Yes there are lots of RPG's that are obviously influenced by Dune in varous amounts, but Dune itself has always been a clusterfuck of a license. It might be one of my favorite fictional series of all time, but I'm wondering if it would actually work with broad appeal as an RPG?
With Star Wars it's a no-brainer. But Dune, even with its fantastic elements (Mentats, Fish-Speakers, Fremen, Sardaukar, Bene Gesserit, Gholas etc.) has an entirely different set of conceits that outside of the fictional main storyline would require a lot of infrastructure (that does exist via the Encyclopedia) to be introduced as playable.
So without introducing other elements (as many of the RPG's Dune has influenced have done) how would you handle it? Is it even viable within its own context? Or is it a heartbreaker RPG concept that needs "other stuff" to make it more accessible for the average player?
And if it matters - what system would you use?
Given the source material, I would focus on presenting Arrakis as place to adventure in and only give brief mention of the wider galaxy. If that well received then I would focus on similar sourcebooks for other aspect of the Dune setting. The last Dune RPG I had focused a lot on the noble houses and their intrigues.
Come to think of it, I wonder where I put that Dune RPG? I don't recall selling it or giving it away. I tried too at Origins one year but didn't get the price I was looking for. I will have to look around at home tonight.
I would start with classic traveller (i.e., pre-3rd imperium as a default setting, perhaps folding in a few technical details from later books) and work from there. The system itself is well engineered and doesn't really need to be fixed or expanded to deal with basic game play issues, and the central conceits of the game system - the existence of noble houses, military types, key importance of merchants and trade, mix of swords and laser guns, existence of psi powers, etc. - are in keeping with the setting. Really, you could reduce your pre-play work to the meat of the setting - npc's, planets, etc. - plus a couple of house rules to deal with shield technologies and the specific psi powers of navigators and spice users. I'd much rather do this than spend a year writing yet another fucking novel game system that no one will really play.
I love (most of) Dune*, so I have some things to say about this but I need time to get it all together in my head. First blush, I think you could pull it off well. It would need some big changes on the formula (though nothing that hasn't been done before I don't think). Maybe something more Pendragon or Ars Magica-ish? That's a tough one. Maybe I just want the answer to be yes. I'll think on it.
*Brian Herbert and Keven J. Anderson can go to hell. They can go to hell and they can die.
Quote from: Michael Gray;943772*Brian Herbert and Keven J. Anderson can go to hell. They can go to hell and they can die.
(http://i.imgur.com/YJxrjbN.jpg)
I'm with you on that. So for sake of discussion - let's keep it only with Frank's work. heh.
Quote from: LarsdanglyI would start with classic traveller (i.e., pre-3rd imperium as a default setting, perhaps folding in a few technical details from later books) and work from there. The system itself is well engineered and doesn't really need to be fixed or expanded to deal with basic game play issues, and the central conceits of the game system - the existence of noble houses, military types, key importance of merchants and trade, mix of swords and laser guns, existence of psi powers, etc. - are in keeping with the setting. Really, you could reduce your pre-play work to the meat of the setting - npc's, planets, etc. - plus a couple of house rules to deal with shield technologies and the specific psi powers of navigators and spice users. I'd much rather do this than spend a year writing yet another fucking novel game system that no one will really play.
This is really where the rubber hits the road, isn't it? The conflicts of the setting pre-Paul are essentially just intra-house intrigue and rarely naked warfare. By design - the conceits of the books are tightly controlled for narrative purposes with the Landsraad and the Spacing Guild being these background justifications that prevent wholesale intergalactic war. It's beautifully setup for the purposes of writing fiction - but in terms of doing an RPG... they're straightjackets for some campaign concepts.
The other obvious question is - the Primary Storyline. Are the PC's in it, can they change it? Do they replace it? All of which is on the table. A *lot* of the special stuff about Dune are occluded away on purpose - Mentats, Bene Gesserit for instance serve nobles, but they're not necessarily allies (of course this is hand-waved as necessary) - but when push comes to shove - these individuals serve extremely tight-knit organizations. Hell having a Bene Gesseritt go rogue is one of the great issues with Lady Jessica. Had she not spawned the Kwisatz Haderach (spoiler-alert for those that have been under a rock for the last 40+ years), she might have gotten whacked.
One of the concerns is bringing the PC's together without sacrificing the "cool shit" and not making everyone too snowflakey. I dunno if that makes sense?
Dune as a setting is pretty difficult because it's hard to imagine the Firefly Crew doing much there. Basically look at 40k, the same problem. Unless you go micro-scale and stick to a single planet, or single system then you're getting involved with The Powers That Be. At that point, once you go large, you have to do Epic Zen Handwaving, Extreme Narrative Minigames, or 4th-dimensional Harnmanor to make sense of it.
Once you get a Patron of some sort, or assume a setup as independent Freelancers/Troubleshooters/Mercs/Shadowrunners, then things could get easier as you shift to a more episodic, mission-based campaign. But the small scale Free Trader role is harder to place in the setting, which is kind of player's go-to mindset for Sci-Fi.
Yeah I looked around to see if anyone had come up with a hack for the setting. I've heard Fading Suns is basically Dune with the serial numbers filed off and is on sale on Bundle of Holding right now. I picked it up.
Could be tricky as the part I love the most about Dune is all the strange stuff with the Mentats, Bene Gesseritt, Spacing Guild, etc. But that is more about intrigue as opposed to adventure and RPGs have issues pulling off intrigue in my experience. One could just make it all about being part of the resistance on Dune against the Harkonnens but that feels like it would be losing most of what makes the setting so interesting and odd.
I know Amber is pretty intrigue heavy so perhaps that could be hacked for the setting?
How was the one official release for Dune? Any good?
I think that the themes and setting of the first four Dune novels are actually kind of bad for roleplaying games.
The super rigid “faufreluches” class system precludes the kind of mobility (not even upward mobility, just being able to fuck off to adventure) you get in a lot of roleplaying games. Not to mention the Landsraad and The Spacing Guild locking it all the fuck down. The theme of heroes being, generally, destructive to the cultures that venerate them goes against modern roleplaying sensibilities; though a more old school "Just guys doing stupid shit for money" kind of thing (tell me going into a dank dungeon isn't stupid) would work better. All of the focus is on this one desert planet that is the center of the universe. You could go with noble intrigues, but what’s more important than the one rock where Spice is mined? Not much.
Depending on when the game is set, the Noble ruling said planet is either a roid rage, muscleheaded idiot; or a guy who’s going to get assassinated in a ritualized vendetta. The only free-ish folk also have a highly communitarian structure where nails that stick up are hammered down (understandable given the knife’s edge they live on).
There’s…very little room for traditional adventurers.
What you CAN do. Maybe. Is set the game during The Scattering. The Guild has lost its monopoly on space travel with Ixian mechanical navigators, Arrakis is no longer the center of everything because of Tleilaxian ‘artificial’ spice production, and everyone is getting the fuck out of the Old Empire so no one can control them like Leto II did ever again. It’s also blank space. It’s like The Star Wars: The Old Republic era of Dune. Even if you stick to the boundaries of the Old Empire during The Scattering…everything is falling apart as the old guard try and scramble to keep their power. That opens up way more opportunity for roleplay than having it set during the first four novels.
Dune as an RPG setting? I don't see it. Some things need to be left alone. Because they are not condusive to creating a good entertaining product for our hobby.
But bear with me in this. Not every property that comes out has to have an RPG based on it. There are certainly some things that are straight up incompatible with the hobby. And that's perfectly okay.
