age incarnation used to, lets say distract a Behemoth from its rampaging.It actually generated some amusing stuff. Really the setting's often brazen and non conventional approach to presenting sexuality was originally one of the positive aspect according to the board.
The pole really hasn't been so far up rpg.net's collective backside for that long. That might have been a bad way to put it...
Quote from: Crüesader;898065The one that chopped off arms of monks and forced them to bone? Yyyyup.
The Lover clad in Raiment of Tears?
The setting detail that amazes me that, as far as I've seen, no one has ever really made an issue of is the backstory provided for The Midnight Lady in Bloodstained Robes (the 1/2ed Abyssal sig that went bare breasted) in Scroll of Exalted. I'm pretty casual about these things but it was pretty ugly, it read like the author was writing revenge porn about a woman he didn't like in real life, She was a vain, dim witted prostitute that got so riddled with disease she was foul to be around and eventually her fellow prostitutes killed her and threw her body in a sewer which she climbed out of on Exaltation. And even as a Abyssal she was fairly dim and lecherous to the point she'd get distracted by her own highly pornographic anima images.
Quote from: Nexus;898100The Lover clad in Raiment of Tears?
The setting detail that amazes me that, as far as I've seen, no one has ever really made an issue of is the backstory provided for The Midnight Lady in Bloodstained Robes (the 1/2ed Abyssal sig that went bare breasted) in Scroll of Exalted. I'm pretty casual about these things but it was pretty ugly, it read like the author was writing revenge porn about a woman he didn't like in real life, She was a vain, dim witted prostitute that got so riddled with disease she was foul to be around and eventually her fellow prostitutes killed her and threw her body in a sewer which she climbed out of on Exaltation. And even as a Abyssal she was fairly dim and lecherous to the point she'd get distracted by her own highly pornographic anima images.
If I recall correctly, and this was many years ago so I can be wrong, the Midnight Lady was based on a former girlfriend of one of the authors. I don't remember what site or thread that information came from. Maybe the old White Wolf forums or an old rpg.net thread.
Edit: Found the link:
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?516948-Exalted-Scroll-of-Exalts&p=12237645#post12237645
Quote from: Starglyte;898105If I recall correctly, and this was many years ago so I can be wrong, the Midnight Lady was based on a former girlfriend of one of the authors. I don't remember what site or thread that information came from. Maybe the old White Wolf forums or an old rpg.net thread.
Edit: Found the link:
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?516948-Exalted-Scroll-of-Exalts&p=12237645#post12237645
Thank you!
I vaguely recalled that but I couldn't find a link so I thought I might have conflated the whole thing from the context of the background. To me that just makes it more amazing there wasn't more of stink raised about it. People lost their shit more over the use of the word "ravish" in an Abyssal charm's fluff.
What a asshole.
EDIT: The guy who made that character is who I meant.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;897861In some MMO's it's a bannable offense. You lose all access to all the money you potentially sunk into it.
...I guess that might be an issue for people that play MMOs, don't know.
Quote from: Jetstream;897880That's got plenty to do with why an MMO might care about it, not why anyone on this forum could possibly care about it.
Yeah:).
Quote from: Crüesader;897881"Wrong people" - social lepers, known degenerates, pedos, etc.
Not 'wrong' in the sense of the forum, 'wrong' in the game community there.
Not that I agree with all those cases, of course. Just giving you the frame of the community there.
Thank you for the explanation;).
Quote from: Crüesader;897994Back on track:
I'm looking through some things on Exalted 3e. It's starting to look like they toned it down to become 'D&D but not'. It's apparently lacking the epic scale of the former editions, if I'm reading this correctly. Anyone confirm?
Not...really? Not that I have noticed, if you prefer.
It's more like "Celestials and Dragon-Blooded are closer in power". Which actually just means that DBs are tougher.
Quote from: Nexus;898005So I get an ever so passive aggressive implication from Stephen Lea Shepherd that I'm "making a bid deal out of something"and I guess derailing the thread by talking about... reading Exalted 3rd in the WIR Exalted 3rd bv posting literally "Oh, that's different." about a revealed detail.
But "Silvercatmoonpaw" whines about the setting not being egalitarian enough and he'd introduce mass produced Exalts to make it "fair" and that discussion goes on for a page with not a peep from Stephen Lea Shepherd.
They're not even trying hide it anymore.
Silvercatmoonpaw is a funny guy. And it's almost guaranteed that if I like a setting detail, he hates it.
When we two came to the same conclusions regarding some stuff around Ex3, it was a shock. Not that anyone bothered to listen...:D
Quote from: Crüesader;898030Here's what baffles me. Why are so many people from the Outrage Brigade just absolutely glued to Exalted? It legitimately had a supplement in 2e that was all about sex and such, and featured a sorcery spell that basically got you tentacle-raped by a Neverborn.
It's a setting where the primary empire is inspired by a non-white culture, except matriarchal instead of patriarchal, and LBGT issues were a non-issue.
I have no idea why they'd like it...;)
Quote from: Snowman0147;898064Not to mention one of the Death Lords is a dominatrix and has connections with the house of rape.
Alternative sexualities are fine in my book.
Said Death Mistress became the favourite toy of one of my players, too;).
Quote from: Nexus;898099To be fair, the sex supplement Scroll of Swallowed Darkness was an April Fool's Joke that the generally act embarrassed about these days. There was however (and maybe still is?) a pretty active part of the fanbase that was pretty into adult material. There was at least one website, some webcomics about it and Rpg.net itself used to have an annual "NC-17" Exalted content (with prizes) where posters submitted entries like a Luna Beloved Kitten (Luna's little girl lover and avid zoophile)and Zenith caste Solar, former shrine maiden from a temple to a Fertility/Phallus God who fought with an giant Oriachilum Dildo shaped grand goremaul named "Violator of Giants" that her 1st Age incarnation used to, lets say distract a Behemoth from its rampaging.It actually generated some amusing stuff. Really the setting's often brazen and non conventional approach to presenting sexuality was originally one of the positive aspect according to the board.
The pole really hasn't been so far up rpg.net's collective backside for that long. That might have been a bad way to put it...
There still is. Go to any ERP site that's not system/setting specific, and use the search engine. Type "Exalted".
Quote from: Nexus;898100The setting detail that amazes me that, as far as I've seen, no one has ever really made an issue of is the backstory provided for The Midnight Lady in Bloodstained Robes (the 1/2ed Abyssal sig that went bare breasted) in Scroll of Exalted. I'm pretty casual about these things but it was pretty ugly, it read like the author was writing revenge porn about a woman he didn't like in real life, She was a vain, dim witted prostitute that got so riddled with disease she was foul to be around and eventually her fellow prostitutes killed her and threw her body in a sewer which she climbed out of on Exaltation. And even as a Abyssal she was fairly dim and lecherous to the point she'd get distracted by her own highly pornographic anima images.
OK, I haven't read 1e Abyssals, but that was just hilarious:D!
Quote from: Starglyte;898105If I recall correctly, and this was many years ago so I can be wrong, the Midnight Lady was based on a former girlfriend of one of the authors. I don't remember what site or thread that information came from. Maybe the old White Wolf forums or an old rpg.net thread.
Edit: Found the link:
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?516948-Exalted-Scroll-of-Exalts&p=12237645#post12237645
That, however, is pathetically sad.
Quote from: Nexus;898109Thank you!
I vaguely recalled that but I couldn't find a link so I thought I might have conflated the whole thing from the context of the background. To me that just makes it more amazing there wasn't more of stink raised about it. People lost their shit more over the use of the word "ravish" in an Abyssal charm's fluff.
Yes, and it was one of the stupidest reasons to lose their shit. I mean, "ravish" is almost official slang in romance novels...and it doesn't mean what the Outrage Brigade thinks it means. The authors were right on that account, at least.
I can't wait to see what's going to happen when someone in the fluff of a social charm is
forced to do something;).
Quote from: AsenRG;898178Said Death Mistress became the favourite toy of one of my players, too;).
I am keep kinda afraid to ask, but how did that happen?
Quote from: Crüesader;898030Here's what baffles me. Why are so many people from the Outrage Brigade just absolutely glued to Exalted?
Its the group they've chosen to embrace, along with other fringe and supposedly "sophisticated" types, a legacy from White Wolf. but it works very well generally. Making people that probably feel marginalized even ignored feel special, important and smarter is good way to cultivate a very loyal fanbase. It has bitten them in the ass a few times but overall its more often been beneficial.
As Warboss Squee said, none of this is new. Its practically SOP. Start with a fairly straight forwards, simple concept and pile on more "sophisticated" elements until it, the setting and premise are creaking under the weight, muddle the morality into increasingly muddled, dark to grimdark including a "Surprise, the primary characters are actually the villains!" reveal, heavy handed sociopolitical messages disguised as setting elements. contrived and contradictory setting details excused by "from a certain point of view" rationalizations and vague wiggle words which are also used to explain the bouncing power levels is a high one was promised and inevitably Storyteller can't handle it (See Aberrant). The list goes on.
And its all repeated across the WW games lines to varying degree. So yeah, none of this is new. I pretty much saw this coming when Exalted was released yet like a dementia patient or abused spouse buying promises that "This time it'll be different, baby." I walked right back into it and down the same garden path as before.
Quote from: Snowman0147;898182I am keep kinda afraid to ask, but how did that happen?
They socialcharmfued her into serving them unconditionally, of course;)!
Thank God for Godbound then.
Quote from: AsenRG;898188They socialcharmfued her into serving them unconditionally, of course;)!
I am actually surprised. In truth I was expecting much worst.
Quote from: AsenRG;898178.
Not...really? Not that I have noticed, if you prefer.
It's more like "Celestials and Dragon-Blooded are closer in power". Which actually just means that DBs are tougher.
They're tougher because Celestials (or at least Solars since they're the only group we have full details on) are weakened. The "power teirs" being narrowed or even ignored has been one of the big flagship changes touted about 3rd edition along with empowering Mortals (I guess the setting more "fair") Combined with setting changes like making Creation larger and increasing the number of Exalts over all it has the effect of lessening the overall impact Exalts have on the setting. It seems entirely intentional and has made the setting feel more liker “D and D” to quite a few, focused on local events and smaller scale. Most of the charms I've seen are even smaller scale and less impressive than before.
Sometimes it seems like the game has been slowly moving towards it original default assumptions (Dragonblooded as the base character type and the game more or less focused on them) since late 1st Edition. Most of the vocal fanbase seems to loathe the Solar Exalted so I guess that's not a big surprise.
QuoteSilvercatmoonpaw is a funny guy. And it's almost guaranteed that if I like a setting detail, he hates it.
When we two came to the same conclusions regarding some stuff around Ex3, it was a shock. Not that anyone bothered to listen...:D
Funny is not the adjective(s) I'd use but, whatevs, that's what IL is for.
QuoteIt's a setting where the primary empire is inspired by a non-white culture, except matriarchal instead of patriarchal, and LBGT issues were a non-issue.
I have no idea why they'd like it...;)
I think he has some understandable confusion about why Exalted so often gets a pass for being chockful of "problematic" elements that other games get raked over the coals for including Pathfinder which has acceptance of such topics like alternate sexualities as well. Hell, they've desribed the Realm as more Rome than Imperial China and an analogy for the US.
QuoteThere still is. Go to any ERP site that's not system/setting specific, and use the search engine. Type "Exalted".
Guess they're allot quieter than they used to be but nice to know they haven't ceased to exist. Shame the Freedom Stone has turned into a ghost town though.
QuoteOK, I haven't read 1e Abyssals, but that was just hilarious:D!
But its the kind of funny that would get any other writer for almost any other line pilloried on rpg.net even if it wasn't driven by a hit piece about a real women. Makes all the outrage some of those guys have shown about Gamergate look a little phony.
QuoteYes, and it was one of the stupidest reasons to lose their shit. I mean, "ravish" is almost official slang in romance novels...and it doesn't mean what the Outrage Brigade thinks it means. The authors were right on that account, at least.
I can't wait to see what's going to happen when someone in the fluff of a social charm is forced to do something;).
Romance Novels are “problematic” too. And no actual women that aren't brainwashed by the Patriarchy read those things and enjoy them. :rolleyes:
But really what can you expect. Cthullutech got lambasted for “The Rapine Storm”. Those first three letters are triggering I guess.
Quote from: Nexus;898184Its the group they've chosen to embrace, along with other fringe and supposedly "sophisticated" types, a legacy from White Wolf. but it works very well generally. Making people that probably feel marginalized even ignored feel special, important and smarter is good way to cultivate a very loyal fanbase. It has bitten them in the ass a few times but overall its more often been beneficial.
As Warboss Squee said, none of this is new. Its practically SOP. Start with a fairly straight forwards, simple concept and pile on more "sophisticated" elements until it, the setting and premise are creaking under the weight, muddle the morality into increasingly muddled, dark to grimdark including a "Surprise, the primary characters are actually the villains!" reveal, heavy handed sociopolitical messages disguised as setting elements. contrived and contradictory setting details excused by "from a certain point of view" rationalizations and vague wiggle words which are also used to explain the bouncing power levels is a high one was promised and inevitably Storyteller can't handle it (See Aberrant). The list goes on.
And its all repeated across the WW games lines to varying degree. So yeah, none of this is new. I pretty much saw this coming when Exalted was released yet like a dementia patient or abused spouse buying promises that "This time it'll be different, baby." I walked right back into it and down the same garden path as before.
Someone +1 this mofo. He gets me.
Quote from: Snowman0147;898182I am keep kinda afraid to ask, but how did that happen?
Did they ever publish a stat block for her beyond the "Every Solar charm up to Essence 6 in the following abilities, up to Essence 4 in everything else, 10+ dice pools and pile of health levels." style shorthand?
No idea. Wait isn't she essence 10?
Quote from: Snowman0147;898194I am actually surprised. In truth I was expecting much worst.
...what is "worse" in that context? I mean, worse than fucking brainwashing?
The player that lead the way just decided that a ghost that's evil in every conventional sense of the world doesn't merit compassion. Charms were custom-prepared, and the situation was manipulated so they would fit;).
I've never seen her using those charms before, or since, unless it was someone the PC passed similar judgement on.
Quote from: Nexus;898197They're tougher because Celestials (or at least Solars since they're the only group we have full details on) are weakened. The "power teirs" being narrowed or even ignored has been one of the big flagship changes touted about 3rd edition along with empowering Mortals (I guess the setting more "fair") Combined with setting changes like making Creation larger and increasing the number of Exalts over all it has the effect of lessening the overall impact Exalts have on the setting. It seems entirely intentional and has made the setting feel more liker “D and D” to quite a few, focused on local events and smaller scale. Most of the charms I've seen are even smaller scale and less impressive than before.
There are weaker charms, but you combine them freely for uber-combos. So no, it's not "like D&D", unless you mean "like playing a 3e Sorcerer".
Empowering Mortals? WTF? They don't even get Terrestrial MAs now!
QuoteSometimes it seems like the game has been slowly moving towards it original default assumptions (Dragonblooded as the base character type and the game more or less focused on them) since late 1st Edition. Most of the vocal fanbase seems to loathe the Solar Exalted so I guess that's not a big surprise.
Haven't noticed anything like that. DBs being tougher is only due to the fact that we made them so, because they were a joke at the end of 2e and we didn't like that.
Though I admit DBs are in a more interesting situation, at least at the beginning.
QuoteFunny is not the adjective(s) I'd use but, whatevs, that's what IL is for.
We react differently - no surprise there.
QuoteI think he has some understandable confusion about why Exalted so often gets a pass for being chockful of "problematic" elements that other games get raked over the coals for including Pathfinder which has acceptance of such topics like alternate sexualities as well. Hell, they've desribed the Realm as more Rome than Imperial China and an analogy for the US.
I was thinking the part about the analogy last night, while reading Ex1, so it's there. But mostly, the answer would be "they're deep in bed with the Outrage Brigade, and they benefit from the reputation of being the first to be both popular and expressly inclusive".
QuoteGuess they're allot quieter than they used to be but nice to know they haven't ceased to exist. Shame the Freedom Stone has turned into a ghost town though.
Google still shows lots of places. I searched one of them, Exalted seemed...rather popular, shall we say;)!
QuoteBut its the kind of funny that would get any other writer for almost any other line pilloried on rpg.net even if it wasn't driven by a hit piece about a real women. Makes all the outrage some of those guys have shown about Gamergate look a little phony.
Well, at least they guy with the former girlfriend sure doesn't look well in any comparisons.
QuoteRomance Novels are “problematic” too. And no actual women that aren't brainwashed by the Patriarchy read those things and enjoy them. :rolleyes:
I think that's unsupported by what we know of the readership, which makes it a stupid position. And I find stupid positions to be problematic;).
QuoteBut really what can you expect. Cthullutech got lambasted for “The Rapine Storm”. Those first three letters are triggering I guess.
Maybe, I haven't read Cthulhutech.
Quote from: Nexus;898209Did they ever publish a stat block for her beyond the "Every Solar charm up to Essence 6 in the following abilities, up to Essence 4 in everything else, 10+ dice pools and pile of health levels." style shorthand?
Dunno, but that's the one I used when running said game:D!
Quote from: Starglyte;898105If I recall correctly, and this was many years ago so I can be wrong, the Midnight Lady was based on a former girlfriend of one of the authors. I don't remember what site or thread that information came from. Maybe the old White Wolf forums or an old rpg.net thread.
Edit: Found the link:
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?516948-Exalted-Scroll-of-Exalts&p=12237645#post12237645
What's really ironic is that a similar case is how GamerGate got started. :D
JG
Quote from: Holden;20119758If you are a group of young Solars heading into Lunar country, the wisest default feeling to have about doing so would be "fear."
It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".
Quote from: Nexus;900111It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".
Or you could just interpret this as "you've been up for a little while and they've been up for possibly years or centuries and, like lots of things that are older/more experienced than you, they're difficult to handle."
Seriously guys, can we stop making the pissiest possible interpretations of everything they say? Let's dial back the hyperbole.
He's not entirely wrong, though. As others have pointed out, many of the stats for the given antagonists, when you reverse engineer the dice pools, are frankly ridiculous. Elite troops all have Dexterity 5, Melee 4, or Dexterity 4, Melee 5. Rankings like that are the stuff of legends. A rating of 3 is well above average. For Abilities, it's the ranking of an elite or a veteran, and for Attributes it's outstanding. 4 is extraordinary even compared to people notable for the Attribute or Ability in question, and 5 is the stuff of legend.
Quote from: Jetstream;900112Or you could just interpret this as "you've been up for a little while and they've been up for possibly years or centuries and, like lots of things that are older/more experienced than you, they're difficult to handle."
Seriously guys, can we stop making the pissiest possible interpretations of everything they say? Let's dial back the hyperbole.
No, because the game's really no longer about you playing a world-shaking bad-ass as much as it's about existing in OOP's SJW social experiment the way they want you to.
Quote from: Nexus;900111It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".
Oh come now. Everyone knows you urinate on the apple cart. If you just kick it over, the dirty peasants will eat.
Quote from: Nexus;900111It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".
Not my impression. The recent fight against Lunars that we had really didn't end in favour of the Lunars:).
Of course, everyone that participated in it would probably have issues with the Silver Pack now, but isn't that par for the course in Exalted of all games;)?
Quote from: Jetstream;900112Or you could just interpret this as "you've been up for a little while and they've been up for possibly years or centuries and, like lots of things that are older/more experienced than you, they're difficult to handle."
Seriously guys, can we stop making the pissiest possible interpretations of everything they say? Let's dial back the hyperbole.
Yes on both accounts.
Quote from: Whitewings;900113He's not entirely wrong, though. As others have pointed out, many of the stats for the given antagonists, when you reverse engineer the dice pools, are frankly ridiculous. Elite troops all have Dexterity 5, Melee 4, or Dexterity 4, Melee 5. Rankings like that are the stuff of legends. A rating of 3 is well above average. For Abilities, it's the ranking of an elite or a veteran, and for Attributes it's outstanding. 4 is extraordinary even compared to people notable for the Attribute or Ability in question, and 5 is the stuff of legend.
Well, people were complaining about mortals not being a threat for ages, so they just got what they wanted, I guess:p.
I admit that the reason I don't have an issue with that just might be that I've never had a fight against elite troops in Exalted 3e, purely for IC reasons:D.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900116No, because the game's really no longer about you playing a world-shaking bad-ass as much as it's about existing in OOP's SJW social experiment the way they want you to.
What social experiment? The way I see it, Exalted's setting hasn't changed all that much, and the parts we didn't like have been reverted back to their 2e or even 1e state:D!
When I read such posts, I wonder whether you're still playing the same game;).
Quote from: Whitewings;900113He's not entirely wrong, though. As others have pointed out, many of the stats for the given antagonists, when you reverse engineer the dice pools, are frankly ridiculous. Elite troops all have Dexterity 5, Melee 4, or Dexterity 4, Melee 5. Rankings like that are the stuff of legends. A rating of 3 is well above average. For Abilities, it's the ranking of an elite or a veteran, and for Attributes it's outstanding. 4 is extraordinary even compared to people notable for the Attribute or Ability in question, and 5 is the stuff of legend.
This is a long-standing White Wolf issue. Anyone remember the stats for cops in nWoD's Antagonists section? Apparently every plod walking a beat is an uberman far more capable than any starting character could be.
Quote from: Nexus;900111It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".
The thing is, it's always been that way. Want to knock off Ma-Ha-Suchi and put an end to his barbarous rape camps and plans to destroy civilization? You can't. He's an Essence 4-5 Lunar with all the bells and whistles that implies. Unless the GM nerfs the crap out of him, he's going to destroy the average Circle, and you certainly aren't going to get any Lunar allies to help, since they're complicit in his madness.
Most of the named antagonists are like that. Mostly because they're centuries old, and have not just personal power but social and infrastructure that you simply can't amass. The game simply isn't about shacking up the setting and more about dealing with little problems and making sure you don't draw to much attention less your betters fuck you up.
Quote from: Kiero;900126This is a long-standing White Wolf issue. Anyone remember the stats for cops in nWoD's Antagonists section? Apparently every plod walking a beat is an uberman far more capable than any starting character could be.
It was mentioned on TBP that nWoD assumes the starting PCs to be teenagers. Beatcops do have more experience fighting than normal teens, that's for sure...:)
Me? I think that's simply due to the low granularity inherent in the Stortellering system;). They need someone "better than average brawlers" (because yes, beat cops do arrest those), but this ends up with the cop becoming overrated against other opponents.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900127The thing is, it's always been that way. Want to knock off Ma-Ha-Suchi and put an end to his barbarous rape camps and plans to destroy civilization? You can't. He's an Essence 4-5 Lunar with all the bells and whistles that implies. Unless the GM nerfs the crap out of him, he's going to destroy the average Circle, and you certainly aren't going to get any Lunar allies to help, since they're complicit in his madness.
OK, now I know you're playing a different game from me:D!
QuoteMost of the named antagonists are like that. Mostly because they're centuries old, and have not just personal power but social and infrastructure that you simply can't amass. The game simply isn't about shacking up the setting and more about dealing with little problems and making sure you don't draw to much attention less your betters fuck you up.
Yes, totally different games in a similarly-named setting. BTW, what system are you using:p?
I'm asking, because under the current system, or under 2e, it was quite possible to deal with Ma-Ha-Suchi, IME;).
Quote from: AsenRG;900144It was mentioned on TBP that nWoD assumes the starting PCs to be teenagers.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]90[/ATTACH]
All the more reason to avoid that abomination of a wrist-slicer game like it's made of Patchouli and barbed AIDs dick.
QuoteOr you could just interpret this as "you've been up for a little while and they've been up for possibly years or centuries and, like lots of things that are older/more experienced than you, they're difficult to handle."
Seriously guys, can we stop making the pissiest possible interpretations of everything they say? Let's dial back the hyperbole.
Its not simply what was said about Lunars. The continual stat inflation and power creep across the development of the game, the focus on more making antagonist setting elements more power, more invasive and more aggressive (including ramping up the inherent acrimony between different groups). And the implementation of changes to seemingly level the playing field so the PCs more numerous foes are almost as powerful and also better equipped, better backed and can find you more easily. It's not just what's happened in 3rd edition but the arc of the game and another thing it shares with most other spiritual White Wolf games. The PCs are supposed to be at the bottom and either on the run and working for their "betters" and not doing annoying things like actually changing the setting. Aberrant being one of the worst offenders in that regard ("What would do with the power of god? Watch the other more powerful gods story play out apparently) or the world of darkness iteration where a beat cop could tangle with a starting vamprire mehanically and come out on top.
What I quoted was just the latest brick on the pile not the first clue.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900127The thing is, it's always been that way. Want to knock off Ma-Ha-Suchi and put an end to his barbarous rape camps and plans to destroy civilization? You can't. He's an Essence 4-5 Lunar with all the bells and whistles that implies. Unless the GM nerfs the crap out of him, he's going to destroy the average Circle, and you certainly aren't going to get any Lunar allies to help, since they're complicit in his madness.
Of course, like I mentioned earlier none of this shit is new, perhaps a bit more refined but its all from the classic playbook. Lowering the general power level and making the setting much bigger along with upping the number of Exalted (effectively meaning "PC types") contributes to this as well.
QuoteMost of the named antagonists are like that. Mostly because they're centuries old, and have not just personal power but social and infrastructure that you simply can't amass. The game simply isn't about shacking up the setting and more about dealing with little problems and making sure you don't draw to much attention less your betters fuck you up.
Yep, like the WoD
Edit: Actually somewhat worse since the WoD its possible to be just another scrub Whatever the Hell you are among many but as Solar in Exalted some of the most ancient and powerful groups and being in the setting have a grudge against you that's almost literally personal in some cases.
Quote from: AsenRG;900144It was mentioned on TBP that nWoD assumes the starting PCs to be teenagers. Beatcops do have more experience fighting than normal teens, that's for sure...:)
Me? I think that's simply due to the low granularity inherent in the Stortellering system;). They need someone "better than average brawlers" (because yes, beat cops do arrest those), but this ends up with the cop becoming overrated against other opponents.
OK, now I know you're playing a different game from me:D!
Yes, totally different games in a similarly-named setting. BTW, what system are you using:p?
I'm asking, because under the current system, or under 2e, it was quite possible to deal with Ma-Ha-Suchi, IME;).
I was using the 2.5 rewrite. And we actually used the training times the way it was it supposed to be.
Oh, and I was mistaken earlier. He's ESSENCE 7! That means higher base DVs, larger mote pools and a hell of a lot more charms and spells (including Necromancy for some reason or another). One top of his massive amounts of beastmen, which I think are Tiger Warriors? Don't quite remember.
Point is, it's the Thousand Dooms of Stupidity, where you have this massive amount of threats that you just can't handle, aren't supposed to be able to handle, that haven't carried out their plans for world domination/destruction of all civilization/pulling Creation into the Void etc, because they've just had a massive wankfest and are still enjoying the afterglow.
And that's only taking into account the threats and opposition that your character might actually know about. Let's say you are based in the East, have managed to somehow attain rulership of Lookshy, and used it to springboard into an empire that includes Thorns (because one of the other Solar munchkins suplexed Juggernaut through Creation ((It was fairly awesome)) and the Mask decided it wasn't worth his time), Nexus and Port Calin.
You know want to eliminate further threats to your rule, which means absorbing Greyfalls, which Greyfalls would actually be in favor of since they've pretty much given up on the Realm having been largely abandoned, and putting down this horde of beastmen marauders and their super-powered and deranged leader. Assuming you pull this off, what's to stop some top kek Sidereal from convincing you they've been your favorite harem girl for the last several seasons and then punching your soul off during a blow job?
Quote from: Nexus;900147Its not simply what was said about Lunars. The continual stat inflation and power creep across the development of the game, the focus on more making antagonist setting elements more power, more invasive and more aggressive (including ramping up the inherent acrimony between different groups). And the implementation of changes to seemingly level the playing field so the PCs more numerous foes are almost as powerful and also better equipped, better backed and can find you more easily. It's not just what's happened in 3rd edition but the arc of the game and another thing it shares with most other spiritual White Wolf games. The PCs are supposed to be at the bottom and either on the run and working for their "betters" and not doing annoying things like actually changing the setting. Aberrant being one of the worst offenders in that regard ("What would do with the power of god? Watch the other more powerful gods story play out apparently) or the world of darkness iteration where a beat cop could tangle with a starting vamprire mehanically and come out on top.
What I quoted was just the latest brick on the pile not the first clue.
Good, but I think you're still talking about the WoD;).
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900157I was using the 2.5 rewrite.
...and you didn't die from boredom?
QuoteAnd we actually used the training times the way it was it supposed to be.
We did as well.
QuoteOh, and I was mistaken earlier. He's ESSENCE 7! That means higher base DVs, larger mote pools and a hell of a lot more charms and spells (including Necromancy for some reason or another). One top of his massive amounts of beastmen, which I think are Tiger Warriors? Don't quite remember.
So what? A full Circle curbstomps him all the same.
QuotePoint is, it's the Thousand Dooms of Stupidity, where you have this massive amount of threats that you just can't handle, aren't supposed to be able to handle, that haven't carried out their plans for world domination/destruction of all civilization/pulling Creation into the Void etc, because they've just had a massive wankfest and are still enjoying the afterglow.
:D
I almost +1ed your post for the sheer passion, but then realized someone might misunderstand it as me agreeing with it:).
QuoteAnd that's only taking into account the threats and opposition that your character might actually know about. Let's say you are based in the East, have managed to somehow attain rulership of Lookshy, and used it to springboard into an empire that includes Thorns (because one of the other Solar munchkins suplexed Juggernaut through Creation ((It was fairly awesome)) and the Mask decided it wasn't worth his time), Nexus and Port Calin.
You know want to eliminate further threats to your rule, which means absorbing Greyfalls, which Greyfalls would actually be in favor of since they've pretty much given up on the Realm having been largely abandoned, and putting down this horde of beastmen marauders and their super-powered and deranged leader. Assuming you pull this off, what's to stop some top kek Sidereal from convincing you they've been your favorite harem girl for the last several seasons and then punching your soul off during a blow job?
You mean, apart from Surprise Anticipation Method and all that jazz;)?
Although now I totally have to try that trick on my players:D!
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900157I was using the 2.5 rewrite. And we actually used the training times the way it was it supposed to be.
Oh, and I was mistaken earlier. He's ESSENCE 7! That means higher base DVs, larger mote pools and a hell of a lot more charms and spells (including Necromancy for some reason or another). One top of his massive amounts of beastmen, which I think are Tiger Warriors? Don't quite remember.
Point is, it's the Thousand Dooms of Stupidity, where you have this massive amount of threats that you just can't handle, aren't supposed to be able to handle, that haven't carried out their plans for world domination/destruction of all civilization/pulling Creation into the Void etc, because they've just had a massive wankfest and are still enjoying the afterglow.
And that's only taking into account the threats and opposition that your character might actually know about. Let's say you are based in the East, have managed to somehow attain rulership of Lookshy, and used it to springboard into an empire that includes Thorns (because one of the other Solar munchkins suplexed Juggernaut through Creation ((It was fairly awesome)) and the Mask decided it wasn't worth his time), Nexus and Port Calin.
You know want to eliminate further threats to your rule, which means absorbing Greyfalls, which Greyfalls would actually be in favor of since they've pretty much given up on the Realm having been largely abandoned, and putting down this horde of beastmen marauders and their super-powered and deranged leader. Assuming you pull this off, what's to stop some top kek Sidereal from convincing you they've been your favorite harem girl for the last several seasons and then punching your soul off during a blow job?
And yet, if we were playing D&D and I put your first level fighter in a world with Undead McLicherson, 20th level wizardman extarordinaire....you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd go gain enough power to beat him or leave him alone or whatever; but you wouldn't say "This is fucking stupid, I can never beat him he's so powerful and has too much infrastructure. And even if I do then the Grandmother of Assassins will punch my soul out in the middle of a BJ."
Quote from: Michael Gray;900174And yet, if we were playing D&D and I put your first level fighter in a world with Undead McLicherson, 20th level wizardman extarordinaire....you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd go gain enough power to beat him or leave him alone or whatever; but you wouldn't say "This is fucking stupid, I can never beat him he's so powerful and has too much infrastructure. And even if I do then the Grandmother of Assassins will punch my soul out in the middle of a BJ."
In a typical D&D game, Undead McLicherson doesn't want the PCs dead. Personally. As individuals. In Exalted, he does want dead. Personally. As an individual. He will throw whatever resources he can at you, and he has a lot of resources that you don't and can't have simply because he's actively and aggressively leveraging his own resources to ensure you accomplish nothing before you die. And it's not just him and his massive support organization: you've got the huge, ancient dragon over there, and over there you've the epic level evil priests, and down in the Lower Planes you have some arch-devils.
Quote from: AsenRG;900121What social experiment? The way I see it, Exalted's setting hasn't changed all that much, and the parts we didn't like have been reverted back to their 2e or even 1e state:D!
When I read such posts, I wonder whether you're still playing the same game;).
Because it was created in a vacuum by SJWs who pandered to a shrill choir of other SJWs. It was touted to be built from the ground up, but wasn't and it's selling points were its name and a shitty trans sig. Anyone who dared call OPP out on their bullshit in any venue OPP had a modicum of control over, were silenced at worst and ignored at best. The only people who had a voice were the kneeling, open-mouthed sheep who had the same views as they did.
The game is a bloated mess of rules upon rules created to appease people who don't even play RPGs and the only reason it's gotten any traction is heritage and a desperation to see a hopeful idea realized. This, "It's got some good stuff in there" defense is weak; one good head of lettuce in a field of rotting mulch does not a harvest make.
Does it work for you? It seems so. You make it fun and good for you. However, give it time. 2nd Ed was a hands-free Fleshlight with neverending lube when it was first released but it didn't take long for the cracks to show. Ex3 started with cracks and they've been filling them in with the tears of SJWs ever since the leak.
Quote from: Michael Gray;900174And yet, if we were playing D&D and I put your first level fighter in a world with Undead McLicherson, 20th level wizardman extarordinaire....you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd go gain enough power to beat him or leave him alone or whatever; but you wouldn't say "This is fucking stupid, I can never beat him he's so powerful and has too much infrastructure. And even if I do then the Grandmother of Assassins will punch my soul out in the middle of a BJ."
Your point nicely illustrates the benefits of D&D's (and other games') zero-to-hero structure versus Exalted's (and other games') starting out as a superhero.
Managing archvillains in any game is tricky business. You want players to bridge the power gap within a time frame that allows for a villain's plans to progress (setting up some urgency) without fully coming to fruition (or it would be all in vain), while in the meantime PCs work their way through the enemy hierarchy and/or plans-within-plans.
I can't really vouch for how this would work with Ma-Ha-Suchi or the Mask of Winters ir any other Exalted antagonist as I am only passingly familiar with Exalted canon. But in my experience, to keep a campaign-long interest in an antagonist requires these three things: (1) a villainous goal that gets players and their characters invested in stopping them; (2) a structure of sprawling plans and an army of henchmen/women/robots/whatever that can be engaged at different junctures of a campaign; (3) strictly optionally, a power gap that can be sufficiently bridged (if and only if you want a climactic final confrontation with the prime mover of evil. Classic adventures from Dragonlance to Masks of Nyarlathotep do fine without those!)
The thing with Exalted is that, by dint of being "epic" and "super", it can't always get away with #3 being optional. No one expects Caramon to punch Takhisis in the face, or your neurasthenic New England professor to go Gustaf Johansen on Nyarlathotep's ass. I suppose most Solar OCs with a lick of good sense might conform to never beating a Neverborn, but not being able to eventually personally put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans can be a bummer (if that is indeed the case).
Quote from: Whitewings;900181In a typical D&D game, Undead McLicherson doesn't want the PCs dead. Personally. As individuals. In Exalted, he does want dead. Personally. As an individual. He will throw whatever resources he can at you, and he has a lot of resources that you don't and can't have simply because he's actively and aggressively leveraging his own resources to ensure you accomplish nothing before you die. And it's not just him and his massive support organization: you've got the huge, ancient dragon over there, and over there you've the epic level evil priests, and down in the Lower Planes you have some arch-devils.
In a typical Exalted game Ma-Ha-Suchi does not want the PCs dead. He likely doesn't know who the PCs are. Yeah, if they come in as starting characters and try to act like big swinging dicks to the Elder God Beast that rules an entire nation of goat-dudes? They will probably be fucked. That's not a problem with the setting or the game. That's a problem with the player's being idiots and getting kacked for it. And yes starting Exalts are supposed to be more powerful than mortals, but you still have to be smart about your abilities.
About the only people you can legitimately say want to kill your guy from the get go are some Elder Sidereals. And they won't know where you are and mostly work through lackeys because they're too busy being Masters of the World to go do their actual job. Like literally Chejop Kejak spends most of his time with the religious head of the Immaculate Order or in Heaven. He has goons to kill you. That's how he rolls.
Quote from: The Butcher;900191Your point nicely illustrates the benefits of D&D's (and other games') zero-to-hero structure versus Exalted's (and other games') starting out as a superhero.
Managing archvillains in any game is tricky business. You want players to bridge the power gap within a time frame that allows for a villain's plans to progress (setting up some urgency) without fully coming to fruition (or it would be all in vain), while in the meantime PCs work their way through the enemy hierarchy and/or plans-within-plans.
I can't really vouch for how this would work with Ma-Ha-Suchi or the Mask of Winters ir any other Exalted antagonist as I am only passingly familiar with Exalted canon. But in my experience, to keep a campaign-long interest in an antagonist requires these three things: (1) a villainous goal that gets players and their characters invested in stopping them; (2) a structure of sprawling plans and an army of henchmen/women/robots/whatever that can be engaged at different junctures of a campaign; (3) strictly optionally, a power gap that can be sufficiently bridged (if and only if you want a climactic final confrontation with the prime mover of evil. Classic adventures from Dragonlance to Masks of Nyarlathotep do fine without those!)
The thing with Exalted is that, by dint of being "epic" and "super", it can't always get away with #3 being optional. No one expects Caramon to punch Takhisis in the face, or your neurasthenic New England professor to go Gustaf Johansen on Nyarlathotep's ass. I suppose most Solar OCs with a lick of good sense might conform to never beating a Neverborn, but not being able to eventually personally put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans can be a bummer (if that is indeed the case).
It just seemed like a weird hill to die on for me. Most RPGs have SOME kind of powerful antagonist that outclasses you in the beginning. It's not a problem there and it's not a problem in Exalted. The problem I've always found is that enemies I think will steamroll my players just get plowed under due to good planning and weight of numbers.
Ma-ha-Suchi might not know who the PCs are but he will know of what the PCs are. In Exalted reputedly they're not just some other schlub noobie Adventurer. They're Exalted, Solar Exalted, the legendary lords and god kings from a by gone age. They are a big deal not Joe Fighter. Suchi most definitely be highly interested in them if they pop on his radar while the hypothetical Lichy McLichface likely won't give a damn about Joe the Fighter and Jane the mage unless they come knocking on his door, perhaps not even then. MHS is pretty pissed at Solars and concerned about their return and that they can fuck up his plans while someone drawn to them.
And he's not the only elder that feels that way. Deathlords are presented know full well what Solars and actively seek them out to convert or destroy The Immaculate Order, the state religion of the largest empire in the world considers it their holy duty to eliminate then and even in their currently "weakened" state can and will send small armies to back the specially trained hit squads of Terrestrials (which particularly in 3rd aren't significantly less potent than the PC and can outnumber them 2-3 times to one). There is an entire faction Sidereals that have a vested interest in killing Solars, some of them are elders but some of them are just far older and more experienced than the PCs and can call on the resources of Heaven. including having access to charms and abilities that will guide them to you. Its what they do for the Wyld Hunt: point out Solar anathema. And if the Hunt can't handle them they send in "Grandmother of Assassins" (which is actually a pretty fitting name for the setting).
Its possible to avoid them but it means laying very low and hiding your abilities as much as possible and game more like a vampire in WoD than an "epic hero". Then there are various gods and entities that dot every important region that also know what the solars are and most of them would rather not see them return. There is allot more of the setting aimed at Solar PCs from the jump than in most D and D games I've been in and the game presents an imperative in tone and mood to "do" things not just hide out somewhere in the middle of nowhere (where they could still find you but chances are less). Hell, the fiction is full of examples of power beings seeking Solars out rather than the Solar "swinging their dicks" and picking fights they knew they couldn't win, the story of Dace aside. And its not just elders they're just the most graphic illustration of the issue because they're so swollen beyond PC levels its abundantly clear they're untouchable but any more experienced opponents can fit the bill especially with earlier edition particularly lethal combat where you might be dead before you know you're losing, they're almost everywhere and most of them have a grudge against you. Some of the personally (because you a massive dick in your last life).
The problem isn't that powerful beings exist in the setting is that most of are so powerful and informed that if they exert any effort at all they can wipe the PCs out and most of them having vested, even personal interest in doing so. And adapting to that create a different mood from what on the box: laying low, fleeing contact and begging more powerful beings for protection until "some day" you'll be a big boy matter (that might be century later in a world that on the brink not going out, forging legends and being an epic hero right off the bat like its claimed. The most common explanation for why you're not plowed under "They have better things to do" just drives home the disconnect between hype, the fluff and the reality. Hell, you're not that much tougher than mortals or more powerful outside of your area of focus where likely perform within mortal range of ability and mortals can and do pose a threat and using the power to excel draws more attention to you. Its been an issue in the game since late 1st edition. The "Elder problem" isn't only about Elders.
Aberrant had the same issues (you're a god but there's all these more powerful gods) but at least the PCs weren't starting off inimical to so many of them (and the general population. Nova weren't anathema).
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900127The thing is, it's always been that way. Want to knock off Ma-Ha-Suchi and put an end to his barbarous rape camps and plans to destroy civilization? You can't. He's an Essence 4-5 Lunar with all the bells and whistles that implies. Unless the GM nerfs the crap out of him, he's going to destroy the average Circle, and you certainly aren't going to get any Lunar allies to help, since they're complicit in his madness.
Most of the named antagonists are like that. Mostly because they're centuries old, and have not just personal power but social and infrastructure that you simply can't amass. The game simply isn't about shacking up the setting and more about dealing with little problems and making sure you don't draw to much attention less your betters fuck you up.
Well, yes. But that's been a flaw with ALL WW games. It's just that WW had been promising to fix this for Exalted, the problem is, it didn't in any edition, but it got it's players to BELIEVE. Which is why if you do play Exalted, it's assumed you're going to hand wave most of the inconsistencies away.
Quote from: Whitewings;900181In a typical D&D game, Undead McLicherson doesn't want the PCs dead. Personally. As individuals. In Exalted, he does want dead. Personally. As an individual. He will throw whatever resources he can at you, and he has a lot of resources that you don't and can't have simply because he's actively and aggressively leveraging his own resources to ensure you accomplish nothing before you die. And it's not just him and his massive support organization: you've got the huge, ancient dragon over there, and over there you've the epic level evil priests, and down in the Lower Planes you have some arch-devils.
B.S.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900184Because it was created in a vacuum by SJWs who pandered to a shrill choir of other SJWs. It was touted to be built from the ground up, but wasn't and it's selling points were its name and a shitty trans sig. Anyone who dared call OPP out on their bullshit in any venue OPP had a modicum of control over, were silenced at worst and ignored at best. The only people who had a voice were the kneeling, open-mouthed sheep who had the same views as they did.
So? I don't agree that often with Pundit's ideology. Doesn't mean Lords of Olympus sucks.
QuoteThe game is a bloated mess of rules upon rules created to appease people who don't even play RPGs and the only reason it's gotten any traction is heritage and a desperation to see a hopeful idea realized. This, "It's got some good stuff in there" defense is weak; one good head of lettuce in a field of rotting mulch does not a harvest make.
Except, of course, it's far from one good head of lettuce. It's more like one bad head of lettuce.
QuoteDoes it work for you? It seems so. You make it fun and good for you.
Exactly.
QuoteHowever, give it time. 2nd Ed was a hands-free Fleshlight with neverending lube when it was first released but it didn't take long for the cracks to show.
Your mechanical competence leaves a lot to be desired if you think that everything that made Ex2 a problem to run wasn't there from the corebook;).
QuoteEx3 started with cracks and they've been filling them in with the tears of SJWs ever since the leak.
So, the wider the cracks, the better:D?
Quote from: The Butcher;900191Your point nicely illustrates the benefits of D&D's (and other games') zero-to-hero structure versus Exalted's (and other games') starting out as a superhero.
Managing archvillains in any game is tricky business. You want players to bridge the power gap within a time frame that allows for a villain's plans to progress (setting up some urgency) without fully coming to fruition (or it would be all in vain), while in the meantime PCs work their way through the enemy hierarchy and/or plans-within-plans.
I can't really vouch for how this would work with Ma-Ha-Suchi or the Mask of Winters ir any other Exalted antagonist as I am only passingly familiar with Exalted canon. But in my experience, to keep a campaign-long interest in an antagonist requires these three things: (1) a villainous goal that gets players and their characters invested in stopping them; (2) a structure of sprawling plans and an army of henchmen/women/robots/whatever that can be engaged at different junctures of a campaign; (3) strictly optionally, a power gap that can be sufficiently bridged (if and only if you want a climactic final confrontation with the prime mover of evil. Classic adventures from Dragonlance to Masks of Nyarlathotep do fine without those!)
The thing with Exalted is that, by dint of being "epic" and "super", it can't always get away with #3 being optional. No one expects Caramon to punch Takhisis in the face, or your neurasthenic New England professor to go Gustaf Johansen on Nyarlathotep's ass. I suppose most Solar OCs with a lick of good sense might conform to never beating a Neverborn, but not being able to eventually personally put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans can be a bummer (if that is indeed the case).
Thing is, that's a rather good analysis of the standard D&D-inspired* structure. But it's not the case that you can never put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans. Been there, seen it.
*I'd argue it wasn't there from the start, since archvillains seems to be a later invention:p.
Quote from: Michael Gray;900215In a typical Exalted game Ma-Ha-Suchi does not want the PCs dead. He likely doesn't know who the PCs are. Yeah, if they come in as starting characters and try to act like big swinging dicks to the Elder God Beast that rules an entire nation of goat-dudes? They will probably be fucked. That's not a problem with the setting or the game. That's a problem with the player's being idiots and getting kacked for it. And yes starting Exalts are supposed to be more powerful than mortals, but you still have to be smart about your abilities.
Precisely.
QuoteAbout the only people you can legitimately say want to kill your guy from the get go are some Elder Sidereals. And they won't know where you are and mostly work through lackeys because they're too busy being Masters of the World to go do their actual job. Like literally Chejop Kejak spends most of his time with the religious head of the Immaculate Order or in Heaven. He has goons to kill you. That's how he rolls.
The above is confirmed in every corebook of the system from 1e to 3e included.
Quote from: Nexus;900240Ma-ha-Suchi might not know who the PCs are but he will know of what the PCs are. In Exalted reputedly they're not just some other schlub noobie Adventurer. They're Exalted, Solar Exalted, the legendary lords and god kings from a by gone age. They are a big deal not Joe Fighter. Suchi most definitely be highly interested in them if they pop on his radar while the hypothetical Lichy McLichface likely won't give a damn about Joe the Fighter and Jane the mage unless they come knocking on his door, perhaps not even then. MHS is pretty pissed at Solars and concerned about their return and that they can fuck up his plans while someone drawn to them.
And they don't have to fight him to the death. If it was a lich, would you feel weird that 1st level adventurers have to run?
QuoteDeathlords are presented know full well what Solars and actively seek them out to convert or destroy
They have fucking empires in the Underworld, Abyssals to abuse and control, and are competing among themselves.
QuoteThe Immaculate Order, the state religion of the largest empire in the world considers it their holy duty to eliminate then and even in their currently "weakened" state can and will send small armies to back the specially trained hit squads of Terrestrials (which particularly in 3rd aren't significantly less potent than the PC and can outnumber them 2-3 times to one).
The so called Wyld Hunt is called out in every Exalted Corebook since 1e where it says that it is underfunded, and the Sidereals are busy doing other things so it lacks the ability to find them via astrological means, and the Terrestrials are pulling every single soldier even from the satrapies...
QuoteThere is an entire faction Sidereals that have a vested interest in killing Solars,
Which means there's a fraction of Sidereals, i.e. much less than 100, vs. 150 Solars. And they have to deal with another 150 Solaroids, and Deathlords, and rogue demons, and mad wizards, and yozi cultists, and most importantly of all, they have to ensure their longest-lasting project, i.e. The Realm and the Immaculate Faith, survive with as little damage as possible.
Yeah, sure, I feel really threatened...no wait, I don't:D!
Quoteincluding having access to charms and abilities that will guide them to you. Its what they do for the Wyld Hunt: point out Solar anathema.
Addressed explicitly above.
QuoteAnd if the Hunt can't handle them they send in "Grandmother of Assassins" (which is actually a pretty fitting name for the setting).
Which then fails and becomes an asset for the Solars in question.
QuoteIts possible to avoid them but it means laying very low and hiding your abilities as much as possible and game more like a vampire in WoD than an "epic hero".
You mean, like Achilles before the start of the Iliad?
QuoteThen there are various gods and entities that dot every important region that also know what the solars are and most of them would rather not see them return.
On the contrary, they know that the Solars are the righteous rulers of Creation.
QuoteHell, the fiction is full of examples of power beings seeking Solars out rather than the Solar "swinging their dicks" and picking fights they knew they couldn't win, the story of Dace aside.
The fiction is also full of examples about what said beings do instead of this. Why do you ignore them and assume that looking out for Solars isn't the exception, if it makes your game worse?
QuoteAnd its not just elders they're just the most graphic illustration of the issue because they're so swollen beyond PC levels its abundantly clear they're untouchable
Bwahahaha, I'm glad my players never knew that:D! Because they've beaten the Lover Clad In A Raiment Of Tears in social combat, various other Deathlords and Elders in physical combat, and so on.
I was using the official stats, BTW. I think they even defeated a wargod where I got lazy enough and used the stats of Ahlat instead, removing a point of Essence.
Quotebut any more experienced opponents can fit the bill especially with earlier edition particularly lethal combat where you might be dead before you know you're losing, Quotethey're almost everywhere
and most of them have a grudge against you.
There are 700 Celestials and circa 50 000 DBs or so in 5 huge Directions. No, they're not "everywhere", unless you want them to be, and if you avoid the centers of power until you get more experienced, you can easily avoid meeting even a single one.
And if you can't deal with Fair Folk and goddamn 1st level demons, you're a failure as an Exalted anyway and should give the Exaltation to someone more suitable for the task;).
QuoteThe problem isn't that powerful beings exist in the setting is that most of are so powerful and informed that if they exert any effort at all they can wipe the PCs out
The problem is that you're mixing the above, which is your fanon, with the canon. Which explicitly says they lack resources.
QuoteAnd adapting to that create a different mood from what on the box: laying low, fleeing contact and begging more powerful beings for protection
Amazingly, that's how a few well-known stories begin:
The story of Musashi Miamoto, who starts as part of a defeated army.
The story of frigging Hercules, who has to run from the wrath of his "godstepmother", and serve a non-heroic mortal while Hercules becomes powerful enough to help the gods against the Titans.
The story of the frigging Monkey King, who makes a big ruckus, and in punishment is given a task...
If your players want something more powerful than that, my advice would be to cut down on watching the latest seasons of frigging DBZ:D!
Quote"They have better things to do" just drives home the disconnect between hype, the fluff and the reality.
"They have better things to do" is just the explanation for why the Solars-ganking system which worked like a Swiss clock until then, suddenly allows PCs to thrive and prosper;).
Quote from: Michael Gray;900215In a typical Exalted game Ma-Ha-Suchi does not want the PCs dead. He likely doesn't know who the PCs are. Yeah, if they come in as starting characters and try to act like big swinging dicks to the Elder God Beast that rules an entire nation of goat-dudes? They will probably be fucked. That's not a problem with the setting or the game. That's a problem with the player's being idiots and getting kacked for it. And yes starting Exalts are supposed to be more powerful than mortals, but you still have to be smart about your abilities.
Quote from: Nexus;900240Ma-ha-Suchi might not know who the PCs are but he will know of what the PCs are. In Exalted reputedly they're not just some other schlub noobie Adventurer. They're Exalted, Solar Exalted, the legendary lords and god kings from a by gone age. They are a big deal not Joe Fighter. Suchi most definitely be highly interested in them if they pop on his radar while the hypothetical Lichy McLichface likely won't give a damn about Joe the Fighter and Jane the mage unless they come knocking on his door, perhaps not even then. MHS is pretty pissed at Solars and concerned about their return and that they can fuck up his plans while someone drawn to them.
Well, it seems some GM discretion goes a long way here. You don't want the badass [strike]broo[/strike] proprietary White Wolf rape goatman king to come down from his throne and kick your starting PCs' asses.
Even if he is aware of the Exalt PCs, he may ignore them as long as they don't interfere with his plans.
When/if they do, he may still dispatch followers and lieutenants to thwart, intimidate and capture them. They may even be content to trash the PCs' domain, burning crops, kidnapping people for their camps and other assorted non-murdering malfeasance, making PCs' lives miserable without touching a hair on their heads.
If PCs are foolhardy enough to go out and face down a foe beyond their league, well, sucks to be them. But even then he may be content to humiliate them, amd semd them packing with their tails between their legs, and demand human tribute from them. Lots of way to milk this for several sessions' worth of PC misery (and hopefully magnificent long-term revenge plans).
Quote from: AsenRG;900261Thing is, that's a rather good analysis of the standard D&D-inspired* structure. But it's not the case that you can never put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans. Been there, seen it.
If Ma-Ha-Suchi is a defeatable enemy, the "D&D-inspired structure" I mentioned fully applies. Exalted does allow for PCs to "level up" and bridge a power gap.
If he's not, well, it still applies. To mantain the Dragonlance analogy (God, I feel
filthy) he's Takhisis, instead of being some particularly badass Dragonlord.
Quote from: AsenRG;900261*I'd argue it wasn't there from the start, since archvillains seems to be a later invention:p.
Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign had an archvillain, the Egg of Coot. And of course, before that, he had two antagonistic groups of "good guy" PCs and "bad guy" PCs. But your definition of "archvillain" may vary. ;)
You'd also have to play them stupid for them to allow a nest of solars to reach their eventual heights of power. Best to kill them now while they're young and weak then let them build back to what they once were (even its going to take centuries. Exalts live thousands of years). Heck, Suchi and most of these guys don't have to step in personally to do it. Many of their lieutenants and hench things can squash newbies solars. For most of these guys it would be essentially trivial effort to eliminate or at least reset a potentially large problem down the line. For that matter, there's an entire powerful virtually Creation spanning organization you can rat them out to to your dirty work for them. Suchi and his ilk are supposed to be some of the canniest most intelligent beings in the setting. A few of them might be the arrogant but all of them?
Its a bit like if the BBEG of some fantasy series knew from the beginning about the little nobody adventurers that were going to gank in a few decades (or a century or more) and has plenty of resources to destroy them easily.
In spite of all the internet hype I've never seen besting Solars be that hard in any play I've participated in. They biggest thing they have going in reincarnation. They keep popping back up but its a reset button. Not much since in letting the moles get bigger and meaner and they'll be others whacking them too. And not just "elders" but almost anyone of substance in the setting has a huge step forward on PCs and a reason to see them crushed and quickly. You can handwave that and assume they always send out appropriately scaled opposition but that flies into while more realistic schtick Exalted has going. Hell, I had to softball groups for years trying to run the game. GMing can fix allot of issues but that doesn't mean they are not there.
And if you're "supposed" to bunker down, hide your abilities and live in fear until that eventual day you can make a difference that's a viable playstyle but that doesn't seem to be how the game has been billed and hyped for the past 10 yrs.
I think this thread illustrate some of the problems players have with the game and setting.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?782337-Exalted-Tastes-and-Superheroes-(tangent-from-Sell-me-Exalted-3e)
Even in previous editions, Lunars were always supposed to be the setting equivalent of Garou: Billy badass. Their role in the structure was to be mated to a given Solar and act as their bodyguard. So consider how powerful you'd have to be to be a Solar's bodyguard.
Likewise Ma Ha Suchi being that much more ridiculous makes sense. Some Lunars have survived in one incarnation since the previous Age and the PCs haven't. If we think of elder Lunars and Sidereals as "20th level characters" it makes sense that PCs could bridge the gap, although given the level of intrigue in the setting you would have to figure out how to compete on that level and build a power base just to survive. Hopefully a given GM would build his campaign on that premise and not just Monster of the Week.
So it doesn't disturb me that some people are (now) more powerful than Solars. It disturbs me that the threats to a beginning Solar seem to have been ramped up from where they were in previous editions, such that, say, Dragon-Bloods are more at parity. But then the real contradiction is that in keeping with the epic stories, Exalted books have always- always, always- emphasized that all people in Creation are NOT created equal, and that by dint of reincarnation or some luck, your character who could have been peasant or local king is brought to the level of the greats, potentially even better than the Empress' nobility. This doesn't jibe with modern people's expectations of humanist equality. It didn't in the previous editions and it sure as hell doesn't to the PC crowd that has eaten RPG.net and the WW/OP community. So you have something pretty close to the cartoon stereotype of giving everybody a trophy so that everybody gets to be "special" and nobody feels left out.
JG
So what you're saying James, is that although WW touted that the Solars were the top of the food chain, they actually weren't because they needed Shapeshifting Bodyguards to protect them? So White Wolf lied to it's players, again, straight from the gate.
Good to know.
Quote from: James Gillen;900316Even in previous editions, Lunars were always supposed to be the setting equivalent of Garou: Billy badass. Their role in the structure was to be mated to a given Solar and act as their bodyguard. So consider how powerful you'd have to be to be a Solar's bodyguard.
The Lunars were consorts and partners of the Solar Exalted. Some served as bodyguards for their less combat focused mates, others were spies, assassins, lieutenants, lovers, etc. Apparently slaves was added in 3rd implying Desus and Lilith's warped relationship is going to be treated more as the norm.
And oh the endless bitching about the Lunar Bond mechanics...
QuoteLikewise Ma Ha Suchi being that much more ridiculous makes sense. Some Lunars have survived in one incarnation since the previous Age and the PCs haven't. If we think of elder Lunars and Sidereals as "20th level characters" it makes sense that PCs could bridge the gap, although given the level of intrigue in the setting you would have to figure out how to compete on that level and build a power base just to survive. Hopefully a given GM would build his campaign on that premise and not just Monster of the Week.
So it doesn't disturb me that some people are (now) more powerful than Solars.
I agree. Its not the mere existence of powerful beings that's (I hate this word) problematic. Its the set up which includes so many of them and put Solar PCs almost immediately in their sights. It might have been better if the Solars were long forgotten after being locked away for so long but with so many immortal and long lived being in the setting (some of which are trying to keeo them enshrined as "anathema") that doesn't really work in Setting as written. The return of the Solars is trumpted as Big Deal that everyone who's anyone is aware of and concerned about.
QuoteIt disturbs me that the threats to a beginning Solar seem to have been ramped up from where they were in previous editions, such that, say, Dragon-Bloods are more at parity. But then the real contradiction is that in keeping with the epic stories, Exalted books have always- always, always- emphasized that all people in Creation are NOT created equal, and that by dint of reincarnation or some luck, your character who could have been peasant or local king is brought to the level of the greats, potentially even better than the Empress' nobility. This doesn't jibe with modern people's expectations of humanist equality. It didn't in the previous editions and it sure as hell doesn't to the PC crowd that has eaten RPG.net and the WW/OP community. So you have something pretty close to the cartoon stereotype of giving everybody a trophy so that everybody gets to be "special" and nobody feels left out.
I definitely agree with you. It causes a little dissonance to see arguments about classical period ethics and ideas of morality and heroism in one breath and then calls for equality and modern "social justice" to be in forefront in the next. The push for some kind of equality has been going on for some time particularly for the Dragonblooded though it skews the setting to some degree. If DB are largely equivalent to Celestials/Solars, many times more numerous and self replicating it changes the dynamic.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;900339So what you're saying James, is that although WW touted that the Solars were the top of the food chain, they actually weren't because they needed Shapeshifting Bodyguards to protect them? So White Wolf lied to it's players, again, straight from the gate.
Good to know.
There's been discussions about how its a bad idea to look at the different types of Exalts as "character classes" meant to fulfill certain niches in a "party". The intention wasn't for their to be a "fighty" Exalted and a "stealthy" type, etc. They'd have their strength and weaknesses but wouldn't be flat out lacking in a single broad area. Basically, the different splats weren't initially meant for cross group play. But that's become the popular mode and its fed the push for parity among the different types.
Quote from: James Gillen;900316So you have something pretty close to the cartoon stereotype of giving everybody a trophy so that everybody gets to be "special" and nobody feels left out.
JG
What was crazy is I remember the 2e meltdowns people would have whenever any Exalt type could hand a Solar's ass to them. Mentioning that this was possible would trigger emotional outbursts to the magnitude you've never seen.
I mean, you should have seen people absolutely lose it when Alchemical Exalts could be demonstrably as effective as some folks' Lunars and Solars. I really did love my
Armored Cyborg Chainsaw-Karate Batman Inquisitor: Electric Boogaloo character.
Quote from: James Gillen;900316Even in previous editions, Lunars were always supposed to be the setting equivalent of Garou: Billy badass. Their role in the structure was to be mated to a given Solar and act as their bodyguard. So consider how powerful you'd have to be to be a Solar's bodyguard.
Except the part where this isn't true. They're the ultimate generalists, and cover whichever areas the Solar has issues with.
QuoteIf we think of elder Lunars and Sidereals as "20th level characters" it makes sense that PCs could bridge the gap, although given the level of intrigue in the setting you would have to figure out how to compete on that level and build a power base just to survive. Hopefully a given GM would build his campaign on that premise and not just Monster of the Week.
That part, however, is true:).
QuoteSo it doesn't disturb me that some people are (now) more powerful than Solars. It disturbs me that the threats to a beginning Solar seem to have been ramped up from where they were in previous editions, such that, say, Dragon-Bloods are more at parity.
If you mean 3e, it's also a much bigger setting, making it that much harder to get a group to focus against you.
