... or try to use any other financial mechanisms that are usually ignored in fantasy RPGs?
How'd did it go? How did you rule it? Was everyone else comfortable with it?
Do you approve of such methods in fantasy?
I've seen loans a few times in RPGs.
Runequest 1 and 2 included borrowing money from a guild/cult to buy spells as part of the character creation process.
Call of Cthulhu - pretty obvious since loans are a thing in the world CoC is based on.
Traveller uses loans for ownership of a free trader space ship. So pretty integral to that.
Star Wars - the smuggler group regularly took out and repaid loans. Since their banker was a loan shark, the rates were high.
Flashing Blades allows one to take out a loan - which might make sense as a way of buying into a higher office or rank.
In a number of historical and fantasy games we use some version of a letter or credit as a way of carrying "money" without needing all that heavy coinage.
I'm fine with including loans. One caveat: I'd want the type of financial instrument to roughly correspond to something appropriate for the setting. Not all cultures had the idea of loans with interest.
In my experience, players usually don't want to have their characters pay the sort of interest rates that any reasonably intelligent lender would place on a loan to people of their sort. Most PCs don't own property or tangible assets, have no fixed abode, travel a lot, and are engaged in a high risk profession. So their interest rate is going to be very high to account for the risk.
Pathfinder's default setting actually has a "God of Civilization", that is also the god of merchants, Abadar. Usury was fairly common in ye olde medieval times, though "technically" forbidden to Christians (hence why so many Jews got into banking).
Happens when the PCs are desperate for cash like for a Raise or Identify and want it ASAP.
That could be a monetary loan, or a quest.
Many times.
It was one of the benefits of belonging to a temple in RQ. You could get them to train you in magic or skills and pay them back later...if you lived.
I never computed interest, but usually the temple did stuff like go on this quest, slay these foes and you can pay us out of the loot.
I had it happen in Gamma World lots too, but instead of money, it was "our town loans you X items or X beasties for your quest, bring them back and bring us some loot too." Sometimes, I'd even start players off with some gear, based on the understanding they were entrusted with them from the elders and they had to bring them back with some swag or trade them eventually for some really cool bits.
It was a low level / low magic thing. I never did it in high fantasy settings. Oddly, I should have some examples in Warhammer where you would think that would happen often, but I don't remember any.
Lending is a pretty old practice, so I don't see the issue. The only thing to worry about really are the details and if they are too sophisticated or not sophisticated enough for the time period you are emulating.
Many times.
Even in settings that haven't developed dedicated banking networks or interest yet, you will have no trouble to find local I.O.U.s, pawn houses and hock shops - as well as institutions like merchant guilds or churches that may be very happy to tie you up for the small price of a little advance payment.
Most recently in DCC, a PC with too little money left to buy rations after squandering it all on a new armor had become indebted to another PC sharing food, and had that going on for a while due to continued misfortune in finding sellable treasure. (Not much of a market for magic items in the homebrew campaign setting.) A recent windfall has taken care of the loan now, but it could have become interesting...
Credit is also ancient but it usually depended on collateral up front.
Pendragon has rules for lending money from Jewish or Italian lenders in The Book of the Manor. Find a pawnbroker may be difficult because of the general disdain for usury in the Knightly Christian code of ethics. If the campaign takes place in the later years of Pendragon, the Jewish population is protected by King Arthur's desire for peace for all people, including the Saxons and the Jews.
Only one of my players took advantage of the system, as most were Christian Knights. He bought a Gambling House, which does show his stand on morality.
All the time. I've had PC's (who never considered that banking and moneylending was even an in-game practice) get hired to act as enforcers for a money-lender to go pick up people that welched. Instead of doing the ol' "Caravan Guard concept" - to get the PC's from point A to point B - I had them chasing this guy for the Temple of Waukeen (God of merchants). The Waukeen temples are banks for the regional nobility and merchant class. This allowed the PC's to deal directly with the institution as a locality in each place they went, rather than having to always return to their original starting city. It also let them accrue faction with the bank so they could take out loans and get lots of perks wherever they went.
