Quote from: daniel_ream;908375... yet the notion that there are all these dungeons with perfectly dressed rectilinear 10' dressed flagstone corridors with no air or sump pumps passes without comment.

Well, of course not.  Arguing about the utter inanity of the standard D&D "dungeon" was something I did once back in the APA days.

... 35+ years ago, when I was much younger and much dumber, and honestly believed that I could get through to people if I were only eloquent enough.

If there was ever the Mother of Lost Causes in terms of RPG discussions, I think that one would have to top the list.

Quote from: Ravenswing;908406If there was ever the Mother of Lost Causes in terms of RPG discussions, I think that one would have to top the list.

And yet we're still dickering about parabolic arcs and the viscosity of lamp oil.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;908396Like most smart Sierra packers, I carry a bear canister for my food. As I'm setting up camp for the night, a golden-mantled ground squirrel appears and starts making a fucking nuisance of itself. A couple of times I catch him gnawing on top of the bear can - I still have tooth marks on it today from that little shit. I keep shooing him away but he just won't give up. Finally it's time for me to make dinner so I sit down on a rock and prepare to open the can - and this little fucker literally jumps on my back. I can feel his gawddamn little rodent claws through my shirt. I chased him off again, got my food going, and for the most part he stayed away after that.

Thinking about it during dinner, I understood this was learned behavior. That rat-sonofabitch had figured out, from scores of careless, clueless packers before me, that containers would be left open and by surprising someone as they opened the container he might get them to spill the contents.

A fucking rat, with a little fucking rat-brain, figured this out.

This has all the makings of a good encounter.

Quote from: tenbones;908418This has all the makings of a good encounter.

Results may well rival the legendary Gazebo encounter.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;908362I wouldn't even be sure whether the majority of players would agree on what fantasy dungeon is and what it is not. I mean, sure, you look at some crypt filled with skeletons and say "it's a dungeon, alright", but heck - Tolkien's (or rather "Jackson's") Moria or caverns big enough to contain whole palaces (and some indeed containing such pieces of an architecture) are dungeons too. Or are they?

because it turns out at least one didn't think that a building without walls might still be a functional building, or something like that. :rolleyes:

1: D&D abstracted the term, and monster. Dungeon was a catchall for any underground structure, sometimes extended to cover castles and whatever. But over time it narrowed down to mostly refer to any underground structure that wasnt a cave complex or underground city. Monster was anything not part of the player party. Though over time too thats narrowed down to Monsters and NPCs. And NPC is pretty broad too. Other games either dont define it at all or have some variations on D&Ds use.

2: Wait? You mean its not a ruin or a corral? :confused:
aheh. For me what I see way too much is a borderline insane insistence on broadening some definition to the point it is effectively "everything on earth"

Quote from: Bren;908184It affects the rate of fire of missile weapons. I'm honestly not sure what to make of firing a bow vs. a crossbow in a D&D 1 minute round. Whereas a 3 second round means that a blackpowder musket will take at least 5 rounds to reload - longer for a matchlock - so combat is likely to be over before the shooter can ever reload. (Obviously this would change if most melee rounds are spent evaluating, resting, sidestepping, or whiffing.)

More like 3-4 ish minimum if you know what you are doing its surprising how fast you can shoot them.
To be fair thats more line tactics shoot at this line of guys as fast as you can sort of shooting.

Quote from: Krimson;908240Well it certainly makes me think twice before getting involved in a game. I do tend to ask now what real world knowledge I need to run the game and if lack of it will ruin it for the players.

I feel bad for you its star trek not the us navy.
Theres really no reason that it should have ended the campaign.

Quote from: yosemitemike;908278There are some very dangerous herbivorous species.  I wouldn't call a hippopotamus peaceful though.  They're territorial and very aggressive.

Or even the commen domestic cow.
Any animal can be dangerous.
The question is how dangerous and how hard is it to make them that way.

Quote from: Omega;908288You wouldnt need a codex. Most animals large enough to be a threat to a human will react much the same. If hungry they'll size up the chances and attack if favourable. If cornered they'll size up the chances and attack if favourable, if protecting young they'll size up chances and attack if favourable. If startled or surprised the'll run then size up chances and attack if favourable. If territorial they'll size up the chances and attack if favourable. If in mating season flip a coin and they attack. Increase the chance they'll think its favourable if they outnumber you or are larger than you.

