So I just opened Youtube and had three brand new videos from three different channels talking about this Dungeon23 challenge. For those unfamiliar, apparently the idea is that you write one room of a megadungeon every day, for the entire upcoming year, with the end result of a 12-level, 365-room dungeon at the end of the year.
Here's Questing Beast's video on it, for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OR37nOMv1g
Has this blown up on anyone else's radar, and what ya'll think?
Personally, there's a megadungeon idea that's been stewing in my head for the last 3 or 4 years, since I played Dark Souls III and first got to Irythyll. I've been wanting to map out an entire abandoned city, something like Kadath in the Lovecraft mythos, as a mega-dungeon. My idea is that the city only appears once every 20 years or whatever, and when it does, adventurers, monsters and eldritch entities all rush to it in a mad dash to pillage whatever secrets lay inside. It's always been a pipe dream up till now, but I'm sorely tempted to use this challenge as an excuse to try and make good on the idea.
I saw a YouTube about it, but as soon as I heard the parameters I just said "why the heck would I put all that effort into designing a dungeon that would take at least a year to play through (30+ sessions even at twelves rooms per session) without an actual reason... particularly given that my players pretty much hate mega dungeons? (mainly because they tend to lack any sort of coherent narrative elements to unite the obscene number of rooms... themed 5-8 site* dungeons they can get through in 2-3 sessions is more their speed)."
My hunch is it's something WotC shat out onto the internet so they can then offer a token payment for something they think they'll be able to have an AI do the DMing for.
* in our parlance a "site" is a location where something interesting happens. It could be a single room, or a collection of rooms, or a clearing or crossroads. Empty rooms/stretches of trail just get glossed over. So a crossroads where hostiles from the castle pass, the secret dungeon entrance, a main dungeon chamber, the castle ward (including garrison) and the throne room might be the main sites of an adventure with notes for what would be found if they wanted to search the bedrooms/storerooms after the opponents have been cleared (or evaded) is a typical dungeon setup for an evening.
Personally, I prefer quality over quantity.
I think many GMs use a megadungeon primarly as a creative outlet, and not necessarily as something that will be used at the table.
Given the couple of responses, maybe the better question is "Does anyone actually use megadungeons, and how?"
I know the most traditional version of the megadungeon is a big structure full of monsters, with a village or town outside that players go back and forth from. I've personally never played in a game like that, and I could see why people generally don't structure campaigns that way, but has anyone tried running a campaign all within a single superstructure? Possibly something like an enclosed city or cave complex, where not only the traditional adventure locations, but the towns, friendly NPCs etc are all contained within?
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 02:56:33 PM
Given the couple of responses, maybe the better question is "Does anyone actually use megadungeons, and how?"
I know the most traditional version of the megadungeon is a big structure full of monsters, with a village or town outside that players go back and forth from. I've personally never played in a game like that, and I could see why people generally don't structure campaigns that way, but has anyone tried running a campaign all within a single superstructure? Possibly something like an enclosed city or cave complex, where not only the traditional adventure locations, but the towns, friendly NPCs etc are all contained within?
I built a very complex megadungeon, full of traps, torture rooms, and hidden doorways/viewing ports. I've had a TON of use out of it, luring in local co-ed's and...
Oh, in an Elfgame? Nah, never use them.
Greetings!
I've always enjoyed huge mega dungeons. I have used them often, throughout the years with different groups of players.
I can't say I'm that interested in the contest or whatever. I don't tend to work that way. I obsess and work on projects for days or weeks, or months, focused until the project is completed. Trying to fix it where you do a little bit every day is just *shrugs*. Just not the way I go about doing things. I suppose I am more ambitious and progress-driven. I like maximizing and getting big results.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 27, 2022, 11:45:12 PM
Personally, I prefer quality over quantity.
I agree. Grognardia had a post on the Dungeon23 and the accompanying screenshot from Sean McCoy appeared to be the most bare-bones room filling possible. Yes it makes it easier to make 365 rooms but if the rooms are garbage you can come up with in a minute is there any value? In the discussion one person linked to a twitter feed of a guy who tried the same thing a few years earlier (made it 5 months) and he put in a decent amount of effort on each room. That one had ideas you could loot from.
https://twitter.com/StooshieS/status/1477282106430705670?s=20&t=13krJDu0GV7PjLJ5lkPL6g
If everyone did it more or less like that. Say a decent room a week, then at the end we'd all have a library of amazing content to build up a mega dungeon with.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 03:03:53 PM
I built a very complex megadungeon, full of traps, torture rooms, and hidden doorways/viewing ports. I've had a TON of use out of it, luring in local co-ed's and...
