Quote from: Abyssal Maw in another threadThere's the famous "99% of all gamers don't actually have fun" claim, and the strangely non-ironic thread about how indie authors should get special treatment at conventions because they know so much about fun. (note the last two bullets). This was funny because the original motivation of the thread is a complaint that their panels and slots don't actually get much attendance.

Jesus-Christ-on-a-Pogo-Stick, that link burns my britches.  Forgite "abzu", apparently the author of Burning Wheel, complains about being treated like "a regular GM" at a con he signed up to run games at.  The affrontery!  How dare those plebes running the convention not treat some guy demoing a game as an RPG Superstar!  He's a very important person!  Not like the dickspittle running a shitty demo the year before, or the two who ran demos the year before that, etc.

Quote from: abzu, being a dickNo bullshit about filling out game sheets, turning in tickets or other crap that regular GMs do. I NEVER do this stuff. I put the tickets in my pockets and then forget about them and throw them away when I get home. You know why, because I'm too busy running games. If this is important to you, have the handler do it. I'm not doing it any more. I'm literally going to take any sheets or tickets and throw them away in front of you.

You think the con staff likes all that stupid paperwork any more than you do, dillweed?  Oh, sure, you're delighted to take the players that the con organizers set you up with, but god forfend they ask you for a little feedback.  That's for mere mortal GMs.

It's attitudes like these that make me think maybe Pundit is right to refer to some people in the hobby as swine.

So, you're clearly reading this as a post filled with a sense of entitlement.

And then I read it and say "Well, this is Luke saying 'Here's what I want, and here's what I won't stand for, and it's not like the cons are going to wither and die if they tell me to buzz off, so I'm gonna put the decision in their hands and they can decide what they want to do.' "

Which is, basically, what he's done since.  He doesn't attend all conventions, and I haven't seen him post a single word (good or ill) about the ones he's stopped attending.  He just stops attending.  He and they can't reach common ground, and so they don't.

Is there something in the post that you can convince me (as a person who actually knows Luke and knows that he's not a prima donna) is bad medicine?  Or is it purely your emotional read of entitlement and elitism?

'cuz, y'know, the former would make for a good discussion but the latter just makes for hot air on both sides.

Yeah, I have lost all respect for Luke.

In a thread over @ RPG.net he jumped all over me about saying that I would like more setting info in the book. This is after I praised the game, probly more than any game I have ever talked on RPG.net about.

He went into this crap about how I don't understand the theory behind the design and all of that. Bunch of crap. I understand the theory , it's not fucking hard understand.

If I were to label anyone swine, he'd be the one.

Quote from: McrowIn a thread over @ RPG.net he jumped all over me about saying that I would like more setting info in the book. This is after I praised the game, probly more than any game I have ever talked on RPG.net about.

Got a link so people can make their own first-hand judgments?

TonyLB: Please explain to me what he meant when he said "I was treated like a regular GM".  To my eyes the implication is clear: "I should have been treated differently than those other GMs."

Quote from: TonyLBGot a link so people can make their own first-hand judgments?

can't find it. I don't remember the name of the thread. I did find the first thread where is was more well behaved, but I couldn't find the second one.

*shrug*  I read it as saying that he was treated like a regular GM.  Which, y'know, I gather he was.

If I try hard to read between the lines then I can read it as "I like the cons where they treat a designer running their own game as something special."  Perhaps even as strong as "I think I'll restrict myself to going to the cons where they treat a designer as special."  But certainly not (to my eyes) "The con staff are morally bankrupt because they didn't treat me any differently from a regular GM."

I mean, I like (for instance) Double Exposure conventions.  A lot.  I go, they treat me like a rock star, they provide everything I need.  If you gave me a choice between going to a Double-Ex convention and going to some random convention that doesn't treat me as well I'd go to the Double-Ex.  Seems obvious, doesn't it?

Since I really don't have the time to do a whole lot more than the various Double-Exposure conventions and GenCon, why should I go anywhere that doesn't do this stuff?  And if that's the bare minimum that a convention needs to provide to even get on my radar screen, why should I hide that fact?

Quote from: Mcrowcan't find it. I don't remember the name of the thread. I did find the first thread where is was more well behaved, but I couldn't find the second one.

Fair 'nuff.  A bit of a shame, but threads do go missing.  Thanks for trying!

Quote from: TonyLBI mean, I like (for instance) Double Exposure conventions.  A lot.  I go, they treat me like a rock star, they provide everything I need.  If you gave me a choice between going to a Double-Ex convention and going to some random convention that doesn't treat me as well I'd go to the Double-Ex.  Seems obvious, doesn't it?

Actually, that only seems obvious if your goal is being treated like a rockstar.  I don't go to cons to be treated like a rock star.  I go to rock out.  The difference between the two is vast.  I've seen Blue Oyster Cult rock out on a tiny stage in a shitty biker bar in Rantoul, Illinois (population: 12,857).  You can bet your ass that there weren't any gold-plated hookers backstage.

QuoteSince I really don't have the time to do a whole lot more than the various Double-Exposure conventions and GenCon, why should I go anywhere that doesn't do this stuff?  And if that's the bare minimum that a convention needs to provide to even get on my radar screen, why should I hide that fact?

That's fair.  Just like my local con makes of letting everbody know that game designers don't get special priviledges, aside from some space at which they can run free demos.

