TheRPGSite

Well, I just submitted my top picks for the ENnies. Feels good to have it submitted.  On Tuesday, we should see the voting results, break any ties, finalize the nominess, and on July 8, I think the nominess are released.

I don't know how close some of the other judges will be to me on decisions, but I do know there might be some pleasantly surprised folks this year.  I think we're looking at a good mix--but let's see what the other judges say.

Anyhow, felt like celebrating.  Woooo! :)  No more Bill Corrie sending his tawdry squirrel novellas to be judged! :p

Quote from: Zachary The First;220725Anyhow, felt like celebrating.  Woooo! :)  No more Bill Corrie sending his tawdry squirrel novellas to be judged! :p

Hey now! Watch it, or I might not send you Freedom Squirrel complete with the Orderly, a time traveling alien who loves to stick his nose in where it does not belong. (Oh, and he has a sonic nutcracker. You know that has to hurt).

Congrats!

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;220745Hey now! Watch it, or I might not send you Freedom Squirrel complete with the Orderly, a time traveling alien who loves to stick his nose in where it does not belong. (Oh, and he has a sonic nutcracker. You know that has to hurt).

Congrats!

Bill

Thanks!  It's time for a little break.

Hey, if I'm a judge again next year, in all honesty, I hope you send more squirrel products.  They were fun to go through, and refreshing.

We are finalizing the nominees right now.

I am slamming my head into the wall repeatedly.

Sweet christ

I am definitely not in a majority here.

Details, man.

DETAILS.

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity;220963Details, man.

DETAILS.

Still some surprises, still some new faces.

Alas, many of the products I loved best were doomed to anonymity.  Perhaps I loved too well.

As soon as I'm able, as promised, I'll share my nominees.  It'll likely have to wait until the actual nominees come out, which will be on the 8th, I think...

Much more to go...

Quote from: Zachary The First;220965Still some surprises, still some new faces.

Alas, many of the products I loved best were doomed to anonymity.  Perhaps I loved too well.

As soon as I'm able, as promised, I'll share my nominees.  It'll likely have to wait until the actual nominees come out, which will be on the 8th, I think...

Much more to go...

Don't worry Zach, I wont hold it against you. ;)

Bill

This is cool! Thanks Zach for the inside ball!

Edit: Just cause you're being so nice and all and showing how the pizza is made, I so swear not to report on any... uh... critters.

Let me explain, for the benefit of those following along at home, what is happening behind the curtain right now:

Each judge submitted 7 products in each category (except for Best Product, which gets 12).  These are each assigned a point value, Denise @ the ENnies tabulates them, and we go from there.  Some of the categories are every close, and if some folks feel strongly about a product and have another product which hasn't made the top 7 or 8, they can discuss, plead, persuade, etc., on adjusting the categories a bit.  Top 5 are nominees; #6 is an honorable mention.

I have a lot of products which right now are not going to make into the ENnies--that does mean that I think the products in there are crap or anything.  I have multiple products I've done a little lobbying on.  There are two products that I feel very, very strongly should be represented, and I am currently typing up why I feel they should get one last look.  None of this guarantees anything, but I'll feel better knowing I left it on the playing field.  The finalizing goes on, and I hold out hope.  There are some categories I think are great, and many were tough calls.  I just really fell strongly about a couple of products, and feel they deserve every ounce of effort I can give--just like any product submitted deserves the best look possible.

This has been a rough night for me, as I felt a lot of products showcased the diversity and depth of quality in gaming got shut down.  But there are many deserving products, deserving enough that our 4 ENWorld-based judges felt like voting for them.  And there were many products we ALL voted on, unanimously or nearly unanimously.  But you guys know you love contreversy, argument, and conflict--that's a big reason why awards are popular in the first place.

I promised to be as open through this as possible, and I am damn well seeing through in keeping that.  Without spoiling the awards, I'll be keeping this up till we're done.

What is the qualifying timeframe for releases again? GenCon 07 up until right now? And are WOTC part of it?

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity;220996What is the qualifying timeframe for releases again? GenCon 07 up until right now?

The cutouff date was like a month ago, but it went from Gen Con '07 till then.

QuoteAnd are WOTC part of it?

They are this year.  A lot of folks instantly assume whatever WotC is nominated, they'll win, because of their huge fanbase. Which is why a lot of publishers just consider getting nominated a prize.  Plus, there's Silver & Gold.   We'll see how it works out.

More about WotC, Paizo, and everyone else when I'm able.

Home from work.  Checked in to the site.  I think we might see a slight shift towards a few of the products I felt strongly about.  I made my case, and that's all I can do.

The results are supposed to finalized tonight.  Some tabulations we're still waiting on, like Best Rules and one or two others.  I think the ties are just about all broken, and things are being smoothed out.

Am I happy with everything?  No.  But its looking better than it was at first sight.  Hang on RPGSiters...this should be interesting.... :)

EDIT: I spoke too soon.  At this time, still being worked are Rules(!), Supplement, Setting(!), and Minis Product.

Thanks for these updates, Zachary the First!  While I don't like the trend of what you are relaying to us, it's really cool to get an inside (albeir justifiably obfuscated) look at the process.  Keep fighting for the little guy!

Quote from: walkerp;221203Thanks for these updates, Zachary the First!  While I don't like the trend of what you are relaying to us, it's really cool to get an inside (albeir justifiably obfuscated) look at the process.  Keep fighting for the little guy!

Well, I don't want to sound like that--I'm going for quality--be it big or little guy, and equal recognition of the same.

Yeah, it kills me not to be able to say more, but I figure a murky update is better than none.

Soooo....still waiting for those final categories.  Huh. Wonder what's going on?

In the meantime, a very few minor category switches/adjustments look like they're going through.  Good news for a few of the products I was in favor of is looking a little more likely--I waiting to hear back from one person one category, another I'm waiting on a category to be released, and there are about two more that I don't have strong hopes for, but are possibilities.  I won't get 'em all in, but I think the final results will be a bit more representative of all the judges, myself included. Again, listen to me talk without saying anything. :o

I do want to say, however this works out, I'm proud to be part of a hobby that has so many wonderfully creative people.  And just because you didn't get 'em this year, doesn't mean you won't next year, if you honor me or whomever it is with the trust of evaluating your hard work. :)

Geez, I can't wait to discuss this all with you guys.....

Well, now we're waiting on 2 categories.  And I am so far going 1-for-4 on changes I wanted that I'd mentioned before.  There's one in particular I am not giving up on, however.  As we head into the week's end, this might go on for a bit.

Still batting only 1-for-4 at this late hour.

Christ, am I on that different a wavelength here?  I thought I had a pretty goddamn good idea of what constituted quality in a gaming product.

Thanks Zach. Greatly appreciated!

Zach,
Not meaning anything nasty but could it be that the other judges simply look and say "Sure, its good, but no one will vote for it. No one has even heard of it. It would be a waste to nominate it." I can see that logic very easily with a public voted award. I mean, really, why nominate something if there is similar quality (or even slightly lesser) products with bigger fan base? Yeah, helpful and good exposure but from a judges point of view, you are setting up categories for fans to vote for their fav games. So, nominate the game with 300K sales or the one with 300?

Just sayin' man, ;)

Bill

Well, you know, I really think everyone wants to get it right.  And I'm cocksure enough that my default opinion is that I am right. :)  That makes it tough sometimes, especially when my convictions are really, really strong.

We'll see.  I think this will end up being a pretty good year for small press.  There will be some definite surprises.

As for me, its once more into the breach--I have one or two things I don't feel like conceding yet.  We have 6 remaining issues/confirmations, and voting should be done tonight.  Nominees go live on Tuesday (unless they push it back).

EDIT:  Looks like they might go Thursday instead.  They need a few days on the technical side of things, I think.

Done and done, I think.

Noms are released Thursday.  I think publishers who got a nod will be notified just ahead of that.

I'll say it again:  this is gonna be an interesting year!

The wait is killing me!  

Is there only one category for Podcasts/E-zines and Websites?

There is only the one Best Podcast/FanSite (to include E-zines) category this year.  That was the call the ENnies folks made.  One of the categories was lacking in enough entries to make it a category on its own--well, it could have been, but some of it would have been lame, to be honest.

The combined category was tougher, make no mistake, and it really was down to the wire, as much as any category we had.

So the awards nominations will be out tomorrow, and before the discussion, storm, and flaming starts, I wanted to put a few things out there:

1) I expect the ENnies announcement will come out sometime over the course of the day tomorrow. I will be at work until about 6:30 Eastern time, then I need to spend some time with the kids, etc. I will be online tomorrow night, and will peruse all the forums, boards, announcements, flame wars, and rants at that time. If you see a discussion you feel could use my input, leave a comment, PM, or shoot me an email! Heck, if you have a question, let me know! I'm all about being as accessible as possible!

