TheRPGSite

What are the best OSR disease rules around?  Has anyone made their own?

I don't think anyone really has handled disease well, and it's really hard to do so without thinking about disease.

First off, most  real world diseases takes days, even weeks, before they really take effect. This is meaningless in most fantasy adventures, which seldom take more than a week of action to complete.

The next issue is most fantasy worlds have some sort of magical "cure disease". Diseases become irrelevant past the level where characters can reasonably get the cure disease ability.

So, in most game systems, there's really only a narrow window where disease is a relevant possiblity, and then only with fantasy diseases, the kind that take effect instantly, or far more quickly than any real disease.

4e came the closest, with diseases that only went away after multiple saves.

If a RPG rules set is going to have diseases, they need fast enough effect to be relevant, need to have varying degrees of susceptibility to "cure disease" (I vaguely remember there was a time when certain diseases needed various levels of cleric to be cured, in some version of D&D), and a realistic chance for PCs to simply recover on their own.

My rule of thumb is just don't touch an OSR guy or let him breathe on you and you should be fine. Most are somewhat clean and just smell funny.

To me, it's like tracking shoe wear (which I think that german RPG The Dark Eye does, at least the computer version of it did*). It might add realism to the game, but I don't think it adds any fun.

* And caused me to literally throw the game, box and all, out the window.


Beyond that, Cure Disease is not exactly a high level spell (3rd level).

Disease are only interesting to me if they add something to the character or plot.

Lyncanthropey and such add an interesting aspect to the character.

Diseases that require a quest to cure adds some form of plot.

Otherwise Cure Disease takes a lot of the mystery out of it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;834856What are the best OSR disease rules around?  Has anyone made their own?

Depends what is meant by OSR.

Runequest (a late 1970s early 1980s game) included diseases that occurred in three major ways. One was from various chaos tainted creatures, Broo are the best known and most frequently encountered example just touching them or stuff they had defiled exposed one to disease. Second would be actual Spirits of Disease. Disease spirits would attack in spirit combat and if successful would possess the character causing stat loss based on the type of disease spirit stats attacked included INT, CON, STR, DEX, and so on - which was obviously a pretty serious issue. Shamans could command or fight the possessing spirit to remove them - in effect exorcising the spirit. Third, and probably the least frequently encountered, were spells known by worshippers of Chaos deities like Malia Mistress of Disease. My wife had a Malian cultist, sadly she never achieved her goal of becoming a Rune-level disease mistress.

Runequest got diseases right from a gaming perspective since diseases were mostly rare, were frequently the result of player choice (you go fight Broos or other chaos and don't be surprised if you catch something), and often as with disease spirits reinforced a culturally appropriate non-scientific, non-modern view of disease.

Also didn't WHFRP have rules for disease? Not sure if that counts as OSR either.

These days, for RQ/BRP/Legend/D100-style games, I just have an infection chance, modified by circumstances, with an opposed roll against some resistance chance. Failure means they get infected and the disease progresses with its associated symptoms. In Merrie England, for example, you can die of diarrhoea ...

Quote from: Matt;834867My rule of thumb is just don't touch an OSR guy or let him breathe on you and you should be fine. Most are somewhat clean and just smell funny.

Pundit, we need a LIKE button! :cool:

I made my own disease rules. Several times. I keep simplifying them each time around. Sent one set off for the next issue of Fight On! As part of an article on a new class, but I've made a few changes again while waiting for the issue to be published.

Basic core idea I always include is that you can't recover hit points while sick. That makes it relevant to adventuring ... Minor diseases basically do nothing else, or maybe have an annoying side effect like sneezing that can reduce surprise chances or something like that. More serious illnesses halve Move and require an extra turn of rest every hour. Some diseases cause a specific body part to be crippled and unusable. You can otherwise keep adventuring, or take some down time to recover. Your choice.

I use 2d6 roll under Con for catching or recovering from disease. The FO article added dice for more serious diseases, but now I'd just halve Con when checking serious diseases. That's pretty much all the rules I need. Natural disease normally is irrelevant, but parasites can take effect quicker, as can diseases caused by curses.

I like diseases where an infected character starts to mutate into another life form of some kind if not treated in time. I don't know which rule is best for this though. I usually just make up something real quick that works for the system the group is using.

In my experience, diseases in RPG's (Old School or otherwise) tend to be just slightly less awful and fun-ruining than diseases in "real life" and should be treated as such.

Quote from: Bren;834943Also didn't WHFRP have rules for disease? Not sure if that counts as OSR either.

There's gotta be rules somewhere for catching Nurgle's Rot.

