I thought this one deserved its own thread.
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/07/09/dungeons-dragons-adds-triggers-warnings-for-old-products/
QuoteIn a subsequent tweet they wrote, "This is an early step and not done in a vacuum. It's not enough to evaluate ourselves. As outlined in our original diversity statement, we're undergoing the process of reviewing our content and practices and hiring external consultants to review with us."
Quote from: Trond;1139304I thought this one deserved its own thread.
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/07/09/dungeons-dragons-adds-triggers-warnings-for-old-products/
One more thing that white males enjoy has been successfully conquered.
'External consultants'? Great so things go haywire down the road and the backlash builds, they can fob the blame off on a contractor. Good thinking!
Reminds me of this scene:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4650[/ATTACH]
Gonna copy over a post from another thread.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1138883If the problem is the people and not the game, then WotC wouldn't have to put a disclaimer in front of the books. Which is the entire point of this thread. And, by only putting this disclaimer on older versions of the game, they are stating that anyone who likes those older versions doesn't have a problem with "ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice" which is an attack on the OSR.
This is effectivley WOTC declaring "war" on TSR D&D and people who like it.
WTF are sensitivity readers? How does one actually make a career out of that? What kind of education does it require?
Quote from: 3rik;1139327WTF are sensitivity readers?
People who read your works (such as RPG books) for "problematic" content and offer ways to sanitize it in accordance with their ideology.
Quote from: 3rik;1139327How does one actually make a career out of that?
Swindle people into believing that their written works are "problematic" and that there is widespread social concern from "marginalized" groups about the presence of "offensive" and "harmful" material necessitating the submission of all written works to an external authority for review.
Quote from: 3rik;1139327What kind of education does it require?
Critical "Theory" ;)
Quote from: 3rik;1139327WTF are sensitivity readers?
They are basically communist censors, but lame. They are supposed to read stuff corresponding to their demographic (gay, black, autigender, etc.) and offer suggestions to improve the text and weed out or correct things which could be offensive. Employing sensitivity readers is increasingly mandatory at publishing houses.
Quote from: 3rik;1139327How does one actually make a career out of that?
It is more of a "gig economy" hustle than a career. Monetised twitter nitpicking for the quasi-unemployed, basically.
Quote from: 3rik;1139327What kind of education does it require?
Unlike OG communist censors - who were usually very learned men and women from the higher ranks of the cultural elite - the only qualifications are "belonging to a demographic" and "being part of the rainbow brigade" (obviously). They are nobodies, and their opinions are by and large worthless, or worse.
Quote from: 3rik;1139327WTF are sensitivity readers? How does one actually make a career out of that? What kind of education does it require?
This is where the thread heads into the culture war topic.
Quote from: 3rik;1139327WTF are sensitivity readers? How does one actually make a career out of that? What kind of education does it require?
That's a rabbit hole best discussed outside of the gaming forum
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1139335This is where the thread heads into the culture war topic.
Well, at least I made sure to mention RPG books in my reply as an example of stuff subjected to the whims of "sensitivity readers". :p
Well why support a company that clearly doesn't want many of you in "their community"?
/shrug.
It's abundantly clear that WOTC doesn't want their game to be compared to TSR and AD&D. They don't want to hear that all the updates and changes to the game haven't improved the game very much.
Quote from: Razor 007;1139358It's abundantly clear that WOTC doesn't want their game to be compared to TSR and AD&D. They don't want to hear that all the updates and changes to the game haven't improved the game very much.
It's abundantly clear YOU (and me, and others that disagree with them) are not *wanted* as customers. All of this stuff is just window-dressing to justify their real desires. So you either bend the knee and give them money in silence, and watch them crap all over their legacy material and it's player-base publicly, or you take your money elsewhere and let them do what they're going to do regardless of what you or I think they ought to do.
It's obvious they don't want to be compared to TSR. TSR is a stain on their ideology. But that's kinda obvious. They've drawn a line in the sand and you are on the wrong side of it. Just like me.