QuoteBut then the real contradiction is that in keeping with the epic stories, Exalted books have always- always, always- emphasized that all people in Creation are NOT created equal, and that by dint of reincarnation or some luck, your character who could have been peasant or local king is brought to the level of the greats, potentially even better than the Empress' nobility. This doesn't jibe with modern people's expectations of humanist equality. It didn't in the previous editions and it sure as hell doesn't to the PC crowd that has eaten RPG.net and the WW/OP community. So you have something pretty close to the cartoon stereotype of giving everybody a trophy so that everybody gets to be "special" and nobody feels left out.
That's not a contradiction that concerns me.
Quote from: Nexus;900341The Lunars were consorts and partners of the Solar Exalted. Some served as bodyguards for their less combat focused mates, others were spies, assassins, lieutenants, lovers, etc. Apparently slaves was added in 3rd implying Desus and Lilith's warped relationship is going to be treated more as the norm.
I've missed the slaves part, and I don't really see it, but whatever. Whatever rocks their boats...
QuoteAnd oh the endless bitching about the Lunar Bond mechanics...
Indeed, and that is going to be fun:p!
QuoteI agree. Its not the mere existence of powerful beings that's (I hate this word) problematic. Its the set up which includes so many of them and put Solar PCs almost immediately in their sights. It might have been better if the Solars were long forgotten after being locked away for so long but with so many immortal and long lived being in the setting (some of which are trying to keeo them enshrined as "anathema") that doesn't really work in Setting as written. The return of the Solars is trumpted as Big Deal that everyone who's anyone is aware of and concerned about.
The problem is with the whole logic "they must be stupid to not off the Solars". No, they're not stupid.
I know a great car that will perfectly fit my needs, seldom needs repair, and is quite economic. The only problem? I can't afford it.
Do you think that not buying it makes me stupid, or something:D?
They have the same issue.
QuoteI definitely agree with you. It causes a little dissonance to see arguments about classical period ethics and ideas of morality and heroism in one breath and then calls for equality and modern "social justice" to be in forefront in the next. The push for some kind of equality has been going on for some time particularly for the Dragonblooded though it skews the setting to some degree. If DB are largely equivalent to Celestials/Solars, many times more numerous and self replicating it changes the dynamic.
But I really am not seeing the DBs as largely equivalent. The Solars in my campaign so far trump them at every single step;).
The comment on Lunars being slaves to the Solars comes from the glossary. There's a definite implication that they used start out that way, or at least decidedly submissive, in the section on them in the "Exalted types" section with the full page illustrations, but an equally strong one that they didn't normally stay that way, and a pretty clear statement that they don't want to go back to that.
Quote from: AsenRG;900357The problem is with the whole logic "they must be stupid to not off the Solars". No, they're not stupid.
I know a great car that will perfectly fit my needs, seldom needs repair, and is quite economic. The only problem? I can't afford it.
Do you think that not buying it makes me stupid, or something:D?
They have the same issue.
No they don't. They have more than enough disposable income to be able to deal with a newly emerged group of Solars. And even if they don't everyone has the fallback of calling on the Immaculate Order to handle the problem for them. And the Immaculate Order has the disposable income to deal with a group.
What no one necessarily has, the disposable income to monitor all of Creation and determine when a new group of Solars pops up, is covered by the Bronze (IIRC) faction of the Sidereals. The original source of the Elders problem. And since they essentially control or direct the Immaculate Order it means that a kill squad should be on their way shortly. Even if they don't spot the issue the first little god the Circle deposes will come bitching back to the Celestial Order about how some reincarnated pricks kicked him out of his plush spot and suddenly the Immaculate Order is on the case.
Maybe you don't have the disposable income nor the social network to cover the cost of a better car and for that I feel sorry for you. But there are plenty of mechanisms in the Anti-Solar social network that are functioning properly enough to be able to deal with it immediately. So that little god can't deal with them himself but big bad Judo-Chop Ketchup (or whatever the crap his real name was) is always there to deal with them.
I remember more bitching, particularly in 2e about how overpowered the Solars are and need to cut back and "balanbced" including long rants about they "ruin" the game if they even remotely live up to their hype. And as far in game experiences I participated in and actually witnesses that was never true. Siolars weren't thar powerful and any of the Exalt types could kick their ass. I saw this in actual games and various combat arena style competitions where you just made up the most optimized battler and fought it out. There were some possible builds that were lopsided with Solars but they weren't their baseline and all the splats had them like Lunar combatant I saw that ended with 20+ attacks (at full dice pool) a turn.
Most of the Alchemical griping I recall was about their presentation in the "The Locust Crusade" as running roughshod over the established powers in Creation during their invastion like beatign the Realm navy despite having no experience with naval combat and similar events. The "meltdowns" about Solar (and sometimes Lunar) abilities that I recall generally stemmed from people getting fed up with the hype that "Solars are the mightiest and most powerful of the Exalted and Lunars a close second being belied by the steady introduction of splats that equaled or exceeded them which, IMO, overtly began with SMA but the later splats ,more polished charms sets just functioned and synergized better culminating in Infernals and also fit in with the general power escalation over the course of the line.
Quote from: Whitewings;900390The comment on Lunars being slaves to the Solars comes from the glossary. There's a definite implication that they used start out that way, or at least decidedly submissive, in the section on them in the "Exalted types" section with the full page illustrations, but an equally strong one that they didn't normally stay that way, and a pretty clear statement that they don't want to go back to that.
Oh, thanks, so it's from one of the parts I skipped. I thought that since I've been running games of Exalted for almost a decade, on and off, what can a glossary surprise me with;)?
Obvious flaws with the logic are less flaws and more like features when you consider that I approach Exalted, and all settings, with the assumption that "everything I don't think makes sense will be edited with extreme prejudice":).
Quote from: KingCheops;900392No they don't. They have more than enough disposable income to be able to deal with a newly emerged group of Solars. And even if they don't everyone has the fallback of calling on the Immaculate Order to handle the problem for them. And the Immaculate Order has the disposable income to deal with a group.
:D
Man, read again your post and my post.
You're talking about
disposable income.I'm talking about
resources, of which disposable income is only one, and in Exalted, not necessarily the most important one.
Also,
the Immaculate order knows there's Anathema around! They just can't afford the time to do much about anything but the most egregious cases, because
there's big fucking issues with their powerbase!In short,
they're in damage control mode, doing the bare minimum to not lose much influence. Are you THE most brutal offender in the vicinity? When there's fairies and runaway demons and stuff (which, yes, are equally important for now, since the Order needs to make good appearances - it's a goddamned religion, you know)? You'd need to do some serious stuf. It is possible if your Exalted thinks that "subtlety" is between "submitting" and "sucking" in the damned dictionary - but then do you really expect to achieve lasting successes with a guy like that:)?
Actually, speaking about subtlety - is it even clear that you're a Solar and not a Lunar, Outcaste, Exigeant or rampaging spirit, ghost, demon or fairy? (If it's obvious: you either like playing it risky, or you're an idiot. I like playing it risky, for the record).
If' you're the most important offender and be so kind as to meet the hit squad, yes. You earned it. Consequences necessarily can be both good and bad!
You know how you make any empire retreat? You attack its capital and its most valuable resource centers. The Immaculates and the Sidereals have got this since Her Scarlet Magnificence disappeared from the throne. They did carry on with it for a couple years, which is why it wasn't clear immediately.
But by now, they should be in panic. They have all reasons to: someone stole their main asset from under their noses.
Oh yes, they have to look for the Empress as well, now that we mention it...;)
QuoteWhat no one necessarily has, the disposable income to monitor all of Creation and determine when a new group of Solars pops up, is covered by the Bronze (IIRC) faction of the Sidereals. The original source of the Elders problem.
Exalted 1e solves that by explicitly telling you that the Sidereal astrologers need to monitor the Houses now, and can't produce astrological premonitions on Solars. Why do you want to contradict the corebook when it's explicitly solving your issues?
Note, I'm pretty sure I read something similar in Ex3 as well. It's just that I don't remember it well enough to reference it, and the last Exalted book I read was the 1e Corebook (which also has the best succinct explanation of the setting;)).
QuoteAnd since they essentially control or direct the Immaculate Order it means that a kill squad should be on their way shortly. Even if they don't spot the issue the first little god the Circle deposes will come bitching back to the Celestial Order about how some reincarnated pricks kicked him out of his plush spot and suddenly the Immaculate Order is on the case.
That example, however, is why you don't just kick a god's ass
and expect it to have no consequences. Either Ghost Eat him, Eclipse Bind him, or use some of your social charms to persuade him to serve you (or at least not rat you). All of them come with potential issues; the easier it is to do, the more it makes sure that you earn the title of "most egregious threat to meet a hit squad"
when it is discovered.
QuoteMaybe you don't have the disposable income nor the social network to cover the cost of a better car and for that I feel sorry for you.
Don't, it was just an example:D! I was explicitly thinking about a rather expensive car.
Let's leave it at that, because that's not a thread about cars.
QuoteBut there are plenty of mechanisms in the Anti-Solar social network that are functioning properly enough to be able to deal with it immediately. So that little god can't deal with them himself but big bad Judo-Chop Ketchup (or whatever the crap his real name was) is always there to deal with them.
Yes, of course...except he is established as signing off death warrants, not dealing with stuff himself. In essence, he's like a tour figure in chess: he's where he needs to be to guard the Empire, and ensure you're not going to be checkmated in a couple turns.
And he's good at that. He's also doubling at ensuring a threat, just like that tour. But he's not going to involve himself personally, yet. You're not that important to require that he weakens temporarily the protection of the Empire!
Can he misjudge when it's time? Of course. In fact, making him misjudge is what the game is about!
Or, if you don't manage that, you make him fail the assassination attempt by surviving - and if necessary, by running away and possibly, rebuilding.
And no, Exalted is not about succeeding while ignoring subtlety*. At worst, that can make you fail, at best, it would grant that you succeed at much greater cost.
If you want a rule of thumb for Exalted antagonists, it's this: They always want more than they have the resources for. No, that's not stupid: they need most of what they want. And they often can get it, but not at once.
Any Referee should establish their list of priorities, including "ganking the PCs or subverting them for his or her goals", and make sure to update it regularly. One thing will be granted: the list is three times longer than the available resource points, and many items require more than one resource point to be guaranteed to succeed, and maybe even more to be achieved flawlessly...
You know, like a certain mechanic in Godbound, except with added "flawed success":p!
*Though the people that want to turn it into a mecha game might wish it was;). It's a regular topic of contention between me and some other posters on RPG.net, SilvercatMoonpaw being the first in the shortlist:D.
We may be at cross purposes because all my experience is with 2nd not 1st and we are in thread about 3rd where we are explicitly pixel bitching about issues that started in 2nd. From everything I've heard about 1st there seem to be MAJOR differences in how the setting works and is presented between the two editions and 3rd is continuing on from the base of 2nd. I certainly don't recall any mention of this astrology difficulty in 2nd (I fully accept I could be wrong since that is 10 years and 1 baby+1 on the way ago and Exalted was never anywhere near a #1 system/setting for me).
I think we can all understand the underlying point you are making -- that we can easily make it hard for the enemies to actually deal with a new group of Solar Exalts.
However that is not at all what the books present in 2nd at the very least. You very explicitly have to make up some ground rules and probably explain them to your table to make sure everyone is on the same page. You certainly have to do a butt-ton more exposition in character for Exalted that you'd like ever have to do for just about any game I can think to make sure they understand how all of this works. "No mister Dawn we can't just slap down Gozer the Gozerian and free those people because my Twilight Lore lets me know that he'd just disappear back to Heaven and lodge a complaint with the Bureaucracy which would bring attention to us so let's let the Eclipse claim to be a God unless one of us happens to know how to eat his soul."
Quote from: Nexus;900292I think this thread illustrate some of the problems players have with the game and setting.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?782337-Exalted-Tastes-and-Superheroes-(tangent-from-Sell-me-Exalted-3e)
That's an odd thread.
You know that is not what people expected when they bought the book. When a person who is new to the game buys Exalted and/or Godbound they expect what is advertise. You play a demigod of immense power and the capability to change the world. In Godbound you do exactly that.
In Exalted if you try doing that your gonna get problems because the setting isn't built like that. You got to hide till your uber enough to expose yourself. If people understood that they may not even bother. It isn't what people expected and if the advertisements were more honest you would not get this issue.
Quote from: Snowman0147;900478You know that is not what people expected when they bought the book. When a person who is new to the game buys Exalted and/or Godbound they expect what is advertise. You play a demigod of immense power and the capability to change the world. In Godbound you do exactly that.
It also depends on which type you're playing. It was much more fun to play an Abyssal or Alchemical in 2e than it was to play a Solar. I mean, being a Solar was so neutered by the setting- we played as if the Solars
never returned, and all of them became Abyssals or Infernals. But that's White Wolf shit for you.
If White Wolf was a parent, they'd buy you a shiny new bicycle and then tell you that you can only ride it in the driveway.
Quote from: Snowman0147;900478In Exalted if you try doing that your gonna get problems because the setting isn't built like that. You got to hide till your uber enough to expose yourself. If people understood that they may not even bother. It isn't what people expected and if the advertisements were more honest you would not get this issue.
And I've read it's even less like that, and almost generic fantasy nowadays. The 'epic' scale of it is taken down.
Quote from: Crüesader;900479And I've read it's even less like that, and almost generic fantasy nowadays. The 'epic' scale of it is taken down.
Then why bother? Play Game of Thrones, or the game that RPGPundit made. Sorry Pundit, but I cannot spell that word to save my life. Back to the point. You get a better experience from those two than Exalted.
Quote from: Snowman0147;900481Then why bother? Play Game of Thrones, or the game that RPGPundit made. Sorry Pundit, but I cannot spell that word to save my life. Back to the point. You get a better experience from those two than Exalted.
Because people still believe the hype, and frankly, because Exalted is not much of a system, it's easy to twist and hand wave the problems away. Or so the various players convince themselves.
Quote from: KingCheops;900441We may be at cross purposes because all my experience is with 2nd not 1st and we are in thread about 3rd where we are explicitly pixel bitching about issues that started in 2nd. From everything I've heard about 1st there seem to be MAJOR differences in how the setting works and is presented between the two editions and 3rd is continuing on from the base of 2nd.
"No" on both accounts.
First, that's not the root of our disagreements, because
my experience is also with 2nd edition. Already the 2e corebook was enough to give me the idea that the Wyld Hunt doesn't have the resources to act at full capacity, including finding you if you lay low. I might search for the relevant passage tonight, if you wish. (Once again, I reference 1e because it's my latest acquisition in Exalted - currently reading Ex1e: Sidereals, BTW. This also means I've never used the 1e info before my 3e game was in full swing, I only bought it recently due to the opinions that it presents the setting better than 2e did!)
Second, the 3e setting is explicitly and implicitly reverting more towards a 1e aesthetic and does as much as possible to avoid 2e influence! That's coupled with solving some issues some of the particularly vocal fans have been complaining about for years (I guess I wasn't vocal enough).
QuoteI certainly don't recall any mention of this astrology difficulty in 2nd (I fully accept I could be wrong since that is 10 years and 1 baby+1 on the way ago and Exalted was never anywhere near a #1 system/setting for me).
I do remember it from 2e, though. (Also, glad for the baby and the baby on the way:)! Fuck Exalted - we can disagree about it all we want, but those are the important things in life!)
QuoteI think we can all understand the underlying point you are making -- that we can easily make it hard for the enemies to actually deal with a new group of Solar Exalts.
It's more like "the setting is written as if a malevolent will has released the Solars exactly when the Anti-Solar Defence would be at its weakest"...wait, did I say "as if":D?
But yeah, for practical intents and purposes, that's it;).
QuoteHowever that is not at all what the books present in 2nd at the very least. You very explicitly have to make up some ground rules and probably explain them to your table to make sure everyone is on the same page. You certainly have to do a butt-ton more exposition in character for Exalted that you'd like ever have to do for just about any game I can think to make sure they understand how all of this works. "No mister Dawn we can't just slap down Gozer the Gozerian and free those people because my Twilight Lore lets me know that he'd just disappear back to Heaven and lodge a complaint with the Bureaucracy which would bring attention to us so let's let the Eclipse claim to be a God unless one of us happens to know how to eat his soul."
I am reasonably sure that this is exactly what the books present in 2e, too.
As for ground rules, you need them in any good setting.
Quote from: Snowman0147;900478You know that is not what people expected when they bought the book. When a person who is new to the game buys Exalted and/or Godbound they expect what is advertise. You play a demigod of immense power and the capability to change the world. In Godbound you do exactly that.
In Exalted if you try doing that your gonna get problems because the setting isn't built like that. You got to hide till your uber enough to expose yourself. If people understood that they may not even bother. It isn't what people expected and if the advertisements were more honest you would not get this issue.
Why? I mean, was I the only one who expected exactly what I got, due to the same advertisement?
I'm seriously wondering, here.
Also, you do change the world in Exalted 2e, and you did change it quite seriously with starting characters. What starting PCs had trouble achieving was
making sure the changes last.Quote from: Crüesader;900479And I've read it's even less like that, and almost generic fantasy nowadays. The 'epic' scale of it is taken down.
Not. In. My. Experience.
Quick, show of hands! Exactly how many of the people passing judgement on Ex3
are actually playing it? AFAICT, I'm the only one so far.
Also, what do you all think of people that condemn D&D without having tried it;)?
Quote from: Snowman0147;900481Then why bother?
Because the statement is simply untrue;).
And again...maybe for you, Asen.
I for one, have a lot of similar experiences like the posters you are so long windedly writing against. Exalted was advertised to be about Demigods...tag lines in the line of "not like dnd, you get to be badass from the very first moment" etc etc . You were promised to play movers and shakers of the setting FROM THE FUCKING START.
And then you play it and....nothing, nada... if you play it by RAW, that is. That you, Asen, can twist and turn the setting and the rules as you see fit...i believe you in an instant (because you tell us that in many other threads here or on rpg.net how much you know systems and houserule them to suit your needs)...but that is not what every GM can or even wants to do.
So yeah, agreeing whole-heartedly with other posters here that Exalted never kept what it promised in RAW.
I absolutely agree that you can have that game, if you want to and if the GM plays along (or if you are the GM, if you are willing to change lots of stuff so that it plays like advertised by WW back in the day).
Oh and if it was not clear...i'm talking about "out of the gate with a new edition" aka if you play Solars. All those advertisements are mostly about the main splat. "Evolve your game!"...yeah, right! :rolleyes:
The infamous "Jon Chung Exalted," with its paranoia Combos and a minimum survival package that took up 8 of a Solar's initial ten Charms and required certain Attributes and Abilities at 5 each, was something Jon Chung himself detested. But it was a direct consequence of the rules as written and the setting as presented. Using both, there were literally no other build options that would allow a Solar to live long enough to become personally powerful enough to even attempt to accumulate political or economic power.
I am sick of this. AsenRG you need to hear this. Using your private game is a SHITTY MEASURING STICK. It always leads to this shit.
A: "Well in my game Ma Machine II was easy to defeat."
B: "Well in my game Ma Machine II did a total party kill."
C: "Well in my game we made deals with Ma Machine II and became cyborgs."
This is before we touch upon GMs who each one is unique. Some are strict, others hand waving, and so on.
This also doesn't touch on the players which follow the reasoning as the GMs.
Point is what happens at your game has no creditably because too many factors question that creditably. All your doing by bringing your game up is saying you have no real argument to make. Your telling people to ignore you.
Now before you get mad please understand. What happen in your game would make a great story to tell in the forum. All I am saying is that your personal game is a poor argument. That goes for me as well. What goes on in my game would be a shit argument as well.
Which is why I try to argue as close to Rules as Written as possible, simply because that's how one can get as close to a baseline assumption as one can, and even personal perceptions can make that difficult. The problem with a lot of White Wolf games is that the rules are so vague and sometimes contradictory that most arguments devolve very quickly into personal perceptions, more so than other games, because at the end of the day, that's all it has.
Quote from: Baron Opal;900450That's an odd thread.
Yes, yes it is.
I must first note a conspicuous lack of hands being shown. My, do you mean you're discussing a game you're not even playing;)?
Quote from: Anglachel;900543And again...maybe for you, Asen.
For me
and for everyone who paid attention to the same parts of the RAW instead of ignoring them selectively, you mean:).
QuoteI for one, have a lot of similar experiences like the posters you are so long windedly writing against. Exalted was advertised to be about Demigods...tag lines in the line of "not like dnd, you get to be badass from the very first moment" etc etc . You were promised to play movers and shakers of the setting FROM THE FUCKING START.
You mean your GM didn't let you be movers and shakers from the fucking start?
Listen, grasshopper: The moment a Circle of Celestial Exalts want to take over a small-to-medium sized city...they can do it. Might not be subtle about it, and might not get to keep it for long, might even be sorry about taking it - because, IME, beginner Solars often try to impose changes that don't fit and their best intentions often lead to more misery...but they can do it.
QuoteAnd then you play it and....nothing, nada... if you play it by RAW, that is.
The first time I played Exalted was by RAW. The first time I ran Exalted was by RAW. The above is what we got from both occasions.
QuoteThat you, Asen, can twist and turn the setting and the rules as you see fit...i believe you in an instant (because you tell us that in many other threads here or on rpg.net how much you know systems and houserule them to suit your needs)...but that is not what every GM can or even wants to do.
Except I'm not twisting the rules. I even gave up on the creation of my Ex3/Godbound hack.
The results still aren't changing.
QuoteSo yeah, agreeing whole-heartedly with other posters here that Exalted never kept what it promised in RAW.
It has worked in 2e and 3e RAW. Maybe I should run a 1e game just to be sure.
QuoteI absolutely agree that you can have that game, if you want to and if the GM plays along (or if you are the GM, if you are willing to change lots of stuff so that it plays like advertised by WW back in the day).
Apart from being the GM, I've played Exalted with different GMs, too. It does play as I described.
QuoteOh and if it was not clear...i'm talking about "out of the gate with a new edition" aka if you play Solars. All those advertisements are mostly about the main splat. "Evolve your game!"...yeah, right! :rolleyes:
And just to be clear, I'm also talking about Solars, both in 2e and in 3e.
Quote from: Whitewings;900545The infamous "Jon Chung Exalted," with its paranoia Combos and a minimum survival package that took up 8 of a Solar's initial ten Charms and required certain Attributes and Abilities at 5 each, was something Jon Chung himself detested. But it was a direct consequence of the rules as written and the setting as presented. Using both, there were literally no other build options that would allow a Solar to live long enough to become personally powerful enough to even attempt to accumulate political or economic power.
Wrong. There were enough build options that allowed that, you just risked getting ganked in every fight. Because in this case, it was ultimately about luck.
Quote from: Snowman0147;900552I am sick of this. AsenRG you need to hear this. Using your private game is a SHITTY MEASURING STICK.
What do you want me to use, theorywank:D?
QuoteIt always leads to this shit.
A: "Well in my game Ma Machine II was easy to defeat."
B: "Well in my game Ma Machine II did a total party kill."
C: "Well in my game we made deals with Ma Machine II and became cyborgs."
Sure, individual games vary.
QuoteThis is before we touch upon GMs who each one is unique. Some are strict, others hand waving, and so on.
And some handwave away the portions of the text that tell them "no, it's not supposed to be as hard as you think". As seen in this thread.
I'm also sorry if your GM sucks, but can't really help that;).
QuotePoint is what happens at your game has no creditably because too many factors question that creditably. All your doing by bringing your game up is saying you have no real argument to make. Your telling people to ignore you.
Fine, when I get home, I am going to post you the relevant points that say that "you start as being chased by Sidereal assassins" is BS.
QuoteNow before you get mad please understand. What happen in your game would make a great story to tell in the forum. All I am saying is that your personal game is a poor argument. That goes for me as well. What goes on in my game would be a shit argument as well.
Sure, but I also pointed out what parts of the RAW I believe others are missing. For some reason, nobody was willing to listen to that, either. Not even when I quoted the 1e, and there's a 1e fan in the thread...but he didn't pay attention, either!
Makes me think that some people simply have an axe to grind, frankly.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;900571Which is why I try to argue as close to Rules as Written as possible, simply because that's how one can get as close to a baseline assumption as one can, and even personal perceptions can make that difficult. The problem with a lot of White Wolf games is that the rules are so vague and sometimes contradictory that most arguments devolve very quickly into personal perceptions, more so than other games, because at the end of the day, that's all it has.
And I argued from the Rules As Written and Setting As Written.
There's nothing contradictory about the rules at least in 2e and 3e, though I'd like to see 1e rules on the table before passing judgement on those. Both latest editions more or less have rules that mean "being a Solar, you only need minimal investment to trump anyone who doesn't seriously outmatch you in mundane skill and equipment".
Said rules are called "limits to dice added by Charms";).
Quote from: AsenRG;900607I must first note a conspicuous lack of hands being shown. My, do you mean you're discussing a game you're not even playing;)?
We're discussing a game based on what the creators and those who've played it have said. I have to be honest, I don't really see the need to throw $30+ at something to form an opinion on it- especially if what I've read from the creators and active players has been enough to steer me away from it. If they implement Alchemicals (and do it well), then I'll jump on the bandwagon and buy it and try it.
But also, people are talking about Solars and I've never found them to be interesting or fun to play. It does seem, from what I have read, that the game tries to steer players using Solars toward playing very traditional-level campaigns. The fun of Exalted was
"Yes, you're a badass mother fucker from the start, but everything you're up against is as well". I remember educating a friend of mine-
"Yes, you can smash mortals with very little effort. Individually. Now, fight the Battalion that they sent at you."If you want to know the truth, I have been told that the combat system has improved drastically over
'Perfect or Die until mote burnout' (which meant combat-focused Abyssals, Soulsteel Alchemicals, and anyone using Soulsteel could nearly always win by attrition).
I've play tested the vaunted combat system and tried character generation at this point. Found both to a be dreary slog. As far as complaints about the fluff not much has changed from earlier editions where these same issues existed and what has largely aggravates them. Most of them have been and are being openly discussed. There are actual plays to read and discussion. It doesn't take psychic abilities to examine the setting and the rules. Evaluations of games are made every day by people that aren't running campaigns. That's what reviews are. At some point I'll probably try to slog though a friend's copy but so far I haven't seen anything that remotely makes it worth my while.
I've played quite a bit of 3rd, actually. And while there are several things I like, there are quite a bit more that I do not. One thing I noticed that made combat (yes, just focusing on one aspect atm) much more difficult for Solars versus mortals is that unless you have an Extra Action charm, you're limited to one attack per turn. So if you're fighting multiple opponents, you are going to get absolutely hammered. The lack of flurries and weapon rates has done a lot to make Solars much more squishy, to the point that if you are using Supernal [Ability] to get to your chosen combat types EA charm, being outnumbered is a death penalty.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900612I've played quite a bit of 3rd, actually. And while there are several things I like, there are quite a bit more that I do not. One thing I noticed that made combat (yes, just focusing on one aspect atm) much more difficult for Solars versus mortals is that unless you have an Extra Action charm, you're limited to one attack per turn. So if you're fighting multiple opponents, you are going to get absolutely hammered. The lack of flurries and weapon rates has done a lot to make Solars much more squishy, to the point that if you are using Supernal [Ability] to get to your chosen combat types EA charm, being outnumbered is a death penalty.
Combat does seem to be even more of a numbers game which groups of DB extremely dangerous.
Quote from: Nexus;900613Combat does seem to be even more of a numbers game which groups of DB extremely dangerous.
DBs? Hell,
Militia are a huge threat if there's more than ten of them and they aren't in a group.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900614DBs? Hell, Militia are a huge threat if there's more than ten of them and they aren't in a group.
I and others brought this up. The response boiled down to groups of singular mortals are always supposed to be in a battlegroup unless the indidivuals are "narratively significant". Dragonblooded, being Exalts, are always supposed to be "narratively significant" so are never in battle groups. And oh the shit storm that rose up when I suggested ignoring that for some games...
Quote from: Nexus;900619I and others brought this up. The response boiled down to groups of singular mortals are always supposed to be in a battlegroup unless the indidivuals are "narratively significant". Dragonblooded, being Exalts, are always supposed to be "narratively significant" so are never in battle groups. And oh the shit storm that rose up when I suggested ignoring that for some games...
2 on 1 combat is something to avoid in this edition. I never had that much trouble with mooks in 2nd.
I've never shot myself in the head but just from reading about it I can tell I won't like it.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;9006202 on 1 combat is something to avoid in this edition. I never had that much trouble with mooks in 2nd.
Yep, can't argue there. I never liked the "narratively significant" answer either. I guess its the sim(?) guy in me but if you can fight 2+ more guys single handedly then any mob style rules should just serve to speed up the combat not radically alter your chances.
And its not just combat. See the current (in the WIR Ex 3 thread) and earlier discussion about why no Exalts have infiltrated/taken over the Guild.
Quote from: Nexus;900634And its not just combat. See the current (in the WIR Ex 3 thread) and earlier discussion about why no Exalts have infiltrated/taken over the Guild.
That was a load of BS from back in the 2ED days. The same people saying 'well you can take over a small nation as a starting character' are real quick to get behind the idea that the Guild is somehow immutable.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900614DBs? Hell, Militia are a huge threat if there's more than ten of them and they aren't in a group.
If you're solo-fighting more than three or four people, they should
always be using the Battle Group rules.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900639That was a load of BS from back in the 2ED days. The same people saying 'well you can take over a small nation as a starting character' are real quick to get behind the idea that the Guild is somehow immutable.
The Guild is one of those troublesome aspects of the setting that has actually gotten more annoying in 3rd.
Here is what I've been able to find with a cursory search that took me all of 15 minutes...:)
Quote from: Ex3, p. 21The Sidereals kept a close watch for the few Solars who continued to be reborn into the world. With powerful astrology and mystical instruments of detection, the Sidereals guided armed strike forces of Dragon-Blooded to destroy newly emergent Solars before they had a chance to gain power. Such groups came to be called the Wyld Hunt, and their inquisitions became inseparable from the Immaculate religion. For centuries, the Wyld Hunt rode down, captured and slaughtered the Solar Exalted with impunity.
That's purposefully written in past tense, talking about the creation of the Realm post-Usurpation. Now contrast this with...
Quote from: Ex3, p.23The Return of the Solar Exalted
[/BAfter a millennia of vigilance, the Wyld Hunt has lapsed.
Simple and to the point. It's even separated by a paragrpaph break.
Quote from: Ex3, p.30Wyld Hunt, the: A Wyld Hunt is a group of Dragon-Blooded who band together to hunt and kill the Anathema. The Wyld Hunt has been weakened by the impending war for the Realm’s throne. It will not stay that way.
Do you really need "you have an window of opportunity" spelled out in giant letters? Does your GM needs it spelled out?
And then we come to the setting's chapter.
Quote from: Ex3 p. 74The [Wyld Hunt as an] institution is prevalent across Creation—not only is it practiced by the Seventh Legion of Lookshy, it is the rubric under which rural outcaste Terrestrials form posses
and assert protective solidarity and collective interests. The Realm’s own Wyld Hunts are spread thinner than at any point in prior centuries, but no less deadly than ever before when they do appear.
Each Exigent must labor over many lifetimes to purify the taint on his soul through correct living under the tenets of the Immaculate Philosophy, but such purification is made possible through the grace of the Dragons, ultimately leading to the potential for redemption and rebirth as one of the Dragon-Blooded—so the Immaculate Order claims. Exigent recidivists who threaten the stability of the Realm are sorrowfully dispatched by the Wyld Hunt, perhaps to find greater wisdom in their next life.
The Sidereal Exalted aren’t widely known to exist. As such, a revealed Sidereal would likely be mistaken for an Exigent. Those who are aware of the Sidereals know them as rare and reclusive Chosen who labor in the shadows to uphold the proper, fated order of the world—that is, the dominion of the Realm. Liminals are blasphemous aberrations against the natural order, but so are all things of the Underworld; the Wyld Hunt rides against them if they seem an active danger to Dragon-Blooded hegemony, but pays them no special attention otherwise. A few satraps have hired Liminal mercenaries to deal with the unquiet dead.
First, we have a confirmation: the Wyld Hunt is stretched thin, and can't respond to all emergencies (refer to my previous post with explanation what "stretched thin" entails). Therefore,
smart players only need to avoid becoming its
priority targets.What follows from the Exigent remark, though?
Well, it follows that as long as you're unrecognised - almost trivial for Night Castes, slightly harder for Eclipses and for some sorcerors, but not really challenging for anyone, IME - you can very well pass as an Exigeant, too. Knowing that the Wyld Hunt exists, you should be trying to do that, until you're ready to fight them openly.
Of course, you can pass as a sorcerer even more easily in this edition...especially since sorcerers can be mortals, now!
Quote from: Ex3 pp. 108-109Yena’s Daughters
Three war-bands, calling themselves Yena’s Daughters, have made the Diamond Road that runs between Gem and the Lap their hunting ground. The Realm publicly dismisses them as mere bandits, but if even half of the stories told in caravanserais and wine sinks are true, then these mere bandits have inflicted untold damage in lost revenue and lives. Tribute caravans simply vanish into the desert, one after another.
Yena’s daughters are a trio of hyena-women, inheritors of their mother’s ferocity and survival instincts.
Yena Bone-Breaker coordinates her daughters’ efforts and leads their fiercest raids. Her laughter echoes amongthe red canyons and rolls across the burning dunes. Yena’s Daughters frustrate every attempt to find their lairs and rally a Wyld Hunt. They stalk the walled villages and oasis-towns of the Diamond Road, leaving precious trinkets, stolen food, and heaps of silver on the doorsteps of the common folk to buy their goodwill. Yena herself descends in the night to devour the bones of any who inform the Realm of their movements. The losses continue to mount.
Here's an example of people leaving their mark on the setting. And if some God-Blooded can do that, you can do it, too. Their whole story is "I'm using 5 of my 7 Merit points wisely", from a PC's point of view.
And yet they're already bandit-queens! Can you do better? Rhetorical question, of course. You've got
Solar Charms, and immense power. Of course you can!
If you play it smart, that is.
Oh, and just because it needed to be said when people mention "previous editions".
Quote from: Ex2, p. 19Wyld Hunt: The Hunt is a group of battle-hardened Dragon-Blooded gathered both from the Immaculate Order and the Realm military for the express purpose of hunting down Anathema. With the disappearance of the Scarlet Empress, the Wyld Hunt’s effectiveness has begun to suffer, as those Dragon-Bloods who would be most effective in the Hunt now choose to stay at home to lend their support to their Great Houses in the contest for the Scarlet Throne.
Quote from: Ex2, p,32Indeed, there is a close connection between the growing confusion within the Realm and the reappearance of the Solar Exalted. The Wyld Hunt no longer pursues its Anathema with the vigor it did during the days of the Empress. Instead, like all the resources of the Realm, the Wyld Hunt is increasingly turned to the purposes of various rival powers within the Realm, rather than against the Realm’s external enemies.
Yup, almost repeating the 1e statement on the matter. And adding to that...
Quote from: Ex2, p.38Most disturbing to the leaders of the Hunt these days are the sheer number of targets. It used to be that there would be one Anathema loose every decade. Now, there are dozens in the Scavenger Lands and hundreds more in the Threshold as a whole, and there have been at least 20 on the Blessed Isle itself.
So, to summarize...a system that was working great, now has to outperform itself on less resources. Do you really need "they're going to prioritize targets" spelled out?
Fuck it, here's the 1e corebook's descriptions...also summarily ignored in some groups, it seems.
Quote from: Ex1, p. 13Any attempt to deploy the legions abroad was seen as a maneuver in the struggle for control of the throne — the armies of the Realm were paralyzed. Even the Wyld Hunt has fallen to the wayside, as the contenders for the throne gather their every iota of power.
...
This is the world into which your character has come. After millennia of vigilance, the Wyld Hunt has lapsed. And at this moment of weakness, the Solar Exalted have returned. Not a tiny handful, but a great mass of them. It is as if a gate was opened and the heroes of old rushed through it and returned to the world.
Quote from: Ex1, p.16Wyld Hunt: A powerful group of battle-hardened and devout Dragon-Blooded that the Immaculate Order used to hunt Anathema. Now that the Scarlet Empress has disappeared and the various lesser powers of the Realm have begun to vie for the throne, most of the Dragon-Blooded who served in the Wyld Hunt have, instead, chosen to stay close to home, to lend their might to the various contenders for rulership of the Realm.
QuoteSince the disappearance of the Empress, the feuding houses of the Realm have begun to divert all the empire’s resources to fuel their internecine squabbles and their jockeying for the throne. The once-ubiquitous network of spies and informants with which the Empress searched for the Celestials has begun to unravel, subverted by the intelligence apparatuses of the various houses or reassigned to deal with the nobles’ growing disloyalty. And at this dark moment, it seems as if a great flood of Solars, more than have ever been seen before, has entered the world, at the one moment when the Dragon-Blooded are no longer in a position to do anything about it. Today, the Wyld Hunt must often rely on mortal assassins and outcaste bounty hunters, rather than the massive and well-armed hunting parties of the past.
Quote from: Ex1, p. 45Even the operation of the Wyld Hunt has decreased in efficiency, as the Eye’s Sidereal astrologers are forced to turn their attention to the doings of the houses, rather than the emergence of the Anathema. It many cases, the Wyld Hunt must rely on outcaste assassins, reserving its deadly Sidereal and Dragon-Blooded killers for the most dangerous of targets.
Yeah, there's definitely a trend, here;).
I guess they expected people running the 3e to know all about the workings of the Wyld Hunt already, because the amount of info on it is lessened in every subsequent edition.
And here's the thing about "Solars are heroes, but heroes don't necessarily enjoy long-term successes"...from the Exalted 1 Corebook, no less.
Quote from: Ex1, p.21Thus goes the existence of the Solar Exalted — to wield the power of the Sun but to do so with the greatest economy possible, showing their true mighty only when the need is great. Traveling the roads as mendicants, pilgrims and fugitives, they tread lightly and fight when they have no choice or when their consciences compel them to. Some have crowned themselves kings and queens, but so far, their reigns have been brief and ended by the knives of the Wyld Hunt or by some regional power fearful of competition. Those Solars who wish to survive the maturity of their power must play a game of high and low — living as vagabonds, bandits and troubadours while they master their great power and learn the secrets of their Exalted state.
I can't count the number of tales I've read where the lawful king does exactly that. So I'm not going to try. Let's just say that to me, that's what heroes do - and I'd expect anyone with a modicum of knowledge about legends, myths and tales, to know it as well.
But pay attention: they can crown themselves! They're just unlikely to keep it for long - but they would definitely leave their mark on the world!
Which happens to be exactly what I was saying in this thread...
Quote from: Crüesader;900608We're discussing a game based on what the creators and those who've played it have said. I have to be honest, I don't really see the need to throw $30+ at something to form an opinion on it- especially if what I've read from the creators and active players has been enough to steer me away from it. If they implement Alchemicals (and do it well), then I'll jump on the bandwagon and buy it and try it.
But also, people are talking about Solars and I've never found them to be interesting or fun to play. It does seem, from what I have read, that the game tries to steer players using Solars toward playing very traditional-level campaigns. The fun of Exalted was "Yes, you're a badass mother fucker from the start, but everything you're up against is as well". I remember educating a friend of mine- "Yes, you can smash mortals with very little effort. Individually. Now, fight the Battalion that they sent at you."
If you want to know the truth, I have been told that the combat system has improved drastically over 'Perfect or Die until mote burnout' (which meant combat-focused Abyssals, Soulsteel Alchemicals, and anyone using Soulsteel could nearly always win by attrition).
Sure, if it doesn't sound like fun, it doesn't. You can look into fan-made Alchemical charms already, BTW.
But it also means that you're relying on second-hand opinions, at best.
As a side note, how did soulsteal users even make any use of their mote-draining? It only happens "When a soulsteel weapon strikes a target". With perfect defences, that's "not until you're out of motes anyway".
Quote from: Nexus;900609I've play tested the vaunted combat system and tried character generation at this point. Found both to a be dreary slog.
I definitely agree on character generation:D!
On the combat system I disagree with your statement, though.
QuoteAs far as complaints about the fluff not much has changed from earlier editions where these same issues existed and what has largely aggravates them.
Did it? The "Wyld Hunt issue" was solved in 1e and 2e. It is solved in 3e as well by giving you the window of opportunity.
If you mean the "some people are better than others" problem, I don't find it to be a problem;).
QuoteThere are actual plays to read and discussion. It doesn't take psychic abilities to examine the setting and the rules. Evaluations of games are made every day by people that aren't running campaigns. That's what reviews are. At some point I'll probably try to slog though a friend's copy but so far I haven't seen anything that remotely makes it worth my while.
Reviews are written with the book at hand, at least. I've written a few.
Also, there are "playtest reviews", written after playing or running it. Guess which ones would you trust more?
Unless I'm misunderstanding your "might slog through a friend's copy" comment, you haven't made that yet. So, all your outrage about the issues the game has, was spent on a game you haven't read..
Glad we cleared that out.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900612I've played quite a bit of 3rd, actually. And while there are several things I like, there are quite a bit more that I do not. One thing I noticed that made combat (yes, just focusing on one aspect atm) much more difficult for Solars versus mortals is that unless you have an Extra Action charm, you're limited to one attack per turn. So if you're fighting multiple opponents, you are going to get absolutely hammered.
Am I? Penalty negator charms are still there, as well as flurry-breakers. You'd think I can actually use those against multiple named enemies...oh wait, I really can!
QuoteThe lack of flurries and weapon rates has done a lot to make Solars much more squishy, to the point that if you are using Supernal [Ability] to get to your chosen combat types EA charm, being outnumbered is a death penalty.
Mwahahaha, no:D! You just proved why reading the fucking book matters.
Shadow over Water and Leaping Dodge Method are still there, and still ensure that your group of named enemies is just going to be that much meat for the Solar's Cleaver.
But that's 5 charms...maybe I should just take Dipping Swallow Defense and Bulwark stance, which are two charms with no prerequisites, and ensure that I take no penalties until the end of the round. There, your onslaught penalties are out. Outnumber me all you want! If I also have Solar Counterattack, you're going to suffer. A lot.
And that's all Essence 1 Charms. If I'm Essence 2, or Supernal Melee, I also have Heavenly Guardian Defence and Solar Counterattack. Which, translated, means that anyone attempting to harm me is likely to suffer for the impertinence.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;9006202 on 1 combat is something to avoid in this edition. I never had that much trouble with mooks in 2nd.
:D
You had trouble with mooks? How so?
Quote from: Jetstream;900652If you're solo-fighting more than three or four people, they should always be using the Battle Group rules.
Indeed. I don't really like mob rules, either, but that's how the system works. Ignore it at your peril.
Quote from: Nexus;900681The Guild is one of those troublesome aspects of the setting that has actually gotten more annoying in 3rd.
And once again, we disagree on setting issues.
Quote from: AsenRG;900693As a side note, how did soulsteal users even make any use of their mote-draining? It only happens "When a soulsteel weapon strikes a target". With perfect defences, that's "not until you're out of motes anyway".
"Strikes" your target. Not "damages" your target. Not every defense is a dodge.
Though don't take my word for it, I can't recall a battle like this- just something I came to the conclusion to some time ago.
Quote from: Crüesader;900695"Strikes" your target. Not "damages" your target. Not every defense is a dodge.
Though don't take my word for it, I can't recall a battle like this- just something I came to the conclusion to some time ago.
Yes, soulsteel might be nasty if you're relying on perfect soak. But perfect defences are only perfect dodge, perfect parry and perfect soak. Two out of three apply, and nobody could rely on perfect soak alone due to the Bad Touch Charms, so everyone had at least one of the other two as well, IME.
I think Soulsteel weapons only inflicted mote drains if you struck your target (beat their Defensive value) not if they used a Parry based Defense. Other yeah, they'd be one Hell of an "I win" button. Besides Perfect Defenses negated any other Touch based negative effects when employed. Perfect Soak, OTOH, not so much.
Ex2, page 387: In the hands of an Abyssal Exalt, a soulsteel melee weapon is +2 Accuracy and drains a number of motes of Essence equal to the wielder’s permanent Essence whenever it strikes a target and inflicts at least one health level of damage.
There was also an Abyssal Charm that let the weapon's wielders add those motes to his own pool.
Okay AsenRG. I will agree with you only because you actually shown page numbers in the book instead of wasting everyone's time with events in your game. You can make changes in Exalted.
Still Godbound is better.
Quote from: AsenRG;900693Reviews are written with the book at hand, at least. I've written a few.
And as I said I've read those review commentary from the people that wrote the game, people that play it and sections of the book itself. What of it?
QuoteAlso, there are "playtest reviews", written after playing or running it. Guess which ones would you trust more?
Yeah, that's why I read them and they are part of what formed my opinions.
Playing the game doesn't magically change the things written on the page or make how you chose to interpret it. Hell, some of the play test reviews noted the same things I did and I've tested the mechanics myself. I've also seen (and used) the combat mechanics, seen what typical 'weakened" Wyld Hunt looks like in editions 1-3 and ran the game in 1st to 2nd for 10 yrs. The Sidereals hardcore (both editions) still presents them as having and using the abillity to pin point essence users and guide hunts to you unless you lay low. It just doesn't happen as quickly so you essentially have the chance to run and hide instead of being wack a mole when they're there when you first Exalt. Still not the "game of epic power where you're a move and shaker from the get go".
And that's just the sids. There's an array of other PC stompers gunning for Solar PCs out of the gate with the ability to find you and quickly and more potent than they're going to be for sometime. You can handwave those away or change things. I DID but it feels like you're fighting the intent of the game despite what its huped as being.
Quote from: Snowman0147;900707Okay AsenRG. I will agree with you only because you actually shown page numbers in the book instead of wasting everyone's time with events in your game. You can make changes in Exalted.
Well, of course you can. Hammering it into shape and dragging on despite that anchor of system and ignoring the setting issues is what allot of the fanbase has been doing. That doesn't make it a good thing.
QuoteStill Godbound is better.
It certainly seems to be better at living up to the promises of Exalted without as much work where you start off with reputation as being a Big Damn Deal but without much to back it up.
Quote from: Snowman0147;900707Okay AsenRG. I will agree with you only because you actually shown page numbers in the book instead of wasting everyone's time with events in your game. You can make changes in Exalted.
Thanks:). That was my point.
QuoteStill Godbound is better.
Arguably, for some people, that would be true.
I think that per RAW, they just have subtle differences that would take me longer to get into, but which make them more of a case of "different games for different people". And of course, I've backed Godbound and Exalted 3e, no surprise in me liking them both;).
Quote from: Nexus;900713And as I said I've read those review commentary from the people that wrote the game, people that play it and sections of the book itself. What of it?
Yeah, that's why I read them and they are part of what formed my opinions.
OK, sure, you've put a lot of work in it, then.
Other people might not have.
QuotePlaying the game doesn't magically change the things written on the page or make how you chose to interpret it. Hell, some of the play test reviews noted the same things I did and I've tested the mechanics myself. I've also seen (and used) the combat mechanics, seen what typical 'weakened" Wyld Hunt looks like in editions 1-3 and ran the game in 1st to 2nd for 10 yrs.
The first time I ran Exalted was almost 10 years ago, too.
QuoteThe Sidereals hardcore (both editions) still presents them as having and using the abillity to pin point essence users and guide hunts to you unless you lay low.
Ability and resources aren't the same thing.
QuoteIt just doesn't happen as quickly so you essentially have the chance to run and hide instead of being wack a mole when they're there when you first Exalt. Still not the "game of epic power where you're a move and shaker from the get go".
Being able to become king in days isn't "being a mover and shaker" in your book?
QuoteAnd that's just the sids. There's an array of other PC stompers gunning for Solar PCs out of the gate with the ability to find you and quickly and more potent than they're going to be for sometime. You can handwave those away or change things. I DID but it feels like you're fighting the intent of the game despite what its huped as being.
See the p.21 sidebar in Exalted 1 edition, and my commentary on it in my previous post.
All the other threats also have their issues, leading to them not having the resources for you, BTW.
Quote from: Nexus;900714Well, of course you can. Hammering it into shape and dragging on despite that anchor of system and ignoring the setting issues is what allot of the fanbase has been doing. That doesn't make it a good thing.
I'm not saying the current Exalted system is perfect for Exalted, BTW. My choice would rather be Reign, for the Company rules.
And see my previous post for an example why the "setting issues" are implied in the setting to not be issues. They're, rather, opportunities - if you approach them the right way.
But I'm enjoying Exalted for the game it is, and I've tacked the Company rules from Reign on top of it, without even telling the players;).
QuoteIt certainly seems to be better at living up to the promises of Exalted without as much work where you start off with reputation as being a Big Damn Deal but without much to back it up.
Possibly yes, for some people.
Quote from: AsenRG;900728Being able to become king in days isn't "being a mover and shaker" in your book?
Not when the Unstoppable Righteous Assassins of Heaven absolutely will kill you within a week. It's pretty simple, really: Using the setting as presented, if a Solar draws the attention of the Sidereals, or most elder Lunars, or the Realm, or the Deathlords, or... well, pretty well any of the existing Big Noises, those Noises will do their best to flatten the Solars. They'll use what I once saw referred to as the Bellerophon Protocol: send a weak force to scout. If they fail, go straight to the biggest guns available. Don't bother with ramping up gradually. And since Solars draw a lot of attention by their very natures, then yes, they'll getting splatted in short order and all their works will be undone. This doesn't sound much like "mover and shaker" to me. To avoid this, a Solar has to go way the heck back of beyond and spend however long it takes to reach Essence 5, master every form of mental and physical conflict, learn every Charm relating to them, and then, maybe, have a chance of not getting splatted within a week of starting to actually do things. Frankly, the ST in 1e and even more in 2e is strongly encouraged to throw everything available at the PCs any and every time they get noticed.
Quote from: Whitewings;900752Not when the Unstoppable Righteous Assassins of Heaven absolutely will kill you within a week.
That's pretty much bullshit:). I've pretty much lost the count of how many Unstoppable Righteous Assassins I have evaded or killed, personally. Add to that the Unstoppable Unrighteous Assassins, and the Unstoppable Nihilistic Courtiers...and yeah, I don't care to count:p!
QuoteIt's pretty simple, really: Using the setting as presented, if a Solar draws the attention of the Sidereals, or most elder Lunars, or the Realm, or the Deathlords, or... well, pretty well any of the existing Big Noises, those Noises will do their best to flatten the Solars.
As a Solar, I have only one answer to that.
"You're welcome to try, bitches".QuoteThey'll use what I once saw referred to as the Bellerophon Protocol: send a weak force to scout. If they fail, go straight to the biggest guns available. Don't bother with ramping up gradually.
The biggest guns
can't be everywhere at once. That applies to PCs as well as to NPCs.
If you play the NPCs as not subject to this simple law (while the PCs will obviously be subject to it)...I can only say that I'm sorry that your GM sucks;).
Hint: there are more Solars after the halving than there ever were Sidereals. And Solars are amazingly resilient and able to survive. And there are more Anathema than just Solars. And everything I posted about the Wyld Hunt applies to pretty much every other faction out there...do your own searches to find how.
And, at the end, the Lunars do manage to operate, somehow. Take a note from those that have been doing it for far longer.
QuoteAnd since Solars draw a lot of attention by their very natures, then yes, they'll getting splatted in short order and all their works will be undone.
There's no "will", it's a roleplaying game. If the GM knows what will happen...just tell me and then I'll go home.
QuoteFrankly, the ST in 1e and even more in 2e is strongly encouraged to throw everything available at the PCs any and every time they get noticed.
Apart from the quotes from 1e and 2e that I just posted, you mean:D?
Seriously, your logic is flawed on so many levels, it's not even funny.
Hint, your argument is that "they do that unless they're stupid".
But the real trick is...you don't do that unless you're either a homicidal maniac or stupid. Oh, and even if you are, you still only do that if you have the resources available.
You learn there's a Solar. That means there's a very large, hard to direct, very dangerous missile in flight. What do you do?
Simple answer: you destroy it, possibly expending resources and neglecting whatever else you could achieve by them.
Smarter answer: You hack it and it can now do your work for you. Problem is, if you fail, you have to revert to
Smarter answer: you misdirect it to aim at someone who was causing you trouble, and now he has to tie up his resources to deal with it. If you do that right, neither the missile not the target would know who did the misdirection;).
Oh sure, it can backfire. Is there any reason you think the Exalted antagonists aren't just as confident in their abilities to pull it off, though?
And don't even get me started on all the ways to deal with those that take the simple solution:D!
Be a king in days? When taking over or even just making in roads into the Guild (the British East India Company meets the mafia) is described a the work of a major campaign arc (both by the text, enthusiastic fans and the people that wrote the game?). Then you can expect the shortest reign ever because you just shot to the top of the Kill List of several groups.
This begs the question. Why don't the Solars just journey off to the wyld and make islands of creation? Escape just about every thing and you keep what you make. I mean if your constantly losing every thing that you build in creation a solar might be frustrated enough to call it quits and ditch creation to its own fate.
In all honesty, this can very quickly come to look like a very good idea. And a starting Solar can actually do it, with Supernal Lore. I just worked it out, and you can create a starting Twilight with the entire Wyld-Shaping tree, save for Tome-Rearing Gesture. And that's only because Tome-Rearing Gesture requires an Essence 3 Linguistics Charm.
Guys, I hate to write this but actually I agree with AsenG. The Wyld Hunt and the Bronze Faction of the Siderals do not longer have the ressources (and the commitment) to hunt down Solars with the efficiency they had before.
The Wyld Hunt is not longer properly funded and maintain by the Dragon Blooded who divert their ressources for their petty civil wars, since the Empress is longer there to keep them focus. The Dragon Blooded also not longer sent their best members there, and view this tasks only suitable to failure of unwanted exalted.
The Bronze Faction lose its main asset (the Empress) and must divert attention and ressource in keeping the Empire's existence. I also remember reading that many key members of the Bronze Faction died some before the beginning of the game, leaving only less experimented members to do their works.
I also think there is a little problem with the plan "fuck Creation, let's go to the Wyld" since it is full of beings who are not fond of the Solar Exalted. Morever, the instinct of the Solar Exalted (and the memories of their previous lives) drive them to become leaders of the Creation.
The threats to the Solar Exalted are being somewhat overstated, at least in terms of 1st edition which I ran several long term successful campaigns in. Those campaigns only ended when the PC's became so completely unstoppable that nothing I could throw at them would actually be a challenge anymore, and NPC's needed pages and pages of charms (Which I just started short handing).
At least in terms of 1st edition... It was emphasized the Wyld Hunt was really fucked up... it was relying on more mortal support than Dragon Blooded, and god no they couldn't afford any Sidherals to be leading it either. All the important Dragon Blooded were to busy back in the realm dealing with the up coming civil war..
So that meant it was only the religious fanatics and young untested Dragon Blooded going after the Exalted... which meant getting slaughtered by a circle of even starting Solars... and that's something to remember, it's not suppose to be 1 starting Solar, it's typically 4 to 5... 3 newbie Dragon Blooded, 1 experienced monk and 20 mortals are going to get utterly destroyed by that group..
Of course the realm could throw more... but that's where the original genius of the setting comes into play. The Scavenger Lands are fucking huge, and NOT directly under control of the Realm. The Wyld hunt has an even harder time sending agents there, because of the sheer size and complete lack of back up... And, in 1st edition, Lookshy didn't give a flying fuck about Solars either. They were far more focused on keeping the Scavenger lands free of the Realm.
You also have the sheer size of creation, and this cannot be stated enough... Creation is fucking huge... there are hundreds of miles between the city states, and the blessed isle itself is bigger than Asia... There were huge empty spaces on the map where you could plop down and create your own entire kingdoms..
Sure, the Solars should be sticking away from experienced elder Lunars they don't have alliance with, or the stronghold of a Deathlord, and there's more than enough space for them to do so, and get stronger. Solars are typically on the move because of being hunted, but there's nothing stopping them from setting up shop in a GM created Kingdom which is ruled by a handful of outcaste Dragon Blooded, kicking it over and taking it as their own...
And again, because of the sheer size of creation (And the fact there'a also like 200 other Solars running around, so the Wyld Hunt can't focus on all of them at once) they'll have plenty of time to do their own thing..
Then we get to a city like Nexus... for pete sake here guys, Nexus was the home base of Dace and his Mercenaris.. his entire circle lived in Nexus... openly, and nobody fucked with Nexus because a god protected the place, and it was part of the river compact...
Now this is all from a 1st edition perspective... I didn't like the changes to 2nd and I like the ones of 3rd even less... But this whole argument that Solars were dead the moment they hit the ground, is dumb and false.
Exalted's problem has always been it's system, and fans who became writers who decided to twist the core setting to their own vision rather than sticking with what made it work.
Quote from: yabaziou;900793Guys, I hate to write this but actually I agree with AsenG. The Wyld Hunt and the Bronze Faction of the Siderals do not longer have the ressources (and the commitment) to hunt down Solars with the efficiency they had before.
The Wyld Hunt is not longer properly funded and maintain by the Dragon Blooded who divert their ressources for their petty civil wars, since the Empress is longer there to keep them focus. The Dragon Blooded also not longer sent their best members there, and view this tasks only suitable to failure of unwanted exalted.
It doesn't take their best. "Typical" Dragonblooded will do particularly when they can outnumber a Solar Circle 2-3 to 1. With the difference between Celestial and Terrestrial power narrowed and most of the Terrestrials likely being more experienced (particularly given the stats in the book) and it becomes more lopasided.
The "underfunded" Wyld Hunt just means they must prioritize their targets more instead of playing Wack-a-mole anytime a Solar pops up. They don't show up on your door step the day after you Exalt. The problem being that the moment you start to do the things the game bills itself as being about you ping and here comes the hammer. Particularly building a power base since that' allegedly something Solars are good at (though there little mechanical support for leadership and kingdom building but that's another issue.)
Also its been stated the Realm isn't as "weak and staggering" as it was before...
QuoteThe Bronze Faction lose its main asset (the Empress) and must divert attention and ressource in keeping the Empire's existence. I also remember reading that many key members of the Bronze Faction died some before the beginning of the game, leaving only less experimented members to do their works.
The Empress and her access to the Realm Defense grid never was the Bronze';s primary weapon against the Solars and other "anathema". It was the Immaculate Order, it military and its spiritual grip on most of Creation. It provides resources, information and slows Solar power build up. Their warriors are exceptionally powerful and they have to pull to draw in mortals for backup.
The Sids other best resources is Heaven and the Bureau of Fate: information, supernatural resources and comparatively lightning fast transport around Creation via Celestial Gates among other things. Again, it doesn't a hit squad of Sids just one with moderate Essence that gets surprise. And they're very good at that or they can just sic other opponents on you,.
QuoteAnd then there's a rest of the things out to get you or put you under their thumb.
I also think there is a little problem with the plan "fuck Creation, let's go to the Wyld" since it is full of beings who are not fond of the Solar Exalted. Morever, the instinct of the Solar Exalted (and the memories of their previous lives) drive them to become leaders of the Creation.
So is Creation and, unless they've been severely nerfed Solars have appreciable power against the Wyld. And there is a drive to greatness in Solars but its the same as in all Exalted. That doesn't mean leadership. Several of the canon Solars sigs have no great drive to be leaders of anything.
The game isn't "unplayable" but it provides a different play experience from what most expect, IME. Yes, you can change it like any other game but its work. You're fighting the system and the setting. It feels like another White Wolf/Storyteller bait and switch and yet again they're wagging their fingers like it was "obvious" all the time. They handwave their own setting to make it work but its like allot of their other games made like a cheap sweater Looks nice at first but as soon as you tug at loose thread the whole thing starts to unravel.
1st Edition wasn't really that much better given that many of PC stompers like SMA were introduced later in 1st and just got ramped over the course of the line.
Quote from: Orphan81;900796The threats to the Solar Exalted are being somewhat overstated, at least in terms of 1st edition which I ran several long term successful campaigns in. Those campaigns only ended when the PC's became so completely unstoppable that nothing I could throw at them would actually be a challenge anymore, and NPC's needed pages and pages of charms (Which I just started short handing).
Your experiences with the game have been much different from mine. I was nerfing the Hell out of NPCs to give my players a chance. And it was the same for other gms and players I talked too. I never ran into the invincible Solars that kept getting talked up. Solars didn't even rule the roost in the combat arenas I participated in adn ran. 2ed just took those problems and made them a little worse. Again, IME
There is a big difference in reported experiences with Exalted mechanics though. I'm not sure why. Its almost as if there are a few different versions of the game floating around.
But its probably best to let it go at this point. No one is going to be convinced either way.
Quote from: Nexus;900813Your experiences with the game have been much different from mine. I was nerfing the Hell out of NPCs to give my players a chance. And it was the same for other gms and players I talked too. I never ran into the invincible Solars that kept getting talked up. Solars didn't even rule the roost in the combat arenas I participated in adn ran. 2ed just took those problems and made them a little worse. Again, IME
There is a big difference in reported experiences with Exalted mechanics though. I'm not sure why. Its almost as if there are a few different versions of the game floating around.
But its probably best to let it go at this point. No one is going to be convinced either way.
I remember when my bud ran the Daughter of Nexus adventure. Against two combat twinked Solars, one a Dawn and a super strong wrestling Twilight, the NPC Abyssal murdered us in about 4 rounds, and that was after we nerfed the shit out of Zeal I think it was called. Which ever one gave you a unblockable piercing attack midcombat.
The big equalizer in combat between Dragon Blooded and Solars, is Dragon Blooded don't have perfect defenses. They have Perfect Defenses against mortals, but they're undodgable hits don't work on Celestial Exalted, and they're perfect blocks just shatter against Solar charm backed attacks..
My PC's slaughtered Dragon Blooded by the bucketful. An Alpha Strike just using the dice adder of starting charms could give more successes than the DB could conceivably dodge or parry...We also used Exalted Power Combat from the player's guide which made combat even more deadly... and this actually helped me in making DB's be more of a threat since minimum damage became your Essence rating..
It allowed me to throw older Essence 6 and 7 Dragon Blooded who could give the younger Solars an actual fight..
But again, it was the perfect defenses which really pushed Solars above all the other threats (except for Abyssals who were their equal, and fuck Infernals they didn't exist until late first edition and they're stupid.. fuck em). The biggest baddest attack of any other creature could be completely negated by heavenly guardian defense, Iron Kettle body, or Seven Shadow Evasion... it was more than easy for starting Solars to have one of these... and 1st edition even had a sidebar which encouraged players to take some of those survival charms..