2) Some of the judges are not comfortable facing the onslaught of commentary and unfortunate nastiness that generally seem to accompany the announcement of, well, anything in our hobby. That is their call. I'm willing to discuss anything under the sun, but please keep in mind that I need to respect the other judges' privacy (so know, I can't tell you what their vote sheet looked like, numbers 1 through 5). If they want to share, they'll share. I'll discuss as far as the nice ENnies folks will allow, and if I'm elected again next year, will push to make that discussion go even further.

3) Please don't ask me to say anything really not nice about a product. I get it--you'll be less than happy with some of the nominees or folks who missed the cut. Hey, I've got products I liked that missed out, too. I'm just asking you to remember whatever you or I think of a product, that's someone's baby. And as fairly and impartially as it needs to be judged for the awards, I'm not going to go off on how much I hated Game X or Podcast Y.

4) Stand by for more commentary as reactions for the awards nominations and reactions to the same unfold. And, as I said, if you see something I don't, keep me posted! Again, I aim to be as public and accessible as possible--that's what you guys elected me on, and that's what you're gonna get.

Quote from: Zachary The First;2236152) Some of the judges are not comfortable facing the onslaught of commentary and unfortunate nastiness that generally seem to accompany the announcement of, well, anything in our hobby. That is their call.

To my mind, some transparency and communication is a fundamental part of being an ENnie judge (one you are doing extremely well).  If they aren't up to sharing their decision-making process, then they shouldn't be judges.  It also makes me suspicious that they aren't confident in the validity of their own choices.  I'm hoping we can find out later which judges did not do a decent job of communication so we can not vote for them.

Kvetching aside, I'm looking forward to seeing some action!  

Thanks again, Zachary.

And they're out.

Notable locals: Roma Imperious and 2 Fisted Tales.

Other stuff I'm "thumbs up" on:
World on Fire, City of Brass, Pathfinder 1 & 8.

Links, please.

I can tell you what's not winning an ENnie for best website and that is the ENnies website.  Wow is that ever a mess both front and back side.  Come one people, at least make it simple!

Quote from: walkerp;223819Links, please.

First page of nominees:
http://www.ennieawards.com/08/2008noms-1.html

(publishers aren't out yet, so the meat really starts on page 2):
http://www.ennieawards.com/08/2008noms-2.html


Flyer with all the nominees:
http://www.ennieawards.com/08/08noms.pdf

Congrats Bill! Roma True 20 is truely deserving of the nomination.

To jump in here, I really don't think that was every a concern.  For example, two PDFs from Open Design LLC that were sold on the "patron" method were nominated.  It never even entered the discussion that considering there can't be that many copies of the product floating around out there, it would be difficult to compete with larger distributions.  From what I saw in the judges' discussion forums, whether a product stood a chance of winning never entered the consideration.  They were more concerned about awarding quality where deserved.

Quote from: HinterWelt;222305Zach,
Not meaning anything nasty but could it be that the other judges simply look and say "Sure, its good, but no one will vote for it. No one has even heard of it. It would be a waste to nominate it." I can see that logic very easily with a public voted award. I mean, really, why nominate something if there is similar quality (or even slightly lesser) products with bigger fan base? Yeah, helpful and good exposure but from a judges point of view, you are setting up categories for fans to vote for their fav games. So, nominate the game with 300K sales or the one with 300?

Just sayin' man, ;)

Bill

Thanks!

Well on first glance, it seems like a diverse enough range of companies and system to satisfy me.  There are probably some major things missing, but I am never sure what year certain stuff came out in (like where is Reign?) so I can't be sure.

But that Best Product has some serious competition in it.  Aces & Eights, Star Wars Saga, Pirate's Guide to Freeport (which I may have to vote for on principle), Solomon Kane.  

Good year for gaming anyways!

Quote from: walkerp;223835(like where is Reign?)

HM, Best electronic.

Congrats Bill and Brett! You guys both deserved it! :D

-clash

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;223836HM, Best electronic.

That's weird.  It's not really an electronic book.  It was sold as print on demand.  That's kind of a tricky category, I guess.

Here is my grumpy take on the nominees:

http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/665513066/item.html (http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/665513066/item.html)

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmice;223839Congrats Bill and Brett! You guys both deserved it! :D

-clash

Yes, congrats Brett. Two-Fisted Tales is great game an alos well deserved.

RPGPundit, have you even touched Aces & Eights, let alone read it, because you are really coming off as totally ill-informed.  In terms of physical production values, it really does deserve a nomination.  You can argue about whether it should receive best rules or best product, but it was probably the best produced book this year and in many years.  I seriously suspect you haven't even seen it.

I do agree with you about the word "regalia".  That makes no sense.

Quote from: walkerp;223842That's weird.  It's not really an electronic book.  It was sold as print on demand.  That's kind of a tricky category, I guess.

World on Fire is also print... real print, not PoD.

I think the header is misleading, if the same rules prevail that did when I was on the ENnies board. You can qualify for both; it's how it's submitted.

Of course times have changed. PoD is much more prevalent now than then, and I wonder if the categories need to evolve, too.

Quote from: walkerp;223851RPGPundit, have you even touched Aces & Eights, let alone read it, because you are really coming off as totally ill-informed.  In terms of physical production values, it really does deserve a nomination.  You can argue about whether it should receive best rules or best product, but it was probably the best produced book this year and in many years.  I seriously suspect you haven't even seen it.

I do agree with you about the word "regalia".  That makes no sense.

While I don't own a copy, I've paged through it several times at the FLGS trying to decide if I should buy it. I love westerns. The book looks like it should be a museum or collectors piece. It definitly would get my vote.

While I really liked changeling, I wasn't all that impressed with the art. Solomon Kane has great art but not as good as A&8 and I've seen nothing of the other two.

I hope that you (and others) will use the next ten days before the polls open to check out some of the other products with which you are unfamiliar!  I pushed the publishers to make sure there were decent product pages and hopefully some samples so that voters can better familiarize themselves with the products.

And to anyone who doesn't like the selections, then I suggest you hold the judges accountable when it comes to vote for the new panel August 4-10th.

Quote from: Mcrow;223856While I really liked changeling, I wasn't all that impressed with the art. Solomon Kane has great art but not as good as A&8 and I've seen nothing of the other two.

Quote from: RPGPundit;223846Here is my grumpy take on the nominees:

http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/665513066/item.html (http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/665513066/item.html)

Quote from: Pundit's BlogThere's Grimm, again. But at least, finally, in this section I've found a few nominees worthy of praise. In a fair world, Two-Fisted Tales ought to be the one sweeping many of the awards. Of course, that's not going to happen because at least a third of the ENnies judges are idiots, and another third are intentional plants of the Swine who despise games that are actually GOOD.

So, do you have a misunderstanding about the way the ENnies works? The judges' role is done. If it's nominated, it's because the judges got it there. If it doesn't win, it's because the fans voted that way. (Which gives products with a bigger market a big leg up. Some of us out there think the nomination is the REAL mark of quality.)

Quote from: Mcrow;223827Congrats Bill! Roma True 20 is truely deserving of the nomination.

Thanks Mike! I especially am honored for the category it was nominated in.

Quote from: Denise;223834To jump in here, I really don't think that was every a concern.  For example, two PDFs from Open Design LLC that were sold on the "patron" method were nominated.  It never even entered the discussion that considering there can't be that many copies of the product floating around out there, it would be difficult to compete with larger distributions.  From what I saw in the judges' discussion forums, whether a product stood a chance of winning never entered the consideration.  They were more concerned about awarding quality where deserved.

My point was simply, it would be a logical weight in the decision process and not to imply anything unfair or untoward. I stated as much in my original post.

Quote from: flyingmice;223839Congrats Bill and Brett! You guys both deserved it! :D

-clash

Thanks Clash.

Quote from: RPGPundit;223846Here is my grumpy take on the nominees:

http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/665513066/item.html (http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/665513066/item.html)

RPGPundit

Thanks Pundit. I especially appreciated your "half-baked games in favour of real quality" comment on your blog.

Bill

Regarding Aces & Eights, or Grimm, note that I have nothing against either game. I just noticed that both were nominated (or got HM) for a ridiculous number of awards compared to any of the other products. My guess is that this is due to one or two of the judges deciding that this would be the game they would push, for whatever motive, in absolutely everything.  Its an example of how easily the nomination process can end up being subverted.  Neither of those games are particularly bad games, but certainly neither is worthy of such praise that they should get to sweep an RPG awards nomination process. I very much doubt either will be particularly remembered in a few years.

And I have not seen Aces & Eights in person, no, only reviews and images.  If Kenzer wants to send me a review copy, who knows? I might revise my way of thinking.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;223887So, do you have a misunderstanding about the way the ENnies works? The judges' role is done. If it's nominated, it's because the judges got it there. If it doesn't win, it's because the fans voted that way. (Which gives products with a bigger market a big leg up. Some of us out there think the nomination is the REAL mark of quality.)