Quote from: tenbones;1139368It's abundantly clear YOU (and me, and others that disagree with them) are not *wanted* as customers. All of this stuff is just window-dressing to justify their real desires. So you either bend the knee and give them money in silence, and watch them crap all over their legacy material and it's player-base publicly, or you take your money elsewhere and let them do what they're going to do regardless of what you or I think they ought to do.
It's obvious they don't want to be compared to TSR. TSR is a stain on their ideology. But that's kinda obvious. They've drawn a line in the sand and you are on the wrong side of it. Just like me.
TSR was a flyover country business. WOTC is a West Coast business. That snobbery on the part of the latter goes all the way back to the LA SF fandom scene of the 1970s, and their reaction to OD&D. Jon Peterson chronicles those events well in Playing at the World.
Quote from: tenbones;1139348Well why support a company that clearly doesn't want many of you in "their community"?
/shrug.
Last stuff I bought from them was PoD of some old 2nd Edition stuff over a year ago, and I probably won't do that again. I could live with removing all the stuff with the WotC label on it from my D&D collection. :) (Not my broader RPG collection--I like the d20 Star Wars material too much--and I want to hold on to some of the things that were published with the TSR logo, so I'm rules-lawyering a bit. :) )
Between the old TSR stuff, the OSR, the third-party OGL material, and the vast array of other games, who needs WotC or Paizo? :)
Quote from: RandyB;1139370TSR was a flyover country business. WOTC is a West Coast business. That snobbery on the part of the latter goes all the way back to the LA SF fandom scene of the 1970s, and their reaction to OD&D. Jon Peterson chronicles those events well in Playing at the World.
Greetings!
Interesting, RandyB! What was their reaction to OD&D?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It is also clear that, from this point forward:
- nobody should be playing 5e anywhere (as doing so communicates to others that you still support WotC)
- nobody should be giving a dime to WotC (either print or PDF)
Quote from: SHARK;1139372Greetings!
Interesting, RandyB! What was their reaction to OD&D?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hey, SHARK!
As Peterson documents it, they were disdainful of the production values, typographical errors ("% liar"), cost, and overall tone of the original release. None of which prevented them from 1. pirating the game by distributing photocopies and 2. starting their own productions, including the now legendary Alarums and Excursions, to capitalize on the exploding popularity of D&D.
I highly recommend Playing at the World to anyone interested in the origins of our hobby. It is a good exercise of the historian's craft as applied to the topic.
It should be clear that, from this point forward:
- nobody should be seen playing 5e with their existing books (as doing so communicates to others continued support for WotC's game)
- nobody should give a dime to WotC
It should be clear that, from this point forward:
- nobody should be playing 5e with their existing books (as doing so communicates to others acceptance and support of WotC)
- nobody should give a dime to WotC (either print or PDF)
Adding Trigger Warnings to products could be a genius move if you are an up and coming game producer by making your things seem more forbidden and therefore more attractive to buy.
For a milk toast multinational however you want everything to be as unoffensive as possible.
Quote from: Trond;1139304I thought this one deserved its own thread.
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/07/09/dungeons-dragons-adds-triggers-warnings-for-old-products/
Glad I've got my hard-copies.
Quote from: Shasarak;1139384Adding Trigger Warnings to products could be a genius move if you are an up and coming game producer by making your things seem more forbidden and therefore more attractive to buy.
For a milk toast multinational however you want everything to be as unoffensive as possible.
This is also very different from the 90s "Parent Advisory Explicit Content" (PAEC) label in that this is a long brow beating apology tacitly admitting that their old products were apparently Klan propaganda while implicating the entirety of that era (and by extension people who lived through it) as an era of rampant bigotry that everyone now agrees was wrong. While PAEC was just this catchy logo they would stick into everything, almost to signal that there was some cool forbidden stuff hidden inside.
The PAEC label worked basically like a marketing scheme. The WotW* disclaimer is basically telling people "We were racist, DON'T buy our products. These are relics from a bigoted past, you racist."