Quote from: Voros;943777I've heard Fading Suns is basically Dune with the serial numbers filed off and is on sale on Bundle of Holding right now.
Nice, thanks. You've justified your existence for today. :D
Quote from: tenbones;943766Yes there are lots of RPG's that are obviously influenced by Dune in varous amounts, but Dune itself has always been a clusterfuck of a license. It might be one of my favorite fictional series of all time, but I'm wondering if it would actually work with broad appeal as an RPG?
With Star Wars it's a no-brainer. But Dune, even with its fantastic elements (Mentats, Fish-Speakers, Fremen, Sardaukar, Bene Gesserit, Gholas etc.) has an entirely different set of conceits that outside of the fictional main storyline would require a lot of infrastructure (that does exist via the Encyclopedia) to be introduced as playable.
So without introducing other elements (as many of the RPG's Dune has influenced have done) how would you handle it? Is it even viable within its own context? Or is it a heartbreaker RPG concept that needs "other stuff" to make it more accessible for the average player?
And if it matters - what system would you use?
Dune is such a straightforward plot that I'm not certain what the benefit of a Dune RPG would be, honestly. I like games that have been highly influenced by Dune (Fading Suns, the original WH40K setting), but while I'm a huge fan of the original books, I can't really wrap my head around what I would actually
do in the setting.
But say I were for some reason tasked to run a Dune RPG; I'd probably use Unknown Armies as the system, to be honest (stripped of all the magic, and heavily adapted mind). The mix of grittiness combined with the psychology system hits the right tone forme.
Quote from: Voros;943777I've heard Fading Suns is basically Dune with the serial numbers filed off and is on sale on Bundle of Holding right now. I picked it up.
Eh, its not
that close that I'd use that description, it just wears the influence on its sleeve.
It sounds like you are struggling with the classic dilemma many perceive in trying to create a roleplaying game for a beloved fictional setting: Are you trying to mimic the experience of re-living the specific story of the book (or some side-story you imagine is tucked into the shadowy corners of that story), or are you playing a game in something inspired by the setting of the book, but you are free to do whatever the hell you want with it. I feel like if you are trying to do the former you will never be satisfied with the result. Stories have narrative arcs that are totally antithetical to player freedom of action and fate. People try to spin this by molding systems that will funnel players into acting certain ways and doing certain things, but I don't think I've ever seen a case where it works. I would say you are either playing a game or performing an act of homage to a book, but you can't to both.
Two exceptions here are Pendragon and Call of Cthulhu, which are both directly crafted to reproduce the setting of a set of stories, and succeed on their own terms as games. What is special about them? Most of the focus in the books is on small, self-contained short-stories about the lives of a vast number of characters, whose story arcs have all sorts of good and bad outcomes. They depict a world in which its easy to insert more characters of broadly similar types who are free to act - and live or die - without mutating your sense of how that world works and what's in it.
Another good insight: The City State and Wilderlands campaign was originally designed as a place you can reach from magical portals that are distributed about middle earth (!). The message here is, lighten up - no one really gives a shit about how faithfully your game mind-melds with the book's author.
For those who read french there's an excellent (and free) Dune rpg called Imperium (http://couroberon.com/site2/imperium/#.WJO51PKjBNY).
I would base it off StarCluster 4, and have the players create their own Noble House, with characters at two or three levels of interest - a major figure: head of house, spouse, mentat: a mover and shaker who deals with the game of Houses; A lower level operative who is more hands on, and possibly a mid-level character like Gurney Halleck or Duncan Idaho pre-ghola-mentat. This way they get their orders from themselves, and don't go all postal against the GM - something I have never seen, but hey, other people are afraid of it! The House planet should be procedurally generated. I'd have to create shields, no big whup.
Obviously, Clash :D
But I will shout out that Traveller V has rules for mentats and Tielexu Face Dancers as Talents.
Quote from: David Johansen;943804Obviously, Clash :D
But I will shout out that Traveller V has rules for mentats and Tielexu Face Dancers as Talents.
Yeah, David - the actual system doesn't matter all that much beyond a minimum. The tools matter, though! :D
Quote from: Voros;943777Yeah I looked around to see if anyone had come up with a hack for the setting. I've heard Fading Suns is basically Dune with the serial numbers filed off and is on sale on Bundle of Holding right now. I picked it up.
It's also a bit 40K Lite with the serial numbers filed off.
Fading Suns is a lot like Dune in a focus on many elements like Merchant Guilds, Fanatics, and Noble Houses and Intrigue. It's really a great kitchen sink fantasy science fiction post-apocalyptic setting with great flavor. I'm not a huge fan of the Victory Point System or VPS mechanics though. If I were to try to play Fading Suns or Dune for that matter I'd probably use the flavor of that world and that setting but use mechanics that I know and work for me like Savage Worlds. As always YMMV, and you might find GURPS or Traveller mechanics more to your liking with such an universe.
Dune is great but like Star Wars has that problem of being so well-known, at least the main story. Brian Herbert has The Legends of Dune prequel novel trilogy set 10,000 years before Frank's work which might be a fun setting to play in with the PCs having to fight off cymeks and other fighting robots to try and save humanity from robot enslavement.
Quote from: slayride35;943816Fading Suns is a lot like Dune in a focus on many elements like Merchant Guilds, Fanatics, and Noble Houses and Intrigue. It's really a great kitchen sink fantasy science fiction post-apocalyptic setting with great flavor. I'm not a huge fan of the Victory Point System or VPS mechanics though. If I were to try to play Fading Suns or Dune for that matter I'd probably use the flavor of that world and that setting but use mechanics that I know and work for me like Savage Worlds. As always YMMV, and you might find GURPS or Traveller mechanics more to your liking with such an universe.
Dune is great but like Star Wars has that problem of being so well-known, at least the main story. Brian Herbert has The Legends of Dune prequel novel trilogy set 10,000 years before Frank's work which might be a fun setting to play in with the PCs having to fight off cymeks and other fighting robots to try and save humanity from robot enslavement.
Star Wars has the advantage of having had several side stories written, including novels and comics, as well as cartoons both past and present, which expands the universe in a way that Dune never got. And that's not touching the Video Games, or the RPGs, or miniatures... Star Wars has a lot more to do, because there are examples of things to do for those who aren't Luke, Han or Leia.
FYI: I love
Fading Suns.
Actually I think the period just before Dune the novel would be perfect. Noble Houses feuding would be something on a player scale, rather than armies and space navies. Assassinations, schemes, political maneuvering, scandal... It would be as entertaining as Renaissance Italy. :D
How I'd run it is for the PCs to be given missions by a noble who's such an obvious nitwit that the PCs will eventually stop doing what they're told but have the missions be there as a default if the PCs are overwhelmed or indecisive.
There's only maybe a dozen worlds touched on in the original series. I think you'd want to random generate worlds. Many people only want to meet the people from the book or go to the places in the book when they game in a setting. Similarly they'll want to play the professions from the book, mentats, face dancers, navigators, gholas, blood bound house soldiers.
My thought would be to run a game during the Jihad, either as Fremen death commandos or as local soldiers standing against them.
It's probably worth noting that there has been an official Dune RPG - Dune: Chronicles of the Imperium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune:_Chronicles_of_the_Imperium).
It was full colour and looked impressive, with a system based on the same engine that powered the Last unicorn Star Trek games (D6 dice pools).
It ran OK, with an attempt to build campaigns on running minor Houses in the Imperium. The main problem was that it was quite reliant on supplements, which never happened because the game was immediately canceled.
