Zak S featured a great interview on his blog about the horror genre, specifically movies. I'm a massive Mario Bava and Italian horror buff in general, so i found the interview great. Kudos to Zak and Sarah Horrocks!
Link - http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/the-horror-horrocks.html
So, the relevant question - How do you translate horror movie tropes to traditional RPGs?
Any house rules, or ideas on how to do it?
If Zak or Sarah want to contribute as well, that'd be great.
i wrote this:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/03/call-of-cthulhu-tips.html
Here's a text versions (without links, so you miss a bit) cut and pasted:
You are not always going to get fear. Some players are capable of genuine fear while gaming. Most aren't. If you can't, don't worry about it. Fear mode is nice, but there is also Argento Mode, with sudden discontinuities and mayhem and panic. I recently ended a session with a player gently escorting a screaming cop into a hotel suite where Jez was fondling the toothed bosom of the wolfmother, Cole was on a bed with 3 dead naked teenage boys and Mandy was rolling a 01 maximum impale to fire completely blind ("I'm not looking, I'm not looking") at the first lady and save the world. That would be Argento mode.
-Fear mode looks like that.
-Do try to get an emotion. Disgust is pretty easy. You don't necessarily get emotions by thinking up brand new ideas so much as by describing whatever idea is there in enough sensory detail that people are actually imagining it. Tactile detail is probably the best. Like ok, there's the old Cthulhu statue and then there's You run your hand across the surface and it feels like--Have you ever run your hand across someone's skin in the morning? Like that--only also stone, like unaccountably warm. And bulbous, like tumors emerging. Just one emotion all night is ok.
-If you have someone capable of fear: run the game and start with any emotion you can get. Attachment to an object, liking an NPC, pride in the PCs accomplishments, whatever. If the emotion is negative (disgust, etc.)--good. If it is positive, sour it--have the enemy ruin it, brush it aside: "Your machines, your knowledge, they will not save you, your hope is hopeless" Most negative emotions are adjacent to fear. Just push them until they are fear.
(-And, of course, if you have someone truly fragile: then stop. Don't be a dick.)
-A scary thing: the familiar or otherwise comfortable thing suddenly being alienated from you. Your friends don't know you, your dog has no eyes, the human is not acting human, etc.
-Another scary thing: the skin is part of our immune system. Our first and most visible barrier. It is The Horror Threshold. Things that get past the skin, are under the skin or push through it, disrupt it, these things are horrible. If you can make players think about The Body it'll get you into The Mind pretty quick.
-Design the adventure with at least 2 powerful images. Just think of two things that interest you and are compelling. One is the first intimations of the horror, one is The Final Horror. Something fucked. You're good.
-Don't knock yourself out with the Mythos. You look up some mythos thing and you know what it'll tell you? Lovecraft mentioned it in 4 separate lines in 4 separate stories and each time it was some whole other thing. You know what Lovecraft would do? Make up something totally fucked up. Just do that. Worry about whether it's Hastur or Nyarlathotep later.
-Funny is good. Funny is great. In fact, let yourself laugh. Like sometimes if you are GMing you want to not laugh because you've got this adventure to run here but seriously, you do not have to Be A Fan Of The PCs, but be a fan of their players, and their jokes...
-...and their anything else they do right. If there is a phrase or image or line they come up with that is just perfect, say that. Stop the whole game and say that. In general: when anything cool is produced by players, encourage it. This has two effects: encouraging the player and showing everybody that its ok to go ahead and act--this activity will be rewarded.
-Try to remember who is insane. This can be hard, especially when the full mayhem is running:
Me: "Alright, the man with the leech face leans in, putting his face completely around your face and trying to sort of kiss you"
Guy playing a character based on his alcoholic Native American healer uncle: "Well, I'm still hallucinating, so..."
Me: "Yeah, right, so you are looking into his gullet and you see you are looking down into the coils of the great snake from which all of the world emerged in the time of the kicking rabbit and the blood clot boy and..."
Guy: "Well then I'm going to try to get _further in there_ "
Me: "Ok, so you grab it by either side and push your face into its mouth..."
And to think I would've missed it had he not reminded me...
-Likewise: try to remember who is on fire.
-SAN checks for seeing monsters and what all are gonna happen, but remember to run SAN checks for just mundane badness like seeing dead bodies and accidentally shooting civilians and suchlike sundry minor devastating incidents. Lose a few here and there once in a while. If you look at the stats for like a Nightgaunt, you don't necessarily lose that much SAN for seeing one--but of it's built on a bed of disturbing events...
