"Magic Items
You determine how many magic items characters
can find in your adventures. The game does not
assume that characters need them to succeed.
Magic items, when found at all, simply make PCs
better.
Thus, you can add or withhold magic items in
your adventures as you see fit. Being somewhat
stingy with magic item placement, especially at
lower levels, means that players will appreciate
such items all the more when they find some.
If you populate your tougher dungeon levels and
adventures with more magic items, then players
can influence the kind of magic items they obtain
by accepting greater risks.
This playtest packet doesn't yet include magic
items, but that information is coming."
I can see how this might make certain D&D players cranky.
I, on the other hand, can't help but giggle that they have removed built-in assumptions about magic items (ESPECIALLY "Magic Item Wishlists").
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;573068"Magic Items
You determine how many magic items characters
can find in your adventures. The game does not
assume that characters need them to succeed.
Magic items, when found at all, simply make PCs
better.
Thus, you can add or withhold magic items in
your adventures as you see fit. Being somewhat
stingy with magic item placement, especially at
lower levels, means that players will appreciate
such items all the more when they find some.
If you populate your tougher dungeon levels and
adventures with more magic items, then players
can influence the kind of magic items they obtain
by accepting greater risks.
This playtest packet doesn't yet include magic
items, but that information is coming."
I can see how this might make certain D&D players cranky.
I, on the other hand, can't help but giggle that they have removed built-in assumptions about magic items (ESPECIALLY "Magic Item Wishlists").
Only good things can come with this kind of baseline assumption.
Quote from: Marleycat;573076Only good things can come with this kind of baseline assumption.
This assumption probably has to do with the context of higher (and rapidly increasing) ability scores, as well.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;573081This assumption probably has to do with the context of higher (and rapidly increasing) ability scores, as well.
I was going to mention that but from how I understand it you get to raise 2 scores +1 every 4 levels with a hardcap of 20 on every score. I assume there will be magic available to bump that up to something like 25 max for temporary durations.
Quote from: Marleycat;573084I was going to mention that but from how I understand it you get to raise 2 scores +1 every 4 levels with a hardcap of 20 on every score. I assume there will be magic available to bump that up to something like 25 max for temporary durations.
Even with a hard cap of 20, you're still looking at higher than average ability scores, when you factor in racial adjustments and class adjustments, and how racial adjustments aren't +1/-1, but all bonuses and no penalties.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;573090Even with a hard cap of 20, you're still looking at higher than average ability scores, when you factor in racial adjustments and class adjustments, and how racial adjustments aren't +1/-1, but all bonuses and no penalties.
I agree but you do understand raw ability scores are going to be primary in the game. I also assume magic bonuses will be smaller. I agree that you will probably have quite a few scores in the 14-16 range with a 20 in your primary.
If you use arrays it won't be bad at all really given no matter what you can't go above 20 so you just start putting a couple of points in your secondaries.
Who ever played that magic items were "deserved?" Or even "earned?" You find one, awesome! No GM owes you one. Ever.
Quote from: Callous;573534Who ever played that magic items were "deserved?" Or even "earned?" You find one, awesome! No GM owes you one. Ever.
Kinda what I thought. But having x amount of items became assumed, unfortunately.
Quote from: Callous;573534Who ever played that magic items were "deserved?" Or even "earned?" You find one, awesome! No GM owes you one. Ever.
When I played 1/2e I might of had 4-5 items and my sword was usually +2 even at endgame (if playing a fighter). 3x changed this by making items part of the central build then 4e made it worse by adding in the wishlist bullshit.
Magic items were never assumed and there was no silliness like trading or buying or otherwise acquiring spells from NPC'S unless you stole it or killed them and still had to defeat their security measures. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and so on.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;573540Kinda what I thought. But having x amount of items became assumed, unfortunately.
My experience of AD&D is that no, you didn't "deserve" to have your wish list. But magic items were assumed at higher levels because they were in plentiful abundance in all the modules that you played.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;573551My experience of AD&D is that no, you didn't "deserve" to have your wish list. But magic items were assumed at higher levels because they were in plentiful abundance in all the modules that you played.
That was always very weird to me about the abundant magic items but we never used modules or modified them so much we might as not have been.
Yeah, I never really used modules...just ran a couple of the big boxed sets (Night Below, Rod of Seven Parts)...everything else was random rolls on the treasure tables.
I would say the vast majority of our gaming was using modules plopped down in our own homebrew campaign world, but with the plots changed to fit the plot that I was DMing through. For example, a couple years ago I DM'd a group through T1-4, S2, and then an adventure I created, tying them all together with my own storyline. One of the player's main nemesis from his background rallied a force in ToEE to attack Homlett so the players entered the temple to find that this bad guy was armed with Blackrazor. The party paladin had a quest to destroy it, but in order to do so needed Whelm, and then needed a white dragon to breath on Blackrazor before striking it with Whelm.
A lot more story behind it, but that's he gist. Anyway, we kept most of the magic items in the modules, so players with magic items was pretty common.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;573584A lot more story behind it, but that's he gist. Anyway, we kept most of the magic items in the modules, so players with magic items was pretty common.
Even still, "players with magic items was pretty common" is wildly different than "characters will have x amount of magic items at each level" or "turn in your wishlist to your DM for the items you want".
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;573588Even still, "players with magic items was pretty common" is wildly different than "characters will have x amount of magic items at each level" or "turn in your wishlist to your DM for the items you want".
Oh, I don't disagree with the core of your argument. Wish lists, and the way 3e allows you to pretty much buy what you want under the assumption that it's always going to be available is pretty odd to me.
I've always operated under the play style that you work with what you've found. I was just saying that there was an assumption that you would have magic items at higher levels because they were pretty common. Not that you'd have the magic items you want at higher levels.
Does that make sense?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;573590Oh, I don't disagree with the core of your argument. Wish lists, and the way 3e allows you to pretty much buy what you want under the assumption that it's always going to be available is pretty odd to me.
I've always operated under the play style that you work with what you've found. I was just saying that there was an assumption that you would have magic items at higher levels because they were pretty common. Not that you'd have the magic items you want at higher levels.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, we're on the same page...=)
I'm not saying "NO MAGIC ITEMS!" I'm just saying I love that the assumption of magic items is removed. I mean, you're absolutely right...magic items happened at higher levels...because, even if you weren't using modules, higher levels had monsters with bigger treasure hoards, etc.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;573590Oh, I don't disagree with the core of your argument. Wish lists, and the way 3e allows you to pretty much buy what you want under the assumption that it's always going to be available is pretty odd to me.
I've always operated under the play style that you work with what you've found. I was just saying that there was an assumption that you would have magic items at higher levels because they were pretty common. Not that you'd have the magic items you want at higher levels.
Does that make sense?
Yes. You have to understand most of my play experience was in the 6-10 range and few times up to 12-14 for non one off stuff. But I definitely saw the magic item creep at that 12-14 level range. Manageable but it was there. My attitude about the topic lines up with Tommy's for the great majority.