When you start up a new game do you expect everyone at the table to have their own copy of the rules? Do you loan your books out? Do you send out PDF copies of the rules before the game starts?
I can't think of a single game I've played/GMed where everyone owned the game... most of the time it's just the GM.
Usually there are photocopies of relevant rules pages floating around the table... and lately it's not unusual for the GM to send out a PDF of the complete rulebook.
Ignoring the complicated/nonsensical legalities of the whole situation... what do you think is the norm? Is there a significant ethical difference between loaning your book at the table, or even to take and read... vs. giving someone a PDF copy?
I'm not talking loading it up on a torrent for the entire world... just within an actual group of players.
Most games allow you to photocopy for personal use anything within the game. So I imagine that its okay to send a PDF to someone who wants a copy for the purposes of playing in your campaign. As long as you aren't selling it to them you shouldn't really feel like you've crossed a line. I guess there could be an exception to this (ex. if you give everyone a copy of the game on pdf and one of them says 'great now I don't have to buy it to run my own game'). But I can't imagine that happening.
When I ran Mage, I routinely photocopied out the general information about what could be accomplished using the different spheres of magic. It made it much easier for the players to quickly find out what they were capable of doing with their magic. Which was never as grand as they thought it should be. ;)
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;410876Most games allow you to photocopy for personal use anything within the game.
That's not true. Most games permit you to photocopy select pages for personal use, though it's not going to ruffle too many feathers. That said, I don't have a problem with people sharing my PDFs within their group.
Quote from: brettmb;410877That's not true. Most games permit you to photocopy select pages for personal use, though it's not going to ruffle too many feathers. That said, I don't have a problem with people sharing my PDFs within their group.
Ack! busted. Yes, you are correct. That's what I get for posting in a rush and not really thinking about it.
Well, my opinion involves post-scarcity economics... :D
...so in order to avoid a long rant, suffice it to say no, I don't have a problem sharing a PDF within the group, so long as they don't upload it anywhere online. Especially considering the ones I've purchased have my name embedded in them!
However, most of the time I don't have to lend it to them, for obvious reasons. I still encourage the purchase of physical books within my group, though, as they're easier to reference at the table, and it helps support the creator(s).
I know of quite a few groups that do not play with any books at all.
The players make up their characters and the GM makes up his setting, scenarios and adventures.
In most other cases I usually see that the GM has the books and they share the books as needed with the players at the table.
Usually 1-2 people will buy a hard copy, and the rest make do. As a DM I always make sure I have a hard copy. Sometimes I even have two copies if I find a spare one on the cheap.
I don't like using only PDFs, but if there's one available I'll send one out if a player asks. I'd let them borrow a book so I'll let them see a PDF.
Round here players aren't generally expected to buy game related books. Considering that, historically most games I've played have lasted no more that 4-5 sessions, buying the rules for every game I play in would seem like an overkill.
I also shy away from heavy crunch systems so there generally isn't much rule-checking required so that might explain it too.
I'm just guessing but I think the switch from "you describe what you want to do and the GM tell you what to roll" to "everyone needs to have their own copy of the rules" style of play started with D&D3e. Might have been a WoD thing too, not sure but WoD players always seemed to have more books on their taables than anyone else.
In the groups I game(d) with it has almost always been a case of only the GM having a rulebook. In my current WFRP campaign, we have two rule books, which is nice, since the system is new to most of the participants. Copies will be passed around and lend to people who need/want to check out stuff.
The big exception was the D&D 3.5 group I played with a couple of years ago. Back then, almost every player had his own copy of Players Handbook at hand and at a normal night there was 3-4 copies of the Dungeon Masters Guide by the table.
Quote from: Simlasa;410874When you start up a new game do you expect everyone at the table to have their own copy of the rules? Do you loan your books out? Do you send out PDF copies of the rules before the game starts?
I never expect players to own a copy of the rules. As I don't run systems where "system mastery: is important, players don't need to be rules experts. They can just tell me what they characters do I'll tell them what happens/what to roll.
I'm currently running Microlite75 and I print out copies for my players. Half never bother to bring them and I suspect about one-third have never read them beyond what little info they need to play their character.
As for the ethics of loaning books, I see nothing wrong with it. Yes, authors/publishers would like everyone who wants to read their book to buy a new copy instead of borrowing a copy from a friend or the library -- or buying a used copy. And I'd really like everyone to take out a contract with me for computer service too. Reality bites.
I don't have an answer on PDFs as I don't really use them in games. I need a printed copy to run a copy from. I would have no more trouble loaning out my printed copy of a PDF than I would any other book.
- No, I never expect everyone to have their own copy of the rules.
- Yes, I do loan books out.
- I usually give out a PDF document containing information on the setting, basic set up, house rules, that kind of thing after our first brainstorm session and before the characters are generated.
It's also not uncommon since legal game PDFs are common place for me to print out copies of spell lists and such for the players during the game. I did that with Arcana Evolved for instance, and it worked great in practice.
I hope usually most GMs out there are not expecting players to own the rules. I'm guessing this is the case, particularly as the use of laptops and various props become more and more common place in gaming.
I don't make my friends own their own copies of video games or board games that we play...I see no reason to make them do the same with RPGs.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;410911I don't make my friends own their own copies of video games or board games that we play...I see no reason to make them do the same with RPGs.