-Purity has its limits. No matter what, Lovecraft stories aren't about 4 people. Definitely not about 4 people who are too terribly interesting. You're already not going to recreate a Lovecraft story. Just go for something good and twisted.
-The basic Hunter/Hunted structure can be bolted to almost anything. Even in the middle of an adventure. If the PCs are not moving toward the Horror, have the Horror move PCward.
-Things that make Call of Cthulhu easier:
*One insane PC does the work of a wandering monster. Essentially, when a PC starts getting jittery, play on it, use it to your advantage, that PC is the show now. Squeeze as much adventure as you can out of that PC.
*Everything is normal except the stuff you added in. In fantasy and SF you get an Oskar Schindler thing going on Oh with a little more effort you could've put something weird there and there and there. In a horror set up you just need a normal world. Just describe it creepy.
*Supernatural horror is pervasive: psychic emanations or dream echoes or what-all can pretty much account for any weird thing happening in the vicinity of the Horror. You don't need too much of a reason to have something strange happen all of a sudden.
*Stats are easy: Monsters therefore can be thought of as having hit points of 1 or 2 or 3 times human or 10 or whatever. The monsters have some chance to hit the PCs (60%, 70%) and some damage they do when they hit. Describing them and making them horrible and keeping them around just long enough that fucked up shit has time to happen while the players are encountering them is the key. In general, monsters have lots of hit points and don't dodge because they are implacable. But whatever works, really. Unlike D&D monsters, they don't have to actually be that mechanically tough for players to register them as dangerous or that mechanically interesting for the players to register them as interesting. Because it's the only monster in the game and you have essentially spent the whole game making them feel dangerous and interesting.
-It helps to have at least one person who will roleplay-as-in-act at the table. This lets other people know its ok and will be fun and not superfluous. In our session Cole did a great job of being the cop who was like: Well, I understand you are an indigenous person and you got your, uh, native medicine understanding of this, uh, Humbawamaba kinda thing and all I know is there's like a baby goat coming out of this guy and if you're telling me it's some kinda spiritual thing I'm with you because I ain't never seen that before. And then everybody sees that that's fun when the player acts and it lets them know its ok to do that and then it goes.
-Build the goddamn adventure around the way the goddamn players act and react. Horror is, basically, about a person with a personality and then a Horror that personality faces. Ripley and the Xenomorph, Rosemary and the Baby, The Torrances and Jack, the anxious Lovecraft narrator guy and Cthulhu. Everything between them (the physical set up, the plot) is just there to help dramatize that conflict. If the players reactions are giving you so much there isn't time for some structural device the adventure-as-written gives you, that's ok. Just let that happen. So long as you fit something horrible in before everybody goes home, it's all good.
-You can skip the resistance table--just roll d10+stat vs d10+stat for any contest or somesuch. BRP is an extremely robust system. Probably the most robust yet devised, you can fuck around with it and bolt all kindsa shit onto it and it still won't break--at least for human-scale conflict.
-Horror games have 3 parts: the parts where your PC investigates, the parts where you--the player--are scared, and the parts where you act. If your party is incapable of fear then the second part in the middle is a kind of acting (acting scared). Give players a chance to do all these parts and go with whichever ones seem fun for that group. All have an ability to shape the adventure, let it.
-I like to start with a picture, like in yesterday's post. Gets the PCs right into the scene and gives them the feeling there is something concrete to investigate. The "here's a bunch of guys" or "here's the crime scene" photo gives you a lot of details without you having to describe each one and trying not to lampshade the right detail by drowning it in a series of irrelevant details. Also, if you don't feel like you'll have words to describe The Horror when it comes, you can try to find a picture of that.
I'v e been GMing CoC (with my own set of rules based on FASERIP) the better part of twenty years now. I've found it best to focus on one of three extremes for a game: fear, horror, and paranoia. These are interrelated concepts but dictate three distinct styles of game. I don't care for "disgust" as a otivation, I find it a bit juvenile.
As has been noted, fear is the hardest of the three to pull off, but perhaps not as hard as one would think. The trick to creating fear is to control the environment of the game. First of all, music is essential. My go-to is Christopher Young's Hellraiser & Hellraiser 2 soundtracks. I mix this with experimental stuff I seek out online. I also always dim the lights, with candlelight play preferrable. Fear works best IME with 2 to 3 players, so everyone is constantly engaged in the game without downtime as others "take thier turn". I'll often go further than this. I ran one game that took place on a submarine, with each player sitting in a different room with no lights on, only able to communicate uusing walkie-talkies. The other aspect to creating fear is perhaps the hardest: the players have to care about thier characters. Thats why it doesnt work well for one-shots. Having a character survive a couuple games of horror and paranoia sets the stage well for a game to create actual fear, as the loss of a character becomes a minor tragedy. If you can create likeable NPCs this also plays in your favour.