This doesn't even get into the Charms which allowed a free dodge/parry against any and all attacks made against them. Once the PC's got these numbers no longer mattered... No need to split dice pools, no Onslaught penalties...A Dawn with Solar counter attack and Five fold Bulwark defense could kill an entire party of Essence 2 Dragon blooded in one round, if they all made the mistake of attacking him at once. Thrown in PC stunts and they should be getting essence back on every action as well.
If your Solars were getting slaughtered by your average Dragon blooded, then I can only assume your ST was cheating, or you built crappy Solars. In 1st edition Dragon Blooded got double artifact points because they NEEDED them in order to have any hope of a starting Dragon Blooded being some kind of fight for a starting solar, rather than just a speed bump.
Within about 5 sessions, parties of Dragon Blooded against my PC's had to be 2 to 1 in order to make it a real fight... Or 1 Elder Dragon blooded leading a party of younger ones.. Eventually, Dragon Blooded just weren't an issue unless they were 6 or 7 essence level... 1st edition Exalted just had to many hard brakes on Dragon Blooded. Their charms were only about half as effective against Celestial Exalted... My PC's moved quickly to challenging Lunars and Abyssals who were a much stronger and worthy series of opponents... Abyssals being the complete equals of Solars helped, and I just had to front load a Lunar with far more XP than them and they were a good challenge.
In the end, I'm honestly curious to hear stories of your PC's getting killed by a group of Dragon Blooded. How many were there? How many Solars were in your party?
Because once my PC's hit Essence 5, they had access to Solar Level Sorcery, Multiple Martial Arts styles, and Top Tier Solar combat charms capable of completely decimating any other Exalted type not a Deathlord or Abyssal of equal level, or a Siderhal whose mastered a Sidheral martial arts style.
Quote from: yabaziou;900793Guys, I hate to write this but actually I agree with AsenG. The Wyld Hunt and the Bronze Faction of the Siderals do not longer have the ressources (and the commitment) to hunt down Solars with the efficiency they had before.
The Wyld Hunt is not longer properly funded and maintain by the Dragon Blooded who divert their ressources for their petty civil wars, since the Empress is longer there to keep them focus. The Dragon Blooded also not longer sent their best members there, and view this tasks only suitable to failure of unwanted exalted.
The Bronze Faction lose its main asset (the Empress) and must divert attention and ressource in keeping the Empire's existence. I also remember reading that many key members of the Bronze Faction died some before the beginning of the game, leaving only less experimented members to do their works.
I also think there is a little problem with the plan "fuck Creation, let's go to the Wyld" since it is full of beings who are not fond of the Solar Exalted. Morever, the instinct of the Solar Exalted (and the memories of their previous lives) drive them to become leaders of the Creation.
Quote from: Orphan81;900796The threats to the Solar Exalted are being somewhat overstated, at least in terms of 1st edition which I ran several long term successful campaigns in. Those campaigns only ended when the PC's became so completely unstoppable that nothing I could throw at them would actually be a challenge anymore, and NPC's needed pages and pages of charms (Which I just started short handing).
At least in terms of 1st edition... It was emphasized the Wyld Hunt was really fucked up... it was relying on more mortal support than Dragon Blooded, and god no they couldn't afford any Sidherals to be leading it either. All the important Dragon Blooded were to busy back in the realm dealing with the up coming civil war..
So that meant it was only the religious fanatics and young untested Dragon Blooded going after the Exalted... which meant getting slaughtered by a circle of even starting Solars... and that's something to remember, it's not suppose to be 1 starting Solar, it's typically 4 to 5... 3 newbie Dragon Blooded, 1 experienced monk and 20 mortals are going to get utterly destroyed by that group..
Of course the realm could throw more... but that's where the original genius of the setting comes into play. The Scavenger Lands are fucking huge, and NOT directly under control of the Realm. The Wyld hunt has an even harder time sending agents there, because of the sheer size and complete lack of back up... And, in 1st edition, Lookshy didn't give a flying fuck about Solars either. They were far more focused on keeping the Scavenger lands free of the Realm.
You also have the sheer size of creation, and this cannot be stated enough... Creation is fucking huge... there are hundreds of miles between the city states, and the blessed isle itself is bigger than Asia... There were huge empty spaces on the map where you could plop down and create your own entire kingdoms..
Sure, the Solars should be sticking away from experienced elder Lunars they don't have alliance with, or the stronghold of a Deathlord, and there's more than enough space for them to do so, and get stronger. Solars are typically on the move because of being hunted, but there's nothing stopping them from setting up shop in a GM created Kingdom which is ruled by a handful of outcaste Dragon Blooded, kicking it over and taking it as their own...
And again, because of the sheer size of creation (And the fact there'a also like 200 other Solars running around, so the Wyld Hunt can't focus on all of them at once) they'll have plenty of time to do their own thing..
Then we get to a city like Nexus... for pete sake here guys, Nexus was the home base of Dace and his Mercenaris.. his entire circle lived in Nexus... openly, and nobody fucked with Nexus because a god protected the place, and it was part of the river compact...
Now this is all from a 1st edition perspective... I didn't like the changes to 2nd and I like the ones of 3rd even less... But this whole argument that Solars were dead the moment they hit the ground, is dumb and false.
Exalted's problem has always been it's system, and fans who became writers who decided to twist the core setting to their own vision rather than sticking with what made it work.
Guys, thank you for writing this. I was starting to get tired repeating the same thing to people that wouldn't even listen to the corebook...:)
Special thanks to yabaziou for overcoming his or her* personal dislike for me;).
*Sorry if your gender is supposed to be obvious, the name doesn't help me at all!
Quote from: Orphan81;900818The big equalizer in combat between Dragon Blooded and Solars, is Dragon Blooded don't have perfect defenses. They have Perfect Defenses against mortals, but they're undodgable hits don't work on Celestial Exalted, and they're perfect blocks just shatter against Solar charm backed attacks..
My PC's slaughtered Dragon Blooded by the bucketful. An Alpha Strike just using the dice adder of starting charms could give more successes than the DB could conceivably dodge or parry...We also used Exalted Power Combat from the player's guide which made combat even more deadly... and this actually helped me in making DB's be more of a threat since minimum damage became your Essence rating..
It allowed me to throw older Essence 6 and 7 Dragon Blooded who could give the younger Solars an actual fight..
But again, it was the perfect defenses which really pushed Solars above all the other threats (except for Abyssals who were their equal, and fuck Infernals they didn't exist until late first edition and they're stupid.. fuck em). The biggest baddest attack of any other creature could be completely negated by heavenly guardian defense, Iron Kettle body, or Seven Shadow Evasion... it was more than easy for starting Solars to have one of these... and 1st edition even had a sidebar which encouraged players to take some of those survival charms..
This doesn't even get into the Charms which allowed a free dodge/parry against any and all attacks made against them. Once the PC's got these numbers no longer mattered... No need to split dice pools, no Onslaught penalties...A Dawn with Solar counter attack and Five fold Bulwark defense could kill an entire party of Essence 2 Dragon blooded in one round, if they all made the mistake of attacking him at once. Thrown in PC stunts and they should be getting essence back on every action as well.
If your Solars were getting slaughtered by your average Dragon blooded, then I can only assume your ST was cheating, or you built crappy Solars. In 1st edition Dragon Blooded got double artifact points because they NEEDED them in order to have any hope of a starting Dragon Blooded being some kind of fight for a starting solar, rather than just a speed bump.
Within about 5 sessions, parties of Dragon Blooded against my PC's had to be 2 to 1 in order to make it a real fight... Or 1 Elder Dragon blooded leading a party of younger ones.. Eventually, Dragon Blooded just weren't an issue unless they were 6 or 7 essence level... 1st edition Exalted just had to many hard brakes on Dragon Blooded. Their charms were only about half as effective against Celestial Exalted... My PC's moved quickly to challenging Lunars and Abyssals who were a much stronger and worthy series of opponents... Abyssals being the complete equals of Solars helped, and I just had to front load a Lunar with far more XP than them and they were a good challenge.
In the end, I'm honestly curious to hear stories of your PC's getting killed by a group of Dragon Blooded. How many were there? How many Solars were in your party?
Because once my PC's hit Essence 5, they had access to Solar Level Sorcery, Multiple Martial Arts styles, and Top Tier Solar combat charms capable of completely decimating any other Exalted type not a Deathlord or Abyssal of equal level, or a Siderhal whose mastered a Sidheral martial arts style.
Yeah, that's exactly my experience of 2e and now, it's not really different in 3e.
And these are my conclusions about Nexus' Storyteller as well. That, or I'd like to hear that tale, too...:D
The only part where I disagree with you is where you say "fuck Infernals":p. No, no, no! Don't stick it to the crazies, man:D!
And if any splat ever merited this reaction, it's gotta be Infernals;).
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900814I remember when my bud ran the Daughter of Nexus adventure. Against two combat twinked Solars, one a Dawn and a super strong wrestling Twilight, the NPC Abyssal murdered us in about 4 rounds, and that was after we nerfed the shit out of Zeal I think it was called. Which ever one gave you a unblockable piercing attack midcombat.
The messiest tpk I had was 2 Night, a Zenith and Full Moon Lunar NPC who were slaughtered a single Immaculate Monk (water stylist) and around a half dozen mortal soldiers. Either they were using their charm for the turn for a Perfect (because you did not want to get hit with Death spiral and Bad Touch effects the Immaculate could dish out) or they were throwing combo and burning WP. The DB had some nice "I can't believe its not Perfect" effects and could keep their defenses pretty high. Safety Among Enemies was a bitch particularly in that fight along with Bottomless Depths Defense and Drowning in Blood. All the PCs died. IIRC, the Monk lost 3 HL and almost all the mortals were fine.
That was the worst but a typical example of how combats went. Frustrated the Hell out of my players. In the end I had to simply let them start at Ess 4 or 5 and hand out charms like Halloween candy to balance them against the setting. Or ignore the published material. Or both.
Water Style is almost broken and I say almost because it's got some WP costs attached to it's best charms if I recall.
Dragonblooded have always been my favorite and I'm going to take another look at 3rd when their book comes out in a couple of years.
On a different subject, I often wonder why Solar Exalted seem to unpopular with the online Exalted fan community when allegedly their one of the most frequently and consistently played character types. I remember there being more vocal fans before but most of them seem to have drifted off for various reasons.
And yeah Water Dragon was nasty. The other IO styles were pretty potent to.
I left the Exalted Train before it pulled from the station and had it's glorious seventeen car and caboose pile up when I found out that the 'best combat' caste of Solars was actually kind like D&D has had most of it's Fighters, second fiddle to a properly built Essence Reactor.
So, I decided to get down my old 1e Exalted Core, Dragon Blooded Core, and 1e Player's guide to make some comparisons. Let's take a look.
Let's start with the Dragon Blooded and their "I can't believe it's not Perfect" Defenses. This isn't to insult anyone, I literally want to take a look at the Hard Data and see what was going on in our campaigns to find out why things were so different..
So in terms of combat ability, the Dragon Blooded have a few neat charms..
Thrown has Persistent Hornet Attack which was one of my favorite to use against my PC's... It's an annoying distraction, but that's all it is.. an annoying distraction... A single strike takes it out of the sky. Of course when used by an Essence 6 or 7 Dragon blooded that's hard as hell without charms, but your common dragon blooded it's going to be a 2 or 3 difficulty.
Wind Weapon is also pretty good, but the character needs a Thrown of 5, and at base, they only do 3 damage (min essence required) and you can throw 3 of them. They can be split between multiple targets or all thrown at one target... But if a Solar uses a perfect, well they're all wasted. Still, if you can get about 5 successes per attack, you can get around a base 8 damage for each one... Again though, if the Solar is wearing a Chain Shirt with a Stamina 2, you're looking at rolling 4 dice at difficulty 7.. about one damage... If they're wearing medium armor of Lamelear... you're rolling 1 dice of damage for each attack...If using power combat, that DB will get at least 3 dice... a decent attack, but unless you're rolling all 7s, it's still pinging a target.
Elemental Bolt attack does a base 2L for every essence point spent, limited by the character's stamina.. You're average DB is going to do about 6L which is shit damage in Exalted. They also still have to hit the target. Elemental Blast does 1L per essence and is an area attack but is stlll limited... Also, both of these attacks can be parried...PARRIED...
Dragon Vortex Attack is actually a scary attack, but it Requires an Essence 4, Lore 5 Dragon Blooded... Which means a Veteran of about 100+ years... Most Dragon Blooded don't ever achieve Essence level 4 or 5, and it's important to remember that.
Five Dragon Invulnerability is a perfect defense.....unless the attack is made with a weapon of the 5 magical materials, backed by a charm, or is socrery...than it just gives you extra soak equal to your Essence... 3 extra soak for 1 attack, and all it cost was 5 motes and a willpower!
Five Dragon Wrath lets them do multiple attacks equal to their essence, against 1 target, for 1 essence per attack and 1 Health level of damage. However, the defender only has to make 1 parry roll to block all of them..
Impervious Skin of Stone is good... except again, any attack backed by a charm completely ignores it..
Defense from Anthema is actually a good charm to fight Solars.. it cost 6 motes and 1 willpower and requires a minimum essence of 4 Resistance 5... But you add +4 difficulty to all attacks backed by charms against you. Not something your average DB is going to have, but awesome if you're making an Elder DB and making him fucking dangerous.
Falling Star Method is a nice little adder for DB's, you can double your essence as extra damage before soak is applied. Nice to use if you don't do anything else for an attack.
Safety among enemies is nasty....If the attacks are grouped together. If the PC's are standing in a cluster around one another, they deserve to get hit by this attack. Otherwise this is very situational, in closed quarters it's good...
Arrow Consuming Method is also a nice one... but again, if the weapon is five magical materials, or stone... they completely ignore the charm.
Portentious Comet Deflecting attack is a perfect defense costing 3 motes and 1 willpower.... and it automatically fails against any attack powered by a charm or made of magic materials.
Threshing Floor Technique is perfect if 10 Dragon Blooded get to 1 Solar by themselves... and is completely useless if it's against an entire circle (Unless the number of DB's multiplies by a factor of 5 for each 1) and the moment the Solar has a scene long defense, it's less than useful.
Rising Anvil Onslaught cost 8 motes, and lets you roll base melee alone. Each success gives you 1 extra attack against a single target. Extra attacks become less of an issue when Solars have scene long defenses.
Anyways, that's enough for the base Terrestrial Charms, the big thing to come away with from them is the following..
1.) Dragon Blooded have Zero perfect defenses effective against a Solar, and Zero scene long Defensive abilities.
A Solar circle who simply attacks a single Dragon blooded together is going to kill them in 1 round. The poor bastard just doesn't have anything they can do beyond use a shit load of soak charms, hope and pray...
Which leads into two..
2.) Their dice adders can only spend essence equal to their ability score.
3.) Their best Charms are behind a Essence 4 minimum wall..
Unless you're a cruel GM, most of the Dragon Blooded your characters encounter at the beginning of the game are going to be Essence 2, and are going to be about 3 in their chosen attributes. Your Solars should not be running into Essence 4/5 Ability 5 Dragon Blooded every where they go. On equal terms, 4 v 4 the Solars should completely and utterly mop the floor with average Dragon blooded. It shouldn't even be a contest, the Solars just have so much advantage..
Bigger Essence Pools, Bigger dice adder charms, Better Ox-Body, Better Charms overall.
By Comparison let's briefly go over some of the common 1e Solar Charms..
One Weapon two blows is a double attack against one opponent right out the gate, for only 2 essence(PG errated it down from 3). Peony Blossom is 1 extra attack up to your permanent essence for 3 motes. These are early level charms...
Dipping Swallow Defense gives you an immediate defense against any attack for 2 essence. The Dragon Blooded have nothing like it. It's a very early charm. Five Fold Bulwark is a scene long defense, and of course Heavenly Guardian is a perfect, it's also cheaper than the Dragon blooded version 3 motes to 5.
Solar Counterattack just makes things worse when combined with a scene long defense.. Not only do they get to roll to defense against the Dragon blooded attack, but they also get a free attack on the Dragon Blooded... which if successful and kills them, negates the DB's attack entirely..
God forbid the Dragon Blooded is stupid enough to use threshing floor technique and the Solar activates "Ready in 8 directions" in response... that is a shit ton of dead dragon blooded.
Blazing Solar Bolt is an autohit on a Dragon blooded. They literally cannot defend against it in any single way.
Accuracy without Distance is also an automatic successful hit against a DB target, they have no way to negate it.
Trance of Unhesitating Speed, again 3 motes per extra attack..
Arrow Storm Technique lets a Solar hit every single target in an area in one round. If the Dragon Blooded Wyld hunt brings a contingent of 20 mortals with them. This charm will kill every single one of them in a single round. (Remember as Extras they only have 3 health levels, 9 raw damage is an automatic kill)
For 5 motes, Cascade of Cutting Terror can give a PC 20 to 26 dice for an attack (Depending on if you allow specialties to +3) against a single target. Once more, the Dragon Blooded cannot use any defenses against this. The only thing they can do is pump up their base dice pool and hope they can parry.
Blood Thirsty Sword Dancer Spirit gives +3 to all of the Exalted dice pools and lets them completely ignore all wound penalties for the scene..
Iron Skin reduces any attack made against the character to minimum damage (Typically essence) and is Compatiable with armor, which brings hardness into play and can reduce the damage to 0 then.
Anyway, that's enough with the Solar charms. There are just so many ways the Solars can no sell a Dragon Blooded attack while also turning them into a fine red mist. 1st edition Exalted fit the setting... It took hundreds of Dragon blooded and thousands of mortal troops to take down a single experienced Solar. A group of 5 Solars with 3-4 sessions under their belt, are going to steam roll 5 competent Dragon blooded.
Now if you're using a Dragon Blooded whose a Master of an elemental style... that's 12 charms and a minimum essence of 4. This is not a starting Dragon Blooded. This is a Dragon Blooded Elder. Given their charms are equivalent to Celestial level, the character is no longer fighting a typical "Dragon Blooded", they are fighting something that's almost a Celestial Exalted... they should expect a tougher fight..
But 5 Solars against 1 Master? They're going to kill that master good..
If your PC's were falling before the might of Dragon Blooded, they either made incompetent characters, or the enemies you were throwing at them had gobs more experience points than them.
Quote from: Orphan81;900849If your PC's were falling before the might of Dragon Blooded, they either made incompetent characters, or the enemies you were throwing at them had gobs more experience points than them.
They weren't starting PCs but were fairly experienced and I don't recall exactly how much experience. The Monk in question hasn't completed the Style yet and not "gobs" of exp ahead of them. As far "incompetent" no, they weren't ruthlessly optimized but hardly "incompetent". None of us thought they'd have to be a 3 to 1 numbers advantage. If it had only happened once I'd have though it a fluke but similar things happened for the length of the games I ran, played and directly observed. I heard allot White Room disvcussions online of invincible solars, never saw them in play.
Believe me, it added to the frustration I and other players felt. Some jumped ship. The results were similar in combat arenas and there were truly min max out builds. Lunars tended to dominate those or Sids with SMA. Nasty stuff.
That particular battle was a long time ago I can't give you a blow by blow and frankly I don't want to rehash an argument that it feels like I've been having for the last 10 yrs. May have been 2ed edition (I recall DVs coming into play but it was a long time ago) for that matter but the results were as I described them and were pretty common across both editions. So there you go.
Why are we looking at first edition rules? Is there any example dragon bloods in the third edition? We should look at that since this forum is about the third edition.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;900814I remember when my bud ran the Daughter of Nexus adventure. Against two combat twinked Solars, one a Dawn and a super strong wrestling Twilight, the NPC Abyssal murdered us in about 4 rounds, and that was after we nerfed the shit out of Zeal I think it was called. Which ever one gave you a unblockable piercing attack midcombat.
Not to mention the frequent, "Hold on guys, I need to read this Charm again...". The theory of
Exalted has always been awesome and it was so different and cool when it was released. The practice has blown screaming chunks at the moon for a very long time.
Quote from: Orphan81;900849So, I decided to get down my old 1e Exalted Core, Dragon Blooded Core, and 1e Player's guide to make some comparisons. Let's take a look.
Let's start with the Dragon Blooded and their "I can't believe it's not Perfect" Defenses. This isn't to insult anyone, I literally want to take a look at the Hard Data and see what was going on in our campaigns to find out why things were so different..
So in terms of combat ability, the Dragon Blooded have a few neat charms..
Thrown has Persistent Hornet Attack which was one of my favorite to use against my PC's... It's an annoying distraction, but that's all it is.. an annoying distraction... A single strike takes it out of the sky. Of course when used by an Essence 6 or 7 Dragon blooded that's hard as hell without charms, but your common dragon blooded it's going to be a 2 or 3 difficulty.
Wind Weapon is also pretty good, but the character needs a Thrown of 5, and at base, they only do 3 damage (min essence required) and you can throw 3 of them. They can be split between multiple targets or all thrown at one target... But if a Solar uses a perfect, well they're all wasted. Still, if you can get about 5 successes per attack, you can get around a base 8 damage for each one... Again though, if the Solar is wearing a Chain Shirt with a Stamina 2, you're looking at rolling 4 dice at difficulty 7.. about one damage... If they're wearing medium armor of Lamelear... you're rolling 1 dice of damage for each attack...If using power combat, that DB will get at least 3 dice... a decent attack, but unless you're rolling all 7s, it's still pinging a target.
Elemental Bolt attack does a base 2L for every essence point spent, limited by the character's stamina.. You're average DB is going to do about 6L which is shit damage in Exalted. They also still have to hit the target. Elemental Blast does 1L per essence and is an area attack but is stlll limited... Also, both of these attacks can be parried...PARRIED...
Dragon Vortex Attack is actually a scary attack, but it Requires an Essence 4, Lore 5 Dragon Blooded... Which means a Veteran of about 100+ years... Most Dragon Blooded don't ever achieve Essence level 4 or 5, and it's important to remember that.
Five Dragon Invulnerability is a perfect defense.....unless the attack is made with a weapon of the 5 magical materials, backed by a charm, or is socrery...than it just gives you extra soak equal to your Essence... 3 extra soak for 1 attack, and all it cost was 5 motes and a willpower!
Five Dragon Wrath lets them do multiple attacks equal to their essence, against 1 target, for 1 essence per attack and 1 Health level of damage. However, the defender only has to make 1 parry roll to block all of them..
Impervious Skin of Stone is good... except again, any attack backed by a charm completely ignores it..
Defense from Anthema is actually a good charm to fight Solars.. it cost 6 motes and 1 willpower and requires a minimum essence of 4 Resistance 5... But you add +4 difficulty to all attacks backed by charms against you. Not something your average DB is going to have, but awesome if you're making an Elder DB and making him fucking dangerous.
Falling Star Method is a nice little adder for DB's, you can double your essence as extra damage before soak is applied. Nice to use if you don't do anything else for an attack.
Safety among enemies is nasty....If the attacks are grouped together. If the PC's are standing in a cluster around one another, they deserve to get hit by this attack. Otherwise this is very situational, in closed quarters it's good...
Arrow Consuming Method is also a nice one... but again, if the weapon is five magical materials, or stone... they completely ignore the charm.
Portentious Comet Deflecting attack is a perfect defense costing 3 motes and 1 willpower.... and it automatically fails against any attack powered by a charm or made of magic materials.
Threshing Floor Technique is perfect if 10 Dragon Blooded get to 1 Solar by themselves... and is completely useless if it's against an entire circle (Unless the number of DB's multiplies by a factor of 5 for each 1) and the moment the Solar has a scene long defense, it's less than useful.
Rising Anvil Onslaught cost 8 motes, and lets you roll base melee alone. Each success gives you 1 extra attack against a single target. Extra attacks become less of an issue when Solars have scene long defenses.
Anyways, that's enough for the base Terrestrial Charms, the big thing to come away with from them is the following..
1.) Dragon Blooded have Zero perfect defenses effective against a Solar, and Zero scene long Defensive abilities.
A Solar circle who simply attacks a single Dragon blooded together is going to kill them in 1 round. The poor bastard just doesn't have anything they can do beyond use a shit load of soak charms, hope and pray...
Which leads into two..
2.) Their dice adders can only spend essence equal to their ability score.
3.) Their best Charms are behind a Essence 4 minimum wall..
Unless you're a cruel GM, most of the Dragon Blooded your characters encounter at the beginning of the game are going to be Essence 2, and are going to be about 3 in their chosen attributes. Your Solars should not be running into Essence 4/5 Ability 5 Dragon Blooded every where they go. On equal terms, 4 v 4 the Solars should completely and utterly mop the floor with average Dragon blooded. It shouldn't even be a contest, the Solars just have so much advantage..
Bigger Essence Pools, Bigger dice adder charms, Better Ox-Body, Better Charms overall.
By Comparison let's briefly go over some of the common 1e Solar Charms..
One Weapon two blows is a double attack against one opponent right out the gate, for only 2 essence(PG errated it down from 3). Peony Blossom is 1 extra attack up to your permanent essence for 3 motes. These are early level charms...
Dipping Swallow Defense gives you an immediate defense against any attack for 2 essence. The Dragon Blooded have nothing like it. It's a very early charm. Five Fold Bulwark is a scene long defense, and of course Heavenly Guardian is a perfect, it's also cheaper than the Dragon blooded version 3 motes to 5.
Solar Counterattack just makes things worse when combined with a scene long defense.. Not only do they get to roll to defense against the Dragon blooded attack, but they also get a free attack on the Dragon Blooded... which if successful and kills them, negates the DB's attack entirely..
God forbid the Dragon Blooded is stupid enough to use threshing floor technique and the Solar activates "Ready in 8 directions" in response... that is a shit ton of dead dragon blooded.
Blazing Solar Bolt is an autohit on a Dragon blooded. They literally cannot defend against it in any single way.
Accuracy without Distance is also an automatic successful hit against a DB target, they have no way to negate it.
Trance of Unhesitating Speed, again 3 motes per extra attack..
Arrow Storm Technique lets a Solar hit every single target in an area in one round. If the Dragon Blooded Wyld hunt brings a contingent of 20 mortals with them. This charm will kill every single one of them in a single round. (Remember as Extras they only have 3 health levels, 9 raw damage is an automatic kill)
For 5 motes, Cascade of Cutting Terror can give a PC 20 to 26 dice for an attack (Depending on if you allow specialties to +3) against a single target. Once more, the Dragon Blooded cannot use any defenses against this. The only thing they can do is pump up their base dice pool and hope they can parry.
Blood Thirsty Sword Dancer Spirit gives +3 to all of the Exalted dice pools and lets them completely ignore all wound penalties for the scene..
Iron Skin reduces any attack made against the character to minimum damage (Typically essence) and is Compatiable with armor, which brings hardness into play and can reduce the damage to 0 then.
Anyway, that's enough with the Solar charms. There are just so many ways the Solars can no sell a Dragon Blooded attack while also turning them into a fine red mist. 1st edition Exalted fit the setting... It took hundreds of Dragon blooded and thousands of mortal troops to take down a single experienced Solar. A group of 5 Solars with 3-4 sessions under their belt, are going to steam roll 5 competent Dragon blooded.
Now if you're using a Dragon Blooded whose a Master of an elemental style... that's 12 charms and a minimum essence of 4. This is not a starting Dragon Blooded. This is a Dragon Blooded Elder. Given their charms are equivalent to Celestial level, the character is no longer fighting a typical "Dragon Blooded", they are fighting something that's almost a Celestial Exalted... they should expect a tougher fight..
But 5 Solars against 1 Master? They're going to kill that master good..
If your PC's were falling before the might of Dragon Blooded, they either made incompetent characters, or the enemies you were throwing at them had gobs more experience points than them.
Props for being good at the rules but, ugh! Look at that! That's fucking ridiculous! There is far too much micromanaging and bookkeeping for a GM. And Ex3 is the most intricate version, supposedly? Fuck that.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900852Not to mention the frequent, "Hold on guys, I need to read this Charm again...". The theory of Exalted has always been awesome and it was so different and cool when it was released. The practice has blown screaming chunks at the moon for a very long time.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900855Props for being good at the rules but, ugh! Look at that! That's fucking ridiculous! There is far too much micromanaging and bookkeeping for a GM. And Ex3 is the most intricate version, supposedly? Fuck that.
I maintain, still, that Exalted is a game that actively despises the GM. If there's a way that to complicate the GM's life, it does it!
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900852Not to mention the frequent, "Hold on guys, I need to read this Charm again...". The theory of Exalted has always been awesome and it was so different and cool when it was released. The practice has blown screaming chunks at the moon for a very long time.
Yeah, that wasn't particularly enjoyable. Nor the fact that you had to power down the bloody thing just so we didn't get one shotted.
Quote from: Nexus;900802It doesn't take their best. "Typical" Dragonblooded will do particularly when they can outnumber a Solar Circle 2-3 to 1. With the difference between Celestial and Terrestrial power narrowed and most of the Terrestrials likely being more experienced (particularly given the stats in the book) and it becomes more lopasided.
The "underfunded" Wyld Hunt just means they must prioritize their targets more instead of playing Wack-a-mole anytime a Solar pops up. They don't show up on your door step the day after you Exalt. The problem being that the moment you start to do the things the game bills itself as being about you ping and here comes the hammer. Particularly building a power base since that' allegedly something Solars are good at (though there little mechanical support for leadership and kingdom building but that's another issue.)
Also its been stated the Realm isn't as "weak and staggering" as it was before...
The Empress and her access to the Realm Defense grid never was the Bronze';s primary weapon against the Solars and other "anathema". It was the Immaculate Order, it military and its spiritual grip on most of Creation. It provides resources, information and slows Solar power build up. Their warriors are exceptionally powerful and they have to pull to draw in mortals for backup.
The Sids other best resources is Heaven and the Bureau of Fate: information, supernatural resources and comparatively lightning fast transport around Creation via Celestial Gates among other things. Again, it doesn't a hit squad of Sids just one with moderate Essence that gets surprise. And they're very good at that or they can just sic other opponents on you.
Nexus, I sincerely think you have not understand what I was trying to say about the Scarlett Empress and the Bronze Faction. But it is my bad, I was kinda unclear on this.
First of all, I want to be clear. My knowledge of the setting of Exalted comes from the 1st and 2nd edition of which I own a fuck ton of books (owning RPGs books is my vice and most of them were bought cheap on Amazon), so I ignore the setting changes induce by Ex 3 (wich I have not intention to buy before I do not want to reward with my money the unsufferable bunch of windbags that the Ex 3 development team is).
I never intended to write that the Scarlett Empress is the main asset of the Bronze Faction against the Solars. She is not ! Their main asset was the fucking cube prison where they put the Solars exaltations at the end of the Usurpation. The Wyld Hunt was implemented to destroy the rare Solar was escape the soul prison, only one popped every decade (this fact explained why it is not efficient in the current state of affairs in Cration since now 200 Solars have made their way back to the world). The Ream Defense Grid is there to fuck up the Faeries (which is a good thing for all the beings living in Creation) but it is totally not the adequate tool for Solar hunting (killing flies with nuclear bombs is not cost efficient).
The Bronze faction views the Scarlett Empress as an useful tool for their vision of Creation under the Dragon Blooded rules (hence the Bronze Faction) because they suffer from the vizier syndrom (or the Iznogoud syndrom). Note the Empress is not their tool of choice but rather of convenience.
The Siderals are only an 100 strong and all of them are not members of the Bronze faction. So all of them are not hell bent to destroy the Solars whenever they appear (a wild Solar appears ! ^_^). Morever, a siginificant number of them actually oppose the Bronze Faction (the Gold faction) and they have some ressources to oppose the scrying of the Bronze faction. And the Siderals have also more pressing matters to attend than the resurgence of the Solars : the disappearance of the Empress and the chaos that ensues in the Realm (the looming civil wars of the main Dragon Blooded Houses), the Deathlords and their minions threats which is a big unkown for the Siderals and their jobs in the Celestial Bueaucracy, to name of few.
The Wyld Hund is currently underfounded and view has a relic of the past where sent unwanted Terresterial Exalted, with few exceptions (unless they change this in Ex 3 and screw they if they have done that !). So I seriously doubt that is a reasonable expectation to say that your 4/5 strong Solar Cirlce is bound to fight against a comptent fighting force of 10 to 15 strong experimented Dragon Blooded ! The Realm is in a dire state (in compraison of its best times), so no useful Exalted will diverted in huntinf the Anathema (again, they might have change that and again fuck them in the ear for this !).
@AsenG : I am a he (actually i should write that my personal pronoms of choice are he/his/him or that I identify as a he/him/his but the Patriarchy is strong in me ! ^_^) but knowing my given name (which is Yann by the way) would not help you anyway to guess my gender since it is a name that can be given to boys and girls indifferently (same speeling and pronounciation). And, of course, me hating agreeing with you was a factious remark from me and a jab to the fact that you are one of the few users there who enjoy Ex 3, something that I glad for you given the money you have put in it !
Quote from: Snowman0147;900851Why are we looking at first edition rules? Is there any example dragon bloods in the third edition? We should look at that since this forum is about the third edition.
The discussion veered toward whether Solars were capable of taking down their opposition in the first place under any rule set. Nexus's experience tells him No, my Experience tells me yes. I broke down first edition rules to support my hypothesis.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900855Props for being good at the rules but, ugh! Look at that! That's fucking ridiculous! There is far too much micromanaging and bookkeeping for a GM. And Ex3 is the most intricate version, supposedly? Fuck that.
I completely agree... but back when I had just turned 20, and was a college student when 1st edition Exalted came out, I had plenty of time to learn all the rules, and so did my players.. and yet even then, as the campaign went on, the sheer list of powers became overwhelming..
Now in my mid 30s, I don't want to go anywhere near it. I'll just use Godbound instead.
Quote from: Orphan81;900818Thrown in PC stunts and they should be getting essence back on every action as well.
And there's the rub. In every single campaign I played in, except the one I ran, the GM was an absolute fucking dick about stunts. You could give one guy a fucking essay about the awesomeness of your attack and he'd be like "here's your 1 mote stunt." Another guy just didn't. I had to deprogram one guy because he was slowing down my game with the essay stunts because it was total overkill.
No 2 die stunts and suddenly your combos are SUPER limited. No stunts at all and your motes run out fast and you hit essence displays faster. Even then a lot of stuff is not very mote efficient so stunts never really fully recover so you get ground down.
Yes I realize this is all shitty GM stuff but honestly all WW games have been shit head magnets as far as I can tell.
Quote from: KingCheops;900926And there's the rub. In every single campaign I played in, except the one I ran, the GM was an absolute fucking dick about stunts. You could give one guy a fucking essay about the awesomeness of your attack and he'd be like "here's your 1 mote stunt." Another guy just didn't. I had to deprogram one guy because he was slowing down my game with the essay stunts because it was total overkill.
No 2 die stunts and suddenly your combos are SUPER limited. No stunts at all and your motes run out fast and you hit essence displays faster. Even then a lot of stuff is not very mote efficient so stunts never really fully recover so you get ground down.
Yes I realize this is all shitty GM stuff but honestly all WW games have been shit head magnets as far as I can tell.
Yeah 1 and 2 die stunts are supposed to be super easy. Like 1 die, did you say more than "I hit him with my sword?" Here have a stunt die and some essence. For 2 die stunts: did you use the setting, ANY PART OF THE SETTING, in your stunt? Kick up some dust, breeze blowing through your hair, kicked off a wall, ANYTHING? Congrats, here's a two die stunt and some essence.
You see similar things in D&D 3.x and above where the DM sets average difficulties too high.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900855Props for being good at the rules but, ugh! Look at that! That's fucking ridiculous! There is far too much micromanaging and bookkeeping for a GM. And Ex3 is the most intricate version, supposedly? Fuck that.
It was/is a chore to gm. And the Rock/Paper/Scissors methodology in combat was annoying. Most things had counters but if you lacked those counters you tended to go splat. "Rocket Tag" as some called it and lead to John Chung Exalted and paranoia combos.
re: Stunting: It was more difficult for some than other from both sides of the screen. You weren't supposed to repeat stunts and battles could be protracted it did get mentally taxing for some and a little repetitive since it was so critical. GMs sometimes felt that it was either redundant or "too easy". It felt more forced than fun since it was such vital things to do. The change in mote economy is one thing in 3rd that I do regard as a positive with odd situations it can create.
Quote from: Orphan81;900849But 5 Solars against 1 Master? They're going to kill that master good.
Just for accuracy sake it was 3 and a Lunar NPC. The characters are as I recall were built along the suggested guidelines and rating for capable combatants and by raw ratings looked good. I'm actually less of an optimizer than most of the people I played with so it wasn't fabulous builds that were leading to issues. And it wasn't just one group.
In general, I can't stand having to judge players to reward them, at least when it comes to stunts. I've known/know great RPers who get tongue-tied during stunts and I refuse to penalize them for not being what WW/OPP saw/sees as worthy. Their pretentiousness is staggering when it comes to stunts...or their games in general, to be honest.
It's not just stunts that I'm light-handed with. If a player can't come up with snazzy IC dialogue, I don't penalize them because "they didn't role play". Their dice can do the talking. I don't make the player of a fighter show me his skill with a greatsword, the dice do that. If somebody's amped and uses the same stunt over and over, that's fine. The basest description is enough to make me happy.
Quote from: Nexus;900824The messiest tpk I had was 2 Night, a Zenith and Full Moon Lunar NPC who were slaughtered a single Immaculate Monk (water stylist) and around a half dozen mortal soldiers. Either they were using their charm for the turn for a Perfect (because you did not want to get hit with Death spiral and Bad Touch effects the Immaculate could dish out) or they were throwing combo and burning WP. The DB had some nice "I can't believe its not Perfect" effects and could keep their defenses pretty high. Safety Among Enemies was a bitch particularly in that fight along with Bottomless Depths Defense and Drowning in Blood. All the PCs died. IIRC, the Monk lost 3 HL and almost all the mortals were fine.
That was the worst but a typical example of how combats went. Frustrated the Hell out of my players. In the end I had to simply let them start at Ess 4 or 5 and hand out charms like Halloween candy to balance them against the setting. Or ignore the published material. Or both.
Man, Water Dragon is an equalizer. But still, not daring to attack? Even when using comboes?
Didn't nobody have a Perfect Defence+Attack Dice Adder combo, or something? Because then the DB dies, pure and simple.
Quote from: Orphan81;900849So, I decided to get down my old 1e Exalted Core, Dragon Blooded Core, and 1e Player's guide to make some comparisons. Let's take a look.
Let's start with the Dragon Blooded and their "I can't believe it's not Perfect" Defenses. This isn't to insult anyone, I literally want to take a look at the Hard Data and see what was going on in our campaigns to find out why things were so different..
So in terms of combat ability, the Dragon Blooded have a few neat charms..
Thrown has Persistent Hornet Attack which was one of my favorite to use against my PC's... It's an annoying distraction, but that's all it is.. an annoying distraction... A single strike takes it out of the sky. Of course when used by an Essence 6 or 7 Dragon blooded that's hard as hell without charms, but your common dragon blooded it's going to be a 2 or 3 difficulty.
Wind Weapon is also pretty good, but the character needs a Thrown of 5, and at base, they only do 3 damage (min essence required) and you can throw 3 of them. They can be split between multiple targets or all thrown at one target... But if a Solar uses a perfect, well they're all wasted. Still, if you can get about 5 successes per attack, you can get around a base 8 damage for each one... Again though, if the Solar is wearing a Chain Shirt with a Stamina 2, you're looking at rolling 4 dice at difficulty 7.. about one damage... If they're wearing medium armor of Lamelear... you're rolling 1 dice of damage for each attack...If using power combat, that DB will get at least 3 dice... a decent attack, but unless you're rolling all 7s, it's still pinging a target.
Elemental Bolt attack does a base 2L for every essence point spent, limited by the character's stamina.. You're average DB is going to do about 6L which is shit damage in Exalted. They also still have to hit the target. Elemental Blast does 1L per essence and is an area attack but is stlll limited... Also, both of these attacks can be parried...PARRIED...
Dragon Vortex Attack is actually a scary attack, but it Requires an Essence 4, Lore 5 Dragon Blooded... Which means a Veteran of about 100+ years... Most Dragon Blooded don't ever achieve Essence level 4 or 5, and it's important to remember that.
Five Dragon Invulnerability is a perfect defense.....unless the attack is made with a weapon of the 5 magical materials, backed by a charm, or is socrery...than it just gives you extra soak equal to your Essence... 3 extra soak for 1 attack, and all it cost was 5 motes and a willpower!
Five Dragon Wrath lets them do multiple attacks equal to their essence, against 1 target, for 1 essence per attack and 1 Health level of damage. However, the defender only has to make 1 parry roll to block all of them..
Impervious Skin of Stone is good... except again, any attack backed by a charm completely ignores it..
Defense from Anthema is actually a good charm to fight Solars.. it cost 6 motes and 1 willpower and requires a minimum essence of 4 Resistance 5... But you add +4 difficulty to all attacks backed by charms against you. Not something your average DB is going to have, but awesome if you're making an Elder DB and making him fucking dangerous.
Falling Star Method is a nice little adder for DB's, you can double your essence as extra damage before soak is applied. Nice to use if you don't do anything else for an attack.
Safety among enemies is nasty....If the attacks are grouped together. If the PC's are standing in a cluster around one another, they deserve to get hit by this attack. Otherwise this is very situational, in closed quarters it's good...
Arrow Consuming Method is also a nice one... but again, if the weapon is five magical materials, or stone... they completely ignore the charm.
Portentious Comet Deflecting attack is a perfect defense costing 3 motes and 1 willpower.... and it automatically fails against any attack powered by a charm or made of magic materials.
Threshing Floor Technique is perfect if 10 Dragon Blooded get to 1 Solar by themselves... and is completely useless if it's against an entire circle (Unless the number of DB's multiplies by a factor of 5 for each 1) and the moment the Solar has a scene long defense, it's less than useful.
Rising Anvil Onslaught cost 8 motes, and lets you roll base melee alone. Each success gives you 1 extra attack against a single target. Extra attacks become less of an issue when Solars have scene long defenses.
Anyways, that's enough for the base Terrestrial Charms, the big thing to come away with from them is the following..
1.) Dragon Blooded have Zero perfect defenses effective against a Solar, and Zero scene long Defensive abilities.
A Solar circle who simply attacks a single Dragon blooded together is going to kill them in 1 round. The poor bastard just doesn't have anything they can do beyond use a shit load of soak charms, hope and pray...
Which leads into two..
2.) Their dice adders can only spend essence equal to their ability score.
3.) Their best Charms are behind a Essence 4 minimum wall..
Unless you're a cruel GM, most of the Dragon Blooded your characters encounter at the beginning of the game are going to be Essence 2, and are going to be about 3 in their chosen attributes. Your Solars should not be running into Essence 4/5 Ability 5 Dragon Blooded every where they go. On equal terms, 4 v 4 the Solars should completely and utterly mop the floor with average Dragon blooded. It shouldn't even be a contest, the Solars just have so much advantage..
Bigger Essence Pools, Bigger dice adder charms, Better Ox-Body, Better Charms overall.
By Comparison let's briefly go over some of the common 1e Solar Charms..
One Weapon two blows is a double attack against one opponent right out the gate, for only 2 essence(PG errated it down from 3). Peony Blossom is 1 extra attack up to your permanent essence for 3 motes. These are early level charms...
Dipping Swallow Defense gives you an immediate defense against any attack for 2 essence. The Dragon Blooded have nothing like it. It's a very early charm. Five Fold Bulwark is a scene long defense, and of course Heavenly Guardian is a perfect, it's also cheaper than the Dragon blooded version 3 motes to 5.
Solar Counterattack just makes things worse when combined with a scene long defense.. Not only do they get to roll to defense against the Dragon blooded attack, but they also get a free attack on the Dragon Blooded... which if successful and kills them, negates the DB's attack entirely..
God forbid the Dragon Blooded is stupid enough to use threshing floor technique and the Solar activates "Ready in 8 directions" in response... that is a shit ton of dead dragon blooded.
Blazing Solar Bolt is an autohit on a Dragon blooded. They literally cannot defend against it in any single way.
Accuracy without Distance is also an automatic successful hit against a DB target, they have no way to negate it.
Trance of Unhesitating Speed, again 3 motes per extra attack..
Arrow Storm Technique lets a Solar hit every single target in an area in one round. If the Dragon Blooded Wyld hunt brings a contingent of 20 mortals with them. This charm will kill every single one of them in a single round. (Remember as Extras they only have 3 health levels, 9 raw damage is an automatic kill)
For 5 motes, Cascade of Cutting Terror can give a PC 20 to 26 dice for an attack (Depending on if you allow specialties to +3) against a single target. Once more, the Dragon Blooded cannot use any defenses against this. The only thing they can do is pump up their base dice pool and hope they can parry.
Blood Thirsty Sword Dancer Spirit gives +3 to all of the Exalted dice pools and lets them completely ignore all wound penalties for the scene..
Iron Skin reduces any attack made against the character to minimum damage (Typically essence) and is Compatiable with armor, which brings hardness into play and can reduce the damage to 0 then.
QuoteAnyway, that's enough with the Solar charms. There are just so many ways the Solars can no sell a Dragon Blooded attack while also turning them into a fine red mist. 1st edition Exalted fit the setting... It took hundreds of Dragon blooded and thousands of mortal troops to take down a single experienced Solar. A group of 5 Solars with 3-4 sessions under their belt, are going to steam roll 5 competent Dragon blooded.
Now if you're using a Dragon Blooded whose a Master of an elemental style... that's 12 charms and a minimum essence of 4. This is not a starting Dragon Blooded. This is a Dragon Blooded Elder. Given their charms are equivalent to Celestial level, the character is no longer fighting a typical "Dragon Blooded", they are fighting something that's almost a Celestial Exalted... they should expect a tougher fight..
But 5 Solars against 1 Master? They're going to kill that master good..
If your PC's were falling before the might of Dragon Blooded, they either made incompetent characters, or the enemies you were throwing at them had gobs more experience points than them.
This, this and one more time, this!
And the situation was much the same in 2e, and seems to be the same in 3e now.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900855Props for being good at the rules but, ugh! Look at that! That's fucking ridiculous! There is far too much micromanaging and bookkeeping for a GM. And Ex3 is the most intricate version, supposedly? Fuck that.
Not such a big deal after you have some experience with it - but simplifying it was one of my wishes for Ex3 that the developers didn't listen to.
Quote from: yabaziou;900869@AsenG : I am a he (actually i should write that my personal pronoms of choice are he/his/him or that I identify as a he/him/his but the Patriarchy is strong in me ! ^_^) but knowing my given name (which is Yann by the way) would not help you anyway to guess my gender since it is a name that can be given to boys and girls indifferently (same speeling and pronounciation). And, of course, me hating agreeing with you was a factious remark from me and a jab to the fact that you are one of the few users there who enjoy Ex 3, something that I glad for you given the money you have put in it !
I'm fine with you using "I'm a he". In my native language, the other thing is untranslatable, or rather, doesn't make a modicum of sense:).
(For that matter, Yan is a name here, but male and female names always have different forms. Always. Unless there are, maybe, one or two that buck the trend, but they're probably recently borrowed).
Quote from: KingCheops;900926And there's the rub. In every single campaign I played in, except the one I ran, the GM was an absolute fucking dick about stunts. You could give one guy a fucking essay about the awesomeness of your attack and he'd be like "here's your 1 mote stunt." Another guy just didn't. I had to deprogram one guy because he was slowing down my game with the essay stunts because it was total overkill.
No 2 die stunts and suddenly your combos are SUPER limited. No stunts at all and your motes run out fast and you hit essence displays faster. Even then a lot of stuff is not very mote efficient so stunts never really fully recover so you get ground down.
Yes I realize this is all shitty GM stuff but honestly all WW games have been shit head magnets as far as I can tell.
Yeah, but - while you
could argue this is WW/OPP's fault, or the community's fault - it's not the game's fault. All that matters for the game are you, your group, and the rulebook(s) you're planning to use.
Not that all my GMs have been easy with stunts. I remember one campaign where we got a total of three 3-die stunts for a year and a half - but the GM just warned us he has stricter ideas than the default, and we agreed to roll with that. (I had a problem with his stunts, but that was because he and I had different ideas for what is an
interesting stunt, and it was a fun game regardless:D).
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;901046In general, I can't stand having to judge players to reward them, at least when it comes to stunts. I've known/know great RPers who get tongue-tied during stunts and I refuse to penalize them for not being what WW/OPP saw/sees as worthy. Their pretentiousness is staggering when it comes to stunts...or their games in general, to be honest.
It's not just stunts that I'm light-handed with. If a player can't come up with snazzy IC dialogue, I don't penalize them because "they didn't role play". Their dice can do the talking. I don't make the player of a fighter show me his skill with a greatsword, the dice do that. If somebody's amped and uses the same stunt over and over, that's fine. The basest description is enough to make me happy.
Every GM should do as befits the group, or teach his group. Seems like you've found what works for you.
If I did the same, my players, after the training, would hit 3-die stunts way too often to fit the game's assumptions;).
Quote from: AsenRG;901051Man, Water Dragon is an equalizer. But still, not daring to attack? Even when using comboes?
Didn't nobody have a Perfect Defence+Attack Dice Adder combo, or something? Because then the DB dies, pure and simple.
None of our characters had any Combos. They were presented as entirely optional Major Special Attacks you might break out once in a combat, and extremely expensive in terms of XP, training time, and both motes and willpower, not "if you don't buy these you're an idiot" bread-and-butter abilities you were expected to use on every single attack. Seriously, it wasn't just possible but easy to spend every single XP you ever earned on buying ever more inclusive Combos. I consider the new rules on combining Charms to be one of the greatest improvements in 3e, along with the five motes per round in-combat recovery.
Quote from: Whitewings;901062None of our characters had any Combos. They were presented as entirely optional Major Special Attacks you might break out once in a combat, and extremely expensive in terms of XP, training time, and both motes and willpower, not "if you don't buy these you're an idiot" bread-and-butter abilities you were expected to use on every single attack. Seriously, it wasn't just possible but easy to spend every single XP you ever earned on buying ever more inclusive Combos. I consider the new rules on combining Charms to be one of the greatest improvements in 3e, along with the five motes per round in-combat recovery.
I think that the expectation of Exalted's staff was that each character was going to hyper focused into their chosen field. So having a Dawn warrior that blew the entirety of their beginning charms to getting that Perfect Defense and all the little killy widgets.
Which might be how most people played it, but we never did. And the system fucked up for it. And god forbid you got into the combo nuttiness.
Quote from: Whitewings;901062None of our characters had any Combos. They were presented as entirely optional Major Special Attacks you might break out once in a combat, and extremely expensive in terms of XP, training time, and both motes and willpower, not "if you don't buy these you're an idiot" bread-and-butter abilities you were expected to use on every single attack. Seriously, it wasn't just possible but easy to spend every single XP you ever earned on buying ever more inclusive Combos. I consider the new rules on combining Charms to be one of the greatest improvements in 3e, along with the five motes per round in-combat recovery.
IIRC, a couple of the characters did have combos but having to use them every turn was taxing.
Quote from: Nexus;901065IIRC, a couple of the characters did have combos but having to use them every turn was taxing.
It doesn't help that Chungian play is an actual thing, and the system was designed so you needed to use it.
But who seriously thought to have a DV-penalty-negator+Perfect+anti-ambush+dice-adder into the same combo? Until the first couple of characters got whacked?
It's like how they made Doomsday in the comics. "We'll just get sending it out until it's immune to whatever kills it". Hell of a design mentality.
I will say, that Godbound has been great for running Exalted so far. And without too many changes to the system needed as of yet (I'm playing an Infernal, so asked if I could take the Word Green Sun instead of Sun. That's about it). The Miracles...system really saves the whole thing from becoming too bogged down.
Quote from: Michael Gray;901078I will say, that Godbound has been great for running Exalted so far. And without too many changes to the system needed as of yet (I'm playing an Infernal, so asked if I could take the Word Green Sun instead of Sun. That's about it). The Miracles...system really saves the whole thing from becoming too bogged down.
Godbound actually replaces Exalted in terms of system. People might as well ditch the third edition and just use Godbound.
Quote from: Snowman0147;901103Godbound actually replaces Exalted in terms of system. People might as well ditch the third edition and just use Godbound.
Despite some misgivings I am increasingly tempted by this option.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;901046In general, I can't stand having to judge players to reward them, at least when it comes to stunts. I've known/know great RPers who get tongue-tied during stunts and I refuse to penalize them for not being what WW/OPP saw/sees as worthy. Their pretentiousness is staggering when it comes to stunts...or their games in general, to be honest.
I know how you feel. And, I guess the people I play with aren't creative as well as stupid because it does get difficult to come up up with dozens of variations on "I swing my sword" and "I dodge his blow" or whatever without repeating yourself given the long protracted battles Ex combats tend to be particularly and jungle a beefy tactical combat system in your head where one mistake can get your character obliterated. The sense that it felt mandatory (and by some analysis was) just added more pressure.
QuoteIt's not just stunts that I'm light-handed with. If a player can't come up with snazzy IC dialogue, I don't penalize them because "they didn't role play". Their dice can do the talking. I don't make the player of a fighter show me his skill with a greatsword, the dice do that. If somebody's amped and uses the same stunt over and over, that's fine. The basest description is enough to make me happy.
Yeah, I try to be like this as well, more carrot than stick.
Quote from: Snowman0147;901103Godbound actually replaces Exalted in terms of system. People might as well ditch the third edition and just use Godbound.
I may have no choice in the matter as I have yet to find a local Ex3 player base beyond old groups currently in other games.
Well some posts in my godbound blog can help you out with Exalted. Though right now I am trying to do a souls series version for godbound. Just check out Scrolls of Royal Divinity which is my blog dedicated solely for godbound.
Quote from: Whitewings;901062None of our characters had any Combos. They were presented as entirely optional Major Special Attacks you might break out once in a combat, and extremely expensive in terms of XP, training time, and both motes and willpower, not "if you don't buy these you're an idiot" bread-and-butter abilities you were expected to use on every single attack. Seriously, it wasn't just possible but easy to spend every single XP you ever earned on buying ever more inclusive Combos. I consider the new rules on combining Charms to be one of the greatest improvements in 3e, along with the five motes per round in-combat recovery.
Well, great, but you weren't in Nexus' group, were you:)?
Were you getting slaughtered by DBs, too:D?
Quote from: Nexus;901065IIRC, a couple of the characters did have combos but having to use them every turn was taxing.
Of course it is, but then, how many turns can a DB last;)? Seriously? Even before Perfect Attacks, that's problematic.
Quote from: Snowman0147;901103Godbound actually replaces Exalted in terms of system. People might as well ditch the third edition and just use Godbound.
They're completely different system-wise...but I'd say that for people that want the themes and powerlevel of Exalted minus the crunch, that's not a bad option:).
For people that want some more specific things, Ex3 is doing a good job. It's also doing a good job for my players and for my GM, but that's because it turned out the core players had an easier time learning the new Charms than what makes sense for an improvised miracle;).
Of course, that's what happens when you've played Exalted for years.
I played Exalted for years and the latest trainwreck is a needless chore of crap.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;901537I played Exalted for years and the latest trainwreck is a needless chore of crap.
So if I have 1e and 2e, which one is the 3e
closest to?
Quote from: Crüesader;901539So if I have 1e and 2e, which one is the 3e closest to?
In the style of presenting the setting, definitely 1e - gods are powers to be accounted for, and at least in the case of Solars, you are expected to act like an S&S hero and deal with challenges both big and small, and doing that personally. A part of the campaign would be Solars wandering, like S&S heroes and the heroes of myths and legends, and this is kinda expected and supported by the text, though that was equally true in 2e as well.
If you're asking about the rules, I have a nagging suspicion that it's a mixed bag, but I haven't read 1e in that much detail yet, since I only need it for the fluff.
Quote from: AsenRG;901542In the style of presenting the setting, definitely 1e - gods are powers to be accounted for, and at least in the case of Solars, you are expected to act like an S&S hero and deal with challenges both big and small, and doing that personally. A part of the campaign would be Solars wandering, like S&S heroes and the heroes of myths and legends, and this is kinda expected and supported by the text, though that was equally true in 2e as well.
If you're asking about the rules, I have a nagging suspicion that it's a mixed bag, but I haven't read 1e in that much detail yet, since I only need it for the fluff.
Thanks. Any word on how far away the Alchemicals is?
Quote from: Crüesader;901548Thanks. Any word on how far away the Alchemicals is?
No info that I am aware of, but then the most inside info I get is when I get a backer's update:D!
What I know is that the Miracles of the Solar Exalted dropped in my mailbox, and that the Dragon-Blooded and the Realm books are into their second draft. How long from there to being released, we can only guess, and my guess is at least a month, though I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong;).
Quote from: Crüesader;901539So if I have 1e and 2e, which one is the 3e closest to?
2.5 with it's needless Charm glut and evident egocentric love of itself.
Quote from: Crüesader;901548Thanks. Any word on how far away the Alchemicals is?
If Alchemicals makes it out before the end of this decade, I will eat my hat.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;901562If Alchemicals makes it out before the end of this decade, I will eat my hat.
If that hat's a Fedora, I'll salt it for you. If it's a driving cap, stetson, or bowler? Just let me loan you my Miller Lite trucker cap.
What's up with the fedora hate?
Quote from: Nexus;901593What's up with the fedora hate?
They're great hats for a suit that matches it. The majority of people who wear fedoras couldn't afford a suit if they saved for a year.
Quote from: Nexus;901593What's up with the fedora hate?
Wearing fedora / trilby suggests you're an euphoric hipster, too enlightened to care about mundane stuff like common folk. Virginity and low social skills implied.
It's like an uniform for modern stupid.
(http://www.laughandlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/35.png)
Quote from: JesterRaiin;901608Wearing fedora / trilby suggests you're an euphoric hipster, too enlightened to care about mundane stuff like common folk. Virginity and low social skills implied.
It's like an uniform for modern stupid.
The worst part is, they're never wearing a good quality one. It's always some $10 shelf fedora from Lidz or some other mall store. Bad materials, bad fit, and bad shape.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;9015622.5 with it's needless Charm glut and evident egocentric love of itself.
That's just a low blow. Got it, you don't like 3e, but comparing it with the most boring version of Exalted to date is too much;).
QuoteIf Alchemicals makes it out before the end of this decade, I will eat my hat.
I'll make sure to ask the developers to bring it before 2020, and video or it didn't happen:D!
Quote from: Crüesader;901589If that hat's a Fedora, I'll salt it for you. If it's a driving cap, stetson, or bowler? Just let me loan you my Miller Lite trucker cap.
Ivy cap. And it's never Miller time.
Quote from: AsenRG;901644That's just a low blow. !
Doesn't mean it's not accurate. I've looked over the charm list, that's just NUTS. 1e never had that many in the core book that I remember!
Quote from: Crüesader;901598They're great hats for a suit that matches it. The majority of people who wear fedoras couldn't afford a suit if they saved for a year.
I can respecr strong opinions on fashion.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901653Doesn't mean it's not accurate. I've looked over the charm list, that's just NUTS. 1e never had that many in the core book that I remember!
No kidding. There's 700+ IIRC and there's probably going to comparable lists in the other hard backs. More annoying is how so many of the boil down to fancy dice tricks (some that interact in other rolls, trigger re rolls, etc.).
Quote from: Nexus;901663No kidding. There's 700+ IIRC and there's probably going to comparable lists in the other hard backs. More annoying is how so many of the boil down to fancy dice tricks (some that interact in other rolls, trigger re rolls, etc.).
No offense, Nexus, I don't actually care what they do, what I care is the sheer amount of them. And as GM, as long as I don't want to handwave the entire system away, I have to know ALL of them??? And how they interact with each other?
I stand by my statement: Exalted actively hates the GM.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901665No offense, Nexus, I don't actually care what they do, what I care is the sheer amount of them. And as GM, as long as I don't want to handwave the entire system away, I have to know ALL of them??? And how they interact with each other?
I stand by my statement: Exalted actively hates the GM.
Huh? I was agreeing with you that there are too many of them. The fact they're also really fiddly just makes aggravates that issue. It was a massive pain in the ass when I tried running test combats so I can't imagine running a full game would be much better. I don't mind crunchy games but Ex3 feels llike complexity for complexity's sake.
Quote from: Nexus;901669Huh? I was agreeing with you that there are too many of them. The fact they're also really fiddly just makes aggravates that issue. It was a massive pain in the ass when I tried running test combats so I can't imagine running a full game would be much better. I don't mind crunchy games but Ex3 feels llike complexity for complexity's sake.
Sorry, I meant, to curtail some rebuttal (from AsenRG) about how most of them don't actually matter because that they're rerolls or some such. All that matters is that they have about 650 more than the 1e core book (A bit hyperbolic, but there are at least 5x more.)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901671Sorry, I meant, to curtail some rebuttal (from AsenRG) about how most of them don't actually matter because that they're rerolls or some such. All that matters is that they have about 650 more than the 1e core book (A bit hyperbolic, but there are at least 5x more.)
I'm not a fan of exception based design but I prefer that the number of exceptions be kept lean and functional when its employed.
Speaking of Charms, the pdf of Charms that certain level backers were able to commission has been released. Some folks are a little put out that they're not getting a copy for backing the KS like they thought. But shows they know their audience (at least the one that decided to focus on in this edition). They want even more of them and are willing to buy for them.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901653Doesn't mean it's not accurate. I've looked over the charm list, that's just NUTS. 1e never had that many in the core book that I remember!
Thank you, master of the obvious! I'm sure somebody might have been thinking they had equal amounts of crunch, despite the Ex1 corebook having about half the pagecount of the Ex3. Good you were here to disprove that erroneous opinion:D!
In other words, they couldn't have put as many even if they were actively trying! Exalted 1 is 351 pages. The charms and sorcery in Exalted 3 are over 250 pages, and if we include the description of the core system and sub-systems, it's 364 pages.
Of course there would be more system material in it, when the system parts of one corebook are longer than the entirety of the other corebook!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901671Sorry, I meant, to curtail some rebuttal (from AsenRG) about how most of them don't actually matter because that they're rerolls or some such. All that matters is that they have about 650 more than the 1e core book (A bit hyperbolic, but there are at least 5x more.)
