QuoteSo you either have to create a setting in which the PCs are above the law - like Millenium's End sort of did - or in which there's not much law - like exploring the wilderness in D&D.

In ME, sure, the Lawyers of Blackeagle would protect us. But bulletts in the back of somebody? You better cover that up yourself.
Oh, and if you do some burglaring/SWAT style action in Miami - better leave no traces.

Or you go fight the Medellin cartel, but that´s more like D&D again.

Tekumel does a very good job with this. It's sometimes a little overbearing in the way that JimBob is worried about, but the flip side of that is that it also helps people seek clever roleplaying-based solutions to some problems in adventures, so it can balance out. And of course players can manipulate the complex legal codes as tools against their enemies as well.

Quote from: David RI think there is a default assumption that pcs - whatever the context - are above the law (most times) or that the law question is pretty irrelevent in games, so there is no point in discussing it.

In Nobilis, the PCs are above all mortal laws but not their own, and that's a major constraint on their actions. The consequences of conduct unbecoming to Nobles are closer to breaching the Masquerade in Vampire than, say, Paradox Backlashes in Mage, but living in an animistic universe puts a more serious spin on that: potentially, there might be social and legal repercussions to just about everything you do, and anything could witness your trespasses and hate you for them. In some games, killing an ogre will make you a celebrated hero. In Nob, it most probably would land you before the Court, charged with murder.

"Make me." Alternatively, "What are you going to do about it?"

Past a given point, PCs become a law unto themselves because their personal power is always greater than what the authorities can muster.  Games where this doesn't happen are either gimmick games, horror games, or boutique games that no one plays.  Because of that known phenominon, law enforcement and legal matters are left to being plot devices at best- and usually ignored outright.

I'm not fan of Skotos games, but the Castle Marrach (sp?) capitulary is a fantastic resource for this kind of thing. I think that it runs circles around most commercially published RPG products that deal with law and order, in fact.

Bradford C. I think is right when it comes to the majority of gamers. For my part without any constraints I don't find heroic acts particularly "heroic" and thankfully my players feel the same way.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker"Make me." Alternatively, "What are you going to do about it?"

Past a given point, PCs become a law unto themselves because their personal power is always greater than what the authorities can muster.  Games where this doesn't happen are either gimmick games, horror games, or boutique games that no one plays.  Because of that known phenominon, law enforcement and legal matters are left to being plot devices at best- and usually ignored outright.

So where would games like DP9's games fall in there? Gimmick? Horror? Boutique? Because...well...a battalion of Gears and armored vehicles is quite a bit more power than most PCs can muster; the same goes for 5,000 Joanites. There are plenty of games out there where the world is much bigger than the PCs.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker"Make me." Alternatively, "What are you going to do about it?"

Past a given point, PCs become a law unto themselves because their personal power is always greater than what the authorities can muster.  Games where this doesn't happen are either gimmick games, horror games, or boutique games that no one plays.  Because of that known phenominon, law enforcement and legal matters are left to being plot devices at best- and usually ignored outright.

To use another example from Praedor... Local laws vary from one realm to another and the PCs may get away with breaking any of them before moving on, but there is one rule which applies equally everywhere: never, ever, attack a sorceror. It's possible to catch one of them off-guard, and even kill him with common steel; but should you do that, you'll forfeit all protection of the law, and the others of their kind will hunt you down and sentence you to millennia of torture. And since the PCs often end up in situations which involve knowledge and artifacts forbidden by the sorcerors, well, you might want to watch your step.

(Besides, you couldn't hold off even a mortal city guard forever, and the main character of the original comic was eventually stabbed to death by a random street thug. It ain't Exalted.)

Quote from: WilThere are plenty of games out there where the world is much bigger than the PCs.

Yeah but those games are not real* rpgs...didn't you know ?

*I'm beginning to think real means "played by a lot of folks"

Regards,
David R

Traveller is a major exception to Walker's Law. There are two official adventure modules dealing with prison planets (which is where you end up if you mess with the Man... well, there or as a damp spot in the middle of a crater left by a plasma gun).

Then again, one fears that Traveller was and is The Game That Nobody Plays But Rather Uses to Construct Worlds and Starships With.

Quote from: David RI think most designers don't pay much attention to the legal systems of their settings...and I wonder why? I'm not talking about rules here but rather discussions on the subject. Does anyone know of settings which pays attention to it's legal systems ?