Horror is perhaps the easiest, and while close to disgust, its less about gore and more about using the player's imaginations to fill in the gaps. A good one recently I ran featured a jigsaw puzzle created from parts of a human face; when the parts were assmbled the face spoke. Another one my players tell me was memorable featured a church service the characters attended where, when the collection plate was passed around, the parishoners cut off pieces of thier flesh to put inside. I don't linger on the descriptions though, just enough for the players to be able to imagine it how they like. The more you can imply without describing the better. What was that strange meat you were served at dinner? Why is there a pit in the basement full of baby's toys with animal teeth marks? How come children disappear when left alone in the room with that grandfather clock? Why do those puppet's eyes look so wet?
Paranoia is the fuunnest, and can be the easiest once you've been playing with agroup for a while. Players inevitably begin to expect certain things when playing in my horror games. I'll use a set formula for a while, and then pull the rug out. Ive run very effective horror games where there was nothing suupernatural or horrific actuually going on. I simply let the players follow thier assumptions and ry to hidemy smiles as they oh so carefully open the closet door, or run from the noises in the barn without realizing its nothing but an old goat inside.
I'm not a fan of CoC's SAN point system. A bit too disassociated for my tastes. Instead I make players draw from a tarot deck (The Vertigo deck by Dave McKean specifically) when they encounter anything that tests thier sanity. These days, pulling nout the tarot deck at any time during a game draws a collective "ooooooohhhhh" from the other players.
As for tropes...honestly, I ignore them. Tropes are things that arose naturally from storytelling over time and became popular enough that they were repeated over and over until they became identified with genres. I find they either occur naturally, or they are forced upon a game in a way that creates disonnance and metathinking. If something feels right in the context of a situation, just do it. But I dont like to start with the meta and work inwards, Id rather start vicerally and evaluate afterwards.
I could (and probably will) write more, but pressed for time today.
I'm feeling wonky so my thoughts may be a bit jumbled. BTW, really appreciate the thoughts by TristramEvans and Zak S.
1) I find it important to emphasize the mundane, almost to a boring degree, to allow me room to crescendo upward into the nightmare.
2) I am also a fan of "dreamscape horror" where "is this real?" "is this a dream?" are questions. I once had PCs hunting a werewolf tell me all about how they made their preparations to bunk down for the night and I intently listened, lowered the lights and let everything go quiet THEN I announced they were awoke driving Corvettes at 140mph down a moonlit road...and the werewolf steps into the road.
3) I believe in ultraviolence. Monsters don't do D8 damage. They bite off fingers, furiously going after that same PC to tore apart their hand, then their arm...each round, ignoring the damage it suffers by the other PCs just to merciless go after one PC over and over again.
4) I also believe in non-violence. People vanish, reappear without memory, or reappear with unusual memory, things change - the gun the PC loaded is now unloaded, his bullets neatly wrapped like candies in his pocket. I played in a CoC game where the "monster" made people blissfully happy, and fed off their glowing happiness as they starved in mad delusions of ecstasy.
5) I love the Mythos, but Cthulhu is dead. The Big C is plushy, all his bros are cliche now...except there are plenty of minor entities, both from HPL himself and from other authors. Personally, I like Shub-Niggurath, the goat of a thousand young. I find CoC fans know the name, but are less familiar with its history. Tentacles are cliche too, but crawling intestines do fine.
6) I also like to mess with their toys, but not just making them not work. The PC with the revolver. After six shots, it clicks itself six more times, each time a new bullet materializes, a bullet engraved with a word, or a name, or a symbol. I have computers turn on, google scroll itself and give the PCs a clue...its the modern version of the book falling off the shelf and turning to the right page.
I find the critical thing for horror is that the PCs feel vulnerable. Not many RPG systems do this; the only one I know that really works is BRP (Call of Chulu, Runequest et al) where you have a small number of ablative hit points that never goes up, bad things happen while you are still at positive hp, and at 0 hp you are dead-dead. Apart from CoC I have also used BRP for an 'Aliens' mini-campaign, it worked wonderfully even with no SAN rules.
By contrast games that make 'Heroic' PCs like Savage Worlds, and games that give you a large number of ablative hit points like All Flesh Must Be Eaten (Unisystem) do not work for horror. I've played nominal-horror scenarios in both and never felt scared; the systems just didn't support it.
