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I think most designers don't pay much attention to the legal systems of their settings...and I wonder why? I'm not talking about rules here but rather discussions on the subject. Does anyone know of settings which pays attention to it's legal systems ?

I think Tribe 8 did a good job of weaving it's legal system into the setting but other then this game (I'm sure there are others), most seems to be pretty lacking in this area.

Regards,
David R

Shadowrun actually covered most of this ground in early supplements to the original edition of the game, but only shades of it still show up as I recall.

I hear there is a Balbinian game about lawyers in rome you could look into...:keke:

I think it's because PCs are just not law-abiding types. With even the slightest touch of legal realism, most PCs will be in jail very quickly. And then the players will be very upset and blame the GM.

"What, you mean that we called the television news cameras, so we were on tv and now everyone recognises us, when we beat up this guy the first time we gave him our names and he told his father who's a police detective, then we beat him up in a public place and left him in the rubbish in the alley and he had to go to hospital where the doctors are obliged to report suspected assaults, and now when we kidnapped him from his house just before the police were coming to arrest him on a murder charge... the police suspect us? How?! Ridiculous!"

And these were pretty intelligent people I had as players. But oh, the wails of distress...

I think this is the reason games and campaign settings handwave over legal stuff.

That's why now I run a postapocalyptic game. As one player put it, it's not about justice, it's about righteous fury. Things are only as lawful as a typical PC can handle :p

Vampire: the Masquerade did a good job of paying attention to the legal system vampires had developed for themselves, going so far as to discuss positions within the system, variations on it, etc.

Sharn: City of Towers also did a good job of taking some space to discuss the major laws of the City, which added a good bit of flavor and fun.

I agree that more games should pay some attention to this.

C.W. Richeson your Vampire example is an interesting aspect of a kind of "law" I'm talking about.

JimBob:

QuoteThings are only as lawful as a typical PC can handle

This is a vey interesting point...and frankly one which bugs me a lot. I think there is a default assumption that pcs - whatever the context - are above the law (most times) or that the law question is pretty irrelevent in games, so there is no point in discussing it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThis is a vey interesting point...and frankly one which bugs me a lot. I think there is a default assumption that pcs - whatever the context - are above the law (most times) or that the law question is pretty irrelevent in games, so there is no point in discussing it.

It's an assumption based on PC behaviour.

I've run and played in a Millenium's End campaign, a Recon campaign, and run a short Unknown Armies campaign. The GM has to really warp plausibility to keep the PCs out of jail within the first few sessions.

I'd blame Jack Bauer's character, except that PCs were like that long before that dreadful show was ever thought of. "He won't answer my question - I hit him!"
"He screams in pain."
"I bundle him in the back of the van and take him somewhere quiet."

For me, what I found was that GMs usually don't care that the PCs are running around assaulting and kidnapping and murdering people - it's just that the PCs make zero effort to cover their tracks. They give their names to their victims and then let them go. They find out someone's the son of a cop in the Armed Offender's Squad and then beat him up again. They develop a character with a criminal record (and therefore prints on file), then when they break into a rich guy's house to search it, don't wear gloves and leave their prints everywhere. When one of them is being interviewed by a cop, they slip up and mention the name of one of their fellow PCs, and when the GM asks them if they really said that, say, "yes, why wouldn't I?"

It's not that PCs are inherently criminal. It's that they're stupid criminals.

So you either have to create a setting in which the PCs are above the law - like Millenium's End sort of did - or in which there's not much law - like exploring the wilderness in D&D.

Most players aren't actually stupid, they're often quite smart. But they don't apply their intelligence during a game session, because they can't be arsed, "it's just a game." Of course there are plenty of exceptions, I wouldn't try to guess the ratio of players who use their intelligence to those who don't, but the fact is that just one or two goofy players in a game group mean the whole party is in trouble. And of course, many players find goofiness fun.

Again interesting points Jimbob but I was thinking more of designers not putting enough thought of "laws" into their setting design when I mentioned default assumptions.

