We'll see if I can manage this.
I feel like my dungeon drawing technique falls into repetitive habits. This is just a lighthearted attempt to put some stream of consciousness dungeon drawing under scrutiny and see if I can't find a few new approaches. I'd like to see how/if they develop over the 30, and I welcome any and all criticism.
My aim is for each map to be basically ready for play once a hypothetical DM spends a couple of hours stocking them.
Rules:
-No more than 45 mins per map.
-Any shading for clarity counts towards the time limit.
-All hand drawn in HB pencil on quadrille paper.
-Any on-map descriptions must be at most two words, not including 'of', 'in', 'to' etc.
And I'm going to use elevation symbols e.g. ^50' for a ceiling/arch height of 50 feet.
If you can think of any other constraints for a particular map that you think would help boost creativity, let me know and I might give them a try.
Here's the first.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/1-3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/2-3.jpg)
On one level, I admire this, and your drawings thus far are very nice. On another, I think it might be a more laudable goal to make one really good detailed and stocked dungeon that's truly interesting and unique, in the same time period.
RPGPundit
That's probably true, but each time I've tried to do larger dungeons recently they seem to just be over-familiar, and I find myself falling into bad habits within each smaller section; thought this might be a good exercise to break the mould.
I think it's awesome; I've been checking back every day.
Maybe when they're all done you could combine them in some way to give yourself a mega-dungeon?
I'm subscribed. There's nothing stopping AndrewSFTSN from doing one big one next time, if there is a next time.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/3-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/4-3.jpg)
I like what I'm seeing; please continue.
Skeleton grinder! :cool:
Cool maps.
I'm thinking some sort of "gamer advent" for myself.
Maybe we could start a thread for people to contribute little bits and bobs useful for gaming throughout December. Encounters, maps, NPCs, etc... Just little spits of creativity to keep things flowing.
Hrm...
A noble endeavor. Some of these might be fun to build on in the future.
However I do see what you mean about repetitive:
-perpetually top-down perspective
- big flowing thing + many scattered perfect boxes + long hallways (Nx) + sprinkled circles
- generally inconvenient floor plan; doesn't have as much "livable space" logic
I wish you success! I'll check in as well. Let's see if you're brainstorm starts upon new patterns.
They look good, but what's in them?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Opaopajr;603126However I do see what you mean about repetitive:
-perpetually top-down perspective
- big flowing thing + many scattered perfect boxes + long hallways (Nx) + sprinkled circles
- generally inconvenient floor plan; doesn't have as much "livable space" logic
Thanks! This is the kind of thing that's handy to read. I'll post up another couple later along with thoughts about why the current ones have ended up predictable.
Quote from: RPGPundit;603486They look good, but what's in them?
RPGPundit
As yet-nearly nothing. I'm more aiming to nail layouts potentially conducive to interesting play for now, rather than contents/denizens.
Quote from: Piestrio;602900Cool maps.
I'm thinking some sort of "gamer advent" for myself.
Maybe we could start a thread for people to contribute little bits and bobs useful for gaming throughout December. Encounters, maps, NPCs, etc... Just little spits of creativity to keep things flowing.
Hrm...
That'd be cool!
What'd be really awesome is if we could get a different gaming company or interest to offering something every day for a day between now and Christmas. Maybe it's a minor title for a buck, or a special sale on something...
Hmmm...that's a bit off topic.
Also, keep up the amazing work, Andrew. 'Mites and 'Tites? Love it. :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/5-3.jpg)
An attempt to break out of the tyranny of the grid.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/6-2.jpg)
Dig the organic looking latter one. Kinda crazy, but a good "OMG, I totally wanna know WTF that's all about!" crazy.
Interestingly enough, the close clustering of squared rooms and lack of long, perfectly tunneled (now with extra right angle turns!), gives it a more lived in appearance. Digging through rock is hard, organisms are lazy, thus this organic layout feels more 'natural'.
Your previous one of the new two does suffer from the dreaded routine. What also stands out are "long, perfect, filled-w/-right-angles!' tunnels. Unless it's a 'fat man's misery' or other preventative trap from intruders, it's... odd (and so overdone nowadays as to be trite). Hallways are admittedly hard to add detail though, and graphs just beg you to pay attention to its grid.
I will say though that this previous one has quite awesome room names. "Canoptic Whorehouse," "God Tears," "Moth Hell," "God's Backgammon," & "Smothering Tapestries"? Great stuff, a hook in two words! Perhaps cluster the awesome within their own regions -- spaced with thematic banal between -- so it doesn't seem so "2 much randum kool for no raezon!" Good stuff, but sometimes I need to catch my breath.
"God's Backgammon" sounds tremendous. :)
That first one was drawn before your post pointing out the "formula" some of them had fallen into.
Can you elaborate on this:
Quote from: Opaopajr-perpetually top-down perspective
?
When I'm drawing a dungeon layout, I can't get away from thinking about how they will affect of the game, and I wonder if that's a hindrance sometimes. This is why I often avoid the types of areas I think would be fascinating to explore-cave systems, very badly ruined complexes, mazes made of living digestive tract etc.