*Wizards of the WOKE
Quote from: tenbones;1139348Well why support a company that clearly doesn't want many of you in "their community"?
Too many gamers yearn to be mainstream, and WotC/5e is the "pop music" of the hobby and social media is high school never ending. The cool kids in school all listen to the cool new music and those who aren't into the same music won't be accepted into the cool kids' club.
It's easy for me as I was a headbanger in high school and never gave a shit about mainstream anything, but conformity to the mainstream opinion / product / ideology seems to have become even more popular / required in recent decades.
But you're very right. Anyone expecting WotC to change for the better are walking into the same dead end as people hoping their abusive ex will change and love them again.
WotC is done with us and we're done with them. Fortunately, the RPG "dating scene" is absolutely overflowing with terrific options for fun.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1139371Between the old TSR stuff, the OSR, the third-party OGL material, and the vast array of other games, who needs WotC or Paizo? :)
Nobody.
Well, I guess we all feel safer now. :) Anyone up for some OSR/TSR D&D? :p I am thinking of an acid metal sword & planet world, with a disco soundtrack (just for you, Doc Sammy-kins!). :D
I feel like I'm disengaging from WoTC now the way I did with Paizo ca 7 years ago. There's a line, I'm pretty flexible, but I feel they've crossed it now. I'm not going to vow never to buy from them again, but I don't have any desire to do so. I certainly have a ton of stuff from them already (including 2 unused 5e APs and a ton of non-5e stuff easy to convert), and they're not producing anything new that grabs me.
I've been loving running 1e/OSRIC and Mini Six campaigns recently. Maybe now 5e is getting long in the tooth it's time to play those more. 1e especially has so much more depth than I used to realise - still finding odd bits in the DMG!
Quote from: tenbones;1139368It's obvious they don't want to be compared to TSR. TSR is a stain on their ideology. But that's kinda obvious. They've drawn a line in the sand and you are on the wrong side of it. Just like me.
This is just like the good old days. D&D and TSR was originally not good enough for most Americans, it was something the geeks played at, but no one else, because it was new, untested, and incomplete. Hollyweird put it down. The Bible thumpers put it down. No one really knew about it, and most people were too square, straight-laced, and sheeplike back then to engage in any kind of free thought. Looks like we are getting back to that, ...only this time, it's WOTC sponsoring the thought control.
There is a petition circulating asking WotC to remove the disclaimer.
https://www.change.org/p/company-wizards-com-wizards-of-the-coast-should-remove-the-disclaimer-statement-on-all-of-its-legacy-products
"This disclaimer makes a statement of fact argument, and therefore paints all of the writers, editors, artists and consumers of those products as supporting those prejudices, stereotypes and bigotry. This statement by Wizards of the Coast opens the possibility for the players of these "Legacy Products" to face ridicule, and face the labeling as "bigot", "racists", "misogynist", and worse."
And sure enough, I've seen some of the disclaimer-thumpers proving the petitioners right by calling them racist.
There is hardly any point in signing that petition because, even if they retract it, they are still the sample woke SJW company. They do not like you! You are a bigot (for objecting to Crawford and Mearls making D&D "more gay") and a racist (for continuing to allow yourself to be mired in the pre-5e cesspool of deplorableness)!
Any retraction would be insincere.
Forget WotC and spend your dollars elsewhere.
There is hardly any point in signing that petition because, even if they retract it, they are still the same woke SJW company. They do not like you! You are a bigot (for objecting to Crawford and Mearls making D&D "more gay") and a racist (for continuing to allow yourself to be mired in the pre-5e cesspool of deplorableness)!
Any retraction would be insincere.
Forget WotC and spend your dollars elsewhere.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1139454Well, I guess we all feel safer now. :) Anyone up for some OSR/TSR D&D? :p I am thinking of an acid metal sword & planet world, with a disco soundtrack (just for you, Doc Sammy-kins!). :D
YES!
Count me in.
There is hardly any point in signing that petition because, even if they retract it, they are still the same woke SJW company. They do not like you! You are a bigot (for objecting to Crawford and Mearls making D&D "more gay") and a racist (for continuing to allow yourself to be mired in the pre-5e cesspool of deplorableness)!