If I was going to see a new RPG based upon Dune, I'd like to see it based on RuneQuest/Mythras insofar that the various agencies that train characters in Dune (the Mentats, Bene Gesserits, etc) could be well presented with the Cults affiliation systems in those games. It could work in other games like Traveller, but the high skill speciality aspects of the setting might not be quite the same.
With regards to games that have been clearly influenced by Dune - the Warhammer 40K games and Fading Suns - I feel that they are bit too gothic in feel. Dune was always weirdly anachronistic as a far future, feudal/caste society, however, I also tend to reference it through the imagery of Jodorowsky or David Lynch even though their respective attempts to film it were failures. I feel that Dune is more psychedelic than Goth.
Yeah my mental picture of the setting is heavily influenced by Lynch's film.
Quote from: estar;943769Given the source material, I would focus on presenting Arrakis as place to adventure in and only give brief mention of the wider galaxy. If that well received then I would focus on similar sourcebooks for other aspect of the Dune setting. The last Dune RPG I had focused a lot on the noble houses and their intrigues.
I'd want an
Ars Magica-style system where the PCs are all members of a noble house who is taking over the production of Spice on the planet and they need to figure out how to secure the planet and maximize Spice production.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;943839I'd want an Ars Magica-style system where the PCs are all members of a noble house who is taking over the production of Spice on the planet and they need to figure out how to secure the planet and maximize Spice production.
That is pretty much what Dune: Chronicles of the Imperium was intending to be. Ars Magica was definitely an influence.
What about the (REALLY) short lived Dune RPG from Last Unicorn?
Dune seems something more suited to a wargame or board game.
But it could be possible to run a Dune campaign simmilar to how Birthright works, or BECMI.
Quote from: Omega;943856Dune seems something more suited to a wargame or board game.
Dune would make for an awesome Diplomacy variant
Found my copy of Dune: Chronicles of the Imperium, had it sealed up in plastic inside a large cardboard book envelope. It about roleplaying members of a minor in the imperium. It decent but I think a Dune RPG would be better off focusing on life on Arrakis. The underbelly of Dune Society so to speak. There would be support for Noble characters because that was part of Arrakis' society at the time of Dune. But you have spice harvesters, Fremen, scientists, etc all try to eck out life on Arrakis.
Chronicle of the Imperum was kind of a "big picture" book with the focus on the politics of the Dune Imperium and the character's place within that society. Focusing on Arrakis in constrast can still make it a Dune RPG but have many more situation that are more approachable. For example PC focused on water and spice smuggling dodging Harkonanons, Imperials, and the Spacing Guild to earn their money.
Quote from: Michael Gray;943778The super rigid "faufreluches" class system precludes the kind of mobility (not even upward mobility, just being able to fuck off to adventure) you get in a lot of roleplaying games. Not to mention the Landsraad and The Spacing Guild locking it all the fuck down.
That's what kills it for me. The Dune books deal mostly in political upheaval at the very highest echelon of a starfaring civilization. There's plenty of intrigue to be had at the lower echelons, but the social classes seem caste-like in their calcification. Fucking Tékumel allows for more social mobility than Dune's Imperium (pre-Scattering).
It's not impossible, but IMHO not worth the trouble. Better to carry the bits and pieces you like over to a more acommodating setting.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943782Dune is such a straightforward plot that I'm not certain what the benefit of a Dune RPG would be, honestly. I like games that have been highly influenced by Dune (Fading Suns, the original WH40K setting), but while I'm a huge fan of the original books, I can't really wrap my head around what I would actually do in the setting.
Same here. I much prefer to use Dune as seasoning (hehe) rather than a main course in our SF gaming.
Quote from: David Johansen;943804But I will shout out that Traveller V has rules for mentats and Tielexu Face Dancers as Talents.
I've had the PDF for a few months but I should really ather my remaining SAN and brave it some day. I completely missed out on this, for instance.
The ideal Dune-ish implementation of T5 would make great use of the genetics rules for generations of Bene Gesserit cross-breeding...
I suspect a thousand generations would break the genetics rules. You'd wind up with some god-like mentat / prophet /super warrior or something.
I always thought you could run Dune like Shadowrun. Not with Shadowrun's rules, mind you, but with a similar mindset. The PCs would be a team of troubleshooters sent out to solve problems but only for one house or organization, not for hire. It would have to be composed of lower tier types, not Gurney or Thurfir (and certainly not an Atreides or other noble house guy), but the guys that Gurney or Hawat sends out to do stuff. Sneak over and destroy the Harkonnen's reserve spice supply (or discover and stop who is trying to blow up the reserve spice supply). Work your way up from young troubadour-warrior or dude fresh out of Mentat school to being a Halleck or Hawat. Even if you move away from the Houses in the books, it would be the same kind of thing, whether you were working for the Bank or some other House. Some House would be trying to gain advantage over your House (or the Bank or CHOAM or whatever) or yours trying to gain it over them, go to it. Need to steal Other House's Pundi rice shipment, send in the team. Need to figure out where is the missing shipment of Ixian techno gadgets, send in the team. And I would avoid working for the Bene Gesserit. Way too complicated.
I see what you did there, David... :D
Quote from: Omega;943856Dune seems something more suited to a wargame or board game.
But it could be possible to run a Dune campaign simmilar to how Birthright works, or BECMI.
Yeah, Birthright, that would be an obvious lever for gameplay for sure.
Another idea for perspective is treating it a little bit like Cthulu. But with Leto II as Cthulu - the big all-knowing boogey-man with the goal of the PC's and their representative organizations (House, Bene Gesserit, Mentats etc) trying to assassinate the God Emperor.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943857Dune would make for an awesome Diplomacy variant
Just as a Heads-Up: One of the most sought after and best boardgames of all time (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/121/dune) is the Dune game, made by no one less than the Cosmic Encounter Design Team.
Personally, that game satisfies my High-Level Dune Roleplaying needs. But a game set in the Encyclopedian Jihad or in the time of the Scattering would be right up my alley.
Curiosly, although I am a huge Traveller fan, I would use Heroes Unlimited for all the Super-power Shennanigans.
QuoteI see what you did there, David...
+1, lol
Quote from: David Johansen;943871I suspect a thousand generations would break the genetics rules. You'd wind up with some god-like mentat / prophet /super warrior or something.
sounds like someone we'd worship... or the perfect villain...
As an aside, technology is also kinda scaled for narrative structure to justify the setting. Don't get me wrong - I *LOVE* the necessity for melee combat to be required with the advent of the Holtzman-effect. And it doesn't preclude the existence of las-guns or anything, it just means the moment personal shields are in effect, all your high-faluting weaponry means nothing (unless one is suicidal).
This must have been what it was like when West End got the Star Wars license and just started building infrastructure based on what was seen in the movies...
Then I have to overcome my extreme bias in leaving the books as sacrosanct, which is also part of the problem. This leads to the conclusions made upthread about Dune being better as an ingredient than as an overt setting on its own.
Post-Leto campaigning would be very interesting. But it would also be extremely daunting in design.
System is mostly irrelevant compared to the crucial need of Dune-conceit-fluent players. Once people are on the same page and enthused so much would be forgiven in an effort to make it work.
edit: I should explain. Dune is a static moment waiting on baited breath for the resolution of apocalyptic/apotheosic prophesy. It's literally an event too big shattering "all fury signifying nothing" Byzantine stasis. There's little to nothing to play because it was written so; it's the climax of a setting playing out as foretold.