I think Tribe 8 did a good job of weaving it's legal system into the setting but other then this game (I'm sure there are others), most seems to be pretty lacking in this area.

Regards,
David R

I think background stuff including the legal structure and *especially* the economics of a world is very important stuff.

Here's why I don't think most game designers deal with it: most fiction doesn't deal with it. Detailing background usually = "exposition" which most authors use sparingly.

Exceptions would be really well-trod universes (e.g. Star Trek), where enough stories have been written that those kinds of things come up or stories that specifically deal with legal, economic, or other such elements.

There are (at least) 2 schools of thought on this:

1) The author ignores legal issues because they'd interfere with the story he's trying to tell. Example: House, the TV show, where the character regularly breaks and enters with no real consequences.  I don't think this is because the world is set in an alternate universe where that sort of thing is acceptable  -- it's because the writers prefer not to deal with it (yes, they have characters remark on the risks, no -- I don't think any real doctor would ever get away with that on a regular basis).

2) The author is aware of the legal framework and the characters act within it, without discussing it. This, I think, is also the solution to asking "why don't the guys in Star Trek use the transporters to do X" -- I think the answer is that (for reasons never clearly stated, but understood by competent experts) "X" is unfeasible.

#1 is less work, and since most works of fiction allow revision and editing, inconsistencies or miscommunication between the collaborators isn't a big deal. If the writers want Dr. House to get away with his latest exploit, they just write it that way. If one of the writers (or the actors or other creative or editorial staff) is confused or disagrees, they can work out their differences before shooting starts.

Approach 1 has some problems for RPG's where, by definition, not everyone's going to be on the same page, and re-writing or editing may be problematic (you *can* all out-of-game agree to ignore legal consequences -- or roll back the game to 'edit out' acts that would have game-damaging repercussions. I think most groups prefer not to).

Approach 1 has a serious advantage for it though: it's less work for the game designer (he doesn't have to write it) and less work for the players (they don't have to read and internalize all that stuff).

Approach 2 requires a lot more work on everyone's part and still doesn't neatly solve the not-on-the-same-page issue. It helps though.

I'm a "framework" guy. I want that background stuff. My game might not be about the legal system or the economic system, but I think games are richer for them and when I create a setting, those are things I at least try to think about.

In practice, I do stop games (hopefully before anything critical happens) if I think the PC's are about to take actions with serious legal consequences. Legal consequences (and even going to prison) can be a lot of fun, but they're not for all games and I'd prefer to make sure everyone's up for that (or at least up for that risk) before the heavy hand of the law comes crashing down.

Cheers,
-E.

City-State of the Invincible Overlord dedicates a few pages to the legal system.  In true Lawful Evil fashion, modifiers to the die roll include the relative social standing of the people in the case, the bribe given to the clerk, and what the weather's like that day.

-O

Quote from: obrynCity-State of the Invincible Overlord dedicates a few pages to the legal system.  In true Lawful Evil fashion, modifiers to the die roll include the relative social standing of the people in the case, the bribe given to the clerk, and what the weather's like that day.

City-State of the Invincible Overlord looks more Lawful Neutral or even Neutral to me.  Lawful Evil should be really nasty -- like pyramid temples running thick with the blood of human sacrifices, open cruelty against slaves, and so forth -- in my opinion.

Quote from: John MorrowCity-State of the Invincible Overlord looks more Lawful Neutral or even Neutral to me.  Lawful Evil should be really nasty -- like pyramid temples running thick with the blood of human sacrifices, open cruelty against slaves, and so forth -- in my opinion.

I think it's just about right - it's just a lowercase "e".

-O

Quote from: John MorrowCity-State of the Invincible Overlord looks more Lawful Neutral or even Neutral to me.  Lawful Evil should be really nasty -- like pyramid temples running thick with the blood of human sacrifices, open cruelty against slaves, and so forth -- in my opinion.

IIRC, the book for CSIO states that it is a Lawful Evil city, but the section in the  Wilderlands box set lists it as Lawful Neutral (I may have the two confused but regardless, there are two different alignments in two different products).  Now that may just be shoddy editing or the folks at Necromancer Games had the same arguements.  Personally I go with the city as LN but with a decidedly LE Overlord.