Um, that's exactly what I am complaining about, dude. The Judges have made it certain that a game like 2FT cannot sweep the awards, because they simply didn't nominate it for most of the awards.
What's more, a supposed "industry-wide" award has made it impossible for several games ("Forward... to Adventure!", for one example) to even win an award, because they are NOT in fact an industry-wide award, they are a "Submit your product to us and win an award" award.

In other words, someone could have written the BEST RPG OF ALL TIME, which sells 12 billion copies in a year, and starts a new religious movement; but if its not submitted to the ENnies judges, there's no way its going to win "Best RPG" award; which will instead go to "Mediocre Consensus RPG #4381".

Likewise, someone who believes that 2FT is both the "Best Game" and "Product of the Year" is shit out of luck, because the JUDGES (many of whom are self-evidently idiots or crooks) have decided to only nominate 2FT for writing, while a game like Grimm gets buckshotted all over the place like a clumsy pervert's ejaculation; and a bunch of Barely Heard Of games (like Og, seriously?!) backed up by a gang of pretentious cunts gets nominated for best RPG; the Judges' super-dubious "Wisdom" essentially forcing those who vote in the ENNies to have to chose from a series of bad options that are in no way representative of either quality, or the popular will.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWelt;223890Thanks Mike! I especially am honored for the category it was nominated in.

 

Well, as I've told you before you have some of the best RPG settings of any publisher. Not that your system is bad (you know I love it) but it doesn't seem to get the same reception as the setting do.  

In any case, just getting a nomination is bid deal considering all of the quality settings that have come out during this time frame.

Quote from: HinterWelt;223890Thanks Pundit. I especially appreciated your "half-baked games in favour of real quality" comment on your blog.

Bill

I wasn't specifically speaking to your games, Bill.  I was thinking more along the lines of Og, Witchhunter, Monsters & Other Childish Things, ie. games I haven't or have barely even heard of. Games that are obviously getting nominated not because they're good or have made an impact in the year, but because one or more of the judges is championing them for personal or ideological reasons.

Though, to be brutally honest, I don't see how a highly dubiously implausible alt-history of Rome could possibly merit "Best Setting"; I don't begrudge you any other nomination, but that one seems particularly questionable.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;223895Um, that's exactly what I am complaining about, dude.

Okay.

QuoteThe Judges have made it certain that a game like 2FT cannot sweep the awards, because they simply didn't nominate it for most of the awards.
What's more, a supposed "industry-wide" award has made it impossible for several games ("Forward... to Adventure!", for one example) to even win an award, because they are NOT in fact an industry-wide award, they are a "Submit your product to us and win an award" award.

So, wait. They are supposed to fairly review products not submitted to them? Or find their own funding to canvass the industry?

Monsters & Other Childish Things?

Whatsat?

*googling*

Hmm.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;223901So, wait. They are supposed to fairly review products not submitted to them? Or find their own funding to canvass the industry?

Don't try to reason with him; it'll only make things worse. I've never seen someone make so many judgments without evidence: the corruption of the judges, the quality of books he's literally never seen. What a complete, ailing douche bag.

Quote from: Engine;223904Don't try to reason with him; it'll only make things worse. I've never seen someone make so many judgments without evidence: the corruption of the judges, the quality of books he's literally never seen. What a complete, ailing douche bag.

I'm not generally a Pundy basher but this take on the ennies is great work of douchebaggery.

Quote from: Engine;223904Don't try to reason with him; it'll only make things worse. I've never seen someone make so many judgments without evidence: the corruption of the judges, the quality of books he's literally never seen. What a complete, ailing douche bag.

Oh, I know. I've already accepted that nothing I say is going to get Pundit to sit down and say "harumph! You're right". These comments are more directed to anyone in the home audience who might be casually enough related to the subject matter that they would take it seriously.

And to be fair, I think the ENnies are far from perfect, but I say that with the voice of someone who knows what challenges they really face. But enough about that.

Quote from: One Horse Town;223903Monsters & Other Childish Things?

Whatsat?

*googling*

Hmm.

M&OCT is by Bailywolf, who is brilliant, and drops awesome ideas behind him like Hansel & Gretel drop bread crumbs. I haven't read it yet - my distaste for ORE prevents me - but I can't imagine it isn't superb.

-clash

RPGPundit, have you not been following Zachary the First's posts about the process?  It sounds like there may well be some agendas going on, but nowhere near the intensity you are imagining.  Furthermore, it sounds like the process that goes on between the judges is open enough that it's not so easy for a single individual to push their agenda, though I guess a cabal could have more power.  

You also seem to be suggesting that because something is popular, it is good, which is bullshit.

And you have no right to be bitter just because you were too friggin' cheap to send in a copy of your game.  Free copies of shit is the way it is done in every industry.  If you want to be a "real" publisher, you're going to have to suck up the expenses that go with it.  At least, I am starting to believe that you may actually have Canadian roots, anyways, you cheap bastard!:p

Quote from: RPGPundit;223899Though, to be brutally honest, I don't see how a highly dubiously implausible alt-history of Rome could possibly merit "Best Setting"; I don't begrudge you any other nomination, but that one seems particularly questionable.

RPGPundit

From what Zachary has mentioned of his evaluation after running and reading the material, he, and I assume at least some of the other judges, understand what I was going for. However, in the spirit of preserving the thread, let us suffice to say you believe Roma concept to be tripe with the caveat you have not read it.

Bill

Pundit, I submitted nothing to the Ennies this year, mainly for the perhaps absurd reason of sympathy for the judges, who I think are horribly overworked. I made this clear way up front, right after the last ennies were awarded at GenCon initially, and many times thereafter. I assumed you wouldn't care about FtA! not being submitted as you have derided the Ennies and any other award before as being useless. If you had wanted me to submit FtA!, you would only have had to ask, and I would have happily done so. Perhaps it would have been nominated in as many categories as Aces & Eights or Grimm if I had - it certainly is good enough IMO. That would depend on the tastes of the judges after that.

-clash

Here RPGPundit, go chase after this bone (http://www.dianajonesaward.org/08nominees.html), it should distract you for a while so that we can actually have a decent conversation.

Quote from: walkerp;223910And you have no right to be bitter just because you were too friggin' cheap to send in a copy of your game.  Free copies of shit is the way it is done in every industry.  If you want to be a "real" publisher, you're going to have to suck up the expenses that go with it.  At least, I am starting to believe that you may actually have Canadian roots, anyways, you cheap bastard!:p

Hi Walker:

I was the one who needed to submit FtA! for consideration. I am the publisher, not Pundit. If you are going to hang the cheap label on anyone, it should be me and not Pundit. I promise to wear it gracefully.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;223915Hi Walker:

I was the one who needed to submit FtA! for consideration. I am the publisher, not Pundit. If you are going to hang the cheap label on anyone, it should be me and not Pundit. I promise to wear it gracefully.

-clash

When SH sees the light of day, i'll pay for it! :D

Quote from: flyingmice;223915Hi Walker:

I was the one who needed to submit FtA! for consideration. I am the publisher, not Pundit. If you are going to hang the cheap label on anyone, it should be me and not Pundit. I promise to wear it gracefully.

Thanks for the clarification, Clash.  I stand corrected.  I'm just trying to find some reasonable psychological explanation why he is so up in arms about what may be a flawed but basically honest effort on the part of the organizers of the ENnies.

Quote from: RPGPundit;223899Though, to be brutally honest, I don't see how a highly dubiously implausible alt-history of Rome could possibly merit "Best Setting"; I don't begrudge you any other nomination, but that one seems particularly questionable.

RPGPundit

OMFG! A role-playing game being implausible. No fucking way! It  cannot be.

Besides the fact that you have not so much as read the book and even without reading you still can't grasp the purpose of the game.

Quote from: HinterWelt;223911From what Zachary has mentioned of his evaluation after running and reading the material, he, and I assume at least some of the other judges, understand what I was going for. However, in the spirit of preserving the thread, let us suffice to say you believe Roma concept to be tripe with the caveat you have not read it.

Bill

Let me say I own Roma in print and love it, and you richly deserve any notice the nomination brings. I don't have the True 20 version, but I assume the setting is basically the same...

-clash

Quote from: One Horse Town;223919When SH sees the light of day, i'll pay for it! :D

You will NOT! All you need to do is tell me you'd like it submitted and I will. My reasons for not submitting anything this year revolve around the workload of the judges, not tiny amounts of money.

-clash

Quote from: walkerp;223921Thanks for the clarification, Clash.  I stand corrected.  I'm just trying to find some reasonable psychological explanation why he is so up in arms about what may be a flawed but basically honest effort on the part of the organizers of the ENnies.