I do like diseases to have a slightly mystical aspect... affecting more than just the body. I remember some nasty stuff our party caught in Earthdawn that took us a while to get rid of and caused us all sorts of trouble till we did.

Also, fun if the disease has stages... starting off mild, like exuding a bad odor that attracts flies... then gets progressively more repulsive. Sort of like a countdown timer on a bomb.

Quote from: RPGPundit;834856What are the best OSR disease rules around?  Has anyone made their own?

Well, I'm going to have to make my own now, aren't I?

Quote from: Bren;834943Runequest (a late 1970s early 1980s game) included diseases that occurred in three major ways. One was from various chaos tainted creatures, Broo are the best known and most frequently encountered example just touching them or stuff they had defiled exposed one to disease.

Monsters as sources of disease is an old D&D thing as well. In OD&D, Mummies give you a rotting disease (wounds take 10* as long to heal, cure disease reduces this by half). That's a reasonable first stab at a rule, but there's only one other disease monster in OD&D, Giant Ticks, and they just give you a disease which kills you in 2-8 days without Cure Disease. After that D&D gets a bit confused on what to do.

So I like the "monsters that give you disease" idea, but I don't think any of the various OD&D/BX/AD&D methods for dealing with it are good.

ZWEIHÄNDER (http://grimandperilous.com) uses diseases. Some of these rules may not be readily apparent to those who aren't familiar with the Grim & Perilous ruleset, but will definitely resonate with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com) enthusiasts:

BLOODY FLUX
Blood in your feces, dehydration, general weakness and inability to focus are symptomatic of the Bloody Flux. Your stool becomes watery, causing your bowels to cramp in a most uncomfortable manner. Living within the squalid quarters of the city and amongst soldiers’ camps causes this uncomfortable Disease to spread from person to person. Blood sausages, spicy foods and eel pies are oftentimes prescribed to ward away its effects.

Resist: (Routine +10%) Toughness Test
Onset: Immediately
Duration: 1D6+3 days
Effect: Over the duration, you awaken each day suffering 1D6+9 Peril from sickness.
Treatment: To have a chance at being treated, a caregiver must have Skill Rank: Journeyman in Heal, have a rich meal to feed you (which are expended after use) and be left uninterrupted for at least ten minutes. A healer must succeed a (Routine +10%) Heal Test, which can be attempted once per day. If successful, you suffer no loss of Peril the following day. A Critical Success cures you of Bloody Flux. Failure results in no recovery, whereas a Critical Failure causes you to lose 1D6+6 Peril the following day instead.
Cure: Bloody Flux cannot be cured, outside of a Critical Success with a Heal Test. It must simply run its course. However, a creative Gamemaster may introduce ways for you to cure Bloody Flux.


FILTH FEVER
A terribly disgusting disease, it quickly debilitates those who are exposed to it. Wading through a midden or traipsing through bogs and sewers can expose would-be adventurers to Filth Fever. It inhibits the body’s ability to recover appropriately and causes wounds and other Injuries to grow more severe.

Resist: (Challenging -10%) Toughness Test
Onset: Immediately
Duration: 1D6+6 days
Effect: Over the duration, all Moderate and Serious Injuries you suffer are treated as Grievous Injuries instead.
Treatment: To have a chance at being treated, a caregiver must have Skill Rank: Journeyman in Heal, have  4 bottles of rotgut to cleanse the wounds (which are expended after use) and be left uninterrupted for at least one hour. A healer must succeed a (Challenging -10%) Heal Test, which can be attempted once per day. If successful, all Moderate and Serious Injuries you suffer are treated as Serious Injuries instead. A Critical Success cures you of Filth Fever. Failure results in no recovery, whereas a Critical Failure causes you to be Slain! if you suffer any Injury until the following day.
Cure: Filth Fever cannot be cured, outside of a Critical Success with a Heal Test. It must simply run its course. However, a creative Gamemaster may introduce ways for you to cure Filth Fever.


VENEREAL DISEASE
There are many names for these sort of illnesses - the clap, sailor's pain, the drip, great pox or hot piss - all evocative in their own way, but the resulting discomfort is generally the same. Its treatment involves an iron catheter while inserting mites and lice into the genitalia.Terribly embarrassing and potentially fatal, Venereal Diseases persist over a lifetime.