EG: Just like a human will. Theres not alot of reaction difference between a pack of wolves and a band of brigands. The difference is they often come at those reactions or tactics from different thought processes and sensory data than a human might. Some tactics are more primitive to be sure. But can still be very effective.

We did one mini D&D campaign that revolved exclusively around natural threats with no magical backup at all. Just fighters, thieves, and non-magic rangers.

Well its not quite that simple.
But it would probably work as a good rule of thumb.
The big thing is that animals dont really reason about favorable vs non favorable quite the same way people do.
Also adding one about protecting young.

Quote from: Ravenswing;908348I'd argue the contrary: most fantasy dungeons nowhere near have ceilings high enough to lob flasks over the front ranks.  Take a good close look at those videos.  For anyone NOT in a front-rank position trying to toss something just over the head of the guy right in front of him, the arcs are fifteen, twenty feet high.  If they're fighting in a cathedral or a ballroom, sure, but seriously, outside of an atrium, theatre, shopping mall or enclosed performance space, where do you see a ceiling that high?

If I was a sword-and-board guy standing within arm's reach of a goblin with a firebomb, my reaction wouldn't be like your average riot police and a "You first, sir."  I'd do my level best to gut the sonuvabitch.

That wouldn't work either; it's not nearly as volatile as people imagine.  A standard trick is to get a pot of kerosene and toss lit matches into it.  It won't light.  Soak that goblin with kerosene, he'll burn just dandy.  Pour kerosene onto a stone floor, and you'll have just as much luck setting it on fire as if you'd poured water instead.

Yeah most oils arnt quite that volatile.
Hell heres one for you the lamps with the glass globe that holly wood loves to tip over and start fires.
Those are called ether hot or cold blast lanterns (there are 2 types) and they cant do that.
The way they are put together they will smother the fire if they tip over.

Quote from: Lunamancer;908369I don't think you're entirely wrong. I feel this is yet another thing that should be obvious but is obscured by the piss-poor accepted lexicon of game theory. Allow me to suggest, there is no such thing as niche protection. There is archetype enforcement--which I guess is similar to what you term niche protection on the meta level. And then there is niche specialization.

The reason there's no such thing as niche protection is because a niche isn't something that's necessarily well-defined. In real life, a niche is something you kind of fall into. And it's the same way in the game, because even as you're playing a game of decision-making and choice, real world concepts like opportunity cost are present. Regardless of your group. Regardless of the RPG. Rigidly defined classes? Now those are examples of Archetype Enforcement. Niche specialization is something different. An example I like to use, however dated, is effective at illustrating the point. Examine the old-school D&D Joe the fighter vs Fred the fighter problem. I use an extreme example that magnifies the problem, Joe and Fred have exact identical stats, only Joe the fighter rolled 10 hit points for first level while Fred rolled 1.

Here's the thing. With Joe's 10 hit points, he's kind of too valuable as a "meat shield" to use as anything other than a front-line fighter. Even though Fred is no better at ranged fighting than Joe, Fred does thus have a comparative advantage over Joe when it comes to archery. Because the opportunity cost of forgoing the alternative of Fred as a front-line fighter is no great loss. Whereas the opportunity cost of Joe being a back-line archer is a much bigger loss. So I would anticipate in actual play, Fred would fall into the niche of archer, even though the game system hasn't provided an archer archetype.

So that's falling into a niche. It happens organically. Now where niche specialization comes in is if you use the AD&D weapon proficiency system to then allow Fred to specialize in the niche he's acquired, whereas Joe specializes in the niche he's acquired. As long as the game system has a way you can do this, it supports niche specialization. And whereas initially Fred was inferior to Joe in every way and only had a comparative advantage over Joe, through niche specialization, over time, the two fighters become like apples and oranges. You can't say in an objective sense which is superior to another.

This is my experience.
And a solid post.,

Quote from: Ravenswing;908406Well, of course not.  Arguing about the utter inanity of the standard D&D "dungeon" was something I did once back in the APA days.

... 35+ years ago, when I was much younger and much dumber, and honestly believed that I could get through to people if I were only eloquent enough.

If there was ever the Mother of Lost Causes in terms of RPG discussions, I think that one would have to top the list.

From what iv seen out of most peaple iv met in real life its less that they dont know its wrong and more that they dont give a shit about making there elf game "realistic".

Quote from: tenbones;908418This has all the makings of a good encounter.