The thing with money is that the GM has to *really* enforce the living standards of their game with the PC's to make it have a solid impact. Especially with the idea that "gold pieces" aren't just tossed around by the average populace. The average non-skilled worker makes 1sp a day or so. Which I believe they brought back in 5e. Non-adventuring commoners used to earn just 3gp a month in 2e. So consider how you want your economy to operate and stick to it. By and large it's always been a silver-standard for the normal schmo.
By enforcing this reality it does two important things if done right - it makes your game more immersive and opens up a lot of RP opportunities for a little extra book-keeping. Well worth it, in moderation, to me.
Another ironic thing that most people don't consider is the "caravan guard" schtick can be looked at from a few different ways. For a general freelancing adventurer, it's a guy willing to protect the cargo, right? But for real merchant guilds and trading costers - those travel routes themselves were guarded from the use of other competitors. Who do you think is doing that work? Certainly allows for adventurer types to work for merchant companies and costers to do trade-route patrol to keep it clear. It's nothing different than doing standard caravan duty except it's search and destroy instead of guard and protect. Plus there's nothing to say for having rival caravan merchants doing some road-warrior skirmishing over a disputed traderoute. Maybe they wanna take over the route? Maybe the adventurers themselves are hired to do this!
Lots of downstream possibilities. Be considerate of how these lending institutions are viewed too. Consider that even using these things lightly will make one realize how powerful these "banks" and "moneylenders" can be. Especially if your game indulges their presence for a long time. I had this one NPC who was just supposed to be a stand-in for the head of a commerce guild, he turned into the Kingpin of Crime after a year or so of general gaming due to the influence afforded to him by the PC's mutually scratching one anothers backs with him (then the PC's hired an assassin to kill him - and took over all his shit... dirty PC's...)
Edited for clarity
Not done it too much in fantasy, but in Traveller, yeah, no prob.
I've never played with a prohibition on usury. It's too much fun. In fact, Thyatis sponsors Royal Banks in major cities. But you need to be 9th level, a noble or filthy rich in order to use one.
Your post was full of great ideas tenbones.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;784574Your post was full of great ideas tenbones.
Consider the entirety of the bullshit economics system which you can employ for adventuring purposes if you assume banking and/or merchant economies exist. There are some simple systems you can use from 2e that simulate this. I'm working on hybridizing one from the Spelljammer system. This is a REALLY rough outline...
1) Each region has a list of things it must offer in terms of trade. Foodstuffs, basics, etc. You can set a standard rate for this by units. Say a d6 for several hundreds of pounds of "basic stuff" = 1 unit. PC's with a merchant background will start with 3 units of basic stuff. 10 units roughly is 1-ton's worth of space. This should give you good reason to justify the BIG caravans, or ship-requirements.
2) Every time the Merchant enters a different port, he may buy and sell cargo. The exact cargo exchanged is not important. As a result of the exchange, the Merchant makes 1d6gp profit per unit of cargo. (Thus, a new Merchant earns 3d6 gp profit every time he changes ports.) The DM may reduce or even eliminate this profit if he feels that the two ports are close enough together to make such trading unprofitable. Or the value could be downgraded.
3) A Merchant may add to his cargo by investing money. As a rule, each 50gp invested will purchase one additional unit of cargo. This cargo may then be used for further trading in the next port. This is also where you can insert a lot of the banking RP. Consider the dangers of enforcing the payment of gold and shipping it! Yeah - gold is heavy. PC's in a wagon full of chests of tradebars? Ripe for the pickings! The downstream effects of robbing PC from rival Merchants, Rogues guilds, outlaws, etc. make this far more interesting. Evolve it to carrying sealed bank-notes in lieu of actual gold? No problem. Makes it easier to carry - no less dangerous to be caught carrying.
4) In an emergency, in lieu of making a profit, a Merchant may liquidate his cargo by selling it off. Each unit of cargo sold produces ld6x 10 gp. The Merchant may lose money by selling the cargo for less than his investment, but it is presumed that the Merchant may have to sell at a loss.
