Okay, I know what a dicepool is. However, having only ever played DnD (and having a copy of GURPS:Hellboy and the ADnD monster manual) I haven't actually used them.

I've heard them described as clunky, usually in reference to Exalted. I've also heard it said that Exalted goes as high as 17 or 30 dice.

Anyway, I'm writing a game that uses d10 dicepools* (though generally only 5d10... a max of around 10d10) and I wanted to know what everyone thought about them. Or quick run throughs of existing systems and what you think about those; including what worked, what sucked, what they should have done, etc.

*d10s because after d6s and before d20s, it's what everybody has. Also it's useful for d100 rolls (not part of the resolution mechanic, but good for random name and NPC generaters and such). Also, we already tried a 3d6 pool system and it was broke all to hell.

I like dicepools.  There's satisfaction in rolling them, you can fiddle with the results a number of ways. Probabilities are harder to calculate and consider, especially if you use exploding (roll again) mechanics.

Dicepools tend to lose some of the 'fidelity' of, say, d20 or percentile based systems so they require a bit of a looser hand in putting together the system, less exactitude, thus I think they're generally better for looser more 'story' or 'action' based systems than ones that attempt to mirror realism very precisely.

That said I use a d6 dicepool system for @ctiv8 which is meant to be modern and realistic after a fashion and it works fine but that's because the small dicepool does seem to help represent average joes.

What are you using for a target number, and does that change?  And even more importantly what are you trying to accomplish in terms of tone.  Because you really need to look at the probability curves for the dice and understand what is doing what. There are a lot of different things that can happen.

As for "clunky" it depends a lot since dice pool covers a very wide range of differing options. If you align your dice mechanic with your tone and align your rules with your chosen mechanic the result can be slick as shitzat. If you don't then woe falls upon your family and all that play your game.

Well, I know you're gonna hate me for this, but both target numbers and required successes are variable. I might post in more detail later.

As for tone or what have you, I'm a big fan of fast-paced hack-n-slash. I am very much in love with DnD and Star Wars D20 (as well as my homebrew DnD, which ports over all my favorite SW rules and a few original tidbits). I was going for something that could work in at least a couple genres, if only because I don't want to write a brand-spanking new mechanic every time I put out a game.

I'm also making allowances for a later adaptation. I found this one guy's homebrew, fell in love with it, and got permission to make it into a game. Sweet. So, while such elements aren't canon in the modular version, I'm already considering things like hit location based on number of successes (attack, damage, and hit locations in only two rolls? that's an idea I'm proud of) and a sanity mechanic (nothing too terribly original, but I do hope to make something that uses less bookkeeping than the UA sanity rules, which I understand were ported from CoC).

Quote from: beejazzWell, I know you're gonna hate me for this, but both target numbers and required successes are variable. I might post in more detail later.

I don't hate you. I just hope you realize how wildly variable the odds can get with that. Especially with that tight a cap on the dice pool.  You are working with a d10 so you'll have a bit more granularity than moving the TN around with a d6, but when you need 2 dice out of 4 dice every step in the TN is going to produce a lot of change in the odds of success.

It's the underlying reason why SR3 used L-M-S-D that was then translated into a damage boxes based on the triangular series 1-3-6-10. Which in turn resulted in typically all or nothing damage.


So what range for TN do you expect to use, and what alters it?  Are you planning on 'exploding' dice (hitting at least a certain number with a die, say a 10, means you reroll it).

Quote from: blakkieI don't hate you. I just hope you realize how wildly variable the odds can get with that. Especially with that tight a cap on the dice pool.  You are working with a d10 so you'll have a bit more granularity than moving the TN around with a d6, but when you need 2 dice out of 4 dice every step in the TN is going to produce a lot of change in the odds of success.

I've got a full breakdown of all the odds for all possible target numbers and all possible numbers of successes. I may not be a math whiz, but I've got someone who is watching my back on this one.

QuoteIt's the underlying reason why SR3 used L-M-S-D that was then translated into a damage boxes based on the triangular series 1-3-6-10. Which in turn resulted in typically all or nothing damage.

0_o... What?!?!?!

QuoteSo what range for TN do you expect to use, and what alters it?  Are you planning on 'exploding' dice (hitting at least a certain number with a die, say a 10, means you reroll it).

Well, ability scores (the only modifier to a check... EVER) run between 7 and 10. Target numbers run between 12 and 16.

We have a system kind of like AC for saves (in that you don't roll checks on the defense, and opposed checks are generally avoided... speed up them PbPs). Your defense is your ability score +6. In the core system number of successes is determined by armor (1 for none, 2 for light, 3 for medium, 4 for heavy)... in the later adaptation, I was thinking of using number of successes to determine hit location (one or two is a bodyshot, three is an arm/handshot, four is a foot/legshot, five is a headshot).