There's no room for anyone else in such events for in the obliteration there is no allowed depth of human contrast. It'd be like playing PCs around the second coming of Christ before Armageddon. Only with players willing to roll with you, stretching out the setting to play either in another time, place, or power scale, could you do anything with Dune.
The players' knowledge and expectations are key here.
Quote from: tenbones;943918As an aside, technology is also kinda scaled for narrative structure to justify the setting. Don't get me wrong - I *LOVE* the necessity for melee combat to be required with the advent of the Holtzman-effect. And it doesn't preclude the existence of las-guns or anything, it just means the moment personal shields are in effect, all your high-faluting weaponry means nothing (unless one is suicidal).
Or it means the advent of disposable las-gun drones.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;943857Dune would make for an awesome Diplomacy variant
FFG picked up the Avalon Hill Dune game
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic279251_md.jpg)
and rethemed it to Rex: Final Days of an Empire. Part of its Twilight Imperium setting.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1246187_md.jpg)
Lots of minis and not thrilled with the bland Arkham Horror style spreadsheet board. Someone has de-themed the board back to Dune.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1229211_md.png)
Theres also the old MB board game and a rather nice fan made PNP Dune game called Dune Express.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic565504_md.jpg)
Quote from: Larsdangly;943770I would start with classic traveller (i.e., pre-3rd imperium as a default setting, perhaps folding in a few technical details from later books) and work from there.
Funny, I came to post the exact same thing. Well, I was going to say Traveller 5, but I like heavier systems, I guess, Classic Traveller would still be fun:D!
About the only thing both of them miss is a fencing sub-system, and that's doable.
Quote from: kobayashi;943791For those who read french there's an excellent (and free) Dune rpg called Imperium (http://couroberon.com/site2/imperium/#.WJO51PKjBNY).
Thank you, I'd read it:)!
Quote from: Tod13;943924Or it means the advent of disposable las-gun drones.
That's a good call, but since it's almost a nuclear explosion, I can see there being repercussions if any traces of your las-gun drone survive and can be traced back;).
Also, I suspect that would make las-guns and some parts required for the creation of drones very heavily regulated.
Quote from: AsenRG;943931That's a good call, but since it's almost a nuclear explosion, I can see there being repercussions if any traces of your las-gun drone survive and can be traced back;).
Also, I suspect that would make las-guns and some parts required for the creation of drones very heavily regulated.
I wasn't thinking of subtle and assumed it would be one of the great houses or some other powerful political entity.
Quote from: Tod13;943924Or it means the advent of disposable las-gun drones.
Burn Him! Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.
Quote from: Xanther;943935Burn Him! Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.
Nope. Drone as in remote-controlled, like the assassin device or, you know, drones. Perfectly kosher. :D
I think with Dune you need to set it just before Paul or after Children of Dune. PCs could really bring the setting alive, there is so much going on that is below the level of the narrative of the books. Similar to Rogue One and Star Wars. Such much story behind the simple line "You don't know what it took to get these plans." You could be an operative for any of the many factions and you could have some pretty cool class progression.
For example, how did the Emperor know Duke Atriedes was building his own elite forces? Why not be a spice smuggler. There are many machines on Ix, why? Are they in violation? And what of the old machine intelligences are they truly gone? There is so much mentioned or hinted at in the books and encyclopedia that there is endless room for play. I think this is much more Firefly, working in the backwaters or on the fringe of the systems or in the hustle and bustle of fully exploited star systems. The Guild is just a no questions asked transport service. The Noble Houses are doing there political BS while the trillions just make a living anyway they can; ignored by the powers that be. Small unit mercenary actions are rife. There is also Kanly, what an employment opportunity.
Quote from: Tod13;943936Nope. Drone as in remote-controlled, like the assassin device or, you know, drones. Perfectly kosher. :D
I'll check my OCB and get back to you :)
This is pretty much what I said a bit upthread. :D
I'll echo what others have said about playing the edgerunner characters of the Dune universe. This would allow the game to be set around the time frame of the first book, and give the characters the ability to be linked to the Dune tropes without being tied down by them. There are probably lots of low-level Bene Gesserit doing the grunt work for the sisterhood of contacting smugglers, doing deals, moving information, there are mercenaries and smugglers straight-up referenced in the books. Just need to flesh that stuff out and run with it.
I don't know, a lot of that sounds like trying to squeeze a Star Wars Edge of Empire style game out of Dune. In which case why bother placing it in that setting?
I think if you attempt to use the Dune setting as a means for running 'edge runner' campaigns you will simply end up missing a lot of the political intrigue, and character types thereof, that are iconic themes in the books. I couldn't imagine many Mentats going on missing such as these, for example.
It would be the equivalent of playing frontier spacemen scientists in a Cyberpunk campaign. You could do it, but it wouldn't really be celebrating the themes of the setting.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;944007I think if you attempt to use the Dune setting as a means for running 'edge runner' campaigns you will simply end up missing a lot of the political intrigue, and character types thereof, that are iconic themes in the books. I couldn't imagine many Mentats going on missing such as these, for example.
It would be the equivalent of playing frontier spacemen scientists in a Cyberpunk campaign. You could do it, but it wouldn't really be celebrating the themes of the setting.
I think it's simply a matter of generating adventure scenarios that don't impact the story from the books. Similar to how many Star Wars RPG campaigns are set up.
I bet I could GM a Dune campaign centered around edgerunners, and still keep the themes intact.
I think that if I was to run a DUNE game I would focus on the years before Paul. I'm not a Kevin J Anderson fan, but I found the one "House" prequel trilogy to be decent enough although somewhat long winded. I suppose I would be more inclined to use that era as my starting point, so that the events of the original novel could be a decade or more in the future.
I would focus on the intrigue of the Houses as a major theme. Perhaps center the action on a different noble House and a different planet. Perhaps a water planet or a forest planet. I think you could still have some parallels between this new planet and Arrakis -- maybe a local tribe similar to the Fremen, some sort of creatures roughly equivalent to worms, or other things to make a DUNE-like feel.
I agree that the RPG system used might not matter that much. Traveller could work, or I like the idea of using Amber since DUNE is so intrigue and character based.
Eh, take a Cyberpunk game, Shadowrun or Cyberpunk 2020. Some Runners get involved heavy in the shadow war between Corps and Govts and know exactly how their missions are affecting the Politics, Reputation, Economics of the different factions. That might be why they are taking those missions. No reason that couldn't occur with Dune Noble Houses.
Someone from inside the Cyberpunk/Shadowrun Corp/Gov't power structure frequently finds themselves off the grid or hiding in the shadows as a runner, no reason a Mentat or any other House servant couldn't find themselves similarly out on their own. In fact, that's exactly what happens to Gurney Halleck, who winds up a spice smuggler after the fall of House Atreides.
Bene Gesserit - that's kind of no different from a Jedi or Mage/Physical Adept. If the group is the crew of the Firefly, then they need the Bene Gesserit version of Ahsoka or one of the younglings, not a Yoda or Harlequin power level.
I've spent way too much (and yet not enough!) thought on this subject, up to and including just this past week.
Given that Game of Thrones is fantasy Dune, for a long time I've ponder using Green Ronin's RPG for Dune: house creation and warfare rules, intrigue rules that can compel PC actions, etc. I've read the house management rules fall apart pretty quickly in actual play, but I can't confirm that.
The other option I've considered is Savage Worlds. Lighter rules for house creation and warfare, but that might be better for my group anyway. I've made Mentat, Bene Gesserit and Swordmaster characters, just playing around to see if they "felt right".
My default setting concept would be any time in the previous 1000 years or so before Muad'dib. The lid can be off on inter-house warfare if you want, and pretty much anything goes with such a blank slate.