Oh, in an Elfgame? Nah, never use them.
I was banned from Board Game Geek for a tamer comment than that.
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 27, 2022, 09:54:10 PM
So I just opened Youtube and had three brand new videos from three different channels talking about this Dungeon23 challenge. For those unfamiliar, apparently the idea is that you write one room of a megadungeon every day, for the entire upcoming year, with the end result of a 12-level, 365-room dungeon at the end of the year.
Here's Questing Beast's video on it, for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OR37nOMv1g
Has this blown up on anyone else's radar, and what ya'll think?
Personally, there's a megadungeon idea that's been stewing in my head for the last 3 or 4 years, since I played Dark Souls III and first got to Irythyll. I've been wanting to map out an entire abandoned city, something like Kadath in the Lovecraft mythos, as a mega-dungeon. My idea is that the city only appears once every 20 years or whatever, and when it does, adventurers, monsters and eldritch entities all rush to it in a mad dash to pillage whatever secrets lay inside. It's always been a pipe dream up till now, but I'm sorely tempted to use this challenge as an excuse to try and make good on the idea.
For those who think this is brilliant or worth taking up all the oxygen, forgive me. But I think this fad is the kind of half-baked lowest common denominator nonsense that keeps us lower beings, unfit for higher pursuits.
As long as I'm here... I also love megadungeons, both in theory and practice. For anyone wanting to see two examples of wildly different megadungeons, I recommend my own - The Black Pyramid and Cremza'amirikza'am, both located in
Cha'alt... my eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalyptic campaign setting.
Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 03:17:05 PM
Greetings!
I've always enjoyed huge mega dungeons. I have used them often, throughout the years with different groups of players.
I can't say I'm that interested in the contest or whatever. I don't tend to work that way. I obsess and work on projects for days or weeks, or months, focused until the project is completed. Trying to fix it where you do a little bit every day is just *shrugs*. Just not the way I go about doing things. I suppose I am more ambitious and progress-driven. I like maximizing and getting big results.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Im the same way, i like the idea though, but i dont thint this will produce a great mega dungeon.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on December 29, 2022, 09:48:49 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 03:03:53 PM
I built a very complex megadungeon, full of traps, torture rooms, and hidden doorways/viewing ports. I've had a TON of use out of it, luring in local co-ed's and...
Oh, in an Elfgame? Nah, never use them.
I was banned from Board Game Geek for a tamer comment than that.
Good thing this isn't a family friendly boardgame site then.
Board Game Geek also seems to have started attracting wokesters.
PS - Can you remember your comment?
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 03:03:53 PM
I built a very complex megadungeon, full of traps, torture rooms, and hidden doorways/viewing ports. I've had a TON of use out of it, luring in local co-ed's and...
Oh, in an Elfgame? Nah, never use them.
(https://media.tenor.com/G4c-lYbLPwMAAAAd/my-sides-achieved-orbit-laughing.gif)
On a serious note, a buddy of mine and I both plan on doing it, but putting enough effort into it that we both have something usable in the end. And we plan on holding each other accountable each day for the work. I think it'll be a great exercise to force myself to write a little each day; I think it'll help keep my creative juices flowing enough that it will spill over into the actual projects I'm working on. Neither of use are using those weird little Japanese date books, though. He's just using graph paper and notebook paper, while I'll be using a worksheet from the D30 Companion book. I've already printed up a bunch of pages and set aside a section in my campaign notebook for it, and have jumped the gun and done day one just to prime myself ("I've already started, I have to keep it up now").
