Talk about serendipity. I was thinking about Dragon Warrior Elves; those creatures that are ageless but have no souls when all this talk of pantheons and religions here caught my sight.

I do not want to talk about religion or pantheons or gods but about society. In particular if the elves of Dragon Warrior have no souls, then what is their society like? What would be the basis for their laws? Would their civilization be "alien"?

(Dragon Warriors was a roleplaying game released as a set of 6 paperback  books in the mid to late 1980s.).

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Eric

I don't see where lacking a soul will change society much, apart from (maybe) getting rid of religion. If the gods take, or are believed to take, an active role in peoples' lives even religion would stick around.

Likewise laws wouldn't change much, since most laws are designed to protect life and property and not the soul.

There might be a higher percentage of whack jobs ready to kill at the drop of a hat, but in general life might be held in higher regard since you've only got one chance to leave your mark on history.

Quote from: enelsonTalk about serendipity. I was thinking about Dragon Warrior Elves; those creatures that are ageless but have no souls when all this talk of pantheons and religions here caught my sight.

Dragon Warriors - I made the exact reverse connection while skimming the "soul" thread.

I am not sure if a society would be so much different or even alien.
Do our laws revolve around the concept of an undying soul? The medieval mind was concerned by that, but even then stuff happened on this side of life - some of which motivated by religious/philosophical thoughts, some by rather mundane factors.

I think that in the absence of religion life could very much be more important, revered perhaps. But the real crux is the quality of life. A nice shiny afterlife is very appealing when the one you have is full of shit and hard toil. Take away the afterlife and you are taking away one of the things that get people through the day, when they're up to their elbows in shit, disease and persecution. But, considering the long life of the elves, i would suggest that the main cultural difference would be that they would pursue a better standard of living. The fine things, art, poetry, singing, dancing, having fun, getting rid of the crap that sucks. Sleeping around.

Death would be a very sad event. Murder, unpardonable.

Elves have Spirits Human have souls comes from Tolkien where the Elves were bound to Middle Earth and when they died they returned to Aman 'Undying lands' to be resurrected while men went 'elsewhere' From there people came up with their own explanations.

The Simarillion is not the most widely read bottom and even among the readers they missed the implication of Elven death.

Here is a summary from the wikipedia entry

QuoteElves are naturally immortal. In addition to their immortality, Elves are immune to all diseases, and they can recover from wounds which would normally kill a mortal Man. However, Elves can be slain, or die of grief and weariness.

Elves who die or are killed go to the Purgatory-like Halls of Mandos in Valinor. After a certain period of time and rest that serves as "cleansing", their spirits (fëar) are clothed in bodies (hröar) identical to their old ones.[5] They almost never go back to Middle-earth, however. The only Elf known to have done so was Glorfindel. A rare and more unique example of an Elf coming back from the Halls of Mandos can be read in the tale of Beren and Lúthien, as Lúthien was the other Elf to be sent back to Middle-earth - as a mortal, however.

Eventually, their immortal spirits (fëar) will overwhelm and consume their bodies (hröar), rendering them "bodiless", whether they opt to go to Valinor or remain in Middle-earth. At the end of the world, all Elves will have become invisible to mortal eyes, except to those to whom they wish to manifest themselves.[3] Tolkien called the Elves of Middle-earth who had undergone this process "Lingerers", and the process may be thought of as a fourth and final cycle of Elven life.

Back in the 70s the Simarillion didn't have all of this but it did have the descriptions of Elves resurrecting in Aman. So to explain the difference D&D came up with Elves have spirits and other races have souls.

Note the additional information comes from Tolkien's notes and rough draft which published in 12 volumes by his son.

I like the comment that the Elves would be more adventurous in spirit and life. With only one life to live and no hope for an afterlife would a community form and stay formed (i.e. civilization and nation-states)?

I  would argue that the Elves would become nomadic in nature always seeking that latest thrill. Since they are ageless, many wonders would become quickly mundane and looking for something new and shiny becomes important.

Just thoughts on Elven critters...

(I am referring to Elves in the Dragon Warriors game and not Tolkien Elves. The Elves in the Dragon Warriors game are based (I think) on the English Faerie Folk and lack a soul and spirit. I remember an illustration of a Dragon Warrior Elf in White Dwarf long time ago -- Very dark, very menacing and very evocative.)

Quote from: enelsonI do not want to talk about religion or pantheons or gods but about society. In particular if the elves of Dragon Warrior have no souls, then what is their society like? What would be the basis for their laws? Would their civilization be "alien"?

I'd base them on the aliens from Dark City - cold metaphysicians. Curious without compassion. Adventurous without joy.

Regards,
David R

Or you can call them free! Soul-ful beings, by definition, are bound to other planes and divine beings. Elves are purely of this world, unbound.