Quote from: Windjammer;368942Now that I like. I don't like pre-gens since people don't have a sense of investment in them. But letting them roll up a random character strikes me as a refreshing break from inviting players to optimize their selected class with point buy stats and all the rest I've come to loathe.

That said, it's entirely possible that Goodman used random class+race selection as a device for a one-shot test drive.

I specifically asked Goodman about that and his response was something like "of course it will be in the rulebook".

Quote from: Silverlion;368951Interesting, but what will make it stand out from S&W, S&S, OSRIC, LL, etc, etc?

Market penetration.

Same reasoning for my game I'll have out this summer. None of the clones are available in Finnish stores so the Finnish stores won't carry my modules (which are OSRIC/LL/S&W compatible). I make my own game, stores carry the game and my modules without worrying about the other company's distribution status or popularity.

(and I've got distributors ready and waiting for the game to be out in both Finland and North America, so...)

I'm working hard to make sure it's not a total retread, but that's a personal pride thing. I really don't have to in order to accomplish the basic goal of getting my stuff in the stores.

Quote from: Melan;368953More substantially, we have enough systems already, and it is wasting time better used for doing something that's less rote and more "wow". I am not trying to stop anyone, though, and if Joe can reach a large audience without prior old school (maybe even gaming) experience, then I will say he is a goddamn genius.

That about sums it up for me too. I already think we honestly have too many variants out there. There is no incentive for me, personally, to go for a Labyrinth Lords when I have an OSRIC and a Swords & Wizardry on my coffee table already.

If, however, Joe can get people who'd never have gone for a retroclone to embrace old school style play via market penetration, it's awesome. And who knows? There might be some stuff to steal for my campaign out of this game.

Benoist: to continue this string of thought, I believe it is worth doing if it reaches an audience outside the current one. For example, let's take Kard és Mágia, my d20 Light game: makes sense for the Hungarian audience, since old school play and even rules light gaming was a pretty foreign thought among them (plus there are no intro games in print either). Doesn't make sense for people who already own seven other variants in PDF and print - sure it's cool and has advantages the others don't*, but let's not be kidding, it's the same paradigm all over again. Likewise, if Pundit can get FtA into Latin-American distribution and JimLotFP his system to Finnish players, that's a win. If it is Tom and Kate Oldschool getting a new book they will never use, it is a futile effort at this stage of game development.

* For example, while old school, it is probably the only similar system that comes from the standpoint that "you know, core d20 is actually a damn good system once you strip away the noise" - I wonder why that idea was never picked up by others.

Quote from: Silverlion;368951More Old School?

Interesting, but what will make it stand out from S&W, S&S, OSRIC, LL, etc, etc?


Getting my players to play old school varies. Though random rolling everything is NOT a good way to do it for them.

I find it an interesting market reaction.  And with all the versions you mention, Since I consider them a somewhat savvy company, I believe they are going to make their game as good as they can, but are more creating a 'goodman-specific' platform for a line of aids that they KNOW will be easily translateable to a growning number of games.  Good for them.

[Reposted from today's Gameblog entry.]

I've had a couple more requests for further info on the Dungeon Crawl Classics rpg that Joe Goodman has been playtesting at some cons.  Below's a list of what I know.  Keep in mind that I played one session with zero level characters, so my experience with this game is limited.  Also, DCC-rpg is due out in 2011 and still in early draft form, so what I say here may not be true of the final game.