You obviously can't predict what I'd say, CB. Better not to try:).
Also, the charms don't matter to the GM, unless the GM wants them to matter:p. Unless you're trying to go insane, the NPCs should be able to do whatever you want them to do; that was true in 2e, and it's just as true in 3e, IME.
Quote from: Nexus;901674I'm not a fan of exception based design but I prefer that the number of exceptions be kept lean and functional when its employed.
Is that a way to say, Exalted has only been more and more disappointing for you with every book they published;)?
Quote from: AsenRG;901702Is that a way to say, Exalted has only been more and more disappointing for you with every book they published;)?
Hope springs eternal. Or maybe there's just no sucker like an all day sucker but considering that the "Throw more mechanics at it!" approached didn't work out so well with 2nd or 2.5 there were allot of folks hoping that they'd dial it back for this edition or at least stay the same not fucking double down. But it was the "Ink Monkeys" largely in charge so, no, it wasn't a huge surprise just a disappointment. (YMMV and all that).
Quote from: Nexus;901705Hope springs eternal. Or maybe there's just no sucker like an all day sucker but considering that the "Throw more mechanics at it!" approached didn't work out so well with 2nd or 2.5 there were allot of folks hoping that they'd dial it back for this edition or at least stay the same not fucking double down. But it was the "Ink Monkeys" largely in charge so, no, it wasn't a huge surprise just a disappointment. (YMMV and all that).
Honestly, what I'd recommend you in this case would be to play Burn Legend:p. Yes, it doesn't have much social mechanics, but do you even need them?
And, of course, Godbound should be able to do what you wanted Ex3 to do, or a host of other games;).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901671Sorry, I meant, to curtail some rebuttal (from AsenRG) about how most of them don't actually matter because that they're rerolls or some such. All that matters is that they have about 650 more than the 1e core book (A bit hyperbolic, but there are at least 5x more.)
Closer to 3x. I just counted, the 1e book has 220 charms. Reudce that a bit if you don't count Snake Style, 'cuz back in 1e Snake Style was the entirety of the "Martial Arts" section for Solars.
And really? As excessive as I think 3e's charm section is? 1e's is nearly anemic.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901671Sorry, I meant, to curtail some rebuttal (from AsenRG) about how most of them don't actually matter because that they're rerolls or some such. All that matters is that they have about 650 more than the 1e core book (A bit hyperbolic, but there are at least 5x more.)
1e was about at my limit of Exception powers I wanted to juggle.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901665No offense, Nexus, I don't actually care what they do, what I care is the sheer amount of them. And as GM, as long as I don't want to handwave the entire system away, I have to know ALL of them??? And how they interact with each other?
I stand by my statement: Exalted actively hates the GM.
Fantasy HERO: For those who liked Exalted, but want less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.
JG
Quote from: Nexus;9017601e was about at my limit of Exception powers I wanted to juggle.
If I had to juggle the same exception-based powers as a GM, even 1e would be too much. Exalted just has too many different trees that don't follow a common model, unlike other games.
Quote from: James Gillen;901808Fantasy HERO: For those who liked Exalted, but want less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.
JG
Surely you meant to say "FASERIP" or "ORE";)?
Quote from: James Gillen;901808Fantasy HERO: For those who liked Exalted, but want less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.
JG
GURPS too, for that matter.
Quote from: James Gillen;901808Fantasy HERO: For those who liked Exalted, but want less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.
And of course, Godbound.
Quote from: James Gillen;901808Fantasy HERO: For those who liked Exalted, but want less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.
JG
I suspect you're being a little tongue in cheek but its a viable option. You get the cinematic flavor, reasonable levels of crunch and a combat system that allows for tactical combat with options with a, IMO, better system that allows for highly customized characters with superhuman abilities.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;901832GURPS too, for that matter.
There's at least one Exalted: The Dragonblooded game I know of run using GURPS.
Quote from: The Butcher;901835And of course, Godbound.
Its practically made for it.
Quote from: James Gillen;901808Fantasy HERO: For those who liked Exalted, but want less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.
JG
As someone who has used M&M 3e for it, and has played 4th and 5th a bit, yes. Pretty much. Broke out the 1e corebook and did it that way.
Quote from: AsenRG;901818Surely you meant to say "FASERIP" or "ORE";)?
Nope. After reading a friends PDF copy of this, HERO is actually LIGHTER than E3 is.
Quote from: Nexus;901881I suspect you're being a little tongue in cheek but its a viable option. You get the cinematic flavor, reasonable levels of crunch and a combat system that allows for tactical combat with options with a, IMO, better system that allows for highly customized characters with superhuman abilities.
And to you can make it mechanically 'better' represented super-fantasy heroes with too!
Quote from: Nexus;901881Its practically made for it.
I'll check out Godbound when it's done.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901904As someone who has used M&M 3e for it, and has played 4th and 5th a bit, yes. Pretty much. Broke out the 1e corebook and did it that way.
There's also the
Warriors & Warlocks book for the M&M 2 rules system if you haven't checked that out yet.
QuoteNope. After reading a friends PDF copy of this, HERO is actually LIGHTER than E3 is.
My point exactly.
JG
[Insert mandatory Hero fan rant about the over stated complexity of Hero System here]
Quote from: James Gillen;901926There's also the Warriors & Warlocks book for the M&M 2 rules system if you haven't checked that out yet.
Own it. And recently bought another copy of it when the old one got literally chewed up.
Quote from: James Gillen;901926My point exactly.
JG
I just find it sad. I'm one of those weird gamer types who prefers his system focused for the setting it wants to present. The generic aspect of GURPS for examples, turns me off because there's no implied setting in the core book. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not ragging on GURPs, just sayin' it's not my bag of tea.
Quote from: Nexus;901934[Insert mandatory Hero fan rant about the over stated complexity of Hero System here]
To be fair to those people who claim it is complex, IT IS when you first design a character. There's so many ways to build things, so many stats, and when you throw in something like fractions into the process, things can get a little wacky.
But the complexity ENDS the moment you're done, unless you're adding more things, but that's more of a sporadic, experience expenditure. So HERO front-loads its complexity, and then let's you smooth sail off when in play.
Thing is, that front end can be a bit daunting to be completely honest.
Quote from: AsenRG;901702Thank you, master of the obvious! I'm sure somebody might have been thinking they had equal amounts of crunch, despite the Ex1 corebook having about half the pagecount of the Ex3. Good you were here to disprove that erroneous opinion:D!
In other words, they couldn't have put as many even if they were actively trying! Exalted 1 is 351 pages. The charms and sorcery in Exalted 3 are over 250 pages, and if we include the description of the core system and sub-systems, it's 364 pages.
Of course there would be more system material in it, when the system parts of one corebook are longer than the entirety of the other corebook!
You obviously can't predict what I'd say, CB. Better not to try:).
Also, the charms don't matter to the GM, unless the GM wants them to matter:p. Unless you're trying to go insane, the NPCs should be able to do whatever you want them to do; that was true in 2e, and it's just as true in 3e, IME.
Is that a way to say, Exalted has only been more and more disappointing for you with every book they published;)?
Having your NPCs do what you want isn't using the system, it's handwaving it for convenience/story. Why would an Exalted GM do that? Because the base system and the Charms are fucking stupidly complicated.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901904Nope. After reading a friends PDF copy of this, HERO is actually LIGHTER than E3 is.
I'll check out Godbound when it's done.
Right, and both ORE and Faserip are lighter than Hero, while preserving similar flexibility:).
Godbound seems to be done, or I don't know what's that file I've been reading for a while;).
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;902010Having your NPCs do what you want isn't using the system, it's handwaving it for convenience/story. Why would an Exalted GM do that? Because the base system and the Charms are fucking stupidly complicated.
No, that's just houseruling/improving the rules on "Quick Characters", which are explicitly part of the third edition:p!
I got version 1.8 godbound. Kevin seems to release a update from time to time.
Quote from: AsenRG;902116Right, and both ORE and Faserip are lighter than Hero, while preserving similar flexibility:).
Godbound seems to be done, or I don't know what's that file I've been reading for a while;).
No, that's just houseruling/improving the rules on "Quick Characters", which are explicitly part of the third edition:p!
Houseruling and improving? You shouldn't NEED to do either. Exalted, however, all but forces you to, if you want to maintain a shred of sanity. It's a shit system made by shit people that caters to (largely) shit fans. It's not quick, it's needlessly clunky and defense of it smacks of a desperation to maintain the illusion of it being what people were promised.
Quote from: Snowman0147;902122I got version 1.8 godbound. Kevin seems to release a update from time to time.
1.8's been out a while. He's been working on 1.9
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;902135Houseruling and improving? You shouldn't NEED to do either. Exalted, however, all but forces you to, if you want to maintain a shred of sanity. It's a shit system made by shit people that caters to (largely) shit fans. It's not quick, it's needlessly clunky and defense of it smacks of a desperation to maintain the illusion of it being what people were promised.
"Oh just ignore the system" has been the standard defense of Exalted for years now. If I'm going to ignore then rules, the hundreds of pagers of charms and other crunch why the Hell am I paying for it? Especially now when there are two versions of largely the same fluff around?
Quote from: Jetstream;9021401.8's been out a while. He's been working on 1.9
Yeah, but until 1.9 is release 1.8 is latest your gonna get.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;902135Houseruling and improving? You shouldn't NEED to do either. Exalted, however, all but forces you to, if you want to maintain a shred of sanity.
First, this was equally necessary in Exalted 2e.
Second and more important, I need to do that for almost all systems, except the few that are already this way:).
Your arguments apply equally well to almost all systems out there. That probably includes your favourite system, too;).
It's not because I want to maintain sanity, but because it's less work - and I almost always have better things to spend my efforts when GMing, then dealing with statistics.
QuoteIt's a shit system made by shit people that caters to (largely) shit fans.
...that's so stupid, the only answer I can give you while maintaining the tone would amount to "y tu mama tambien:D!"
QuoteIt's not quick, it's needlessly clunky and defense of it smacks of a desperation to maintain the illusion of it being what people were promised.
Heh. I'm pretty sure that "quick" has never been promised (and if they did, it was a stupid promise - quick, in a system we knew would be exception-based, is a pipe dream), but whatever.
It sure is quicker than the mote attrition of 2e, I can guarantee that;).
In what concerns "needlessly clunky", I can kinda sorta agree. It's clunkier than some fans want or need. But for people like the poster that said on this board that "a game no more complicated than chess doesn't count as an RPG", it's probably too light:D!
Quote from: AsenRG;902162First, this was equally necessary in Exalted 2e.
...I want you to reread this statement. And just think on it. Then I want you to consider the sheer inanity of actually believing that because it's always been done 'that way' is a good thing. Seriously, just how much of a blind apologist are you going to be???
Wow, just wow, having to ignore more than half the game system to make it work is a GOOD THING? Really? If you're OK with bald face lying to your about the choice of Charms they make because in the end, whatever they choose will have no mechanical impact is fine, I suppose, but don't assume it's good design. Like Nexus said, if you're not going to use most of it, why bother owning it?
Christ, it's like ordering your favourite burger and just eating the lettuce it comes with. Not all of us would consider that a good value. (And don't try to be 'cute' and claim you don't like burgers or some such. It's a sad attempt at trying to deflect the point, and you know exactly what I mean. It also makes you look stupider than you seem, so please, don't abuse my respect like that.)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;902171...I want you to reread this statement. And just think on it. Then I want you to consider the sheer inanity of actually believing that because it's always been done 'that way' is a good thing.
Who says it's a good thing?
As far as I understand, the poster I was replying to was criticizing Ex3 for being worse than Ex2 and Ex1, and I pointed out that this specific objection is not valid. That's all. The "it's a good thing" is something you read into it, and it's your problem.
QuoteSeriously, just how much of a blind apologist are you going to be???
As long as there are blind haters, I'll probably enjoy pointing out the flaws in their arguments.
QuoteWow, just wow, having to ignore more than half the game system to make it work is a GOOD THING?
Half of what game system? What?
The Antagonists chapter isn't exactly "half the game system". More like 10% or less.
QuoteReally? If you're OK with bald face lying to your about the choice of Charms they make because in the end, whatever they choose will have no mechanical impact is fine, I suppose, but don't assume it's good design.
Easy here, pardner! "Lying" is also something that you managed to read into my post without it being there...
You sure you don't need glasses?
QuoteLike Nexus said, if you're not going to use most of it, why bother owning it?
Thing is, I'm using most of it. I just don't need all of it for NPCs - that's for the PCs only.
QuoteChrist, it's like ordering your favourite burger and just eating the lettuce it comes with.
No, it's like me and my friends ordering our favourite burgers, and me passing the lettuce to them - because they like more of it, and I don't want it. Which actually happens with a number of other meals - not sure about burgers, I'm not into them.
QuoteNot all of us would consider that a good value. (And don't try to be 'cute' and claim you don't like burgers or some such. It's a sad attempt at trying to deflect the point, and you know exactly what I mean. It also makes you look stupider than you seem, so please, don't abuse my respect like that.)
:D
But I really don't like burgers...also, I just replied why your analogy is erroneous, and suggested a better one;).
Quote from: AsenRG;902185Who says it's a good thing?
By saying that ignoring chunks of E2 was normal, you were implying that it was fine, because if it was done before, what you do now is OK, and anyone complaining about (as if this is the first time anyone has complained) is a bit disingenuous. It's a cheap internet debate technique. Please don't use it.
Quote from: AsenRG;902185As far as I understand, the poster I was replying to was criticizing Ex3 for being worse than Ex2 and Ex1, and I pointed out that this specific objection is not valid. That's all. The "it's a good thing" is something you read into it, and it's your problem.
Yes, it IS worse simply because it was advertised as something it turned out not to be (as in better than the last two versions), it IS worse. And not only because of the repetitive charm bloat either. There's a lot of holdovers from 2e that are simply unchecked.
Quote from: AsenRG;902185As long as there are blind haters, I'll probably enjoy pointing out the flaws in their arguments.
I think you may be projecting your blindness on others. See, someone who 'blindly hates' is a lot like the 4e haters that never tried the game and immediately parrot the 'Oh, it's like a video game' bullshit that everyone else, who also hadn't seen the game decided to call it, so that they could justify sticking with 3e. Hating something without looking at it, analyzing it or in some cases actually trying it out, or just hating because X company put it out, that is blindly hating something.
Sadly, this is NOT what happened here. Most of the complaints you are responding too, have actually tried the game system in some fashion. And found it very, very, very lacking, simply because it's just not different enough from the mess that 2e ended up being (when it turned out that apparently the errata for the core book turned out bigger than the core book. Or so it was claimed.)
Quote from: AsenRG;902185Half of what game system? What?
The Antagonists chapter isn't exactly "half the game system". More like 10% or less.
And this is where inability to understand mechanics comes to the fore. Not an insult, but it's clear that you've not actually thought it through. One part effects another, even D&D's spell system, each of which is a separate rules block that don't interact with the base system is effected by certain other factors. Like the Saving Throw, each class in most of D&D's lifetime has a unique modifier on what type of effect the spell is using. In AD&D for example, some Spells used the Charm saving throws, other went with Death. But those mechanics were tied to other things that weren't Spells either, like a Dragon's Breath, which again, each class some of which did not use magic at all got. A Gorgon's Breath, if I remember correctly (and I may not, but it's just an example) also used the Death saving throw number. I could be wrong, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about.
All these systems are interlinked, by changing one, you change others. Some might seem that big, others rewrite the entire system in it's effect.
So, by ignoring the antagonists chapter, that actually cascades into other rules, like most of the Charms, of which they actually affect said antagonists in some fashion. By ignoring one section, you are in effect ignoring another. One thing is interlinked to another, and by ignoring one section, you are, apparently without realizing it, ignoring a rather large section of the system.
Quote from: AsenRG;902185Easy here, pardner! "Lying" is also something that you managed to read into my post without it being there...
By not using the antagonists as they are, and letting your players believe that all the charms they want to use actually has meaning, but actually don't because you're not actually using what the charms will be affecting is lying. You fooling your players into believing something that's not true. How is that not a lie?
Quote from: AsenRG;902185You sure you don't need glasses?
FLAG ON PLAY! Using an ad hominem attack to try and dismiss argument. Shows weakness of own argument.
Quote from: AsenRG;902185Thing is, I'm using most of it. I just don't need all of it for NPCs - that's for the PCs only.
But the most important section of the book, even if it's the smallest, is the Antagonists. And I'm not just talking the combat monsters, I'm talking those that would want to challenge the PCs, in physical tests, like combat, but athletics counts as well, mental tests, like puzzles or general knowledge, and personality tests, like negotiations or intimidation and every thing in between is relegated by their stats, what charms (if any) they have and other factors. By ignoring that tiny, ten percent, you've just affected the entire system in a way that's apparently too subtle for you to have realized.
Uh, sticking your entire arm in water for a couple of seconds, and sticking 10% of your arm in acid. The acid, despite being less of it on you, will still do more damage in the long rung than having your entire arm into the average American bathtub water.
Quote from: AsenRG;902185No, it's like me and my friends ordering our favourite burgers, and me passing the lettuce to them - because they like more of it, and I don't want it. Which actually happens with a number of other meals - not sure about burgers, I'm not into them.
What you believe and what you're doing are two different things, evidently.
Quote from: AsenRG;902185But I really don't like burgers...also, I just replied why your analogy is erroneous, and suggested a better one;).
...Really? Really? Wow.
I'm not going to change your mind, and that's fine, but it's clear that you have no idea what the scope of the complaints are, and blindly dismiss them because your OK with the mess that you have is like dancing the mamba with nitro glycerin in each hand.
Just because you've gotten away with it unharmed, does not mean that dancing with nitro glycerin is safe for everyone to do it.
...BOOM!
Quote from: AsenRG;902162First, this was equally necessary in Exalted 2e.
Second and more important, I need to do that for almost all systems, except the few that are already this way:).
Your arguments apply equally well to almost all systems out there. That probably includes your favourite system, too;).
It's not because I want to maintain sanity, but because it's less work - and I almost always have better things to spend my efforts when GMing, then dealing with statistics.
...that's so stupid, the only answer I can give you while maintaining the tone would amount to "y tu mama tambien:D!"
Heh. I'm pretty sure that "quick" has never been promised (and if they did, it was a stupid promise - quick, in a system we knew would be exception-based, is a pipe dream), but whatever.
It sure is quicker than the mote attrition of 2e, I can guarantee that;).
In what concerns "needlessly clunky", I can kinda sorta agree. It's clunkier than some fans want or need. But for people like the poster that said on this board that "a game no more complicated than chess doesn't count as an RPG", it's probably too light:D!
No, I don't need to ignore rules in Star Wars or Cypher System games. Why? Because they work without having to fiddle-fuck with a ton of shit. Can I change things if I want to? Yes, that's an RPG thing. However, I don't NEED to in order to run a combat that won't still be going in a year...
And yes, most of the most fervent supporters of Exalted are SJW fucktards who aren't gamers and hate the hobby. The Ex3 crew is a huge group of assholes with one designer not even gaming. The game was promised to be streamlined, which is pretty much synonymous with "quicker". The ST System wasn't built from the ground up and it shows. All they did was mash years of everything into a cluster-fuck system.
Here's the most glorious rub, though: I'm not wrong about any of the points I've made. The creators ARE vitriolic assholes who lied. The majority of fans ARE SJWs shitheads. And the system IS a clunky, cludgey, counter-intuitive mess.
Oh, your little emoticons are stupid. :D And I hate you. ;)
Quote from: AsenRG;902185Half of what game system? What?
The Antagonists chapter isn't exactly "half the game system". More like 10% or less.
With all due respect, that's quite disingenous. A game system like Exalted (complex, extremely crunchy, theoretically designed to give players lots of significant choices during both character generation and combat) falls apart if you wing it up whenever you're playing the opponents. At that point you might as well wing up the players' powers.
A game's tactical depth requires either both PCs and NPCs using the same rules, or, if they're different, they have to be properly designed that way from the start so the 2 different subsystems interact correctly with each other. And if you lose that depth, then why bother with Exalted's level of complexity?
And regardless of any other factor, a corebook with over 600 exception-based powers (with much more to come in the following splatbooks) requires an initial investment which is just plain crazy. That's an objective number, not linked to any specific person's bias.
I thought Qwixalted was a good implementation of the rules. The barrier to adoption seems to be that many players prefer having a large, but manageable, number of exception-based charms.
I don't understand why this is such a big problem. I would think it would be a simple matter of houseruling that all charms have a second dimension of limitations define by the player/GM. This would give an effectively infinite number of discrete charms without having to write new subsystems for each and every imaginable superpower.
Could someone explain it to me?
Hero would be the best system for Exalted. A nice 200 page setting/campaign book and you'd be done. Wouldn't happen in a million years as Exalted and Hero fans are like oil and water, I'd bet my house they will vote on predictably opposite sides in November.
Quote from: The_Shadow;903533Hero would be the best system for Exalted. A nice 200 page setting/campaign book and you'd be done. Wouldn't happen in a million years as Exalted and Hero fans are like oil and water, I'd bet my house they will vote on predictably opposite sides in November.
I and most of our group are Hero fans that also like Exalted. Its not a total division and I am working on a conversion for our games. But I agree its unlikely to happen officially at any point. Geoff Grabowski apparently had a strong dislike for systems like Hero and GURPS and its something later developers have clung to keep the game's exception based design instead of a build your own or similar system. Its been suggested and shot down aggressively as "not being Exalted". Cynically, I think its a move for sales. If your customers can easily write up new abilities they're less reliant on the supplement treadmill. And while you can make new charms, its hit or miss and they play up the process as practically arcane, never offering solid rules or even guidelines. Supposedly the Exigent book will. That remains to be seen but it essentially has to given the nature of Exigents.
You can't even work out rough principles from the examples given. Each Ability seems to be based around a very loose design scheme (weird in such a high crunch game), and the scheme seems to vary hugely between abilities. And it doesn't help that the system as written leads directly to consequences the designers cannot accept, mainly that for the Solar Exalted, legendary accomplishments are everyday. Difficulty 5 is supposed to be nearly impossible for regular people; for a Solar with the appropriate Charms, it's easy. The Codex Gigas took an estimated 20 years for one monk to write; a Solar with Lore 5 and Flawless Brush Discipline can do the equivalent in a day. Plus time to plan it out, so maybe six months. Then a day each to produce new copies, assuming enough ink, paper and brushes are available. The impact of this on the setting can easily be enormous, but there's no way to express this in the game, either in fluff or mechanics. And if someone invents some practical method of copying books, such as a two dot Artifact that will duplicate a book when supplied with an original and the needed materials, even if the rate is low by our standards, well, look how slow the Gutenberg press was. A Bible took over a decade to copy by hand; to have one available in a matter of weeks was a wonder beyond reckoning. An Artifact that could create a book from raw materials in an hour, or even a day, would be even more revolutionary. Imagine books so cheap that every peasant household can have one or two, such as a treatise on new methods of agriculture, or advancements in animal husbandry, or even something so minor to us as Mendelian heredity. But the entire game line seems to be based on the idea that the Solars can't change things quickly and mustn't be allowed to. This might change in the current edition, but in 2e, at leave one developer stated directly that allowing easier Artifact construction for Solars would lead directly to First Age level artifice in a few years and that was entirely unacceptable.
The developers are childish jealous rules police now? The point of Exalted is that the Realm is a vast exotic playground waiting for a party of Celestial PCs to mutilate it beyond recognition with their terrible god-like power. The First Age ended BECAUSE the Solars weren't there to maintain it. If we wanted low magic campaigns where the PCs don't start Ragnarok then that's what Terrestrials, God-Blooded, Fair Folk, et al are for.
Quote from: Nexus;903534Cynically, I think its a move for sales. If your customers can easily write up new abilities they're less reliant on the supplement treadmill.
Another symptom of that is the "look but don't touch" attitude toward the setting. If you let the PCs burn down the setting and start rebuilding in their own image, every play group's setting becomes its own thing which probably will have little to do with the setting as presented in future supplements. It can also be a case of GMs/designers that are too in love with their own setting as well. Back in the days when homebrew D&D setting were the norm, I remember GMs that were so precious about their setting that they seemed more worried about the PCs breaking anything than actually running a fun game. It's not surprising that an edition of Exalted written by Exalted fanboys would be appalled at the idea of anyone messing up their beloved setting.
I think that while there are reasons these attitudes exist, sometimes they just keep going on out of habit. Back in the '80s, the idea that you needed to keep the players in line seemed to just be conventional wisdom, and largely went unexamined. Exalted is a very conservative game in a lot of ways, so maybe there is no more reason for it to follow these ideas than that they are ones the designers grew up with.
It's a shame really. My ideal Exalted campaign would play out something like the run of the Miracleman comic. It would build up to an epic battle which would be followed by the world becoming something utterly unrecognizable and strange.
I don't know where to begin. That is the exact same problem we have with metaplot but makes even less sense because the point of the game is that the PCs have god-like power to reshape the world which we are then supposed to ignore in favor of... what? What are the PCs even supposed to do if they are not supposed to do anything? Pretend they're important when they're just sitting on a couch watching TV forever?
I think the lesson we should take from this is that continuously updated settings and player choice don't mix. The same theme park versus sandbox lesson we see in practice with MMOs. Example: upcoming sandbox MMOs like Crowsfall and Camelot Unchained will run in cycles where the players get to conquer the world map before the world is reset so that other players get a chance. Something like that except in Adventure Path format is the only analogue I imagine working for tabletop. Every adventure path would be a variation on the PCs reshaping the world, which would be replaced with a new edition ever few years to keep up with the metaplot. With extra funding we'd get a choose your own adventure path.
It's even worse because Exalted (at least officially) has no metaplot. Everything in every supplement is supposed to be described the state of Creation as of Realm Year 784: 784 years after the Scarlet Empress claimed the throne.
Quote from: Whitewings;903619It's even worse because Exalted (at least officially) has no metaplot. Everything in every supplement is supposed to be described the state of Creation as of Realm Year 784: 784 years after the Scarlet Empress claimed the throne.
Once you populate a setting with NPCs that are doing what the PCs are doing to the point that you need to excise them to make room for the players, you have metaplot.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;903639Once you populate a setting with NPCs that are doing what the PCs are doing to the point that you need to excise them to make room for the players, you have metaplot.
THat's not the normal meaning of metaplot, which is "each new supplement advances the timeline and changes the setting," with the results of PC actions being either explicitly or more often implicitly ignored completely. This has only been done well once, in Shadowrun, because the changes introduced aren't things the PCs could reasonably be expected to influence significantly.
Quote from: Whitewings;903619It's even worse because Exalted (at least officially) has no metaplot. Everything in every supplement is supposed to be described the state of Creation as of Realm Year 784: 784 years after the Scarlet Empress claimed the throne.
So, metastasis then?
Quote from: Baulderstone;903693So, metastasis then?
Not entirely inapplicable...
No matter what it's called, having a game about super-powered demigods changing the world but you can't/shouldn't because the NPCs are too powerful/have already done the cool stuff, is stupid. Having to wait years to get the full picture of a static setting, is stupid. Lying about your intentions when "remaking" a beloved IP, is stupid. Treating loyal fans and customers like shit because they called you on said lies (as well as other shit), is stupid. Doubling-down on an already overly-complicated system, is stupid. Pandering to shrill morons about how sexy a female character is, is stupid.
Added up? Rich and Friends, are stupid.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;903703Having to wait years to get the full picture of a static setting, is stupid.
This is probably the main thing that killed me on the game back during first edition. The setting seemed pretty cool, but having to wait a full year just to get the Dragon Blooded, who were completely central to the setting, I just lost interest. Realizing that another central faction of the setting would drop out of the aether every year for the next x years, I just gave my books to a curious friend.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;903703No matter what it's called, having a game about super-powered demigods changing the world but you can't/shouldn't because the NPCs are too powerful/have already done the cool stuff, is stupid. Having to wait years to get the full picture of a static setting, is stupid. Lying about your intentions when "remaking" a beloved IP, is stupid. Treating loyal fans and customers like shit because they called you on said lies (as well as other shit), is stupid. Doubling-down on an already overly-complicated system, is stupid. Pandering to shrill morons about how sexy a female character is, is stupid.
Added up? Rich and Friends, are stupid.
This is why I switch to Godbound. Which by the way I am seeking new players for a Skype campaign. Anyone want to play?
Quote from: Snowman0147;903718This is why I switch to Godbound. Which by the way I am seeking new players for a Skype campaign. Anyone want to play?
What's the schedule? I may be able to.
I'm happy that
Godbound and (hopefully)
Gods of the Fall will leech away the good people from Ex3. I feel pretty bad for those cool cats who believed it would be as advertised and were handed poop.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;903723What's the schedule? I may be able to.
I'm happy that Godbound and (hopefully) Gods of the Fall will leech away the good people from Ex3. I feel pretty bad for those cool cats who believed it would be as advertised and were handed poop.
Heh, it's not even that it's necessarily poop. Perfectly playable game. But Godbound is just so much
BETTER it's not even funny.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;903723What's the schedule? I may be able to.
I'm happy that Godbound and (hopefully) Gods of the Fall will leech away the good people from Ex3. I feel pretty bad for those cool cats who believed it would be as advertised and were handed poop.
Sunday at 8pm est.
Quote from: Michael Gray;903726Heh, it's not even that it's necessarily poop. Perfectly playable game. But Godbound is just so much BETTER it's not even funny.
Speaking of which I made house rule post for socket items that uses hearth stones. Here is a link (http://scollsofroyaldivinity.blogspot.com/2016/06/socket-artifacts.html).
Quote from: Snowman0147;903765Sunday at 8pm est.
Sadly, I go to bed around then (0330 wake-up and all!), but thank you!
No problem.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;903798Sadly, I go to bed around then (0330 wake-up and all!), but thank you!
Well, some of us will be awake. :D
Quote from: Baulderstone;903584Another symptom of that is the "look but don't touch" attitude toward the setting.
That attitude can also be seen in the setting development with the Powers that Be being made more monolethic and physically powerful and the PCs power levels lowered in the name "ensuring interaction with the setting instead of running roughshod over it" (IOW: making large scale changes). Even groups like THe Guild, which practically has to be given Plot Armor to explain why its managed to keep all Exalts out of power structures and interferring or co-opting it even a local level would be the stuff oa major campaign arc, even a campaign, for Solar Exalted.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;903639Once you populate a setting with NPCs that are doing what the PCs are doing to the point that you need to excise them to make room for the players, you have metaplot.
See Also: Aberrant
Quote from: Warboss Squee;903838Well, some of us will be awake. :D
And usually working. Of course, I'm on nights this week...
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;903880And usually working. Of course, I'm on nights this week...
True enough.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;903639Once you populate a setting with NPCs that are doing what the PCs are doing to the point that you need to excise them to make room for the players, you have metaplot.
That's not metaplot. Metaplot is when the NPC's move the timeline of the game along and the PCs have no input on what happens. Palladium's Rifts, most of the White Wold WoD games, Aberrant as was mentioned, those have very big metaplots. There's a train that's going to a destination, and there's no way to stop it, so the PCs may as well strap in for the ride.
What's you're describing is more of a limited ability to explore. You can play in the sand box and do whatever you want, but if you go to certain places, you'll get smushed. It won't stop you from going there, but explore at your own risk. Unfortunately, the sand box is very, very small compared to the sections cordoned off.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;903923That's not metaplot. Metaplot is when the NPC's move the timeline of the game along and the PCs have no input on what happens. Palladium's Rifts, most of the White Wold WoD games, Aberrant as was mentioned, those have very big metaplots. There's a train that's going to a destination, and there's no way to stop it, so the PCs may as well strap in for the ride.
What's you're describing is more of a limited ability to explore. You can play in the sand box and do whatever you want, but if you go to certain places, you'll get smushed. It won't stop you from going there, but explore at your own risk. Unfortunately, the sand box is very, very small compared to the sections cordoned off.
And to make things worse, many of the "get smushed here" zones are aggressively unmarked. Not only is there no way to know if you're in one, a lot of them seem to be actively desirable places to go.
I just never got why people take Exalted so terribly seriously. It's got some cool ideas but it's like a mashup between shonen anime and wuxia movies with a little Greek myth thrown in. I like crazy shonen anime like One Piece or silly over the top wuxia like Zu:warriors From the Magic Mountain as much as the next guy but it's pretty silly stuff. People act like the game is some great, important vehicle for Social Change or something. They act like it's somehow basically different from and more important than other fantasy RPGs rather than just being more over the top than most. It's absurd how pretentious people are about it. It's just a more over the top, gonzo version of D&D. Why do people act like it's this great, portentous thing?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;903923What's you're describing is more of a limited ability to explore. You can play in the sand box and do whatever you want, but if you go to certain places, you'll get smushed. It won't stop you from going there, but explore at your own risk. Unfortunately, the sand box is very, very small compared to the sections cordoned off.
Quite honestly, I enjoyed the setting when the lore was bastardized and pillaged. Some things we did during our Locust Crusade, or discussed doing:
-Disregard Solars/Abyssals/Infernals completely
-Use only the Deathlords from the book, none others exist
-ST discretion for moving up in Essence Level
-Completely remove things from an area
-Lock Yu-Shan away from Creation
We didn't do all of these, but these were all possibilities for the game.
Quote from: yosemitemike;903972I just never got why people take Exalted so terribly seriously.... It's absurd how pretentious people are about it. It's just a more over the top, gonzo version of D&D. Why do people act like it's this great, portentous thing?
Yeah, it's supposed to be kind of a goofy thing. Honestly, if you don't treat the limiting lore like it's scripture-gospel, throw it out if you want- you got yourself a pretty decent game. I look at it like superhero comics. Sometimes I'm in the mood for Superman, sometimes I'm in the mood for Batman. It feels good to cut loose and blow up a mountain in a fistfight, but sometimes you just want to brawl with some bandits in the mud.
Quote from: yosemitemike;903972I just never got why people take Exalted so terribly seriously. It's got some cool ideas but it's like a mashup between shonen anime and wuxia movies with a little Greek myth thrown in. I like crazy shonen anime like One Piece or silly over the top wuxia like Zu:warriors From the Magic Mountain as much as the next guy but it's pretty silly stuff. People act like the game is some great, important vehicle for Social Change or something. They act like it's somehow basically different from and more important than other fantasy RPGs rather than just being more over the top than most. It's absurd how pretentious people are about it. It's just a more over the top, gonzo version of D&D. Why do people act like it's this great, portentous thing?
Being pretentious "Serious Business" gaming has been Storyteller's brand practically since the beginning and inevitably comes to color any game line that continues for very long. Exalted and its fandom actually did feel allot more freewheeling and open initially. Discussions were about homebrew setting elements and variant Creations and some pretty gonzo even over the top stuff. Especially on rpg.net. Hell, that style even came to be called "Rpg.net Exalted".
Then partially due to the system being unable to support it (originating in Urban Horror) a more "serious" take was pushed, blaming 2ed failings in part of on trying to cater to "rpg.net Exalted" which was obviously not what the game was meant to be. And allot of the fanbase hopped on board. Discussions became more about the NPCs, setting elements and proving how well you'd internalized the lore, more like talking about a story or novel than a game, another manifestation of that "Look but don't touch" mentality mentioned earlier.
Another example of the game wanting to turn the amp up to 11 when the amp only goes up to 8.
JG
The game struck a chord when it was first released, and struck it well. Over the years, however, it hasn't grown forward, instead taking countless steps backward. I feel the idea and potential of Exalted drives people more than the actual game.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;904071The game struck a chord when it was first released, and struck it well. Over the years, however, it hasn't grown forward, instead taking countless steps backward. I feel the idea and potential of Exalted drives people more than the actual game.
That's the thing with most of White Wolf's stuff. The games themselves are rather pretentious crap, with a barely there and barely functional system/engine, but the writing evoked something in people, and those people clung to said evocations to the point of admittedly silliness.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;904082That's the thing with most of White Wolf's stuff. The games themselves are rather pretentious crap, with a barely there and barely functional system/engine, but the writing evoked something in people, and those people clung to said evocations to the point of admittedly silliness.
Those damn corebooks. There's something about them that just has a hook. Really, the basic idea behind most ST/WW/OP games aren't bad at all and those books really sell them. But then more supplement inevitably follow and the "serious artistic merit" and increasingly bloated setting and explanation of how to play the game "right" keep getting shoveled on until that great kernel of an idea is suffocated under pretentious wankery.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;904071The game struck a chord when it was first released, and struck it well. Over the years, however, it hasn't grown forward, instead taking countless steps backward. I feel the idea and potential of Exalted drives people more than the actual game.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;904082That's the thing with most of White Wolf's stuff. The games themselves are rather pretentious crap, with a barely there and barely functional system/engine, but the writing evoked something in people, and those people clung to said evocations to the point of admittedly silliness.
Going all the way back,
Vampire: the Masquerade 1st Edition, plus
Chicago by Night 1st Edition, while having some degree of mechanical wonkiness, was a really great game. Unfortunately, there are many, many more books in the line.
The new Exalted edition might have been a chance to pare the game back down. I knew that wasn't the case when I heard there were actually multiple new types of Exalted added without enough detail to actually use them. I'm not a game developer, but if I have a book over three inches thick, and there are setting elements that the system still can't support, maybe they shouldn't be in the game at all.
Quote from: Luca;902293With all due respect, that's quite disingenous. A game system like Exalted (complex, extremely crunchy, theoretically designed to give players lots of significant choices during both character generation and combat) falls apart if you wing it up whenever you're playing the opponents.
No, it doesn't, as evidenced by me having devoted about half my Refereeing time to systems like this. They work ut fine.
QuoteAt that point you might as well wing up the players' powers.
That's for when we play a lighter system, thank you. This is the difference between the two, not my GMing.
Quotegame's tactical depth requires either both PCs and NPCs using the same rules, or, if they're different, they have to be properly designed that way from the start so the 2 different subsystems interact correctly with each other.
Untrue.
QuoteAnd if you lose that depth, then why bother with Exalted's level of complexity?
Because the players like having Charms, of course. And because gaining, losing and spending Initiative maps well to in-game events I don't need to think how to explain what's going on. This, in turn, frees my "processing power" to consider other things a GM needs to consider.
QuoteAnd regardless of any other factor, a corebook with over 600 exception-based powers (with much more to come in the following splatbooks) requires an initial investment which is just plain crazy. That's an objective number, not linked to any specific person's bias.
"Over 600" is objective. "Crazy" is your bias speaking.
It just took me longer to read it, is all.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;902207No, I don't need to ignore rules in Star Wars or Cypher System games. Why? Because they work without having to fiddle-fuck with a ton of shit.
Because (we don't know which Star Wars you mean, but if it's Saga, I'm going to laugh really hard) Cypher barely has any rules past "GM fiats it".
QuoteCan I change things if I want to? Yes, that's an RPG thing. However, I don't NEED to in order to run a combat that won't still be going in a year...
Neither do I. Exalted 3 combats are actually a bit on the fast side, lately.
QuoteAnd yes, most of the most fervent supporters of Exalted are SJW fucktards who aren't gamers and hate the hobby.
Citation needed.
QuoteThe Ex3 crew is a huge group of assholes with one designer not even gaming.
That's your opinion. The guy who's not gaming kinda surprised me, too, but I'm not in his shoes - maybe he's got reasons.
QuoteThe game was promised to be streamlined, which is pretty much synonymous with "quicker".
No. Streamlined means it's more logical, following the same principles everywhere. It does that, compared to the previous edition. Quicker? Well, it is also quicker compared to Exalted 2 with its paranoia combat. It's just slower than other systems, which is where the disconnect comes from.
QuoteThe ST System wasn't built from the ground up and it shows. All they did was mash years of everything into a cluster-fuck system.
Shrug. You can say the same about a few popular systems as well.
QuoteHere's the most glorious rub, though: I'm not wrong about any of the points I've made.
I'm sure you want to believe that;).
QuoteOh, your little emoticons are stupid. :D And I hate you. ;)
Go fuck yourself, then:D!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;902202By saying that ignoring chunks of E2 was normal, you were implying that it was fine, because if it was done before, what you do now is OK, and anyone complaining about (as if this is the first time anyone has complained) is a bit disingenuous. It's a cheap internet debate technique. Please don't use it.
...there were special systems developed by the fans to streamline the running of NPCs which amounted to, more or less, what I'm doing. Yes, what I'm doing now is OK. Been doing it in the last decade, across many systems (odds are, across more systems than you've played).
That much you got right;).
People are free to complain, though. I'm just pointing out that "it's only a slight improvement and I'd streamline it more - in fact, my default approach is to streamline it more".
Now, if they say there's no improvement? Yeah, they are kinda disingenuous.
QuoteYes, it IS worse simply because it was advertised as something it turned out not to be (as in better than the last two versions), it IS worse.
The word you need is not "worse". It's "more disappointing to Chris Brady".
QuoteAnd not only because of the repetitive charm bloat either. There's a lot of holdovers from 2e that are simply unchecked.
There are, but some of them are stuff the designers like.
That there are holdovers doesn't mean it's not an improvement. It means you wanted it to be better.
QuoteI think you may be projecting your blindness on others.
You're wrong.
QuoteSee, someone who 'blindly hates' is a lot like the 4e haters that never tried the game and immediately parrot the 'Oh, it's like a video game' bullshit that everyone else, who also hadn't seen the game decided to call it, so that they could justify sticking with 3e. Hating something without looking at it, analyzing it or in some cases actually trying it out, or just hating because X company put it out, that is blindly hating something.
That much, we agree on.
Remind me, how many of the posters in this thread own Ex3? I asked for a show of hands, I think (can't be bothered to look for the post). For some reason, there weren't lots of hands...
QuoteSadly, this is NOT what happened here. Most of the complaints you are responding too, have actually tried the game system in some fashion. And found it very, very, very lacking, simply because it's just not different enough from the mess that 2e ended up being (when it turned out that apparently the errata for the core book turned out bigger than the core book. Or so it was claimed.)
"Not different enough"=/=not improved". "Enough" is subjective.
And I've changed the parts that I don't like, so my "enough" still requires more. It's just closer to the current product.
QuoteAnd this is where inability to understand mechanics comes to the fore. Not an insult, but it's clear that you've not actually thought it through.
YOU are accusing ME in "inability to understand mechanics":D?
QuoteOne part effects another, even D&D's spell system, each of which is a separate rules block that don't interact with the base system is effected by certain other factors. Like the Saving Throw, each class in most of D&D's lifetime has a unique modifier on what type of effect the spell is using. In AD&D for example, some Spells used the Charm saving throws, other went with Death. But those mechanics were tied to other things that weren't Spells either, like a Dragon's Breath, which again, each class some of which did not use magic at all got. A Gorgon's Breath, if I remember correctly (and I may not, but it's just an example) also used the Death saving throw number. I could be wrong, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about.
All these systems are interlinked, by changing one, you change others. Some might seem that big, others rewrite the entire system in it's effect.
True, it does.
The way you derive those numbers, however, has no bearing on the system - only
the number itself matters.
QuoteSo, by ignoring the antagonists chapter, that actually cascades into other rules, like most of the Charms, of which they actually affect said antagonists in some fashion. By ignoring one section, you are in effect ignoring another. One thing is interlinked to another, and by ignoring one section, you are, apparently without realizing it, ignoring a rather large section of the system.
Once again, no I'm not. Or if anything, my NPCs just make the game harder - which is always fine with me.
QuoteBy not using the antagonists as they are, and letting your players believe that all the charms they want to use actually has meaning,
They do - without said charms, the NPCs would trample them.
You don't assume that I'd change the NPCs according to what the players' numbers are, do you?
Quotebut actually don't because you're not actually using what the charms will be affecting is lying.
As pointed before, that's BS. Whether you decide that an NPC has Dex 4 Melee 4 and a specialty, or just decide he's rolling 12 dice when the weapon is accounted for, doesn't matter.
QuoteYou fooling your players into believing something that's not true. How is that not a lie?
None of my players is stupid enough to believe I'd use stock NPCs. They know me better than that.
QuoteFLAG ON PLAY! Using an ad hominem attack to try and dismiss argument. Shows weakness of own argument.
Bitch, please. After calling me blind and a liar, you don't get to use the "ad hominem" card:D!
QuoteBut the most important section of the book, even if it's the smallest, is the Antagonists. And I'm not just talking the combat monsters, I'm talking those that would want to challenge the PCs, in physical tests, like combat, but athletics counts as well, mental tests, like puzzles or general knowledge, and personality tests, like negotiations or intimidation and every thing in between is relegated by their stats, what charms (if any) they have and other factors. By ignoring that tiny, ten percent, you've just affected the entire system in a way that's apparently too subtle for you to have realized.
That's only true if you change the possible range of results.
QuoteUh, sticking your entire arm in water for a couple of seconds, and sticking 10% of your arm in acid. The acid, despite being less of it on you, will still do more damage in the long rung than having your entire arm into the average American bathtub water.
Stupid comparison is still stupid.
QuoteWhat you believe and what you're doing are two different things, evidently.
No.
Quote...Really? Really? Wow.
Really.
QuoteI'm not going to change your mind, and that's fine, but it's clear that you have no idea what the scope of the complaints are, and blindly dismiss them because your OK with the mess that you have is like dancing the mamba with nitro glycerin in each hand.
Just because you've gotten away with it unharmed, does not mean that dancing with nitro glycerin is safe for everyone to do it.
Funny comparison, but still has nothing to do with the rest of it.
Quote...BOOM!
Dramatic.
Exaggerating.
Doesn't prove your point.
[QUOTE="yosemitemike;903972]I just never got why people take Exalted so terribly seriously. It's got some cool ideas but it's like a mashup between shonen anime and wuxia movies with a little Greek myth thrown in.[/QUOTE]
It's got a nice setting;).
Quote from: AsenRG;904933snip
Looks like AsenRG is the only guy who really gets Exalted. Someone give the guy a gold medal, because he's apparently the only guy playing it right and the rest of us are wrong.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;904934Looks like AsenRG is the only guy who really gets Exalted. Someone give the guy a gold medal, because he's apparently the only guy playing it right and the rest of us are wrong.
Its functional if you ignore the jacked up rules and setting inconsistencies or patch them with spit and duct tape. But that can be said of, well, anything. I think it was called earlier. People are mostly in love with the idea of Exalted and the notion its something somehow more "sophisticated" than other mere rpgs. Enough so that they'll put up with some all sort of crap that would put them off other games. Like the guy with a smoking hot but high maintenance, maybe slightly deranged girlfriend.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;904934Looks like AsenRG is the only guy who really gets Exalted. Someone give the guy a gold medal, because he's apparently the only guy playing it right and the rest of us are wrong.
I'm not particularly fussed. If he and his group are having fun, hey, good for them.
For me, the original Exalted concept (1e core) was intriguing, and the first iteration of the rules, while a far cry from "ideal", was at least salvageable. But with the supplement treadmill the original concept was progressively scrapped and the system is unworkable at this point.
Neither me nor any of the players I know would even think about approaching a monster rule book with over 600 exception-based powers in it. We just don't have that kind of time anymore, that's all. And now with far better (for our purposes) alternatives out there (i.e. Godbound) it would make no sense.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;904934Looks like AsenRG is the only guy who really gets Exalted. Someone give the guy a gold medal, because he's apparently the only guy playing it right and the rest of us are wrong.
Thanks for the medal:).
Quote from: Nexus;904936Its functional if you ignore the jacked up rules and setting inconsistencies or patch them with spit and duct tape.
Or if you find a way to use them to your advantage, yes.
QuoteBut that can be said of, well, anything.
True. In some cases, it wouldn't actually be true, but it sure can;).
QuoteI think it was called earlier. People are mostly in love with the idea of Exalted and the notion its something somehow more "sophisticated" than other mere rpgs.
...no. It's a more fun setting than many other RPGs, bus "sophistication" sounds too pretentious - and knowing you, that's on purpose.
QuoteEnough so that they'll put up with some all sort of crap that would put them off other games. Like the guy with a smoking hot but high maintenance, maybe slightly deranged girlfriend.
It might amuse you to know that I'm now going to introduce such a couple as (likely) antagonists;).
Quote from: Luca;904941I'm not particularly fussed. If he and his group are having fun, hey, good for them.
Thanks. I always figured that this should be the default assumption for all games...
Obviously I was wrong.
QuoteFor me, the original Exalted concept (1e core) was intriguing, and the first iteration of the rules, while a far cry from "ideal", was at least salvageable. But with the supplement treadmill the original concept was progressively scrapped and the system is unworkable at this point.
Neither me nor any of the players I know would even think about approaching a monster rule book with over 600 exception-based powers in it. We just don't have that kind of time anymore, that's all. And now with far better (for our purposes) alternatives out there (i.e. Godbound) it would make no sense.
I'm a backer of Godbound. My players just voted unanimously that if they're to use an exception-based system, it might as well have more defined and specific powers;). Plus they like occasionally throwing a big dicepool.
Since I'd found a way to run Exalted 3 already, I didn't veto that, and there we are.
So at this point, all I can say is "have fun with Godbound":D!
Quote from: Warboss Squee;904934Looks like AsenRG is the only guy who really gets Exalted. Someone give the guy a gold medal, because he's apparently the only guy playing it right and the rest of us are wrong.
At this point, I think he's a God. Not only is he actually USING the system, he's the ONLY person who hasn't houseruled or handwaved away any of the mechanics and made it WORK. That is an impossible feat worthy of a Gaming God, there's no other way to explain how he does it.
^I ran it RAW without being any sort of gaming god. It can be done. It was just way more trouble than it was worth. The system was a constant obstacle. It did nothing but trip people and get in the way.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;904934Looks like AsenRG is the only guy who really gets Exalted. Someone give the guy a gold medal, because he's apparently the only guy playing it right and the rest of us are wrong.
That seems to be the case with every serious Exalted fan. They are all the only one who gets the game and plays it right. They all seem to be playing different games though. Ask 10 Exalted fans what Exalted is really about and you get 12 different answers. I have pressed a few and it turned out that they were all playing homebrew games that were loosely derived from Exalted. None of them were playing a game that bore much mechanical resemblance in the one in the book I own. One had junked the entire system and was using (iirc) Weapons of the Gods with the Exalted setting while still decrying criticism of the Exalted system by saying that he was playing it and that it worked just fine thank you very much.
Quote from: yosemitemike;905080That seems to be the case with every serious Exalted fan. They are all the only one who gets the game and plays it right. They all seem to be playing different games though. Ask 10 Exalted fans what Exalted is really about and you get 12 different answers. I have pressed a few and it turned out that they were all playing homebrew games that were loosely derived from Exalted. None of them were playing a game that bore much mechanical resemblance in the one in the book I own. One had junked the entire system and was using (iirc) Weapons of the Gods with the Exalted setting while still decrying criticism of the Exalted system by saying that he was playing it and that it worked just fine thank you very much.
I've heard stories of the same thing being the case with AD&D. :)
Quote from: yosemitemike;905080^I ran it RAW without being any sort of gaming god. It can be done. It was just way more trouble than it was worth. The system was a constant obstacle. It did nothing but trip people and get in the way.
Which edition? 1st ed worked as RAW. Sorta. If you didn't push it too hard and go past a certain level. Players that were willing to play along and either missed certain exploits or weren't into optimization helped immensely. And even then there was some stuff you just had to ignore or patch. I'd still say it was the most functional versions I've played. And yes, you were fighting the system. 2 and 2.5 worked to a lesser extent with even more pitfalls and things you had to patch and then results left something to be desired. I had to patch, houserule and just flat out handwave all three and I'm not unique in that regard.
I commend anyone that didn't on their patience and/or exceptional improv skills. The gamers I've met that said they were "running it by RAW and it worked fine!" were doing it Old WoD/Storyteller style. That is avoiding actually using the mechanics as much as possible and "storytelling" things out, maybe occasionally rolling dice and making shit up from the results enough to make them feel like they were using the system when they were at best a guideline. There's not innately wrong with that but I don't feel like paying for a few hundred pages of rules for it and claiming that's using "RAW" is disingenuous at best.
3rd Edition leaves me cold but it appears to work in a workman like fashion but the complexity and design choices are not for me and according to some the cracks are already starting to show.
Quote from: yosemitemike;905080That seems to be the case with every serious Exalted fan. They are all the only one who gets the game and plays it right. They all seem to be playing different games though. Ask 10 Exalted fans what Exalted is really about and you get 12 different answers. I have pressed a few and it turned out that they were all playing homebrew games that were loosely derived from Exalted. None of them were playing a game that bore much mechanical resemblance in the one in the book I own. One had junked the entire system and was using (iirc) Weapons of the Gods with the Exalted setting while still decrying criticism of the Exalted system by saying that he was playing it and that it worked just fine thank you very much.
I don't know why but for some weird reason this description makes me want to check out Exalted 3E. Must be the masochist in me.
Quote from: yosemitemike;905080That seems to be the case with every serious Exalted fan. They are all the only one who gets the game and plays it right. They all seem to be playing different games though. Ask 10 Exalted fans what Exalted is really about and you get 12 different answers.
This. I've been saying this for years. It why all the "This is what Exalted is!" noise just make me roll my eyes at this point. That and what its intended to be seems to officially change with each edition when the last one collapses one itself.
^Unless people are talking about a verifiable fact like the atomic weight of iron or something, people declaring, "This is what (fill in the blank) is about!" make me roll my eyes. It's almost always just pompous, self-important horseshit.
Quote from: camazotz;905089I don't know why but for some weird reason this description makes me want to check out Exalted 3E. Must be the masochist in me.
I don't know about 3e. I have never read it. I already have a big stack of 1st edition books and a big stack of 2nd edition books that are mostly unused and no players interested in Exalted at all. The fact that it is $30 for a pdf copy doesn't encourage me to look at it out of curiosity either. I have heard that 3rd functions better as a system but I have no first hand knowledge of it.
Why do they charge the PDFs so much? Considering making copies of these are free you think these digital books would be cheap by now.
Quote from: Snowman0147;905123Why do they charge the PDFs so much? Considering making copies of these are free you think these digital books would be cheap by now.
My guess...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]204[/ATTACH]
Charge what the market will bear and with Exatly evidently it will bear a great deal. The idea of Exalted 3rd made just over half a million dollars. and that was for a "fancy" edition. The game itself was happening regardless.
Quote from: Snowman0147;905123Why do they charge the PDFs so much? Considering making copies of these are free you think these digital books would be cheap by now.
PDF copies of core books are mostly $15-20 or so. Beast: the Primordial and Chronicles of Darkness are both in this price range. It's just Exalted and the 20th anniversary editions that are at $30. It's not a huge amount of money or anything but it's enough to make me think twice about getting it just to check it out.
Quote from: Snowman0147;905123Why do they charge the PDFs so much? Considering making copies of these are free you think these digital books would be cheap by now.
The fact that PDF prices don't inevitably gravitate toward the marginal cost of production- zero dollars- has a couple reasons behind it. First, you still have to recoup non-print production costs, which are the same for a PDF and a print copy. Art, layout, writing, editing, and your own sweat equity all have to get covered. If you're selling POD, where the customer pays before you have to print the book, these non-print costs are effectively your entire production cost and are the same between formats.
For one example, take Godbound's $60 premium color hardcover at 251 pages. Print cost is approximately $31, OBS's taste is 35% on the rest, netting $18.75 profit for me. If that's my share of the take, the customer is paying me, personally, 7.5 cents/page for my writing, apart from the print format costs and OBS's cut. The $20 PDF gets me $13 profit at a 5.2 cents/page cost to the customer. Both editions cost me basically the same amount of up-front money to create, given POD realities, but the PDF is already losing me almost six bucks in profit per copy sold, and the ten dollars given back to the PDF-only buyer off what they're paying to me specifically for the premium print.
To compare, look at Exalted 3e. Premium hardcover runs $114 for 656 pages. Print cost is about $74, OBS takes 35% of the rest, giving OPP $26 profit/copy and a to-the-customer cost of... 3.9 cents/page. About half what they paid to get my stuff in print. The $30 PDF they're selling nets them about $20, but leaves the customer paying a rock-bottom price of three pennies per page to OPP. OPP is netting approximately 50% more profit than I am on each copy sold of Exalted 3e, but I can tell you up front that Exalted 3e sure as Hell took more than 50% more effort to put together than Godbound did. A monster book like the 3e corebook simply cannot economically work without the sort of Kickstarter push it got. People get uncomfortable paying 3 cents a page for something that big. Pay your writers 3 cents a word, and you need to sell about 1,000 copies of the damn thing just to pay your
writing costs.
The second reason that PDF prices don't naturally fall to zero is that they're a luxury good marketed to a small group of relatively affluent patrons. They're almost the opposite of a commodity. Unless you're churning out Processed Extruded RPG Product, you're offering something that no other publisher can exactly replicate, so whoever wants your stuff has to buy it from you, and their only alternative to pushing the 'buy' button is to pirate it. The latter course is possible, but a correctly-chosen price will be more convenient for this niche market to pay than it is to try to navigate the pirate sites and find the thing there. Since a huge swath of our market is 40something knowledge workers in their prime earning years, they're just not going to quibble over five bucks either way if you're able to convince them that they need your specific brew.
And since you can get that money, it'd require a degree of business incompetence unusual even in the RPG industry to not take that money. You won't get significantly greater sales by chopping prices below the customary-and-usual, you'll just make your product look like the PERPGP wastelands of $2 Pathfinder classes and $1 homebrew campaign settings exported from MS Word. There are only so many people who are interested in the stuff we sell, and if you leave their money on the table, you won't make it up on volume.
Kevin, have I ever said you're my favorite?
Gosh, it's almost like things that take time and effort to produce eventually end up costing money.
And aren't little cartoons used to suggest that consumers are being fleeced in a niche industry that literally cannot support most human beings working in it just hilarious?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;904934Looks like AsenRG is the only guy who really gets Exalted. Someone give the guy a gold medal, because he's apparently the only guy playing it right and the rest of us are wrong.
Actually, I'm going to call bullshit on Asen's statements. Because up thread he's already claimed that he doesn't use a MASSIVE chunk of the system because he can't be arsed to actually deal with it, and still has the balls to claim to our face that he's using all the system.
Quote from: Jetstream;905147Kevin, have I ever said you're my favorite?
Gosh, it's almost like things that take time and effort to produce eventually end up costing money.
And aren't little cartoons used to suggest that consumers are being fleeced in a niche industry that literally cannot support most human beings working in it just hilarious?
Take your sarcastic ass home. I only ask why a specific company charges so much. You know one of a few companies that demand more money for both POD and PDF while Kevin offers his PDFs for free if you get the POD.
As for the rest of you guys. Thanks for answering my question.
Quote from: Jetstream;905147Gosh, it's almost like things that take time and effort to produce eventually end up costing money.
That's probably why no one at all here actually suggested that they shouldn't cost money.
Quote from: Jetstream;905147Kevin, have I ever said you're my favorite?
Gosh, it's almost like things that take time and effort to produce eventually end up costing money.
And aren't little cartoons used to suggest that consumers are being fleeced in a niche industry that literally cannot support most human beings working in it just hilarious?
Fleeced? No. Charged more than strictly necessary for some thing they're clearly willing to pay for? If the money's out there you'd be foolish to not get it and fanbase has shown they're willing to pay. A Cash Cow doesn't mean something is a rip off. But that its a major source of revenue, an income source that's milked for what its worth often to help support less profitable projects and products. Most small, niche industries have them or wish they did. Exalted is a major line for OP right now. They'd be stupid not to charge what can get for it. Now, if you think its worth it. That's the subjective part. I don't happen to think it is both due to quality and I'm hesitant to pay that much for any PDF. But the price? That's capitalism, pure and simple. And no one suggested that it should be free.
And its such a cute cow. :D
Quote from: Christopher Brady;905152Actually, I'm going to call bullshit on Asen's statements. Because up thread he's already claimed that he doesn't use a MASSIVE chunk of the system because he can't be arsed to actually deal with it, and still has the balls to claim to our face that he's using all the system.
Learn 2 sarcasm.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;905075At this point, I think he's a God.
Funny, another poster thinks I'm the Devil...:D
QuoteNot only is he actually USING the system, he's the ONLY person who hasn't houseruled or handwaved away any of the mechanics and made it WORK.
Of course I have. I did state so repeatedly.
QuoteThat is an impossible feat worthy of a Gaming God, there's no other way to explain how he does it.
The God Of Industrious Gaming? How big of a Cult rating do I get?
And where can I exchange the Ambrosia in Euro:p?
Quote from: yosemitemike;905080^I ran it RAW without being any sort of gaming god. It can be done.
Crap. There goes my godhood, too...:)
QuoteIt was just way more trouble than it was worth. The system was a constant obstacle. It did nothing but trip people and get in the way.
I have better experiences with it...but that's achieved by trimming the number of sub-systems.
QuoteThat seems to be the case with every serious Exalted fan. They are all the only one who gets the game and plays it right.
In fact, it's not limited to Exalted.
QuoteThey all seem to be playing different games though.
As a matter of fact, that's the case in all settings. You think two different GMs have the same view of any setting?
I doubt it.
There's a reason why the advice "make the setting your own" has been part of setting books since...oh, wait, since 1975 at least:D!
Quote from: Nexus;905088I commend anyone that didn't on their patience and/or exceptional improv skills. The gamers I've met that said they were "running it by RAW and it worked fine!" were doing it Old WoD/Storyteller style. That is avoiding actually using the mechanics as much as possible and "storytelling" things out, maybe occasionally rolling dice and making shit up from the results enough to make them feel like they were using the system when they were at best a guideline. There's not innately wrong with that but I don't feel like paying for a few hundred pages of rules for it and claiming that's using "RAW" is disingenuous at best.
I admit these guys always amazed me, too. I mean, why do you even need hundreds of pages of rules that you're not going to use:)?
Quote3rd Edition leaves me cold but it appears to work in a workman like fashion but the complexity and design choices are not for me and according to some the cracks are already starting to show.
Well, no cracks so far have become apparent. I'll report if it happens;).
Quote from: yosemitemike;905100^Unless people are talking about a verifiable fact like the atomic weight of iron or something, people declaring, "This is what (fill in the blank) is about!" make me roll my eyes. It's almost always just pompous, self-important horseshit.
Usually that statement means "that's how the setting was meant to be used by the author". Nobody says you can't use it differently, but it is a data point to consider.