(https://mithgarthr.com/images/Dungeon23%20-%20Room%201-3.jpg)
Quote from: Mithgarthr on December 29, 2022, 12:14:34 PM
On a serious note, a buddy of mine and I both plan on doing it, but putting enough effort into it that we both have something usable in the end. And we plan on holding each other accountable each day for the work. I think it'll be a great exercise to force myself to write a little each day; I think it'll help keep my creative juices flowing enough that it will spill over into the actual projects I'm working on. Neither of use are using those weird little Japanese date books, though. He's just using graph paper and notebook paper, while I'll be using a worksheet from the D30 Companion book. I've already printed up a bunch of pages and set aside a section in my campaign notebook for it, and have jumped the gun and done day one just to prime myself ("I've already started, I have to keep it up now").
That bit about having a useful product out the back end is probably the key point here. I agree with a lot of people that if you just create a random dungeon room every day for a year, and then stitch them all together, you're probably just producing an unusable mess.
I haven't really committed myself on doing this, but the reason that it jumped out to me is that the project idea fits into a number of factors specific to my own circumstances.
1. I have a very specific campaign idea I've wanted to try, which not only would work as a megadungeon, but might only work as a one.
2. I have an ongoing campaign, and another one lined up that I'll probably run next, so this project would otherwise probably sit in the "might do later" pile indefinitely.
3. my work/life schedule is structured in such a way that I frequently have 10-30 minute blocks where I'm sitting around (often in my car) with nothing to do. Jotting down a dungeon room or two in a notebook would be a perfect way to constructively fill that time.
4. Due to life circumstances, I will probably be forced to end my ongoing campaigns for several months in mid-2024, so if I spend a year on this, and then a few months polishing it up and making it playable, I could be in the position of having it good to go right when I'm ready to start DM-ing again.
Not trying to say I'm special, or these are the only reasons someone might do this. Just illustrating a possible circumstance where it might make sense.
Also, those Dungeon worksheets are kind of cool. Might have to get that.
I personally don't like megadungeons, I prefer games that are more focused on politics and interpersonal relationships than purely exploring spaces and combat within spaces.
I would think it would be interesting to have a collaboratively created space / adventure where someone could create a room/location, NPC, item, or whatever, and then the next person in the thread could come up with their own thing and theoretically all of the stuff links together at the end. Someone would need to volunteer as editor and final-say-giver though.
Quote from: Zelen on December 29, 2022, 06:24:34 PM
I personally don't like megadungeons, I prefer games that are more focused on politics and interpersonal relationships than purely exploring spaces and combat within spaces.
I would think it would be interesting to have a collaboratively created space / adventure where someone could create a room/location, NPC, item, or whatever, and then the next person in the thread could come up with their own thing and theoretically all of the stuff links together at the end. Someone would need to volunteer as editor and final-say-giver though.
Such things exist. In fact, I've participated in a couple of those... something like Halls of the Blue Barron or something like that. Everyone got to pick a room and then the editor tried his best to pull everything together.
Also, if you (not just you, obviously, but everyone) aren't putting politics and interpersonal relationships in your dungeons (mega or otherwise), you're doing it wrong. ;)
It's on my radar and could be interesting. I think you need to plan a bit. One approach might be M-F is random stocking per Book 3 or its descendants with Saturday reserved for MAR Barker's Saturday Night Specials at the center of the M-F arrangement with Sundays open.
That would give you 4 specials per level (or 5) with randomly filled connecting areas.
I would also plan to put it into play no later than April and earlier if possible, although that might mean starting lower levels early.
I plan on doing it in the same way that Tenkar is doing it: Write a RPGTHING* a day for 365 days. I also have a buddy who we share a campaign world with.
*RPGTHING:
1. Person -NPC with a story and some backgroun
2. Place - Dungeon room, island, castle, hotel, etc.
3. Item - Magical Item or mcguffin
4. Faction - Flesh out the organizations in my world some more to list out more "Who's Who"
5. Anything Else RPG Related I Need.
Basically not limiting myself to a megadungeon and understanding this is a Journaling Project that is focused on RPG's. I may float around to working on my 4000+ room, 10 level delve megadungeon or an island in the main archipeligo for the main game. I want options and this works for me. T
Quote from: Cathode Ray on December 29, 2022, 09:48:49 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 03:03:53 PM
I built a very complex megadungeon, full of traps, torture rooms, and hidden doorways/viewing ports. I've had a TON of use out of it, luring in local co-ed's and...