Resist: (Standard +/-0%) Toughness Test
Onset: Immediately
Duration: Until cured
Effect: Over the duration, you lose 1% from your Brawn Primary Attribute every day. Should your Brawn ever reach 0%, you are dead!
Treatment: To have a chance at being treated, a caregiver must have Skill Rank: Journeyman in Heal, have a dose of mandrake root (which are expended after use) and be left uninterrupted for at least ten minutes. A healer must succeed a (Standard +/-0%) Heal Test, which can be attempted once per day. If successful, you do not lose any Brawn. A Critical Success ensures you are safe for three days without having to lose any Brawn. Failure results in no recovery, whereas a Critical Failure causes to lose 3% Brawn immediately.
Cure: By sacrificing 1 Fate Point, you are immediately cured of this disease. As a result, you are also immune to Venereal Disease in the future. In exchange, you gain a Drawback the Gamemaster feels appropriate. However, a creative Gamemaster may introduce ways for you to cure Venereal Disease.

Quote from: Bren;834943Also didn't WHFRP have rules for disease? Not sure if that counts as OSR either.

The herbalism document i did for v2 had a few diseases in it, like The Drummer's Measels, Trout Lips and Elvish Ears - a particularly virulent disease that deforms the ears and requires houses to be boarded up to stop its spread. Of course, once the house was clean, the word went round that Elvish had left the building...

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;835088Cure: Bloody Flux cannot be cured, outside of a Critical Success with a Heal Test. It must simply run its course.

I saw what you did there.

Quote from: One Horse Town;835097The herbalism document i did for v2 had a few diseases in it, like The Drummer's Measels, Trout Lips and Elvish Ears - a particularly virulent disease that deforms the ears and requires houses to be boarded up to stop its spread. Of course, once the house was clean, the word went round that Elvish had left the building...

Everybody saw what you did there. :p

Quote from: Simlasa;835048There's gotta be rules somewhere for catching Nurgle's Rot.

Yep.  Core book, even - the sample adventure in the back of the WFRP1 rulebook features a Beast of Nurgle, making a point of describing it as a big, slimy, playful puppy that just wants to jump up and slobber all over you... and here's what happens when you come in contact with the slime and contract Nurgle's Rot.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;835088ZWEIHÄNDER (http://grimandperilous.com) uses diseases. Some of these rules may not be readily apparent to those who aren't familiar with the Grim & Perilous ruleset, but will definitely resonate with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com) enthusiasts:

BLOODY FLUX
Blood in your feces, dehydration, general weakness and inability to focus are symptomatic of the Bloody Flux. Your stool becomes watery, causing your bowels to cramp in a most uncomfortable manner. Living within the squalid quarters of the city and amongst soldiers' camps causes this uncomfortable Disease to spread from person to person. Blood sausages, spicy foods and eel pies are oftentimes prescribed to ward away its effects.

Resist: (Routine +10%) Toughness Test
Onset: Immediately
Duration: 1D6+3 days
Effect: Over the duration, you awaken each day suffering 1D6+9 Peril from sickness.
Treatment: To have a chance at being treated, a caregiver must have Skill Rank: Journeyman in Heal, have a rich meal to feed you (which are expended after use) and be left uninterrupted for at least ten minutes. A healer must succeed a (Routine +10%) Heal Test, which can be attempted once per day. If successful, you suffer no loss of Peril the following day. A Critical Success cures you of Bloody Flux. Failure results in no recovery, whereas a Critical Failure causes you to lose 1D6+6 Peril the following day instead.
Cure: Bloody Flux cannot be cured, outside of a Critical Success with a Heal Test. It must simply run its course. However, a creative Gamemaster may introduce ways for you to cure Bloody Flux.


FILTH FEVER
A terribly disgusting disease, it quickly debilitates those who are exposed to it. Wading through a midden or traipsing through bogs and sewers can expose would-be adventurers to Filth Fever. It inhibits the body's ability to recover appropriately and causes wounds and other Injuries to grow more severe.

Resist: (Challenging -10%) Toughness Test
Onset: Immediately
Duration: 1D6+6 days
Effect: Over the duration, all Moderate and Serious Injuries you suffer are treated as Grievous Injuries instead.
Treatment: To have a chance at being treated, a caregiver must have Skill Rank: Journeyman in Heal, have  4 bottles of rotgut to cleanse the wounds (which are expended after use) and be left uninterrupted for at least one hour. A healer must succeed a (Challenging -10%) Heal Test, which can be attempted once per day. If successful, all Moderate and Serious Injuries you suffer are treated as Serious Injuries instead. A Critical Success cures you of Filth Fever. Failure results in no recovery, whereas a Critical Failure causes you to be Slain! if you suffer any Injury until the following day.
Cure: Filth Fever cannot be cured, outside of a Critical Success with a Heal Test. It must simply run its course. However, a creative Gamemaster may introduce ways for you to cure Filth Fever.