Any retraction would be insincere.
Forget WotC and spend your dollars elsewhere.
If there were a statue of Gary Gygax somewhere, they'd probably support tearing it down.
All new rpg products should come with bland pre-emptive aplogies and warnings to be ready for the next fashionable ideological shift in 10-20 years.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1139454Well, I guess we all feel safer now. :) Anyone up for some OSR/TSR D&D? :p I am thinking of an acid metal sword & planet world, with a disco soundtrack (just for you, Doc Sammy-kins!). :D
Hey man, I've chased you in like 4 threads now asking about this game. When are we playing? :D
I've never really had the desire to write an rpg, but lately I've been thinking that if I ever do, I absolutely will include a "diversity statement". It'll read:
"This game isn't here to pander to you or anyone else. We wrote it because we thought it was fun, and wanted to share it. If you feel that you need the text of a game to somehow take pains to make you feels safe, this game doesn't do that. No game, in truth, can do so. If you find something in this text you don't like or find offensive, your options are to ignore it and play on, or else to put the book away and never give it another look. While the offensive material was likely not intentional, we're not going to apologize to you or anyone else for it. So don't bother demanding one from us. Just be an adult and move along."
Quote from: 1989;1139377It should be clear that, from this point forward:
- nobody should be playing 5e with their existing books (as doing so communicates to others acceptance and support of WotC)
- nobody should give a dime to WotC (either print or PDF)
More that no one should be buying their new print runs where the books have been "fixed"
So anything over probably 12 is at risk now. 5 or 8 was I believe the last with any rules and typo fixes. Im not sure what run they are up to now. Probably 15 or so. We'll know pretty quick IF it happens.
Quote from: Shasarak;1139384Adding Trigger Warnings to products could be a genius move if you are an up and coming game producer by making your things seem more forbidden and therefore more attractive to buy.
For a milk toast multinational however you want everything to be as unoffensive as possible.
That could easily be what we are seeing as well. A marketing gag to drive sales. Create a scarcity panic. You can bet that it scared quite a few into buying that were on the fence before.
They've also put the disclaimer on Star Frontiers product pages.
I guess now the SATHAR represent poor oppressed blacks because they are stand ins for orcs who are stand ins for blacks! Oh and Yazirians are blacks too beccause they are space bats that might be space apes too and apes are stand-ins for blacks!
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1139508I've never really had the desire to write an rpg, but lately I've been thinking that if I ever do, I absolutely will include a "diversity statement". It'll read:
"This game isn't here to pander to you or anyone else. We wrote it because we thought it was fun, and wanted to share it. If you feel that you need the text of a game to somehow take pains to make you feels safe, this game doesn't do that. No game, in truth, can do so. If you find something in this text you don't like or find offensive, your options are to ignore it and play on, or else to put the book away and never give it another look. While the offensive material was likely not intentional, we're not going to apologize to you or anyone else for it. So don't bother demanding one from us. Just be an adult and move along."
I'd buy this just for the diversity statement......
Quote from: Omega;1139529They've also put the disclaimer on Star Frontiers product pages.
I guess now the SATHAR represent poor oppressed blacks because they are stand ins for orcs who are stand ins for blacks! Oh and Yazirians are blacks too beccause they are space bats that might be space apes too and apes are stand-ins for blacks!
I was hoping that you were joking, but nope. The disclaimer is there.....
Quote from: jeff37923;1139547I was hoping that you were joking, but nope. The disclaimer is there.....
Seems to be on EVERY TSR product - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16981/GAZ12-The-Golden-Khan-of-Ethengar-Basic
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16979/GAZ7-The-Northern-Reaches-Basic?src=also_purchased
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110198/Deities--Demigods-1e
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17009/Manual-of-the-Planes-1e?src=also_purchased
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/50012/Fiend-Folio-1e?src=also_purchased
and of course, but in the top spot,
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17334/Oriental-Adventures-1e?src=also_purchased
Not only TSR, but also:
3e era:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/148008/Players-Handbook-35?src=hottest_filtered
4e era:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/161671/Players-Handbook-4e
As I said, everything before 5e.