You can go too far the other way too - games where '1 hit = dead' like 1st level Classic D&D don't really support horror, either, the player tends to treat the PC as a disposable pawn. CoC gives you the hp to typically be wounded first before you die, which is the vulnerability sweet spot. It might be even better if it had more of a death spiral, such as Runequest's hit location system with disabled limbs & such.
Quote from: Zak S;795185i wrote this:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/03/call-of-cthulhu-tips.html
Here's a text versions (without links, so you miss a bit) cut and pasted:
You are not always going to get fear. Some players are capable of genuine <...snip...>
you having to describe each one and trying not to lampshade the right detail by drowning it in a series of irrelevant details. Also, if you don't feel like you'll have words to describe The Horror when it comes, you can try to find a picture of that.
Great stuff.
I would also add that you can think small and get a great reaction. getting a weird looking little girl to sign a nursery rhyme in a squeekly little voice might sound cliched but little stuff like that will build up tension.
Also NPCs. the most effective fear moments I have managed to produce were just het party talking to NPCs who were entirely unhinged but in a beleivable way not a D&D way if you see what I mean. I had the party in a WoD game visit a sanitorium where a bunch of people where being held because they thouight they were vampires. They were actually malkavs and were vampires but their madnesses were much more real and so much more disturbing. The party got really uncomfortable just sitting with them in their cells even though most of them were entirely restrained.
Quote from: Spinachcat;7952755) I love the Mythos, but Cthulhu is dead. The Big C is plushy, all his bros are cliche now...except there are plenty of minor entities, both from HPL himself and from other authors. Personally, I like Shub-Niggurath, the goat of a thousand young. I find CoC fans know the name, but are less familiar with its history. Tentacles are cliche too, but crawling intestines do fine.
.
the King in Yellow still works and in fact I am adding him to my 5e campaign as a Warlock's patron.
Whatever you guys do, shock the PCs in horror, not the players.
Quote from: Phantom Black;795316Whatever you guys do, shock the PCs in horror, not the players.
When I play in a horror campaign, I want to be frightened and horrified.
There are lots of different types of horror.
Psychological: You seeeeee things, feeeel things. Or dont. You only see the after effects, or hints of something. Blair Which for example is allmost purely psychological horror. And like in the movie. It usually starts small and builds.
Psychic: This is alot of Lovecrafts horror. Some sort of realization or epiphany that shocks the person to their core. In some Lovecraft stories it is the knowledge that there are things out there so vast and implacable and indifferent that it crushes the ego. The ant given full 1000% proof that it IS an ant upon seeing a human and grasping what it implies. Other times it is the utterly alien nature combined with Nth dimensional aspects. Like looking at a living Esher painting or optical illusion. The brain just snaps trying to grasp this thing. Alot of snobs against Lovecrafts works fail to comprehend this.
Biological: Deformities, mutations, abberations, alterations. Better if the character has no grounding in such things before hand. But a few monster buffs will crack too when presented with the real thing.
Natural: Animals can be truely horrifying. Especially insects with their alien shapes and often utterly merciless feeding habits. Especially if the characters are without the benefit of advanced technology. And even that wont help when its the wrong sort.
Visceral: blood, death and gore. Current movie trend seems fixated on this one. but just finding a dead body, without blood or gore can be pretty shocking too under the right circumstances.
Physical Supernatural: Usually undead. Zombies are absolutely overused now in movies and games. Used well they can be effective still. The type of undead can be a factor. Mindless ones have a different impact than intelligent ones.
Mechanical: Deathtraps, mazes, and other things just waiting to off you. Sometimes specifically targeted, sometimes just THERE, waiting.
And others.
Often combined with a sense of isolation or being cut off from everyone. But can also happen right in the middle of a city when no one believes you.
Think out wether the problem can be combatted or not. Part of some horror is the race to find a solution. In others there is no solution and escape is the only way. (A solution too as it were)
Way back in the day, I ran a Chill game, the details of which aren't necessarily important, but I did manage to actually send a chill (ha!) down the back of one player that he still talks about today.
Late at night, the investigators are in separate bedrooms in a house. Very dark/moonless/clouded night, not stormy however. One of the investigators wakes up in the darkness of the bedroom to the sound of something scratching at the bedroom door. Playing in character (instead of leaping into Combat Mode), they cower in the bed and hope whatever it is will go away, which it does after a few minutes. Relieved, the character goes back to sleep.
Next morning, bright and early, they get out of bed, open the curtains, and prepare to greet the day - and turn to see there are a series of scratches on the INSIDE OF THE DOOR!!!