Exactly.
I loan physical books where needed - usually not applicable.
I share books at the table during play.
If the game is one I wrote, I will send game pdfs to the players if needed - usually for IRC play only. I can and do ignore my own copyright! :D
If the game is not one I wrote, I will send only short bits of text if needed - unless there is a legal freely downloadable version, in which case I will send it or link to it as required. I do not violate anyone else's copyright!
-clash
I have 12 copies of the Players Handbook I let folks use if the need is there.
Most of my group have their own, so at this point it's just the new guy and my wife who need "loaners".
I got that many PHBs because when I have con gamed I made sure every seat had one at it.
The short answer is I don't expect my players to own their own books.
The longer answer is more complicated. For our heavily played games, players often chose to purchase their own books. That was perfectly fine with me. We still have our own copies of AD&D PHBs floating around in the various homes and apartments. But as the primary viking hat wearer, I own the most stuff and let the friends I trust borrow things liberally.
Now, for an expensive, single-volume book or something we don't play regularly, the picture gets cloudier. If you're lucky, the publisher provides some kind of free quick-play rules or reference document. I love those sorts of things, and encourage people to print/bring/read them. As a player, I seek and bring them to the table too, because I also don't expect my GM to hand over his only book whenever I want to look something up. I've also seen some clever character sheets/cheat sheets that hide rules right on them.
When you're on your own, I've done similar to what Benoist was hinting at with his spell lists: Make a packet. Get chargen, equipment, combat options, skill info and anything else you think the players are going to want to keep looking up and build a file or packet. It saves you time at the table and the lifespan of your book.
I was asking about this here because over on another site I frequent (The Miniatures Page), the topic came up of one guy who wanted to send a copy of a game PDF (for a 2 player wargame) to a guy he was planning to play with.
The folks over there got their panties in a Gordian Knot over telling him how 'unethical' and 'absolutely illegal' that was... a few small game publishers also chimed in about how much profit they are 'losing to piracy like that'.
I don't see any problem with it... but sometimes I find out my opinions are... less than mainstream.
Meh. Digital items don't have any market value. I pay for them because I want to support the creators and I want more of that particular type of content, not because of imaginary ethics.
If someone chooses to use digital content and not contribute, that is their choice, but they're shooting themselves in the foot.
I'd prefer people not share my PDF's without asking first.
I don't mind sharing a physical book.
I myself send out PDF's of games I wrote as needed for friends, players, etc.
As usual, I'd like people to pay for my hard work. I'm quite poor you see. I manage, but a little extra money helps. I won't beg for it, just do the work that I can and hope it is worth something to someone.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;410911I don't make my friends own their own copies of video games or board games that we play...I see no reason to make them do the same with RPGs.
Quite. I see no moral imperative to buy products we have no use for, and in the vast majority of cases we simply have no need for more than one book.
People either have or don't have their own rulebooks. Depends on the game. If we're trying out a new game, usually just I have a copy.
If I had a PDF, I might loan it out, asking the person using it to delete it afterward. I wouldn't loan it out to someone who didn't agree to those terms.
But usually I don't have PDFs 'cause I don't like 'em too much.
Seanchai
I like at least 2 copies of the 'core' book or relevant materials to be available. Sometimes I will purchase an additional copy (used) to facilitate. I will loan to friends and share PDF's though I prefer print medium at the table.
:)
In most games I run here I'm the only one with the book. In many of the games I run here I'm the only one IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY with the book.
I do not have a policy of giving out PDFs to people, but nor would I ever expect them to buy their own books.
I know that nowadays the powers-that-be are trying to convince us that "if you lend someone a book you're committing PIRACY, and that's COMMUNISM and its a CRIME", but none of those things are actually true, and they can go fuck themselves.
The whole idea that someone would actually be morally outraged at person a lending person b a book rather than forcing them to either buy the book themselves or do without is just a complete ultra-conservative wank fantasy. I don't get how people who aren't usually ultraconservative wankers can believe it with a straight face.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;411112In most games I run here I'm the only one with the book. In many of the games I run here I'm the only one IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY with the book.
I do not have a policy of giving out PDFs to people, but nor would I ever expect them to buy their own books.
I know that nowadays the powers-that-be are trying to convince us that "if you lend someone a book you're committing PIRACY, and that's COMMUNISM and its a CRIME", but none of those things are actually true, and they can go fuck themselves.
The whole idea that someone would actually be morally outraged at person a lending person b a book rather than forcing them to either buy the book themselves or do without is just a complete ultra-conservative wank fantasy. I don't get how people who aren't usually ultraconservative wankers can believe it with a straight face.
RPGPundit
100% win.
A lot of this copyright crap is just getting ridiculous. Say I buy a book, like, "The prefect" and after I'm done I let a friend read it. Am I violating some law? Well, fuck the law if I am, when it makes somehting like that illegal, it deserves to be broken.
Likewise recently I took about 30 old books to an animal shelter store to sell to raise money for the animals. Was I violating copyright by selling the used books? Would I be violating copyright if I donated used DVDs to the shelter store? In both cases, if I am I don't give a damn.
If I choose to loan a rulebook to someone so they can see if they want into a game, I'll damn well do it, and if the law doesn't like it, GOOD!
It's just getting ridiculous, like you can't even lend a friend a DVD or book now. Hell with it.