Also I'm beginning to think that all this heroic play with the absense of any indepth discussions of laws seems pretty lame...and yeah, I know I'm going to get whacked for sayin' this.

Regards,
David R

Designers are gamers, too. So designers put into their games things they think will work, and omit or alter things they think will be a mess. Part of game design is understanding the nature of gamers, and the way things turn out at the game table. That's why for example games are designed to deal with munchkins - you could just cross your fingers and hope there'd be no munchkins, but then there will be and your game will get a reputation as being easy to munchkin out on. So you design it so that being a munchkin takes some effort, or so that it embraces munchkinism (see for example Rifts).

Game designers don't put legal stuff into their games because they know that PCs are generally stupid criminals. And a game where everyone ends up in jail is lame. Plus, half the time they wouldn't even end up in jail, they'd fight to the death rather than be captured by the cops. Which again, is lame.

Game designers try to design their games so that it doesn't end up lame at the game table.

Quote from: JimBobOzGame designers try to design their games so that it doesn't end up lame at the game table.

While I agree with most of what you said about gamers and game design...I still think that by not paying attention to laws of any variety games still end being lame...(Guess I'm in a Swine-ish mood today)

Regards,
David R

Oh well, then, you should write one.

I'm sure it'll sell very well - because heaps of gamers want "realism" in theory - and then be a mess at the game table - because in practice, "realism" ain't much fun for most gamers. So I predict your game will be much praised, but rarely played - like HeroQuest! :D

Quote from: JimBobOzOh well, then, you should write one.

I'm sure it'll sell very well - because heaps of gamers want "realism" in theory - and then be a mess at the game table - because in practice, "realism" ain't much fun for most gamers. So I predict your game will be much praised, but rarely played - like HeroQuest! :D

Wasn't talking about realism JimBob, just that ...the more I game and by this I mean create settings and the like, the more I want the setting to have an impact on the characters. The more I think about, laws in whatever shape they come in is a tool very rarely used by designers. Vampire is a good example of how laws can have an impact on pcs. More games IMO should pick up and use this tool.

Regards,
David R

Oh, so that's what you're on about? Law as a setting element? I thought you were talking about it in terms of modern sensible laws.

Well, that's a different matter. In my Tiwesdaeg campaigns, the law was very significant. Laws of inheritance were the driver of events in both campaigns, and the legal system of trial by combat, challenge and duel, and the moot going by whoever had the most people swear that you were telling the truth - that was happily used and abused by the PCs.

If it's a fair and reasonable legal system, PCs will come a-cropper. If it's some silly medieval arbitrary one based on violence and popularity and appealing to the mob, PCs do well indeed.

Try the RPGA Living Greyhawk campaign (D&D3.5).  There are areas where killing someone, regardles of circumstance, puts you in the mines for hard labor. There are always discussions about non-lethal damage and such. There are areas that don't allow magic or weapons or clerics competing with the state religion.

It's a huge, worldwide campaign, and they seem to really try to focus on character and role-playing - yeah, in D&D3.5.

It's interesting from a sheer logistical standpoint...

Trying to think of settings/suppliments where The Law came up/was developed/was a part of the game.  Judges Guild's original City State of the Invincible Overlord had it in there, and most every Waterdeep set had a good bit on the legal system (don't know about 3.x stuff though).  I seem to remember that one of the Morrow Project suppliments had something for that particular area.  Didn't Thieves World have law information?

Now how much any of this stuff was actually used is another question.:D

Quote from: SionEwigNow how much any of this stuff was actually used is another question.:D

I think most of this kind of stuff has very little appeal to gamers. In my games of late this suff has really "opened up" the setting and added a layer of verisimilitude that I had trouble establishing before.

Regards,
David R

QuoteSo you either have to create a setting in which the PCs are above the law - like Millenium's End sort of did - or in which there's not much law - like exploring the wilderness in D&D.