But yeah, you really need players who are on board with Dune and really get it. Probably helps to have them whisper their inner monologues, too, just for fun. :)
Quote from: CRKrueger;943776But the small scale Free Trader role is harder to place in the setting, which is kind of player's go-to mindset for Sci-Fi.
Good players know they can create characters other than free traders for a Dune setting.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;944143But yeah, you really need players who are on board with Dune and really get it. Probably helps to have them whisper their inner monologues, too, just for fun. :)
Great idea, the melodrama of the setting is too often downplayed but is a big part of the appeal for me.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;944146Good players know they can create characters other than free traders for a Dune setting.
Oooh. If I can get one of my friends to GM, I want to play a PH (professional hunter) guiding a client out for sandworm!
Quote from: finarvyn;944137I agree that the RPG system used might not matter that much. Traveller could work, or I like the idea of using Amber since DUNE is so intrigue and character based.
Actually, that would be a very interesting approach right there.
Quote from: CRKrueger;944142Eh, take a Cyberpunk game, Shadowrun or Cyberpunk 2020. Some Runners get involved heavy in the shadow war between Corps and Govts and know exactly how their missions are affecting the Politics, Reputation, Economics of the different factions. That might be why they are taking those missions. No reason that couldn't occur with Dune Noble Houses.
Someone from inside the Cyberpunk/Shadowrun Corp/Gov't power structure frequently finds themselves off the grid or hiding in the shadows as a runner, no reason a Mentat or any other House servant couldn't find themselves similarly out on their own. In fact, that's exactly what happens to Gurney Halleck, who winds up a spice smuggler after the fall of House Atreides.
Bene Gesserit - that's kind of no different from a Jedi or Mage/Physical Adept. If the group is the crew of the Firefly, then they need the Bene Gesserit version of Ahsoka or one of the younglings, not a Yoda or Harlequin power level.
It just sounds like you're shoe-horning an Edge of Empire/Cyberpunk game into the Dune setting, though. You are missing out on the rich narrative tropes and themes of the books themselves.
So, campaigns: Masters of a Minor House, Agents of a Great House, Agents of the Sisterhood, Fremen Under the Beast, Fremen on Jihad, Against the Fremen Jihad, Smugglers of Dune, Intrigues and Follies of the Face Dancers, Hired Swords for Hire, Seekers of the Diaspora, Honoured Matres Tell All, We're All Duncan Idaho Here.
Any others?
Quote from: TrippyHippy;944325Actually, that would be a very interesting approach right there.
This makes a lot of sense to me.
But it touches on what would be my main question: What does a particular Referee or group of players care about
Dune? What turns them on? Because
Dune is going to be different things to different people.
You could use Amber. You could easily use the
Traveller rules (pick your flavor; I'd go with CT obviously) and have the PCs be members of a Noble House's entourage. (There's nothing inherent about being Free Traders with Classic
Traveller. And plenty of
Traveller campaigns have taken place on one world.)
So, what is that the Referee envisions for play is really a key question. The first question. And then go from there.
Beyond that, another question. Why Arrakis or even the
Dune universe. What if the Referee and Players took those very things that they loved most about the book and wanted to dig into. And then came up with their own unique setting. Again, either on the other side of the empire from
Dune or even something new wholecloth. As others have noted, the setting of
Dune is about
that one thing... But if you shift locals or universes you can get the stuff you want... but have the freedom to cut loose and find out how crazy things get in your story.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;944327It just sounds like you're shoe-horning an Edge of Empire/Cyberpunk game into the Dune setting, though. You are missing out on the rich narrative tropes and themes of the books themselves.
I don't play RPGs to deal with narrative tropes and themes, that's what the novels themselves are for. What's the point of dealing with tropes and themes of Religion, Power, Profit, Class, Terrorism, Drug Use, Ecology, Nobility, Precognition, Freedom, Tyranny, Christianity vs. Islam, the Future of Man, etc in the Dune Universe
directly through an RPG? You'd have a much better and interesting discussion over some good food with good friends.
The Dune Universe, like any other setting, from Middle Earth, to Westeros, to Tekumel, is what it is. You portray the setting in a verisimilar way, then the PCs will interact with those elements of the setting.
Quote from: David Johansen;944338We're All Duncan Idaho Here.
That would be awesome. For those ThemeSeekers out there, here it is: Each ghola of Duncan struggles with recurring invasive memories as they have to work together and piece together their shared history while at the same time developing their own individuality. Here's the Campaign Title:
Spoiler
My Own Private Idaho :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;944361I don't play RPGs to deal with narrative tropes and themes, that's what the novels themselves are for. What's the point of dealing with tropes and themes of Religion, Power, Profit, Class, Terrorism, Drug Use, Ecology, Nobility, Precognition, Freedom, Tyranny, Christianity vs. Islam, the Future of Man, etc in the Dune Universe directly through an RPG? You'd have a much better and interesting discussion over some good food with good friends.
The Dune Universe, like any other setting, from Middle Earth, to Westeros, to Tekumel, is what it is. You portray the setting in a verisimilar way, then the PCs will interact with those elements of the setting.
That's a good list of Dune's themes (and some kudos for the use of the word 'verisimilar', incidentally), but in terms of the narrative approach of the books, I think the main thing is how to manage to capture the in-court intrigue elements of the game as an actual campaign. That is the appeal of trying out the Amber system too, per chance. How many themes you can build into your campaign is possibly tricky, but if you want to emulate the books at all - well, that is what I'd be interested in.
I've never read or played any of the Dune RPGs.
Any of them do a good job at this?
BTW, another shout-out for Fading Suns. I love that setting. Mongoose should do a Traveller version with the FS IP.
Quote from: Spinachcat;944422I've never read or played any of the Dune RPGs.
Any of them do a good job at this?
BTW, another shout-out for Fading Suns. I love that setting. Mongoose should do a Traveller version with the FS IP.
Dune portrays a vast universe and conveys the ambiance of an eternal empire so huge and old, it is beyond common comprehension.
I looked into Fading Suns and saw a:
dozen planets and some White-Wolvish graphic design - if there ever was a conceptual mismatch, it was that one. Where's the Dune in Fading Suns? I did not see it. At all.
Quote from: Spinachcat;944422I've never read or played any of the Dune RPGs.
Any of them do a good job at this?
BTW, another shout-out for Fading Suns. I love that setting. Mongoose should do a Traveller version with the FS IP.
As I mentioned, the Dune: Chronicles of the Imperium game was pretty much set up like Ars Magica, insofar that you set up a Minor House for all the PCs to become part of. I'm not sure many people ever played it though as only a few thousand copies were made and the line was cancelled almost immediately with no supplements. The mechanics were the same as the LUG Star Trek games, although I thought the combat system looked a little convoluted (less of an issue in the Star Trek games). There was talk of a D20 version being play tested, which was meant to be great by one of the designers (can't remember who).
Fading Suns could make a good Traveller setting, although it would have to be a licensed game from a third party, I would guess, as Mongoose seem to have a full programme already. But yeah, although the influence of a medievalish space-opera setting with Houses and Guilds and the like has an obvious influence, I don't think it's really quite the same as Dune.
Quote from: Settembrini;944426Dune portrays a vast universe and conveys the ambiance of an eternal empire so huge and old, it is beyond common comprehension.
I looked into Fading Suns and saw a:
dozen planets and some White-Wolvish graphic design - if there ever was a conceptual mismatch, it was that one. Where's the Dune in Fading Suns? I did not see it. At all.