Like I said, a serious "woah" moment, at the time and to this day. I think it worked well because of a) full and setting-appropriate description of what was going on (not just then, but throughout the adventure) and b) player buy-in, understanding the genre and sticking to how their character would respond, rather than just rolling for initiative and leaping out of bed. One of my more successful adventures, as everyone really got into the atmosphere, the plot, and their characters as characters, rather than stat-blocks.
Seems to me that most "horror" games just degenerate into slasher-fests without everyone basically agreeing (even if it's unsaid) to get into the idea of creepiness and things that go "scratch" in the night.
Fear can come from a lack of something -- be it knowledge, self-awareness or the tools needed to deal with conflicts.
Some of the most common things I use in a game to increase the scare factor include:
The Unknown: Orcs are a known quantity. So are many Lovecraftian monsters. A mysterious force that can drive people insane just from being seen is not. A lack of information means that players and characters don’t know how to prepare for what is ahead. That’s why many horror stories, movies and games include information gathering so the characters have a chance of understanding what is going on.
Limited Resources: A major difference between the video games Doom 3 and Limbo is firepower. The more influence, weapons, items and money the players can bring to bear on a problem, the less likely they are to be afraid. Players who have to ration a few rounds of ammunition for the whole night will be under more stress. Players with no weapons might try to avoid confrontations altogether, worried about what happens when they can no longer run.
Lack of Control: The players find evidence of the unnatural, but no one seems to believe them because it is too far-fetched. Characters run away only to find the creature chasing them is now blocking the way out. Some threats might even change what the characters see and feel, leaving them unable to escape the clutches of an unreliable narrator.
Success in many RPGs comes down to controlling the odds (attack from high grounds, spend bennies, gain bonuses, get Advantage). Messing with that can put players on edge.
Quote from: Werekoala;795331Seems to me that most "horror" games just degenerate into slasher-fests without everyone basically agreeing (even if it's unsaid) to get into the idea of creepiness and things that go "scratch" in the night.
That's very much been my impression of horror games. It doesn't matter what is in your box of tricks if the Players don't want to be scared... don't enjoy horror.
Quote from: Spinachcat;7952755) I love the Mythos, but Cthulhu is dead. The Big C is plushy, all his bros are cliche now...
The reason Cthulhu and other monsters get neutered into jokes and plush toys is because they really do harness themes that disturb people on some level. Cthulhu is still fucking scary if you can bring it out in its original intent and not as some ersatz Kaiju.
Then again, you could see the whole campaign to make Cthulhu kid-friendly as a successful first step by cultists marketing their faith to the masses.
Quote from: Simlasa;795367The reason Cthulhu and other monsters get neutered into jokes and plush toys is because they really do harness themes that disturb people on some level. Cthulhu is still fucking scary if you can bring it out in its original intent and not as some ersatz Kaiju.
I always have trouble understanding how Cthulu & Lovecraftian 'manifestations of an impersonal uncaring universe' critters can be considered scary. Maybe because I was raised atheist; Lovecraft's 'horrific revelation' that the universe doesn't care a crap about us, that religion and morality are just sops to keep us sane, is basically what I was taught as a kid. :D
The horror that scares me is personal, body horror. Zack S's stuff above can easily ick me out. The only HPL story that scared me was one where the protagonist ends up trapped in the body of a rotting, shambling corpse. The Liverpool Care Pathway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Care_Pathway_for_the_Dying_Patient#Controversy) (British hospital policy of thirsting patients to death) scares the Hell out of me. The prospect of the world being obliterated by a giant meteor or Great Old One really doesn't.
Quote from: S'mon;795384The horror that scares me is personal, body horror. .
The older I get, the more I see and experience, the more body horror frightens me.
Quote from: S'mon;795384I always have trouble understanding how Cthulu & Lovecraftian 'maniestations of an impersonal uncaring universe' critters can be considered scary.
That's part of the scary, and not everyone is so comfortable with their own meaninglessness as you are... but the Mythos critters are also often from outside our reality... they bend and twist space and get into our minds... even when they're dead. The madness they cause isn't just the realization of what they are... but the bizarre affects they have on the spaces around them.
Junji Ito's comic
Uzumaki is how I picture hanging around Mythos entities might affect people.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;795319When I play in a horror campaign, I want to be frightened and horrified.
No, you don't want to be traumatized.
One of my best horror moments as a DM was during the playtest for the never published End Times near future setting. One of the intro scenarios has the PCs in an office building during the outbreaks and battling their way down to the Daycare center to collect their kids and get the hell out. They make it all the way down and to the kids. Who turn around in unison and all are mutating and the parents can see whats left of the daycare personell...
The look on the players faces was perfect. They had faced down a ghoul without much fuss. But THIS... this got them.
Quote from: Phantom Black;795424No, you don't want to be traumatized.