Whatever reason he has, that is not one. :D

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;223926Let me say I own Roma in print and love it, and you richly deserve any notice the nomination brings. I don't have the True 20 version, but I assume the setting is basically the same...

-clash

Correct. The True20 version has the addition of a few tidbits requested, specifically a section covering Britannia.

Bill

Anyways, there's lots I haven't read or doesn't light my fire. But there's lots of kick ass awesome on this list.

Pathfinder, Empire of Ghouls, City of Brass

In a time when bored would be 4e fanbois are busy spitting on 3e, some faithful few are still knocking them out of the park. Good call here.

World on Fire

C'mon, you knew I was going to say that. I honestly didn't expect it. It used to be only myself and Jeff slugging for Spycraft among the judges; I assumed after we were out, it was hopeless. Good to see there are still people who can see the charm. Pleasantly surprised.

Spirit of the Season

A fun little book. A little "light" than the sort of book that normally carries these things, but I'll say it intrigued me.

Quote from: flyingmice;223912Pundit, I submitted nothing to the Ennies this year, mainly for the perhaps absurd reason of sympathy for the judges, who I think are horribly overworked. I made this clear way up front, right after the last ennies were awarded at GenCon initially, and many times thereafter. I assumed you wouldn't care about FtA! not being submitted as you have derided the Ennies and any other award before as being useless. If you had wanted me to submit FtA!, you would only have had to ask, and I would have happily done so. Perhaps it would have been nominated in as many categories as Aces & Eights or Grimm if I had - it certainly is good enough IMO. That would depend on the tastes of the judges after that.

-clash

No, I had no interest in submitting FtA!

Its my position, and I know certain others (including certain nominees) concur, that these sorts of awards and the interest in them is just an utter sham.

And to answer another question: yes; if its supposedly an industry-wide award, then the products proposed for nomination should have no limitation of "entries only".

But frankly, no matter what, these awards are always a sham: they end up never either prizing the best in quality or the popular choice. Instead you get a bunch of mediocre consensus games, and a bunch of games that no one except certain overeager judges have ever even heard of.

If at least three of the "Best RPG" entries are games that a guy who runs one of the biggest RPG fora, writes in one of the most popular RPG-blogs and is generally a voracious student of RPGs has never even or barely even heard of, then something is seriously wrong with the awards process.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmice;223927You will NOT! All you need to do is tell me you'd like it submitted and I will. My reasons for not submitting anything this year revolve around the workload of the judges, not tiny amounts of money.

-clash

It was a joke, Clash! Fear not, you can pay for everything! :D

Two observations:

1) Pundit is pretty far removed from current RPG-goings these days.

2) 2007 was an utterly unspectacular and mediocre year. The golden Age hsa ended.

Quote from: RPGPundit;223933If at least three of the "Best RPG" entries are games that a guy who runs one of the biggest RPG fora, writes in one of the most popular RPG-blogs and is generally a voracious student of RPGs has never even or barely even heard of, then something is seriously wrong with the awards process.

RPGPundit

Perhaps you are not as much of an expert on RPGs as you big head would suggest?

Quote from: Mcrow;223924OMFG! A role-playing game being implausible. No fucking way! It  cannot be.

Besides the fact that you have not so much as read the book and even without reading you still can't grasp the purpose of the game.

Sorry, but if you're going to make a game about Rome, and market it (as Bill at least initially did) on the basis of being somehow well-researched, then you'd better make sure your alt-history is credible.

Romans getting all hip on Druidism and celtic magic is not. Its about as believable as the French wholeheartedly adopting English cooking, or the Klan becoming hardcore Obama supporters.

But then, Bill and I have had this argument ages ago already, back when the original Roma Imperious came out. Shit, even the title isn't right.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Settembrini;223937Two observations:

1) Pundit is pretty far removed from current RPG-goings these days.

2) 2007 was an utterly unspectacular and mediocre year. The golden Age hsa ended.

I agree with you on point #2 (aside from the utterly brilliant 2FT; and FtA!, of course!).  But as for point number one? I'm sorry, but I really don't think that "Og" has been a runaway mindblowing success that all the kids are playing these days.  Or Witchhunter, for that matter.

I don't think these nominations show me to be out of touch; they show just how far out of touch the ENnies are from what people are into in regular roleplaying.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;223933And to answer another question: yes; if its supposedly an industry-wide award, then the products proposed for nomination should have no limitation of "entries only".

Your disconnect with reality is noted. I'll file it alongside communist utopias, the Honor System, and John Lennon songs.

Quote from: Mcrow;223938Perhaps you are not as much of an expert on RPGs as you big head would suggest?

Nope, sorry, I'm an expert, and half of the "best RPG" awards are unbelievably obscure games that have made no impact on the hobby or the industry.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;223942I agree with you on point #2 (aside from the utterly brilliant 2FT; and FtA!, of course!).  But as for point number one? I'm sorry, but I really don't think that "Og" has been a runaway mindblowing success that all the kids are playing these days.  Or Witchhunter, for that matter.

I'm really not jazzed about either game myself. But some folks are. Two "cool kids" in my gaming circles are running a game of either of those games.

I didn't join in either one, but still...

Quote from: RPGPundit;223939Sorry, but if you're going to make a game about Rome, and market it (as Bill at least initially did) on the basis of being somehow well-researched, then you'd better make sure your alt-history is credible.

Romans getting all hip on Druidism and celtic magic is not. Its about as believable as the French wholeheartedly adopting English cooking, or the Klan becoming hardcore Obama supporters.

RPGPundit

Sorry, but you are flatout wrong. I was one of the playtesters for that game and was apart of Bills gaming group while this game was being developed and there was never mention of the game being sold as a historical game. Never has he claimed that it was meant to be 100% historically accurate in anyway.

He full admits that it is more of a fantasy game based in fantasy Rome. This pretty well puts the flag up saying "this is not a serious historical game". So your whole arguement is total bullshit.

There seems to be a handful of people out there like you that believe that anything that references some historical era must be historically accurate even if the intent was not to make a historical game. The other 99.9% of the world doesn't seem to have this issue.

Quote from: RPGPundit;223945Nope, sorry, I'm an expert, and half of the "best RPG" awards are unbelievably obscure games that have made no impact on the hobby or the industry.

RPGPundit

Sorry man, but I've read too many of your opinions to believe that you are any sort of expert.

Obviously because a game is obscure and has not sold a ton of copies it cannot be the best RPG of the year? That right there is an dumb statement.

I think that Pundit is getting it completely wrong this time, or something close to it.

Just my two cents, though I'll try to expand tonight, when I'm back from work.

Quote from: walkerp;223851RPGPundit, have you even touched Aces & Eights, let alone read it, because you are really coming off as totally ill-informed.  In terms of physical production values, it really does deserve a nomination.  You can argue about whether it should receive best rules or best product, but it was probably the best produced book this year and in many years.  I seriously suspect you haven't even seen it.

I just got my copy of A&8 yesterday and I think it's amazing- both for content and production (outside of some screwed up table errors).  I don't know if I'll ever run a western game, but so far this is a really interesting read.

Quote from: RPGPundit;223939Romans getting all hip on Druidism and celtic magic is not. Its about as believable as the French wholeheartedly adopting English cooking, or the Klan becoming hardcore Obama supporters.

In the spirit of this thread I will keep my posts to factual corrections of someone who has not read the book.

No, that is not the case. The Romans actually hunt the Druids to near extinction and they hide out in the most remote sections of the Empire. Specific concentrations in parts of Hibernia and Britannia. The Romans desire the secret of Druidic magic but to say they wish it to embrace Druidism is incorrect.  

Quote from: RPGPundit;223939But then, Bill and I have had this argument ages ago already, back when the original Roma Imperious came out. Shit, even the title isn't right.

RPGPundit

Sigh. It would be incorrect if it was Latin. It is not. It never was meant to be. It was meant to be an easy cognate.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;223968No, that is not the case. The Romans actually hunt the Druids to near extinction and they hide out in the most remote sections of the Empire. Specific concentrations in parts of Hibernia and Britannia. The Romans desire the secret of Druidic magic but to say they wish it to embrace Druidism is incorrect.  

Ooh, that sounds kind of cool.  Can you play those hunted druids?  How powerful is their magic?

Quote from: RPGPundit;223945I'm an expert...

Actually, it's pronounced, "hwahy-nee doosh." Really, you can't condemn other games for being unoriginal or implausible and then champion Forward to Adventure! and Two Fisted Tales, which, whatever their other attributes might be, are neither of them original or plausible. And complaining about the obscurity of games when protesting their nomination for quality just makes you look out-of-touch and petty. Mostly petty.

And with that, I'm on vacation for a couple weeks. Sniff you jerks later!