VENEREAL DISEASE
There are many names for these sort of illnesses - the clap, sailor's pain, the drip, great pox or hot piss - all evocative in their own way, but the resulting discomfort is generally the same. Its treatment involves an iron catheter while inserting mites and lice into the genitalia.Terribly embarrassing and potentially fatal, Venereal Diseases persist over a lifetime.

Resist: (Standard +/-0%) Toughness Test
Onset: Immediately
Duration: Until cured
Effect: Over the duration, you lose 1% from your Brawn Primary Attribute every day. Should your Brawn ever reach 0%, you are dead!
Treatment: To have a chance at being treated, a caregiver must have Skill Rank: Journeyman in Heal, have a dose of mandrake root (which are expended after use) and be left uninterrupted for at least ten minutes. A healer must succeed a (Standard +/-0%) Heal Test, which can be attempted once per day. If successful, you do not lose any Brawn. A Critical Success ensures you are safe for three days without having to lose any Brawn. Failure results in no recovery, whereas a Critical Failure causes to lose 3% Brawn immediately.
Cure: By sacrificing 1 Fate Point, you are immediately cured of this disease. As a result, you are also immune to Venereal Disease in the future. In exchange, you gain a Drawback the Gamemaster feels appropriate. However, a creative Gamemaster may introduce ways for you to cure Venereal Disease.

These sound like fantastic afflictions with which to curse a player character.

Heck, I use disease all the time.  Some of the characters in my campaigns have chronic illnesses (fibro, rheumatism) that occasionally affect them.

Adventurers also travel.  A lot.  And often in rotten weather conditions, unless you run (admittedly one of the many) campaigns that seem to be perpetually Southern California in the late springtime, never rainy, never cold and never too hot.  HT rolls to avoid sickness happen a lot, and those folks imprudent enough to lowball their HT pay for that.

Dragon Warriors had a nice collection of nasty poxes and agues. Used some kind of infected crypt once, which the players didn't like. Overall its an area difficult to really make fun: poisons are easier to use.

Quote from: The_Shadow;835661Dragon Warriors had a nice collection of nasty poxes and agues. Used some kind of infected crypt once, which the players didn't like. Overall its an area difficult to really make fun: poisons are easier to use.

Mostly poisons are easier because most games treat poisons unrealistically. If one wants to make diseases more entertaining one should probably treat them unrealistically as well.

Quote from: Bren;835663Mostly poisons are easier because most games treat poisons unrealistically. If one wants to make diseases more entertaining one should probably treat them unrealistically as well.

This probably is the secret to a good approach to diseases, assuming such an approach exists (much early human attempts at flying tried to imitate the "realistic" flying of birds, which clearly wasn't the way to go).

Forget rules. Who's used diseases in their games, other than as a macguffin (e.g. villain threatens world with super bioweapon) or a special attack (e.g. lycanthropy and mummy rot in D&D), and how?

I ask because I'd love to write a bit on how to use diseases (similar to my old article on injury (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30371)) but I'm not sure if/how people feature diseases in their games.

Quote from: The Butcher;835676Forget rules. Who's used diseases in their games, other than as a macguffin (e.g. villain threatens world with super bioweapon) or a special attack (e.g. lycanthropy and mummy rot in D&D), and how?

I ask because I'd love to write a bit on how to use diseases (similar to my old article on injury (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30371)) but I'm not sure if/how people feature diseases in their games.

I have used them, but only early in the campaign (before "cure disease" and the other host of powahs characters gets makes diseases irrelevant).

Probably the most successful was in 4e (yes, 4e had issues, but it was very good at very low levels). The players needed to go into a swamp to track down a black dragon.

Pretty much everything in the swamp could inflict disease with a bite. I made up the diseases ("Swamp Fever", "Swamp Tetanus", "Swamp Nausea"), giving effects for various levels of severity (pretty much just minutes to some rolls and abilities) and the DCs to avoid the diseases getting worse.

Every time a character got a disease, I handed him/her a 3x5 card with the name of the disease, the effects, and the DCs and whatever else was needed. You pretty much have to do this, because you'll be looking at the disease effect essentially every round of combat (a big issue why they often don't work in games).

By the time players got to the dragon, they were so loaded down with diseases (one guy had all three) that the fight with the dragon was pretty good (solos in 5e were pretty bad without extensive errata).

Quote from: The Butcher;835676Forget rules. Who's used diseases in their games, other than as a macguffin (e.g. villain threatens world with super bioweapon) or a special attack (e.g. lycanthropy and mummy rot in D&D), and how?