Yeah. I am not talking about trauma.
Then you meant "thrilled" instead of "horrified"?
Because i once had a horrifying experience at the game table:
The GM of a D&D campaign i was playing in had railroaded the party to Hell just to describe the character of a fellow female player (who had politely rebuffed his creepy advances towards her) getting tortured and gangraped by the villains of the adventure, in graphic detail.
Adding insult to injury (speaking about the "GM"), the female player had been a rape victim.
Getting thrilled by horrific in-game action is one thing, but getting traumatized at the table is another...
Got my point?
Quote from: Phantom Black;795893Then you meant "thrilled" instead of "horrified"?
Because i once had a horrifying experience at the game table:
The GM of a D&D campaign i was playing in had railroaded the party to Hell just to describe the character of a fellow female player (who had politely rebuffed his creepy advances towards her) getting tortured and gangraped by the villains of the adventure, in graphic detail.
Adding insult to injury (speaking about the "GM"), the female player had been a rape victim.
Getting thrilled by horrific in-game action is one thing, but getting traumatized at the table is another...
Got my point?
I meant horrified and terrified in the literary senses of the words not in the sense of being traumatized. So no I meant horrified, but not in the same way you are using it I suppose. I don't know, when I play a horror game I want to experience the feeling of dread you get when you slowly start to realize things are not right, or the world isn't what it seems (horror) but I also want to be spooked by fierce monsters (fear). And yes, of course I do not want to be traumatized, nor do I want others to be traumatized. But I also think it is obvious I didn't mean that.
IMO that's a misnomer.
No one wants to be truly horrified in a sense of dread and fear, unless one's masochistically inclined because dread and fear aren't positive emotions, hence "thrill" makes way more sense to me.
Yes, i do get thrilled while gaming at times, but i never got horrified (feeling dread or fear) while gaming, no matter how hard i and the GMs tried.
But alas, i'm neither superstitious nor really anxious in real life.
*shrugs*
Quote from: Phantom Black;795916IMO that's a misnomer.
No one wants to be truly horrified in a sense of dread and fear, unless one's masochistically inclined because dread and fear aren't positive emotions, hence "thrill" makes way more sense to me.
Yes, i do get thrilled while gaming at times, but i never got horrified (feeling dread or fear) while gaming, no matter how hard i and the GMs tried.
But alas, i'm neither superstitious nor really anxious in real life.
*shrugs*
I think you are reading too much into it.
The point of a horror movie is for the viewer to feel the horror, not the characters. I want that same experience when playing a Horror RPG. People have been talking about the viewer experiencing horror and terror in the way I am using now for some time. This is standard for the genre and it refers to the viewers response. If you want to take it to mean psychologically traumatized go ahead but I think it is perfectly clear that isn't what most folks mean when they talk about it in game.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;795925If you want to take it to mean psychologically traumatized go ahead but I think it is perfectly clear that isn't what most folks mean when they talk about it in game.
Yeah, you're right, it isn't. I don't want trauma but I do want horror... flooding over the PC and on to me, the Player.
Most of the times when I've experienced it in games it has been a situation where my PC has had a hand in the badness somehow... watching some well-intentioned action end up causing the deaths of noble NPCs or other Player characters... or some sort of awful body horror thing going on that just makes me... through the PC... want to run away screaming.
I enjoy that sort of stuff, but I know a good number of people do not.
Sorry, but then horror isn't possible as such.
There's always a clear distinction between fiction and reality. A viewer/reader is always detached from the protagonists.
Quote from: Phantom Black;795985Sorry, but then horror isn't possible as such.
There's always a clear distinction between fiction and reality. A viewer/reader is always detached from the protagonists.
In a good bit of fiction/art, with a willing audience, that screen can become quite transparent. Sorry for you if you've been unable to experience that.
I have been accused, on a few occasions, of losing myself in a PC... in a moment. Not as a good/bad thing... and it's not something I'm always seeking out. I think it just happens from time to time to a lot of people when they really get into the game.
It is enjoyable though... and probably one of the reasons I don't enjoy 'storygames' as much.
Quote from: Phantom Black;795985Sorry, but then horror isn't possible as such.
There's always a clear distinction between fiction and reality. A viewer/reader is always detached from the protagonists.
Again, you are treating things too literally here. What people experience when they watch a horror movie or read a horror story, is traditionally labeled terror and horror. Is it like being there in reality? No. But the viewer feels like he or she is there if the suspension of disbelief is removed and what one experiences when this happens in the horror genre is what we are talking about. You feel a kind of dread that is both pleasant and unpleasant at the same time. You want to equate Terror and Horror with the actual emotions a person being hacked to death would feel. You can do that but it isn't what we are talking about and it isn't what anyone means when they say they were terrified or horrified by a movie.