QuoteI have heard that 3rd functions better as a system but I have no first hand knowledge of it.
It functions better as a system.
Also, if you want a lighter system, you might as well consider the Burn Legend hack;).
Quote from: SineNomine;905130The fact that PDF prices don't inevitably gravitate toward the marginal cost of production- zero dollars- has a couple reasons behind it. First, you still have to recoup non-print production costs, which are the same for a PDF and a print copy. Art, layout, writing, editing, and your own sweat equity all have to get covered. If you're selling POD, where the customer pays before you have to print the book, these non-print costs are effectively your entire production cost and are the same between formats.
For one example, take Godbound's $60 premium color hardcover at 251 pages. Print cost is approximately $31, OBS's taste is 35% on the rest, netting $18.75 profit for me. If that's my share of the take, the customer is paying me, personally, 7.5 cents/page for my writing, apart from the print format costs and OBS's cut. The $20 PDF gets me $13 profit at a 5.2 cents/page cost to the customer. Both editions cost me basically the same amount of up-front money to create, given POD realities, but the PDF is already losing me almost six bucks in profit per copy sold, and the ten dollars given back to the PDF-only buyer off what they're paying to me specifically for the premium print.
To compare, look at Exalted 3e. Premium hardcover runs $114 for 656 pages. Print cost is about $74, OBS takes 35% of the rest, giving OPP $26 profit/copy and a to-the-customer cost of... 3.9 cents/page. About half what they paid to get my stuff in print. The $30 PDF they're selling nets them about $20, but leaves the customer paying a rock-bottom price of three pennies per page to OPP. OPP is netting approximately 50% more profit than I am on each copy sold of Exalted 3e, but I can tell you up front that Exalted 3e sure as Hell took more than 50% more effort to put together than Godbound did. A monster book like the 3e corebook simply cannot economically work without the sort of Kickstarter push it got. People get uncomfortable paying 3 cents a page for something that big. Pay your writers 3 cents a word, and you need to sell about 1,000 copies of the damn thing just to pay your writing costs.
The second reason that PDF prices don't naturally fall to zero is that they're a luxury good marketed to a small group of relatively affluent patrons. They're almost the opposite of a commodity. Unless you're churning out Processed Extruded RPG Product, you're offering something that no other publisher can exactly replicate, so whoever wants your stuff has to buy it from you, and their only alternative to pushing the 'buy' button is to pirate it. The latter course is possible, but a correctly-chosen price will be more convenient for this niche market to pay than it is to try to navigate the pirate sites and find the thing there. Since a huge swath of our market is 40something knowledge workers in their prime earning years, they're just not going to quibble over five bucks either way if you're able to convince them that they need your specific brew.
And since you can get that money, it'd require a degree of business incompetence unusual even in the RPG industry to not take that money. You won't get significantly greater sales by chopping prices below the customary-and-usual, you'll just make your product look like the PERPGP wastelands of $2 Pathfinder classes and $1 homebrew campaign settings exported from MS Word. There are only so many people who are interested in the stuff we sell, and if you leave their money on the table, you won't make it up on volume.
OK, that's an amusing, well-read analysis of the PDF pricing.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;905152Actually, I'm going to call bullshit on Asen's statements. Because up thread he's already claimed that he doesn't use a MASSIVE chunk of the system because he can't be arsed to actually deal with it, and still has the balls to claim to our face that he's using all the system.
I didn't renege on that statement, either. It's your reading comprehension that's suffering. Let me try and explain again;).
I am using the system. I'm using all of the system in the sub-systems that I actually use.
I've decided to discard other systems, because I do consider my ideas better - for me, at least (though given the opinion many posters here seem to have of the Ex3 developers, it looks likely that I might even find unexpected support if I needed it:D).
I'm not using all sub-systems of the system - that's not the same thing. In fact, I couldn't do that even if I wanted to, because nobody in my group has even bothered to take Craft as a skill.
Similarly, I'm not using the Antagonists, other than as guidelines, because
I can't be bothered to, or simply because I didn't want to. That's not always a process towards a simplification - I've actually added charms to some NPCs that were presented as antagonists. The reasons? Because I wanted to tinker with them, and it made sense!
Glad to clarify that for you. Now move along and try to construct a better argument!
Quote from: AsenRG;905174In fact, it's not limited to Exalted.
and no one said it was.
Quote from: AsenRG;905174As a matter of fact, that's the case in all settings. You think two different GMs have the same view of any setting?
There's a lot of excluded middle ground between every GM having the exact same view of the setting and being in a dicsussion where it sounds like 10 different people are talking about 10 different games and all calling them the same name.
Quote from: AsenRG;905174Usually that statement means "that's how the setting was meant to be used by the author". Nobody says you can't use it differently, but it is a data point to consider.
That would be the case if it were the author making that statement but it almost never is. It's generally a pretentious fan trying to pretend that their subjective opinion is objective fact and what the game is
really about.
Quote from: yosemitemike;905185and no one said it was.
If you didn't mean to imply that it was, I apologize for having misunderstood you:).
QuoteThere's a lot of excluded middle ground between every GM having the exact same view of the setting and being in a dicsussion where it sounds like 10 different people are talking about 10 different games and all calling them the same name.
Except 10 games set up in 10 of the cardinally different parts of the setting will be wildly different, because it's a fucking huge landmass, and that's before different interpretations come into play...
IME, there's three kinds of people that run Exalted. The first focus on one of the sources of the setting's inspiration, like the epic legends, Tanith Lee's S&S stories, or the anime influences and then quibble with other fans why this particular source of inspiration is the most important one. The second try to run a game of transhuman superheroes in a fantasy setting. The third try to mix and match more than one of the above.
All of them are usually firmly of the opinion that the other groups are Doing Exalted Wrong.
And of course, everyone not sharing my approach simply is Doing Exalted Wrong, in fact it's so wrong it's almost triggering me:D!
QuoteThat would be the case if it were the author making that statement but it almost never is. It's generally a pretentious fan trying to pretend that their subjective opinion is objective fact and what the game is really about.
The authors these days often make their goals clear, so the fan might well know what he's talking about;).
Quote from: AsenRG;905174I didn't renege on that statement, either. It's your reading comprehension that's suffering. Let me try and explain again;).
I am using the system. I'm using all of the system in the sub-systems that I actually use.
I've decided to discard other systems, because I do consider my ideas better - for me, at least (though given the opinion many posters here seem to have of the Ex3 developers, it looks likely that I might even find unexpected support if I needed it:D).
I'm not using all sub-systems of the system - that's not the same thing. In fact, I couldn't do that even if I wanted to, because nobody in my group has even bothered to take Craft as a skill.
Similarly, I'm not using the Antagonists, other than as guidelines, because I can't be bothered to, or simply because I didn't want to. That's not always a process towards a simplification - I've actually added charms to some NPCs that were presented as antagonists. The reasons? Because I wanted to tinker with them, and it made sense!
Glad to clarify that for you. Now move along and try to construct a better argument!
Bullshit. You've claimed you don't use the antagonists section. Which is a rather LARGER and intricate chunk of the system. Not book, but actual system. Let me point out where it all starts, so you can try and stuff a third foot into your mouth trying to verbally dance around it again.
Quote from: AsenRG;902116No, that's just houseruling/improving the rules on "Quick Characters", which are explicitly part of the third edition:p!
That is not using the rules, that's making shit up because you can't be arsed to use the full system. So either you don't use the entire system because you don't actually care about it, or you've read it and realized just how insanely hard it is to maintain any sort of fun, unless you love Excel spreadsheeting.
I love that Mr. Emoticon keeps screaming at the hurricane of "Ex3 sucks!" reason with support of why people think it sucks. Ex3's system is serviceable for gaming the same way using a screwdriver to hammer a nail is serviceable: both can get the job done, but it's suboptimal and will likely break something.
I think you're being a bit excessive. God knows I don't exactly like Exalted (at least since Game of Divinity) or its current developers, but there's a market, however small it might be, for very crunchy games.
And also, the fact people like the crunch doesn't automatically translate as "they want to use every single rule in a huge-ass book".
Quote from: Christopher Brady;905280Bullshit. You've claimed you don't use the antagonists section. Which is a rather LARGER and intricate chunk of the system.
So..."if you make your own opponents, you're not using the system":D?
Do you also object to third-party supplements:p?
That's...stupid beyond belief. NPC stats are a series of target numbers you need to hit or exceed, a series of resistances, and a series of tricks they can pull from their sleeves. That's all. The idea that if I don't use The Officially (R) Approved Numbers (TM)...
Why, it reminds me of TSR and Kevin Simbieda - except you don't have his style:D!
Oh, and for the record, I always have Excel spreadsheats with NPCs:). I don't need the sheets because of the rules info, they just contain the GM-only info. You know the stuff, I would hope (though with you, I'm done assuming that you know anything). Who they know, what they know, what relationships they have to whom, what they own, what they look like, where they are at the moment.
That's
orders of fucking magnitude more important than their stupid stats!
And that's, in all likelihood, the last time I address your posts.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;905337I love that Mr. Emoticon keeps screaming at the hurricane of "Ex3 sucks!" reason with support of why people think it sucks. Ex3's system is serviceable for gaming the same way using a screwdriver to hammer a nail is serviceable: both can get the job done, but it's suboptimal and will likely break something.
Fine. Show me a more optimal system for doing the Exalted setting, and one that I have obviously missed:).
Also, the hurricane around here started with "Ex3 is not serviceable" and other exaggerated claims. I objected to that and pointed that no, it can be used and is fun.
Now that you are back to "there's better ways", my answer is much simpler. No, I'm not claiming Ex3 is necessarily the best Exalted system for every group. That would be stupid. Different groups have different needs.
There are probably systems that would do Exalted better for you, too. I've houseruled other systems to run Exalted already, myself, between the KS being announced and receiving the official book - and it's arguable whether my systems didn't have at least some advantages over the current edition. (Scratch that, at least some of them did have some advantages - but the current edition also has its own advantages, too).
Either way, now I just want to try the third edition. After that? I might use Godbound, or whatever other system strikes my fancy. In all likelihood, it would be Mythras Exalted:D!
Quote from: AsenRG;905358So..."if you make your own opponents, you're not using the system"?
That's not what you said, stop moving goal posts.
Quote from: AsenRG;905358Do you also object to third-party supplements:p?
Those are still house-rules, someone else's that you paid for (assuming it's not something some guy made up that you like, which by the way is totally fine as long as you admit that is what you're doing.) But the question is: Are you using this third party to replace broken rules? Or are you using them to add on to the base rules. I'm thinking it's the former, despite your constant harping about how the system is perfectly fine despite not using the antagonist section.
Quote from: AsenRG;905358Oh, and for the record, I always have Excel spreadsheats with NPCs:). I don't need the sheets because of the rules info, they just contain the GM-only info. You know the stuff, I would hope (though with you, I'm done assuming that you know anything). Who they know, what they know, what relationships they have to whom, what they own, what they look like, where they are at the moment.
That's orders of fucking magnitude more important than their stupid stats!
No, actually, it's not. ESPECIALLY if you're planning on using the charms. The moment you introduce those little packets of rules, all those things can in theory change. Especially the Social Manipulation Charms, which can alter every single one of those little bullet points that you have your excel spreadsheet. They can change your NPC's personalities, who they view as allies, enemies and lovers and all sorts of things that will change the moment your social expert player (Assuming you have one, although in my experience there usually is, but that's just anecdotal.) They can, in theory, -assuming your players are OK with this- alter PC's personalities and 'intimacies'.
There's a total of 650+ little things you hand wave away as not important, despite being the core chunk of the book! The Charms, which affect everything, especially if you have non-combat antagonists that use the social Charms instead of Kick to Face ones.
Which pretty much means that no, you're not using Exalted as written.
But here's the ONLY problem with that. It means that your contribution to this particular conversation is not useful. It's actively detrimental. BUT! This is the only place that this actually matters.
If your friends are totally fine with your hand waves and house rules, you keep going. Keep doing whatever it is that allows you to keep this game fun, despite the sheer mess it is for the rest of us. You managed to fix it for your crew, which frankly is a massive undertaking that I honestly applaud. I take one look at it, and I give up. You didn't. That is something I wish I could do.
But you're not helping this conversation about what can be done to improve, because you've assumed that your house rules are as written in the book, when they're clearly not.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;905427That's not what you said, stop moving goal posts.
:D
Of course it's not what I said! This is what follows from what
you said:).
In fact, you repeated it in this post I'm quoting.
Obviously I wouldn't say something as monumentally stupid! I'm quoting it so I could laugh at it - and I had the vain hope you'd realize how stupid it is and go back. Obviously didn't work out, some people don't see when they're offered a way out:p.
QuoteThose are still house-rules, someone else's that you paid for (assuming it's not something some guy made up that you like, which by the way is totally fine as long as you admit that is what you're doing.)
Which is somehow different from any system ever? How? OD&D were Gary Gygax's house rules (the question of whoever else participated in fleshing them out notwithstanding). Traveller is Marc Miller's houserules for science fiction. And so on.
QuoteBut the question is: Are you using this third party to replace broken rules? Or are you using them to add on to the base rules.
I'm not using them to replace a rule that wouldn't work, or would break the game - so no, it's not "to replace the broken rules", much as your hate-on for Ex3 makes you want that this were the case...
I'm using them because they work better. Period.
QuoteI'm thinking it's the former, despite your constant harping about how the system is perfectly fine despite not using the antagonist section.
That's again misquoting what I said...but I corrected you in my previous post:D. I don't have the time to spare for doing it again.
QuoteNo, actually, it's not. ESPECIALLY if you're planning on using the charms.
OK, you need to go back to GMing 101. Have fun with it, it should be useful, according to my observations about you - from this thread and others;).
QuoteThe moment you introduce those little packets of rules, all those things can in theory change. Especially the Social Manipulation Charms, which can alter every single one of those little bullet points that you have your excel spreadsheet.
Of course they can. If you can't change those things without influencing them
Quotedirectly
with the system, either your players, or your GMing sucks (or both). No need for Charms. Charms are just a way to change the difficulty numbers, anyway.
The fun part about spreadsheets is they allow me to track the changes.
QuoteThey can change your NPC's personalities, who they view as allies, enemies and lovers and all sorts of things that will change the moment your social expert player (Assuming you have one, although in my experience there usually is, but that's just anecdotal.) They can, in theory, -assuming your players are OK with this- alter PC's personalities and 'intimacies'.
Most of the group tends to be mostly of social experts. That's not a bug, it's a feature.
QuoteThere's a total of 650+ little things you hand wave away as not important, despite being the core chunk of the book! The Charms, which affect everything, especially if you have non-combat antagonists that use the social Charms instead of Kick to Face ones.
Charms just change your difficulties numbers.
QuoteWhich pretty much means that no, you're not using Exalted as written.
Now you're just being obtuse. Stop it, it's boring.
No need to continue responding to your posts, anyway - let me use a certain forum feature;).
Quote from: AsenRG;905694Charms just change your difficulties numbers.
I'm done. This statement alone tells me, and likely everyone, that you've not even read that section of the rules. Because if you did, you'd know that there's waaaay too many caveats with this overly simplistic view of them.
They do change target numbers, but in context of a specific action you wish to do, which may be countered by another rules packet that actively resists that previous action.
But... No. I can't. Done. I am out.
You win, Asen, you've beaten me senseless with your lack of knowledge of the system you claim is perfectly fine. I've lost. I admit defeat.
Quote from: Luca;905356I think you're being a bit excessive. God knows I don't exactly like Exalted (at least since Game of Divinity) or its current developers, but there's a market, however small it might be, for very crunchy games.
And also, the fact people like the crunch doesn't automatically translate as "they want to use every single rule in a huge-ass book".
What is pissing people off isn't crunchy games. Nobody's shitting on GURPS or HERO or such. They're shitting on Ex3 because it was promised/pushed/sold/etc. to be a streamlined rule set built from the ground up. This is completely not the case. Add in the fuck-ton of dickery from OPP and the small group of fans who will swallow any shit-covered treat Rich Thomas pushes in their mouths, and it all becomes too much.
I agree that not every rule needs to be used in a game, however when you have so many uber-crunchy, high-bookkeeping, counterintuitive rules covering core concepts, it's bullshit. Take older cyberpunk games and hacking; many people had to either not play a hacker, ignore the rules or have the trudge of a separate game when hacking occurred. That shouldn't be the case, especially when hacking's so integral to cyberpunk. This is the same in Ex3 but with more sections. So, you either handwave shit, ignore it (and cut out swaths of the setting) or take the pain.
Quote from: AsenRG;905358So..."if you make your own opponents, you're not using the system":D?
Do you also object to third-party supplements:p?
That's...stupid beyond belief. NPC stats are a series of target numbers you need to hit or exceed, a series of resistances, and a series of tricks they can pull from their sleeves. That's all. The idea that if I don't use The Officially (R) Approved Numbers (TM)...
Why, it reminds me of TSR and Kevin Simbieda - except you don't have his style:D!
Oh, and for the record, I always have Excel spreadsheats with NPCs:). I don't need the sheets because of the rules info, they just contain the GM-only info. You know the stuff, I would hope (though with you, I'm done assuming that you know anything). Who they know, what they know, what relationships they have to whom, what they own, what they look like, where they are at the moment.
That's orders of fucking magnitude more important than their stupid stats!
And that's, in all likelihood, the last time I address your posts.
Fine. Show me a more optimal system for doing the Exalted setting, and one that I have obviously missed:).
Also, the hurricane around here started with "Ex3 is not serviceable" and other exaggerated claims. I objected to that and pointed that no, it can be used and is fun.
Now that you are back to "there's better ways", my answer is much simpler. No, I'm not claiming Ex3 is necessarily the best Exalted system for every group. That would be stupid. Different groups have different needs.
There are probably systems that would do Exalted better for you, too. I've houseruled other systems to run Exalted already, myself, between the KS being announced and receiving the official book - and it's arguable whether my systems didn't have at least some advantages over the current edition. (Scratch that, at least some of them did have some advantages - but the current edition also has its own advantages, too).
Either way, now I just want to try the third edition. After that? I might use Godbound, or whatever other system strikes my fancy. In all likelihood, it would be Mythras Exalted:D!
You're not going to win this, dude. OPP stepped on their dicks
FAR too often with this game and it's suffered for it. The game is so far fucking away from anything even close to what they promised and that's why people are pissed. If they'd said, "Hey! We're making a third edition of Exalted and we're going to use the base ST System and make a very high-crunch game with a TON of new stuff, both crunch and fluff, stuffed in!", people wouldn't be pissed; they knew what to expect. That's not what they did and a few serviceable or cool bits doesn't make it run well. It's like having sweet rims on a total piece of shit breadvan, then expecting to pick up hot chicks. Ain't gonna happen.
The thing is, the Exalted setting isn't so awesome that people are willing to swallow the giant turd of rules again, not when they have Godbound, Gods of the Fall, Part-Time Gods and a bunch of other great stuff they actually like playing.
It doesn't help that the developers are a bit nuts on keeping mechanics and narrative separate, to the point that even things with clear in-universe meaning are explicitly stated to have no in-universe existence. Solar Charms do not exist in-setting. Essence does not exist in-universe. Withering vs. decisive attacks do not exist. Even though all of these do have meaningful in-setting reality. Solar Exalted can feel their Essence, this is directly stated. Sorcerors gather motes, this is clearly stated. Initiative represents, we are explicitly told, the ebb and flow of combat. Anyone with any training at all in any kind of fighting knows that most fighting isn't about hurting the opponent: it's about getting yourself and your opponent into a position where you can actually inflict meaningful damage. That's what "withering" and "decisive" attacks mean, and what initiative represents(except with that weird "initiative charge" business in Steel Devil Style).
Quote from: Luca;905356I think you're being a bit excessive. God knows I don't exactly like Exalted (at least since Game of Divinity) or its current developers, but there's a market, however small it might be, for very crunchy games.
And also, the fact people like the crunch doesn't automatically translate as "they want to use every single rule in a huge-ass book".
It isn't about high crunch, not for me anyway. My go to system is Hero System and I like GURPS quite a bit so I'm not scared of crunch. Its crunch that feels excessive, awkward and unnecessarily byzantine. The new edition isn't streamlined as promised. Its bigger, more bloated and overburdened in a way that, IMO, isn't required or even desirable for what its trying to do; that actively gets in the way, IME. I mean if ever run Exalted in my go to system I will be doing paring it down, turning off allot of the options that add complexity. Hero System is designed to be modular in that way.
Quote from: Whitewings;905817It doesn't help that the developers are a bit nuts on keeping mechanics and narrative separate, to the point that even things with clear in-universe meaning are explicitly stated to have no in-universe existence. Solar Charms do not exist in-setting. Essence does not exist in-universe. Withering vs. decisive attacks do not exist. Even though all of these do have meaningful in-setting reality. Solar Exalted can feel their Essence, this is directly stated. Sorcerors gather motes, this is clearly stated. Initiative represents, we are explicitly told, the ebb and flow of combat. Anyone with any training at all in any kind of fighting knows that most fighting isn't about hurting the opponent: it's about getting yourself and your opponent into a position where you can actually inflict meaningful damage. That's what "withering" and "decisive" attacks mean, and what initiative represents(except with that weird "initiative charge" business in Steel Devil Style).
I don't like how the "narrative" and "mechanical" are separate until they're not much either. Charms aren't in setting things for Solars. Except for Martial Arts, except for those that clearly -have- to be distinct ability (like making objects out of thin air). Withering and Decisive attacks and Initiative aren't in character but there are options and effects that treat them as such scattered though the rules or would at least make allot of more sense of they were. Come to think of its, in Shonen anime combat the equivalent of "Withering" and "Decisive" attacks are discussed in character quite a bit. Hell, I can think of ways making them IC could add depth and flavor to combat. The Crafting rules are major example of te mechanics effecting the narratives for "reasons", too.
Sublime Transference has to be the perfect example. It's a thing-that-is-not (a Solar Charm) which allows the use of another thing-that-is-not (Essence) to change a third thing-that-is-not (Crafting experience points) to make possible a thing-that-is (a crafting project). It doesn't make any sense either in setting or out of it. Actually, most of the Craft rules are like that, especially since a great many Solar Craft Charms are designed to bypass the usual rules and restrictions.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;905800What is pissing people off isn't crunchy games. Nobody's shitting on GURPS or HERO or such. They're shitting on Ex3 because it was promised/pushed/sold/etc. to be a streamlined rule set built from the ground up. This is completely not the case.
The two systems don't have even a single setting between them that has at least one tenth of the following Exalted has. Settings are something people care about more than systems, I've found...
OK, maybe I should say "that Exalted fans care about more than systems". That might be due to the fact that anyone who cared about the system has probably left Exalted behind long ago...:D
QuoteAdd in the fuck-ton of dickery from OPP and the small group of fans who will swallow any shit-covered treat Rich Thomas pushes in their mouths, and it all becomes too much.
I must admit, if I was paying attention to the online presence of some developers, I'd probably have joined the rabid anti-fans. The infamous Holden BS statement about "knowing what rules the fans want better than them" would have probably sufficed.
It helps that I don't care, I think. If they ever misbehave towards me, I'll chew them just as I chew any of you. In fact, unlike many people, I keep forgetting who was working on Exalted at the moment, and who isn't.
That also helps me in another respect. If a non-developer says something smart, I'd use it. If a developer says something stupid, I'd ignore it. After all, when I run the game, it's my job to make it fun. Every other consideration can go and
perform anatomically unnatural acts with itself because it's
not my job to care.QuoteI agree that not every rule needs to be used in a game,
Praised be people with common sense, for theirs is the fun;)!
Quotehowever when you have so many uber-crunchy, high-bookkeeping, counterintuitive rules covering core concepts, it's bullshit.
Well, it helps that I like crunchy games and very light games about equally. I can and do play either.
Some of my favourite systems are Artesia, GURPS, The Riddle of Steel, Traveller and Barbarians of Lemuria.
As for counter-intuitive...I know some people consider some concepts in Ex3 to be counter-intuitive, like the Initiative thing. But to me, they are highly intuitive precisely because it maps well to real-world analogies.
In fact, I explained the Ex3 combat system to my group using examples from sword practice. The ones who practice got it fast.
QuoteTake older cyberpunk games and hacking; many people had to either not play a hacker, ignore the rules or have the trudge of a separate game when hacking occurred. That shouldn't be the case, especially when hacking's so integral to cyberpunk.
You're referring to "the hacker problem"? I've never played in a game where it was an issue. Then again, it probably has something to do with the fact that we're usually willing to split up.
QuoteThis is the same in Ex3 but with more sections. So, you either handwave shit, ignore it (and cut out swaths of the setting) or take the pain.
Not quite. I don't have to cut anything out of Exalted 3, unless I want to. I did it because I'm used to doing it that way.
In fact, I started my short-lived column on TBP with explaining how to create NPCs on the fly (https://www.rpg.net/columns/tricksforgms/tricksforgms1.phtml) so you can bet I've been doing it for a while now:).
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;905801You're not going to win this, dude.
"Win it"? Who says I'm trying to? I would have approached it rather differently if I was. OPP aren't paying me, alas, so I'm not:p.
I'm discussing the game I play. If I grow bored with this discussion, I'm going to stop replying, and let other people use the thread to curse OPP and congratulate themselves on having "pushed me out":D.
QuoteOPP stepped on their dicks FAR too often with this game and it's suffered for it.
I doubt their dicks are long enough to reach the ground, so I express doubt in your statement;).
I agree with it when taken non-literally, though.
QuoteThe game is so far fucking away from anything even close to what they promised and that's why people are pissed. If they'd said, "Hey! We're making a third edition of Exalted and we're going to use the base ST System and make a very high-crunch game with a TON of new stuff, both crunch and fluff, stuffed in!", people wouldn't be pissed; they knew what to expect.
That's why I'm not pissed. They said that, back in 2012, and I was listening. I can't blame them for them - I did know how heavy it's going to be before pledging.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?638117-Exalted-Third-Edition
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?639128-Exalted-3rd-edition-What-do-you-absolutely-not-want-to-see
Now, what they should have done is putting those facts on the KS page...but that's on them.
QuoteThe thing is, the Exalted setting isn't so awesome that people are willing to swallow the giant turd of rules again, not when they have Godbound, Gods of the Fall, Part-Time Gods and a bunch of other great stuff they actually like playing.
Opinions on that account obviously vary;). We'll see how strongly by the viability of the line. If people keep buying it, they're probably playing it. The guys that don't play it are the exceptions.
Now, if you ask me what it says about TBP that there are so many of the exceptions there, I'd shrug and say that it probably just says that people that don't play have more time for forums.
Quote from: Whitewings;905817It doesn't help that the developers are a bit nuts on keeping mechanics and narrative separate, to the point that even things with clear in-universe meaning are explicitly stated to have no in-universe existence. Solar Charms do not exist in-setting. Essence does not exist in-universe.
Yes, that's tiring...and I'm disregarding it, because I'm still using the a mix of the settings of all three editions. 3e was outvoted.
QuoteWithering vs. decisive attacks do not exist.
Actually, they do, if you describe them like they do. It's explicitly stated in the book. I've even quoted some of the relevant passages in this thread.
The reason it's stated as not existing is, I suspect, because they didn't want fans that can't understand the concept to wail and whine that "we can't stunt in this edition":D.
QuoteEven though all of these do have meaningful in-setting reality. Solar Exalted can feel their Essence, this is directly stated. Sorcerors gather motes, this is clearly stated. Initiative represents, we are explicitly told, the ebb and flow of combat. Anyone with any training at all in any kind of fighting knows that most fighting isn't about hurting the opponent: it's about getting yourself and your opponent into a position where you can actually inflict meaningful damage.
Absolutely, especially the bolded part! That's exactly why the players with hand-to-hand or weapons training in my group grasped the concept faster than the rest of them!
QuoteThat's what "withering" and "decisive" attacks mean, and what initiative represents(except with that weird "initiative charge" business in Steel Devil Style).
Totally true - but "initiative charge" is just a method of describing distracting the opponent and tying him to deal with your main weapon, freeing the other hand, I believe. Admittedly, I haven't considered it, though I've got in the background a "three-way war betweeen rival schools" where people trained in the Steel Devil from the book are clashing with a variant Steel Devil using a slender sword and a dagger and a group of military guys advocating the use of the spear and sword. (Admittedly, the third school tries to stay away - the other two groups are bravos trying to prove themselves, while these guys are mostly in the military. They also happen to be the best at it, due to practical experience, and have never lost a duel so far. The experience thing is also why they're trying to stay away, and are debating whether to admit publicly that one of the other two styles was invented first, which they don't believe for a second).
And yes, the mechanics are the same, except for allowed weapons. People have been killing each other over stupider things, as we all know;).
Quote from: Nexus;905829Withering and Decisive attacks and Initiative aren't in character but there are options and effects that treat them as such scattered though the rules or would at least make allot of more sense of they were. Come to think of its, in Shonen anime combat the equivalent of "Withering" and "Decisive" attacks are discussed in character quite a bit. Hell, I can think of ways making them IC could add depth and flavor to combat. The Crafting rules are major example of te mechanics effecting the narratives for "reasons", too.
Man, just two questions.
I know you don't like the system, but if it said that withering and decisive are IC and not OOC, would it improve your opinion?
Also, if you can think of those ways, why don't you make them IC, even if you think* the rulebook disagrees?
*The rulebook actually says that making them IC is totally legit, as I quoted. But the perception among fans is that it says they're OOC. As I stated above, I suspect the ambiguity is there on purpose.
Quote from: Whitewings;905833Sublime Transference has to be the perfect example. It's a thing-that-is-not (a Solar Charm) which allows the use of another thing-that-is-not (Essence) to change a third thing-that-is-not (Crafting experience points) to make possible a thing-that-is (a crafting project). It doesn't make any sense either in setting or out of it. Actually, most of the Craft rules are like that, especially since a great many Solar Craft Charms are designed to bypass the usual rules and restrictions.
You suddenly make me glad that I have no crafters in my party!
Quote from: AsenRG;905844I know you don't like the system, but if it said that withering and decisive are IC and not OOC, would it improve your opinion?
Also, if you can think of those ways, why don't you make them IC, even if you think* the rulebook disagrees?
It would be one small improvement in a pile of garbage and another example of poor design choices that were sent through. If its that obvious to me and others that are house ruling you'd think the alleged geniuses working on it should have thought of it in three years.Even once that aspect is fixed there are other odd issues and problems (like charm effects based on the idea they're different) tied to it that still remain and entire combat system is just clunky slow and worse, dull. So why should I go out of my why to polish OP's turd for them especially if it would be only a tiny step towards making the system palatable.
(IMO, YMMV, etc etc)
And I don't "think" the rule book says they're OOC. The rule book says there is no in setting difference between a Withering ans Decisive attacks. Onlookers or the characters involved can't tell the difference between them, all attacks in combat are considered to actual attempts to hurt the target. The dice pools are calculated in a way that only makes sense if they are actual attempts to hurt the target. I've read the section. This has been confirmed by others that have read the book including the people
that wrote the damn rules repeatedly. There are charm effects where treating the difference IC and making choices based on that has been called "Shenanigans".
The concession to the difference being in character is that you can stunt them as "maneuvering" or whatever if you want but even them there should be some concession to it being an attack such as a glancing hit the bounced off armor or inflicted "minor injury" or a parried/evade strike the sets your target up or grants some advantage but the character and anyone in setting sees it as a legitimate attempt to strike the target and injure them that, successful or not, happened to grant some benefit, planned or not. That is how it will be perceived in setting by all involved parties, trained, untrained, participating or watching. What you quoted above is a reason that they it makes sense for them to be IC not a statement that they are. That's part of the problem and makes the final choice all the more bizarre. But maybe it'll be address in 3.5 in a few years.
This isn't (curiously universal) "fan perception" but the text supports that (I guess unless you squint and read it sideways or have your special copy). The writers have confirmed it when it asked, fans that loved the system aside from that has talked about changing it. There is no ambiguity aside from in your head and its applied Rule 0 fallacy to claim that because you can change it there isn't a problem. I know you've got a hard on for the combat system but at least admit there's some flaws.
Quote from: AsenRG;905844The two systems don't have even a single setting between them that has at least one tenth of the following Exalted has. Settings are something people care about more than systems, I've found...
OK, maybe I should say "that Exalted fans care about more than systems". That might be due to the fact that anyone who cared about the system has probably left Exalted behind long ago...:D
I must admit, if I was paying attention to the online presence of some developers, I'd probably have joined the rabid anti-fans. The infamous Holden BS statement about "knowing what rules the fans want better than them" would have probably sufficed.
It helps that I don't care, I think. If they ever misbehave towards me, I'll chew them just as I chew any of you. In fact, unlike many people, I keep forgetting who was working on Exalted at the moment, and who isn't.
That also helps me in another respect. If a non-developer says something smart, I'd use it. If a developer says something stupid, I'd ignore it. After all, when I run the game, it's my job to make it fun. Every other consideration can go and perform anatomically unnatural acts with itself because it's not my job to care.
Praised be people with common sense, for theirs is the fun;)!
Well, it helps that I like crunchy games and very light games about equally. I can and do play either.
Some of my favourite systems are Artesia, GURPS, The Riddle of Steel, Traveller and Barbarians of Lemuria.
As for counter-intuitive...I know some people consider some concepts in Ex3 to be counter-intuitive, like the Initiative thing. But to me, they are highly intuitive precisely because it maps well to real-world analogies.
In fact, I explained the Ex3 combat system to my group using examples from sword practice. The ones who practice got it fast.
You're referring to "the hacker problem"? I've never played in a game where it was an issue. Then again, it probably has something to do with the fact that we're usually willing to split up.
Not quite. I don't have to cut anything out of Exalted 3, unless I want to. I did it because I'm used to doing it that way.
In fact, I started my short-lived column on TBP with explaining how to create NPCs on the fly (https://www.rpg.net/columns/tricksforgms/tricksforgms1.phtml) so you can bet I've been doing it for a while now:).
"Win it"? Who says I'm trying to? I would have approached it rather differently if I was. OPP aren't paying me, alas, so I'm not:p.
I'm discussing the game I play. If I grow bored with this discussion, I'm going to stop replying, and let other people use the thread to curse OPP and congratulate themselves on having "pushed me out":D.
I doubt their dicks are long enough to reach the ground, so I express doubt in your statement;).
I agree with it when taken non-literally, though.
That's why I'm not pissed. They said that, back in 2012, and I was listening. I can't blame them for them - I did know how heavy it's going to be before pledging.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?638117-Exalted-Third-Edition
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?639128-Exalted-3rd-edition-What-do-you-absolutely-not-want-to-see
Now, what they should have done is putting those facts on the KS page...but that's on them.
Opinions on that account obviously vary;). We'll see how strongly by the viability of the line. If people keep buying it, they're probably playing it. The guys that don't play it are the exceptions.
Now, if you ask me what it says about TBP that there are so many of the exceptions there, I'd shrug and say that it probably just says that people that don't play have more time for forums.
Yes, that's tiring...and I'm disregarding it, because I'm still using the a mix of the settings of all three editions. 3e was outvoted.
Actually, they do, if you describe them like they do. It's explicitly stated in the book. I've even quoted some of the relevant passages in this thread.
The reason it's stated as not existing is, I suspect, because they didn't want fans that can't understand the concept to wail and whine that "we can't stunt in this edition":D.
Absolutely, especially the bolded part! That's exactly why the players with hand-to-hand or weapons training in my group grasped the concept faster than the rest of them!
Totally true - but "initiative charge" is just a method of describing distracting the opponent and tying him to deal with your main weapon, freeing the other hand, I believe. Admittedly, I haven't considered it, though I've got in the background a "three-way war betweeen rival schools" where people trained in the Steel Devil from the book are clashing with a variant Steel Devil using a slender sword and a dagger and a group of military guys advocating the use of the spear and sword. (Admittedly, the third school tries to stay away - the other two groups are bravos trying to prove themselves, while these guys are mostly in the military. They also happen to be the best at it, due to practical experience, and have never lost a duel so far. The experience thing is also why they're trying to stay away, and are debating whether to admit publicly that one of the other two styles was invented first, which they don't believe for a second).
And yes, the mechanics are the same, except for allowed weapons. People have been killing each other over stupider things, as we all know;).
Man, just two questions.
I know you don't like the system, but if it said that withering and decisive are IC and not OOC, would it improve your opinion?
Also, if you can think of those ways, why don't you make them IC, even if you think* the rulebook disagrees?
*The rulebook actually says that making them IC is totally legit, as I quoted. But the perception among fans is that it says they're OOC. As I stated above, I suspect the ambiguity is there on purpose.
You suddenly make me glad that I have no crafters in my party!
You lost me at...pretty much the first word. Again, you're not going to win. Stop trying. It isn't cute in a Rudy way, it's pointless.
Quote from: Nexus;905860It would be one small improvement in a pile of garbage and another example of poor design choices that were sent through. If its that obvious to me and others that are house ruling you'd think the alleged geniuses working on it should have thought of it in three years.
To be fair: I suspect they just don't want issues with, ahem, less creative players:).
Also, I wouldn't call them "geniuses", geniuses shouldn't make so many PR blunders:D.
QuoteEven once that aspect is fixed there are other odd issues and problems (like charm effects based on the idea they're different) tied to it that still remain
Ahem, if you presume they are different, those are no longer a problem, right? I'm trying to get your perspective here - purely because my perspective is close enough, and yet we end up in a different place.
Quoteand entire combat system is just clunky slow and worse, dull. So why should I go out of my why to polish OP's turd for them especially if it would be only a tiny step towards making the system palatable.
(IMO, YMMV, etc etc)
If you find it dull, there's nothing to be done. I was just wondering how much of this is due to the combat system feeling non-intuitive to you;).
QuoteAnd I don't "think" the rule book says they're OOC. The rule book says there is no in setting difference between a Withering ans Decisive attacks.
That's contradicted by "you can explain it as an esoteric kata* setting up your enemy for the kill". So what do I hear when I read them both (and they're almost literally on the same page)?
"Sure, you can just say You Hit Them With Your Axe! Play it like you always did!" (They're
definitely not making Gary Gygax's mistake of "assuming their customers can shit unassisted", here - nor are they making the mistake of "upsetting their customer base by radical changes" that WotC made! In a way, that's bad game design, but a good business decision).
"You can also stunt it by describing it as you should! It's esoteric and shit!" (And flatter the guys who actually know what we mean so they don't make a ruckus! Seriously, the book has better PR than their whole KS campaign. I can only assume they used external specialists).
*'Cuz everything in Exalted is an esoteric kata, dontchaknow:D? But "setting the enemy up" is standard operating procedure in most styles I've practiced, and almost all that I've spoken with shared the same. Usually that is abstracted in the skill roll, but it doesn't have to be - and in fact it does make more sense when it isn't abstracted.
QuoteThe dice pools are calculated in a way that only makes sense if they are actual attempts to hurt the target.
Quite the opposite, in my experience. Bigger more damaging weapons set you up for that kill way faster. Now, the fact that they don't get a bonus on the Decisive...sucks, frankly. But I assume they mean it as a game balance mechanism.
QuoteI've read the section. This has been confirmed by others that have read the book including the people that wrote the damn rules repeatedly.
And those people are obviously completely honest and would never support a deliberate attempt to obfuscate, even if it makes the book more likely to be successful among a wider range of fans;)?
QuoteThe concession to the difference being in character is that you can stunt them as "maneuvering" or whatever if you want but even them there should be some concession to it being an attack such as a glancing hit the bounced off armor or inflicted "minor injury" or a parried/evade strike the sets your target up or grants some advantage but the character and anyone in setting sees it as a legitimate attempt to strike the target and injure them that, successful or not, happened to grant some benefit, planned or not.
Ahem, how do you think normal styles set you up? These are primary ways in the ones I know (except the "bouncing off armour", which is a primary way some GMs and players use to describe non-damaging attacks).
QuoteWhat you quoted above is a reason that they it makes sense for them to be IC not a statement that they are.
My reading is different, obviously.
But I can see why we differ.
QuoteThat's part of the problem and makes the final choice all the more bizarre. But maybe it'll be address in 3.5 in a few years.
If 2.5 was any indicator, probably it wouldn't be.
QuoteThere is no ambiguity aside from in your head and its applied Rule 0 fallacy to claim that because you can change it there isn't a problem.
Again, I pointed out why I think the design choice was made...
QuoteI know you've got a hard on for the combat system but at least admit there's some flaws.
Of course there are! Like the whole of the Crafting system...:D And I don't like the obfuscations, either.
(Keep in mind: I never said Ex3 is perfect, much as some people would love to interpret my words that way. What I said was that the claims it's unplayable, a stinking pile of manure, or the like, are either way overblown, or stupid. Probably depends on who's making said comment - if it's someone stupid, you don't need to look further...:D)
But "Has problems"=/=is unplayable", and that's my main point. Well, my other point is to discuss a system I'm playing. But there's preciously few people to discuss it with, so I'm largely skipping that one.
[QUOTE="Alderaan Crumbs;905875]You lost me at...pretty much the first word.[/QUOTE]
At "the", "two" or "systems":p? I would call that "not even trying to engage my argument".
QuoteAgain, you're not going to win. Stop trying. It isn't cute in a Rudy way, it's pointless.
You didn't get to the part of my post where I answered that, did you?
Tl;dr: I don't fucking care whether I "win", 'cuz OPP ain't paying me (alas...hey, OPP, I'm open to bribery;)!)
Clear?
The constant emoti nonsense makes you come across as an asshole thirteen year old.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;905932The constant emoti nonsense makes you come across as an asshole thirteen year old.
I work with texts for a living. This is a frigging forum
where I have rest from work, so it stays.
Alternately, pick one.
- Always glad when I look younger than I am:D.
- It's not like I care:p.
- I like it when people who can't look behind the surface skip my posts, it improves the signal-to-noise ratio;).
- I like stupid emotes the way I like stupid games, like, oh, pretending to be an elf:cool:!
- You can go where the Pundit would send you, except the expletive "cunt", which I dislike, is replaced with more expletives from more languages:rolleyes:.
If you want to randomize it, feel free to use a d5 on it, 'cuz you have d5s, right?
Quote from: AsenRG;905937I work with texts for a living. This is a frigging forum where I have rest from work, so it stays.
Alternately, pick one.
- Always glad when I look younger than I am:D.
- It's not like I care:p.
- I like it when people who can't look behind the surface skip my posts, it improves the signal-to-noise ratio;).
- I like stupid emotes the way I like stupid games, like, oh, pretending to be an elf:cool:!
- You can go where the Pundit would send you, except the expletive "cunt", which I dislike, is replaced with more expletives from more languages:rolleyes:.
If you want to randomize it, feel free to use a d5 on it, 'cuz you have d5s, right?
Don't be hostile. :) This is a safe space. ;) Use your words. :D
Seriously, though, it's all in fun, at least for me. It's pretty silly for anyone to take the opinions of others to seriously, but silly is fun! Exalted? Not so fun...:p
At least your sig is cool. :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;905947Don't be hostile. :)
On theRPGsite:D?
QuoteThis is a safe space. ;)
...you sure:)?
QuoteUse your words. :D
I'm speechless now!
QuoteSeriously, though, it's all in fun, at least for me. It's pretty silly for anyone to take the opinions of others to seriously, but silly is fun!
Yeah, that's what I was trying to explain...not much success;).
QuoteExalted? Not so fun...:p
I disagree. Exalted has provided me with more popcorn that any other game...
QuoteAt least your sig is cool. :)
Is that what they call it these days:p?
Oh, you mean the signature....never mind;)!
Quote from: AsenRG;905957On theRPGsite:D?
...you sure:)?
I'm speechless now!
Yeah, that's what I was trying to explain...not much success;).
I disagree. Exalted has provided me with more popcorn that any other game...
Is that what they call it these days:p?
Oh, you mean the signature....never mind;)!
Speechless? You? No! (Zing!)
And on a more serious note, yes, this is a safe space. There are a few examples to the contrary (depending on opinions), but that we can smack the shit out of each other without Big Brother Barney (a reference to TBP...cuz Barney's purple and well, alliteration!) dropping the hammer makes it so. I may not agree with you, but I applaud your conviction. I'd rather have the option of hitting "Ignore" than a dipshit mod making a choice for me. Besides, none of us have to engage, we choose to. Choice is freedom and that to me, is safety.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;905963Speechless? You? No! (Zing!)
And on a more serious note, yes, this is a safe space. There are a few examples to the contrary (depending on opinions), but that we can smack the shit out of each other without Big Brother Barney (a reference to TBP...cuz Barney's purple and well, alliteration!) dropping the hammer makes it so. I may not agree with you, but I applaud your conviction. I'd rather have the option of hitting "Ignore" than a dipshit mod making a choice for me. Besides, none of us have to engage, we choose to. Choice is freedom and that to me, is safety.
"Big Brother Barney" is almost as good as "The Banning Place". :D
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;906030"Big Brother Barney" is almost as good as "The Banning Place". :D
JG
The Banning Place sounds like worst Stephen King Novel ever :D
Quote from: Nexus;906033The Banning Place sounds like worst Stephen King Novel ever :D
It is.
jg
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;905963Speechless? You? No! (Zing!)
Rest assured it's not for long...;)
QuoteAnd on a more serious note, yes, this is a safe space. There are a few examples to the contrary (depending on opinions), but that we can smack the shit out of each other without Big Brother Barney (a reference to TBP...cuz Barney's purple and well, alliteration!) dropping the hammer makes it so. I may not agree with you, but I applaud your conviction. I'd rather have the option of hitting "Ignore" than a dipshit mod making a choice for me. Besides, none of us have to engage, we choose to. Choice is freedom and that to me, is safety.
I generally agree with you. I just want to note that your definition of safety, much as I wish it was the dominant one, isn't what most people mean when they use the word:D!
Quote from: AsenRG;906077Rest assured it's not for long...;)
I generally agree with you. I just want to note that your definition of safety, much as I wish it was the dominant one, isn't what most people mean when they use the word:D!
I can bend over here without fear of a huge, purple rod being shoved up my ass. To me, that's safety! :D
In all seriousness, forums are always safe. You can log off (or just not go there) and they can't touch you. I like that you and we can scream obscenities at each other, calm down and move on without some "caring" twat hounding one or both of us for speaking our minds. If that's not safety in freedom, I don't know what is.
Quote from: James Gillen;906030"Big Brother Barney" is almost as good as "The Banning Place". :D
JG
Thanks! Barney has always creeped me out, so...
To be honest, the one thing I prefer at rpg.net over here is the favor towards what I like. That said, I respect here
FAR more because of the people and climate, making it my preferred forum.
Quote from: The Sword Emperor;20227812Each type of Martial Arts is its own full Ability.
Therefore, Martial Arts (Snake Style) and Martial Arts (White Reaper) are completely separate.
Within each Martial Arts style, you purchase a Specialty. So if you want a specialty in "sweeping cuts" for Snake Style and for White Reaper, then you need to purchase that Specialty twice.
As for the breadth of the Specialty, it's similar to other Abilities. A Martial Artist with Snake Style could have a specialty in "Jabs" which would cover most attacks. One with White Reaper could have a Specialty in "Grimscythes" or "Battle Groups".
I guess I misread that. I thought each style you knew was a specialty not a completely new Ability as well. I think I like that even less than my misunderstanding.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;906209I can bend over here without fear a huge, purple rod being shoved up my ass. To me, that's safety! :D
A better endorsement we will never see.
JG
Quote from: Brand55;908222I thought I'd share this link that was posted on the Godbound thread over on rpg.net recently. It's one group talking about their experiences with Exalted 3rd and Godbound over the past year. At least one of the guys in the podcast isn't very nice to Holden, so it wouldn't surprise me if the original link gets removed.
http://atrusilk.podbean.com/e/exalted-offtopic-why-3rd-edition-failed-why-godbound-succeeded/ (http://atrusilk.podbean.com/e/exalted-offtopic-why-3rd-edition-failed-why-godbound-succeeded/)
I thought this would be of interest here as well. Thanks to Brand55 for posting it.
The fact that they are a fan of the social mechanics stuff made me cringe so hard... Whatever happened to the roleplaying aspect to an RPG?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;908287The fact that they are a fan of the social mechanics stuff made me cringe so hard... Whatever happened to the roleplaying aspect to an RPG?
Different strokes for different folks. For some, like me, a good set of mechanics adds to and facilitates the role playing aspects but that's a dead, withered and damn near fossilized horse. But overall I agree with much of what they said about the differences and issues between the two games. Even the thing I don't like in Godbound seem much less grating and immovable.
They seemed to like the Withering and Decisive systems for combat. That thing still makes me teeth itch. But more from because of implementation than the basic premise.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;908287The fact that they are a fan of the social mechanics stuff made me cringe so hard... Whatever happened to the roleplaying aspect to an RPG?
I said the same thing in the godbound thread.
Sorcerous Working are a neat idea. I have to give them that. Nice way to codify "A wizard did it".
Edit: And I think that guy will find out he's the one screaming into the wind at this point.
Quote from: Snowman0147;908292I said the same thing in the godbound thread.
And I'm a terrible speaker and have no real life charisma, but the problem I have with social mechanics, you have to restrict to a bunch of codified choices, but real negotiations are much more nuanced. It seems to be just another mind control mechanic, especially given that this is Exalted.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;908301And I'm a terrible speaker and have no real life charisma, but the problem I have with social mechanics, you have to restrict to a bunch of codified choices, but real negotiations are much more nuanced. It seems to be just another mind control mechanic, especially given that this is Exalted.
Could you guys take this to another thread?
Yeah, social systems very much tend to be hit or miss depending on the group. Some love 'em, some have no use for them. My own group gets by just fine through roleplaying with the occasional skill role, with social conflicts (the simple system Savage Worlds uses) reserved for really important stuff. But some people get into it a lot more than we do. It's much like how some groups are happy to get through combat as quickly as possible while others want every shift and blow to be all part of a greater, carefully worked out strategy.
For me, probably the most important part of the podcast was the way that group used to have to slog through combat, constantly checking dozens of Charms and keeping track of so many different things. That was easily my biggest concern with Exalted 3e's system when I first started looking it over.
I've tried to penetrate the book, but my eyes glaze after a few pages, what are 'sorcerous workings'?
Quote from: Brand55;908303Yeah, social systems very much tend to be hit or miss depending on the group. Some love 'em, some have no use for them. My own group gets by just fine through roleplaying with the occasional skill role, with social conflicts (the simple system Savage Worlds uses) reserved for really important stuff. But some people get into it a lot more than we do. It's much like how some groups are happy to get through combat as quickly as possible while others want every shift and blow to be all part of a greater, carefully worked out strategy.
Yeah, like I mentiones in the Godbound thread some groups don't roll for physical combat unless either ever or unless they feel its important. Its very much a preference thing.
QuoteFor me, probably the most important part of the podcast was the way that group used to have to slog through combat, constantly checking dozens of Charms and keeping track of so many different things. That was easily my biggest concern with Exalted 3e's system when I first started looking it over.
That was how the small test combat I ran felt too. I was wondering if it was just lack of familiarity but seems like it wasn't.
Basically, a sorceror can spend a number of weeks/months/years to perform a magical feat that isn't a spell. A working can be anything from warding a field against pests or a house against ghosts to embedding sorcerous knowledge and a path of initiation into the fundamental structure of Creation. There are three tiers, three levels within each tier, and three levels of what's called "finesse." Finesse means how much control the player has over the details of how the working does what it does. The higher the circle and the higher the ambition, the more successes you need. The higher the finesse, the higher the difficulty on the extended roll. Adding things like working in a manse, having good tools, assistants, taking lots of time and so on all buy you extra rolls.
Workings are normally permanent, or at least of indefinite duration. You can't dispel them or unwork them. It's possible to counter them with opposed workings, but this can get really weird. A road both blessed and cursed might result in horses running off, but local elementals agree to take their place. Or the campsite comes under attack from hordes of buzzing insects, which would make sleep impossible were they not kept off by a strong wind that rises to keep them away. Overall, the journey's no more difficult or easy than usual, but it's certainly much, much weirder.
Quote from: Whitewings;908307Basically, a sorceror can spend a number of weeks/months/years to perform a magical feat that isn't a spell. A working can be anything from warding a field against pests or a house against ghosts to embedding sorcerous knowledge and a path of initiation into the fundamental structure of Creation. There are three tiers, three levels within each tier, and three levels of what's called "finesse." Finesse means how much control the player has over the details of how the working does what it does. The higher the circle and the higher the ambition, the more successes you need. The higher the finesse, the higher the difficulty on the extended roll. Adding things like working in a manse, having good tools, assistants, taking lots of time and so on all buy you extra rolls.
Workings are normally permanent, or at least of indefinite duration. You can't dispel them or unwork them. It's possible to counter them with opposed workings, but this can get really weird. A road both blessed and cursed might result in horses running off, but local elementals agree to take their place. Or the campsite comes under attack from hordes of buzzing insects, which would make sleep impossible were they not kept off by a strong wind that rises to keep them away. Overall, the journey's no more difficult or easy than usual, but it's certainly much, much weirder.
So it's mainly an NPC thing?
Not at all. I have a character who, in her near future, will take a few weeks to spin sunlight and moonlight into thread from which to make gowns and robes for her wedding: gowns for herself and her bridesmaid, robes for the groom and the groomsman. She'll then donate them to the village so other couples can use them.
Low level workings can be done in as little as a single week, if you're not fussy about the details. Or even if you are, if you're Exalted.
So it's got no real mechanical value other than how the PC spends their downtime? There's no immediate application, like in combat or a stressful situation? Which makes me wonder why there'd need to be any rules for it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;908330So it's got no real mechanical value other than how the PC spends their downtime? There's no immediate application, like in combat or a stressful situation? Which makes me wonder why there'd need to be any rules for it.
Because creating things magical healing springs, zone of enhanced fertility, invisible floating islands, warding areas against undead or spirits, curing permanent disabilities (missing limbs, blindness, etc) or making enhanced beings (or races at high levels) can be useful and have impact, even major impact on the setting and the PCs exploits such as future combats and stressful situation. In a sense its Ex3 version of spending Influence and Dominion but more skill and ability based.
It does seem like they don't explore the concept enough. Since sorcery is open to mortals and mortal sorcerers while rather rare are more common than Exalted and would have more use for smaller Workings There'd be more or them fixing or at least mitigating some of "lesser" issues around Creation. Like permanently and truly changing someone's gender would be a relatively minor Working well within reach of mortal sorcerers (glances at Prince Diamond*)
Mechnically, seems like the rules and structure of Sorcerous Workings could have been reskinned to work for construction artifacts, manses, more mundane political and bureaucratic projects, etc, pretty easily too and cut down on some of the myriad rules or provided some in areas they're lacking like Bureaucracy. I think someone already home brewed artifact construct from them.
*In fairness they'be given their reasoning behind her not doing this. If its solid or not is up to the individual.
Quote from: Nexus;908332Because creating things magical healing springs, zone of enhanced fertility, invisible floating islands, warding areas against undead or spirits, curing permanent disabilities (missing limbs, blindness, etc) or making enhanced beings (or races at high levels) can be useful and have impact, even major impact on the setting and the PCs exploits such as future combats and stressful situation. In a sense its Ex3 version of spending Influence and Dominion but more skill and ability based.
It does seem like they don't explore the concept enough. Since sorcery is open to mortals and mortal sorcerers while rather rare are more common than Exalted and would have more use for smaller Workings There'd be more or them fixing or at least mitigating some of "lesser" issues around Creation. Like permanently and truly changing someone's gender would be a relatively minor Working well within reach of mortal sorcerers (glances at Prince Diamond*)
Mechnically, seems like the rules and structure of Sorcerous Workings could have been reskinned to work for construction artifacts, manses, more mundane political and bureaucratic projects, etc, pretty easily too and cut down on some of the myriad rules or provided some in areas they're lacking like Bureaucracy. I think someone already home brewed artifact construct from them.
*In fairness they'be given their reasoning behind her not doing this. If its solid or not is up to the individual.
I don't know that I'd use Prince Diamond as an example, since it's more of a cultural thing than a mental thing with him I think. That said, if sorcerous workings could change gender, or even species, and is doable by a mortal sorcerer, the Deneth culture seems more pointless.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;908365I don't know that I'd use Prince Diamond as an example, since it's more of a cultural thing than a mental thing with him I think. That said, if sorcerous workings could change gender, or even species, and is doable by a mortal sorcerer, the Deneth culture seems more pointless.
A sex change is within the ability of an unExalted sorceror, but it would be quite expensive, about the equivalent of $5,000 in modern terms, the rituals would take an entire month, and the waiting list would be long because most sorcerors are very busy people. Also, Dereth is mostly a social custom; Diamond is unusual in being genuinely transexual. Taken together, these provide a good explanation for her still being a her, but still don't explain why she doesn't seem at all interested in becoming a he.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;908365I don't know that I'd use Prince Diamond as an example, since it's more of a cultural thing than a mental thing with him I think. That said, if sorcerous workings could change gender, or even species, and is doable by a mortal sorcerer, the Deneth culture seems more pointless.
I mention Prince Diamond because she's tied up in this.
Its complicated and not just in setting. The Dereth were originally presented as a kind of cultural safety valve, something for individuals that wanted to avoid the strong gender based roles in the southern nomad's culture. They could put on the gray (originally Dereth wore gray veils as a variant on common practice of wearing veils in the society) and could take on the opposite gender role. They weren't physically considered the opposite gender, dereth men were male, dereath women were female but acting as their roles in society and were treated as such, could court and marry, etc. Homosexual sometimes used the option as it allowed for marriage and formation of a household. Its a logical extrapolation that some dereth would be transgendered if that's a state the exists in Creation's version of humanity.
Prince Diamond has been declared to be such by the developers (though they kind of hemmed and hawed about it at first). She feels she's male. Now in the current interpretation of the dereth the claim is they feel they are the opposite gender in entirety not just role wise. Gender is entirely cultural for them. So Prince Diamond has no desire to change her sex because she doesn't need too. She is a man just one that happens to have a vagina, uterus and breasts. Thing is that came across as a late change, essentially an ass pull that came up when someone asked why Prince Diamond hadn't or wasn't seeking to change her sex* that rewrote the concept of dereth because the impact of Workings hadn't been taken into account among other things. At least that's what I've been able to piece together from all the dodgy wiggle wording when it first came up.
Cliff notes version: Dereth weren't originally a "transexual" concept as we'd understand them, just a possible route for a character of that nature to take in that society. Now apparently they've been adapted as such to the point they wouldn't sex change since their idea of gender is totally cultural.
Really short version: I brought up Diamond more because I consider her a bit of ill considered pandering related to the topic than as a good candidate for gender reassignment via Sorcerous Working. :)
*The Dobsian reason is that the writers were afraid providing an "easy" solution would trivialize the issue of Transgenderism and put off a segment of their audience. Which did come up when Prince Diamond's nature first came out and the question was asked. Doing away with a gray veil tradition (now Dereth have to wear a piece of gray clothing, visibly I presume) had a similar reason, its potentially insulting.
Quote from: Whitewings;908366A sex change is within the ability of an unExalted sorceror, but it would be quite expensive, about the equivalent of $5,000 in modern terms, the rituals would take an entire month, and the waiting list would be long because most sorcerors are very busy people. Also, Dereth is mostly a social custom; Diamond is unusual in being genuinely transexual. Taken together, these provide a good explanation for her still being a her, but still don't explain why she doesn't seem at all interested in becoming a he.
Its not a matter of "still" its the "is always going to be". Diamond is described as widely traveled and not exactly hard up. It wouldn't be beyond her means as a mortal and even less so as an Exalt, particularly an Eclipse who can deal directly with spirit world which gives even more access to being with the power to do what would be required. If the sig character are a Circle. One of them IS a sorcerer.
Its also flaky,IMO, the Diamond, an Eclipse, supposedly the diplomat and traveler caste, used to the strange and exotic gets violent when others don't grasp her cultures rather unusual viewpoint and have the audacity to assume that someone with breasts and female genitals is a woman. Annoyance, rolling her eyes at the backwards barbarians, sure, but murderous rage and martial challenges? Not a good mindset for a diplomat unless the refusal mandated some denial or deprivation. She's not a Dothraki.
Re: The Ex3 vs Godbound podcast
One thing I strongly agreed with is how Ex3 feels like houserules and homebrew as far as setting and mechanics go. It was a feeling I couldn't really nail down until I heard it articulated but clicked. It explains some of the attitude demonstrated by Holden and Morke and the strong appeal it has with some of the fanbase that happen to share their outlook.
Quote from: Nexus;908374Re: The Ex3 vs Godbound podcast
One thing I strongly agreed with is how Ex3 feels like houserules and homebrew as far as setting and mechanics go. It was a feeling I couldn't really nail down until I heard it articulated but clicked. It explains some of the attitude demonstrated by Holden and Morke and the strong appeal it has with some of the fanbase that happen to share their outlook.
Yeah, and it's certainly true since we're talking about developers who started out as fans and were brought in later. But slow, ultra high-crunch Exalted is official and not likely to change any time soon, if ever. I've made my peace with the fact that Exalted is just never going to have an official system that I'm going to want to run again.
Oh, and I was pleased to hear another fan of the Savant and Sorcerer cover. I love that thing. Few covers have ever upset so many prudish fans.
Quote from: Brand55;908403Oh, and I was pleased to hear another fan of the Savant and Sorcerer cover. I love that thing. Few covers have ever upset so many prudish fans.
Sexy is cool, unless you're an SJW. What's funny is that titties and camel toes are scary but spells that rip your soul screaming from your body in unending agony are fine. Shredding the skin off a human being? Awesome! Cleaving mortal into pieces? Even better! Wait...are those
NIPPLES?! *head explodes*
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908432Sexy is cool, unless you're an SJW. What's funny is that titties and camel toes are scary but spells that rip your soul screaming from your body in unending agony are fine. Shredding the skin off a human being? Awesome! Cleaving mortal into pieces? Even better! Wait...are those NIPPLES?! *head explodes*
I ALSO like the Savant and Sorcerer cover.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;908441I ALSO like the Savant and Sorcerer cover.
Quote from: Brand55;908403Yeah, and it's certainly true since we're talking about developers who started out as fans and were brought in later. But slow, ultra high-crunch Exalted is official and not likely to change any time soon, if ever. I've made my peace with the fact that Exalted is just never going to have an official system that I'm going to want to run again.