Holy blanket coverage on the extreme: The before-times before the 'enlightenment'?!
That's just ridiculous. I'm sure 5e will remain pure until 6e comes out and then they'll slap the sticker on 5e to direct sales towards their new product.
Such an obvious attempt at grovelling while trying to maintain a profit margin, it's kind of sad really.
So am I correct in thinking that if I were to buy a pod version of an old D&D book it'll be marred by this infuriating disclaimer?
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1139613Holy blanket coverage on the extreme: The before-times before the 'enlightenment'?!
That's just ridiculous. I'm sure 5e will remain pure until 6e comes out and then they'll slap the sticker on 5e to direct sales towards their new product.
Such an obvious attempt at grovelling while trying to maintain a profit margin, it's kind of sad really.
It's actually less bad that it's a blanket coverage. (At least for now).
By covering absolutely everything they're not making any concessions that any particular work is "problematic".
If they'd just put this on Oriental Adventures it would be an implicit concession that it was racist. This way there really isn't. (Thought it's possible that may come).
(Though it really would have been hilarious if they had put this disclaimer on every single product except OA).
I'm so glad that none of my books from across the editions have that lame, ignorant, puss-out statement in them.
Quote from: Mjollnir;1139644So am I correct in thinking that if I were to buy a pod version of an old D&D book it'll be marred by this infuriating disclaimer?
I'm not sure. I've seen the disclaimers on the product pages, but I haven't purchased any of the forbidden fruit. (I've already got a ton of the TSR PDFs)
Anybody bought a TSR product post-labeling?
Quote from: Mjollnir;1139644So am I correct in thinking that if I were to buy a pod version of an old D&D book it'll be marred by this infuriating disclaimer?
Far as we know the PDFs and PODs are not defiled with this... thing... yet.
If their statements are true then they may well be planning to edit and "fix" older edition material as dictated by their "sensitivity censors". Or that may only be with 5e and any print runs hereafter.
Quote from: Omega;1139652Far as we know the PDFs and PODs are not defiled with this... thing... yet.
If their statements are true then they may well be planning to edit and "fix" older edition material as dictated by their "sensitivity censors". Or that may only be with 5e and any print runs hereafter.
The latter. I can't imagine they're going to waste time going through their back catalog. Not even WOTC are going to throw that much money at grifters.
Quote from: TJS;1139653The latter. I can't imagine they're going to waste time going through their back catalog. Not even WOTC are going to throw that much money at grifters.
You underestimate WOTCs ability to throw money at grifters.
With WOTC failure is the only option. We knew this was coming since 5e was doing so well and theyd mended so many bridges with the fans and players. We knew sooner or later WOTC would some how, some way, fuck it up. Im just surprised it took them this long. But the minute parasites like Sarkesian and Quin got their claws in the door it was inevitable. WOTC had finally found its solution to that pesky success problem. (fake) Diversity!
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1139651I'm not sure. I've seen the disclaimers on the product pages, but I haven't purchased any of the forbidden fruit. (I've already got a ton of the TSR PDFs)
Anybody bought a TSR product post-labeling?
I grabbed the Premium POD versions of the four core books for AD&D1e the day the disclaimer went up.
Hoping that my hardcovers will dodge the bullet.
Not waiting till WOtC decides to expand on their ' business plans' any further.
I'll let you know as soon as they arrive.
[Edit] Just got the POD's, as unlike most of the products having a POD & POD-PDF purchase match, it was slightly less expensive as they are for my sons to use hopefully down the road if they are still allowed at that point by do-gooders. I don't want them to feel any shame in enjoying the classics, no matter how 'bad' WOtC decides they are.
This is all hilarious! Back in the 80s American gamers were dealing with the satanic ritual child abuse hysteria and were putting on disclaimers that
no actually this isn't real magic and you shouldn't try to do that, now it's another moral panic! America. LOL.