Quote from: Simlasa;795988In a good bit of fiction/art, with a willing audience, that screen can become quite transparent. Sorry for you if you've been unable to experience that.
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I would agree with this. Most folks I talk to about this can relate to being so engrossed in a film or so on the edge of their seat, they forget their in their living room and think they are there however briefly.
Quote from: Phantom Black;795316Whatever you guys do, shock the PCs in horror, not the players.
This is a pretty vague statement:
In the interview, Sarah talks all about how she wants to be actually scared. Lots of people do
not want to be actually scared.
The line between "scared" and "shocked in horror" is semantic.
You can say: "If you are playing with people capable of being psychologically traumatized by a game, then be more careful than if you are playing with people who are not". That's much more precise.
Quote from: Zak S;795991In the interview, Sarah talks all about how she wants to be actually scared. Lots of people do not want to be actually scared.
Yeah, I'm finding that, especially as people get older, they start trying to avoid the really scary stuff... favoring horror comedy or subtle gothic atmospheres if anything... but steering clear of anything overtly transgressive or confrontational. I'm guessing it has to do with the weight of the world on their shoulders... of actual RL fears they don't want to deal with... or something.
I used to mock folks that didn't like horror... books/movies/games... but now I grudgingly respect it... it's like being a vegetarian or avoiding gluten... so I just have to seek out the meat eaters when I want to play CoC... and sometimes they aren't that easy to find.
I would not play a horror rpg with a player who "does not want to be scared". That's just not buying into the premise from the get-go. Thats like playing D&D with a player who doesn't want to go on adventures. Why the hell did they show up then? To ruin everyone else's fun? Screw that.
Quote from: TristramEvans;795993I would not play a horror rpg with a player who "does not want to be scared". That's just not buying into the premise from the get-go. Thats like playing D&D with a player who doesn't want to go on adventures. Why the hell did they show up then? To ruin everyone else's fun? Screw that.
If someone says to me "I like horror movies, except for xxxxx it hits too close to home and reminds me of 'Nam--can I play in your game?" I am not going to be like "WELL THEN GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR!"
Quote from: Zak S;795994If someone says to me "I like horror movies, except for xxxxx it hits too close to home and reminds me of 'Nam" I am not going to be like "WELL THEN GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR!"
No... but there are people who, when asked, will flat out tell you they dislike anything horror related... but will still show up for a Call of Cthulhu game and subvert the whole thing with lame jokes and chatter because... I don't know why... they didn't expect it to actually be a horror game?
Again, it's all the more reason to have 'The Talk' before the game and make sure everyone's on the same starting line. 'Nam Flashback Guy's concerns will be taken into consideration... as long as he brings it up and doesn't just assume stuff.
Quote from: Zak S;795994If someone says to me "I like horror movies, except for xxxxx it hits too close to home and reminds me of 'Nam--can I play in your game?" I am not going to be like "WELL THEN GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR!"
Depends what xxxxx is; I might very well be like that. I'm there to have fun, not navigate a player's emotional problems.
If xxxxx is reasonable, or doesnt interfere with the game overall, then I'd more than likely be fine with that. I don't do rape pedastry or other things of that nature in my games, its reasonable to not have to deal with that crap when one is trying to have fun. But a player who shows up to a horror game and then gets angry because something scared them? Thats not someone I want to play with.
Quote from: TristramEvans;796000If xxxxx is reasonable, or doesnt interfere with the game overall, then I'd more than likely be fine with that. I don't do rape pedastry or other things of that nature in my games, its reasonable to not have to deal with that crap when one is trying to have fun.
Agreed. I don't want to play in a minefield of 'triggers'... I'd rather that player go elsewhere... but there are certain obvious things that most people are understandably not OK with and I'd have to get a go ahead before bringing them in. I've seen what happens when a GM has the whole group gang-raped by Deep Ones...
Quote from: Omega;795437The look on the players faces was perfect. They had faced down a ghoul without much fuss. But THIS... this got them.
How many of your players were parents? Because yeah, that would hook me in the game, you'd be getting genuine emotion, and I'd be enjoying it. I'd be thinking about that shit for weeks... but it's a tough balance, between "I have fear buttons and I DO enjoy them being pressed" and "I have fear buttons and I DO NOT enjoy them being pressed" (If adorable girlfriend was at that game table, for example, she would NOT enjoy that scenario). You've got to know your audience, or give them plenty of opportunity to back out if the game is not going in a good direction for them... and if they need to use the safe word (For lack of a better time), stop it, right then and there.