Quote from: walkerp;223970Ooh, that sounds kind of cool.  Can you play those hunted druids?  How powerful is their magic?

Edit 2: Sorry Walker. Yes, you can play the hunted but generally I try to either have the player run the character undercover or in a group (Skandians, Alkasatians, or Jade Empire) outside the Empire. It causes problems for the game if you play the hunted Druid in a group that is supposed to be hunting you. I did have a great adventure where by the end of it the Centurion in charge of the Granarium of Charax let a Druid of the Veneti go because of the bravery and friendship that had developed over the adventure. So, it is workable.

There magic is arguably more powerful than the Romans. This is one of the reasons that in current day of the setting, the Druids have an uneasy truce with the Romans. I am currently writing the Britannia supplement where the Hibernian Drudis are at war witht he Romans and infiltrating the "sell-out" druids in Britannia. To paint the Druids with one brush is very inaccurate. Some are callaborators of the highest order while others are either at open war or stirring the Celts against the Romans.

Roman Magic is more like engineering and science and is viewed as such. Systematically, it is a spell point driven list. It is divided into realms and studied much the same way we would study Mechanical Engineering at one college and Computer Science at another. The Druids have a rather involved process of student and master that spans over about 20 years. Systematically, they use our Free Form system that we have ported to True20. It allows you, based on your tribe, to have three areas of power. So, a coastal tribe would have, say, Water, Travel and Food. This means you would be able to cast an Ice Storm or create water, teleport or make it less difficult by teleporting along waterways, or create food or make rocks edible. I prefer the druid from a magic point of view but really like where I went with the institution of Roman magic. They have Collegae that are based on many different angles and purposes. Simply from Realms that they practice to more deep rooted political party affiliations. Lots of neat stuff.

All that said, I want to point out as Mike said, it is a Fantasy game rooted in history. It is not a historical game.

Bill

Edit for Disclosure: The Iridium Roma Imperious did get an Honorable Mention when it was released. I am not sure which category but probably setting or such. I found out about this only last year when Zach told me about it. :o

Hey guys, just wanted to let you know I just got home, and will be back on to answer questions as I can and respond once the girls are in bed.


Congrats to the noms!

Quote from: Engine;223972Actually, it's pronounced, "hwahy-nee doosh." Really, you can't condemn other games for being unoriginal or implausible and then champion Forward to Adventure! and Two Fisted Tales, which, whatever their other attributes might be, are neither of them original or plausible. And complaining about the obscurity of games when protesting their nomination for quality just makes you look out-of-touch and petty. Mostly petty.

Any game that's not at least a moderate commercial success, or that the average (RPG forum) gamer has to go "what? What the fuck is that?" when they see it listed, has no business being the category of MOTHERFUCKING RPG OF THE YEAR.

RPGPundit

Hey guys,

First, I wanna say, if you have a product that you're bummed isn't list, keep in mind I and the other judges likely had favorite products that didn't make it, too.  But if you see unfamiliar products on the list, I hope you take the time to check out one or two of them.  I can say there were products I had very little familiarity with that blew me away.  There were some big-name ones that left me cold.

My approach as a judge is that I genuinely and truly do not care if you have 10,000 raving fanboys or if only 12 people have played your game.  What matters is quality, if it inspires me to want to run/play, if it does what it sets out to do, and if it brings the awesome.  Labels, sales--throw it out the window.  Popularity, name recognition don't mean anything to me as a judge.  When I sit down to read or playtest, its your product and me (and my gaming group, as needed).

Counting podcasts and the like, we had 50 companies or organizations represented this year.  I think that's cool that there are so many people out there that work their ass off to bring a little enjoyment to others in our hobby.

Here's a rough spreadsheet, which of course is displaying nowhere near correctly, listing nominees by Nominations, Honorable Mention, and Totals (the numbers may not be 100% accurate, but should be close):

Company   Nominations   Honorable Mentions   Total w/HM
Paizo   10   2   12
Green Ronin   9   1   10
Wizards of the Coast   9   1   10
White Wolf   8   2   10
Kenzer   4   0   4
Paradigm Concepts   4   0   4
Fantasy Flight   2   3   5
Pelgrane Press   3   1   4
Goodman Games   3   0   3
Pinnacle   3   0   3
Arc Dream   3   0   3
King of the Castle   2   1   3
0one Games   2   0   2
MindStorm Labs   2   0   2
Precis Intermedia   2   0   2
Mongoose Publishing   2   1   2
Exile Game Studio   2   0   2
Necromancer Games   2   0   2
Open Design   2   0   2
Dreampod 9   2   0   2
Hinterwelt Enterprises   1   2   3
SammichCon Creations   1   0   1
Flames Rising   1   0   1
Dungeonmastering.com   1   0   1
Animalball   1   0   1
Rogue Games   1   0   1
WhiteSilver Publishing   1   0   1
Dark Matter Studios   1   0   1
Evil Hat/Atomic Sock Monkey   1   0   1
Atlas Games   1   0   1
Skirmisher Publishing   1   0   1
BTRC   1   0   1
Jonny Nexus   1   0   1
Catalyst   1   0   1
Expeditious Retreat Press   1   0   1
Malhavoc   1   0   1
Crafty Games   1   0   1
Firefly Games   1   0   1
Lone Wolf Development   1   0   1
Conflict Chips   1   0   1
Dragonfire Laser Crafts   1   0   1
Fat Dragon   1   0   1
Knowledge--Current Events   0   1   1
Skeleton Key Games   0   1   1
Eden Studios   0   1   1
Margaret Weis Productions   0   1   1
Dias Ex Machina Games   0   1   1
Palladium Books   0   1   1
Tabletop Adventures   0   1   1
Greg Stolze/Schroedinger's Cat   0   1   1

Quote from: RPGPundit;224006Any game that's not at least a moderate commercial success, or that the average (RPG forum) gamer has to go "what? What the fuck is that?" when they see it listed, has no business being the category of MOTHERFUCKING RPG OF THE YEAR.

RPGPundit

Pundy, just becaue you've never heard of these games doesn't mean that a good number of the people on this and other sites have not.

What do you call a "moderate commercial success"? How the hell would you have any idea if it was or wasn't a commercial success? Do you know how many copies they've sold? Do you even know what is considerd a good amount of sales for an rpg not published by WotC?

Probably not.

Aces & Eights sold out.

Quote from: RPGPundit;224006Any game that's not at least a moderate commercial success, or that the average (RPG forum) gamer has to go "what? What the fuck is that?" when they see it listed, has no business being the category of MOTHERFUCKING RPG OF THE YEAR.

[Terminator voice]Your crack pipe.  Give it to me.[/Terminator voice]

Quote from: walkerp;224057Aces & Eights sold out.

Really, just about everyone I've know who's actually picked up a copy has loved it.  It was a pretty easy decision for me.  It really is that good, and IMO deserving of all its nods.

People can disagree, but that's half the reason folks have awards ceremonies--drama, disagreement, and something to talk about. :)

So is there anything major that really didn't get a nod?  Anybody feel slighted that may actually have an argument?

Also, I thought Pathfinder was released this year.

Personally, I think it's an extremely tough thing to judge so I'm just happy that a wide range of companies and gaming styles are represented.  That's all I was really worried about.  I'm sure the process could be improved, but it really does seem like a lot of stuff was reviewed and given a fair shake and a pretty interesting cross selection of cool products are hanging out in the nominees suite right now.  There isn't a product in there, of the ones I'm familiar with that isn't pretty frickin' impressive.

So really, kudos to you all.

I can tell you that Two-Fisted Tales being nominated made Matt Stevens very happy. I'm glad that his labor of love was finally honored beyond these shores. It's also nice to have nominations in the first year I actually bothered to submit anything.

It's awesome to see some non-clique/non-darling small press publishers get nominated products, like Hinterwelt, BTRC, and Dark Matter Studios.

Congratulations to everyone who was nominated.

I have no doubts that Aces & Eights sold out; you see, Aces & Eights I've HEARD OF, and heard a lot of good things about, too.  So it certainly merits being on that list.

But:
Monsters and Other Childish Things, Arc Dream
Og: Unearthed Edition, Firefly Games
Witchhunter: The Invisible World, Paradigm Concepts

Please. You guys picked one of only two games (and the other being a WoTC joint) that actually merited being on the list of the Best Game nominees.

RPGPundit

Quote from: brettmb;224088I can tell you that Two-Fisted Tales being nominated made Matt Stevens very happy. I'm glad that his labor of love was finally honored beyond these shores. It's also nice to have nominations in the first year I actually bothered to submit anything.

It's awesome to see some non-clique/non-darling small press publishers get nominated products, like Hinterwelt, BTRC, and Dark Matter Studios.

Congratulations to everyone who was nominated.