Let's put the transfurry SJWs in a room together with the evangelical Christians and a copy of the PHB and DMG and some dice and see what happens!
Quote from: Razor 007;1139358It's abundantly clear that WOTC doesn't want their game to be compared to TSR and AD&D. They don't want to hear that all the updates and changes to the game haven't improved the game very much.
Yep!
The only problem was that 'Satanic Panic' was largely regarded as a extreme fringe group movement by most of the populace.
Now with the charged language of the disclaimer and how kids are being educated to be extremely aware of these issues, will potentially change their opinion on a product before they've even cracked the book.
Kids are impressionable. My friends and I saw these 'Satanic Panic' warnings as something to laugh off as they were so absurd and pretty fanciful. This new disclaimer all but states that the entire statement is a truth except for one little 'may' stuck in there.
WOtC's attempt to try to pre-emptively judge the quality of the older material for a young reader, when even the arguments being made for this disclaimer in the first place are based on very conflicting opinions of its merit, can just f*ck right off.
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1139663The only problem was that 'Satanic Panic' was largely regarded as a extreme fringe group movement by most of the populace.
Now with the charged language of the disclaimer and how kids are being educated to be extremely aware of these issues, will potentially change their opinion on a product before they've even cracked the book.
The damage of the satanic panic was alot more wide spread than many realize due to its scattershot hit and miss. Just with my own little gaming group we had 3 incidents as fallout from that. And they were overall minor compared to what others suffered. Police were being taught to look for D&D books as "evidence" even.
Quote from: Omega;1139672The damage of the satanic panic was alot more wide spread than many realize due to its scattershot hit and miss. Just with my own little gaming group we had 3 incidents as fallout from that. And they were overall minor compared to what others suffered. Police were being taught to look for D&D books as "evidence" even.
Wow, that's just crazy. Maybe the affect was less in Canada as our small playing groups were aware of the panic, but other than a quick question of the books' validity from someone's Mum because of a TV news story, it passed us by mostly. No wonder some older players have the past experience to realise what a bad idea disclaimers and feeding the paranoia has.
Most of us realise where this all goes, culminating in eventually damaging the hobby and fracturing the playerbase even further.
Guess younger players will have to learn the hard way, not experiencing it first hand. I won't be assisting them get there any faster though.
There's one MASSIVE difference between this stuff and the Satanic Panic...the latter was spawned from a legitimate desire to protect children's souls from being corrupted by evil (no matter how ridiculous it seemed), the former is trying to assuage Marxists so they can destroy history.
It's literally misguided good intentions vs. pure evil.
The SJW intrusion into all aspects of our society, including our hobbies and tabletop gaming, is more insidious and pervasive than the Satanic Panic ever was or could be for a variety of reasons:
- The Satanic Panic was based around cooky religious ideas not even most Christians seriously subscribed to and were already in decline at the time it happened, as opposed to Intersectional ideas, which are in ascendancy.
- It happened before the age of the internet or widespread means of electronic publishing, relying on word of mouth and histrionic, sensationalistic documentaries to spread, without access to social media and online means of communication accessible to everyone 24/7, or easy ways to "correct" offending materials or editing them out of existence.
- Only Christians believed in the ideas that the Satanic Panic was based upon, while the vast majority of people across all religions or lack of them are susceptible to the idea of fighting "racism", "sexism" and other forms of prejudice and oppression.
- Fighting prejudice and oppression are inherently noble goals that do not require religious belief and most decent people will readily subscribe to, BUT...
- Most people are gullible, non-critical thinkers and do not question the claims that are presented to them (on ANY topic). They merely accept them on a surface level if they seem plausible enough, and if presented with the idea that some sort of bigoted prejudice exists somewhere and is being opposed, they will fight you tooth and nail if you oppose those efforts, even if that bigotry or prejudice isn't real: "Why would anyone be against fighting racism?!?"