In ME, sure, the Lawyers of Blackeagle would protect us. But bulletts in the back of somebody? You better cover that up yourself.
Oh, and if you do some burglaring/SWAT style action in Miami - better leave no traces.

Or you go fight the Medellin cartel, but that´s more like D&D again.

Tekumel does a very good job with this. It's sometimes a little overbearing in the way that JimBob is worried about, but the flip side of that is that it also helps people seek clever roleplaying-based solutions to some problems in adventures, so it can balance out. And of course players can manipulate the complex legal codes as tools against their enemies as well.

Quote from: David RI think there is a default assumption that pcs - whatever the context - are above the law (most times) or that the law question is pretty irrelevent in games, so there is no point in discussing it.

In Nobilis, the PCs are above all mortal laws but not their own (http://www.mygurps.com/nobilis/code.html), and that's a major constraint on their actions. The consequences of conduct unbecoming to Nobles are closer to breaching the Masquerade in Vampire than, say, Paradox Backlashes in Mage, but living in an animistic universe puts a more serious spin on that: potentially, there might be social and legal repercussions to just about everything you do, and anything could witness your trespasses and hate you for them. In some games, killing an ogre will make you a celebrated hero. In Nob, it most probably would land you before the Court, charged with murder.

"Make me." Alternatively, "What are you going to do about it?"

Past a given point, PCs become a law unto themselves because their personal power is always greater than what the authorities can muster.  Games where this doesn't happen are either gimmick games, horror games, or boutique games that no one plays.  Because of that known phenominon, law enforcement and legal matters are left to being plot devices at best- and usually ignored outright.

I'm not fan of Skotos games, but the Castle Marrach (sp?) capitulary is a fantastic resource for this kind of thing. I think that it runs circles around most commercially published RPG products that deal with law and order, in fact.

Bradford C. I think is right when it comes to the majority of gamers. For my part without any constraints I don't find heroic acts particularly "heroic" and thankfully my players feel the same way.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker"Make me." Alternatively, "What are you going to do about it?"

Past a given point, PCs become a law unto themselves because their personal power is always greater than what the authorities can muster.  Games where this doesn't happen are either gimmick games, horror games, or boutique games that no one plays.  Because of that known phenominon, law enforcement and legal matters are left to being plot devices at best- and usually ignored outright.

So where would games like DP9's games fall in there? Gimmick? Horror? Boutique? Because...well...a battalion of Gears and armored vehicles is quite a bit more power than most PCs can muster; the same goes for 5,000 Joanites. There are plenty of games out there where the world is much bigger than the PCs.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker"Make me." Alternatively, "What are you going to do about it?"

Past a given point, PCs become a law unto themselves because their personal power is always greater than what the authorities can muster.  Games where this doesn't happen are either gimmick games, horror games, or boutique games that no one plays.  Because of that known phenominon, law enforcement and legal matters are left to being plot devices at best- and usually ignored outright.

To use another example from Praedor... Local laws vary from one realm to another and the PCs may get away with breaking any of them before moving on, but there is one rule which applies equally everywhere: never, ever, attack a sorceror. It's possible to catch one of them off-guard, and even kill him with common steel; but should you do that, you'll forfeit all protection of the law, and the others of their kind will hunt you down and sentence you to millennia of torture. And since the PCs often end up in situations which involve knowledge and artifacts forbidden by the sorcerors, well, you might want to watch your step.

(Besides, you couldn't hold off even a mortal city guard forever, and the main character of the original comic was eventually stabbed to death by a random street thug. It ain't Exalted.)

Quote from: WilThere are plenty of games out there where the world is much bigger than the PCs.

Yeah but those games are not real* rpgs...didn't you know ?

*I'm beginning to think real means "played by a lot of folks" :D

Regards,
David R

Traveller is a major exception to Walker's Law. There are two official adventure modules dealing with prison planets (which is where you end up if you mess with the Man... well, there or as a damp spot in the middle of a crater left by a plasma gun).