I mentioned diseases in Runequest in Glorantha.

• Various chaos creatures, especially broos, can expose characters to disease from touching such creatures or the items they have contaminated. So characters who fight chaos are likely to get exposed, especially if they loot the corpses or lairs of creatures of chaos.
• Spirits of disease can be independently encountered. In a sense those are a type of special attack.
• Actual chaos taints are more of a mutation than a disease, and are a sort of special attack similar to lycanthropy.

In my Honor+Intrigue (H+I) campaign diseases come up a couple ways.

• One is a chance of exposure to disease for characters who enter the underground and sewers below Paris. So far the PCs haven't been in the sewers at all or in the underground enough to be exposed, but that may change.
• Also we have used disease like cold, flu, or intestinal distress/dysentery as the explanation for a PC to sit out when their player was unavailable. That seems like a useful rationale to use so we'll probably see more of that.
• I've been tempted to add disease exposure as a possibility for badly wounded characters, but haven't bother tracking the extra detail in part because this doesn't really fit the swashbuckling cape & sword genre nor the Barbarians of Lemuria based damage, recovery, and healing rules.
• I'm also tempted to add something for areas exposed to a plague or for poor quality food or water. But have similar concerns about detail tracking and genre appropriateness.

Since H+I uses a bonus and penalty die mechanic as well as composure loss. as far as an easy, but not too realistic effect one could use either of those mechanics. All characters have starting Composure=3. Each point of lost composure is a -1 penalty to all actions and rolls. If Composure is reduced to 0 the character is essentially taken out of the scene. So two choices for modeling game effects of disease could be composure loss or assigning a penalty die to certain or all actions. Something like:

• Mild to Moderate diseases : -1 Composure (e.g. a really bad cold with congestion);
• Moderate diseases: as above but use a penalty die instead of -1 (wracking coughs, fever, nausea, or diarrhea;
• Moderate to severe diseases :-2 composure (ignore the penalty die) (e.g. as above but multiple symptoms and/or high fever);
• Severe diseases: -2 composure plus a penalty die;
• Fatal to near fatal diseases : -3 composure, character is bed ridden and semi-conscious or in a coma until at least 1 composure is recovered by healing (e.g. the plague).

The big problem with disease, I think, is that it has a tricky complexity-scale:  make it too complex and you're going to a lot of bother for something that isn't worth it. Make it too simple, and it seems too on-the-fly.   And the flip between one and other seems to be on a hair.

Quote from: RPGPundit;835704The big problem with disease, I think, is that it has a tricky complexity-scale:  make it too complex and you're going to a lot of bother for something that isn't worth it. Make it too simple, and it seems too on-the-fly.   And the flip between one and other seems to be on a hair.

Yeah that and there isn't likely to be a lot of fun for the players in having their PC get or be sick. And unless the PC is some kind of healer type, there's not likely to be tons of payoff in having their PC stay healthy and end up tending to others when the NPCs get sick.  Which is in direct contrast to the rules on wounding and death from combat wherein PCs avoiding death when others die tends to be fun/cool for the players.

Quote from: The Butcher;835676Forget rules. Who's used diseases in their games, other than as a macguffin (e.g. villain threatens world with super bioweapon) or a special attack (e.g. lycanthropy and mummy rot in D&D), and how?

I ask because I'd love to write a bit on how to use diseases (similar to my old article on injury (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30371)) but I'm not sure if/how people feature diseases in their games.

The first installment of the PF AP about the pirates has a nifty sandbox island thing the players must explore to eventually get off the island. You could catch diseases; you checked everyday unless you came up with a way to keep the insects at bay(smoke, herbs, etc.). By the end of the adventure, these people HATED Malaria and jungle rot. :-) The mage almost died from it!

Quote from: Bren;835717Yeah that and there isn't likely to be a lot of fun for the players in having their PC get or be sick. And unless the PC is some kind of healer type, there's not likely to be tons of payoff in having their PC stay healthy and end up tending to others when the NPCs get sick.  Which is in direct contrast to the rules on wounding and death from combat wherein PCs avoiding death when others die tends to be fun/cool for the players.

Well, in certain campaigns (particularly ones where there isn't instant cure-disease magical healing), having an illness that is slowly killing a PC gives a sense of urgency for them (or their friends) to find a cure.  Or, if no cure is possible, to settle their pending business before it's too late.

There's a lot of potential drama in illness. Its just that the combination of bad mechanics and clerical-magic tends to undermine it in D&D.