Oh, in an Elfgame? Nah, never use them.
I was banned from Board Game Geek for a tamer comment than that.
Not surprising considering how much they detest RPGs and keep taking on staff who feel the same.
No.
I don't need a challenge to make a dungeon.
Actually, I don't even use dungeons. That trope is not how I game. My PCs are sent to go deal with problems, so this is pointless.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 31, 2022, 08:04:21 AM
No.
I don't need a challenge to make a dungeon.
Actually, I don't even use dungeons. That trope is not how I game. My PCs are sent to go deal with problems, so this is pointless.
Pretty much my experience as well. Players explore ruins or invade an enemy fortress or camping for a specific purpose.
There is a structure in my world that would qualify as a megadungeon to end all megadungeons, but it's specifically a place that warps and changes at random so any given adventure there would only ever encounter small fractions of the whole and the concept of even trying to map it would be ludicrous. If not for it being the resting place of the world's equivalent of The Spear of Destiny, no one would even risk it and only the worthy will likely even glimpse it as the tower warps the path towards whatever will most test the virtues and tempt the vices of those seeking it.
In other words, it's not really a megadungeon, it's a place for a GM to run a highly personalized series of encounters and tests for the PCs (and even if they succeed the reward might not be the actual Spear, but some other treasure or a powerful vision or answer to some other trouble they face).
An actual mapped out megadungeon? Sounds boring as heck.
Well, the first week of the year has come to close so I thought I'd share what I've done so far.
I still need to do the outdoor encounters, and finish the rumor table (which is hard to do until I have more room written), but the setup's there otherwise.
https://mithgarthr.com/Dungeon23/The%20Dreadful%20Dungeons%20of%20Dryun%20Swansig%20-%20Week%20One.pdf
Quote from: Mithgarthr on January 07, 2023, 07:38:50 PM
https://mithgarthr.com/Dungeon23/The%20Dreadful%20Dungeons%20of%20Dryun%20Swansig%20-%20Week%20One.pdf
Love the goblin image near the end.
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 07, 2023, 07:41:56 PM
Quote from: Mithgarthr on January 07, 2023, 07:38:50 PM
https://mithgarthr.com/Dungeon23/The%20Dreadful%20Dungeons%20of%20Dryun%20Swansig%20-%20Week%20One.pdf
Love the goblin image near the end.
Oh, I'm glad you pointed that out because it made me realized I forgot to credit it, haha. Fixed the PDF; that's Rick Hershey/Fat Goblin Games' stock art.
First week in and i have an island thats populated with an abandoned city, 12 districts, 4 factions, an enemy party, and the mcguffin.
ChatGPT is amazing and i have enough AI art to go with it. I have 11 islands more to complete and thats gives me all 12 months done.
I like megadungeons but I don't much like writing them. When I use one the idea isn't to clear an area, but to follow a path through it, choosing among real alternatives. I think the draw for me is that a lot of different things can happen, not just the handful I think would be best for the party, depending on which way they choose to go. If I'm writing one, on the other hand, I'm spending time on a lot of content that will never be seen. Writing a megadungeon makes a lot more sense for something used by many people, as chances are that about everything will be seen by someone.
Quote from: Mithgarthr on January 07, 2023, 07:38:50 PM
Well, the first week of the year has come to close so I thought I'd share what I've done so far.
I still need to do the outdoor encounters, and finish the rumor table (which is hard to do until I have more room written), but the setup's there otherwise.
https://mithgarthr.com/Dungeon23/The%20Dreadful%20Dungeons%20of%20Dryun%20Swansig%20-%20Week%20One.pdf
Outstanding. Cannot wait to see how big this gets (if you keep providing updates).
Quote from: FingerRod on January 07, 2023, 09:50:58 PM
Quote from: Mithgarthr on January 07, 2023, 07:38:50 PM
Well, the first week of the year has come to close so I thought I'd share what I've done so far.
I still need to do the outdoor encounters, and finish the rumor table (which is hard to do until I have more room written), but the setup's there otherwise.
https://mithgarthr.com/Dungeon23/The%20Dreadful%20Dungeons%20of%20Dryun%20Swansig%20-%20Week%20One.pdf
Outstanding. Cannot wait to see how big this gets (if you keep providing updates).