Then again, one fears that Traveller was and is The Game That Nobody Plays But Rather Uses to Construct Worlds and Starships With.

Quote from: David RI think most designers don't pay much attention to the legal systems of their settings...and I wonder why? I'm not talking about rules here but rather discussions on the subject. Does anyone know of settings which pays attention to it's legal systems ?

I think Tribe 8 did a good job of weaving it's legal system into the setting but other then this game (I'm sure there are others), most seems to be pretty lacking in this area.

Regards,
David R

I think background stuff including the legal structure and *especially* the economics of a world is very important stuff.

Here's why I don't think most game designers deal with it: most fiction doesn't deal with it. Detailing background usually = "exposition" which most authors use sparingly.

Exceptions would be really well-trod universes (e.g. Star Trek), where enough stories have been written that those kinds of things come up or stories that specifically deal with legal, economic, or other such elements.

There are (at least) 2 schools of thought on this:

1) The author ignores legal issues because they'd interfere with the story he's trying to tell. Example: House, the TV show, where the character regularly breaks and enters with no real consequences.  I don't think this is because the world is set in an alternate universe where that sort of thing is acceptable  -- it's because the writers prefer not to deal with it (yes, they have characters remark on the risks, no -- I don't think any real doctor would ever get away with that on a regular basis).

2) The author is aware of the legal framework and the characters act within it, without discussing it. This, I think, is also the solution to asking "why don't the guys in Star Trek use the transporters to do X" -- I think the answer is that (for reasons never clearly stated, but understood by competent experts) "X" is unfeasible.

#1 is less work, and since most works of fiction allow revision and editing, inconsistencies or miscommunication between the collaborators isn't a big deal. If the writers want Dr. House to get away with his latest exploit, they just write it that way. If one of the writers (or the actors or other creative or editorial staff) is confused or disagrees, they can work out their differences before shooting starts.

Approach 1 has some problems for RPG's where, by definition, not everyone's going to be on the same page, and re-writing or editing may be problematic (you *can* all out-of-game agree to ignore legal consequences -- or roll back the game to 'edit out' acts that would have game-damaging repercussions. I think most groups prefer not to).

Approach 1 has a serious advantage for it though: it's less work for the game designer (he doesn't have to write it) and less work for the players (they don't have to read and internalize all that stuff).

Approach 2 requires a lot more work on everyone's part and still doesn't neatly solve the not-on-the-same-page issue. It helps though.

I'm a "framework" guy. I want that background stuff. My game might not be about the legal system or the economic system, but I think games are richer for them and when I create a setting, those are things I at least try to think about.

In practice, I do stop games (hopefully before anything critical happens) if I think the PC's are about to take actions with serious legal consequences. Legal consequences (and even going to prison) can be a lot of fun, but they're not for all games and I'd prefer to make sure everyone's up for that (or at least up for that risk) before the heavy hand of the law comes crashing down.

Cheers,
-E.

City-State of the Invincible Overlord dedicates a few pages to the legal system.  In true Lawful Evil fashion, modifiers to the die roll include the relative social standing of the people in the case, the bribe given to the clerk, and what the weather's like that day.

-O

Quote from: obrynCity-State of the Invincible Overlord dedicates a few pages to the legal system.  In true Lawful Evil fashion, modifiers to the die roll include the relative social standing of the people in the case, the bribe given to the clerk, and what the weather's like that day.

City-State of the Invincible Overlord looks more Lawful Neutral or even Neutral to me.  Lawful Evil should be really nasty -- like pyramid temples running thick with the blood of human sacrifices, open cruelty against slaves, and so forth -- in my opinion.

Quote from: John MorrowCity-State of the Invincible Overlord looks more Lawful Neutral or even Neutral to me.  Lawful Evil should be really nasty -- like pyramid temples running thick with the blood of human sacrifices, open cruelty against slaves, and so forth -- in my opinion.