Oh, and I was pleased to hear another fan of the Savant and Sorcerer cover. I love that thing. Few covers have ever upset so many prudish fans.
Whew. I thought I might be the only person aside from the artist that liked it. The weird part was the fans were asking for HKT to do an Exalted piece while apparently never having seen his work before. The cover was very much in line with much of his other work. But they were shocked, SHOCKED and appalled I tell you by the final product. I really wonder was it that unpopular or where allot of people shamed into silence or just jumped on another internet hate train once it got rolling. Or maybe I just have bad taste. :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908432Sexy is cool, unless you're an SJW. What's funny is that titties and camel toes are scary but spells that rip your soul screaming from your body in unending agony are fine. Shredding the skin off a human being? Awesome! Cleaving mortal into pieces? Even better! Wait...are those NIPPLES?! *head explodes*
The reaction to that cover is one of the shitstorms that has me convinced that the ostensible gaming community online has a stick very far up its collective backside. But its not atypical for the US. Violence and gore okay, nudity or sex: OUTRAGE!
Hell considering the Black and White Treatise had a two page spread picture of The Lover Clad in Raiment of Tears that had her entire ass showing its hardly like it was only scantily clad sorceress in Exalted.
Any one have any opinion on the new take on the Immaculate Order?
Quote from: Nexus;908457Any one have any opinion on the new take on the Immaculate Order?
Which is?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;908466Which is?
I was referring to the current line of discussion on the main rpg.net thread. Shouldn't have assumed people were following it. I'll dig up the relevant posts to keep things accurate. But it'll take some time.
Long story short, the new official line is that the savants and higher ups in the Immaculate Order (and not just the siddies behind it) knew all along that the whole "Solars are anathema sun-stealing demons" is bullshit, but they still feed the tale to the unwashed masses because the truth ("Solars were architect of a great era but their power got them crazy so we shall not allow them to rise again") would be too hard to understand for the peasants.
Frankly I don't see the big deal. Exalted "official canon" is so fucked up by now that if you want any decent amount of coherency you need to rewrite major parts of it anyway; this is a minor blip at most.
Here ya go.
Like most things Exalted this edition, its long and immense
Quote from: Aquillion;20261908My reading of it is that it's like how real-world Evangelical Christianity approaches some of the contradictions between the popular version of their faith and what's written in the bible, especially when it comes to insisting on eg. everything there being literally true and written by the hand of god... any actual religious scholar knows that they have to take a slightly more nuanced approach.
There's basically a sort of tiered approach to understanding it. The version of history that most peasants learn is intended to be easy to understand and digest and to get across the main political message, even if it contradicts history. No mention of the term Solar Exalted, the Anathema are demons who ruled for a while and then got killed when the Immaculate Dragons, who rule Heaven, decided to empower the Terrestrials to stop them, everyone hated them because they were oppressive tyrants, etc. This version also blurs the Primordial War and the Usurpation into one event (with maybe a short period of time between them when the Anathema-demons managed to rule people without their demon overlords or something.)
Then you have a more nuanced version intended for (and developed by) scholars who have a clearer view of the actual First Age. This one is written more like an Immaculate apologia, from a somewhat defensive perspective, intended to answer the issues scholars run into when encountering books or gods who contradict the "peasant" version. It's also something they're a bit careful about talking about in public, since it involves contradiction the "popular" version on a few points and could get you into arguments or imperil your academic career if you talk about it to the wrong person - the really good scholars in the Realm know eg. just how widespread the worship of the UCS used to be or how Anathema clearly and obviously (at least publicly) revered him rather than demons, or would know that the Primordial War and the Usurpation were clearly-distinct events separated by a significant gap in time, or would know that the Immaculate Dragons have never ruled Heaven, and if you wanted to write a really good treatise that other scholars would take seriously, you'd have to acknowledge these things; but they're also smart enough that they wouldn't talk about it in public.
Generally they'd have an accurate view of the broad outline of the First Age and the Usurpation, but they'd still write from an Immaculate perspective. Some of them would still hold to the fact that the Anathema used stolen power (and that their fealty to the sun was a ruse), with whatever contortions necessary to support this; others would basically recognize that Anathema were once "legitimate" Exalted, but would argue that they were corrupted and went mad (which is, well, basically accurate.)
But it's important to recognize that the political power of the Realm allows it to enforce a view of history even if its scholars know better. The version of the Immaculate Faith that most scholars at the Heptagram hold to (if they still hold to any at all, which isn't, of course, a given) is radically different from what most peasants are taught, and those scholars, if they've managed to build a career at the Heptagram and were able to get tenure or whatever it has, probably know enough about the political realities of their world that they're not going to push things in public. There are things you can say and can't say if you want your academic career to say on track, and any competent scholar of history in the Realm is going to understand this.
(Again, I feel Evangelical Christianity is a good example here - many of the things it says about the their religion and the Bible at a pop-culture level are blatantly and easily falsifiable by any competent scholar of biblical history. Like, not a matter of belief or disbelief, it's just blatantly wrong in the sense that it contradicts the text and everything we know about it, and the teachers at Evangelical colleges know this perfectly well. They also know that there are some things that, if they say them, will cost them their jobs and get them stamped as heretical, so they don't. For instance, when the president of your college says that all of the apostles were first-hand accounts of Jesus' life, you smile and nod and don't say anything about the Synoptic Problem or the real-world timeframe they were probably written in. This doesn't mean, note, that those scholars are not believers; they just have to take a somewhat more nuanced view on some aspects of their faith in order to incorporate facts that the political establishment finds it easier to ignore for the sake of producing an easily-palatable story.)
Quote from: Holden;20261948Pop-culture-level Immaculate theology probably doesn't talk about the origins of Creation at all, and I imagine most peasants, if you pressed them on the point, would guess that the Elemental Dragons made the world-- they've simply never received any religious instruction on the subject. "In the beginning" isn't a central phrase in the Immaculate Philosophy. Otherwise, yeah, this is on point.
Addendum: Actual complete religious non-adherence is pretty rare in the Realm, since the Philosophy's claims about reincarnation and worthiness of the soul are a) very flattering to the Dragon-Blooded, b) unverifiable, and thus also c) unfalsifiable. Heptagram students are pretty well-prepared to handle ideas like "it turns out the Anathema weren't evil 24 hours of the day, 7 days a week," since they're studying demonology at that school and it doesn't take long to figure out that actual genuine demons are sometimes nice, generous, open-hearted, or even well-intentioned in some kind of screwed up way, or that this doesn't render them any less dangerous. The most common form of theistic non-adherence you're going to run into are scholars who conclude that while the Elemental Dragons are certainly real, transcendental beings, and the central axis of Creation's cosmology, the Immaculate Dragons are probably historical fictions cobbled together from the exploits of various real heroes to embody the virtues of the Elemental Dragons (or, that if they were real figures, they have gotten a lot of apocryphal clutter stuck onto them post-hoc and may not have actually been mortal incarnations of the Elemental Dragons to any greater degree than any other Dragon-Blooded is).
Quote from: Jürgen Hubert;20261965So... basically some Anathema might be described as Lucifer Morningstar? With good intentions causing ruin in the end, because of the source of their powers?
Because that would fit very well with observed evidence, and would allow members of the Wyld Hunt to have pity with individual Anathema without being deterred from their duty.
Quote from: CowboyEnergy;20261977I have heard that Anathema are described as not necessarily always being evil, but being innately selfish. Therefore, even if they don't intend to actually cause harm, their hubris against the natural and rightful order will inevitably manifest itself, and with their incredible powers cause untold misery. Therefore, they must be killed for the greater good. That's also why you need to kill the Anathema even if he or she seems to be doing good things. Yes, they might be good now, but eventually their hubris will manifest.
Quote from: Holden;20262211The Immaculate Philosophy posits rebellion against the natural and rightful order as the fundamental root of all evil and discord, so it's not really a distinction they'd appreciate or articulate.
Once upon a time, the Solar Exalted became the rulers of the world through canny application of their sheer power and their overwhelming charisma, displacing the Dragon-Blooded who, as spiritually elevated individuals who earned that position through lifetimes of wisdom rather than a single moment of reckless heroism, should rightly have held it. And to their shame, many Dragon-Blooded acceded to this state of affairs, having been won over by the radiant glory of the Solars. In accordance to their nature, the Solars tamed the wild Lunar Exalted, and made an accord of all the various heroes of humanity, and raised up a great and shining age-- but because it all grew out of that fundamental perversion of the natural order of the cosmos, it ultimately bore poisoned fruit and grew corrupt and terrible, and had to be burned down that order could be restored.
There's not really a distinct point in there where the Solars "grew corrupt," so much as that their abundance of power drives them to step out of their place in the world, calls them to chase glory at any cost-- and this brings sorrow to everyone, because that is, in the understanding of Immaculate thought, a wicked act.
Quote from: Holden;20262246This sounds about right, yes. Although keep two things in mind:
Immaculate dogma posits Dragon-Blooded as spiritually elevated, but in no way morally infallible. The Immaculate Dragons stand as exemplars specifically to curb the endemic misbehaviors of the Dragon-Blooded-- to drive Air Aspects to action rather than contemplation, and to caution Fire Aspects to contemplation before rushing to action, and so forth. A core tenet of the Immaculate Philosophy is that a Dragon-Blooded can fuck up his karma badly enough to demote himself in the next life through his own deeds-- certainly he can, nothing stops him from doing this-- but that a mortal cannot pollute their spiritual well-being by obeying one of the Terrestrial Exalted, even if that Exalt is firmly in the wrong. This is one of the reasons the Order so abhors peasant rebellions, yet usually comes in on the side of the peasants. That's a sign that some Exalt somewhere is behaving so abhorrently that he's ruining the spiritual well-being of those in his care by making obedience to his dictates unendurable. At that point, the DB in charge of the region has a very high likelihood of being murdered in the street by enraged monks. None of this points to a religion that has any delusions about the fallibility of its bodhisattva rulers.
That tendency toward cynicism is tempered (not erased, but tempered) by the lived experience of Exaltation. Plenty of real-world groups have spun up a great line of bullshit about the blessings they enjoy on account of their innate superiority-- the poor bastards rooked into the Boxer Rebellion were told their righteousness would protect them from British firearms-- but each and every Dragon-Blooded can feel a direct connection between their blood and Essence and the fundamental substance of the world around them. When an Air Aspect breathes, he feels the trade winds drawn into his lungs, and has a momentary connection to Creation itself. (Never mind all the cool magic shit they can do.) They are very receptive to being told that they are the Princes of the Earth, because that's what Exaltation as a Dragon-Blooded feels like.
Quote from: Holden;20262314These are the parts of the Immaculate Philosophy that Chejop Kejak and some other Sidereals just completely made up in a meeting one day:
• The Elemental Dragons are transcendental beings, rather than "just" being extremely powerful spirits.
• There is a natural hierarchy to the cosmos, and souls are judged and assigned to their next life based on excellence within the role they were born in during their current life.
• Dragon-Blooded sit at the top of this hierarchy of reincarnation, and birth as a Dragon-Blooded is a reward for many lifetimes of excellence and diligence. This makes them the rightful rulers of the world.
• Dragon-Blooded who achieve perfect righteousness and wisdom as rulers of the world merge with the Elemental Dragons upon death, transcending the world to become part of something indescribably grand beyond it.
• The Elemental Dragons incarnated themselves as flesh-and-blood, Dragon-Blooded heroes during the uprising against the Solar Exalted, and demonstrated the kind of righteous behavior that Dragon-Blooded need to strive to emulate in order to become one with them.
• The Solar and Lunar Exalted are inevitably destructive forces in the world if left to their own devices. (Kind of. Kejak would argue this is functionally true, if not ontologically true. The Gold Faction disagrees.)
All of those items are just some shit Sidereals made up. The rest of the Philosophy is basically either elaborations on those points, or re-contextualization of society and history in light of those false axioms (such as their policy on Exigents).
Quote from: Luca;908490Long story short, the new official line is that the savants and higher ups in the Immaculate Order (and not just the siddies behind it) knew all along that the whole "Solars are anathema sun-stealing demons" is bullshit, but they still feed the tale to the unwashed masses because the truth ("Solars were architect of a great era but their power got them crazy so we shall not allow them to rise again") would be too hard to understand for the peasants.
Frankly I don't see the big deal. Exalted "official canon" is so fucked up by now that if you want any decent amount of coherency you need to rewrite major parts of it anyway; this is a minor blip at most.
Given how the Usurpation is being framed this edition, at least in the core its more or less correct at least as far as Solars go. Every one of the First Age Solars either became a fucked up mustache twirling monster or the (apparently infallible) Sidereal hoodoo predicted they unavoidably would. So the Usurpation was bitter but heroic necessity not a possibly hasty choice possibly fueled by a variety of influences.
I guess as far as current characters go it mostly makes it harder to try and reason with the IO faithful. You can be Mother Theresa meets Ghandi but you'll go bad "someday" so best gank you now.
Allot of seems to tie into how the new feeling almost embarrassment over the high kicking epic "over the top" aspects of earlier editions or a "clever and sophisticated" attempt to subvert silly notions of heroism and adventure because the best the can aimed for a mediocre, muddled world of "realistic" dark grays. Bucking the system brings trouble, trying to improve things brings trouble so that current status quo is near the best of all possible worlds, etc etc.
Eh, but Luca calls it. The canon material is such a grand clusterfuck at this point that reading any coherency into it is virtually a fool's errand.
If someone decided to produce a comedy about Creation, I'd focus on a group of Sidereals running around Heaven and Creation desperately trying to fix things that aren't broken.
Quote from: Nexus;908494Here ya go.
Like most things Exalted this edition, its long and immense
I always find it funny how when casting aspersions of contradictions or radical belief in religion, Christianity is the SJW's go-to, not Islam. I'm a Christian and full-well realize that crazy is crazy and that it can fuck up a blow job from Traci Lords, but damn if the Left isn't living in a hole of ignorance when it comes to using real-world religions in the negative.
Oh, Rich and all his little sycophants can eat blood-covered shit.
Most importantly, when the fuck do these asshats find time to play the game?! They post thesis after thesis about what the color of a magi-monk's nipples rings mean to the post-war economy of Victimville and the word "ravage" or a bit of side-boob sends them into orbit. Can you imagine the tear-streaming hippie-tangents at their tables? Holy fuck, people! These turds are such a scourge to...anything.
nexus, I applaud you for wading through so much digital vomit. I suggest you watch Teletubbies or play Pokemón Go in traffic with your eyes closed as a safer use of time. You sir, are both patient and brave.
Quote from: Whitewings;908519If someone decided to produce a comedy about Creation, I'd focus on a group of Sidereals running around Heaven and Creation desperately trying to fix things that aren't broken.
So, pretty much the government...
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908537I always find it funny how when casting aspersions of contradictions or radical belief in religion, Christianity is the SJW's go-to, not Islam. I'm a Christian and full-well realize that crazy is crazy and that it can fuck up a blow job from Traci Lords, but damn if the Left isn't living in a hole of ignorance when it comes to using real-world religions in the negative.
Oh, Rich and all his little sycophants can eat blood-covered shit.
No, this really does strike me as parallel to Christianity, in particular all the theological debates that developed immediately before and after the Nicene Creed. If anything, Islam has the opposite issue: Because it was never that formularized and bureaucratized, any thug can say "this is Islam" and it'd be hard to contradict him because it's not like there's an official body that can say, "no you're wrong."
QuoteMost importantly, when the fuck do these asshats find time to play the game?! They post thesis after thesis about what the color of a magi-monk's nipples rings mean to the post-war economy of Victimville and the word "ravage" or a bit of side-boob sends them into orbit. Can you imagine the tear-streaming hippie-tangents at their tables? Holy fuck, people! These turds are such a scourge to...anything.
I think we're agreed there.
JG
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908538So, pretty much the government...
I confess, one of my inspirations was the British series
Yes, Minister.
The whole thing along with other aspects of the revised setting serves to reinforce my feeling that its a setting about being demigod heroes written by people that don't believe in heroism and may in fact be innately corrupt. Or at least uselesse so the game's mood is like some kind of historical sim with some flashy special effects but the mood that gray, boring and banal world is the best. That's fine for those that enjoy it but its not what expected or wanted out of the game.
I'm not sure what the deal is heaping more crap on the Solars. It brings to mind setting like Hunter: The Reckoning and Aberrant where the big surprise was that you were playing the nominal bad guys if you played the core characters. No big surprise in hindsight. ST has always been about playing monsters but again, not what I expected or wanted. At this point I wish they'd have just gone with what it seems was really wanted and gone with DB as the central characters. It felt increasingly like that since a point in 1st.
Something I like about Godbound is that it doesn't do these things. There's a setting and its grim but its presented as something you make better as a PC, if you want or bend to your will if you're so inclined not a precious darling where nothing major can be changed or any changes you make will be swept away in the tides of history like sand castes in a hurricane because that would be "unrealistic" Godbound doesn't preach, doesn't make you feel childish for wanting to actually be a hero or that the setting is there a unchanging set piece to marvel at but not touch.
I think I'd rather make my own setting (Being a cripple means I have plenty of time, too much of it sometimes) and run it in my Superhero Game of Choice.
What a monumental cock-up 3e turned out to be.
Quote from: James Gillen;908553No, this really does strike me as parallel to Christianity, in particular all the theological debates that developed immediately before and after the Nicene Creed. If anything, Islam has the opposite issue: Because it was never that formularized and bureaucratized, any thug can say "this is Islam" and it'd be hard to contradict him because it's not like there's an official body that can say, "no you're wrong."
I think we're agreed there.
JG
I can see that, although I think I can be forgiven for any assumptions as to how they (SJWs) think. It's not that I don't welcome criticism or realize that Christianity isn't without faults, it's that SJWs have this ignorant fear (or whatever the fuck it is) about seeing the world as it is. It's become so hard for me to wade into their pool of shit to find nuggets of truth/honesty.
Quote from: Nexus;908571The whole thing along with other aspects of the revised setting serves to reinforce my feeling that its a setting about being demigod heroes written by people that don't believe in heroism and may in fact be innately corrupt. Or at least uselesse so the game's mood is like some kind of historical sim with some flashy special effects but the mood that gray, boring and banal world is the best. That's fine for those that enjoy it but its not what expected or wanted out of the game.
I'm not sure what the deal is heaping more crap on the Solars. It brings to mind setting like Hunter: The Reckoning and Aberrant where the big surprise was that you were playing the nominal bad guys if you played the core characters. No big surprise in hindsight. ST has always been about playing monsters but again, not what I expected or wanted. At this point I wish they'd have just gone with what it seems was really wanted and gone with DB as the central characters. It felt increasingly like that since a point in 1st.
Something I like about Godbound is that it doesn't do these things. There's a setting and its grim but its presented as something you make better as a PC, if you want or bend to your will if you're so inclined not a precious darling where nothing major can be changed or any changes you make will be swept away in the tides of history like sand castes in a hurricane because that would be "unrealistic" Godbound doesn't preach, doesn't make you feel childish for wanting to actually be a hero or that the setting is there a unchanging set piece to marvel at but not touch.
The WW/OPP "monsterisms" work well in the WoD, however having it forced into anything they make comes off as stupid. Of course, look at their real-world views on power (or their perception of power); it's bad and if you
do have it, it better be for the benefit of others, or else. That you suffer simply
because you have power (unless you're what they view as good) is so arrogant. Of
course you should better the world if you have power and wealth. Even if you're weak and poor you should strive to leave the world a better place. However, an inherent punishment levied on enlightened self-interest reeks of the typical views Rich & Friends are so fond of.
From a gaming point-of-view it's obnoxious corralling that hampers play.
Godbound and
Gods of the Fall don't do this and both...from what I've experienced...handle divine characters very well. One or the other may not be your thing (in either setting or system) but neither: A) force a way of thinking, B) have overly-complicated systems that don't handle the setting well, or C) were made by complete assholes (in fact both were made by very helpful, creative and kick-ass people).
Quote from: Nexus;908571At this point I wish they'd have just gone with what it seems was really wanted and gone with DB as the central characters. It felt increasingly like that since a point in 1st.
While you and i share some of the misgivings about Exalted and the people behind it, i very much disagree with this...all of it. Exalted was, since 1st Ed., about the Solars. And i really hope it will ever be. Because if they change that as well then they as well can rename the whole game because then it surely is no longer Exalted at all. Sure, DBs would make a good central splat as well...but that is beside the point. And i was never under the impression that the official stance on Exalted was what you describe. Not at all.
As an aside - i also liked the Savant & Sorcerer cover. Sure it was over the top and kind of an unnatural angle bla bla bla...but it's a cover for a game book, not a painting for the museum of anatomically correct art. Also, and that is what i find hilarious about the shit-storm around this cover...there was always sexy art in Exalted (and sexy is putting it mildly). Also, all the assholes who went wild about the S&S cover are now the exact same ones that congratulate Exalted for the "art" piece about Volfer's (not sure i spelled that right...the new signature dawn dude) crotch shot. Talk about double standards... . Fucking hypocrites, all of them.
Quote from: Anglachel;908600While you and i share some of the misgivings about Exalted and the people behind it, i very much disagree with this...all of it. Exalted was, since 1st Ed., about the Solars.
When Exalted was first being developed, the Dragonblooded were the central splat. That was changed fairly late in the game, ostensibly to avoid the feeling of power creep since DB were supposed to be the weakest. And there was some thought given to how you'd need to cram allot more setting into the core book to set up the Dragonblooded (The Realm and Lookshy in more detail at a minimum).
I'm not frustrated because I prefer the Dragonblooded, not at all. If they had been the core splat I doubt I would have looked twice at the game. They bore me as more of the same stuff WW/ST has been doing for years: clans of politically scheming, socially incestuous "monsters" engaging in patty politics and supposedly near the bottom of the totem pole. Except with elemental powers instead of fur or fangs. The Solars were at least promised something different. But it felt like they started getting the shaft more and more. Nerfed, fans of other groups bitching if they're alleged superior power was even actually demonstrated instead of being an Informed Ability because it wasn't "fair" or was "deprotagonizing" * and the associated noise. And the writers and devs seemed to go along with it all, likely in part because as they so often do writing chores were farmed out to fanbase so it the inmates started running the asylum. I simply find the lip service annoying at this point. Just admit what you want to do and present the product as such. Stop trying to play both ends of the field. At least that's what it feels like for me.
*for example, it was apparently "deprotagonizing" for the1st age Sids and DB (NPCs, so who really cares) for their to be any doubt about the necessity of the Usurpation or any alternative. Even allowing for a singular Solar to not turn into a baby eating monster was just too damaging to the other splats. And then the hypocrtical fucks yammer on about things not being blaCK and white or' "cartoonish". So we end up with solars cast as inevitable monsters for being "too powerful" (when allegedly the gap is very narrow) but the Dragonbloooded who are told practically from birth how superior and entitled they are having it all under control excxept for some "bad apples" becaue the great holy texts poo-poo it. while jacking and enslaving half the damn setting.
No we got 300 or so monster solars that weren't the partners of the Lunars but enslaved them. Deus and Lillith relationship was a sickening exception before, an example of entrenched privilege and pride causing people to turn a blind eye to corruption and how insidious and damaging that can be but now it seems like its going to be the default.
But at least they're not Solars (or Lunar I guess since they're concept as discussed by Holden can be summarized as "monster"). TH IO might be built on lies (and why hasn't their temporal power corrupt the bald monk dudes. Like it did the Shao lin in some periods?) but their conclusions are apparently spot on. Which again, for me, makes it seem like the DB are unofficial focus.
Just a bunch of hypocrisy....
Quote from: Anglachel;908600As an aside - i also liked the Savant & Sorcerer cover. Sure it was over the top and kind of an unnatural angle bla bla bla...but it's a cover for a game book, not a painting for the museum of anatomically correct art. Also, and that is what i find hilarious about the shit-storm around this cover...there was always sexy art in Exalted (and sexy is putting it mildly).
Some of that became "bad" retroactively in the virtue signaling parades but not many seemed to mind at the time. I could write a laundry list of suggestive, sexy illos in Exalted, alot more than sideboob and thigh they lose their shit over now. Hell for awhile the open and bold treatment of sexuality was considering a
selling point, something that made that set Creation apart from other more vanilla conservative fantasy settings.
QuoteAlso, all the assholes who went wild about the S&S cover are now the exact same ones that congratulate Exalted for the "art" piece about Volfer's (not sure i spelled that right...the new signature dawn dude) crotch shot. Talk about double standards... . Fucking hypocrites, all of them.
God that was annoying as fuck. And really put the cherry on the sundae this was the same crowd that griped about the Empress wearing a slit dress that showed some leg so it ended up with that jacked up photoshop cover up. You could be the farm there'd have been a flame storm visible from the moon if there was a female fighter in the book in nothing but a thong and a scrap of parchment on her breasts that translated "Property of Tepet Arada". The double standards run deeper than art too.
This thread makes me miss the good ol' 1E Exalted days when the sectarian nonsense between the various Exalted type fans was at its lowest. Oh and the system wasn't completely terrible.
Edit: Feck, if I recall correctly, the 2.5E errata essentially houseruled a bunch of stuff back to 1E precedents which is hilarious in hindsight. Was there any reason not to continue the 1E rules other than hubris?
Quote from: DeadUematsu;908666This thread makes me miss the good ol' 1E Exalted days when the sectarian nonsense between the various Exalted type fans was at its lowest. Oh and the system wasn't completely terrible.
Edit: Feck, if I recall correctly, the 2.5E errata essentially houseruled a bunch of stuff back to 1E precedents which is hilarious in hindsight. Was there any reason not to continue the 1E rules other than hubris?
Apparently the designers hit their Limit Break on hubris.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;908721Apparently the designers hit their Limit Break on hubris.
JG
Hiyoooooooo! :D
Quote from: DeadUematsu;908666This thread makes me miss the good ol' 1E Exalted days when the sectarian nonsense between the various Exalted type fans was at its lowest. Oh and the system wasn't completely terrible.
Edit: Feck, if I recall correctly, the 2.5E errata essentially houseruled a bunch of stuff back to 1E precedents which is hilarious in hindsight. Was there any reason not to continue the 1E rules other than hubris?
Yeah, there was. 1E was the best, but that doesn't mean it wasn't it's own kind of mess. Exalted 2E was kind of like D&D 3.0, the designers were using a different paradigm of play in their design, not realizing that people had moved on from that paradigm (For D&D it was that people would play 3.0 EXACTLY like 2E, that didn't happen; for Exalted, that people who are told they are supposed to be all powerful demigods WOULDN'T break the system over their knee to make that come true). Basically, they didn't see Jon Chung and the like coming. 3E, who fucking knows? I listened to the Off Topic podcast that was linked and the 'Exalted 2E house rules' comment put into words something that I couldn't.
Bottom line, I think EX2 was a valiant but failed effort to patch up the problems in EX1 that had cropped up.
The podcast brought up another thing that I really didn't notice but now that I think about is true. The oversized weapons have largely vanished. Which amuses me to no end because when I sad years ago that was downplaying that for my games because the aesthetic didn't do much for us I caught three different colors of crap for it like hoe it clearly had nothing at all to do with Final Fantasy's Buster Swords and big ass phallic symbol anime weapons but emulating the weapons in certain non Western mythology and were thus Serious Business for Serious Gamers to be Serious about. So I wan't playing Exalted anymore.
It tickles me to no end that Godbound* does Exalted better than Exalted. Hell, like I mentioned before, I've been chatting with fans of Gods of the Fall* who feel it does a better job of at being a game of divine heroes than Exalted does. So we have two non-Exalted settings/systems as viable, good alternatives to the ass-vomit that is Ex3. Winning.
What makes me sad is when I see Ex3's still #1 on DTRPG...
*tastes may vary between OSR and the Cypher System, but I hope we can agree that either is a much better alternative to Ex3.
I love to hate Ex3...*content sigh*
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908788It tickles me to no end that Godbound* does Exalted better than Exalted.
That's not a very high bar to clear.
The Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars line does Exalted better, and it's not even built for it!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;908807That's not a very high bar to clear.
Lower than the bar in a Smurf limbo contest.
QuoteThe Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars line does Exalted better, and it's not even built for it!
I know of two Dragonblooded focused games in GURPS that have been running successfully for quite awhile. GURPS is a good system but wouldn't be my first choice high flying Elemental Kung Fu but apparently it handles the setting better.
Quote from: Nexus;908811Lower than the bar in a Smurf limbo contest.
:D
Quote from: Nexus;908811I know of two Dragonblooded focused games in GURPS that have been running successfully for quite awhile. GURPS is a good system but wouldn't be my first choice high flying Elemental Kung Fu but apparently it handles the setting better.
Personally, I agree. Pick your superhero game of choice and run with it instead, I say.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;908807That's not a very high bar to clear.
The Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars line does Exalted better, and it's not even built for it!
I meant that OPP makes a bazillion in cash-money, treats its backers like ass, lies, is super-late and then the game sucks. Sine Nomine is a one-man-show that rakes in less, is open, helpful and transparent, delivers on time and the game rocks, doing
Exalted better than
Exalted.
Then you have a
supplement for a generic, rules lite system that's part of a three-part KS...the other two parts having nothing to do with a game of divinity...and it does more in 160 pages than Ex3 does in 700.
Both alternatives need to be hacked and they
still play better...
Exalted is good in theory and a nice "What if?" dream. In reality, it's like going to a club, seeing a really hot chick and when you get her home and slide her pants down a huge, unwashed dick falls out and hits you in the face.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908867In reality, it's like going to a club, seeing a really hot chick and when you get her home and slide her pants down a huge, unwashed dick falls out and hits you in the face.
Hey! Don't diss the openness and inclusiveness of Exalted as a game...it's a feature, not a bug. EVERYONE* should feel welcome and represented in the game!!!!
*
Safe for white heterosexual men, because you know, they are not allowed to have an opinion on ... well ... anything:D:D
:p
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908867I meant that OPP makes a bazillion in cash-money, treats its backers like ass, lies, is super-late and then the game sucks. Sine Nomine is a one-man-show that rakes in less, is open, helpful and transparent, delivers on time and the game rocks, doing Exalted better than Exalted.
Then you have a supplement for a generic, rules lite system that's part of a three-part KS...the other two parts having nothing to do with a game of divinity...and it does more in 160 pages than Ex3 does in 700.
Both alternatives need to be hacked and they still play better...
Exalted is good in theory and a nice "What if?" dream. In reality, it's like going to a club, seeing a really hot chick and when you get her home and slide her pants down a huge, unwashed dick falls out and hits you in the face.
We don't tolerate Transphobic hypotheticals here even if taking it as such entirely misses the point. You should know better *virtual finger wag* 1 yr ban. Please direct appeals to Gronan's pee hole.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908867In reality, it's like going to a club, seeing a really hot chick and when you get her home and slide her pants down a huge, unwashed dick falls out and hits you in the face.
"Unwashed?" It would help if it were clean?
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;908906"Unwashed?" It would help if it were clean?
It might.
At least mow the lawn.
Quote from: Nexus;908897
We don't tolerate Transphobic hypotheticals here even if taking it as such entirely misses the point. You should know better *virtual finger wag* 1 yr ban. Please direct appeals to Gronan's pee hole.
Ooooh! Red text! Mah feels and mah bads! In all seriousness, I used such a "controversial" example because 1) it's indicative of a bait n' switch, which applies to
Exalted, 2) I can and it's at least mildly funny, and 3) it gets under the skins of overly-sensitive asshole SJWs. What's crazy is that people in Bad-touch Barneyville would take it as transphobic. Well, I'm not scared of trannies, I just don't wanna' fuck 'em (the whole "
blank-phobic" thing is so dumb). The entire, easily seen point...that I wanted one thing but got another...would be lost on them. Perhaps I should've gone with, "It's like picking up a one-eyed, gender-fluid otherkin and when I got them home, a Bible falls out of their pocket, they remove their eyepatch and yell, "I'm actually a straight, white, Christian man!". More acceptable? :)
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;908906"Unwashed?" It would help if it were clean?
Yeah, unwashed it's like being smacked in the face by an anchovy sausage.
You got one thing wrong. Godbound was suppose to be release this fall. Which means Kevin Crawsford delivered the goods EARLY. Suck on that Exalted devs.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908867Exalted is good in theory and a nice "What if?" dream. In reality, it's like going to a club, seeing a really hot chick and when you get her home and slide her pants down a huge, unwashed dick falls out and hits you in the face.
"It's a trap!" - Admiral Ackbar
Quote from: Snowman0147;909032You got one thing wrong. Godbound was suppose to be release this fall. Which means Kevin Crawsford delivered the goods EARLY. Suck on that Exalted devs.
Oh, snaps! You're very right! I didn't back it, so I'm not brushed up on the chronology. In your face Rich & Friends! Kevin's bringing it and bringing it early.
To clarify,
Godbound isn't good because it's not
Exalted, it's just plain good. That it does
Exalted so well is just a bonus (and fodder for snideness!).
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908925Yeah, unwashed it's like being smacked in the face by an anchovy sausage.
Exactly how often does this happen to you???
Quote from: Spike;909089Exactly how often does this happen to you???
Any time I dare tread in the world of OPP...
Quote from: Nexus;908291They seemed to like the Withering and Decisive systems for combat. That thing still makes me teeth itch. But more from because of implementation than the basic premise.
I like it as well. Granted, the execution could have been better.
Admittedly, I did recently find a better execution in a houseruled system, which exists almost since the KS for Exalted 3. I attribute that to the "designer" (a friend I introduced to RPGs who has never heard of Exalted) working under different constraints.
Meaning, he's not even trying to hide that yes, it's meant to be a simulation of "jockeying for position and overcoming a layered defence". His "audience", read his group, doesn't care what stories can be told with the combat system, but who lives and who dies.
Quote from: Whitewings;908366A sex change is within the ability of an unExalted sorceror, but it would be quite expensive, about the equivalent of $5,000 in modern terms, the rituals would take an entire month, and the waiting list would be long because most sorcerors are very busy people. Also, Dereth is mostly a social custom; Diamond is unusual in being genuinely transexual. Taken together, these provide a good explanation for her still being a her, but still don't explain why she doesn't seem at all interested in becoming a he.
I think you missed a zero in the price. Other than that, yes, it's possible.
But "Dereth as a social custom" makes sense. Some people don't like the role they're assigned at birth (whether they'd be transgender, or whatever, is besides the point). Some societies have "safety valves" for them. The end. Some people that choose that veil would be transgender. Others would be men who prefer to be sociable and hate violence. Yet others would be women who don't feel like showing off their bodies and possibly like dueling, or whatever.
Quote from: Nexus;908451Hell considering the Black and White Treatise had a two page spread picture of The Lover Clad in Raiment of Tears that had her entire ass showing its hardly like it was only scantily clad sorceress in Exalted.
Who ever claimed she was the only one:)?
Quote from: Luca;908490Long story short, the new official line is that the savants and higher ups in the Immaculate Order (and not just the siddies behind it) knew all along that the whole "Solars are anathema sun-stealing demons" is bullshit, but they still feed the tale to the unwashed masses because the truth ("Solars were architect of a great era but their power got them crazy so we shall not allow them to rise again") would be too hard to understand for the peasants.
Quote from: Nexus;908494Here ya go.
Like most things Exalted this edition, its long and immense
Don't like it, reverted to 1st edition version of it;).
Quote from: Nexus;908571The whole thing along with other aspects of the revised setting serves to reinforce my feeling that its a setting about being demigod heroes written by people that don't believe in heroism and may in fact be innately corrupt.
Well, heroes has different meaning at different ages. My idea of "demigod heroes" has always been like the "heroes who fought at Troy".
In other words, I am unsurprised that they might practice slavery, violence, backstabbing on a political, military and physical level, skulduggery, mind control, poison use, mutilation of dead bodies, or genocidal tendencies. All of these and probably more are in the source material.
Quote from: Nexus;908811I know of two Dragonblooded focused games in GURPS that have been running successfully for quite awhile. GURPS is a good system but wouldn't be my first choice high flying Elemental Kung Fu but apparently it handles the setting better.
Well, GURPS with Martial Arts supplement does handle the Elemental Kung-fu part.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;909231Any time I dare tread in the world of OPP...
At this point, I think you should keep away from "the world of OPP" as much as you can;).
QuoteWell, heroes has different meaning at different ages. My idea of "demigod heroes" has always been like the "heroes who fought at Troy."
Heroes, in any definition, do great deeds and shape the world around them. The Exalted dev team seems to loathe this idea. Which, as Exalted doesn't have (or at least has been claimed not to have) an advancing setting, rather comes across as "Look at this wonderful world we've made and all these cool toys to do neat things with it! Wait, you're…
doing things to the world! You're
changing it! Waaaaah!" As I've put it before, Exalted is a game of epic heroism written by people who hate heroes and aren't too clear on the concept of epic.
Quote from: Whitewings;909299Heroes, in any definition, do great deeds and shape the world around them. The Exalted dev team seems to loathe this idea.
Assuming they did*, they'd have failed miserably to back their hate with mechanics.
Quite a few of the Charms are meant to do permanent changes, and so do the newly-introduced Sorcerous Workings.
*I'm not sure that's the truth.
To stop this thread from being a complete echo chamber, I'm going to second "Sorcerous Workings" as a cool mechanic which can see active play in a game.
The problem is, Dominion from Godbound does the same thing and more, and is a whole lot easier to use for PCs.
Really though, as has been said earlier, Exalted 1st is the best edition, although it too was riddled with design flaws. Going in completely different mechanical directions each edition hasn't seemed to help it much.
What the next Exalted should do, is take a note from D&D 5th edition. Shed some of the excess needless complexity of the later editions. Go back to basics.
Quote from: Orphan81;909335To stop this thread from being a complete echo chamber, I'm going to second "Sorcerous Workings" as a cool mechanic which can see active play in a game.
The problem is, Dominion from Godbound does the same thing and more, and is a whole lot easier to use for PCs.
Really though, as has been said earlier, Exalted 1st is the best edition, although it too was riddled with design flaws. Going in completely different mechanical directions each edition hasn't seemed to help it much.
What the next Exalted should do, is take a note from D&D 5th edition. Shed some of the excess needless complexity of the later editions. Go back to basics.
This edition already exists. Alas for the misnomer, it's called Exalted Quickstart, misleading some people into thinking it's not a complete game:).
For a slightly more detailed representation, get Burn Legend.
A sufficiently big part of the fan base would hate you for even suggesting it, though;). Some people just want more mechanics.
And yes, Dominion is a cool mechanic, but it's not the same as Workings, because Dominion is just resource allocation, while the Working is supposed to result from something you do on screen.
However, though the quickstart is simple, it isn't robust enough to be used more widely than just a quickstart.
A 1e base with some of the better fixes from 2e and 3e might be the way to go IMO.
Quote from: Skywalker;909362However, though the quickstart is simple, it isn't robust enough to be used more widely than just a quickstart.
A 1e base with some of the better fixes from 2e and 3e might be the way to go IMO.
I'd recommend again checking Burn Legend;).
Quote from: AsenRG;909364I'd recommend again checking Burn Legend;).
IMO Burn Legend is more a simplification of the full Exalted rules than a build up from the QS. The QS has a number of mechanics that differed from the full Exalted rules, such as the differences in melee and ranged damage and 1 Essence doubling values in Favoured traits. I would prefer a simplification of the Exalted rules than building up on these QS equivalents.
Problem now is I have no incentive to fix 1st ed for myself when I can just modify godbound to taste.
Seriously though, another thing that could have helped GM's with Exalted would have been a small amount of generic bad guy charms which could be adjusted based on the Exalted using them.
Rather than trying to force the GM to learn several hundred charms.
Of course, that is what I ended up doing in my own games.
Godbound has certainly provided a lot of food for thought that I would want to see included. The ease of use of bad guys and the smaller spread of PC combat ability are two major ones for me, as well as the better Dominion and Influence rules.
In fact, at this stage, I would say its much easier to start with Godbound than Exalted.
Quote from: Skywalker;909373IMO Burn Legend is more a simplification of the full Exalted rules than a build up from the QS. The QS has a number of mechanics that differed from the full Exalted rules, such as the differences in melee and ranged damage and 1 Essence doubling values in Favoured traits. I would prefer a simplification of the Exalted rules than building up on these QS equivalents.
Yes it is:). And since you say that you'd prefer that, you might want to consider it.
Quote from: Orphan81;909376Problem now is I have no incentive to fix 1st ed for myself when I can just modify godbound to taste.
Seriously though, another thing that could have helped GM's with Exalted would have been a small amount of generic bad guy charms which could be adjusted based on the Exalted using them.
Rather than trying to force the GM to learn several hundred charms.
Of course, that is what I ended up doing in my own games.
Yes, but I suspect that then the GMs would only need some of the books for the fluff, and might end up not buying them;).
Quote from: AsenRG;909381Yes it is:). And since you say that you'd prefer that, you might want to consider it.
Cool. I misunderstood you. I have considered running Burn Legend, but its too narrow in focus to be a replacement.
Quote from: Orphan81;909376Problem now is I have no incentive to fix 1st ed for myself when I can just modify godbound to taste.
Seriously though, another thing that could have helped GM's with Exalted would have been a small amount of generic bad guy charms which could be adjusted based on the Exalted using them.
Rather than trying to force the GM to learn several hundred charms.
Of course, that is what I ended up doing in my own games.
Just look at my signature. I have some posts for helpful house rules to make a Exaltedbound.
Quote from: Skywalker;909383Cool. I misunderstood you. I have considered running Burn Legend, but its too narrow in focus to be a replacement.
Sure, it's not fully equivalent, but only the full rules do everything that the full rules do. And it's a cool combat engine for the people that believe social combat should never have been created:).
Adding the current rules for sorcery would actually be easier, and that solves a lot of the rules you'd ever need if you're one of the above people;).
Wish they did Burn Legend as a full game instead of Exalted 3E.
Quote from: DeadUematsu;909554Wish they did Burn Legend as a full game instead of Exalted 3E.
Sort of Streetfighter: the Storytelling game 2ed?
Quote from: Orphan81;909376Problem now is I have no incentive to fix 1st ed for myself when I can just modify godbound to taste.
Seriously though, another thing that could have helped GM's with Exalted would have been a small amount of generic bad guy charms which could be adjusted based on the Exalted using them.
Rather than trying to force the GM to learn several hundred charms.
Of course, that is what I ended up doing in my own games.
I agree. For that matter, many of the player charms could have been rolled together either as "excellency" like mechenics or as upgrades that improved on their own (like when your Essence increased) or with experience investment. So many of the charms are minor bonuses or so situational it almost doesn't feel worth it.
Quote from: Whitewings;909299Heroes, in any definition, do great deeds and shape the world around them. The Exalted dev team seems to loathe this idea. Which, as Exalted doesn't have (or at least has been claimed not to have) an advancing setting, rather comes across as "Look at this wonderful world we've made and all these cool toys to do neat things with it! Wait, you're... doing things to the world! You're changing it! Waaaaah!" As I've put it before, Exalted is a game of epic heroism written by people who hate heroes and aren't too clear on the concept of epic.
Vague wiggle wording, Obi Wan truths and archaic cockeyed even flat out odd definitions ("They're not costumes, they're signature clothing") have been something ST/WW/OPP has used for quite some time so when inconsistency inevitably surface, or the game wobbles on its shaky ST foundation or the writers decide something else is "Kewl" and changes horses in mid stream they have plenty of room to backpedal or even blame the failure of the product on the customer.
I thought Qwixalted did a fairly good job of making the game work. My particular favorite was the detailed pass/pass and square-peg-round-hole advice rather than some vague unhelpful golden rule.
One thing I wanted was for the Great Curse to be tied to your Essence. As it rose so did your level of potential crazy. It makes no sense to fly of the handle Day 1, as the Solars wouldn't have been able to create the wondrous First Age if they were all bat-shit insane out of the gate. Yet another WTFism from WW/OPP...
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;910140One thing I wanted was for the Great Curse to be tied to your Essence. As it rose so did your level of potential crazy. It makes no sense to fly of the handle Day 1, as the Solars wouldn't have been able to create the wondrous First Age if they were all bat-shit insane out of the gate. Yet another WTFism from WW/OPP...
That's kind of how
Aberrant worked, actually. ;)
JG
I'd have like it if it hadn't started to seem like only Solars suffered from the Great Curse at all with other Exalts able to form empires and kingdoms that, while not perfect didn't turn into dystopic nightmares. Hell, the big example of the Sidereal GC, the possibility they jumped the gun in Usurpation has been shelved, the Realm has been getting a steady white wash since 1st and the so called Golden Age of Solar rule keeps getting more and more tarnished until it seems more like a nightmare from the start but at least the trains ran on time.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;910140One thing I wanted was for the Great Curse to be tied to your Essence. As it rose so did your level of potential crazy. It makes no sense to fly of the handle Day 1, as the Solars wouldn't have been able to create the wondrous First Age if they were all bat-shit insane out of the gate. Yet another WTFism from WW/OPP...
Actually, I found it does work that way, just in a roundabout way. When you are under the effects of the Great Curse as a high-Essence Exalted, your acts of insanity can devastate entire regions, unlike what you'd be able to achieve at lower Essence:).
If you were also acting more crazy-like, that would have been overkill, IME;).
What I've found is that you don't even necessarily NEED the Great Curse. Give your players enough rope and they hang themselves. I've had players:
-Put an entire village to the sword after an extensive bout of torture because SOMEONE NOT EVEN RELATED TO THE VILLAGE ambushed his troops. They just happened to be there for him to vent his spleen.
-Treat Non-Exalts as nothing more than inconvenient scenery to be chewed up and spit out at their leisure.
-Detonate an Essence Nuke that, in conjunction with an Abyssal Artifact, wiped the entirety of civilization in the Southwest off the map.
And that's just what I remember off the top of my head.
The Great Curse is actually a) not that bad in play, b) mostly a bookkeeping exercise/PITA for the GM, and c) not really neccesary. In my opinion. Players get pretty hubristic all on their own.
Quote from: Michael Gray;910220What I've found is that you don't even necessarily NEED the Great Curse. Give your players enough rope and they hang themselves. I've had players:
-Put an entire village to the sword after an extensive bout of torture because SOMEONE NOT EVEN RELATED TO THE VILLAGE ambushed his troops. They just happened to be there for him to vent his spleen.
-Treat Non-Exalts as nothing more than inconvenient scenery to be chewed up and spit out at their leisure.
-Detonate an Essence Nuke that, in conjunction with an Abyssal Artifact, wiped the entirety of civilization in the Southwest off the map.
And that's just what I remember off the top of my head.
The Great Curse is actually a) not that bad in play, b) mostly a bookkeeping exercise/PITA for the GM, and c) not really neccesary. In my opinion. Players get pretty hubristic all on their own.
Admittedly, that's true for quite a few players as well.
Quote from: AsenRG;910223Admittedly, that's true for quite a few players as well.
One success I HAVE had with using the Great Curse is to take the barebones of the Limits (Berzerk Rage, Heart of Stone, etc.) and tell the players: "Guys, every once in a while I want to see you flip out in the manner prescribed by your Limit. If you don't and the longer it goes I'M going to trigger it and it's going to be real, real bad." It takes all the "Did this action go with his Limit? How many points did he get?" bookkeeping aspect of it and also let's it not be as predictable to the players.
Quote from: Michael Gray;910220What I've found is that you don't even necessarily NEED the Great Curse. Give your players enough rope and they hang themselves. I've had players:
-Put an entire village to the sword after an extensive bout of torture because SOMEONE NOT EVEN RELATED TO THE VILLAGE ambushed his troops. They just happened to be there for him to vent his spleen.
-Treat Non-Exalts as nothing more than inconvenient scenery to be chewed up and spit out at their leisure.
-Detonate an Essence Nuke that, in conjunction with an Abyssal Artifact, wiped the entirety of civilization in the Southwest off the map.
And that's just what I remember off the top of my head.
The Great Curse is actually a) not that bad in play, b) mostly a bookkeeping exercise/PITA for the GM, and c) not really neccesary. In my opinion. Players get pretty hubristic all on their own.
That lines up with a time I was running Call of Cthulhu with some old friends. I began to realize that half I invoked the sanity rules, I was cutting off a player who was about to do do something crazy, simply because he got the kind of game we were playing. I quietly decided to stop calling for sanity checks, and PCs managed to freak out just as badly as they would anyway, and probably in more interesting ways than the dice would have provided.
If your players get the Great Curse and think playing a demi-god going mad with power sounds fun, there really isn't any need to quantify that with mechanics.
Quote from: AsenRG;910207Actually, I found it does work that way, just in a roundabout way. When you are under the effects of the Great Curse as a high-Essence Exalted, your acts of insanity can devastate entire regions, unlike what you'd be able to achieve at lower Essence:).
If you were also acting more crazy-like, that would have been overkill, IME;).
That reasoning is silly. Out-of-the-gate, Solars are beasts (at least they used to be). If they stubbed a toe and went on a murder spree, or got butt-hurt over man's inhumanity to man and ran away and hid under a bed for years, the First Age never would've occurred. Plus, the first Exalts were presumably more powerful in order to you know, do their jobs. The devastation would've been enormous. The Great Curse doesn't mean shit to anyone else, in practice. It's a crap mechanic and James Gillen's correct that
Aberrant did it, which by its very existence means it did it better.
I see Solars as divine representations of everything SJWs hate: power and being the best. I'm surprised they weren't written as religious Conservatives who fought daiklave control. They're the fall guys for everything.
WW/OPP has a near-masturbatory lust for punishing power for the sake of it being power and it's utter garbage.
Quote from: Baulderstone;910230That lines up with a time I was running Call of Cthulhu with some old friends. I began to realize that half I invoked the sanity rules, I was cutting off a player who was about to do do something crazy, simply because he got the kind of game we were playing. I quietly decided to stop calling for sanity checks, and PCs managed to freak out just as badly as they would anyway, and probably in more interesting ways than the dice would have provided.
If your players get the Great Curse and think playing a demi-god going mad with power sounds fun, there really isn't any need to quantify that with mechanics.
That's a great way to do it as it doesn't take away a player's control in dumb-ass ways. It's obnoxious to say, "Oh, you're feels have been hurt. You slay your honor guard in a fit of rage" while the player sits by helplessly. Guess they should've taken the "I shave my head, give away all my shit and eat berries on a mountaintop" choice...
The Great Curse always felt like a ham fisted way to make you sure you were playing the game right according to the developers wishes and keep the all important WW/ST angst levels high. Like others have pointed out either your players are on board with the idea of playing hubristic passion driven demigods, will end up oing much the same thing just being PCs or aren't really into the idea i the first place. Whipping them with semi random bouts of insanity doesn't really help or even enforce the genre. The epic rages, grand sulks and other fits of passion happened for reason not just as random.
Most the anecdotes I've heard about the GC involve it ruining a session or even a campaign with few exception. It also bugs some players in a verisimilitude sense. One one of their friends flips out and slaughters a village or strips naked and walked the streets lashing themselves with nettles and wailing over the follies of mankind.. its kind of hard to ignore. Even if you're playing amoral pragmatists that kind of instability is dangerous. It's not dramatic, its not genre enforcement and, IMO, its not any fun.
Fortunately, in most editions is also been very easy to ignore.
I've actually always been a fan of the great curse, at least the first edition version which affected everyone. The whole usurpation was the fault of the sidereal Exalted.
The more of them which work together for vision, the more devastatingly inaccurate the vision is. They saw the Solars going mad and had their big meeting.
They saw 3 outcomes.. The world ending, the world continuing in a lesser format if they kill the Solars and raise up the dragon Blooded.. Or the Golden age continuing if they did their job and advised and helped the Solars deal with their madness.
Naturally the curse muddled the vision and they chose wrong.
I also found it an interesting plot point the great curse was unknown to all the Exalted. It would be an interesting plot point if the great curse was discovered as being a thing affecting all Exalted.
Edit : On my phone, so grammar is bad.
We have also had a positive experience with the GC, provided the player has chosen an appropriate GC. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does it is the cumulative result of the PCs actions and has almost always been memorable and tragic. We found that the GC added a sense of growing tension to the game, which helped make Exalted less of a superheroic affair and more mythic fantasy.
There were so many different "interpretations" of the Sidereal Great Curse floating around after awhile it was difficult to determine if it did anything at all. Unless they're planning on some big "reveal" later, the Usurpation was definitely the right choice as of 3rd Edition, no Solars escaped becoming tyrants and monsters and they were going to destroy Creation unless stopped. IIRC (and I don't feel like wading back into that tome to find out) even most of the destruction during and after the uprising was due to the Solar's madness; their unstable devices going haywirse or hidden revenge booby traps going off more so than the battle itself. I guess they'll be going with 2nd edition version where it was mostly over in a day or so with some extended mop up mission to hunt down the few stragglers and murder their families and children (out of necessity of course).
Quote from: Nexus;910320There were so many different "interpretations" of the Sidereal Great Curse floating around after awhile it was difficult to determine if it did anything at all. Unless they're planning on some big "reveal" later, the Usurpation was definitely the right choice as of 3rd Edition, no Solars escaped becoming tyrants and monsters and they were going to destroy Creation unless stopped. IIRC (and I don't feel like wading back into that tome to find out) even most of the destruction during and after the uprising was due to the Solar's madness; their unstable devices going haywirse or hidden revenge booby traps going off more so than the battle itself. I guess they'll be going with 2nd edition version where it was mostly over in a day or so with some extended mop up mission to hunt down the few stragglers and murder their families and children (out of necessity of course).
I may be remembering incorrectly (and I really could, I'm asking if anyone else remembers this) but wasn't there this online community that REALLY loved the Sidereals? To the point that even some of the devs felt 'obligated' to respond to them in some fashion?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910323I may be remembering incorrectly (and I really could, I'm asking if anyone else remembers this) but wasn't there this online community that REALLY loved the Sidereals? To the point that even some of the devs felt 'obligated' to respond to them in some fashion?
All the splats had their vocal fans and which one was more obnoxious depended on who you asked but, from my perspective, it did seem like being a vocal Solar fan became a negative "Solar Fanboy" being a big slam and conversational code "Your opinions can be ignored". Most of the major Solar fans I knew when left the game, the community or both.
That said, Sidereals do have allot of very active fans. Their 1st edition splatbook rreally play the "from our point of view" drum hard, painting them as the unsung heroes of the setting holding Creation together despite the other Exalt's bumbling ham fisted "heroics" and outright evil with abilities that make them vital the setting unlike the others splats. Readers that clicked with Sids really brought into that plus the Sids fit more into one of the usual Storyteller structure of small group secret masters of the world/secret society engaging in political shenanigans and black ops then Solar/Lunar "Wandering Hero" so it makes some sense that many WW player got them more.
The big complaints I remember about the earlier presentations of the Usurpation were that it make the Solars look "too powerful" and that having any doubt as to its absolute nessescity "deprotagonized" the Sidereals and Dragonblooded. I remember those voices getting pretty loud, particularly on rp.gnet.
Quote from: Michael Gray;910220The Great Curse is actually a) not that bad in play, b) mostly a bookkeeping exercise/PITA for the GM, and c) not really neccesary. In my opinion. Players get pretty hubristic all on their own.
I'm surprised that the designers didn't consider that.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;910343I'm surprised that the designers didn't consider that.
JG
Trying to prevent your customers from screwing up their games by playing them wrong is a long standing tradition.
Quote from: James Gillen;910343I'm surprised that the designers didn't consider that.
JG
Quote from: Nexus;910347Trying to prevent your customers from screwing up their games by playing them wrong is a long standing tradition.
They are THE originators of 'BadWrongFun' or 'You're playing it WRONG!'. We still get backhanded derogatory statements about how playing Vampire as Superheroes with Fangs was somehow not 'intended'. And anyone who plays and works with White Wolf ascribes to that mentality.
Quote from: James Gillen;910343I'm surprised that the designers didn't consider that.
JG
Considering their target audience, so am I. I mean, do we really need rules for being a domineering ass who wants everything done our way with no dissent or adherence to truth?
Quote from: Michael Gray;910224One success I HAVE had with using the Great Curse is to take the barebones of the Limits (Berzerk Rage, Heart of Stone, etc.) and tell the players: "Guys, every once in a while I want to see you flip out in the manner prescribed by your Limit. If you don't and the longer it goes I'M going to trigger it and it's going to be real, real bad." It takes all the "Did this action go with his Limit? How many points did he get?" bookkeeping aspect of it and also let's it not be as predictable to the players.
Yeah, I can see that working, but I can also see it failing miserably with the wrong players and/or wrong GM:).
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;910250That reasoning is silly. Out-of-the-gate, Solars are beasts (at least they used to be). If they stubbed a toe and went on a murder spree, or got butt-hurt over man's inhumanity to man and ran away and hid under a bed for years, the First Age never would've occurred. Plus, the first Exalts were presumably more powerful in order to you know, do their jobs. The devastation would've been enormous. The Great Curse doesn't mean shit to anyone else, in practice. It's a crap mechanic and James Gillen's correct that Aberrant did it, which by its very existence means it did it better.
I see Solars as divine representations of everything SJWs hate: power and being the best. I'm surprised they weren't written as religious Conservatives who fought daiklave control. They're the fall guys for everything.
WW/OPP has a near-masturbatory lust for punishing power for the sake of it being power and it's utter garbage.
:D
OK, that post is just so funny I don't want to reply.
Quote from: Orphan81;910287I've actually always been a fan of the great curse, at least the first edition version which affected everyone. The whole usurpation was the fault of the sidereal Exalted.
The more of them which work together for vision, the more devastatingly inaccurate the vision is. They saw the Solars going mad and had their big meeting.
They saw 3 outcomes.. The world ending, the world continuing in a lesser format if they kill the Solars and raise up the dragon Blooded.. Or the Golden age continuing if they did their job and advised and helped the Solars deal with their madness.
Naturally the curse muddled the vision and they chose wrong.
I also found it an interesting plot point the great curse was unknown to all the Exalted. It would be an interesting plot point if the great curse was discovered as being a thing affecting all Exalted.
Edit : On my phone, so grammar is bad.
It's mostly unchanged two editions later, and I like it as well;).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910357They are THE originators of 'BadWrongFun' or 'You're playing it WRONG!'. We still get backhanded derogatory statements about how playing Vampire as Superheroes with Fangs was somehow not 'intended'. And anyone who plays and works with White Wolf ascribes to that mentality.
I can recall some grouchy columns in Dragon Magazine about people playing D&D wrong by Gary Gygax. You can find plenty of other accusations of BadWrongFun in Dragon's Forum. Then you had Call of Cthulhu players who got upset about players solving problems with dynamite rather than dying like they were supposed to. Marvel Superheroes had its Karma mechanic to make sure that you got punished if you tried to play "monsters with cool powers" rather than "heroes without fangs".
There was never anything particularly new about Storyteller's system or the problems surrounding it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;910357They are THE originators of 'BadWrongFun' or 'You're playing it WRONG!'. We still get backhanded derogatory statements about how playing Vampire as Superheroes with Fangs was somehow not 'intended'. And anyone who plays and works with White Wolf ascribes to that mentality.
There were fans arguments about "Badwronggfun" but WW made it part of their brand.I was pretty invested in their games for awhile and that sort of preaching and finger wagging was pretty consistent. How "elite" and special their games were was pushed as a selling point. and it worked, the pretentiousness actually drew in more fans. Go figure. But the finger wagging for "doing it wrong" ranged from post by the staff on forums to articles in the books themselves like the infamous "This is not the Superfriends" screed in the Aberrant Player's Guide.
Plus "You're playing it wrong" has been a rote response to mechanical issues up to Exalted 2nd Edition. Game doesn't hold up at the table, obviously people are playing it wrong (which gets back to wiggle wording and such). I can't say "everyone" that worked for WW espoused this but it did seem to be the company line and its public face. And its hung around until now.
Quote from: Baulderstone;910655IMarvel Superheroes had its Karma mechanic to make sure that you got punished if you tried to play "monsters with cool powers" rather than "heroes without fangs".
I think this is a false equivalency. AFAIK, the writers of Marvel Superheroes never got into discussions or wrote articles chastising gamers for playing Supervillains are ignoring the Karma rules as "doing it wrong". There were, IIRC, even modules and supplements that altered the Karma rules for different subgenres.
Karma was a genre enforcement rule but didn't, IMO, come across as ham fisted and heavy handed as things like The Great Curse or as square peg some of the "Angst O'meters" in the various WW game (it worked for Vampire but some of them others... not so much, IMO). But more importantly there wasn't as much tsking and tutting over wanting to play the game differently.
Quote from: Baulderstone;910655There was never anything particularly new about Storyteller's system or the problems surrounding it.
The Badwrongfun issue wasn't unique to White Wolf but it was very prominent with them and something that the company itself often seemed to promote instead of a fan originated idea.
Quote from: Baulderstone;910655I can recall some grouchy columns in Dragon Magazine about people playing D&D wrong by Gary Gygax. You can find plenty of other accusations of BadWrongFun in Dragon's Forum. Then you had Call of Cthulhu players who got upset about players solving problems with dynamite rather than dying like they were supposed to. Marvel Superheroes had its Karma mechanic to make sure that you got punished if you tried to play "monsters with cool powers" rather than "heroes without fangs".
There was never anything particularly new about Storyteller's system or the problems surrounding it.
Quote from: Nexus;910659There were fans arguments about "Badwronggfun" but WW made it part of their brand. I was pretty invested in their games for awhile and that sort of preaching and finger wagging was pretty consistent. How "elite" and special their games were was pushed as a selling point. and it worked, the pretentiousness actually drew in more fans. Go figure. But the finger wagging for "doing it wrong" ranged from post by the staff on forums to articles in the books themselves like the infamous "This is not the Superfriends" screed in the Aberrant Player's Guide.
Plus "You're playing it wrong" has been a rote response to mechanical issues up to Exalted 2nd Edition. Game doesn't hold up at the table, obviously people are playing it wrong (which gets back to wiggle wording and such). I can't say "everyone" that worked for WW espoused this but it did seem to be the company line and its public face. And its hung around until now.
Nexus nails it dead. I'm not saying that no one ever did it before, or had mechanics that wanted to guide players into a certain play style, but like Nexus just posted, they made it into a gaming philosophy that their fans took to heart. From the language they used, to the integrated mechanics and various 'morality' tracks, they made "Your doing it
WRONG!!!" into their own.