I don't know what to say, it's a hard call to make. I've played horror games with complete strangers, and had a lot of fun, but I wouldn't recommend it due to the possibility of it going very, very badly.
Quote from: Phantom Black;795916No one wants to be truly horrified in a sense of dread and fear, unless one's masochistically inclined because dread and fear aren't positive emotions, hence "thrill" makes way more sense to me.
It's a game, it's inherently not real. If the GM can achieve that level of immersion in their players, then they're doing something very, very right with their GM'ing.
And then when we're done, we have a pint, we talk about it, we make sure we're all good, and then we all go back home or wherever. Cathartic.
Quote from: Ladybird;796012It's a game, it's inherently not real. If the GM can achieve that level of immersion in their players, then they're doing something very, very right with their GM'ing.
If the GM can achieve that level of immersion in their Players it says as much about the Players as it does the GM... the best GM in the world can't work his magic without a receptive group.
As a Player I've had some nearly great moments diminished by some dolt at the table deciding it was just the right time to show us a 'hilarious' Youtube video... or regale us with his Spanish Inquisition joke... again.
I tend to manage existential angst and occult weirdness better than horror per se.
Quote from: RPGPundit;796956I tend to manage existential angst and occult weirdness better than horror per se.
This is probably true for many good GMs. I've only been scared the shit out of me by one GM (and consistently at that) since I started role-playing. And we're not talking jump scares, but a real feeling of dread.
I think this skill is reserved for the Mount Olympos of GMs.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;796963This is probably true for many good GMs. I've only been scared the shit out of me by one GM (and consistently at that) since I started role-playing. And we're not talking jump scares, but a real feeling of dread.
I think this skill is reserved for the Mount Olympos of GMs.
could you try to convey how the dm did it? i don't think i can imagine being really scared while playing a roleplaying game. being afraid because of what happens in the game. a "real feeling of dread"? i want to believe you (and others who claim the same), but i don't know if i can. i've never seen anything even close to this.
is it actually something the gm does or does it depend more on what the players are like?
Quote from: shlominus;796992could you try to convey how the dm did it? i don't think i can imagine being really scared while playing a roleplaying game. being afraid because of what happens in the game. a "real feeling of dread"? i want to believe you (and others who claim the same), but i don't know if i can. i've never seen anything even close to this.
is it actually something the gm does or does it depend more on what the players are like?
I can understand your disbelief. He had a lot of rotating groups and was always able to achieve that.
It was a mixture of his persona, using voice (twisting it, slowly starting to get silent, breaking out of it) and subtle music to its fullest effect (Koyaanisqatsi-Theme, Wojciech Kilar's Dracula soundtrack), proper usage of grimasses, making absurdly detailed descriptions only to increase horror, playing CoC always around autumn, when it got foggy here in Austria, etc. All of this mind you, mostly without utilising a lot of monstrous creatures -- those he used rather scarcely, but you feared the possibility of them popping up even more.
Atop all of this, his Cthulhu sessions were fucking deadly. When you got to 10% Cthulhu Mythos, you earned it, man.
I specifically remember one time, when I was much younger, where we fought a cult of Shub-Niggurath, where me and my friends got stressed out by going outside into the unlit dark after the session. Good times!
Yeah, that's one thing I learned GMing Call of Cthulhu; don't pull punches. When I GM fantasy, I tend to be very ..."forgiving" of PCs I want then to succeed. So I will provide every opportuunity for them to survive. They may get robbed, captured, knocked ouut what have you. But death is really a last resort. In my Cthulhuu sessions its rare every player gets out alive. TPKs happen with alarming (to me) frequency, and I dont think there's been more then a handful of sessions at least one PC wasnt killed. I'm not a malicious GM, I try to be nuetral, I'm just MORE nuetral in horror games. Mistakes have deadly consequences.
I also am very sparing with my use of the supernatural or monsters. When they show up, its shocking, its fast, and its a whirlwind of violence. I try to leave the players gasping for breath and going "WTF was that?!" This means I don't do combat as "rounds" or any sort of organized turns. Its freeform, and players have split seconds to react. Monsters dont deal HP damage: they tear limbs, gnaw through bones, and slice into flesh.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;796963This is probably true for many good GMs. I've only been scared the shit out of me by one GM (and consistently at that) since I started role-playing. And we're not talking jump scares, but a real feeling of dread.
I think this skill is reserved for the Mount Olympos of GMs.
That's happened for me a few times over the years, but certainly with no consistency. Usually, its when I'm running someone else's adventure, but almost never one of the actual "horror RPGs".