These might help.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fox-Squirrel_(3.5e_Creature)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dire_Flying_Squirrel_(3.5e_Creature)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Squirrel,_Flying_(3.5e_Creature)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Squirrel_(3.5e_Creature)

Quote from: talysman;908386When I first started playing, we didn't treat them as separate, especially since what we knew about flammable oil came from '70s TV and movies. Much later, I learned not only that oil wasn't as easy to light as Hollywood portrays it, but most of the lanterns in medieval times wouldn't even be oil lanterns. They're candle lanterns. At least some versions of the rules distinguish between the bullseye lantern, which uses oil, and the cheaper lantern, which uses candles.

My great grandparents were still alive when I was young and we'd go out to visit them once a year. They lived way out in the middle of no-where straight out of a Lovecraft story complete with ancient house overlooking a cliff and mysterious caves below. The place was lit with oil lamps so I was familliar with them even if I didnt understand them at the time other that "Dont touch! Hot!" ow.

And very correct. Candle lanterns were far as I can tell fairly common after a certain point.

Quote from: Ravenswing;908406Well, of course not.  Arguing about the utter inanity of the standard D&D "dungeon" was something I did once back in the APA days.

Why assume they arent ventilated? Do you assume all real world mines arent ventilated? (Ok. Some arent ventilated well.) People work and live down in those fantasy dungeons so obviously they are ventilated and everything else.

Quote from: Omega;908434Why assume they arent ventilated? Do you assume all real world mines arent ventilated? (Ok. Some arent ventilated well.) People work and live down in those fantasy dungeons so obviously they are ventilated and everything else.

Or maybe "Tell me why you care about how it's ventilated.  If it's an interesting plan that will make a fun situation in game, I'll think about it.  If you're just being a pill, fuck it."

See also the McDonald's on the 7th level.

So, I'm going outside and I'm going to find the vents and pour bleach and ammonia (baking soda works too) into a glass jug.  Seal it.  Shake it.  And throw it down the vent, if it doesn't break I'll throw some rocks down after it.

My Call of Cthulhu GM grew to hate me

Quote from: David Johansen;908460So, I'm going outside and I'm going to find the vents and pour bleach and ammonia (baking soda works too) into a glass jug.  Seal it.  Shake it.  And throw it down the vent, if it doesn't break I'll throw some rocks down after it.

My Call of Cthulhu GM grew to hate me

Hopefully you found a real vent, cunningly concealed in a rock face, and not one of the false vents we drilled out just to tempt "clever" adventurers, while our kobold vent guards lob glass jars full of angry bees, scorpions, dung and green slime at you, meanwhile the runner goes for reinforcements.

You think you're the first adventurer to try mucking with our vents?

Well, clearly goblins are cleverer than Cthulhu cultists.  

You bang a sock full of talcum powder or chalk over a vent and watch for the draft, of course.

For goblins though it's 200 lb test fishing line and a Rolex that gets them every time.

Vent fishing like grandpa used to do it.

Quote from: kosmos1214;908428More like 3-4 ish minimum if you know what you are doing its surprising how fast you can shoot them.
To be fair thats more line tactics shoot at this line of guys as fast as you can sort of shooting.

I don't know what you are using for a bench mark, but 4 rounds a minute (in any weather) for a flintlock smooth-bore musket is, as I understand it, the prescribed speed for British Line Infantry circa 1800. That works out to 15 seconds per shot, which is 5 x 3-second rounds. A matchlock is a bit slower, unless you are willing to risk serious misfires.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;908465Hopefully you found a real vent, cunningly concealed in a rock face, and not one of the false vents we drilled out just to tempt "clever" adventurers, while our kobold vent guards lob glass jars full of angry bees, scorpions, dung and green slime at you, meanwhile the runner goes for reinforcements.

You think you're the first adventurer to try mucking with our vents?

How did the tribegroup of goblins who died to the first time suddenly pass on the knowledge to the other tribes?  That's a high level of metagaming there, bub.  And also, who says they'd be willing to talk to other tribes, last I checked Goblins weren't well known for cooperating with each other without a strong leader killing a few to get them motivated...

Quote from: Omega;908425For me what I see way too much is a borderline insane insistence on broadening some definition to the point it is effectively "everything on earth"

Precisely.

Just because you can sit on it, doesn't mean it's "a chair". And just because it's "a chair", doesn't mean it applies to all scenarios where people are about to sit down.

Side note: Vents? See this lichen growing pretty much everywhere? It generates air. Done.