Mostly in House Hawkwood's pseudo Atreides-ness and their ongoing feud with House Decado's pseudo Harkonnen-ness.
And I guess a guild that controls most space travel, though through the more prosaic means of having the keys to the ships and the know how to fly them than any supernatural shenanigans. It's a very... light touch.
Edit: And body shields too.
Fading Suns has a more Arthurian vibe what with the knights on Errantry and all that. It is a game of house politics and personal struggles with power though. I did like how each power had its own unique trade off. But, it's as much or more Warhammer 40000 than Dune.
I might take a stab at a Dune, Traveller adaptation. Gun Combat would become Blade Combat in almost every instance. Social standing would be far less fluid moving down would be easy and moving up nigh impossible. Shields -12 vs projectile weapons, -6 vs melee weapons, cause sub atomic explosion vs laser weapons.
Quote from: Spinachcat;944422I've never read or played any of the Dune RPGs.
Any of them do a good job at this?
BTW, another shout-out for Fading Suns. I love that setting. Mongoose should do a Traveller version with the FS IP.
I'd be all for a Traveller version, obviously:).
I'd run or play in a Dune-based game. How many people died in Paul's first jihad? 600bn? If that's the case and it didn't completely depopulate the galaxy then there's something out there to do with a sea of humanity like that. Like in 40k, there's worlds - hell, whole (small) sectors of the galaxy - beyond Imperial control. People will be born there, live there, adventure, explore beyond their wildest imaginations there and die there without ever having seen or heard rumors about the Empire, the Warp, Chaos, Eldar, Tau, Orks, Tyranids, etc.
There's no reason the Empire in Dune couldn't be exactly like that.
Hell given GW's penchant for [strike]stealing[/strike]creating things that are wholly their own, I would imagine that is exactly the case. Spice harvested (in immensely smaller quantities) on other worlds; rogue Mentats, Face Dancers, Semuta dealers, etc. etc. all existing beyond the bounds of the human Empire...
Quote from: tenbones;943766And if it matters - what {Dune} system would you use?
I'd probably break out
Dune: Chronicles of the Imperium, and give it another go. It's probably been about 10 year since I've cracked that book, and I only ran the intro adventure in it. I've forgotten how worthless or worthwhile the ICON system was.
But, I do like the idea of using Classic Traveller as a rules backbone. Seems like it'd work pretty well. Could use
Dune: CotI or the
Dune Encyclopedia as a reference/setting guide.
Quote from: David Johansen;944338So, campaigns: Masters of a Minor House, Agents of a Great House, Agents of the Sisterhood, Fremen Under the Beast, Fremen on Jihad, Against the Fremen Jihad, Smugglers of Dune, Intrigues and Follies of the Face Dancers, Hired Swords for Hire, Seekers of the Diaspora, Honoured Matres Tell All, We're All Duncan Idaho Here.
Any others?
That should be "We're Living In Our Own Duncan Idaho", David! :D
Added: Dammit CKreuger! Same damned idea! :P
So here's your Dune scenario:
It's on the eve (so to speak) of the Atredies' assumption of power on Arakkis. Everything is going JUST AS PLANNED except...except, there's a location where the Spacing Guild's prescience is failing them. Several Minor Houses are to pay fealty to the Emperor Shaddam IV as a functional acknowledgement that power was justly and fairly handed over. The Guild, of course, moving the House Lords to Kaitain for the ceremony.
The problem is, again, Guild prescience is hitting a "blind spot" for which they cannot account. They've narrowed it down to a minor world, home of the lesser House Sung, but beyond that they cannot say. The Guild would rather not involve the Emperor and the unsubtle Sardaukar, nor the questionable Assassin's Guild, so from whatever social circle (within reason) the characters currently inhabit they are tapped to investigate.
It turns out Duke Sung has located, deep within a forgotten vault on his planet, a functioning Thinking Machine, a remnant of the Butlerian Jihad! The intellect of the machine is so mighty that it bends and distorts prescient abilities, much like a supermassive body in space bends and distorts space and time.
He has activated some of it's "lesser" functions (e.g., it can speak, and see, etc.), but he hasn't fully unlocked the Machine Intellect's full potential - yet. Bewitched by the promises of power and authority the machine has made, Duke Sung is planning to use the events on Kaitain as an ambush, to try and seize power in a coup d'etat. The Thinking Machine will focus all of it's prescience into outwitting the various house guards and defense units.
The Guild knows "something" is amiss, but cannot ascertain what. Since they cannot request enough Sardaukar to drop onto the world and commit planetary genocide without casus belli they have summoned the group to investigate.
A good GM will argue heavily for the Thinking Machine, making a compelling case to try and convince the players to side with it (even setting aside its megalomania to play on their sympathies); Sung knows what he has done will disgrace his entire House if he can't pull this off, forcing his Household into exile and him into a few thousand years in a Pain Amplifier. The vaults where the Thinking Machine is located should be full of deadly defense systems, plus household retainers fighting to protect the Duke from "assassins". Once the players arrive on-world, the Guild will Interdict the planet: no one lands, no-one takes off until they can report back. Even if the party sides with the Machine and attempts to betray the Guild (and by extension, the Empire), the "blind spot" will remain, and they'll have to take the Highliner by storm and navigate to Kaitain without the assistance of the Guild...
I think that's a pretty good "Dune Universe" adventure right there.
Yeah, not bad at all.
So, what would the careers for Dune Traveller be? Bene Geseret, Noble, Soldier, Doctor, Guildsman, Serf, Outcast (includes Fremen?)
The Telexeiu provide a couple alternate races like Face Dancers and Gholas but we're looking at a human only universe. I'd think that the noble class might have slight attribute advantages owing to Bene Geseret eugenics.
I'm not a Traveller wonk. If I were going to use an established system I'd be tempted to use CP2020's Interlock and create the infrastructure and sub-systems on my own or Savage Worlds (because I'm lazy).
I'm less concerned about "careers" than I am the subsystems in which those careers would engage.
Ballpark sub-systems I'd be interestedin: Prana-Bindu of the Bene Gesserit, the full capabilities of the Mentats, the actual benefits of the Spice. Generational rules that could allow the PC's to actually create the Kwisatz Haderach (and what that would even look like in gameplay), gene-manipulation for Face Dancers and Gholas. And of course there's the tech in the Encyclopedia that would need work.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;944327It just sounds like you're shoe-horning an Edge of Empire/Cyberpunk game into the Dune setting, though. You are missing out on the rich narrative tropes and themes of the books themselves.
I agree. Remove the political intrigue and empire builder aspects and its no longer Dune. You might as well be playing any given generic SF setting.
"Hey! Romeo and Juliet was a great setting. But I dont like all that romance and machinations. Lets play pirates!" :rolleyes:
Quote from: Omega;944485I agree. Remove the political intrigue and empire builder aspects and its no longer Dune. You might as well be playing any given generic SF setting.
"Hey! Romeo and Juliet was a great setting. But I dont like all that romance and machinations. Lets play pirates!" :rolleyes:
You want to play House Corrino, the Bene Tleilaxu or CHOAM, there are way better ways to do House v. House than a RPG system designed to represent the actions of an individual, like some of the aforementioned boardgames or you want to Bene Gesserit it, use Microscope, and head on over to Other Games to talk about it.
If you're focused on individual level play, then you can interact with the broader agencies through the character, as they would without necessarily being Shaddam IV.
Not necessarily. But removing the intrigue and kingdom builder aspects from the setting does kinda leave out the main thrust of the setting.
If the PCs just ditch all that and head off to sell wine on the tradeways then what was the point in even setting it in the Dune universe?