• Roll 3d6 in order for six stats: Strength, Agility, Stamina, Intelligence, Personality, Luck
• Stat bonuses work as in 3.x: +1 for 12-13, +2 for 14-15, +3 for 16-17, etc.
• Strength modifies melee attacks and damage.
• Agility modifies missile attacks (and damage?  I'm not sure), intiative, Armor Class and Reflex saves
• Stamina modifies hit points and Fort saves
• Intelligence modifies spell casting rolls (see Sunday's post for how that works) and Will saves
• We didn't really talk to any NPCs, so I don't know how Personality works
• Luck is weird.  What it modfies is determined by a separate d8 roll.  I ended up with my Luck modifying all damage rolles.  Other guys got mods to saves and to-hits.  Also, Goodman noted that Luck is subject to alteration much moreso than other stats.
• Most operations are d20 throws.
• AC is ascending, base 10.  Scale mail is +4 AC, chain +5.
• Weapon damage seems pretty much like you'd expect.  A battleaxe does d8, a spear does d6, etc.
• The chart for randomly assigning race, profession and starting equipment to zero level characters is supposed to appear in the final product.
• Not much of a skill system.  Your class and/or occupation broadly cover what you can do.
• The charsheet has fields for "Actions" and "Weapon Proficiencies" but neither came up in play so I don't know what they do.
• Ninefold alignment.
• There are classes, but I couldn't really tell you what they are, since it was a zero-level game.

Although this game is clearly in the same Old School/d20 Hybrid camp as both C&C and Basic Fantasy, I found myself digging this game more than those systems.  But I've not had a real opportunity to play either of those, so a straight comparison can't be made.

Quote from: Melan;368966Benoist: to continue this string of thought, I believe it is worth doing if it reaches an audience outside the current one. For example, let's take Kard és Mágia, my d20 Light game: makes sense for the Hungarian audience, since old school play and even rules light gaming was a pretty foreign thought among them (plus there are no intro games in print either). Doesn't make sense for people who already own seven other variants in PDF and print - sure it's cool and has advantages the others don't*, but let's not be kidding, it's the same paradigm all over again. Likewise, if Pundit can get FtA into Latin-American distribution and JimLotFP his system to Finnish players, that's a win. If it is Tom and Kate Oldschool getting a new book they will never use, it is a futile effort at this stage of game development.

Oh absolutely. When you have the occasion to reach a particular audience with an edge that no other existing game has, it completely makes sense to market your own.

Note that when I'm saying there are too many variants already, I'm talking about full games with each their specific audiences and the development that goes along with it. I'm not talking about particular rules variants on a single game, like say OD&D/Swords & Wizardry and the some of its supplements approach the notion of setting with a bunch of specific "house rules" - Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Carcosa and Majestic Wilderlands come to mind, here. That, to me, expands on an already existing game audience. It doesn't fragment it, unless one of the variants becomes "official" to the detriment of other variants, as was the case with further development of AD&D, Unearthed Arcana et al. It just adds to the richness and ultimate versatility of the experience by providing more tools and sources of inspiration for its users.

Quote from: Melan;368966* For example, while old school, it is probably the only similar system that comes from the standpoint that "you know, core d20 is actually a damn good system once you strip away the noise" - I wonder why that idea was never picked up by others.

Microlite to some extent? Maybe the fact that a game like S&W incorporates Ascending AC is kind of a recognition that "yes, for some players, indeed d20 did something right"? See also various types of skill resolution systems for old school games popping up in various published supplements, blogs, etc. It may not be politically correct to admit it in some old school circles, but d20 did indeed do some things very right.

I played in a playtest that Joseph ran on Thursday night - we had seven or eight players and rolled up 3 PC's each, and a few hours later we were all dead! It was good fun and Joe said it was the first TPK he'd had - "normally only half the party dies".

Things I think are selling points (although I agree that it doesn't have to convince outsiders to switch so much as it has to bring the large Dungeon Crawl Classics fanbase from liking a 3E sorta-emulation of an old-school approach to playing something specifically designed not to get in the way of old-school play):

- Random generation of your class/race package (with like a d100 worth of flavorful results like "halfling gypsy" and "trapper") and starting equipment, including weapons - I rolled up a noble and it really defined him that he had a longsword when everyone else had slings. Lots of old-school gamers have clued in that rolling this kind of random starting stuff is much more awesome than choosing from a big list (thanks in large part to Jeff's Gameblog), but I haven't seen a system that makes this a default part of the rules.

- A focus on growing through play rather than the 3E/4E mania for mapping out your build 20 levels in advance. We started out with zero level characters, so we didn't even have classes per se - no spells, etc. This part delivered on the flyer's promise about "you're not a hero".