Never heard of any other company writing and publishing a series of modules as an inside joke to mock and ridicule their own fans like WW did with the V:TM Diablerie series of modules.
So, if something is true, and you post it on a forum, can it still be considered to be a personal/group attack? Well, unsurprisingly, on rpg.net, the answer is yes. Especially if you "attack" their favorite people :rolleyes:
Context: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?786912-Gathering-People-scammed-by-Richard-Thomas-Onyx-Path
On a side note - Wouldn't it be hilarious if something like that would gain momentum and kill OPP? I mean considering how many times proponents of their side (aka the outrage crowd and SJWs) have gone on boycott-rampages (aka actively calling for boycott [for example on rpg.net] and using their pull to get stuff taken down from drivethru etc. ) against other publishing groups who, allegedly, have "done something wrong/bad" * ? I would call it sweet fucking karma, bitches! :D
*whereas normal people would just call it matter-of-taste and live-and-let-live. Don't like something? Vote with your wallet, don't go around and moralize make-believe games, asshole!
Quote from: Nexus;910660The Badwrongfun issue wasn't unique to White Wolf but it was very prominent with them and something that the company itself often seemed to promote instead of a fan originated idea.
Early Vampire actually did encourage different play styles. The original Storytellers Handbook was full of optional campaign models. The turning point was when
Dirty Secrets of Black Hand, which presented a campaign model that was far too gonzo for the fans, who lost their shit over it. White Wolf became a lot more boring from that point on, and the most rabid fans became writers. It became all about canon and metaplot.
So it ended as much as expected. He should had gone to Kickstarter. They forced Rich to hand out refunds in the Exalted Kickstarter.
Quote from: Baulderstone;910798Early Vampire actually did encourage different play styles. The original Storytellers Handbook was full of optional campaign models. The turning point was when Dirty Secrets of Black Hand, which presented a campaign model that was far too gonzo for the fans, who lost their shit over it. White Wolf became a lot more boring from that point on, and the most rabid fans became writers. It became all about canon and metaplot.
I agree very early Vampire, like 1st ed (and early Storyteller over all) weren't as bad about it. Inmates taking over the asylum has been another problem with Storyteller for some time, until now really as I see it as one of the things that lead to Ex 3.
The constant "science bad!" Message pretty well everything the put out post-WtA did nothing to help. Sometimes it was blatant, sometimes relatively subtle, but it was always there. The writers' near-total ignorance of science and technology did nothing to help the situation; neither does their long-standing refusal to apply any degree of logic to their settings.
Quote from: Whitewings;910844The constant "science bad!" Message pretty well everything the put out post-WtA did nothing to help. Sometimes it was blatant, sometimes relatively subtle, but it was always there. The writers' near-total ignorance of science and technology did nothing to help the situation; neither does their long-standing refusal to apply any degree of logic to their settings.
Sit down son and I will tell you the tell of how logic defeated Mage: The Awakening. I made a sexy goth chic who makes bone weapons and armor that is more durable than steel. I, however, needed none of that for I moved out of the city. While I lived alone to quiet study the others played politics. While I try to achieve mastery the others got into conflict for their masters. While I achieved archmastery the others laid six feet under. At the end the masters feared me and the players cried. Simply because I avoided the other mages who blindly follow idealologies that only got in their way.
Quote from: Whitewings;910844The constant "science bad!" Message pretty well everything the put out post-WtA did nothing to help. Sometimes it was blatant, sometimes relatively subtle, but it was always there. The writers' near-total ignorance of science and technology did nothing to help the situation; neither does their long-standing refusal to apply any degree of logic to their settings.
This was more of a 90s thing than a White Wolf thing. Millenialism had everyone distrusting the "authorities" and Science for being the man.
Their was a pagan revival with lots of white folks becoming "Wiccan" or obsessed with Celtic culture and the like. It's more a product of its time than any sort of agenda.
It's why the 20th anniversary stuff started pulling away from that.
Man, I lived through the nineties, don't let my baby face fool ya. That is one hell of a dumb statement. I also bought an assload of RPGs in the nineties, and white wolf pretty much was the only one that was rabidly anti-science.
Quote from: Spike;910882Man, I lived through the nineties, don't let my baby face fool ya. That is one hell of a dumb statement. I also bought an assload of RPGs in the nineties, and white wolf pretty much was the only one that was rabidly anti-science.
Yeah. it did seem to be their "thing" even early on. Like Badwrongfun it wasn't JUST them but they exemplified it and some others seemed to be aping them not the other way around. I mean, Hell, 1st Edition Exalted started with a "Don't believe what the scientists tell you..." bit though its more excusable as a framing mechanism based on the premise that Creation was the "Pre World of Darkness" and other Sword and Sorcery stories had similar preambles but it still rang as "Same Old Shit" from the pale Lupine.
Thing is, I don't mind a fictional setting being "anti science" where science as we know it is wrong. Other things don't work like they do in the real world afterall and any world where there's vampires, werewolves, mages, etc, science in the real world sense at least has some major holes in its picture of how the Universe works. It was the preachiness and implicit assumption that it wasn't just the setting biut this was how the real world worked that bugged allot of people I think. Same thing with allot of their games politics, come to think of it.
Quote from: Anglachel;910781Context: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?786912-Gathering-People-scammed-by-Richard-Thomas-Onyx-Path
Look at the first moderator responding. That tells you everything you need to know.
Quote from: yosemitemike;911295Look at the first moderator responding. That tells you everything you need to know.
This does not come within a parsec of surprising me.
Quote from: Spike;910882Man, I lived through the nineties, don't let my baby face fool ya. That is one hell of a dumb statement. I also bought an assload of RPGs in the nineties, and white wolf pretty much was the only one that was rabidly anti-science.
Right, so X-Files, Shadowrun, Deadlands, Captain Planet, The Matrix, and the like didn't exist in the 90s...:rolleyes: You sure you lived through the same Decade I went to Highschool in?
Edit Post: Your also misremembering, it wasn't all Science, it was the "Man's" Science. Nockers, Sons of Ether/Virtual Adepts, Glass Walkers, Artificers, and Techno-Tremere existed..
If you didn't use the man's science you were good...mostly....But reject any corporate or governmental science.
Shadowrun was anti-corporate, not anti-science. Deadlands wasn't anti-science at all. The others weren't RPGs. And in White Wolf, real science, as in the stuff that we have in our world, the body of knowledge generated by rational inquiry, was wrong, evil or both. Nockers weren't scientists; they were tinkerers. The VAs were hackers, not scientists, and the Sons of Ether were defined by their application of outmoded, eccentric or just plain wrong theories. The Glass Walkers were just as big on spiritualism as any other tribe; they simply used different trappings and dealt with newer spirits, like Television or Automobile. Science and technology are two different things.
Quote from: Whitewings;911344Deadlands wasn't anti-science at all.
Deadlands is the game where scientists are driven slowly insane by the demons whispering in their ear to inspire their creations. Their inventions run burning human souls, and are part of a plot to guide humanity into ultimately building the ghost rock bombs that will wipe out civilization and bring the Reckoners into the world.
Quote from: Baulderstone;911403Deadlands is the game where scientists are driven slowly insane by the demons whispering in their ear to inspire their creations. Their inventions run burning human souls, and are part of a plot to guide humanity into ultimately building the ghost rock bombs that will wipe out civilization and bring the Reckoners into the world.
All scientist by innate nature or where there "Mad Scientists"? Serious question. I hadn't heard anything about Deadlands being Anti Science by nature but there were villains tampering with typical pulp "things man was not meant to know" such as combing the supernatural (which was corrupting in a horror setting) to technology. The impression I had more some humans were recklessly dabbling in things it didn't fully understand, and there was going to be a backlash less the "Science/Technology is Evil".
Quote from: Nexus;911406All scientist by innate nature or where there "Mad Scientists"?
Only scientists that work with ghost rock are corrupted but that's where you get the mad scientist gizmos so that will include almost all PCs.
Quote from: Nexus;911406All scientist by innate nature or where there "Mad Scientists"? Serious question. I hadn't heard anything about Deadlands being Anti Science by nature but there were villains tampering with typical pulp "things man was not meant to know" such as combing the supernatural (which was corrupting in a horror setting) to technology. The impression I had more some humans were recklessly dabbling in things it didn't fully understand, and there was going to be a backlash less the "Science/Technology is Evil".
Only the mad scientists. The problem is the Reckoners, the evil demonic entities that created ghost rock in the first place. The game isn't anti-science at all since there's nothing wrong with normal inventions or progress. Technology itself isn't evil, but it often can be used by evil people or entities.
In the possible-future Deadlands Hell on Earth, people have discovered the truth about mad science and given it up but not before the creation of the ghost rock bombs that eventually destroyed everything. And technology can be your best friend or worst enemy there; you've got General Throckmorton's automatons in Denver threatening to sweep over the Wasted West, yet one of your best allies could be the sentient AI in the last communications satellite up in orbit. A small army of cyborgs might just invade and conquer everything, but on the other hand the city of Junkyard (with it's spook-juice-production facilities) remains the best hope for mankind not to be swallowed up by all the crazy, evil shit that's running around.
Quote from: yosemitemike;911408Only scientists that work with ghost rock are corrupted but that's where you get the mad scientist gizmos so that will include almost all PCs.
Thanks. I don't think that's "anti science" though but more here's weird dangerous fringe things for PCs to recklessly exploit to get power. At a price. Many Fantasy setting could be considered "anti magic" if the criteria was just there's a form of it that's bad news. But the (NPC) working on a better steam engine or telegraph is going to go insane and dooming the world to slow stagnation and stasis under the thrall of the Weaver, Banality r\ or something similar by definition. Deadlands sounds "anti" bizarre demonic/necromantic whatever mineral energy source more than anti science overall.
Quote from: Nexus;911413Thanks. I don't think that's "anti science" though but more here's weird dangerous fringe things for PCs to recklessly exploit to get power. At a price. Many Fantasy setting could be considered "anti magic" if the criteria was just there's a form of it that's bad news. But the (NPC) working on a better steam engine or telegraph is going to go insane and dooming the world to slow stagnation and stasis under the thrall of the Weaver, Banality r\ or something similar by definition. Deadlands sounds "anti" bizarre demonic/necromantic whatever mineral energy source more than anti science overall.
Deadland's message is extremely simple.
DO work on innovations to help mankind.
DON'T play around with rocks infused with the ghosts of the damned by the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
That is all.
Quote from: Nexus;911413Thanks. I don't think that's "anti science" though but more here's weird dangerous fringe things for PCs to recklessly exploit to get power. .
Deadlands is big on the power at a price theme. I should say that there are plenty of warning signs about using Ghost Rock that are being ignored at all levels of society. There are some pretty serious red flags that the wider scientific community is ignoring or rationalizing. The fact that it screams like damned souls when you burn it is the most obvious one. Whether this is anti-science or not is debatable but it does show the scientific community as being grossly irresponsible at best.
Quote from: yosemitemike;911418Deadlands is big on the power at a price theme. I should say that there are plenty of warning signs about using Ghost Rock that are being ignored at all levels of society. There are some pretty serious red flags that the wider scientific community is ignoring or rationalizing. The fact that it screams like damned souls when you burn it is the most obvious one. Whether this is anti-science or not is debatable but it does show the scientific community as being grossly irresponsible at best.
Exactly. I am not trying to hold
Deadlands as the ultimate screed against science. I am responding to a quote saying, "Deadlands wasn't anti-science
at all."
It's a game where the dangers of science are heavily underlined.
Quote from: Baulderstone;911419Exactly. I am not trying to hold Deadlands as the ultimate screed against science. I am responding to a quote saying, "Deadlands wasn't anti-science at all."
It's a game where the dangers of science are heavily underlined.
Technically, that would be true if there was one antiscience NPC in one sourcebook and or antiscience character in one tie-in novel or game. You're taking that a little too literally.
Quote from: Whitewings;911344Shadowrun was anti-corporate, not anti-science. Deadlands wasn't anti-science at all. The others weren't RPGs. And in White Wolf, real science, as in the stuff that we have in our world, the body of knowledge generated by rational inquiry, was wrong, evil or both. Nockers weren't scientists; they were tinkerers. The VAs were hackers, not scientists, and the Sons of Ether were defined by their application of outmoded, eccentric or just plain wrong theories. The Glass Walkers were just as big on spiritualism as any other tribe; they simply used different trappings and dealt with newer spirits, like Television or Automobile. Science and technology are two different things.
Look man, you can split hairs and move goalposts all you want, but the 90s had a heavy anti-authoritatian "Science is mostly bad, but not all of it" Vibe to it. It's also disingenuius as hell to say the entire WoD line was completely anti-science. The Glasswalkers used freaking cyberware... Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts made advanced technology in the hopes of pushing science further out of the Technocracy's hold on it... Nockers were the dreams of inventors and inventions..
And as Baulderstone said, Deadlands scientist used the souls of the damned and had Demons whisper technology in their ears. Shadowrun was Cyberpunk, which is all about Technology failing to address society's ills and sometimes even making it worse.. and if you go back to my original statement, I said Anti-Science was a big theme of the 90s.. everyone was doing it... WoD being a game set in the modern day, did it more than others... But other RPG's were doing it too.
Quote from: Brand55;911414Deadland's message is extremely simple.
DO work on innovations to help mankind.
DON'T play around with rocks infused with the ghosts of the damned by the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
That is all.
Always good advice.
JG
Quote from: yosemitemike;911423Technically, that would be true if there was one antiscience NPC in one sourcebook and or antiscience character in one tie-in novel or game. You're taking that a little too literally.
I would be taking it to literally if Deadlands had one antiscience NPC in one sourcebook. Instead, it had a scientist PC class made up insane scientists being duped by demons into ending civilization.
I like Deadlands. I'm not trying to start a crusade against it. I am just saying that it really doesn't portray science in any kind of positive light.
Quote from: Baulderstone;911443I would be taking it to literally if Deadlands had one antiscience NPC in one sourcebook. Instead, it had a scientist PC class made up insane scientists being duped by demons into ending civilization.
I like Deadlands. I'm not trying to start a crusade against it. I am just saying that it really doesn't portray science in any kind of positive light.
Deadlands: posits a theoretical branch of science that emerges, which allows you to generate great power through evil.
Shadowrun: posits an environment wherein corporations are amoral at best, have great power, and control everything, including science.
WoD: posits repeatedly that science,
as we know it today, is a lie and/or something used by the powerful to control/manipulate the weak.
Most people are going to see a clear distinction there.
It still doesn't seem "anti science" at all to me. "This particular occult material is dangerous and being handled recklessly." isn't condemning science or advancement as a whole is evil or the game is anti science as proposed.
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;911446Deadlands: posits a theoretical branch of science that emerges, which allows you to generate great power through evil.
Shadowrun: posits an environment wherein corporations are amoral at best, have great power, and control everything, including science.
WoD: posits repeatedly that science, as we know it today, is a lie and/or something used by the powerful to control/manipulate the weak.
Most people are going to see a clear distinction there.
The Sioux Union performs a ceremony which stops any form of Technology more advanced than the Bow and Arrow from functioning on their lands. This is what allows them to enjoy peace and prosperity, even through the Apocalypse itself. The world ends up Nuked to hell and back for Deadlands Hell on Earth.
Beyond this, WoD itself didn't have a blanket "Anti-Science" vibe either. Every WoD game was considered a Universe unto itself and had the 'right' mythology depending on which one you were playing. Vampire had absolutely nothing to say about Science, except for the fact it made taking over the Kine ludicrous, hence the need for the Masquerade.
Werewolf was not Anti-Science completely either. The Red Talons were the only Tribe who wanted to strip all Technology from Humans. The Glass Walkers even made magic technology fetishes. Mage was the closest to "Science=Bad" and even then it was far more nuanced than that. The Sorceror's Crusade has the Technocracy as the Good Guys still in the Order of Reason. The Order even formed initially to give science to the masses so the Wizard on the hill would stop oppressing them. It was stressed in Mage modern as well, that the Technocracy didn't have complete control of Science, and was going out of their way to narrow it and make it less useful so they could excerise greater control. Wraith had no anti-science message either beyond War is hell and makes a lot of Wraiths. Hunter: The Reckoning had no message about Science one way or another. Demon: The Fallen had a pro-science message considering two of the Angelic Types were all about the Science of the world since they helped create the laws of the universe.
Changeling was the one which had the greatest issues with Science, and even that varied from book to book because different writers and developers couldn't decide what was and was not banal. At one point smoking was banal, and then in Kithbook Nocker we learn a Nocker worked on the Manhattan Project. Changeling's greatest offense was being anti-psychiatry which is something that is absolutely stupid.
There were a lot of stupid things in original WoD, and there were books which did have a "Science bad!" ethos to them, but it was by no means blanket across the lines, from title to title, or even supplement to supplement.
Quote from: Orphan81;911425Look man, you can split hairs and move goalposts all you want,
There's some hair splitting and goal post shifting going on but I don't think its coming from Whitewings.
Quotebut the 90s had a heavy anti-authoritarian "Science is mostly bad, but not all of it" Vibe to it. It's also disingenuous as hell to say the entire WoD line was completely anti-science. The Glasswalkers used freaking cyberware... Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts made advanced technology in the hopes of pushing science further out of the Technocracy's hold on it... Nockers were the dreams of inventors and inventions..
And as Baulderstone said, Deadlands scientist used the souls of the damned and had Demons whisper technology in their ears. Shadowrun was Cyberpunk, which is all about Technology failing to address society's ills and sometimes even making it worse.. and if you go back to my original statement, I said Anti-Science was a big theme of the 90s.. everyone was doing it... WoD being a game set in the modern day, did it more than others... But other RPG's were doing it too.
Who said WoD was the only setting that every did it? It was the setting/game line the exemplified and maintained a reputation for it that lasts to today. There were other games that used "anti science" theme but those were some bad examples. Deadlands "anti science" revolved around "Don't' use a screaming demonic ore." that's hardly a scathing condemnation of real worlds as being a force that is actively (and sometimes willfully) dooming the world (The Wyrm, The Weaver, Banality, etc). They trumpeted it as a game line in their settings. Even the "pro tech" groups were usually warped or corrupted in some fashion. The Glasswalkers about fall to the Weaver, Nockers grumpy banality laden. The Sons of Ether used a romanticized retro tech not "real" science thst was the realm of the Technocracy, the default bad guys. The VA were something of an exception but computers are kewl.
Orphan, you're nitpicking certain instances. The Sioux Union uses magic to keep science and technology from working in their lands. But science and technology still works perfectly fine everywhere else. In fact, it works so well, it's still the number one way of causing or dealing with violence in Shadowrun.
In Deadlands, normal guns and trains and other devices, you know the stuff that doesn't use Ghost Rock work perfectly fine, just like it would in the 'real world' back then. Ghost Rock technology was a subset of magic because of the properties of the stuff. But plain old lead, steam and steel? Not an issue, and often was the better choice.
In WoD, just look at Mage and it took several centuries of human conditioning to make Science and Tech work. And you have a subset of humans who deny that and make reality do what they want, outside of those 'rules'.
And that's just it, in WoD Science and Technology were nothing more than imposed rules that shackle humanity into a controlled jail that only the elite control. Rules that could be broken by the right mindset, and the game world's 'heroes' were actually those who rebelled against Science and Technology. That's a pretty heavy handed anti-science screed.
My argument, is that the entire WoD never had a "Anti-Science" vibe. Some of it did, but it was not Universal from game to game. The Anti-Science aspect was also tied into distrust of institutions which was rampant in the 90s and tied into Millenialism and showed up in other games as well. But fine, I'll bow out, you guys are right.
Edit: What the Hell am I doing? I've had this same damn argument countless times 20 fucking years ago.
Quote from: Orphan81;911453There were a lot of stupid things in original WoD, and there were books which did have a "Science bad!" ethos to them, but it was by no means blanket across the lines, from title to title, or even supplement to supplement.
And anyone who has tried to claim that
everything written about WoD
ever is anti-science is using a great deal of hyperbole (I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has said any such thing). This doesn't change the fact that it is a strong, consistent theme, one which lots of people have noticed.
The World of Darkness was a single entity very shortly afters its creation with the games sharing material, npcs, settings, metaplot and supplements. Yes, the initial idea was that they be separate "universes" sharing a single genre "Gothic Punk", a system and some concepts but that fell by the wayside pretty quickly both due to fan pressure and financial concerns such cross overs promoted cross "universe" sales. Honestly, I wish they had stuck to their guns and kept the gamelines separate settings (Hell, I wish they'd done with Exalted) since several of the endemic problems with the WoD stemmed from cramming everything into one setting (conflicting cosmologies for one).
I agree with you Nexus. Interestingly, that's *almost* what they did with NWoD's Hunter: The Vigil. But they came up with a fairly useful alternative in having Hunter-splatbooks that had very toned-down versions of their traditional monster-splats so you could focus on the Hunters.
In many ways it was a modern-throwback to their pre-Werewolf Vampire Citybooks (Milwaukee By Night) that just statted up Werewolves with Vampire stat-blocks and some nifty abilities and just let it run, but it was all Vampire.
I wished they would have left it that way... but oh well.
I don't like how the Hunter: The Hunter monster splats were done. As far as the core three versions I am concern. Vampire is too powerful with it 50 willpower at blood potency five and werewolves to weak with the slow essence growth. Witches are perfectly fine in the absolute middle customize magic system.
Quote from: Nexus;911463The World of Darkness was a single entity very shortly afters its creation with the games sharing material, npcs, settings, metaplot and supplements. Yes, the initial idea was that they be separate "universes" sharing a single genre "Gothic Punk", a system and some concepts but that fell by the wayside pretty quickly both due to fan pressure and finacial concerns, cross overs promoted cross "universe" sales. I wish they did stick to their guns and keep them separate settings (Hell, I wish they'd done with Exalted) since several of the endemic problems with the WoD stemmed from cramming everything into one setting (conflicting cosmologies for one).
If I remember correctly, the first edition of Vampire, Werewolf and Mage were designed to be separate universes. When the 2nd Edition came out in '92, they kept the same mechanics that were unique to each type of supernatural and simply said "Here, they all work together now." and left players to their own devices. Then the Revised Edition came out, with more of the 'They all work together, really!" BS, but tried to make it work in their oddly bumbling sort of way that again, didn't really change how they were supposed to work back in 91, despite having 6 years from the Second Edition to get their crap together.
Changling and the rest were pretty much bolted on haphazardly and in between the various editions and revisions.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;911511If I remember correctly, the first edition of Vampire, Werewolf and Mage were designed to be separate universes. When the 2nd Edition came out in '92, they kept the same mechanics that were unique to each type of supernatural and simply said "Here, they all work together now." and left players to their own devices. Then the Revised Edition came out, with more of the 'They all work together, really!" BS, but tried to make it work in their oddly bumbling sort of way that again, didn't really change how they were supposed to work back in 91, despite having 6 years from the Second Edition to get their crap together.
Changling and the rest were pretty much bolted on haphazardly and in between the various editions and revisions.
That meshes up closely to how I recall it.
The took place more or less in the same universe but they didn't really seem to be written to cross over or play together. Werewolf seemed to assume that the PCs would all be werewolves and that vampires would only appear as NPC antagonists using the simplified rules in the Werewolf. Certainly, there was no allowance for Vampire PCs in either the rules or the fluff. Of course, one of my players immediately wanted to play a vampire anyway.
They eventually came up with crossover rules but they were always a muddled mess. Some types like Wraiths and Changelings never played well with the others no matter what they did with the rules. It's hard to do a crossover game when some of the PCs live at least partly in a world that the others can't see or interact with.
Has Arms of the Chosen or the Dragonblooded hardback been released yet? Any word on them if they haven't?
Quote from: Nexus;926166Has Arms of the Chosen or the Dragonblooded hardback been released yet? Any word on them if they haven't?
Looks like The Realm and Dragon-Blooded are in second draft.
Arms of the Chosen is listed in the Development section of their Monday updates.
Quote from: Michael Gray;926186Looks like The Realm and Dragon-Blooded are in second draft.
And have been since this time last year.
It will be very interesting to see how the next Exalted Kickstart project will do. I am pretty sure they will make their goal, no problems, because there are enough fans of the new edition. But i am also pretty sure that it will be way below what the Devs might (still?) hope for. Because a lot of people got burned by the first KS and the behavior of the Dev. crew and/or are just disappointed with the new rules.
I myself have to fight my inner complete-ist...i wanted to have all the splat books in KS Deluxe variant (that was my intention right before the core KS went live) but honestly, after the disaster that are the new rules and how the core KS was handled and just how the Dev. crew is acting around fans and/or customers... there's no way i am going to throw any more money their way (even though i'd have liked a complete set).
Quote from: Michael Gray;926186Looks like The Realm and Dragon-Blooded are in second draft.
Arms of the Chosen is listed in the Development section of their Monday updates.
Thanks. Looks like I had the release order backwards. I thought Arms of the Chosen was going to be the first thing out. But the DB stuff being earlier does make sense. Mainly I want to see the discussion about them to get some idea about the new fluff for the Realm. Call it morbid curiosity. :)
Quote from: Skywalker;926275And have been since this time last year.
Damn. Its going to be a decade getting everything out this rate.
Exalted's delays will be delayed.
Scion KS suggests that the Ex3 KS failures will have no significant impact on further Ex3 KS.
Quote from: Skywalker;926332Scion KS suggests that the Ex3 KS failures will have no significant impact on further Ex3 KS.
I will believe it when I see it.
Quote from: Skywalker;926332Scion KS suggests that the Ex3 KS failures will have no significant impact on further Ex3 KS.
Why would that be? Scion is a totally different team. True, the asshat RichT is still the boss, but at least the Dev team is quiet different.
AND Scion was nowhere near the Ex KS, money wise.
Not that i disagree completely, but i'd like to see your reasoning.
There is a large crossover of fanbase. Though the teams are different, they are and have always been some overlap between them.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;926330Exalted's delays will be delayed.
*snicker*
People still care about Exalted? Didn't Godbound kill that off yet?
Quote from: CRKrueger;926406People still care about Exalted? Didn't Godbound kill that off yet?
Against the army of living zombie sheeples that will be glad to get piss on by the devs if it means they will be more "progressive" with their books? Come on now a fanatic will be a fanatic. I am amazed Godbound managed to wake people up as it is.
Though beyond a shadow of a doubt Godbound replaced both Exalted and Scion for me.
Quote from: CRKrueger;926406People still care about Exalted? Didn't Godbound kill that off yet?
The fans play it for the story. Converts are moving their Exalted campaigns to the Godbound rules.
Quote from: Snowman0147;926428Against the army of living zombie sheeples that will be glad to get piss on by the devs if it means they will be more "progressive" with their books? Come on now a fanatic will be a fanatic. I am amazed Godbound managed to wake people up as it is.
Though beyond a shadow of a doubt Godbound replaced both Exalted and Scion for me.
I still like Qwixalted. I might convert to Godbound at some point, though.
Don't mind Qwixalted at all, but you got to be crazy to buy Exalted 3rd Edition at this point. Given how the devs treat their players, used stolen art, and many other reasons.
Quote from: Snowman0147;926724Don't mind Qwixalted at all, but you got to be crazy to buy Exalted 3rd Edition at this point. Given how the devs treat their players, used stolen art, and many other reasons.
I don't really care about snotty developers or cribbed art. I am not buying it partly because I have no players for it, partly because of problems I have had with Storyteller for this sort of high power game (Exalted or Scion) and partly because it's $30 for a pdf copy. It's not a huge amount of money but it's enough to deter me from giving it a try given the other factors.
Quote from: Snowman0147;926724Don't mind Qwixalted at all, but you got to be crazy to buy Exalted 3rd Edition at this point. Given how the devs treat their players, used stolen art, and many other reasons.
I don't contest that. They're crazy.
Exalted still has a huge advantage over Godbound in terms of background. Customers really like that. Where they done screwed the pooch is depowering the PCs to keep them from remaking the world in their image, even though that's the entire point of mythic adventures.
Unless you use Godbound to run Exalted. Then background is the same.
Quote from: CRKrueger;926406People still care about Exalted? Didn't Godbound kill that off yet?
Never underestimate the sunk cost fallacy.
Quote from: Skywalker;926873Unless you use Godbound to run Exalted. Then background is the same.
I assume most of those people are old fans of Exalted. Given that it has so much developed background in the previous editions, how many people using Godbound for Exalted need to buy all the core books again just for the setting?
Quote from: Baulderstone;926898I assume most of those people are old fans of Exalted. Given that it has so much developed background in the previous editions, how many people using Godbound for Exalted need to buy all the core books again just for the setting?
Many if not most of the old fans would simply still have the books, and after the Exalted Bundles I doubt background material is an issue;).
Nexus, dood, why are you doing this to yourself? Let it go. Don't make me sing the song... Please.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;926954Nexus, dood, why are you doing this to yourself? Let it go. Don't make me sing the song... Please.
What do you mean?
Quote from: Nexus;926957What do you mean?
You keep coming and I get the impression that you're expecting that OP Exalted will deliver resembling something fun and good, even if it's something small. And yet, we all know that they won't. They're so far up their own asses that they should look like some sort of weird, abulatory Mobius/Escher puzzle.
To be honest, I think it's time this game line got let go for those who want it, and stick with the older editions.
Quote from: AsenRG;926899Many if not most of the old fans would simply still have the books, and after the Exalted Bundles I doubt background material is an issue;).
That was the point I was trying to make. I expect most people converting Exalted to Godbound have as much setting as they can use. More probably. I personally felt that Exalted crossed that line where the weight of setting material went from an asset to a hindrance somewhere during first edition.
Quote from: Baulderstone;926898I assume most of those people are old fans of Exalted. Given that it has so much developed background in the previous editions, how many people using Godbound for Exalted need to buy all the core books again just for the setting?
I still have all my Exalted books, and all the fans that I know locally still have theirs too.
On saying that, for our Godbound game, we are currently using only chapters 1 and 2 of Exalted 3 as our setting bible, so we can free ourselves of canon except where we chose to bring it in.
Quote from: Skywalker;926995I still have all my Exalted books, and all the fans that I know locally still have theirs too.
On saying that, for our Godbound game, we are currently using only chapters 1 and 2 of Exalted 3 as our setting bible, so we can free ourselves of canon except where we chose to bring it in.
Okay, I can see the sense in that. Using two chapters as a fresh baseline rather than just throwing the 3E stuff on top of the pile of setting info from the previous editions seems a reasonable approach.
I like the 3E Map. I like some of the basics of the new setting. The Southeast has something going on now with the Dreaming Sea. Exigents (One Shot Exalts) are fantastic ideas and readily usable in Godbound. But that's as far as I'm taking 3E, stealing the basic setting elements I like and throwing out the cruft and the specificity that doesn't work for my games. Godbound has replaced Exalted and Scion for sure, and I'm thinking about how to use it for WHFRP and WH40KRP and a weird ass Spelljammer game as well.
Quote from: Michael Gray;927075Godbound has replaced Exalted and Scion for sure, and I'm thinking about how to use it for WHFRP and WH40KRP and a weird ass Spelljammer game as well.
Oh that is easy. Make realms as providence of a made god known as the Emperor. Use godwalkers to travel the night roads which one of them is actually a flying vessel so there goes your void ships. Make the chaos gods as uncreated night titans with daemons working for them.
Rogue Traders and Inquisition can use common mortal rules. Space Marines (in this case Realm marines) can use heroic mortal rules. Finally living saints and daemon princes use godbound rules.
Quote from: Baulderstone;927070Okay, I can see the sense in that. Using two chapters as a fresh baseline rather than just throwing the 3E stuff on top of the pile of setting info from the previous editions seems a reasonable approach.
I still pull out my Exalted books when I need a specific detail, but its been as close as the heady days of early Exalted 1e as we have been, with the bonus of super fun and simple mechanics :)
Quote from: Snowman0147;927108Oh that is easy. Make realms as providence of a made god known as the Emperor. Use godwalkers to travel the night roads which one of them is actually a flying vessel so there goes your void ships. Make the chaos gods as uncreated night titans with daemons working for them.
Rogue Traders and Inquisition can use common mortal rules. Space Marines (in this case Realm marines) can use heroic mortal rules. Finally living saints and daemon princes use godbound rules.
I'd probably actually do something along the lines of the lesser Themed Godbound for Spehss Mareens and AdMech of certain levels (Those Magi get weird yo). Rogue Traders, Inquisitors, basic AdMech and Black Crusaders of the mortal stripe would get the Heroic mortal rules. Demon Princes and Living Saints seem more like things you fight than things you are. You might become one in time.
EDIT: That'd be for an 'everything and the kitchen sink' approach. For a deep dive, Words are stupidly extensible. I can see a Deathwatch game having Words for your Role (Tactical, Sternguard, Assault, TechMarine, Librarian, etc.), Chapter, and a Generic Space Marine Word. You don't have to care what an Inquisitor looks like in PC rules because they don't use PC rules.
Quote from: CRKrueger;926406People still care about Exalted? Didn't Godbound kill that off yet?
Gods of the Fall did it for me.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;926960You keep coming and I get the impression that you're expecting that OP Exalted will deliver resembling something fun and good, even if it's something small. And yet, we all know that they won't. They're so far up their own asses that they should look like some sort of weird, abulatory Mobius/Escher puzzle.
To be honest, I think it's time this game line got let go for those who want it, and stick with the older editions.
Nah, its more a morbid curiosity thing that anything else. I knew the line was moving in directions I didn't like in late 1st edition. I got my hopes up a bit with 2nd then the trebd in the fluff and mechanics continued., 3rd was a the punchline of a bad joke I pulled on myself by getting interested in the game is the first place. Now I just watch to see how many of my cynical predictions come true (and to be honest, a bit of schadenfreude as issues surface from more and more being bolted onto a rickety core. Yeah, its petty).
Sad thing is, I still really like the core ideas and setting. I've even still running a game..sorta. We mostly ignore mechanics as much as possible. Need to find a good system to run it then buckle down and convert.
Quote from: CRKrueger;926406People still care about Exalted? Didn't Godbound kill that off yet?
Much of the energy about Exalted appears to waned on rpg.net. There aren't several Ex threads and the main one has slowed down considerably, especially compared to the Godbound designer thread. Some of it might be fatigue. Exalted is pretty long in tooth as rpgs go, has three edition under its belt and the fluff hasn't changed that much. Combined with e slow publishing the lessened discussion isn't surprising. There's not much to talk about right now. But the fan base seems to be just as dedicated and intensely loyal so its not going anywhere anytime soon, IMO. Things will probably pick up considerably when the DB books drop.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;928057Gods of the Fall did it for me.
How is that game? I've heard it's cool. ;)
Looks like there might be some movement on the Exalted from. Some KS supporters mentioned getting notifications to check their mailing addresses.
There was some preview art posted. I think it was for an upcoming release called Jumpstart(?) which I've been told is a revamped Quickstart type product.
Here's the new art. I admit it is good.
(http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Exalted_Three-Suns-Standing_final_v3.jpg)
Does anyone have advice for representing Nocturnals (the REAL adamant exalted) in Qwixalted? I wrote a brief treatment for them but I wonder whether they would be fine using the Sidereal mechanics as is. I'm also adding considering a new lost and found exalted for soulsteel representing the dead incarna who previously handled reincarnation.
That's much better art than most if the core. Still unclear how Panther punches people instead of shanking them with those fuck huge blades on his arms.
Yeah,I got my last call to confirm my mailing address, but after 3+ years of waiting, and reading the PDF, I'll be damned if I'm not that excited.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;945927That's much better art than most if the core. Still unclear how Panther punches people instead of shanking them with those fuck huge blades on his arms.
But the more important issue is why is the BLACK man's body on display like a piece of meat compared to those fully clothed white women? I'm triggered. :D
Quote from: Nexus;945955But the more important issue is why is the BLACK man's body on display like a piece of meat compared to those fully clothed white women? I'm triggered. :D
The real question is how the heck did his chest tattoo get knocked off-center like that? It's the only real blemish in an otherwise excellent piece (which I like more than most of the art in the core book).
If the rest of the art in the line is of a similar quality, it'll definitely be a step in the right direction.
Quote from: Brand55;945963The real question is how the heck did his chest tattoo get knocked off-center like that? It's the only real blemish in an otherwise excellent piece (which I like more than most of the art in the core book).
If the rest of the art in the line is of a similar quality, it'll definitely be a step in the right direction.
Stop denying my experiences!
But it is a good piece. I didn't notice that chest tattoo issue until you mentioned it. I think I can let it go though even now I don't find it that noticeable.*
*At least its no where near as bad as Capt America's chest in the infamous Liefeild image (https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/cap.jpg).
Quote from: Nexus;945964*At least its no where near as bad as Capt America's chest in the infamous Liefeild image (https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/cap.jpg).
I shudder to think what could possibly top some of Liefield's worst atrocities. An epileptic orangutan with a mildly sharpened stick could produce more accurate images than some of the characters I've seen from him.
Though if you think the above picture is unfair, just be happy they didn't put Panther in a banana hammock. Of course, they might be planning that for an upcoming book...
Quote from: Nexus;945964Capt America's chest in the infamous Liefeild image (https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/cap.jpg).
WTF is that thing:D?
Quote from: Brand55;945979Though if you think the above picture is unfair, just be happy they didn't put Panther in a banana hammock. Of course, they might be planning that for an upcoming book...
Nah, I'm fine with the picture. Just making fun of what the reaction would be to a similarly clad female character or one like sig Dawn fighting in an improvised thong. Hell there would some outcry over a woman in a outfit that showed her midriff or too much leg.
Quote from: Nexus;946010Nah, I'm fine with the picture. Just making fun of what the reaction would be to a similarly clad female character or one like sig Dawn fighting in an improvised thong. Hell there would some outcry over a woman in a outfit that showed her midriff or too much leg.
The mockery strong
in that one is, and easy
targets abound.
Quote from: Nexus;945955But the more important issue is why is the BLACK man's body on display like a piece of meat compared to those fully clothed white women? I'm triggered. :D
Don't forget the boob plate and high heels. Somewhere there's a snowflake being triggered because of the patriarchal overtones.
And did you notice how they walk behind him?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;946348Don't forget the boob plate and high heels. Somewhere there's a snowflake being triggered because of the patriarchal overtones.
And did you notice how they walk behind him?
Sad/silly thing is some one likely will become incensed about those details at some point.
Quote from: AliasiSudonomo;20842473The news makes me unhappy, but just as one can get a classic D&D experience through many OSR-style games, we're beyond the point where the only place to get your horror gaming on is White Wolf.
Even if the Chronicles of Darkness games were to be delicensed this very moment, we still have Onyx Path's 20th books in existence, the CoD books, and the forthcoming Storypath system games, and that's if one wants to still throw buckets of ten-siders. (Honestly, given how poorly the nuWhite Wolf guys have spoken of it, I'm scared Exalted may no longer be a thing. Well. More than it's not a thing now, with various unfortunate events causing a sort of release paralysis on the public-facing end.)
Does anyone know anything about the comment I put in bold?
I think nothing. That rumor is going around for quite some time and nothing has come of it so far. I for one would be very happy if the new WW management would take Exalted away from the current team and give it to someone with a bit more design-capabilities. Although, if that were the case, i fear we would just get another storyteller bullshit for it instead of a bold move to really try and match the system to the setting/game and not vice versa.
Quote from: Anglachel;946513I think nothing. That rumor is going around for quite some time and nothing has come of it so far. I for one would be very happy if the new WW management would take Exalted away from the current team and give it to someone with a bit more design-capabilities. Although, if that were the case, i fear we would just get another storyteller bullshit for it instead of a bold move to really try and match the system to the setting/game and not vice versa.
There isn't a better team that wants the job, though.
Quote from: Nexus;946480Sad/silly thing is some one likely will become incensed about those details at some point.
Probably near the beginning of Exalted 4e, judging by the critics levelled against the cover of the 1e and 2e corebooks by the time 3e was near;).
Quote from: Anglachel;946513I think nothing. That rumor is going around for quite some time and nothing has come of it so far. I for one would be very happy if the new WW management would take Exalted away from the current team and give it to someone with a bit more design-capabilities. Although, if that were the case, i fear we would just get another storyteller bullshit for it instead of a bold move to really try and match the system to the setting/game and not vice versa.
Probably if anything it would be under the Storypath(?) they're using for the new Aeon games. I still haven't gotten an opportunity to look at this free teaser about that.
Quote from: Cruxador;946548There isn't a better team that wants the job, though.
Really? How would you know?
Considering the "quality" of the current team, it's not so hard to find a better one. Although that might not be saying much. But still, i think there is much potential in the game. If they threw out all the ST baggage and really went for what Exalted tells you it wants to be, this could be a stellar game.
Oh and Storypath would not cut it. That's just a convoluted ST derivate.
Quote from: Anglachel;946600Really? How would you know?
The current team is made up of whoever wanted to work on Exalted enough to do it, back when they were freelancing for 2e rather than licensing for 3e. The people we've got are the ones who stepped up.
QuoteConsidering the "quality" of the current team, it's not so hard to find a better one.
You would think so, but it turns out that most of the people willing to put in the substantial amount of work that a game requires would rather develop their own IPs.
QuoteAlthough that might not be saying much. But still, i think there is much potential in the game. If they threw out all the ST baggage and really went for what Exalted tells you it wants to be, this could be a stellar game.
Oh and Storypath would not cut it. That's just a convoluted ST derivate.
Yeah, the ideas behind Exalted are great. Nobody contests that. But everyone has their own ideas for (subjectively) better versions of it and so far nobody has made a big Exalted-buster that does everything Exalted wants to do but way better. I'm not sure anyone can, really. It's not the way that the overall market leans.
You can't do everything that Exalted wants to do, simply because some of those things are in direct contradiction to each other;).
Quote from: Anglachel;946600That's just a convoluted ST derivate.
That's what I've heard but I want to at least give it a look before making any sort of call. But I don't there will ever be an official Exalted that moves far from Storyteller. Too much love for house system by the publishers and much of the established fanbase for who the mess of charms and such IS Exalted or a big part of its appeal at least. Most of those that it doesn't work for have moved on at this point or are willing to deal with ST mechanics so there's less incentive.
Quote from: Cruxador;946770The current team is made up of whoever wanted to work on Exalted enough to do it, back when they were freelancing for 2e rather than licensing for 3e. The people we've got are the ones who stepped up.
That is true. I don't dispute that. But remember my premise. My starting point is new-WW taking the licence away from OPP and opening it up to a bid or maybe also giving it to a team they hire for it. I guess that opens up new venues and especially, in my scenario, frees it up for rebuilding. So it might garner more interest then back when it transitioned from 2e to 3e with all its restraints.
QuoteYou would think so, but it turns out that most of the people willing to put in the substantial amount of work that a game requires would rather develop their own IPs.
That might be a part of it. But still, Exalted has recognition value and is well established. I think most people can not hope to get that kind of traction with their own IP even if they tried really hard. So i still think it would be a very interesting opportunity to work on a new-Exalted.
QuoteYeah, the ideas behind Exalted are great. Nobody contests that. But everyone has their own ideas for (subjectively) better versions of it and so far nobody has made a big Exalted-buster that does everything Exalted wants to do but way better. I'm not sure anyone can, really. It's not the way that the overall market leans.
As above. And i am not convinced that that many have tried to do an Exalted-Buster yet. We have Gods of the Fall and Godbound who do a good job. But both are quite recent products. We had nothing for years and years. So i am still pretty much convinced that a well done reboot of Exalted could be a very attractive game. Or, if no reboot is possible, another try at the so called Buster. I guess Godbound is such a thing for the OSR crowd. But if your not interested in old school DnD, you're still out of luck.
Anyway, it's all just a big pile of speculation. But every now and then i just get the urge to speculate on an Exalted-done-right...because i would play the shit out of such a game :D
@ AsenRG - That has never stopped anyone from trying nonetheless :D More seriously, i know what you are getting at. But i am talking about what Exalted sold itself as in the very beginning and that it never achieved in the slightest with the rules-set it came in.
Quote from: Anglachel;946816I guess Godbound is such a thing for the OSR crowd. But if your not interested in old school DnD, you're still out of luck.
Yeah, that's the position I find myself in
Quote from: Nexus;946824Yeah, that's the position I find myself in
What would you want out of a system, specifically for Exalted? Outside the OSR I'd consider either FATE or ORE (mashing up Wild Talents characters with Reign's Company system).
Quote from: Nexus;946824Yeah, that's the position I find myself in
Might not be your cup of tea, but I put a game called Sertorius that could be in the ballpark: http://www.rpgnow.com/product/134779/Sertorius
Quote from: Cruxador;946770You would think so, but it turns out that most of the people willing to put in the substantial amount of work that a game requires would rather develop their own IPs.
That makes sense to me. I think that licensed TTRPGs are a dubious thing in the first place as far as the benefit of name recognition versus taking a profit cut in a field where almost nobody makes much money. Even if it works out, you always have the threat of losing the license, and once that license is gone, you can't even continue to sell existing product, which hurts more in the PDF era where you can normally keep your entire back catalog alive forever.
With Exalted, it's a setting that is only popular by TTRPG standards. It's also a deeply divided fanbase, both along setting and mechanical lines. Whatever approach you take, you are buying the hatred of a lot of Exalted fans by picking up the license. It's a game that people deeply love the idea of, but have usually not been happy with in its implementation. You are better off just making your own game that "evokes" Exalted if you want to sell your own take on it rather than taking on the miserable burden of the official license.
Quote from: Baulderstone;946859With Exalted, it's a setting that is only popular by TTRPG standards. It's also a deeply divided fanbase, both along setting and mechanical lines ... It's a game that people deeply love the idea of, but have usually not been happy with in its implementation.
Sounds like 7th Sea.
Quote from: Anglachel;946816I guess Godbound is such a thing for the OSR crowd. But if your not interested in old school DnD, you're still out of luck.
There have been a fair few people who have openly admitted not being into old school D&D or in the OSR crowd that would chose Godbound for Exalted. The D&D/OSR roots are a pretty light touch and only likely to trigger those people who are anti anything that suggests such roots.
As such, I think its more accurate to say that Godbound can be such a thing for anyone who isn't in the anti-OSR crowd, which is a wider group of people.
Quote from: Skywalker;946869There have been a fair few people who have openly admitted not being into old school D&D or in the OSR crowd that would chose Godbound for Exalted. The D&D/OSR roots are a pretty light touch and only likely to trigger those people who are anti anything that suggests such roots.
As such, I think its more accurate to say that Godbound can be such a thing for anyone who isn't in the anti-OSR crowd, which is a wider group of people.
"anti OSR" is a pretty antagonistic way to put it. I simply don't like those mechanics and as I mostly gm for our Exalted group I'd have to interact with them pretty constantly. I don't hate the OSR. I'm not entirely sure what it is. I don't like some of the basic aspects of the system. I am not triggered by them. Triggered usually implies frothing nerd rage and butthurt. And often an expression of contempt for the opinion its used to decry.
Disliking a system doesn't make a person a hater. Hey, I'm glad people that enjoy the mechanics have suitable resplacement but I've given "OSR/DnD" style rules more than one try.I just don't don't find them fun. And when I read Godbound the OSR touches didn't seem light to me or at least what I'd call the similarities. They're be basis on the mechanics. What is the point in playing game you don't enjoy?
Quote from: Anglachel;946816@ AsenRG - That has never stopped anyone from trying nonetheless :D
True, but you see how much success they've got, too...:)
QuoteMore seriously, i know what you are getting at. But i am talking about what Exalted sold itself as in the very beginning and that it never achieved in the slightest with the rules-set it came in.
That's exactly the problem.
You're talking about "what Exalted sold itself as in the very beginning".
Someone else is talking about "what Exalted sold itself as in the very beginning of second edition".
Yet another person is talking about "what Exalted sold itself as at the end of the second edition".
Problem is, the three have preciously little to keep them together;)!
Quote from: Skywalker;946869There have been a fair few people who have openly admitted not being into old school D&D or in the OSR crowd that would chose Godbound for Exalted. The D&D/OSR roots are a pretty light touch and only likely to trigger those people who are anti anything that suggests such roots.
As such, I think its more accurate to say that Godbound can be such a thing for anyone who isn't in the anti-OSR crowd, which is a wider group of people.
Not exactly. I'm a Godbound backer and definitely pro-OSR, to the point that I'm starting an OSR session after I post this, using the Low Fantasy RPG:).
And yet I don't want to play Godbound as-is because of the OSR elements.
Mind you, those same elements are no problem to me when I play Scarlet Heroes, which features the exact same take on the OSR part of it;).
Make no mistake, I like the powers! In fact, I am thinking of using them for another game.
I just don't like the two together. Don't ask me why, I can't define it better than "two nice tastes that totally suck together".
Then again, I don't need to use them as-is. I can use Godbound's setting just fine as an expansion of Scarlet Heroes, the rules are the same already. And I can use the Godbound powers in another game that doesn't have "native" powers. I probably will, some day, so I am going to play Godbound - just not all of its parts at once:D!
Quote from: Nexus;946902"anti OSR" is a pretty antagonistic way to put it.
Cool. I didn't mean it to be antagonistic. However, I do think that categorising Godbound as being just for "the OSR crowd" and those that like OSR D&D seems to dismissive of a good chunk of the fandom it has created. Maybe we can just ignore both statements as I don't think generalisations like this really help :)
Quote from: Skywalker;946912However, I do think that categorising Godbound as being just for "the OSR crowd" and those that like OSR D&D seems to dismissive of a good chunk of the fandom it has created. Maybe we can just ignore both statements as I don't think generalisations like this really help :)
As you were quoting me, i don't think you read what i wrote. I wasn't claiming it is just for the OSR crowd. I do think it can be an Exalted buster for the OSR crowd, but i was not saying "only" or anything to that effect. Also, i still hold to my statement that if you do not like old school DnD, you are out of luck. Because, as Nexus said, the mechanics are clearly still old school DnD...and that can not be explained away.
I do think Godbound is a neat little game, and i would prefer giving money to its creator before i ever give any $$ to the Ex3e team again, but i still do not see myself playing Godbound as my Exalted fix. It's not my cup of tea, mechanically.
Quote from: Anglachel;946916Also, i still hold to my statement that if you do not like old school DnD, you are out of luck.
I did read what you posted, and I don't think the above statement is accurate. Obviously, how much old school mechanics will cause an issue will differ from person to person, so this may true for you. But I have several players in my group, and there seems to be plenty of others report the same on RPGnet, that aren't fans of old school D&D and are yet still finding that Godbound works just fine for them. As to why, this again may vary from person to person, but there are a lot of mechanics blended into Godbound that remove it from a pure OSR base to some extent.
Quote from: Anglachel;946816That might be a part of it. But still, Exalted has recognition value and is well established. I think most people can not hope to get that kind of traction with their own IP even if they tried really hard. So i still think it would be a very interesting opportunity to work on a new-Exalted.
People don't make games because they think it's going to be a good financial opportunity, though. They do it to make what they want to make. Being successful isn't important if it's not success at what you wanted to do.
QuoteAnd i am not convinced that that many have tried to do an Exalted-Buster yet.
Yeah because it turns out it's really damn hard. And it's been out of style for a while too, grit has been the in thing and we're only recently swinging the other way.
QuoteAnyway, it's all just a big pile of speculation. But every now and then i just get the urge to speculate on an Exalted-done-right...because i would play the shit out of such a game :D
Hey, you can always make it yourself, eh? Actually, I might do high-powered fantasy for my next project. That's coming after my current one though, and I'm definitely missing my end of march deadline on that.
Quote from: The Butcher;946825What would you want out of a system, specifically for Exalted? Outside the OSR I'd consider either FATE or ORE (mashing up Wild Talents characters with Reign's Company system).
Mine would be on an exploding d6 system probably, with freeformish sorcery based on elements and specific concepts applied to a laundry list of roll-based effects. Combat... Maybe something similar? Maybe a bit more Riddle of Steel with a two-part round but I wouldn't want dice pools as big and it doesn't work well otherwise, and a lot of the details don't fit well. I dunno, something to think about. For social, I've no idea what basic mechanic to use, that's an area where I actually might look to Exalted for some inspiration.
As for exalt type analogues, the base should just be a deified hero, something like the paragon from Dungeons: the Dragoning. But I could probably design something good for primordial deities (Sun, Moon, Earth, Sky, Darkness) and something analogous to liminal with genius loci and stars and whatever. Maybe also some for dead and evil gods, like the Sea, Drums, some dragons and some fae/lovecraftian stuff. Well, probably not seriously working on it before the summer though, at the earliest.
Quote from: Skywalker;946919I did read what you posted, and I don't think the above statement is accurate. Obviously, how much old school mechanics will cause an issue will differ from person to person, so this may true for you. But I have several players in my group, and there seems to be plenty of others report the same on RPGnet, that aren't fans of old school D&D and are yet still finding that Godbound works just fine for them. As to why, this again may vary from person to person, but there are a lot of mechanics blended into Godbound that remove it from a pure OSR base to some extent.
Yes, yes, the old "tastes may vary" sure. BUT...
not being a fan of old school DnD and
not liking old school DnD is not the same. At least in my reading of it. There are very very few mechanics that i am fan of, and i play a lot of other games nonetheless. So you could say i am playing a lot of games that i am not a fan of. But i am not playing games that i actively dislike. So yes, big difference in my book.
@ Cruxador - Well let me know when your finished with your high-powered fantasy game. I'd be interested to take a look.
Quote from: Anglachel;946816That might be a part of it. But still, Exalted has recognition value and is well established. I think most people can not hope to get that kind of traction with their own IP even if they tried really hard. So i still think it would be a very interesting opportunity to work on a new-Exalted.
Speaking purely for myself, if White Wolf were to offer me God-Kingship of Exalted with complete carte blanche to design a new edition and royalty terms as generous as anyone could expect, I'd still take a pass on it, because Exalted is a man-killing game to design for.
To produce anything like a system that the existing Exalted fanbase would embrace as "Exalted" requires an absolutely savage amount of design and testing, and it will still fail to satisfy a significant chunk of the fanbase. Which, for a game as popular as Exalted is and given the type of superfans it attracts, will most certainly result in deranged jeremiads against the designers, their pets, and their favorite colors. Any attempt to evade this issue by redesigning Exalted to fit a different kind of relationship between the players and the mechanics will just infuriate a different section of the fanbase and alienate a good deal more of them, as the flaws of Exalted are inextricable from the exact things that make it so fun for many people.
Therefore, acquiring the license for Exalted is essentially a matter of signing up to be shat on continuously for several years in order to build someone else's IP for the inevitable day when you lose the license and can no longer sell what you've spent the past X years being shat on in order to make. For this you will be paid wages that a junior IT drone would find unappealing, and acquire domain-specific expertise that is almost entirely useless outside of the license. And when the license does end your odds of translating that achievement into an equal or better new deal with another game are, shall we say,
not great.
That's not a good deal.
Until game publishing is able to shell out some real money to designers and producers, a competent game designer is almost always better off building their own IP and collecting 100% of the profits on modest evergreen products. Licensing IP simply cannot pay off adequately on the time and effort sunk into products that will inevitably become unsalable within a few years.
In the old days, when POD and online sales weren't practical, a line was effectively dead in 4-5 years anyway, because all the books were out of the retail channel by then and it probably wasn't worth the money to reprint it. Even if it was still kicking, another cycle was usually plenty to exhaust interest in the game, and the residual fandom wasn't sufficient economic prompting to run a third printing. If your license died in five years, it was annoying, but you could expect to have already sucked most of the juice out of the market by then. Even back then it was an iffy proposition, but you had a chance.
Now? Now there's no reason why your latest magnum opus shouldn't be continuously available on Amazon/DTRPG from now until the heat death of the universe. That residual fanbase no longer requires a full-dress print run to service, and sales can flare back up at any time since you've got your entire back catalog available with a few clicks. Volunteering to turn off those products after a few years now makes for a real, painful cost, and it's not one I can recommend for any IP I can currently think of.
Quote from: Anglachel;946999@ Cruxador - Well let me know when your finished with your high-powered fantasy game. I'd be interested to take a look.
Eh, it's just an idea now. If I finish it, it won't be for years.
Quote from: Anglachel;946999Yes, yes, the old "tastes may vary" sure. BUT...not being a fan of old school DnD and not liking old school DnD is not the same. At least in my reading of it. There are very very few mechanics that i am fan of, and i play a lot of other games nonetheless. So you could say i am playing a lot of games that i am not a fan of. But i am not playing games that i actively dislike. So yes, big difference in my book.
For me the downsides to Godbound are the use of levels, hit points/dice, Armor class, the general assumptions in combat and, though I don't think these are "OSR" specific the lack of a social system or "skills" as a distinct thing. I did likw how a number of charms and abilities along with the ability to make general changes to the world were subsumed under Influence/Dominion. Its more abstract while no being totally fiat driven.
Quote from: SineNomine;947033Therefore, acquiring the license for Exalted is essentially a matter of signing up to be shat on continuously for several years in order to build someone else's IP for the inevitable day when you lose the license and can no longer sell what you've spent the past X years being shat on in order to make.
I wonder how much Onyx Path is prepping for this, and not just with Exalted. I know I'm tempted to go out and buy those last few POD products I've been eyeballing.
Quote from: SineNomine;947033Speaking purely for myself, if White Wolf were to offer me God-Kingship of Exalted with complete carte blanche to design a new edition and royalty terms as generous as anyone could expect, I'd still take a pass on it, because Exalted is a man-killing game to design for.
To produce anything like a system that the existing Exalted fanbase would embrace as "Exalted" requires an absolutely savage amount of design and testing, and it will still fail to satisfy a significant chunk of the fanbase. Which, for a game as popular as Exalted is and given the type of superfans it attracts, will most certainly result in deranged jeremiads against the designers, their pets, and their favorite colors. Any attempt to evade this issue by redesigning Exalted to fit a different kind of relationship between the players and the mechanics will just infuriate a different section of the fanbase and alienate a good deal more of them, as the flaws of Exalted are inextricable from the exact things that make it so fun for many people.
Therefore, acquiring the license for Exalted is essentially a matter of signing up to be shat on continuously for several years in order to build someone else's IP for the inevitable day when you lose the license and can no longer sell what you've spent the past X years being shat on in order to make. For this you will be paid wages that a junior IT drone would find unappealing, and acquire domain-specific expertise that is almost entirely useless outside of the license. And when the license does end your odds of translating that achievement into an equal or better new deal with another game are, shall we say, not great.
That's not a good deal.
Until game publishing is able to shell out some real money to designers and producers, a competent game designer is almost always better off building their own IP and collecting 100% of the profits on modest evergreen products. Licensing IP simply cannot pay off adequately on the time and effort sunk into products that will inevitably become unsalable within a few years.
In the old days, when POD and online sales weren't practical, a line was effectively dead in 4-5 years anyway, because all the books were out of the retail channel by then and it probably wasn't worth the money to reprint it. Even if it was still kicking, another cycle was usually plenty to exhaust interest in the game, and the residual fandom wasn't sufficient economic prompting to run a third printing. If your license died in five years, it was annoying, but you could expect to have already sucked most of the juice out of the market by then. Even back then it was an iffy proposition, but you had a chance.
Now? Now there's no reason why your latest magnum opus shouldn't be continuously available on Amazon/DTRPG from now until the heat death of the universe. That residual fanbase no longer requires a full-dress print run to service, and sales can flare back up at any time since you've got your entire back catalog available with a few clicks. Volunteering to turn off those products after a few years now makes for a real, painful cost, and it's not one I can recommend for any IP I can currently think of.
And once again, the very author of Godbound gives us an insider's look.
And BTW, the part in bold is what I was driving at, earlier.
Quote from: san dee jota;947047I wonder how much Onyx Path is prepping for this, and not just with Exalted. I know I'm tempted to go out and buy those last few POD products I've been eyeballing.
They did send Exalted 1e to the Bundle of Holding, so obviously they realize it.
Doesn't Qwixalted address most of the problems with the rules? What flaws does it have and how could those be addressed?
Quote from: Anglachel;946999Yes, yes, the old "tastes may vary" sure. BUT...not being a fan of old school DnD and not liking old school DnD is not the same. At least in my reading of it. There are very very few mechanics that i am fan of, and i play a lot of other games nonetheless. So you could say i am playing a lot of games that i am not a fan of. But i am not playing games that i actively dislike. So yes, big difference in my book.
Cool. As said, I can totally understand that Godbound is not for someone who dislikes anything related to the OSR.
Your comment does confirm my original response though, in that you are only really out of luck if you are someone who does not like old school D&D mechanics. In your original statement, you said that you were out of luck if you just weren't interested in old school D&D. It may be splitting hairs, but I think there is a significant gap between a person who actively dislikes something from a person who is just disinterested in that thing. This was why I found your original statement dismissive of a good chunk of the fandom Godbound has created.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;947064Doesn't Qwixalted address most of the problems with the rules? What flaws does it have and how could those be addressed?
Qwixalted is so far removed from the official Exalted system that I would characterise it more as providing an alternate ruleset rather than fixing the existing one. As with all suggestions for alternate rulesets, it is a matter of taste as to whether it scratches your preferences for Exalted.
Now what if some one buys off the IP and becomes the new owner?
Quote from: Snowman0147;947153Now what if some one buys off the IP and becomes the new owner?
Best case scenario: D&D 5th.
Worst case scenario: D&D 4th. ;)
jg
Quote from: AsenRG;947052They did send Exalted 1e to the Bundle of Holding, so obviously they realize it.
True, but I meant more in the sense of "how much do we want to spend developed Exalted 3ed and our two WoD lines, when we have to pay nuWhite Wolf for them and... aw crap, there's a witch hunt going on over this Zak S. shit. 'No, we have not now nor have we ever been affiliated with Zak S., and effective immediately we will sever ties with anyone who has employed him, sold him goods or services, or would consider doing so.'"
Seriously though, -eventually-, for one set of reasons or another, Onyx Path will either buy those licenses (unlikely, or they'd already have done so) or stop bothering with them.
Quote from: san dee jota;947209True, but I meant more in the sense of "how much do we want to spend developed Exalted 3ed and our two WoD lines, when we have to pay nuWhite Wolf for them and... aw crap, there's a witch hunt going on over this Zak S. shit. 'No, we have not now nor have we ever been affiliated with Zak S., and effective immediately we will sever ties with anyone who has employed him, sold him goods or services, or would consider doing so.'"