If the PCs plan to get involved with all the machinations then that is a different matter. I think theres plenty of opportunities for non-big-gun level PCs to play around with and potentially work their way upwards or be very involved in the intrigues from different angles.
Quote from: CRKrueger;944490You want to play House Corrino, the Bene Tleilaxu or CHOAM, there are way better ways to do House v. House than a RPG system designed to represent the actions of an individual, like some of the aforementioned boardgames or you want to Bene Gesserit it, use Microscope, and head on over to Other Games to talk about it.
If you're focused on individual level play, then you can interact with the broader agencies through the character, as they would without necessarily being Shaddam IV.
These things are not mutually exclusive. See
D&D Companion, ASoIaF RPG, Rogue Trader, et al.
First: THere is a lot more Dune in Fading Suns that a couple of noble houses that might be somewhat heavy reskins of houses from Dune, also Settembrini, in this case, can fuck off for not having a clue. For fairness sake, I'll point out you can do a decent Star Wars in the setting as well (seriously: Light Sabers and psychic powers. Fuck you: Jedi!).
What is missing is Dune and the Spice itself, both of which could be added easily enough. Turning Fading Suns into Dune is a bit more work than that, but all the tools are pretty much in place at the level FS plays at. Ships aren't bouncing in and out of lightspeed, so chaging Gates to Jumpships is simple enough. YOu've got psychic powers that can be used for Bene Gesserit, and for Tlielaxu (I think...), and others. FS had its own version of the butlerian jihad, so think machines are rare in the setting and generally viewed as heretical.
So, the tools are there to change the setting, including shields that require slow moving attacks to penetrate (though no laz-nuke effect, but lasers are rare weapons in the setting anyway.).
Secondly: I'm not entirely sure I buy the repeated refrain that there is no room for adventures in Dune, due to social castes etc. The Books/Movies take a generally top down look from the upper classes, who do have very rigidly defined roles and responsibilities, yet also a fair amount of freedom. The fremen have a lot of freedom, we can assume Spice Smugglers have a lot of freedom. Gurney Haleck doesn't have much struggle to find a place in the galaxy despite losing his noble patron... and he started out as a Harkonnen Slave on Geidi Prime, so clearly people... other than rulers of a House... have quite a bit of freedom, we just don't see much of it, given the focus.
For that matter: Princess Irulan goes from (brain fart... capital world (Tm)) to Geidie Prime to intrigue directly with (Sting?... fuck my memory is shit today), against the Emperor's wishes... at least in teh Sci-fi special version of the movie. People do shit for their own reasons in defiance of the rules all the damn time, is what I'm saying. Even in Dune.
How much freedom does a Bene Gesserit Missionary have? I'd guess quite a bit. Dropped on a savage world and creating a form of religion later sisters can manipulate if they need too is a pretty big job, and one that doesn't call for calling back home for orders every other day. I seem to recall Duncan's service after becoming a Swordsman of Girahz (SP???!!!!) was more voluntary than compulsory, done out of a sense of obligation to his patron rather than legal decree. Again: We don't see Swordmasters roaming around on their own because teh focus is no on members of this random school (and we can assume many other similarly elite martial schools exist, just as at LEAST two schools of mentats exist...), but on members of House Atreidies and their entourage. We can only speculate on 'former' Sadukar floating around the galaxy like bums, because we're TOLD by the people who are as far from teh trenches as you can get that they Sadukar are fanatically loyal, that they are special.
They could well be wrong. How many Sadukar were left for dead on Arrakis that may have found a new life among Spice Smugglers, or perhaps among even the Fremen (not likely, given animosity between the two, but still possible...)?
But that doesn't answer the question. How do you make a Dune game work?
Fair enough. I need to see a few questions answered first.
What do you NEED out of a Dune game? Do you HAVE to play politics in the Landsraad? Do you need to have random adventures having Firefly-esque 'jobs'?
Here's the thing: If we take Fading Suns as a template, you can easily build a party of Spice Smugglers. You could have a noble's entourage, including Noble. You could play a military style game, with religious holy knights doing commando raids on dirty heretics (in dune? Well, Fish Speakers maybe?, or Sadukar seeking out Fremen rebels...)... You could play non-Navigator Spacing Guild members with a small ship of their own doing... technical stuff. I dunno, that last one isn't up my alley, but you could do it.
What you can't really do is play Politics on the grand scheme. Space naval battles (using Noble Armadas), sure. And there isn't much saying you CAN'T be the Duke of an entire, hotly contested, world... but that's 'background fluff' for your character, mostly. The GM would have to create the 'higher level' play for himself.
IN which case, maybe take a look at Reskinning Burning Empires, with Dune style rules instead of invasions of Mind worms. IF you like Burning Wheel style rules, of course, with antagonistic GMs playing the hostile parties and so forth, and play structured around rigid acts and scenes and shit.
Beyond what you NEED for it to be Dune (and for the sake of argument I'm discounting the need to replay the damn books word for word....), what exactly is your playstyle? Me? I can't stand narrative metamechanics, so any rule set based on that is right out the window... barring perhaps some metamechanics to abstract events larger than characters (politics...). Me? I want a sandbox, a playground. I don't want to be forced to play politics, or even nessessarily to play politics through abstracts, rather than meeting NPCs and making deals that will hopefully play out on a grander scale (which FS does allow if not actually support). A FS based Dune, as I sort of described it above would be right up my alley, whereas I could enjoy, but to a much lesser extent, a simpler Burning Empires 'politics uber alles' take, and a Hero Quest super-narrative? Fuck off with a backhoe... but that's me, and you were asking, I assume, for You.
To be tendentious: Do it in GURPS, already. Jeez... they probably have a fucking book for it anyway. Somewhere.
Quote from: Omega;944485I agree. Remove the political intrigue and empire builder aspects and its no longer Dune. You might as well be playing any given generic SF setting.
But you don't have to remove those aspects. You just need to have an approach to the setting that allows players the freedom to have adventures in the Dune universe. This is more easily accomplished with the edge characters interacting with all that intrigue and empire building. (and religion and spice powers and everything else)
I'm not sure that the concept of 'Spice smugglers' even exists in Dune. If that were the case, then it somewhat undermines the entire premise of the politics of the setting - "He who controls the spice" and all that. Dune doesn't really have Star Wars-style freighters either. They have whopping great star craft that move through the universe by folding space-time, and are only able to be operated by Navigators. The Guilds in Dune are powerful monopolies.
I'm no expert as I've only read the first book and seen the movie about a billion times but that's what I thought as well. The Spacing Guild has a monopoly on space travel.
Spice Smugglers are Canon, Dune Book One even. Gurney Halleck falls in with Smugglers after the fall of House Atredies and before joining Maud'dib. Smugglers pay the Spacing Guild a portion of their cargo of Spice to avoid customs. Mind you that the single largest consumer of Spice per capita is the Spacing Guild, the Navigators literally live in an atmosphere of spice gas as they mutate.
I believe smugglers are mentioned several times, to the point where they were known to use the Poles to hide in the magnetics to avoid detection, but I'm starting to get into less certain territory there. I've been dealing with a non-canon expansion to set up a detailed setting for use in the Fading Suns thread... basically explaining the logistics and economics of Spice Smuggling almost as an aside.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;944559But you don't have to remove those aspects. You just need to have an approach to the setting that allows players the freedom to have adventures in the Dune universe. This is more easily accomplished with the edge characters interacting with all that intrigue and empire building. (and religion and spice powers and everything else)
I was thinking about this the other day. I've often toyed with the idea of running a Dune campaign and for some reason, I think running it during Dune Messiah would be pretty cool. Something about that book felt gameable to me. Another thought I had is start at the beginning with the players as Fremen, and simply remove Paul Atreides or shift his role to an unknown personality, so things can be new to the players but they can still be part of similar events and developments.