Here in week two, things have changed up just a bit... after the whole OGL debacle, I've made the switch from playing and writing for BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia to playing/writing for Castles and Crusades. Adventure-wise, this only slightly altered the monster stat blocks, and you'll find Challenge Levels added to the traps/door locks/etc.
https://www.mithgarthr.com/Dungeon23/The%20Dreadful%20Dungeons%20of%20Dryun%20Swansig%20-%20Week%20Two.pdf
My big hope is that the OGL 1.1 results in a more unified OGL statblock so adjustments don't have to be made. Statblocks use the same info (AC differs a bit but that can be worked with) and the order of the info.
Quote from: Mishihari on January 07, 2023, 09:28:55 PM
I like megadungeons but I don't much like writing them. When I use one the idea isn't to clear an area, but to follow a path through it, choosing among real alternatives. I think the draw for me is that a lot of different things can happen, not just the handful I think would be best for the party, depending on which way they choose to go. If I'm writing one, on the other hand, I'm spending time on a lot of content that will never be seen. Writing a megadungeon makes a lot more sense for something used by many people, as chances are that about everything will be seen by someone.
I like the *idea* of mega-dungeons, but the rational thinker in me recognizes that there pretty much impossible to build even in a fantasy realm.
It couldn't be built quickly enough to happen in a single lifetime - no evil overlord wants to wait until they're past their prime to be able to use it. Even with magic doing the actual building do you know how many code inspectors you'd have to bribe? Not to mention the zombie construction workers - you'll be having a guild beef if you don't give them enough no-show jobs and grease the palms of the local guild stewards..
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 03:03:53 PM
I built a very complex megadungeon, full of traps, torture rooms, and hidden doorways/viewing ports. I've had a TON of use out of it, luring in local co-ed's and...
Me too! I have the co-ed's painting my miniatures. It's the only practical way to get them done.
I've been running Barrow Maze since August.
12 sessions so far and the party hasn't even finished 10% of it.
Week Three: https://mithgarthr.com/Dungeon23/The%20Dreadful%20Dungeons%20of%20Dryun%20Swansig%20-%20Week%20Three.pdf
Chatgpt is throwing up search limits now making an hr long "conversation" with the AI take a day. I have finished statting up almost 1 full dungeon with enemies and treasure. Almost came in handy last night as the PCs zigged when they should have zagged on their survival checks. Went from looking for shipwrecked survivors to fighting venomous snake spiders and uncovering The Sunken Temple at an abandoned lake side camp. Thankfully they did not explore any more and again wandered off in the wrong direction (their navigator is terrible at his rolls) and was caught in the crossfire between gatorfolk vs trolls in a territorial dispute.
A megadungeon needs a committed group and a committed GM. One without the other results in a failed campaign after a few sessions.
In my experience, megadungeons work better for video games than at the game table.
As with any campaign, talk to your players upfront and get serious buy-in before doing the insane amount of work to create the megadungeon.
Personally, I think 6 levels with 20 areas per level is all you need to run a 6 month campaign of weekly 4 hour sessions and that would be a reasonable amount of work for a reasonable campaign attention length for the modern game table.
Or 12 levels with 10 areas each if you want to go deeper, but still run a 1st to 10th level campaign where the players feel they are making progress.
And when I say "areas", I mean meaningful zones, not empty rooms for spacing / travel / wanderers.
For my last megadungeon, I ran Tunnels & Trolls and did 6 levels with 6 zones each and we played about a dozen sessions to clear it out and face the Boss monster (who ate the party).
Month one complete: https://mithgarthr.com/Dungeon23/The%20Dreadful%20Dungeons%20of%20Dryun%20Swansig%20-%20Month%20One.pdf
January Status Update:
I completed the following:
1. Backstory Plot: Minotaur island of Labyrinthia is complete with history and lore
2. Major Forces: Created multiple NPC groups and factions with history and AI Generated art.
3. Districts of Labyrinthia: Created 12 unique districts with Points of Interest, plot points, and monsters/NPC's
4. The McGuffin: Created the McGuffin for the PC's to find split amongst multiple districts with a race against time subplot built in.
All in all a successful january for creativity, ChatGPT, and Stable Diffusion.