Quote from: RPGPundit;836126Well, in certain campaigns (particularly ones where there isn't instant cure-disease magical healing), having an illness that is slowly killing a PC gives a sense of urgency for them (or their friends) to find a cure.  Or, if no cure is possible, to settle their pending business before it's too late.

There's a lot of potential drama in illness. Its just that the combination of bad mechanics and clerical-magic tends to undermine it in D&D.

I wasn't thinking of D&D Clerics, but yes, D&D Clerical magic nerfs a lot of potential drama - thirst, starvation, disease, wounds, and even death. That eliminates a lot of problems that ordinary mortals have to worry about, plan around, or triumph over.

Quote from: RPGPundit;836126There's a lot of potential drama in illness. Its just that the combination of bad mechanics and clerical-magic tends to undermine it in D&D.

This 100%

It's a feature in my campaign, but not a major one. If the PCs go wading through sewers, sifting through a pile of shit looking for hidden gems, rifling decaying corpses, eating spoiled food or drinking foul water, they roll one saving throw vs Poison to see if they caught something and a second to see if it's fatal. Simple, and it stops PCs from wasting time with chickenshit of the sort I described above.

It can help a lot if you don't make clerical cure-disease automatically work.  If it requires a saving throw, for example. Possibly with a penalty depending on the PC's alignment.

Quote from: RPGPundit;836802It can help a lot if you don't make clerical cure-disease automatically work.  If it requires a saving throw, for example. Possibly with a penalty depending on the PC's alignment.

Even better if you have something more detailed to track adherence to the faith of both the cleric and the target.

For proselytizing faiths the cleric's faithfulness* would matter since healing unbelievers is a good way to recruit new believers. Many people see all religions as proselytizing due to actions of the two big monotheistic faiths, Christianity and Islam, but a lot of ancient religions were neither exclusive nor focused on seeking out and acquiring new worshipers. For those religions, the faithfulness or lack of faith of the cleric and the worshipper should act as modifiers.

* For faithfulness (which is a state of mind) we should probably substitute right practice or proper observance of ritual since these things are observable and measurable and thus easier for the GM to administer.

Quote from: Bren;836807Even better if you have something more detailed to track adherence to the faith of both the cleric and the target.

For proselytizing faiths the cleric's faithfulness* would matter since healing unbelievers is a good way to recruit new believers. Many people see all religions as proselytizing due to actions of the two big monotheistic faiths, Christianity and Islam, but a lot of ancient religions were neither exclusive nor focused on seeking out and acquiring new worshipers. For those religions, the faithfulness or lack of faith of the cleric and the worshipper should act as modifiers.

* For faithfulness (which is a state of mind) we should probably substitute right practice or proper observance of ritual since these things are observable and measurable and thus easier for the GM to administer.

Sure, but we have to be careful not to slip into the "making things too complicated" problem of diseases I mentioned above.

Quote from: RPGPundit;836802It can help a lot if you don't make clerical cure-disease automatically work.  If it requires a saving throw, for example. Possibly with a penalty depending on the PC's alignment.

Given my usual system caveat, I've a couple suggestions.

* Make your priests priests of religions, not big-city ER healbots.  Sheesh, you'd think that the cleric-as-healbot crowd has never met a real-life priest, or has the faintest conception what they do.  Like conducting services.  Like performing customary rites like marriages, funerals, initiations, blessings, and suchlike.  Like administering their parishes.  Like pastoral counseling.  Like ministering to the downtrodden amongst their flock.  Like missionary work.  Like political advocacy for their faith.  IMHO, heal-on-demand services for adventurers is well down the list of the things priests are supposed to be doing with their time.  If the local priest is out at the one-month premature birth seeing to the health of the mother and the blessing of the newborn, the bleeding PCs are SOL.

* In most systems, the power of priests to heal is finite.  Terrific.  So it works only on co-religionists.  Are you a faithful follower of the Sea Lord?  No?  Sorry, bucko, but the priestess' power is for the congregants of her parish and their families.  If there's anything left of her juice by the end of the day, she'll consider it, but fishing is a hard, dangerous life and every second fishing schooner that comes in has SOMEone who's banged up: don't count on it.

(And I mean faithful follower.  Your gods are "real" and aware, right?  So are mine.  Someone who gets initiated just to get access, and then doesn't practice the faith, he's an apostate, and the power doesn't work on him either.)

* In my setting, Cure Disease works only on bacterial diseases.  It doesn't work on viruses, and it doesn't work on fungal maladies, and it doesn't work on genetic/cellular diseases such as sickle cell anemia or cancer.