A 40 x 30 room with a door in the N and W walls is described and mapped in seconds. A roughly L shaped cavern with 3' openings 20' off the floor at the junction formed by the walls running E-W and N-S can be difficult to explain, or even worse, you think it's been explained perfectly, then you see the players clusterfuck map 45 minutes later when they are planning their escape and inwardly weep.
I've heard the idea of drawing the room shape on a dry wipe grid and then erasing it when they leave, probably the best solution.
I think it has to do with assuming immediate cartographic utility in the form of a blueprint floor plan.
But people didn't always think that way. Not only are there vertical cutaways, there's isometric perspective, there's symbolic regional referencing, etc. Humans are surprisingly flexible in their mapping.
Benoist's How to Megadungeon topic shows a side view dungeon dealing with all the levels and their inter-level interconnections. Intra-level detail is provided by a top-down perspective addressing a singular level's elevation.
Japanese Heian period art has palaces in a pseudo-isometric viewpoint with the roofs blown off.
Vornheim structures the house of medusa with a vertical slice of the home populated with visual icons and 1st person scene-snapshots throughout appropriate levels and regions.
Sounds dangerously post-modern, I guess. But really it's just opening up the art from the graph paper grid.
Here's a thought. Get a radial graph, instead of these cartesian graphs, and let's see where your subconscious takes you. With no right angles everywhere, you might find yourself with less right angles?
Thanks for all the comments so far. I don't see anything overtly post modern about drop-in illustrations, I'll give it a go. I'm not sure how it'll eat into the 45min time limit I set though.
No update tonight though, gaming instead.
Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;604071No update tonight though, gaming instead.
I think it's downright selfish of you to put your own gaming ahead of the pathetic needs of those following this thread . . .
I think the "blueprint" method is the most used because it works best, generally speaking.
RPGPundit
Side elevations feel super limiting for this kind of thing to me.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/7-1.jpg)
Quote from: RPGPundit;604326I think the "blueprint" method is the most used because it works best, generally speaking.
RPGPundit
It is also relatively easy for those of us who dont have great mapping talents. I do occassionally experiment with more 3D maps to get a feel for a location, but the top down blue-print view is so much faster and effective for me. My maps are pretty shoddy, but they seem to get the job done for the most part.
For me, what I really need is enough on paper so i cankeep track of locations in game, notes so I know what kind of things are in the area, an encouter chart and some general background info.
To the OP: this is a cool idea and the maps look nice so far. Since you are basically just trying to crank out maps to get past some patterns and habits, I would say try to work through those habits within your standard format (which seems to be top down blue print). I have found changing approaches doesn't get rid of the underlying bad habits in most cases. If you have a bad habit, it will likely show up in 2D and 3D maps. I am not saying method doesn't matter. I would just see if you can fix whatever the problem is in blueprint first.
Some gridless excursions.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/8-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/9.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/10-3.jpg)
I think the ones from today are the best yet. Keep up the good work! I may very well steal several of these.
Thanks Akiva. I do think working on plain paper is helping.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/11.jpg)
Yes, there's considerably less "long hallway, with right angles!" clutter. It also tightens up room clusters, which looks more 'lived in' sensible. It's a big exercise you made for yourself, but it looks like it's bearing some fruit.
I also like the vertical cut-away one. It may seem limiting to draw perhaps, but I think that might be more of an issue of scale. You are showing room level detail, or a medium pull away, instead of strictly level detail, more of a far pull away. However, it comes off interesting all the same.
If the vertical stuff is hard, perhaps make it an inset. And then make the overhead map be a magnified level area of the inset.
I also like how your newer stuff seems to be adding new across-the-map terrain features besides 'rivers'.
And the hexagonal rooms are a plus, too. Have you thought about attempting a hive?
How many are we at now?
RPGPundit
Well, I made it as far as 19 before Christmas, with a few other non-presentable scribblings. I'll post them up now. I don't know if it's worth continuing to 30, although I do think I learned a few things over the ones I did finish. Happy New Year all.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/12-2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/13.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/14.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/15-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/16.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/17.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/18.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/19.jpg)
Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;612878(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/12-2.jpg)
Hmm...
Is it castle complex with towers and minarets with sky high walkways?
Or is it a dungeon with stairs leading to pit fissures?
Intriguing either way.
A good candidate for a vertical layout inset.
Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;612879(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/AndrewW/13.jpg)
Very city-esque. Not 'just a dungeon,' but so organized in a rather 'livable' way, that it gives good voice to "dungeon as underground city."
You could easily convert this to an above ground town or palatial estate structure.
Versatile.
Also with the 'river S' on the side it demands less attention, suggesting a confidence that it's important regardless. Good break away from habit.
I also like the cutaway dotted lines for overlapping paths and radiating hashes showing minor elevation drops. Suggests more between-level structures than merely stairs cleanly arriving to a uniformly even level.
Well, its past christmas but it was a worthwhile effort anyways.
RPGPundit