Quote from: TonyLB*shrug*  I read it as saying that he was treated like a regular GM.  Which, y'know, I gather he was.

If I try hard to read between the lines then I can read it as "I like the cons where they treat a designer running their own game as something special."  Perhaps even as strong as "I think I'll restrict myself to going to the cons where they treat a designer as special."  But certainly not (to my eyes) "The con staff are morally bankrupt because they didn't treat me any differently from a regular GM."

I mean, I like (for instance) Double Exposure conventions.  A lot.  I go, they treat me like a rock star, they provide everything I need.  If you gave me a choice between going to a Double-Ex convention and going to some random convention that doesn't treat me as well I'd go to the Double-Ex.  Seems obvious, doesn't it?

Since I really don't have the time to do a whole lot more than the various Double-Exposure conventions and GenCon, why should I go anywhere that doesn't do this stuff?  And if that's the bare minimum that a convention needs to provide to even get on my radar screen, why should I hide that fact?

What you're missing is that he

1) Signed up for these con's without clarifying the ground rules
2) Went there, played by the rules everyone else does
3) Went on the Internet and complained about it

Now -- going forward -- he can act with integrity. And he says he's going to. He's going to show everyone his list of requirements and if they don't meet them, he won't go.

That's great.

And if he'd done that in the first place, then there wouldn't need to be a thread full of complaining that he wasn't treated special.

But the truth is, he did expect to be treated special. Even though no one promised him that. And when he wasn't, he got pissy.

That's, you know, not showing a great deal of integrity.

And it's showing a sense of -- you got it -- entitlement. See that: an unstated expectation that he be treated special... because he's a designer. See how that works: he didn't expect to need to ask for what he wanted. He expected it to be given to him. And now he's pissed.

Sense of Entitlement.

This could be a dictionary definition.

It looks like he learned his lesson though, and that's a good thing. But I'm surpirsed at you:

You seem to believe that people shouldn't have expectations of others that are unstated. Now, I disagree with that in a personal, friendship relationship... but in a *business* relationship?

Absolutely.

He should have known better. Now he does. He ought to be posting about how thankful he is to those small-con organizers who treated him like everyone else, for showing him the truth: that he expects to be treated specially.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: -E.But the truth is, he did expect to be treated special. Even though no one promised him that. And when he wasn't, he got pissy.

Mmmm ... open to interpretation.

He calls out two conventions as having embarrassed themselves.  Now there are two facts that are pointed out:  One, they did not promise to go out of their way to support indie designers.  Two, they did promise to do certain things (about scheduling and promotion, mainly) and failed to do those things.

Luke doesn't say why he feels the conventions embarrassed themselves, so attaching that statement to both, or neither, or one or the other of these things is speculation on our part.

Me, in his place?  I'd have been clear what I was talking about.  He wasn't.  That's a shame.

Quote from: jrientsActually, that only seems obvious if your goal is being treated like a rockstar.  I don't go to cons to be treated like a rock star.  I go to rock out.  The difference between the two is vast.  I've seen Blue Oyster Cult rock out on a tiny stage in a shitty biker bar in Rantoul, Illinois (population: 12,857).  You can bet your ass that there weren't any gold-plated hookers backstage.

Solid point.  My goal at conventions is also to rock out.  I find that my ability to rock out is enhanced by ... well ... the points that Luke brings up, honestly.  I expressed that poorly here.  Not only does Double Exposure treat me like a rock star, they systematically make it possible for me to rock out.

I play better when I don't have to wade through paperwork.  I play better when I'm hydrated and fed (which happens more reliably at a convention where food is brought to guests).  In comparing to most other conventions, all other things are damn near equal, and these things make a difference to me getting and giving as much fun as I can at the con.

But there is the huge exception, of course.  Like I said, I go to GenCon.  You can be quite sure that GenCon staff members are not bringing me gatorade ... I mean ... LOL.  They don't even know I exist.  But I go there anyway, because the rock-out quotient's way the hell up there.

Quote from: TonyLBMmmm ... open to interpretation.

He calls out two conventions as having embarrassed themselves.  Now there are two facts that are pointed out:  One, they did not promise to go out of their way to support indie designers.  Two, they did promise to do certain things (about scheduling and promotion, mainly) and failed to do those things.

Luke doesn't say why he feels the conventions embarrassed themselves, so attaching that statement to both, or neither, or one or the other of these things is speculation on our part.

Me, in his place?  I'd have been clear what I was talking about.  He wasn't.  That's a shame.

Hmm... apparently even the primary sources aren't good enough, huh?

Ultimately people are going to make their decisions based on incomplete data -- everyone does. There's never enough information to completely understand a non-trivial subject.

So you don't think we have enough information to understand the poster or his frame of mind.

I think we do. I think that when he says he doesn't expect him or his crew to fill out paper work or turn in tickets or do anything else, I think I can make some pretty clear judgements about that. He ran some games at a Con and no one shows up... he calls that embarassing for them.

I dunno man... that seems pretty clear to me.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: McrowYeah, I have lost all respect for Luke.

Same here.  What a prima donna.

to be fair, while I did have it out with Luke for a short bit @ RPG.net, I think what he said in the above quote is being taken out context.

I think when he said regular GM's, I think he just mean people who GM at cons all the time. I didn't take tickets @ Gencon or do any paper work for the same reasons he didn't. I just want to game, and give the players a good game. Not be hassled by paperwork.