Hmm... (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=10473&page=4)

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;224092I have no doubts that Aces & Eights sold out; you see, Aces & Eights I've HEARD OF, and heard a lot of good things about, too.  So it certainly merits being on that list.

But:
Monsters and Other Childish Things, Arc Dream
Og: Unearthed Edition, Firefly Games
Witchhunter: The Invisible World, Paradigm Concepts

Please. You guys picked one of only two games (and the other being a WoTC joint) that actually merited being on the list of the Best Game nominees.

RPGPundit

Please explain to us why a game has to be considered "commercial success" in order to be the best game of the year?

By your logic the only two companies that make games that would seem to qualify are WotC & WW.

It's not possible for a really well designed, fun , well written game that didn't have huge sales to be the best game of the year? If that is your arguement then I find it to be total BS.

It would be like saying "RPG.net is the superior RPG forum over The RPG Site because they have more members".

Quote from: brettmb;224088It's awesome to see some non-clique/non-darling small press publishers get nominated products, like Hinterwelt, BTRC, and Dark Matter Studios.

We are thrilled to have the Epic RPG Game Manual (http://epicrpg.com/products.htm) nominated in the Best Rules category.

Congratulations to all the nominees, especially to all of the small press comrades like Precis and Hinterwelt!

Quote from: Reimdall;224148We are thrilled to have the Epic RPG Game Manual (http://epicrpg.com/products.htm) nominated in the Best Rules category.

Congratulations to all the nominees, especially to all of the small press comrades like Precis and Hinterwelt!

I new when you sent me the original books and I read them that it was a good game. I also thought it would fair better as a single book. Nice job, BTW. :D

Quote from: Mcrow;224134Please explain to us why a game has to be considered "commercial success" in order to be the best game of the year?

By your logic the only two companies that make games that would seem to qualify are WotC & WW.

It's not possible for a really well designed, fun , well written game that didn't have huge sales to be the best game of the year? If that is your arguement then I find it to be total BS.

It would be like saying "RPG.net is the superior RPG forum over The RPG Site because they have more members".

No, its a question of having been relatively successful, like, say ENOUGH THAT THE TYPICAL GAMER STANDS A CHANCE OF HAVING HEARD OF IT.

Please, no matter how you fuckers argue this, how can a game win "best game of the year" when practically no one has played it? When there hasn't even been so much as threads on theRPGsite or RPG.net about it? When for all intents and purposes, there's maybe a few dozen people on the entire planet who've ever fucking heard of it?!
How can that be BEST GAME OF THE YEAR?

It makes a mockery of the entire concept.

What we're talking about here isn't the oscars shunning a vastly popular movie in favour of a moderately popular movie.  What we're talking about here is the Oscars filling half of their nominees for "best picture" with art films that didn't even circulate in commercial theatres, that no one except the judges, a few college critics, and the movie creator and his friends have even watched.

Its absurd.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Reimdall;224148We are thrilled to have the Epic RPG Game Manual (http://epicrpg.com/products.htm) nominated in the Best Rules category.

Ah, ok; I was wondering if that was the Epic RPG; I mean, I supposed it was, but the nominees list said "Epic RPG Man", and confusion ensued. Hope you got on them to correct that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;224178No, its a question of having been relatively successful, like, say ENOUGH THAT THE TYPICAL GAMER STANDS A CHANCE OF HAVING HEARD OF IT.

Please, no matter how you fuckers argue this, how can a game win "best game of the year" when practically no one has played it? When there hasn't even been so much as threads on theRPGsite or RPG.net about it? When for all intents and purposes, there's maybe a few dozen people on the entire planet who've ever fucking heard of it?!
How can that be BEST GAME OF THE YEAR?

It makes a mockery of the entire concept.

What we're talking about here isn't the oscars shunning a vastly popular movie in favour of a moderately popular movie.  What we're talking about here is the Oscars filling half of their nominees for "best picture" with art films that didn't even circulate in commercial theatres, that no one except the judges, a few college critics, and the movie creator and his friends have even watched.

Its absurd.

RPGPundit

I knew I should have quite trying to get some rational thought out of you. Once you get frothing there's absolutely no amount of proof, reasoning, or facts can possibely change your mind.

Pundit could never be wrong, could he?

Mcrow: who the fuck has heard of Og? Who the fuck has praised it?
Or "Monsters & other childish things"?

Please, point me to a thread singing its praises here... or even on RPG.net? What kind of coverage has it had?
What kind of sales?
Who is promoting it?

If we did an honest poll, how many gamers would know what the fuck it was?

You're the one who's refusing to actually debate on fact. You have failed utterly to explain exactly how a game so obscure as that one could possibly merit the "BEST RPG of the year" award?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;224248Mcrow: who the fuck has heard of Og? Who the fuck has praised it?
RPGPundit

Well we're having a gameday here (which I can't fucking participate in thanks to work) and someone is going to run Og.  It was also mentioned by someone else as a game they might want to run at the local con.  Yeah, I think he's actually going to run it in french, now that I remember.  Which would be pretty cool because it has a limited set of vocabulary words you can use.  So I haven't played it or even thumbed through and it definitely is on the obscure side, but it's getting noticed and talked about.  But I think the main point is that it is probably a good game.

So what would you have put in there, RPGPundit?  What are your top 5 games or products of the year?

That's a good question, I'd have to double-check as to which products would be eligible as having been released in this period.  I don't think it'd be wrong for Aces & Eights or Star Wars Saga to be on here (in fact, I think it would be pretty obligatory for that last one to be there). I would also certainly have put Two Fisted Tales there.

Does anyone have a list of RPG products released over the last year?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;224248You're the one who's refusing to actually debate on fact. You have failed utterly to explain exactly how a game so obscure as that one could possibly merit the "BEST RPG of the year" award?

RPGPundit

See, no, he has been very clear. To Mike, Quality != Sales Volume. You, on the other hand, obviously disagree and seem to believe Quality == Sales Volume or possibly Quality == Popularity (in the sense of general online presence). Actually, you seem to be saying more than online presence, it is RPGPundit's awareness of the product. To me, this is not quality but popularity. Sure, the two can overlap. That said, if you follow your line of reasoning, then TFT and FTA are pure crap. I do not think you believe this but then you must admit that sales are not an indicator of quality. It is an indicator of marketing, advertising, distribution, branding and fan base.

So, one method of handling the problem (and it is a complex problem) of an award process is "Panel of experts sift through, nominate what they believe is quality for review by the public. Are they going to miss a few? Sure. Are they not going to nominate the ones you would? Until there is the Pundit Awards, my guess is yes.

Now, I am not familiar with this incarnation of Og or anything about Witch hunter, so I will not comment on their worthiness. I will say, seeing something I am not familiar with is intriguing.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPundit;224259That's a good question, I'd have to double-check as to which products would be eligible as having been released in this period.  I don't think it'd be wrong for Aces & Eights or Star Wars Saga to be on here (in fact, I think it would be pretty obligatory for that last one to be there). I would also certainly have put Two Fisted Tales there.

RPGPundit

TFT is pretty obscure.

Bill

Dude! I don't know shit, really, and I've HEARD of all the games on the list. Some of them I want to play if'n I get a chance.

Quote from: RPGPundit;224248Mcrow: who the fuck has heard of Og? Who the fuck has praised it?
Or "Monsters & other childish things"?

Please, point me to a thread singing its praises here... or even on RPG.net? What kind of coverage has it had?
What kind of sales?
Who is promoting it?

If we did an honest poll, how many gamers would know what the fuck it was?

You're the one who's refusing to actually debate on fact. You have failed utterly to explain exactly how a game so obscure as that one could possibly merit the "BEST RPG of the year" award?

RPGPundit

Best RPG of the year? Ok, as I've already said they could be the best written, most fun, and have the best rules and still not be one of the best selling games. That's the point. Why do you always assume that sales=better? Sales in reality only mean: good quality (not always the best), great marketing (lots of money) and having a widely known name ( D&D).

D&D could be the biggest steaming pile of garbage and still outsell 99.9% of the RPGs that are better quality.

So, it's sales + popularity? Great, but you can't judge what is and isn't popular by just chatting on the internet Pundy. Go to the local gaming store and talk to people, talk to players, talk to the works, talk to the owner/manager. Take that and do it at multiple stores and you'll have a better idea of what is popular.

I go to about 3-4 differnent gaming stores here during the course of a month and chat up the owners and some of the other gamers I know and do some gaming. In that small sampling I've heard most of the games/products in the Ennies mentioned. Some talked about playing them, some just talked about them in general.

Og was one that I've heard mentioned before, though I've not read it or paged through it.

Plus Firefly Games (Og)is the Publisher of Fairy's Tale, which is/was very popular online.

Arc Dream (Monsters and other Childish things)publishes Godlike which has a solid following.