The Merchant is not required to sell all of his cargo when he liquidates. However, he must decide how much cargo to sell before making the roll. Once he has decided how much to liquidate, he may not liquidate any more until he travels to a new port or one month has passed
Pretty straightforward as a supplementary system if your campaign allows it. If you want to make it *more* interesting with a little bit more of complexity - you can assign a new axis where the more valuable the cargo, the higher the die-code.
Junk Cargo = d4
Basic Cargo = d6
Uncommon = d8
Valuable Cargo = d10
Rare Cargo = d12
Exotic Cargo = d20
Then you can allow the respective player to make a Cha check to sell it in each port for a possible higher die-code? Each roll taking 1d6 days (or whatever). There's a lot of potential tweaking that can be done here - Disadvantage for selling contraband but at an higher rate? Advantage for selling legal in-demand items. Having a smuggler contact or fence - to give you the Assist bonus?
I'm still working it out. The idea is to allow the PC(s) who are into this kinda thing - or even NPC's- to do it all with a quick roll or two and the GM can give it as much RP attention as they like, at any step of the procedure. It's like an adventure machine if you like doing urban games with wilderness travel tossed in.
(if this all sounds like madness - I've been drinking... so I ramble...)
Like many others, my PCs have had loans from temples in RQ. We generally played them as interest free, train/buy now, play later. Of course, cults tended to get their money's worth by sending us on dangerous cult missions.
In other games/settings, loans should be OK, assuming that the person asking for the loan has a reasonable chance if playing the money back on time. We have often pawned items to raise cash, then bought them back later on.
In an Alternate Earth setting, loans are still available from Jews (who cannot benefit from usury to other Jews, but are fine when lending to Gentiles), Lombards (who have found a little trick - they buy items at a reduced rate and sell them back later on at an increased rate) and Templars (I cannot remember why they were allowed to lend money). Otherwise, interest-free loans are fine, as no monetary benefit is gained, this is what Guilds used to do - loan money to guildsmen interest free and expect higher guild fees when the guildsmen advance.
Quote from: Bren;784510In my experience, players usually don't want to have their characters pay the sort of interest rates that any reasonably intelligent lender would place on a loan to people of their sort. Most PCs don't own property or tangible assets, have no fixed abode, travel a lot, and are engaged in a high risk profession. So their interest rate is going to be very high to account for the risk.
+1.
I've had players
ask, of course, but like with Bren's experience, many have the notion that the interest rates should be in line with modern-day prime lending rates, rather than at levels making current payday loan interest rates look mild.
Two of my players have loans out, right now. One is a war hero resigned to paying his usurious mortgage rate. The other was, at the time of the loan, a landowner who was a protege of the Emperor and married to his cousin, the Admiral of the Imperial Navy; she's since been named governor of the empire's capital city, and is likely considered a good risk. ;)
a few times.
One must first have, as Tenbones recommended, a firm grasp on the economics of the setting (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/44074324/More%20on%20the%20Economy%20of%20the%20Cradle). Secondly, one must determine ahead of time what level of economic sophistication exists, and what level of taxation and types of taxation are there.
Borrowing from or through one's guild is easier than borrowing from one of the banks or syndicates, and the interest rates and collateral can be very high. Defaulting on payment is a criminal offense, as well, in many places.
In a setting where the PCs regularly run businesses or play heavy politics, being able to borrow money only makes sense.
In RuneQuest (Chaosium's 1st/2nd editions), I found that almost every character started at age 15 (and not a rich noble) went into debt right away to get skill training and possibly a spell or two. In the campaigns I played, loans could also be taken to purchase equipment.
Older characters created with the "background experience" rules were less likely to go that route.
In Traveller, starting with a starship usually means starting with a mortgage.
In old D&D, MUs are commonly lenders to other characters early on, since they have less need of equipment.
Quote from: Ravenswing;784840+1.
I've had players ask, of course, but like with Bren's experience, many have the notion that the interest rates should be in line with modern-day prime lending rates, rather than at levels making current payday loan interest rates look mild.
