I think most designers don't pay much attention to the legal systems of their settings...and I wonder why? I'm not talking about rules here but rather discussions on the subject. Does anyone know of settings which pays attention to it's legal systems ?

I think Tribe 8 did a good job of weaving it's legal system into the setting but other then this game (I'm sure there are others), most seems to be pretty lacking in this area.

Regards,
David R

Shadowrun actually covered most of this ground in early supplements to the original edition of the game, but only shades of it still show up as I recall.

I hear there is a Balbinian game about lawyers in rome you could look into...:keke:

I think it's because PCs are just not law-abiding types. With even the slightest touch of legal realism, most PCs will be in jail very quickly. And then the players will be very upset and blame the GM.

"What, you mean that we called the television news cameras, so we were on tv and now everyone recognises us, when we beat up this guy the first time we gave him our names and he told his father who's a police detective, then we beat him up in a public place and left him in the rubbish in the alley and he had to go to hospital where the doctors are obliged to report suspected assaults, and now when we kidnapped him from his house just before the police were coming to arrest him on a murder charge... the police suspect us? How?! Ridiculous!"

And these were pretty intelligent people I had as players. But oh, the wails of distress...

I think this is the reason games and campaign settings handwave over legal stuff.

That's why now I run a postapocalyptic game. As one player put it, it's not about justice, it's about righteous fury. Things are only as lawful as a typical PC can handle

Vampire: the Masquerade did a good job of paying attention to the legal system vampires had developed for themselves, going so far as to discuss positions within the system, variations on it, etc.

Sharn: City of Towers also did a good job of taking some space to discuss the major laws of the City, which added a good bit of flavor and fun.

I agree that more games should pay some attention to this.

C.W. Richeson your Vampire example is an interesting aspect of a kind of "law" I'm talking about.

JimBob:

QuoteThings are only as lawful as a typical PC can handle

This is a vey interesting point...and frankly one which bugs me a lot. I think there is a default assumption that pcs - whatever the context - are above the law (most times) or that the law question is pretty irrelevent in games, so there is no point in discussing it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThis is a vey interesting point...and frankly one which bugs me a lot. I think there is a default assumption that pcs - whatever the context - are above the law (most times) or that the law question is pretty irrelevent in games, so there is no point in discussing it.

It's an assumption based on PC behaviour.

I've run and played in a Millenium's End campaign, a Recon campaign, and run a short Unknown Armies campaign. The GM has to really warp plausibility to keep the PCs out of jail within the first few sessions.

I'd blame Jack Bauer's character, except that PCs were like that long before that dreadful show was ever thought of. "He won't answer my question - I hit him!"
"He screams in pain."
"I bundle him in the back of the van and take him somewhere quiet."

For me, what I found was that GMs usually don't care that the PCs are running around assaulting and kidnapping and murdering people - it's just that the PCs make zero effort to cover their tracks. They give their names to their victims and then let them go. They find out someone's the son of a cop in the Armed Offender's Squad and then beat him up again. They develop a character with a criminal record (and therefore prints on file), then when they break into a rich guy's house to search it, don't wear gloves and leave their prints everywhere. When one of them is being interviewed by a cop, they slip up and mention the name of one of their fellow PCs, and when the GM asks them if they really said that, say, "yes, why wouldn't I?"

It's not that PCs are inherently criminal. It's that they're stupid criminals.

So you either have to create a setting in which the PCs are above the law - like Millenium's End sort of did - or in which there's not much law - like exploring the wilderness in D&D.

Most players aren't actually stupid, they're often quite smart. But they don't apply their intelligence during a game session, because they can't be arsed, "it's just a game." Of course there are plenty of exceptions, I wouldn't try to guess the ratio of players who use their intelligence to those who don't, but the fact is that just one or two goofy players in a game group mean the whole party is in trouble. And of course, many players find goofiness fun.

Again interesting points Jimbob but I was thinking more of designers not putting enough thought of "laws" into their setting design when I mentioned default assumptions.

Also I'm beginning to think that all this heroic play with the absense of any indepth discussions of laws seems pretty lame...and yeah, I know I'm going to get whacked for sayin' this.

Regards,
David R

Designers are gamers, too. So designers put into their games things they think will work, and omit or alter things they think will be a mess. Part of game design is understanding the nature of gamers, and the way things turn out at the game table. That's why for example games are designed to deal with munchkins - you could just cross your fingers and hope there'd be no munchkins, but then there will be and your game will get a reputation as being easy to munchkin out on. So you design it so that being a munchkin takes some effort, or so that it embraces munchkinism (see for example Rifts).

Game designers don't put legal stuff into their games because they know that PCs are generally stupid criminals. And a game where everyone ends up in jail is lame. Plus, half the time they wouldn't even end up in jail, they'd fight to the death rather than be captured by the cops. Which again, is lame.

Game designers try to design their games so that it doesn't end up lame at the game table.

Quote from: JimBobOzGame designers try to design their games so that it doesn't end up lame at the game table.

While I agree with most of what you said about gamers and game design...I still think that by not paying attention to laws of any variety games still end being lame...(Guess I'm in a Swine-ish mood today)

Regards,
David R

Oh well, then, you should write one.

I'm sure it'll sell very well - because heaps of gamers want "realism" in theory - and then be a mess at the game table - because in practice, "realism" ain't much fun for most gamers. So I predict your game will be much praised, but rarely played - like HeroQuest!

Quote from: JimBobOzOh well, then, you should write one.

I'm sure it'll sell very well - because heaps of gamers want "realism" in theory - and then be a mess at the game table - because in practice, "realism" ain't much fun for most gamers. So I predict your game will be much praised, but rarely played - like HeroQuest!

Wasn't talking about realism JimBob, just that ...the more I game and by this I mean create settings and the like, the more I want the setting to have an impact on the characters. The more I think about, laws in whatever shape they come in is a tool very rarely used by designers. Vampire is a good example of how laws can have an impact on pcs. More games IMO should pick up and use this tool.

Regards,
David R

Oh, so that's what you're on about? Law as a setting element? I thought you were talking about it in terms of modern sensible laws.

Well, that's a different matter. In my Tiwesdaeg campaigns, the law was very significant. Laws of inheritance were the driver of events in both campaigns, and the legal system of trial by combat, challenge and duel, and the moot going by whoever had the most people swear that you were telling the truth - that was happily used and abused by the PCs.

If it's a fair and reasonable legal system, PCs will come a-cropper. If it's some silly medieval arbitrary one based on violence and popularity and appealing to the mob, PCs do well indeed.

Try the RPGA Living Greyhawk campaign (D&D3.5).  There are areas where killing someone, regardles of circumstance, puts you in the mines for hard labor. There are always discussions about non-lethal damage and such. There are areas that don't allow magic or weapons or clerics competing with the state religion.

It's a huge, worldwide campaign, and they seem to really try to focus on character and role-playing - yeah, in D&D3.5.

It's interesting from a sheer logistical standpoint...

Trying to think of settings/suppliments where The Law came up/was developed/was a part of the game.  Judges Guild's original City State of the Invincible Overlord had it in there, and most every Waterdeep set had a good bit on the legal system (don't know about 3.x stuff though).  I seem to remember that one of the Morrow Project suppliments had something for that particular area.  Didn't Thieves World have law information?

Now how much any of this stuff was actually used is another question.

Quote from: SionEwigNow how much any of this stuff was actually used is another question.

I think most of this kind of stuff has very little appeal to gamers. In my games of late this suff has really "opened up" the setting and added a layer of verisimilitude that I had trouble establishing before.

Regards,
David R