Well I've put a bit of a start into a Traveller variant. I'm thinking alliances and fiefs will be an important part of it and starship combat all but unknown. After all, impenetrable shields are impenetrable.
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36059-Traveller-Dune&p=944596#post944596
Quote from: Voros;944576I'm no expert as I've only read the first book and seen the movie about a billion times but that's what I thought as well. The Spacing Guild has a monopoly on space travel.
They have a monopoly on interstellar travel. And IIRC they turn a blind eye to a lot of shenanigans as long as they get paid.
Just don't start shit in one of the heighliners, or the monopoly will come crashing down on you.
Oddly enough. Battletech allways to me had an odd sort of Dune feel to it. Not a big one, but just some of the elements. Warring houses, Political Intrigue, A powerful faction that controls a vital element. Which of course is also elements from history which both likely drew from.
Quote from: Omega;944631Oddly enough. Battletech allways to me had an odd sort of Dune feel to it. Not a big one, but just some of the elements. Warring houses, Political Intrigue, A powerful faction that controls a vital element. Which of course is also elements from history which both likely drew from.
That and James Clavell's Shogun. They pretty much stole the "We 5 lords of these Houses are to protect the heir until his coming of age, but instead we FIGHT!" background straight.
Side note on the games influenced by Dune, Spacemaster second edition has many Dune touches though the shields aren't as good. And they have a dohicky you can put on the end of a gun or laser to allow it to fire through the shield.
I'd probably go with Traveller.
Quote from: Omega;944631Oddly enough. Battletech allways to me had an odd sort of Dune feel to it. Not a big one, but just some of the elements. Warring houses, Political Intrigue, A powerful faction that controls a vital element. Which of course is also elements from history which both likely drew from.
Is there any reason why Dune couldn't have mechs?
Force fields bring swords back to the battlefield.
Suspensor technology lets you wear heavier armor to counter the swords.
Now you need heavier weapons to punch through the armor. You can't put suspensors on them because the weight is the whole point.
So you put servos in your gravity-suspended heavy armor to make it into powered armor so you can carry your heavy weapons.
An arms race follows, and the suits keep scaling up.
Before long you have guys walking around in sword-wielding battle-machines that can wrestle with sand worms.
(Forgive me if these are already in any of the later books. I've only read the first one.)
*edit*
(Of course, this is Dune. So I imagine they would instead just breed a race of 50 foot tall giant men and surgically implant the suspensors into them as they did with the baron so the giants can walk upright in defiance of square-cubed law without snapping their spines. And then they permanently encase the guys in armor to keep them loyal, so it's more like
Spoiler
Evangelion
Quote from: RPGPundit;944996I'd probably go with Traveller.
We're 10 pages in and I still agree with you (and my first vote). It is the only game that is obviously good, basically appropriate, and general enough that it isn't a massive project to shoe horn into the setting.
Quote from: Larsdangly;945001We're 10 pages in and I still agree with you (and my first vote). It is the only game that is obviously good, basically appropriate, and general enough that it isn't a massive project to shoe horn into the setting.
When you, me and Pundit have already agreed about some idea, there's something to be said about it!
Quote from: Cave Bear;945000Is there any reason why Dune couldn't have mechs?
The Butlerian Jihad would probably frown on it and prohibit it, even if they aren't directly thinking machines.
Shields are only part of the equation. The other half is that the houses have nuclear weapons. The great convention is the real reason everyone uses swords. Lasguns detonate shields but they aren't used much because nobody wants to risk nuclear retaliation. We see plenty of examples of the conditioning and fanaticism necessary to make suicide attacks, but there's an even easier solution to the blast radius greater than range problem. Wire guided lasgun drones.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;945012The Butlerian Jihad would probably frown on it and prohibit it, even if they aren't directly thinking machines.
Plus, even the Emperor balks at allowing Baron Harkonnen to keep the artillery after the Atredies are defeated; something like "I need the metal for other projects". If the Emperor of Space needs to recycle tube artillery, then having a crapload of battlemechs for each house lord is probably out, too.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;945019Plus, even the Emperor balks at allowing Baron Harkonnen to keep the artillery after the Atredies are defeated; something like "I need the metal for other projects". If the Emperor of Space needs to recycle tube artillery, then having a crapload of battlemechs for each house lord is probably out, too.
Man has all the ores of thousands of planets to mine, and still he recycles... I guess that's why he's the Emperor of Space?
It's Beast Rabban who wants to keep the arty, and the Baron who is planning to recycle.
And I wonder what I can't remember because random Dune trivia fills so much of my brain.
Probably nothing as important.
okay okay... so now I'm thinking, based on this thread.
Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. I never use any setting strictly "as is". So maybe the real question should be - "what is our kickass version of Dune and what new elements would we introduce?"
I mean -- c'mon!! Battletech + Dune? hello? That sounds fucking awesome. What are the limits we could introduce without ruining the setting?
Quote from: darthfozzywig;945029It's Beast Rabban who wants to keep the arty, and the Baron who is planning to recycle.
Thanks; that tells me I need to re-read Dune.
Of course, that puts it VERY much back into perspective: given that the Baron was essentially going to sacrifice a piece by letting Rabban run amok but ultimately lose (and hopefully die in the process) on Arakkis, then he may well have just been lying about recycling the artillery. The Baron surely had to see how useful it was and Rabban having it would have made his job of oppressing the Fremen that much easier, something that ultimately the Baron did
not want. He might well have told his men to chuck the arty tubes into deep space once they'd shipped them off-planet.
I've got a setting fragment that grew out of the question of how Star Trek's federation would deal with Dune's Imperium should they meet. It's me so it's farther than that, the Terran technology is lower tech, no proper shields etc and the alien human empire was actually created in a very short period of time after the first time a human ship passed through, by low radio frequency AIs who's non-human society went totally on-line leaving behind such small and quiet technology that they weren't noticed. The base unit of their technology is the size of a grain of sand. So its drifted off Dune a bunch but you've got the idealistic federation encountering an apparently ancient and baroque human culture that wasn't there when the last scout ship passed by fifteen years earlier.
I expect if Shaddam sent Pickard a sex slave as a gift, Riker'd end up sleeping in them. Kirk would just put her in his closet with the rest of them ;)
Quote from: David Johansen;945051I expect if Shaddam sent Pickard a sex slave as a gift, Riker'd end up sleeping in them. Kirk would just put her in his closet with the rest of them ;)
Objection! Kirk is NOT a womanizer! He is married to the Enterprise and USES Women only to save his Ship and Crew.
If there's one thing that riles me up, is misinformation on Kirks's objectification of Women. Kirk did not objectify women, he womanized an object, and THEN took advantage of women for the benefit of said object.
Nuff said.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;945050The Baron surely had to see how useful it was and Rabban having it would have made his job of oppressing the Fremen that much easier, something that ultimately the Baron did not want.
No, the point was the Baron was extremely profits-conscious. The artillery had served its purpose (sealing the Atreides solders in the caves near Arrakeen) and the metal was now more useful elsewhere.
Remember, the Fremen weren't on the Harkonnens' radar at that point: they were just some desert rabble.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;945081No, the point was the Baron was extremely profits-conscious.
Yes, due to how much the Guild charges for troops transport;).