Two of my players have loans out, right now. One is a war hero resigned to paying his usurious mortgage rate. The other was, at the time of the loan, a landowner who was a protege of the Emperor and married to his cousin, the Admiral of the Imperial Navy; she's since been named governor of the empire's capital city, and is likely considered a good risk. ;)
In RuneQuest, defaulting on a loan of the sort commonly made to adventurers will open a can of whupass from the gods. You
will pay, one way or another!
I did, yes, but they were lending from a demigod, to do a job they were actually hired, so let's just say the loan was easily granted, as they had good coverage in, well, being hired to do a certain task.
If you want to be a mean DM and play around with economics more, use money shortage - a shortage of actual minted coin in pre - paper/modern banking society. This'd force the PCs into loans not really to invest money, but to just hold cash for actual deals on the road.
In spite of prohibitions on Usury, it was certainly something that commonly happened in medieval society (hence the ongoing attempts to ban it).
In my games, I've occasionally had characters take out loans, usually with the expected hilarious results.
Do keep in mind too that in medieval loans, it was not at all uncommon to have rates of interest of 100% or more.
Quote from: RPGPundit;787058In spite of prohibitions on Usury, it was certainly something that commonly happened in medieval society (hence the ongoing attempts to ban it).
Pace my old ancient & classical law prof, "If you want to know what's going on in a society, look at what's outlawed. Nobody writes a law to stop something that nobody's doing."
At the end of the Serpent of Venice, Christopher Moore discusses the character of Shylock, the concepts of usury and the treatment of Jews in that time period. If you are looking to incorporate banking and loans I do recomend both the author's notes and the book itself.
And remember! When everyone in the kingdom's in heavy debt to the moneylenders, it's time for expulsion/witchcraft trials!
Quote from: Rincewind1;787141And remember! When everyone in the kingdom's in heavy debt to the moneylenders, it's time for expulsion/witchcraft trials!
How democratic. Usually it doesn't take everyone in debt, just enough of the powerful in debt.
Quote from: Bren;787155How democratic. Usually it doesn't take everyone in debt, just enough of the powerful in debt.
Or the right people. The whole aristocracy doesn't need to be in hock too deep for the pogroms to start; all it takes is the monarch.
Then again, the rationale behind that I firmly believe PCs should almost never be the richest people around is simple: if you have gold, the ruler will tax it away. If you resist, his army will come to stomp you. If you are unstompable, then you are the ruler.
Quote from: Ravenswing;787196Or the right people. The whole aristocracy doesn't need to be in hock too deep for the pogroms to start; all it takes is the monarch.
If the monarch had the power to do that. Though I suspect most monarchs where not sufficiently absolute in their rule to get rid of the money lenders without strong support from the noblity or other elements of the country and thoughtful rulers (or their finance ministers) tried to ensure they had a new group of creditors in the wings before getting rid of the old creditors.
Did someone say Knight's Templars?
I don't necessarily recall anyone taking a loan; I think I've seen PCs ask about it before but the terms were usually too steep for them.
In my D&D Bronze Age game, the group did trade with a moneylender NPC but only to exchange coins. He gave them progressively worse exchange rates as they used up his platinum reserves.
He also acted as a bank. The PCs were less than thrilled when he charged them various transaction and account fees every time they did anything with the accounts.
It got really ugly when one of the group died and they found out their banking contract relinquished all monies from deceased customers to the bank. They eventually concoct a scheme to have a new PC pose as a relative, though they still got hit with a transfer fee.
The breaking point was when they couldn't access their money because the shop was closed for one of the moneylender's holy days. They left a threatening note on the door with a dagger, causing the moneylender to abscond with all of their money.
I admit, I had a lot of fun messing with the group with that NPC (who was an over the top stereotype to begin with).
Quote from: Skyrock;787338Did someone say Knight's Templars?
The debts that the King of France and others had to the Knights Templar was hardly a "conspiracy theory". The conspiracy-theory is the idea that the Templars actually had some kind of secret wisdom that the Pope wanted to get rid of.
Quote from: daniel_ream;787064Pace my old ancient & classical law prof, "If you want to know what's going on in a society, look at what's outlawed. Nobody writes a law to stop something that nobody's doing."
Exactly!