I think it's just about right - it's just a lowercase "e". :)

-O

Quote from: John MorrowCity-State of the Invincible Overlord looks more Lawful Neutral or even Neutral to me.  Lawful Evil should be really nasty -- like pyramid temples running thick with the blood of human sacrifices, open cruelty against slaves, and so forth -- in my opinion.

IIRC, the book for CSIO states that it is a Lawful Evil city, but the section in the  Wilderlands box set lists it as Lawful Neutral (I may have the two confused but regardless, there are two different alignments in two different products).  Now that may just be shoddy editing or the folks at Necromancer Games had the same arguements.  Personally I go with the city as LN but with a decidedly LE Overlord.

Warhammer has some detail on falling afoul of the legal system and dealing with your day in court - in the Marienburg: Sold Down The River setting book for 1st edition and in the WFRP Companion for 2nd Edition.  Since you're usually playing everyday schmoes and dealing with a medieval culture paranoid about infiltration by Chaos, it was certainly something that came up a lot in my group's games.  (I even started out an adventure with the PCs being arrested and having to stand trial in court...)

Ars Magica seemed pretty concerned about different types of law, too, from dealing with secular nobles and the Church to hermetic law within the Order of Hermes.  It was presented in 3rd and 4th editions as something that the PCs would probably have to deal with fairly often - the act of magi operating a Covenant in itself, much less traveling abroad to collect vis or seek regio or whatever, required dealing with the laws of the land so as not to tick anybody off and spark a Crusade.

Oh, and I almost forgot: I don't recall how much of an actual legal system it presented, but the old Ghostbusters RPG had tables for dealing with bureaucracies of all kinds, from the EPA to the IRS.  What I wouldn't do to have copies of those tables again...

In my current StarCluster IRC game, which Marco is in, the culture the PCs have come into is an extremely rich, extraordinarily high tech world which is ruled by a cloned Queen. The basis for all government, law, and society is trust - the People must trust the government, and the government must trust the People. There is no government if there is no trust - loss of trust will bring down a government. Extraordinary license is given those who earn that trust, and violation of trust is the ultimate crime and societal wrong.

It is legal, and considered morally right, to kill the Queen if she does not keep the trust of the People. If a Queen dies, the various clones - each backed by a Major House - appoint a Champion or Champions who can do what they like so long as the People see their actions as right and proper. If the Champions screw up, the claimant pays - either by giving up the claim and leaving, or by putting her head on the block. The weaker claimants flee the world and give up any ambition to rule. the stronger claimants vie to have the last Champion standing. When there is only one claimant left, she is Revealed as the Heir, and is eventually crowned.

For example, in the current situation, the strongest claimant was behind the assassination, but less than a day later repudiated her Champions and fled the world because her Champions bungled the assassination and bystanders were harmed. The maneuver was seen as awkward, thus the claimant excercised poor judgement, thus she was not worthy of being Queen. The ex-Champions, however, will not be tried for the assassination - all responsibility for the acts of the Champions is taken by the claimant.

In the meantime, between the death of the old Queen and the crowning of the Heir, there is no higher world government.

The PCs have been named Champions of one of the claimants, and will not suffer consequences for their actions, however - if they choose wrongly, screw up, look bad, or are caught cheating - their claimant will suffer the ultimate price. The fact that their claimant holds positions that they passionately believe in, and the fact that they will materially benefit from this association of their claimant is the one left standing, makes it all very interesting.

-clash

Dang, everyone else beat me to the good ones.  I've only ever used the legal systems extensively in Shadowrun, City State of the Invincible Overlord, and Tekumel.  As others noted earlier, the designers in those games did a good job of integrating the legal system with the rest of the game so that it just seemed to flow rather than impede play.

Having Lone Star always on the mind of runners kept some of them from doing some really boneheaded things (not always though) and in CSOIO I actually ran a game around the players getting tossed into jail for insulting a noble.  Since the Wraith Overlord supplement lists the lower levels of the jail it made for a great sewer break out adventure.

I agree with the OP, working the law into games can be a real benefit.