So we're left with a situation where spreading this mind virus is easier than ever before and everyone is susceptible to it, while dealing with a gullible public willing to fight against its own interests because they don't even realize that none of this is real.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1139454Well, I guess we all feel safer now. :) Anyone up for some OSR/TSR D&D? :p I am thinking of an acid metal sword & planet world, with a disco soundtrack (just for you, Doc Sammy-kins!). :D
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1139497YES!
Count me in.
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1139506Hey man, I've chased you in like 4 threads now asking about this game. When are we playing? :D
Well shit, I better go or get off the pot. :o Alright, how about we merge my Talislanta 'GM Virginity' with this sword 'n planet disco fantasia? Hey, it has an acid haze about it and I'll be just as off-kilter as any players new to Talislanta, so we can all fumblebum like Chads Too Macho for the Dancefloor. :D Who's down for an awkward Play by Post here on the RPGSite? ;)
(Dear god, we might need one or two veterans to keep overwatch on our game all lest we explode in badwrongfun play... :p)
Quote from: VisionStorm;1139732The SJW intrusion into all aspects of our society, including our hobbies and tabletop gaming, is more insidious and pervasive than the Satanic Panic ever was or could be for a variety of reasons:
- The Satanic Panic was based around cooky religious ideas not even most Christians seriously subscribed to and were already in decline at the time it happened, as opposed to Intersectional ideas, which are in ascendancy.
- It happened before the age of the internet or widespread means of electronic publishing, relying on word of mouth and histrionic, sensationalistic documentaries to spread, without access to social media and online means of communication accessible to everyone 24/7, or easy ways to "correct" offending materials or editing them out of existence.
- Only Christians believed in the ideas that the Satanic Panic was based upon, while the vast majority of people across all religions or lack of them are susceptible to the idea of fighting "racism", "sexism" and other forms of prejudice and oppression.
- Fighting prejudice and oppression are inherently noble goals that do not require religious belief and most decent people will readily subscribe to, BUT...
- Most people are gullible, non-critical thinkers and do not question the claims that are presented to them (on ANY topic). They merely accept them on a surface level if they seem plausible enough, and if presented with the idea that some sort of bigoted prejudice exists somewhere and is being opposed, they will fight you tooth and nail if you oppose those efforts, even if that bigotry or prejudice isn't real: "Why would anyone be against fighting racism?!?"
So we're left with a situation where spreading this mind virus is easier than ever before and everyone is susceptible to it, while dealing with a gullible public willing to fight against its own interests because they don't even realize that none of this is real.
Exactly, and they are so intent on subverting all forms of entertainment and art because as someone more wise than me said:
Politics is downstream from culture!
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1139661This is all hilarious! Back in the 80s American gamers were dealing with the satanic ritual child abuse hysteria and were putting on disclaimers that no actually this isn't real magic and you shouldn't try to do that, now it's another moral panic! America. LOL.
Take your anti-American bias and stick up your ass. We didn't invent cancel culture. We imported it from Europe. And by "we imported" I means our most European like academics imported it.
It's only a bigger deal here because the USA is one of the few places left where people are still fighting it.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1139763We didn't invent cancel culture. We imported it from Europe. And by "we imported" I means our most European like academics imported it.
AFAICS it came out of US liberal arts colleges Humanities Departments. Continental European academic culture is quite different (Southern Europe is entirely different), and the rest of the Anglosphere just apes the USA. Rest-of-World still follows US fashion, esp media fashion.
I usually can read about the next crazy thing in the USA well before it hits the UK.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1139763Take your anti-American bias and stick up your ass. We didn't invent cancel culture. We imported it from Europe. And by "we imported" I means our most European like academics imported it.
It's only a bigger deal here because the USA is one of the few places left where people are still fighting it.
Sorry, but no.
I've been trying to track a bit of the public reaction here in Italy to the whole toppling statues etc. thing. And the nearly universal remark from newspapers of every political inclination has been "these guys are nuts".
And when Harper's letter got published, the other nearly universal reaction has been "thank God there's still someone left in the US with a working brain".
You see, we're Catholics. We don't do puritanism.