* Limit the range.  Of the eight leading deities in my setting, one's the goddess of healing, one's the god of war.  They get pretty much the full range of curative magics, that being in their field of endeavor.  The other six don't: minor healing, cure disease, long-term restoration of damaged organs, control bleeding, that's about it.

Quote from: Ravenswing;837190Given my usual system caveat, I've a couple suggestions.
* Make your priests priests of religions,....

Yes this is exactly what I meant.

Quote* In my setting, Cure Disease works only on bacterial diseases.  It doesn't work on viruses, and it doesn't work on fungal maladies, and it doesn't work on genetic/cellular diseases such as sickle cell anemia or cancer.

What's the rationale? After all a viral disease is still a disease.

Quote from: Bren;837277What's the rationale? After all a viral disease is still a disease.

In the fashion that in the English language, the term "disease" = "something that's wrong with your body that can't be chalked up to injury or long-term wearing out of the parts."  Never mind that to medical science, there's a huge distinction between bacterial infections (relatively easy to cure) and viral infections (almost impossible to cure).

In any event, it's not only magic, but divine magic as well.  No one really knows why a priest's healing powers work on consumption, lockjaw, common infections and pneumonia, but not on the common cold, influenza or rabies, though there are a few theories.

I've been thinking about a way to make diseases more resistant to magic, as I find easy fix magic in these cases awefully boring.

The most simple solution would be to give diseases a fortitude save, as that would hook right into established mechanics. And, after all, most diseases are basically swarms of creatures infesting a body and a cure disease spell is basically a kill spell to them, so giving them a con save only makes sense and is in line with the rules.


Of course, if I am to bother with such a houserule, I need to make diseases themself interesting as well. As they are, they are just a drag on gameplay everyone (including me, the DM) just wants to get rid of.

I liked 4th editions disease track and might snatch it up.

I also have spend some time thinking of making diseases mechanical effects more interesting. One thing I came up with is to make them downright horrible from a PCs perspective, but more ambiguos to the players, meaning in effect, they give non-crippling disadvantages, but also minor advantages.

By the by, everything I wrote here also goes doubly for curses, which my thought originaly developed around (except curses use that casters charisma save, not a con save).

Quote from: Ravenswing;837190* In my setting, Cure Disease works only on bacterial diseases.  It doesn't work on viruses, and it doesn't work on fungal maladies, and it doesn't work on genetic/cellular diseases such as sickle cell anemia or cancer.

I would rather divide diseases up between curable and non-curable in some way that doesn't import real world knowledge that undercuts the fantasy feel (at least for me) - it would be like putting "Species" on the blank character sheet instead of "Race".  But I am delighted by the idea of bacteria developing MPR (Multiple Pantheon Resistance).

I lean towards things like Cure Disease, Remove Curse, Regenerate Limb, etc. having a cost in some resource that requires adventuring to obtain; PCs are more likely to be stuck with the bad stuff for a few adventures and to be motivated to adventure.  I don't much care if it's divine favor, rare spell ingredients, being owed a favor by the NPC who is the only one who can cast the spell, or whatever. (And a given religion might have a supply of that resource to benefit its followers only.)

Quote from: Ravenswing;837190Given my usual system caveat, I've a couple suggestions.

* Make your priests priests of religions, not big-city ER healbots.  Sheesh, you'd think that the cleric-as-healbot crowd has never met a real-life priest, or has the faintest conception what they do.  Like conducting services.  Like performing customary rites like marriages, funerals, initiations, blessings, and suchlike.  Like administering their parishes.  Like pastoral counseling.  Like ministering to the downtrodden amongst their flock.  Like missionary work.  Like political advocacy for their faith.  IMHO, heal-on-demand services for adventurers is well down the list of the things priests are supposed to be doing with their time.  If the local priest is out at the one-month premature birth seeing to the health of the mother and the blessing of the newborn, the bleeding PCs are SOL.

* In most systems, the power of priests to heal is finite.  Terrific.  So it works only on co-religionists.  Are you a faithful follower of the Sea Lord?  No?  Sorry, bucko, but the priestess' power is for the congregants of her parish and their families.  If there's anything left of her juice by the end of the day, she'll consider it, but fishing is a hard, dangerous life and every second fishing schooner that comes in has SOMEone who's banged up: don't count on it.

(And I mean faithful follower.  Your gods are "real" and aware, right?  So are mine.  Someone who gets initiated just to get access, and then doesn't practice the faith, he's an apostate, and the power doesn't work on him either.)