Seriously though, -eventually-, for one set of reasons or another, Onyx Path will either buy those licenses (unlikely, or they'd already have done so) or stop bothering with them.
Well, it would be funny if that was to happen due to a witch hunt.
Quote from: AsenRG;947210Well, it would be funny if that was to happen due to a witch hunt.
The question is... does Zak S weigh more than a duck?
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947211The question is... does Zak S weigh more than a duck?
Judging by pictures, probably yes, but I'm not sure I understand the context.
Quote from: AsenRG;947214Judging by pictures, probably yes, but I'm not sure I understand the context.
Sweet mother of god. A person on an RPG-devoted forum who hasn't seen the movie!?!?
Edit: :D
Quote from: AsenRG;947210Well, it would be funny if that was to happen due to a witch hunt.
Honestly, I doubt Onyx Path would care to that degree unless they were already on the fence about dropping the licenses, or knew the licenses would soon be pulled/priced out of renewal anyway.
Quote from: AsenRG;947214Judging by pictures, probably yes, but I'm not sure I understand the context.
Monty Python and the Holy Grail, the "Witch Scene".
Quote from: san dee jota;947218Sweet mother of god. A person on an RPG-devoted forum who hasn't seen the movie!?!?
Edit: :D
Much as it might surprise you, yes:).
Quote from: san dee jota;947219Honestly, I doubt Onyx Path would care to that degree unless they were already on the fence about dropping the licenses, or knew the licenses would soon be pulled/priced out of renewal anyway.
I doubt it as well, that's why it would be funny if it were to happen.
Quote from: CRKrueger;947221Monty Python and the Holy Grail, the "Witch Scene".
Thanks, that explains it - I don't watch Monthu Python;)!
Quote from: AsenRG;947229Thanks, that explains it - I don't watch Monthu Python;)!
Honestly, the Holy Grail and the Life of Brian are both well worth a watch.
Quote from: san dee jota;947233Honestly, the Holy Grail and the Life of Brian are both well worth a watch.
Life of Brian is awesome. Unfortunately a lot of their work got ruined for folks by people quoting it all the time.
Quote from: AsenRG;947229Thanks, that explains it - I don't watch Monthu Python;)!
I'm generally not a fan either - and even 1/2 of Holy Grail got at best an eye-roll from me - but that one probably deserves a watch. There are enough clever bits to make it worth putting up with the groaners.
I didn't even like Life of Brian - which is the other one with seemingly broader appeal. ("A man dressed as a woman as his MOM!?!? And he/she is a whore!? That's hysterical!" *heavy sigh*)
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947236I'm generally not a fan either - and even 1/2 of Holy Grail got at best an eye-roll from me - but that one probably deserves a watch. There are enough clever bits to make it worth putting up with the groaners.
I didn't even like Life of Brian - which is the other one with seemingly broader appeal. ("A man dressed as a woman as his MOM!?!? And he/she is a whore!? That's hysterical!" *heavy sigh*)
Aw, come on. It gave us this bit:
[video=youtube;QereR0CViMY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY[/youtube]
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947236I didn't even like Life of Brian - which is the other one with seemingly broader appeal. ("A man dressed as a woman as his MOM!?!? And he/she is a whore!? That's hysterical!" *heavy sigh*)
Seriously? That's what you got out of it?
Nothing about the proper declention of graffiti, or arguments over who the true rebels were... just... they had one of their troupe playing across gender so... heavy sigh I'm assuming because sexist?
Do you have the same heavy sigh for those ESPN commercials where the woman is in full Thor regalia, complete with beard?
You must be a lot of fun at parties.
Quote from: Spike;947268Nothing about the proper declention of graffiti, or arguments over who the true rebels were... just... they had one of their troupe playing across gender so... heavy sigh I'm assuming because sexist?
No - I don't think that it was sexist. I just didn't find it funny.
Just because we have a different sense of humor doesn't make me a SJW.
History of the world is damn funny as well.
Quote from: san dee jota;947233Honestly, the Holy Grail and the Life of Brian are both well worth a watch.
Probably, but see below:).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;947235Life of Brian is awesome. Unfortunately a lot of their work got ruined for folks by people quoting it all the time.
Yeah, that's exactly my case. I also officially dock XP from players for quoting something I can recognize as Monthy Python, because interrupting the game isn't what good players do IMO.
I think that's why my gaming tables are mostly MonthyPython-free:D!
Quote from: san dee jota;947247Aw, come on. It gave us this bit:
[video=youtube;QereR0CViMY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY[/youtube]
Great, but see above;).
Quote from: Warboss Squee;947348History of the world is damn funny as well.
True, but it' also true that people who don't find it funny aren't necessarily SJWs and might simply have a different approach to humour.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;947288No - I don't think that it was sexist. I just didn't find it funny.
Just because we have a different sense of humor doesn't make me a SJW.
Not finding it funny wasn't what triggered me, it was the so put upon
, juxtaposed with the mentioned unfunny joke. To be honest I'm not a terrible fan of cross-dressing humor myself, but I generally don't when someone does it. I just wait for a joke I do find funny. Maybe it would have been less triggering to ... though perhaps even better to ?
Quote from: AsenRG;947426Great, but see above;).
You got me, but it -is- a good bit!
Quote from: Skywalker;947068Cool. As said, I can totally understand that Godbound is not for someone who dislikes anything related to the OSR.
Your comment does confirm my original response though, in that you are only really out of luck if you are someone who does not like old school D&D mechanics. In your original statement, you said that you were out of luck if you just weren't interested in old school D&D. It may be splitting hairs, but I think there is a significant gap between a person who actively dislikes something from a person who is just disinterested in that thing. This was why I found your original statement dismissive of a good chunk of the fandom Godbound has created.
Fair enough. I went back and i did indeed say not interested in in my first post. For me, i am not interested in games if i do not like them. But i admit that i was more clear in my second post. Or to put it another way, i understand your reading of my first post and how you could interpret it the way you did. And just to be clear, i did not mean it the way your read it.
Anyway, much water down the river...i guess this discussion is done and we have "upgraded" to talk about Monty Python :rolleyes:
It took me all week, but I finally read all the way through this thread. Say what you will of Exalted, but it certainly gets people talking. Usually talking about how much it annoys them, yes, but talking. :p
I can report that my first session run with my True20/Godbound/Exalted 2E system went... surprisingly well, actually. I may have accidentally invented my own ideal game. :eek: The players mainly reacted favourably, too - they never had to interact that much with the system, because I handled most of the number-crunching for them (the spoiled bastards! :p ), but they still noticed that things were a lot less clunky and fiddly. Also, they completely avoided the boss fight I had planned through clever planning and creative use of circumstances, which I seem to understand is very much the OSR way. :D
I'm also setting up an Alchemical game that use the Godbound rules straight off (with a few minor modifications, e.g., the fact that Alchemicals can change their Charm loadout between sessions). It's looking promising so far - it will be a bit more high-powered than Alchemicals are in their own system, but I suppose I can live with that - since they'll only ever be up against mortals, spirits and other Alchemicals, it's not like there's a balance issue, anyway. And I do have to give Godbound great props for providing support for doing pretty much everything I've tried to do in Exalted before and had to struggle against the mechanics to handle.
In essence, Exalted 3E can take its 70-buck pricetag and shove it up its papery ass! :D My 2E collection gives me more fluff than I'll ever need, and I've got access to crunch that isn't actively painful to use. I'm all set.
Quote from: Baeraad;947509In essence, Exalted 3E can take its 70-buck pricetag and shove it up its papery ass! :D My 2E collection gives me more fluff than I'll ever need, and I've got access to crunch that isn't actively painful to use. I'm all set.
Yeah, I hear that. I know Godbound isn't for everyone--no game is, after all--but it suits me just fine. I've got two massive stacks of Exalted 1e and 2e books to provide plenty of gaming ideas and fluff if I ever want to revisit that world, but I honestly expect my next high-powered game will be using Godbound's setting of Arcem. Someday, though, I'll get around to exploring Creation's West more and doing that pirate campaign I've always wanted to do...
Godbound: Does everything Exalted does without cock blocking the player with horrible mechanics.
Quote from: Brand55;947514Yeah, I hear that. I know Godbound isn't for everyone--no game is, after all--but it suits me just fine. I've got two massive stacks of Exalted 1e and 2e books to provide plenty of gaming ideas and fluff if I ever want to revisit that world, but I honestly expect my next high-powered game will be using Godbound's setting of Arcem. Someday, though, I'll get around to exploring Creation's West more and doing that pirate campaign I've always wanted to do...
Leaving the setting behind is a good idea for a game like Exalted. Having a deeply detailed setting is a bad idea for a game in which the players are supposed to reshape/burn down the world. If the GM has spent hundreds of dollars on a canon setting, it can make them protective of the setting, wanting to defend it from changes that make their books useless.
The Godbound setting, where you have broad strokes that the GM fleshes out with random tables makes for something that everyone is a lot more willing to bend to their liking.
Quote from: Baulderstone;947557Leaving the setting behind is a good idea for a game like Exalted. Having a deeply detailed setting is a bad idea for a game in which the players are supposed to reshape/burn down the world. If the GM has spent hundreds of dollars on a canon setting, it can make them protective of the setting, wanting to defend it from changes that make their books useless.
I guess that depends on how quickly your game runs? Mine tends to be pretty slow, so it will likely take at least several months for the players to burn down a single chapter in a single sourcebook. I'd call that getting my money's worth. :p
And of course, I tend to pick players up online rather than have a steady group (though I have one or two of those too). Which means that every time I start a new campaign, everything resets and my books are back to being relevant again.
Quote from: Baulderstone;947557Leaving the setting behind is a good idea for a game like Exalted. Having a deeply detailed setting is a bad idea for a game in which the players are supposed to reshape/burn down the world. If the GM has spent hundreds of dollars on a canon setting, it can make them protective of the setting, wanting to defend it from changes that make their books useless.
I can see how that could happen, but it was never an issue in my Exalted games. Maybe I'm just weird, but I never hesitated to let the players run loose or tweak things in the books if I thought it would make for a better session. Some of the best moments came from players heading off into left field, like the shenanigans they pulled using the Lap or the time they tried to thwart an attack on Gem by opening up a temporary Shadowland. Of course, since making a Shadowland was the purpose of the attack in the first place, the First and Forsaken Lion was very pleased.
Quote from: AsenRG;947426Yeah, that's exactly my case. I also officially dock XP from players for quoting something I can recognize as Monthy Python, because interrupting the game isn't what good players do IMO.
I think that's why my gaming tables are mostly MonthyPython-free:D!
It didn't bother me as much twenty years ago, but these days, it it is like nails on a chalk board for me.
My favorite part of this topic is "deranged jeremiads" used correctly in a sentence. Its awesome is still reverberating these many pages since.
I bask. :cool:
Quote from: Snowman0147;947521Godbound: Does everything Exalted does without cock blocking the player with horrible mechanics.
Gods of the Fall did very well for my group as far as feel was concerned.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;947637Gods of the Fall did very well for my group as far as feel was concerned.
I will agree with that. The cypher system is leagues better than storyteller. That move alone made people skeptical of Exalted 3rd edition since it failed twice.
On a topic that turned up in this thread a full year ago but is recent for me, so bear with me... :p
If Beast: the Primordial is really a poorly concealed metaphor for GamerGaters vs feminists, then I'm halfway tempted to get it just so I can try running a Hunter: the Vigil campaign where the hunters try to take down dysfunctional, self-pitying Beasts while trying to dodge the "help" of pompous, clueless Heroes.
HUNTER: "All right, so the Beast is going to wake up in a few hours... If I set up across the street with a sniper rifle, I should be able to pick her off as soon as she goes outside..."
HERO: *tips fedora* "Don't trouble yourself, m'lady! I'll dispatch the fiend in your honour!" *storms into the lair*
HUNTER: "No don't do tha... Oh crap."
HERO: *from inside the lair* "Tremble, Beast! I shall slay you in the name of ethics in game jourNAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHHH!"
BEAST: *emerges from the lair, covered in blood* "WAAAAH, HE WAS SO MEAN TO ME! THAT PROVES THAT THE WORLD IS EVIL AND I'M 100% JUSTIFIED IN TAKING OUT MY ISSUES ON IT - STARTING WITH YOU!"
HUNTER: *raises gun, preparing to fight to the death* "Aw fuck, here we go again. I remember when the epic battle between good and evil used to be a great deal less fucking stupid..."
See, that would make a good metaphor for the whole mess, at least for how it looks from my perspective. :p
Oh well. Probably not, I'm no good at running mean-spirited games - I still remember the mess I made of Hunter: the Reckoning when I was younger by using it to take out my annoyance about Werewolf. I still think it would be funny, though.
Quote from: Baeraad;947562I guess that depends on how quickly your game runs? Mine tends to be pretty slow, so it will likely take at least several months for the players to burn down a single chapter in a single sourcebook. I'd call that getting my money's worth. :p
And of course, I tend to pick players up online rather than have a steady group (though I have one or two of those too). Which means that every time I start a new campaign, everything resets and my books are back to being relevant again.
Quote from: Brand55;947564I can see how that could happen, but it was never an issue in my Exalted games. Maybe I'm just weird, but I never hesitated to let the players run loose or tweak things in the books if I thought it would make for a better session. Some of the best moments came from players heading off into left field, like the shenanigans they pulled using the Lap or the time they tried to thwart an attack on Gem by opening up a temporary Shadowland. Of course, since making a Shadowland was the purpose of the attack in the first place, the First and Forsaken Lion was very pleased.
Sure. It isn't a definite problem, just a potential one. I just find that the more sourcebooks a setting has, the more likely the GM is going to try and stop from you messing around with the setting. Like almost every problem in an RPG, a good GM isn't going to have an issue with it.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;947571It didn't bother me as much twenty years ago, but these days, it it is like nails on a chalk board for me.
I guess I am the opposite. Twenty years ago, I was at the point where a Monty Python joke at the table would have been like nails on a chalkboard. These days, it's probably been a full twenty years since I actually had anyone at a table actually do it. If someone were to do it now, I might get wistfully nostalgic, kind of like when you hear a twenty-year-old song that annoyed the hell out of when it was all over the radio, but when it pops up again decades later gives you a warm rush of happy memories.
For the record, I do like Monty Python. I just reached a limit with people over-quoting it.
Quote from: Baeraad;947666Oh well. Probably not, I'm no good at running mean-spirited games - I still remember the mess I made of Hunter: the Reckoning when I was younger by using it to take out my annoyance about Werewolf. I still think it would be funny, though.
Yeah. Probably not. Trying to base a campaign, or even an adventure on a joke concept can easily fall flat. You got a funny comment out of it, so best to leave it at that. One of the lessons I learned as a teen running Paranoia is that humor that you set up ahead of time will almost always die at the table. Good gaming humor is usually the kind that just happens spontaneously.
Quote from: Baeraad;947666On a topic that turned up in this thread a full year ago but is recent for me, so bear with me... :p
The failures (and handful of successes) of Beast are good enough for its own thread I think. :)
Quote from: Baeraad;947666If Beast: the Primordial is really a poorly concealed metaphor for GamerGaters vs feminists, then I'm halfway tempted to get it just so I can try running a Hunter: the Vigil campaign where the hunters try to take down dysfunctional, self-pitying Beasts while trying to dodge the "help" of pompous, clueless Heroes.
At first it was a game about the Addams Family, where monsters are misunderstood creatures just trying to peacefully live their lives by playing harmless pranks while bigots seemingly manifest out of the woodwork to kill them, so they -have- to their use superior magical powers to "pound the puny mortals".
Problem being, that it's not -really- a metaphor for anything and it's not -really- all that scary.
So now it's a game about creatures who -have- to feed, and... it's basically a rehash of Vampire at this point, except Beasts are even more whiny and arrogant and pathetic, and whatever metaphor they might have had gets drowned out because people don't want to play horrible monsters in a horror game about playing horrible monsters*.
At this point, it's main saving grace is as a rough campaign framework for Hunter the Vigil.
What does this have to do with Exalted 3ed? Well, not much. But it does remind me of the old days of White Wolf when lack of oversight from on high tended to trickle down throughout the different lines resulting in inferior products all around.
(*oddly enough, the rest of the nWoD lines get a pass. Likely because the themes are all old hat now, and when they're new the horror comes from -outside- the character rather than within).
I spoken with some freelancers who work for Onyx Path. They cannot get their shit together. One freelancer had rewrite her segment three times because she was told how something works which some else comes in telling her the opposite. No cohension and no structure.
Quote from: Snowman0147;947912I spoken with some freelancers who work for Onyx Path. They cannot get their shit together. One freelancer had rewrite her segment three times because she was told how something works which some else comes in telling her the opposite. No cohension and no structure.
Onyx Path was pretty good for a decent while. But I think as their lines have grown in number, the need for line developers has increased, and the line developers kinda' sorta' have to be on the ball in regards to not only their own line but the related lines as well. Eventually though, they tend to crack, and shitty product gets through.
I figure it's a race to see whether the Exalted team stop caring or Onyx Path loses its licenses.
Quote from: The Butcher;946825What would you want out of a system, specifically for Exalted? Outside the OSR I'd consider either FATE or ORE (mashing up Wild Talents characters with Reign's Company system).
I put this aside to consider then promptly forgot about it. :o
Surprisingly difficult question but ideally, I think I'd like something that ran like WEG's d6 Star Wars: on the lighter side to run quickly and in a cinematic mode but crunchy enough that everything didn't feel like fiat. With a system for building Abilities or some really in depth guide lines, Something like Influence/Dominion rules from Godbound would be great. They're one of the most inspired parts of that rule set, IMO.
Quote from: Baulderstone;947557Leaving the setting behind is a good idea for a game like Exalted. Having a deeply detailed setting is a bad idea for a game in which the players are supposed to reshape/burn down the world. If the GM has spent hundreds of dollars on a canon setting, it can make them protective of the setting, wanting to defend it from changes that make their books useless.
The Godbound setting, where you have broad strokes that the GM fleshes out with random tables makes for something that everyone is a lot more willing to bend to their liking.
It doesn't help at all that the setting is full of super powerful beings dedicated to not letting the players change the status quo in the highly fleshed out places, e.g. the Emissary.
How much longer is this fucking thread going to go on?
There's a certain irony here.
There is a certain majesty in it, though. Its not the longest thread, but fuck a duck if it hasn't been around for ages and ages.
Sigh... I remember when everyone was still posting about how it would never be released. Now look at it... I'm half shocked no one is asking about Exalted Fourth Ed...
Quote from: RPGPundit;948437How much longer is this fucking thread going to go on?
There's a certain irony here.
If Onyx Path keeps fucking up and still has the Exalted license it could be forever.
Quote from: Spike;948440Sigh... I remember when everyone was still posting about how it would never be released. Now look at it... I'm half shocked no one is asking about Exalted Fourth Ed...
Look just a couple of posts above you....
Quote from: Nexus;947915I put this aside to consider then promptly forgot about it. :o
Surprisingly difficult question but ideally, I think I'd like something that ran like WEG's d6 Star Wars: on the lighter side to run quickly and in a cinematic mode but crunchy enough that everything didn't feel like fiat. With a system for building Abilities or some really in depth guide lines, Something like Influence/Dominion rules from Godbound would be great. They're one of the most inspired parts of that rule set, IMO.
Sure, Nexus isn't explicitly talking about 4E, but the conversation about what you'd like the game to look like it pretty close to the same thing.
Quote from: san dee jota;947914I figure it's a race to see whether the Exalted team stop caring or Onyx Path loses its licenses.
At a book every 5 years, it could be just left in limbo :)
Quote from: Spike;948440Sigh... I remember when everyone was still posting about how it would never be released. Now look at it... I'm half shocked no one is asking about Exalted Fourth Ed...
My futile hope is that OP consider a 20th anniversary edition in 4 years time, even if Ex3 is limping along at that time. They could go back to 1e, add in a few things like universal dice adders and better art and call it quits IMO
Well hell, the book is finally in the mail. I can barely contain my ambivalence. :D
Apparently its very pretty looking...
Quote from: JamesV;951482Well hell, the book is finally in the mail. I can barely contain my ambivalence. :D
I am more keen for the map than the book, as I can use that in my Exalted Godbound game.
Quote from: Nexus;951484Apparently its very pretty looking...
The Orichalcum Edition looks dreadful. Its a black leatherette cover with a gold metal plate glued to the front. All that for USD350 :rolleyes:
Posted by someone on Twitter:
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b611/Skeptictankj/photo_zpsqyagp63z.jpg)
Hell, that's better than I expected. But not what was advertised.
QuoteContribute to help us give the Deluxe Exalted 3rd Edition a leather bound, embossed+, metallic-edged, full-color, deluxe treatment.
But than again that sums up exalted pretty damn well at this point.
Quote from: Skywalker;951496The Orichalcum Edition looks dreadful. Its a black leatherette cover with a gold metal plate glued to the front. All that for USD350 :rolleyes:
Posted by someone on Twitter:
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b611/Skeptictankj/photo_zpsqyagp63z.jpg
That is a little underwhelming.
Quote from: Skywalker;951496The Orichalcum Edition looks dreadful. Its a black leatherette cover with a gold metal plate glued to the front. All that for USD350 :rolleyes:
Posted by someone on Twitter:
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b611/Skeptictankj/photo_zpsqyagp63z.jpg)
I wonder how good the bindings are. Is this intended to be used, or sat on a shelf and never opened?
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;951623I wonder how good the bindings are. Is this intended to be used, or sat on a shelf and never opened?
From the comments I've seen so far its more a decorative piece for most purchasers. Which I can fully understand. I wouldn't want a 350 buck book anywhere near a typical gaming session. :eek:
Honestly, i am surprised that the super deluxe looks as good as it does. I mean what did you guys expect it would look like?
For me, i'm glad i did not spring for the super deluxe...i thinkt the "normal" deluxe looks much better.
Too bad the content is garbage. At least the mechanics. I think the setting is quite cool (it was always the selling point for most Exalted fans, i guess).
Quote from: Nexus;951625From the comments I've seen so far its more a decorative piece for most purchasers. Which I can fully understand. I wouldn't want a 350 buck book anywhere near a typical gaming session. :eek:
I totally agree with you on that point:D!
Quote from: Nexus;951625From the comments I've seen so far its more a decorative piece for most purchasers. Which I can fully understand. I wouldn't want a 350 buck book anywhere near a typical gaming session. :eek:
Doesn't look worth 350 bucks to me.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;951826Doesn't look worth 350 bucks to me.
Looks like a robbery.
That is an ugly looking book, can see what they were going for but they failed.
Agreed. The glyphs should have been stamped into the cover as separate objects. At the least, there ought to be some sort of enamelling to highlight the lines of the glyphs.
They literally glued a metal plate to the leather didn't they? It's not even inset.
Yeah, the normal deluxe book is actually really nice. That black version with the plate is just gaudy. Seeing it just makes me that much happier that the Ex3 Kickstarter launch was delayed. I probably would have backed it for the ultra deluxe copy if things had gone off as planned, but thankfully I managed to dodge that bullet.
A side photo suggests that it may be inset as you can't see its edge on the cover, though it doesn't look so from the front.
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b611/Skeptictankj/Compare_zpstjftstva.jpg)
And yes, that's the width of 3e compared to the already massive 2e.
Quote from: Brand55;951942Yeah, the normal deluxe book is actually really nice. That black version with the plate is just gaudy. Seeing it just makes me that much happier that the Ex3 Kickstarter launch was delayed. I probably would have backed it for the ultra deluxe copy if things had gone off as planned, but thankfully I managed to dodge that bullet.
I also like how the normal deluxe version matches the Exalted 1e limited edition, even down to the gold gilding on the pages.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6lqo87WoAEQuYK.jpg)
(https://moonshadows.com.br/image/cache/catalog/imagens_produtos/exalted%20limited-500x515.jpg)(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/drwAAOSwMtxXsjnb/s-l300.jpg)
Now that normal deluxe looks so much better.
Quote from: Snowman0147;951955Now that normal deluxe looks so much better.
Yeah, I do like a handsome book.
Too bad it's, you know, Exalted 3e.
Quote from: JamesV;952002Yeah, I do like a handsome book.
Too bad it's, you know, Exalted 3e.
And heavy enough to bludgeon a grown man to death with.
Quote from: JamesV;952002Yeah, I do like a handsome book.
Too bad it's, you know, Exalted 3e.
I never said it was perfect.
The third edition is starting to terrify me. I feel like it's going to come to my house, beat down my door, take all my money, and demand that I bow down and worship its mechanical magnificence and supreme inclusivity. :eek:
On a less neurotic and deranged Exalted note, I'm having trouble converting a Charm to my Godbound hack. It's a Survival Charm that lets you spend Essence to... forage for food for 25 people at the lowest prerequisite (Essence 2). This, I feel, is decidedly underwhelming. If I'm a master hunter folk hero, feeding a small logging camp should be something I can manage without magic! :p It goes up to 250 for the level my PCs are at the moment (Essence 4), but given that that level is supposed to be the level of angelic avatars of perfection, being able to feel a mid-sized village still feels a bit meh. At that level I feel like I should be able to just stand at the edge of a forest and yell at all the game animals in there to get their asses out here and get eaten. :p
Can anyone think of a way to make this one cool? I do like the idea of having super-feeding-people powers, and so would the one of the players who's got the most Survival chops. It just feels like it needs more epic. So, should I make it the ability to feed 1000 people? Would that be somehow overpowered in regards to the supposed thematic power level? Is there even a supposed thematic power level, or were they just making that shit up because it sounded good? (probably, to be honest :p ) Sometimes I'm just confused at what sort of playstyle these rules are even supposed to support.
Look at beast gifts and the beast gift example. Those little green boxes are quite handy.
I've been growing increasingly frustrated with EX3 and its designers for awhile. I tried to write a reply which became a surprisingly introspective blog post instead. I post the relevant part here:
Here I finally saw the brilliant dream of Gygax and Arneson; and oh it was a wonder to behold.
So now the scales have fallen from my eyes. I see a new world of roleplaying. And now... I don't know what to do with EX3. Any WoD-like, for that matter.
I look at my PDFs for stuff like dungeon world and, although I admire the professionalism and the design, I smirk and shake my head and marvel that I once thought it was revolutionary. I see things like one of the designers of EX3 claiming that it's the "best edition of D&D ever made" and I'm flabbergasted; how do they not know?
I feel like fucking Zarathustra here.
I just got done reading the hundreds of words on how money works in my EX3 PDF and it feels like it just misses the damn point. I don't care what the breakdown of obol-to-dinar is; there's no fucking system for it! There's an entire caste of Exalt whose shtick is bureaucracy, and there is not a single system for anything remotely approaching commerce, or an economy, or travel, or logistics, or just anything.
I mean, it's a bronze-age world: maybe make a note that literally every city is on a waterway. You are going to be using Sail to travel no matter where you are in Creation.
In so many places the design wants to contradict itself; it wants to tell you about how complex the economy is, casually tossing around "bonded" and "equity" and like terms, but never giving an example of how to do things with money.
Could I start a stock market in Nexus? If so, fucking how? Would that just be an abstracted roll?
The resource system has 5 tiers, and if you have enough knowledge of fiduciary systems to know what it means to have wealth "bonded" into currency, then you have to know that's not a satisfactory model.
I wouldn't raise these points, but bureaucracy is a fucking skill. Hundreds of words are devoted to denominations of currency, but there is no conversation about how to engage with it as a player or model it as a GM. We get a wholly inadequate abstraction which doesn't even dovetail with the rules for playing the game.
Ignoring all that, even very basic questions are answered with frustrating vagueness. If you continually buy things at a rank of your resources, you apparently are going into debt? And this should be modeled with "a custom flaw". There is no conversation of how this flaw would manifest. What happens when the players raid one of their first-age tombs and find a pile of plunder? Do they get... More resources? How much? Does it last? How long? What happens when someone has resources 5, then doubles their money with such a haul? (This last one happened in an old EX2 game that I ran. I modeled it with wealth from dreams of the first age).
Even things like "what if I want to invest money in something?" Page after page is dedicated to a subsystem for crafting that borders on a confession of OCD, but is a single word breathed about finance? Not beyond the authors demonstrating that they know stuff about it.
There are no travel rules in this game. At least, there are none in the index, under the ride entry, or under any of the ride charms. Boats have travel times based on their speeds, but there's no real discussion of what sailing entails in the world, which is a problem because, apparently, this bronze age game has ships with just so much fucking rigging.
I keep coming back to things like that; things that betray this game as a game made by fans of pirates characters (from movies and books). Fans of commerce-themed anime (Spice and Wolf gets brought up a lot). Fans of fighting and kung-fu cartoons. But nothing has a root in actual reality; everything is designed to emulate some fiction or another, so that what you have isn't a game about something, but rather about stories which were about something.
The creator(s) of ACKS (A particular shout out to Alexander Macris and his tireless effort to improve on perfection) were also fans of something; dungeons and dragons. But ACKS isn't just a warmed-over set of abstractions and excuses for the "core experience" of DnD: it's based on thought, and research, and the real actual world and its physical laws.
It puts roleplaying first the way thirty pages of esoteric social mechanics can't: it fucking assumes that you are roleplaying and builds outward from there.
It relates the cost of things to their real-world (and actually researched) value. It makes commerce matter by allowing you to model it, and yes that does mean numbers and counting and math and why is that a bad thing? Why is Exalted so afraid of counting?
It makes travel matter by putting you in the wilderness and making you map it. It makes you take time and risk danger by doing things like hunting, or getting lost, or backtracking, or circumnavigating. It forces you to deal with the actual concerns people face while traveling in hostile, unexplored territory. I've played Eclipse characters that would have been brilliant at this exact thing if Exalted had ever bothered to give us a technique for using the damn map.
I look at the pictures of EX3 and it is enormous; easily the size of my entire ACKS library (core book, player's companion, and Domains at War). And it's a fucking paperweight. Why?
I'll tell you why; because ACKS has zero content that I won't use. Oh sure, I might make a dungeon with rooms that go unexplored, or hexes that players never crawl to, but the actual mechanics? Either me or my players will use every one of them. They create content, unlock potential, and add to the world and the experience. There's not an ounce of fat on any of these books, they are lean and strong and brilliant.
But EX3 is nothing but flab. How many of those charms are going to hit my table? How many of the artifacts, or spells, or martial arts? 70%? Not likely, maybe 40% seems more reasonable.
The rest is content nobody at my table will care about; Solars are PC characters, not NPCs, so I can't do anything with the unused charms.
I might, possibly, have a single PC interested in martial arts; aside from that, I won't fucking use these things. I've got a world to run; how the hell am I going to keep track of NPCs with this many keywords?
Spells are the same way. There will be a handful of utility spells that get around the inconvenient sacred cows of the setting (long-distance communication and travel spring to mind) and the rest are just another kind of fucking charm, doomed to be replaced by vastly more appropriate splat-based charms.
PCs will pick up a signature artifact weapon, a signature "trick" artifact, and maybe 2 will have armor. The rest of these are stat bonuses for dragonblooded or abyssals.
Just on and on with this shit... Having an unexplored hex feels like opportunity, having this much unused and unusable content in a core book seem like suicide.
So okay, to sum this up; I have no idea why I would play EX3 now that I have ACKS. I don't see that it offers me anything that ACKS doesn't. I can be powerful and change the world and lead armies and wage economic warfare and make magic castles and weapons and armor in ACKS and it caps at level 14!
Quote from: Azraele;952099I keep coming back to things like that; things that betray this game as a game made by fans of pirates characters (from movies and books). Fans of commerce-themed anime (Spice and Wolf gets brought up a lot). Fans of fighting and kung-fu cartoons. But nothing has a root in actual reality; everything is designed to emulate some fiction or another, so that what you have isn't a game about something, but rather about stories which were about something.
This is pretty much my main gripe about not just Exalted by the entire output of WhiteWolf and its successors. They always seem to assume that there's this
thing called noir and this
thing called mythology and this
thing called wuxia and this
thing called crime fiction, and that not only can the customers be assumed to be deeply familiar with them but it will be easy, for people familiar with a certain genre, to emulate that genre in play. The only thing stopping them from doing so, the unspoken assumption in everything from Vampire: the Masquerade to Trinity seems to go, is that roleplayers are a bunch of immature munchkins who need to be patiently lectured on the need to not be immature munchkins so that they might finally start to roleplay properly.
The problem is that while you don't need much real-world knowledge to enjoy a story of a given genre, you do need a certain understanding of the factors at work - or at least a simplified, fictionalised version of those factors - to
create such a story. To create a pirate scenario, you need to know what
sort of thing might happen to a pirate ship in the Spanish Main, or at least an internally consistent fictional version of the Spanish Main. To create a police procedural, you need to know something about what sort of procedures the police could conceivably use - not necessarily the ones the real police use, but the ones they might be imagined to use in a make-believe setting where forensic evidence is 100% reliable and a DNA test can be whipped up in five minutes. And to have a fantasy game that deal heavily with logistics and infrastructure, you need to not just have a note that says "insert logistics and infrastructure," but to provide an actual working model for how things like trade and bureaucracy and politics actually function.
It doesn't have to be in the form of rules and dice and modifiers - in fact, it might even be better if it isn't. But there needs to be some kind of easy-to-follow guidelines that states that usually X is the case but sometimes Y happens, and then Z often but not always results. That explains that the reason why no one has done obvious improvement A is that so far no one has managed to overcome obstacle B, but if someone could manage A it would be really good because then we might start working on C. You know? Enough information for the GM to form some sort of simple working model of how the world is ticking along and how the players might affect and be affected by it.
But no, no, no... "Just roleplay it!" they say, as if internally coherent setting detail was the sort of thing you could just pull out of your ass. And then they are surprised and disappointed when people stick to the parts of the game that are actually outlined. :p
How ill was John Morke? The last reports I saw directly indicating he had a growth that was being tested. Then things fell silent for awhile aside from rumors from he was at Death's Door to he had an advanced goiter.
Latest update: Holden and John are gone as developers. That isn't surprising at this stage TBH. And they are replacing them with Eric Minton and Robert Vance , two people who seem to have no development experience or less RPG writing experience than the two outgoers. According to the update: "Eric and Robert have been all over EX3 in various capacities since writing began, and their involvement and love of Exalted goes further back than that."
Quote from: Skywalker;953926Latest update: Holden and John are gone as developers. That isn't surprising at this stage TBH. And they are replacing them with Eric Minton and Robert Vance , two people who seem to have no development experience or less RPG writing experience than the two outgoers. According to the update: "Eric and Robert have been all over EX3 in various capacities since writing began, and their involvement and love of Exalted goes further back than that."
We've seen this before with Exalted, and it never ends well when multiple developers play around with different books during an edition's run. These guys may know their stuff, but I'd be shocked if there were no more changes to the team throughout the rest of EX3's lifespan (assuming it gets the decade or so it'll need to see all the important splat books released).
This is why I prefer games that are pretty much entirely the work of a single individual, like Kevin Crawford's stuff or Wiggy's Hellfrost. It's so nice to get a single, coherent view of a game/setting.
Quote from: Azraele;952099Magnificent Rant
Welcome to the wonderful world of Roleplaying (aka actually Roleplaying as a character in a setting, not Storytelling). Isn't playing without all the narrative horseshit refreshing? :D
Quote from: Skywalker;953926Latest update: Holden and John are gone as developers.
Well, I'm surprised about John, Holden had become a PR liability.
Quote from: Brand55;953930We've seen this before with Exalted, and it never ends well when multiple developers play around with different books during an edition's run. These guys may know their stuff, but I'd be shocked if there were no more changes to the team throughout the rest of EX3's lifespan (assuming it gets the decade or so it'll need to see all the important splat books released).
This is why I prefer games that are pretty much entirely the work of a single individual, like Kevin Crawford's stuff or Wiggy's Hellfrost. It's so nice to get a single, coherent view of a game/setting.
Wonder if and when they'll get thrown under the bus.
Just curious since I haven't been following Exalted for a while, but what happened to Holden and John?
Quote from: Azraele;952099The creator(s) of ACKS (A particular shout out to Alexander Macris and his tireless effort to improve on perfection) were also fans of something; dungeons and dragons. But ACKS isn't just a warmed-over set of abstractions and excuses for the "core experience" of DnD: it's based on thought, and research, and the real actual world and its physical laws.
Hahaha, your post is brilliant. Ironically, I'd gotten about halfway through when I was thinking, you know, ACKS does "modelling the world through it's economy well", and that's where you arrived at.
You've encapsulated the difference between someone who designs something in an appropriate way, based on having an approach that's logical and internally consistent. Contrasting to a collective of people who frankly haven't got a fucking clue about anything besides their own prejudices and the "Rule of Cool". Which if you have no grounding, nothing is cool.
The Ex3 team made very clear they weren't serious about designing a good game when they didn't burn the Storyteller System and write something totally new, from scratch. So all we have is a warmed up turd rolled in glitter.
Quote from: Starglyte;954021Just curious since I haven't been following Exalted for a while, but what happened to Holden and John?
The same thing that happened to Zinoviev and Tukhachevsky.
jg
Quote from: Kiero;954033So all we have is a warmed up turd rolled in glitter.
The imagery is beautiful.
Quote from: James Gillen;954045The same thing that happened to Zinoviev and Tukhachevsky.
jg
It looked like there was talk of some behind the scenes stuff going on that was pretty quickly hushed up, on TBP at least.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;954060The imagery is beautiful.
Its certainly vivid and, IMO, accurate.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;954060The imagery is beautiful.
It's less beautiful when you realize it's a turd the size of a minivan. Have you seen the size comparison of the 2nd and 3rd gen books?
Quote from: AsenRG;953939Well, I'm surprised about John, Holden had become a PR liability.
To be honest, both are. And throw Rich on top of that as well.
But i think you are right. It probably was time to let them go because of accumulated...bs... . I mean seriously, have you read how they (Holden in particular) have communicated to fans and customers. Wow...just wow.
As for the new situation...not sure what to think. Minton has some good AP stuff for Exalted (i guess that was why he made the team in the first place) but other than that, no clue who those people are. Considering that no one of the whole Ex3e team has a fucking clue about mechanics and logical/technical writing, my expectations aren't high (ok, after the first leak, they never were again anyway...so that's not saying much).
I am also not sure if this is not the official beginning of the end after all...sure Rich tries to sound like "hey, now it's going somewhere again..." but i am not convinced.
Considering that they will probably want to charge the fans for all those snippets they promised instead of making them a "sorry for the shit so far, guys" i think it could very well be the last nail in the coffin.
I guess we will see.
I have no idea who either of these guys are. But I'd never heard of John Morke before and Holden was just some slightly obnoxious fan on the White Wolf message with a Hamtaro avatar.
Having worked briefly with both of them, Eric Minton and Robert Vance are both top-notch and tireless workers. Line-development is a project management thing, rather than a game design thing, and Minton, at least, has always struck me as somebody who is very organized and disciplined. They're also both very familiar with Exalted, so I trust the line has been passed on to really good hands.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;954346Having worked briefly with both of them, Eric Minton and Robert Vance are both top-notch and tireless workers. Line-development is a project management thing, rather than a game design thing, and Minton, at least, has always struck me as somebody who is very organized and disciplined. They're also both very familiar with Exalted, so I trust the line has been passed on to really good hands.
Are they going to hire people who have a clue about game design, though?
Quote from: Kiero;954348Are they going to hire people who have a clue about game design, though?
I'm sure they'll try. Minton and Vance both struck me as good at rules. But Holden and John were both very, very good at game design, too. If you buy into Exalted 3's rules, they work very well. On the other hand, a lot of people don't want a system that complex that plays that way.
I feel like Exalted 3 is based on fighting game conceits, whereas 1e was based on tabletop and CCG conceits. If you're willing to play a game that plays like Street Fighter or something at the table, Exalted 3 is actually pretty solid. But a lot of people don't want that -- TTRPGs are very bad at replicating stuff that computers do behind the scenes. Same thing goes with D&D 4e -- 4e, for a good while at least, was a mechanically sound game, and for people who prize mechanical balance and soundness, that comes at a premium. But a lot of other people were like, "A lot of the stuff that 4e gives me, I can get via an MMORPG pretty painlessly."
Sorry, I drifted there. I suspect strongly that Minton and Vance will do their best to get people who understand rules design, but I think 3e is the engine they're saddled to, so if that doesn't work for you -- and I don't blame you if it doesn't -- then this change may be largely superficial to you.
My experiences with 3rd didn't feel like Streetfighter or other fighting games, not even close. Fight!: the Fightin game rpg captured that experience far better and with less heft, IMO. 3rd combat felt like much the same tedious slog as earlier edition but with even more to track and odd disassociated mechanical widgets.
Quote from: Nexus;954372My experiences with 3rd didn't feel like Streetfighter or other fighting games, not even close. Fight!: the Fightin game rpg captured that experience far better and with less heft, IMO. 3rd combat felt like much the same tedious slog as earlier edition but with even more to track and odd disassociated mechanical widgets.
Well, we're talking about the difference between the theory behind fighting games popped into an RPG, and an RPG meant to give you a fighting game feel in an RPG.
To me, I see a lot of Sirlin's Playing to Win (http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win) in Exalted 3. You
can persuasively argue that a TTRPG is a bad place to put a bunch of variables like essence, initiative, different types of move, a keyword system, and a bunch of different game exceptions in the form of Charms, plus multiple types of magic, multiple types of Exalt, all at once, in combat, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's designed badly. All those parts could work splendidly together. It's just a lot of people might think it's too much to deal with at the table and turns the game into a slog.
As an example, for me, D&D 4e ran alright -- it balanced well, all my players had something to do at low-levels in combat, etc. On the other hand, I needed a combat assistant program to track everybody's conditions, everybody's various statuses, and a map to track how people were moving and being moved by various powers. At the end of the day, to my mind, a videogame does that kind of technical shit better, and I don't have to be the guy dealing with it. I think 4e was initially well-designed, but I didn't like to run it.
I'm not saying you're wrong or anybody's wrong for disliking the game or thinking it's badly designed. I'm just explaining where I'm coming from that a game can be well-designed, the parts can work together well, but still be something I don't particularly need to run. It's the difference, to me, of a game being well-designed, and a game being fun.
I don't doubt that you could design a game that went into as much detail as Exalted 3rd does, did it well and was enjoyable to run at the table. I don't think Exalted 3rd succeeds at any of that. I don't mind "crunch". Hell I mostly use Hero and GURPS. But, for my tastes, Ex 3 wasn't crunch done well. More so it was crunch were it wasn't necessarily needed for the game desired. But that's me. Allot of people clearly enjoy it. It does seem to be more functional and stable platform than 2nd and hopefully will remain solid under the weight of additional bells and whistles as the line grows.
Speaking of the line, did anyone get a look at the preview of Arms of the Chosen in the last backer update? How did it look?
Quote from: Nexus;954402Speaking of the line, did anyone get a look at the preview of Arms of the Chosen in the last backer update? How did it look?
Sorry, I've decided to wait for the full book, and haven't even read the update yet.
A tumultuous thread on Deluxe Edition on OP's forum (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/1070312-i-got-my-book-it-s-super-fancy-and-i-can-t-read-the-cover/page4?_=1490991384996)
I'm closing this thread when it hits 300 pages; but people can start a new one after that, if they want.
Well, by my count that leaves all the time in the world. Damn ten year old thread has only hit 75 pages, yo!
I really gotta copy down that Azreal (or whomever) Rant/screed. So perfectly encapsulates why I hate abstract wealth systems, if nothing else. I just know that five years from now I'm really gonna want to reference it and I won't have a damn clue where I read it.
Two more pages on my view but it might still be open before another actual release for the game hits the shelves. The Jumpstart not withstanding.
Apparently Holden and Morke aren't writing for the line at all anymore not just removed as developers. Holden reportedly phrased it as "Our services were no longer required".
And? I mean does anyone (apart from the sycophants on TBP, that is) really think it is that surprising that someone had to "stand up" for the consequences of the big clusterfuck that was Ex3e KS and everything around it? I don't. And honestly, i couldn't care less. I lost all respect for those two anyway. I'm especially glad to see Holden out of Ex .
And when we are on topic of the KS...so apparently the super deluxe book has been sold on the KS as signed and numbered collectible and now that it arrives at the doorsteps of the backers who shelled out 350$ (or something like that) for that thing it turns out...it's not signed and numbered. And some fucks on TBP think that that's ok because it would have been a lot of work and a pain in the ass to sign and number all those books....wow, just wow. If i were a backer of that Orichalcum monstrosity, i would be really really angry. On top of everything else with this KS, now they give their super super deluxe backers the finger like that?! Man!
Maybe that's one of the reasons for the firing of the lead devs...
Quote from: Anglachel;955028And? I mean does anyone (apart from the sycophants on TBP, that is) really think it is that surprising that someone had to "stand up" for the consequences of the big clusterfuck that was Ex3e KS and everything around it? I don't. And honestly, i couldn't care less. I lost all respect for those two anyway. I'm especially glad to see Holden out of Ex .
Just passing on the news. Some were wondering if they'd still be participating in the line at all. Speaking for myself I'm not sorry to see either one of them go as I think they're input did the most as far as turning me off on the game and setting goes. I don't think it will change things much at this point so I'll take the schadenfreude.
Quote from: Anglachel;955028And when we are on topic of the KS...so apparently the super deluxe book has been sold on the KS as signed and numbered collectible and now that it arrives at the doorsteps of the backers who shelled out 350$ (or something like that) for that thing it turns out...it's not signed and numbered. And some fucks on TBP think that that's ok because it would have been a lot of work and a pain in the ass to sign and number all those books....wow, just wow. If i were a backer of that Orichalcum monstrosity, i would be really really angry. On top of everything else with this KS, now they give their super super deluxe backers the finger like that?! Man!
Maybe that's one of the reasons for the firing of the lead devs...
Its like I've said before: the core fanbase of Exalted is like those fans the scramble for front row tickets for concerts of bands known for spitting and pissing into the audience. Its like the fandom expanded too much, blew off its outer layers leaving a small ultra dense and nearly unbreakable singularity behind.
Quote from: Nexus;955030Its like I've said before: the core fanbase of Exalted is like those fans the scramble for front row tickets for bands known for spitting and pissing into the audience.
The analogy is surprisingly apt, I find:D!
What I am personally annoyed about is that Rich Thomas doesn't have time to respond to messages making legitimate enquiries about shipment of Ex3 books, yet he finds time to troll threads on Ex3: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/1070312-i-got-my-book-it-s-super-fancy-and-i-can-t-read-the-cover?_=1490991384996 :mad:
Quote from: Skywalker;955062What I am personally annoyed about is that Rich Thomas doesn't have time to respond to messages making legitimate enquiries about shipment of Ex3 books, yet he finds time to troll threads on Ex3: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/1070312-i-got-my-book-it-s-super-fancy-and-i-can-t-read-the-cover?_=1490991384996 :mad:
And he is a big baby about his new script. Unbelievable! PR handicaped is putting it nicely. And he is the fucking boss, no less. Just groan and headshake worthy, that.
As i said, throw that dude on the same pile as Holden an Morke. To bad he can't be fired.
Quote from: RPGPundit;954930I'm closing this thread when it hits 300 pages; but people can start a new one after that, if they want.
Will the thread "Questioning chirine ba kal" obtain the same treatment?
Quote from: Skywalker;955106Will the thread "Questioning chirine ba kal" obtain the same treatment?
Huh, yeah that one is almost twice as long as this one.
Damn, these people are really forgiving about their 350 dollar signed and numbered editions not being signed or numbered.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;954400Well, we're talking about the difference between the theory behind fighting games popped into an RPG, and an RPG meant to give you a fighting game feel in an RPG.
To me, I see a lot of Sirlin's Playing to Win (http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win) in Exalted 3. You can persuasively argue that a TTRPG is a bad place to put a bunch of variables like essence, initiative, different types of move, a keyword system, and a bunch of different game exceptions in the form of Charms, plus multiple types of magic, multiple types of Exalt, all at once, in combat, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's designed badly. All those parts could work splendidly together. It's just a lot of people might think it's too much to deal with at the table and turns the game into a slog.
As an example, for me, D&D 4e ran alright -- it balanced well, all my players had something to do at low-levels in combat, etc. On the other hand, I needed a combat assistant program to track everybody's conditions, everybody's various statuses, and a map to track how people were moving and being moved by various powers. At the end of the day, to my mind, a videogame does that kind of technical shit better, and I don't have to be the guy dealing with it. I think 4e was initially well-designed, but I didn't like to run it.
And I feel a part of good design in understanding your requirements. D&D is a game meant to be played at a table by a wide, mainstream audience without a need for automated computation. If someone is assigned the job of designing a new edition of D&D with enough moving parts to give the average DM as headache, it is a poorly designed edition of D&D. It's doesn't matter how elegant the "balance" is.
Quote from: Spike;954937Well, by my count that leaves all the time in the world. Damn ten year old thread has only hit 75 pages, yo!
I really gotta copy down that Azreal (or whomever) Rant/screed. So perfectly encapsulates why I hate abstract wealth systems, if nothing else. I just know that five years from now I'm really gonna want to reference it and I won't have a damn clue where I read it.
There are some games where I can deal with abstract wealth. For example, I'm fine with it a modern investigative game in the Call of Cthulhu model. PCs usually make their money in off-screen day jobs, and it isn't a real plot motivation. Abstraction can work fine.
Exalted, is not the kind of game where I want my wealth to be abstract though.
Quote from: Anglachel;955066And he is a big baby about his new script. Unbelievable! PR handicaped is putting it nicely. And he is the fucking boss, no less. Just groan and headshake worthy, that.
As i said, throw that dude on the same pile as Holden an Morke. To bad he can't be fired.
Depends how you look it. He can't technically be fired, but all the big games he publishes are licensed. Having those yanked would hurt. They could carry on with just Trinity and Scion, but they would be a much lower profile company than they are today.
Quote from: Nexus;955109Damn, these people are really forgiving about their 350 dollar signed and numbered editions not being signed or numbered.
It seems like the instinct that conmen rely on where a victim feels too foolish to admit they were ripped off.
I've seen the excuse that OPP simply didn't understand the difficulty in getting the book signed and numbered when they made the offer. I might shrug and accept that if this were a first timer who got in over their head with Kickstarter, but the Exalted Kickstarter page even brags about their expertise at this sort of thing.
"We have successfully shipped two Deluxe books funded by KS backers, and two more are at press. All those books have taught us how the various pieces of the process works, and the creators of EX3 have over a century of combined experience in the writing, art direction, developing and layout of beautiful tabletop RPG books"
Quote from: Baulderstone;955119There are some games where I can deal with abstract wealth. For example, I'm fine with it a modern investigative game in the Call of Cthulhu model. PCs usually make their money in off-screen day jobs, and it isn't a real plot motivation. Abstraction can work fine.
Exalted, is not the kind of game where I want my wealth to be abstract though.
The wealth system has been a pet peeve of mine since 1st edition. It felt like a ill considered hold over from Storyteller out of laziness which lead to an ability even some Charms that either did nothing or were totally up to ST fiat and improve to make worthwhile. Plus I agree the that type of wealth abstraction works better in more modern setting with wide spread features like fiat money, credit, banking and where PC rewards aren't often in the form of concrete wealth.
Fiat money, credit and banking exist in my version of Creation, at least in places like Nexus;).
Quote from: Nexus;955107Huh, yeah that one is almost twice as long as this one.
Yeah but that thread is worth something. This one was over the first time someone mentioned Godbound. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;955151Yeah but that thread is worth something. This one was over the first time someone mentioned Godbound. :D
Only by half, I'd say. Godbound has far more solid rules, but the setting (while perfectly serviceable) is kind of sketchy. Whereas Exalted's setting is so good that people have endured a decade of mechanics that are universally agreed to be atrocious in order to use it.
I would be all over a restyled "running Exalted with the Godbound rules" thread, though, since I'm actually doing precisely that in three different campaigns by now. And it's sooooo goooood. :D
This has some worth. It exposes the greatness of Sine Nomine Publishing and the utter shittyness of Onyx Path.
Quote from: Baeraad;955156Only by half, I'd say. Godbound has far more solid rules, but the setting (while perfectly serviceable) is kind of sketchy. Whereas Exalted's setting is so good that people have endured a decade of mechanics that are universally agreed to be atrocious in order to use it.
I would be all over a restyled "running Exalted with the Godbound rules" thread, though, since I'm actually doing precisely that in three different campaigns by now. And it's sooooo goooood. :D
Step 1, buy the full rules;).
Quote from: CRKrueger;955151Yeah but that thread is worth something. This one was over the first time someone mentioned Godbound. :D
Well, if you like Godbound I suppose so.
Quote from: Baulderstone;955119There are some games where I can deal with abstract wealth. For example, I'm fine with it a modern investigative game in the Call of Cthulhu model. PCs usually make their money in off-screen day jobs, and it isn't a real plot motivation. Abstraction can work fine.
Exalted, is not the kind of game where I want my wealth to be abstract though.
That's a good take away from my rant. Plenty of games can make abstract wealth work fine (for instance, I never had a problem with it in burning wheel) but Exalted? It's got such a massive amount of mechanical complexity and heavy lifting for the GM; it's a huge mistake to decide to abstract this chunk of rules. Rules which would clearly benefit the game with their detail.
These guys churned out what has to be a record breaking bullet-stopper of a game book and thing that signing and numbering them is just 'soo much work' they can't be bothered with it?
I mean: its not the sort of thing that actually bothers me as a fan. I think my Gurps 4 book is signed and maybe? numbered, but I just use it like I do any other game book, which is shameful of me, I guess. I may have even thrown away the dust jackets for the books, since they are more trouble than they are worth (WHich is high crimes territory for some collectors, I know...)
But what that attitude says about the Devs is staggering. Even if I liked their work, I would never hire... or given that I may never hire anyone in my life... would never give money to anyone that displayed that level of unprofessionalism and just balls out laziness. Useless has-been washed up celebrities sign tens of thousands of photographs at conventions for fans every single year. If those lazy prima-donna assholes can manage that, you can sign a few hundred copies of your fucking book. Jesus, there are web cartoonists that make these guys look like a clown show fer christs sake!
A preview of Arms of the Chosen on the OP forums. (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/1072131-magitech-been-doing-it-wrong/page7)
Doesn't say much at indicates the book exists in some form.
The Jumpstart product is apparently up on DTrpg.
Bitching about the illustration of a female character almost immediately. Spike's rules are correct once again.
They seem to had gotten rid of it because I can't find it.
Maybe its still only accessible to Backers? I think its supposed to be put up for general sale at some point.
On the signed and numbered books issue
QuoteJust as an update, the signed and numbered certificates are not signed by the actual authors. They are instead signed by Rich Thomas.
Up coming Antagonist and Bestiary pdfs: (http://theonyxpath.com/princes-gambit-joy-exalted-plans-monday-meeting-notes/)
QuoteSo what we have planned are two projects that we are going to start releasing in April. That’s right, in order to provide our community with playable material now and not waiting until the Arms of the Chosen Advance PDF is released three months from now, we’re going to be releasing a section of each book each month as PDFs.
The first book, EX3: Antagonists, will feature both individual NPCs as well as antagonist groups. Each section will be smaller than a chapter, and we’ll be combining them all together as a PDF and PoD book after we have made a good number of them available monthly.
The second book will be the EX3 Bestiary, and will features creatures of all power levels. Some will be creatures the writers of the core had to hold back on, and others will be new and determined by what gaps we see from the core book that this project can fill. We’ll release these in monthly sections that we’ll combine at some point into a book, as well.
Rather than adding projects to the new devs’ already intimidating plate, both these books will be spearheaded by writers familiar with EX3, and reviewed by Eric and Robert. (Also, both books need to be approved by the new White Wolf Publishing before we officially can go ahead with them.)
I guess we should start a new thread if anyone is interested.
I find the line between Antagonists and Bestiary to be an exceedingly thin one in Exalted;).
I know Sheppard got seriously 'not my fault' about some art piece of Karal Fire Orchid. Wish I could see what in the hell they've going on about.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;956190I know Sheppard got seriously 'not my fault' about some art piece of Karal Fire Orchid. Wish I could see what in the hell they've going on about.
Oh yeah, the Boob Armor thing. That was pretty much par for the course over there though so was Sheppherd essentially throwing someone under the bus over it cover his his own ass.
Quote from: Nexus;956195Oh yeah, the Boob Armor thing. That was pretty much par for the course over there though so was Sheppherd essentially throwing someone under the bus over it cover his his own ass.
Here's the "Sheppherd approved" version he's referring to: http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Uran_Karal_FireOrchid.png (http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Uran_Karal_FireOrchid.png)
Here is the deaded, maligned and nefarious "boob armor" version as she appears elsewhere in the art: http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Exalted_Three-Suns-Standing_final_v3-232x300.jpg (http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Exalted_Three-Suns-Standing_final_v3-232x300.jpg)
Draw your own conclusions. Me? I'm baffled.
Quote from: Azraele;956197Here's the "Sheppherd approved" version he's referring to: http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Uran_Karal_FireOrchid.png (http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Uran_Karal_FireOrchid.png)
Here is the deaded, maligned and nefarious "boob armor" version as she appears elsewhere in the art: http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Exalted_Three-Suns-Standing_final_v3-232x300.jpg (http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Exalted_Three-Suns-Standing_final_v3-232x300.jpg)
Draw your own conclusions. Me? I'm baffled.
Wait. that second picture was being praised when it was posted weeks ago...?
Quote from: Nexus;956198Wait. that second picture was being praised when it was posted weeks ago...?
Keep up, Nexus. We have always been at war with Karal Fire Orchid.
Quote from: Baulderstone;956206Keep up, Nexus. We have always been at war with Karal Fire Orchid.
"The final madness of the First Age God Kings that threw the Dragonblood Host into their totally righteous and completely justifed heroic war against the sick demented glowing popular peop- err Overlords. was the requirement that Boobplate be worn by all female, female identifying and those with somewhat enlarged pectorals."
It just occurred to me that the "horrible" boob armor pic appears to recieve some actual effort and is more beautiful. We got to see three different people and a beautiful landscape that the three are walking in.
The "proper" art is plain white background, only one character, and it looks like less effort was put in. It just screams ugly to me.
Quote from: Snowman0147;956212It just occurred to me that the "horrible" boob armor pic apoears to recieve some actual effort and is more beautiful. We got to see three different people and a beautiful landscape that the three are walking in.
The "proper" art is plain white background, only one character, and it looks like less effort was put in. It just screams ugly to me.
Not ugly so much as amateur.
jg
Quote from: James Gillen;956234Not ugly so much as amateur.
jg
I don't know, they have the proportions right, or close enough. The colouring is well chosen and makes the character pop, and the pose doesn't intersect with the body.
It's ugly as hell, but it's professionally done.
Quote from: Azraele;956197Here's the "Sheppherd approved" version he's referring to: http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Uran_Karal_FireOrchid.png (http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Uran_Karal_FireOrchid.png)
Here is the deaded, maligned and nefarious "boob armor" version as she appears elsewhere in the art: http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Exalted_Three-Suns-Standing_final_v3-232x300.jpg (http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Exalted_Three-Suns-Standing_final_v3-232x300.jpg)
Draw your own conclusions. Me? I'm baffled.
Quote from: Snowman0147;956212It just occurred to me that the "horrible" boob armor pic appears to recieve some actual effort and is more beautiful. We got to see three different people and a beautiful landscape that the three are walking in.
The "proper" art is plain white background, only one character, and it looks like less effort was put in. It just screams ugly to me.
My conclusion is that both are nothing that I'd want to have in print;).
It amusing that one of the other Pregens in the Jumpstart is "I fight in a thong or my own set of impractical armor that no one mentions." Volfer.
When the Hell did Exalted become about being "practical" anyway?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;956236I don't know, they have the proportions right, or close enough. The colouring is well chosen and makes the character pop, and the pose doesn't intersect with the body.
It's ugly as hell, but it's professionally done.
So they squeezed all the fun out of something to appeal to some loud mouthed thin skinned zealots who are just going to move on to the next that "triggers" them anyways....
Sounds like par for the course.
Quote from: Snowman0147;956212It just occurred to me that the "horrible" boob armor pic appears to recieve some actual effort and is more beautiful. We got to see three different people and a beautiful landscape that the three are walking in.
The "proper" art is plain white background, only one character, and it looks like less effort was put in. It just screams ugly to me.
I'd make some allowances for the fact that the later picture is an illustration for a pre-gen character sheet, and the earlier picture is a full page illustration. They are meeting different requirements and probably aren't operating on the same payscale.
Neither illustration is anything I would usually complain about if I saw it a in a book, but neither really interests me. The earlier one does have a nice landscape, but it's got the same problem as the old Dragonlance novel covers. Someone went to a lot of trouble to paint a static tourist snap of three characters doing close to nothing. The artist went to more effort, but it just isn't an interesting moment.
Quote from: Nexus;956253It amusing that one of the other Pregens in the Jumpstart is "I fight in a thong or my own set of impractical armor that no one mentions." Volfer.
When the Hell did Exalted become about being "practical" anyway?
That's my take on the whole thing. Anyone making an argument about practicality in Exalted fundamentally fails to understand the game. If people want to complain about boob plate being sexist, they are entitled to their opinion. If they want to argue about boob plate in Exalted being impractical, they are morons.
Quote from: Nexus;956198Wait. that second picture was being praised when it was posted weeks ago...?
So my off hand comment about someone complaining about boobplate about a dozen pages ago was correct?
I need to play the lotto.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;956262So my off hand comment about someone complaining about boobplate about a dozen pages ago was correct?
I need to play the lotto.
Yeah, you called it. We should have started a betting pool.
Quote from: Baulderstone;956257That's my take on the whole thing. Anyone making an argument about practicality in Exalted fundamentally fails to understand the game. If people want to complain about boob plate being sexist, they are entitled to their opinion. If they want to argue about boob plate in Exalted being impractical, they are morons.
The impracticality and gonzo used to a feature of Exalted, one of the selling points but not now. Difficult to imagine the current fans participating in an NC-17 content contest.
Quote from: Nexus;956273Yeah, you called it. We should have started a betting pool.
The betting would have been about the timing, though, we all knew it would happen;)!
Closed for size. Start a new one if you like.