Which is why this whole thing is even more annoying for us. We get to see RPG products modified or removed from the shelves because of something going off on your side of the planet. The whole Paizo idea of having to apologize for copaganda would be utterly bollocks here...
I own a lot of the PDFs that now have this ridiculous disclaimer, so I downloaded a couple to check...In Search of Adventure PDF looks the same as before, as does 1st edition PHB and the Rules Cyclopedia. Wondering if they'll even bother editing the actual PDFs or not.
Interesting tidbit: The Dragonlance: Fifth Age products that were done using the SAGA Rules System lack this disclaimer, and so does the dual-statted The Sylvan Veil--but the also-dual-statted Rise of the Titans product has one!
I think I've worked out how they're coding this. Sylvan Veil is only in the general 'Dungeons & Dragons' category under Rules System, while Rise of the Titans is under D&D->Official D&D->2e (AD&D). I imagine that anything labelled "Official D&D" and not labelled '5E' gets hit with the Mark of the Unwoke. This also explains the odd product missing the disclaimer, such as Powers & Pantheons and Demihuman Deities for FR (but not Faiths & Avatars)--they aren't under the Official D&D category for some reason.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1139781Interesting tidbit: The Dragonlance: Fifth Age products that were done using the SAGA Rules System lack this disclaimer, and so does the dual-statted The Sylvan Veil--but the also-dual-statted Rise of the Titans product has one!
I think I've worked out how they're coding this. Sylvan Veil is only in the general 'Dungeons & Dragons' category under Rules System, while Rise of the Titans is under D&D->Official D&D->2e (AD&D). I imagine that anything labelled "Official D&D" and not labelled '5E' gets hit with the Mark of the Unwoke. This also explains the odd product missing the disclaimer, such as Powers & Pantheons and Demihuman Deities for FR (but not Faiths & Avatars)--they aren't under the Official D&D category for some reason.
Mark of Unwoke! hahah
Hand of Saruman!
Quote from: Brad;1139719There's one MASSIVE difference between this stuff and the Satanic Panic...the latter was spawned from a legitimate desire to protect children's souls from being corrupted by evil (no matter how ridiculous it seemed), the former is trying to assuage Marxists so they can destroy history.
It's literally misguided good intentions vs. pure evil.
Not quite. Pulling was off her rocker before her son died and afterwards blamed D&D rather than her own near abusive attitude pushing him to death. You should see her "instructions" for how police were to question people. All meant to corner them into this trap. And this thing was passed around various police departments. Same with grifters like Eagles Nest.
Ive never met a single one of these nuts who actually meant well.
Quote from: Omega;1139800Not quite. Pulling was off her rocker before her son died and afterwards blamed D&D rather than her own near abusive attitude pushing him to death. You should see her "instructions" for how police were to question people. All meant to corner them into this trap. And this thing was passed around various police departments. Same with grifters like Eagles Nest.
Ive never met a single one of these nuts who actually meant well.
Not talking about Pulling specifically; my mom bought into the whole thing and she honestly did NOT want me to become some sort of Satanist. I imagine a lot of other moms who were fooled by this nonsense thought the same thing.
Quote from: Brad;1139810Not talking about Pulling specifically; my mom bought into the whole thing and she honestly did NOT want me to become some sort of Satanist. I imagine a lot of other moms who were fooled by this nonsense thought the same thing.
My mom was curious what these games were all about, but the store owner handed her a handy pamphlet about how RPGs are good for kids in so many ways. Win!
Quote from: 1989;1139813My mom was curious what these games were all about, but the store owner handed her a handy pamphlet about how RPGs are good for kids in so many ways. Win!
The one by Mike Stackpole? He was long standing opponent of Pulling and her ilk and worked to counter the damage she was trying to cause.
Quote from: Omega;1139820The one by Mike Stackpole? He was long standing opponent of Pulling and her ilk and worked to counter the damage she was trying to cause.
That's a good question. I don't remember. I remember it was a black-and-white pamphlet and it said something about math skills. That was back in ... 1990.