- Strong module support. The DCC name is known for a line of adventures, and it's cool to see a ruleset designed specifically to enable a particular kind of published module. (That's not everyone's thing, of course, but if not you've got a zillion other systems that are generic). The style of the adventure Joe ran was very deathtrap puzzle - much like the Metamorphosis Alpha game that Jim Ward ran. For all the attention sandboxes get these days I think this is a historically important, once-common, and entertaining kind of old-school play, so having a system devoted to it is cool.

The system is a stripped-down d20 - when Joe explained that you get more abilities from your class/background/race as you level up, but there are no feats someone joked "Oh, so it's like d20 without all the cool stuff," which we said should be the marketing tagline. There are a few d20isms that got in the way of the old-school, but I think those might get smoothed off in playtest; Joe seemed to get it when I explained why relying on Spot checks is less old-school than Gygax's player-skill-based approach in Tomb of Horrors: "describe that the cavern roof is shaking, and if a player hasn't told you that they're getting out of there by the time you silently count to 10, kill their PC".

Quote from: Tavis;368982Joe seemed to get it when I explained why relying on Spot checks is less old-school than Gygax's player-skill-based approach in Tomb of Horrors: "describe that the cavern roof is shaking, and if a player hasn't told you that they're getting out of there by the time you silently count to 10, kill their PC".

Oh... Yeah...

Quote from: jrients;368971

• The charsheet has fields for "Actions" and "Weapon Proficiencies" but neither came up in play so I don't know what they do.

Jeff, looking at the scanned character sheet on your blog:



it seems to me that Goodman used the simplified d20 char sheet he's been using to run his DCC modules at conventions for years. Meaning, perhaps what he used on the testdrive isn't anything specifically created for his upcoming RPG, but just recycling stuff that came in handy for him. (Edit - oh no, it rather looks like he specifically updated the old sheet to make room for "Actions" and Weapon Proficiencies". My bad.)

PS. I've consulted Goodman's DCC char sheet recently for my own spin ona simplified d20 char sheet (sampel character).

PPS. Loved it that Goodman makes "stats: roll 3d6 in order" part of the system.

Quote from: Tavis;368982"describe that the cavern roof is shaking, and if a player hasn't told you that they're getting out of there by the time you silently count to 10, kill their PC".

In fairness to Gygax, when I played with him (not TOH, but the Tomb of Rahotep portion of Necropolis, which is the next best thing) and he did the "count to 10 and then kill everybody" thing he did it out loud, not silently:

GYGAX: The cavern roof is shaking and dust is sprinkling down in the torchlight. 1 ... 2

PLAYER 1: Why are you counting?

GYGAX (slight evil grin beginning to form): 3 ... 4

ALL PLAYERS: Oh shit! Run away! Run away!

GYGAX (mock-ruefully): Aww, that one never works anymore!

Quote from: T. Foster;368992In fairness to Gygax, when I played with him (not TOH, but the Tomb of Rahotep portion of Necropolis, which is the next best thing) and he did the "count to 10 and then kill everybody" thing he did it out loud, not silently:

GYGAX: The cavern roof is shaking and dust is sprinkling down in the torchlight. 1 ... 2

PLAYER 1: Why are you counting?

GYGAX (slight evil grin beginning to form): 3 ... 4

ALL PLAYERS: Oh shit! Run away! Run away!

GYGAX (mock-ruefully): Aww, that one never works anymore!

Sounds awesome. Also, inspiring...

Quote from: T. Foster;368992In fairness to Gygax, when I played with him (not TOH, but the Tomb of Rahotep portion of Necropolis, which is the next best thing) and he did the "count to 10 and then kill everybody" thing he did it out loud, not silently:

That could also be a difference between the idol and the man: one pure, the other a collection of nuances and glorious compromises.

Purity is an invention of the Forge and, in more general terms, all those who are afraid of the openness of existance itself. They create thought systems  to close any gap or omission, out of primal fear.
The root of totalitarism.

Quote from: Settembrini;368996Purity is an invention of the Forge and, in more general terms, all those who are afraid of the openness of existance itself. They create thought systems  to close any gap or omission, out of primal fear.
The root of totalitarism.

...Um, what? The rest of us are talking about old school gaming.