By default these publishers are well known enough in the RPG business that their games are never really "obscure", IMO.

the only ones I really see on of the Ennies that count as "obscure" are the some of the PDF only games because I still think that the gamers who participate on forums are largely the consumers of those games and they are a very small minority of the gamer population.

Quote from: HinterWelt;224266See, no, he has been very clear. To Mike, Quality != Sales Volume. You, on the other hand, obviously disagree and seem to believe Quality == Sales Volume or possibly Quality == Popularity (in the sense of general online presence). Actually, you seem to be saying more than online presence, it is RPGPundit's awareness of the product. To me, this is not quality but popularity. Sure, the two can overlap. That said, if you follow your line of reasoning, then TFT and FTA are pure crap. I do not think you believe this but then you must admit that sales are not an indicator of quality. It is an indicator of marketing, advertising, distribution, branding and fan base.

"Quantity has a quality all it's own" Josef Stalin

Quantity (sold) is a measure of quality, in that people aren't idiots or sheep. They wouldn't buy such large quantities of something unless it worked for them, no matter how much marketing or branding or whatever is thrown at them. D&D is not for me anymore, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work very well for a huge number of people. If WotC pushed out crap, it wouldn't matter about the brand name or the marketing. people might buy it initially, but would soon abandon it if it didn't work for them. That they buy is, and use it, and keep on buying it is a certain indicator of quality.

Quantity is not the only marker of quality however. If you have the best game in the world, and I'm sure all of us publishers are absolutely certain we do, if it doesn't have the market presence to let people know of its existence, then that greatness will be forever undiscovered. You won't buy something you don't know even exists. Small press publishers like myself are very much aware of this, and it's difficult to manage, for several reasons:

• Publisher ignorance of marketing techniques - bigger companies can split off marketing from production, but small press is very limited in this matter by simple economics, forcing people who are very good at coming up with design and production to wear the marketing hat as well. Specialization works, but needs a portion over mere subsistence to even be attempted.


• Paucity of media coverage - there are no methods of paid advertising that aren't either economically unfeasible for small press publishers (ads in Dragon) or bread scattered on the water in hopes of a nibble (banner ads.)


• Broken/severely bent distribution systems - The three tier distribution system encourages high turnover and slim margins. This means retailers have no incentive to stock odd duck small press games, and publishers have no reserves to weather an occasional over-printing or other gamble gone wrong, and we have to gamble to play this game!
  

What we can (and are attempting to) do about it:

• Start small - pdf distribution is small potatoes and prone to illicit copying, but has no real financial risks. If a project bombs, you are only out your time and direct costs; you don't have 1000 unsold games sitting gathering dust in a warehouse somewhere. This can give you time to build up some small reserves, if you are patient and canny. POD is a bit higher outlay, but still otherwise risk free.


• Direct Sales - bypassing the distribution system can work, but you need knowledge of the retail market. You have to make direct purchase of your games worth the added aggravation for retail outlets of making separate orders in addition to their regular distro order. Most won't bother otherwise.


• Missionary Fervor - here the Forge model excels. Get a group of people hyped and let them market your product from missionary zeal. This won't work so well with more traditional games, as there is nothing inherently different about your game from other games, to give the early disciples a feeling of special belonging and a simple message to preach. The Forge brought together a group of people who were looking for a different way to play, and gave them what they wanted, along with tools to make their own visions of the concept, and encouraged cross marketing and bootstrap loading.
  
  
• Patience - This works too, but takes a very long time and a lot of work. Start small and risk only when you can afford to lose. Keep products coming to support what you already have, either with optional supplements, with cross-compatibility, or both. Exploit under-served niches. Create fan awareness for quality products and service. Establish an on-line presence and cultivate your reputation. Show, don't push. A customer who buys your product under false assumptions is a dissatisfied customer and will directly harm you. Trust is a good thing, but needs effort to maintain. This is what I have always done.

To get back on-topic from that little digression, there are a lot of quality products out there, and not all of them are popular for many reasons, but very popular products are generally quality products, otherwise they wouldn't be so popular.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;224314To get back on-topic from that little digression, there are a lot of quality products out there, and not all of them are popular for many reasons, but very popular products are generally quality products, otherwise they wouldn't be so popular.

-clash

I don't think anyone is arguing that the most popular games are of good quality or not, just that being popular does not mean that it is the best and popularity isn't the only factor in quality.

Quote from: Mcrow;224316I don't think anyone is arguing that the most popular games are of good quality or not, just that being popular does not mean that it is the best and popularity isn't the only factor in quality.

I think this point tends to get lost in debate where one side is maintaining that popularity is a function of marketing and the other is maintaining that the only objective way of measuring game quality is by popularity. Both are correct. Any other measure of quality is inherently subjective.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;224314"Quantity has a quality all it's own" Josef Stalin

Out of context, you realize that could mean it is a trait. ;)

Quote from: flyingmice;224314Quantity (sold) is a measure of quality, in that people aren't idiots or sheep. They wouldn't buy such large quantities of something unless it worked for them, no matter how much marketing or branding or whatever is thrown at them. D&D is not for me anymore, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work very well for a huge number of people. If WotC pushed out crap, it wouldn't matter about the brand name or the marketing. people might buy it initially, but would soon abandon it if it didn't work for them. That they buy is, and use it, and keep on buying it is a certain indicator of quality.

They would not sell the second book. Agreed. It has to meet certain level of quality but more importantly, it has to address certain needs. If someone creates a DND clone, today, and puts it out, they will not receive the same sales as WOTC. Why?

Quote from: flyingmice;224314Quantity is not the only marker of quality however. If you have the best game in the world, and I'm sure all of us publishers are absolutely certain we do, if it doesn't have the market presence to let people know of its existence, then that greatness will be forever undiscovered. You won't buy something you don't know even exists. Small press publishers like myself are very much aware of this, and it's difficult to manage, for several reasons:

I disagree. A quality product can have high sales. It is not indicative of the quality though. There is a minimum threshold beyond which the quality does not matter. I would argue that "quality" is a misnomer anyway and what you really need to look at is the elements of the game and how they apply to the customers and markets.

Quote from: flyingmice;224314

• Publisher ignorance of marketing techniques - bigger companies can split off marketing from production, but small press is very limited in this matter by simple economics, forcing people who are very good at coming up with design and production to wear the marketing hat as well. Specialization works, but needs a portion over mere subsistence to even be attempted.


• Paucity of media coverage - there are no methods of paid advertising that aren't either economically unfeasible for small press publishers (ads in Dragon) or bread scattered on the water in hopes of a nibble (banner ads.)


• Broken/severely bent distribution systems - The three tier distribution system encourages high turnover and slim margins. This means retailers have no incentive to stock odd duck small press games, and publishers have no reserves to weather an occasional over-printing or other gamble gone wrong, and we have to gamble to play this game!
  

I disagree with the last point but it is not relevant to the discussion. The other points I agree with.

Quote from: flyingmice;224314What we can (and are attempting to) do about it:

• Start small - pdf distribution is small potatoes and prone to illicit copying, but has no real financial risks. If a project bombs, you are only out your time and direct costs; you don't have 1000 unsold games sitting gathering dust in a warehouse somewhere. This can give you time to build up some small reserves, if you are patient and canny. POD is a bit higher outlay, but still otherwise risk free.


• Direct Sales - bypassing the distribution system can work, but you need knowledge of the retail market. You have to make direct purchase of your games worth the added aggravation for retail outlets of making separate orders in addition to their regular distro order. Most won't bother otherwise.


• Missionary Fervor - here the Forge model excels. Get a group of people hyped and let them market your product from missionary zeal. This won't work so well with more traditional games, as there is nothing inherently different about your game from other games, to give the early disciples a feeling of special belonging and a simple message to preach. The Forge brought together a group of people who were looking for a different way to play, and gave them what they wanted, along with tools to make their own visions of the concept, and encouraged cross marketing and bootstrap loading.
  
  
• Patience - This works too, but takes a very long time and a lot of work. Start small and risk only when you can afford to lose. Keep products coming to support what you already have, either with optional supplements, with cross-compatibility, or both. Exploit under-served niches. Create fan awareness for quality products and service. Establish an on-line presence and cultivate your reputation. Show, don't push. A customer who buys your product under false assumptions is a dissatisfied customer and will directly harm you. Trust is a good thing, but needs effort to maintain. This is what I have always done.

All good points. Excellent summation.

Quote from: flyingmice;224314To get back on-topic from that little digression, there are a lot of quality products out there, and not all of them are popular for many reasons, but very popular products are generally quality products, otherwise they wouldn't be so popular.

-clash

I think we will just have to disagree on this with the caveat that I am not saying quality products cannot have large sales.

Bill

Quote from: Mcrow;224281Og was one that I've heard mentioned before, though I've not read it or paged through it.