* In my setting, Cure Disease works only on bacterial diseases.  It doesn't work on viruses, and it doesn't work on fungal maladies, and it doesn't work on genetic/cellular diseases such as sickle cell anemia or cancer.

* Limit the range.  Of the eight leading deities in my setting, one's the goddess of healing, one's the god of war.  They get pretty much the full range of curative magics, that being in their field of endeavor.  The other six don't: minor healing, cure disease, long-term restoration of damaged organs, control bleeding, that's about it.

This is all mostly good advice.

In my Albion game, there is only the one god in the area (the Unconquered Sun) so everyone is a religionist to some degree, but I require that the character receiving the healing make a saving throw to see if it works.

Also, as you said, the Clerics are not mainly there to heal PCs.  Since the level-ranges are generally very low (there are only a handful of Clerics who even MIGHT have Cure Disease in the entire kingdom), these will be very judiciously given.  The order will favor those who are known true-believers, who are fighting Chaos, or who are people of importance (since the Clerics too have to play some politics, but not as much as the rest of the bureaucracy of the Church).  

Many magical diseases in Albion might require BOTH a Cure Disease and a Remove Curse to be permanently gotten rid of.

However, unlike Bless (which works only on those who have been named in the faith), Cure spells do potentially work on unbelievers or heathens; after all, there's a value in it being used as a conversion tool.

Quote from: Gold Roger;837429One thing I came up with is to make them downright horrible from a PCs perspective, but more ambiguos to the players, meaning in effect, they give non-crippling disadvantages, but also minor advantages.
.

This is precisely how I handle afflictions from insanity in ZWEIHÄNDER (http://grimandperilous.com). Here's an example:

DARK PASSENGER
Faced with the brutal truths of the world, your wounded mind has given sanctuary to a voice that is not your own. Called the Dark Passenger, this "other self" seeks to possess you, urging you towards heinous, murderous acts. At times, you are able to ignore its demands, retaining control. At your weakest moments, the Dark Passenger becomes the driver, using your body as its vehicle for destruction.

Some who are possessed by the Dark Passenger may attempt to control these urges by abiding by a code of twisted ethics. This code may help you control its wrath with self-imposed limits as to when you kill, how you kill and who you kill. Regrettably, the code continues to lead you down the path to true insanity, as you remain possessed by unmitigated rage. The Dark Passenger will have you, both body and soul.

Effect: Whenever you fail a Resolve Test or Critically Fail a Skill Test, ignore your Order Alignment and embrace the Character's Chaos Alignment for purposes of role-play until the Character goes to sleep. During this time, you must flip the results to fail all Fellowship-based Skill Tests. Additionally, you may add an additional 1D6 Chaos Die to Damage whenever you strike during combat, but only in exchange by gaining a Chaos Point. You gain 1 Chaos Point every time you wish to add an additional 1D6 Chaos Die due to your Affliction.

Quote from: RPGPundit;837843However, unlike Bless (which works only on those who have been named in the faith), Cure spells do potentially work on unbelievers or heathens; after all, there's a value in it being used as a conversion tool.

Sure, that's a defensible position, and no doubt it'd be the answer most D&D DMs would give.

Great.  What happens when there's no chance in hell it'd actually work?

Most GMs should have a pretty good handle on what our players think about religion.  Some players love playing pious PCs, some are receptive to the notion, and some -- if you'll excuse the pun -- don't give a good goddamn.

If our gameworld deities exist, are paying attention and have the level of omniscience regarding their priests' activities most GMs credit them with having, they ought to have as good an idea as the GMs when PCs have no intention of converting, and at best will only pay lip service to the notion in the hopes of cadging more healing spells.

Quote from: Ravenswing;838410If our gameworld deities exist, are paying attention and have the level of omniscience regarding their priests' activities most GMs credit them with having, they ought to have as good an idea as the GMs when PCs have no intention of converting, and at best will only pay lip service to the notion in the hopes of cadging more healing spells.

I prefer deities who are not omniscient. Like the Greek/Roman and Norse Gods. One of the things I liked about the deities in Glorantha is their lack of omniscience.

As far as who they favor, I prefer the Gods to rely on demonstrated behavior of their worshippers like sacrifices, observing the proper ceremonies and rituals, and emulating the behaviors of the deity or the behaviors the deity says they value. I'm also cool with deities who play favorites or favor attractive, clever, skilled, and charismatic mortals.

Not all settings will have omniscient deities.  But you can also have healing spells require a saving throw to actually work.

In any case, if the PC is clearly lying about his intentions or faith, then I'd be fine with an omniscient deity refusing to allow the healing spell to work.