Plus Firefly Games (Og)is the Publisher of Fairy's Tale, which is/was very popular online.

Arc Dream (Monsters and other Childish things)publishes Godlike which has a solid following.

Not to mention Paradigm Concepts has been around for like 8 years and publishes the Arcanis line of d20 products (winner of a couple of awards here and there), and runs the Living Arcanis campaign, something they are also doing for Witch Hunter for the last year with the Dark Providence campaign. So it's not like they're new to the biz.

Quote from: Highmoon;224381Not to mention Paradigm Concepts has been around for like 8 years and publishes the Arcanis line of d20 products (winner of a couple of awards here and there), and runs the Living Arcanis campaign, something they are also doing for Witch Hunter for the last year with the Dark Providence campaign. So it's not like they're new to the biz.

yup, that's my point. Just because Pundy hasn't heard of them doesn't mean that they are obscure. But then we know about his ego.

Quote from: Highmoon;224381Not to mention Paradigm Concepts has been around for like 8 years and publishes the Arcanis line of d20 products (winner of a couple of awards here and there), and runs the Living Arcanis campaign, something they are also doing for Witch Hunter for the last year with the Dark Providence campaign. So it's not like they're new to the biz.

I have to admit, it was nice to see them an award.  But they've been doing quality work for awhile.  Codex Arcanis & Witch Hunter both were top-notch.

Quote from: RPGPundit;224178No, its a question of having been relatively successful, like, say ENOUGH THAT THE TYPICAL GAMER STANDS A CHANCE OF HAVING HEARD OF IT.

Please, no matter how you fuckers argue this, how can a game win "best game of the year" when practically no one has played it?

I consider it highly unlikely that a game that no one has heard of will win best game of the year*.

But the point, the benefit of the award, is that it raises the recognition of some great games so more people do play them.

* - In fact, to demonstrate how influential I think market penetration is on the final vote, I'd wager a small confectionery that Wizards' products take home an award in every category they are entered in.

Quote from: Mcrow;224162I new when you sent me the original books and I read them that it was a good game. I also thought it would fair better as a single book. Nice job, BTW. :D

Thanks, Mcrow!  Good advice. :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;224181Ah, ok; I was wondering if that was the Epic RPG; I mean, I supposed it was, but the nominees list said "Epic RPG Man", and confusion ensued. Hope you got on them to correct that.

RPGPundit

Working on it!  

Yup, when I noticed that I had all sorts of weird images running through my head of what an Epic RPG Man would look like.

Quote from: Reimdall;224475Working on it!  

Yup, when I noticed that I had all sorts of weird images running through my head of what an Epic RPG Man would look like.

I thought they had me listed by mistake.

Thanks to everyone for their support of the awards.  We had quite a few tough calls this year.  Not everyone got their personal favorites in, but we worked through compromise and concensus, and I think we managed to pick a pretty good crop.  

That said, I highly recommend that people check out the nominees they havn't heard of.  There were several companies and products submitted this year that I wasn't familiar with at all, and now I find myself to be a total convert.  

As soon as we get the Ok from the ENnies board, I'll be posting my thoughts on the nominees.  I'm happy to answer questions here, or at my blog.  (http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/blogs/viewblog.php?userid=16)

Whoa--I didn't think you'd ever posted here before. :)

Quote from: Zachary The First;224609Whoa--I didn't think you'd ever posted here before. :)

*pshh* yeah.  My incredible post count dominates the RPG Site!!!

*shifty eye*

Newb has to start somewhere, right?

I feel ya.

Probably sent here to keep tabs on me and these malcontents, no doubt. :)

Quote from: Zachary The First;224617I feel ya.

Probably sent here to keep tabs on me and these malcontents, no doubt. :)

Most definitely.  Who knows what you'll leak of our mason-inspired secret conspiracy ENnies judge techniques?

Quote from: Xath;224622Most definitely.  Who knows what you'll leak of our mason-inspired secret conspiracy ENnies judge techniques?

Heh. Wonder if you perceive the irony...

(FYI, our dear esteemed ranter Pundit is a Mason.)

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;224625Heh. Wonder if you perceive the irony...

(FYI, our dear esteemed ranter Pundit is a Mason.)

Had no clue.  Apologies if I offended.

None taken, Xath. But why do I get the feeling that Zach was less than half-joking with his little comment?

RPGPundit

Hey, we are what we are.  We do have a certain reputation among some circles as precisely that. :p  I'll save it for another thread, but with the makeover and the much lower levels of Big Purple-bashing these days, I like to think people stay for the delightful conversation.

The site´s fucked up right now, and Zach is the only one keeping it sorta useful these days.

EDIT: Pundit is not the only Mason around theRPGSite. IIRC at least one other Mod is one.

It seems to me that the more useful question is how, procedurally, one could take the popularity of a game into account.

The judges receive all the products in the mail. They read said products. They then determine which products are of the highest quality. An awards process has been developed in which the judges are only to take notice of a product's contents. How would one change the judging procedure in order to take notice of something other than the product's contents?

I agree with fusangite. I think Pundit sorely missed the point with the ENnies:

Award excellence in the submitted materiel.

My point is that the value of this, aside from it being the "games five dudes think are neat" awards, isn't really worth much. Its certainly not the "best in the industry awards" it claims to be.

RPGPundit

If you had written the above, instead of how you worded your blog entry...

If the only one who knows what you actually mean is Settembrini...it´ll not be helping you much.

Quote from: RPGPundit;224732My point is that the value of this, aside from it being the "games five dudes think are neat" awards, isn't really worth much. Its certainly not the "best in the industry awards" it claims to be.

RPGPundit

Out of curiosity, who would you pick to judge the awards, if not five fans elected by their peers?

Quote from: Settembrini;224664The site´s fucked up right now, and Zach is the only one keeping it sorta useful these days.

EDIT: Pundit is not the only Mason around theRPGSite. IIRC at least one other Mod is one.

Yea, with Sett leaving the site and all...

FYI the judge nominations are now open on the ENnies site.  Check under the "voting" section.

Quote from: fusangite;224666It seems to me that the more useful question is how, procedurally, one could take the popularity of a game into account.

Well, you could have an open vote to determine the winner.  ;)
 
I like that the nomination process is determined by content/quality of judges who are being exposed to a wide variety.  It gives games with small marketing budgets a chance to get noticed.  But the voting makes it unlikely that something will win without some degree of popularity.

So, I'm working on my judges' Q&A for nomination for one more try!  Anyone here going to join me in running?

Quote from: Zachary The First;226711So, I'm working on my judges' Q&A for nomination for one more try!  Anyone here going to join me in running?

yes, I'm going to give it a go this year.

Quote from: Mcrow;226786yes, I'm going to give it a go this year.

I am hereby offering my vote to anyone who has verbally (or physically) abused a forgie in the last 12 months.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;226789I am hereby offering my vote to anyone who has verbally (or physically) abused a forgie in the last 12 months.

hmmmm......I might not be your guy then because I don't believe I abused any forgies recently.:confused:

Quote from: Mcrow;226790hmmmm......I might not be your guy then because I don't believe I abused any forgies recently.:confused:

(turns the cold shoulder).

NEXT.

Quote from: Zachary The First;226711So, I'm working on my judges' Q&A for nomination for one more try!  Anyone here going to join me in running?

Considering it...

Already filled out my Q&A. As always, the question is "should I"?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;226789I am hereby offering my vote to anyone who has verbally (or physically) abused a forgie in the last 12 months.

Does it count against me if I verbally abused you, too? ;)

I'm actually considering it too, since I've been out of ENP for two years now, and haven't written or published anything in that time.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;226808Does it count against me if I verbally abused you, too? ;)

Ironically no! I can take it!

I submitted my Q&A a few days ago.  Figure I'll give it another shot.  :)

Awesome!  Should be a lively competition! :)

To whoever can fix it,
 
The link on the Ennies home page to Flyingmice Games (under the Fans Choice:Best Publisher heading) does not work.

Quote from: JohnnyWannabe;226959To whoever can fix it,
 
The link on the Ennies home page to Flyingmice Games (under the Fans Choice:Best Publisher heading) does not work.

flyingmice.com is temporarily down, Rich.

-clash

Quote from: JohnnyWannabe;226959To whoever can fix it,
 
The link on the Ennies home page to Flyingmice Games (under the Fans Choice:Best Publisher heading) does not work.

I was going to say I'll report it right away, but since clash said the site is down, I'll hold off.  If its still down when FM is up, let me know and I'll make the right folks aware of it.

Quote from: flyingmice;226965flyingmice.com is temporarily down, Rich.

-clash

Okay.

I though that might be the case.

Quote from: Zachary The First;226973I was going to say I'll report it right away, but since clash said the site is down, I'll hold off.  If its still down when FM is up, let me know and I'll make the right folks aware of it.

Thanks, Zachary.