Personally I dislike dice pools if they explode roll and add, but there okay if they are just roll an additional dice. I also prefer the TN to be fixed, or at least only vary by a small degree +/-1 say.

So for example, using a d10 dice pool mechanic, the TN would be normally 7, if there particular bad circumstances the TN would be 8, good then 6. But generally I prefer more success to be needed.

Say you have 5d10 in your dice pool. You roll five dice each dice that gets over 7 is a success, any 10's you get a success and roll the dice again with the same TN.

Any dicepool system that has TN's greater than can be rolled on the face of the dice, is faulty design in my opinion, especially if it needs to explode more than once. (Shadowrun I'm looking at you)

If you want to make a task harder with a dice pool system then you require more successes you don't raise the TN.

Quote from: beejazzI've got a full breakdown of all the odds for all possible target numbers and all possible numbers of successes. I may not be a math whiz, but I've got someone who is watching my back on this one.

Get him to graph it up if you don't know Excel or something. 3 axis bar graphs are good if you are messing around with the TN.

Also don't fall for the classic trap basing things off of just average successes rolled. It is the shape of the curve that matters.

Quote0_o... What?!?!?!

You know, you really should experience SR3.  See if you can find a dominatrix in your area that'll do that for you.  That way you can see firsthand a wide variety of ways to make a totally wacked dice pool system. But such is often the fate of pioneers.

QuoteWell, ability scores (the only modifier to a check... EVER) run between 7 and 10. Target numbers run between 12 and 16.

Ah, are you talking about adding a number to every die rolled? Sweet Jebus, your head be in d20 space. You really need to get out and play some of these games.  But that aside, let's assume that you subtract the Ability from the base TN to give you your actual TN (which is what I was looking for).  So TN ranging from 2 to 9.  Yah, that's pretty serious range to also be doing anything of note with number of hits.

Frankly I'm of the opinion that having anything close to that sort of range with TNs undercuts the very thing that makes dice pools work well. The multiple successes.

QuoteWe have a system kind of like AC for saves (in that you don't roll checks on the defense, and opposed checks are generally avoided... speed up them PbPs).

Opposed checks are typically the strong suit of dice pools, although admittedly not quite as much with a wide TN range.

QuoteYour defense is your ability score +6. In the core system number of successes is determined by armor (1 for none, 2 for light, 3 for medium, 4 for heavy)...

So what does the Ability score have to do with anything?  Or did I misunderstand what the modifier does?

Quotein the later adaptation, I was thinking of using number of successes to determine hit location (one or two is a bodyshot, three is an arm/handshot, four is a foot/legshot, five is a headshot).

With that TN moving around so much you have to be careful of going very quickly from occationally hitting to consistant headshot.  I'm not sure about the consiquences of bodyshot vs. arm etc. so I'll not comment there.

I agree with Bagpuss on the exploding die thing.  I'll also throw in that my prefered way is instead of having a 10 give you another chance to roll (meaning another chance to botch) is to just have it count as 2 successes.  That means you only have to throw the dice once.

"Exploding" dice aren't so bad if there's no penalty for certain numbers on the re-roll.

Instance:  In the D6 System, you roll a "Wild Die" with every pool; on a roll of 6 on the Wild Die, that die re-rolls and adds.  Another 6 does the same, but anything else just adds back in; there's no danger of "botching" or other such nastiness.  If you roll a bunch of ones, well...huh.  You rolled a bunch of ones.  Add'em up, big deal.  

Oh, and let's dispel an oft-held misconception about the Wild Die.  Rollng a 1 on the wild does not automatically indicate some sort of crazy failure; the GM has the option of either

• Subtracting the 1 nd the highest die rolled;
• Introducing a complication regardless of success or failure; or
• Adding in the 1, because it's just a die.

I generally disdain dice pools. But, that being said, I find the ones most tolerable to deal with are those that don't have any special little gimmicks that designers used to love to shove in, but make the system a pain to deal with in play. Things like cancelling or adding successes, exploding dice, etc., make your system more tedious and less transparent to understand in play.

Dice pools are pretty well the devil incarnate.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditDice pools are pretty well the devil incarnate.

RPGPundit

Well you managed to really keep the Substance down on that one, I'll give it a 0.5.  But I'm going to have to give it a 3 on Flair, and that's being generous. You aren't going to like what the Russian judge will have to say.

Quote from: blakkieGet him to graph it up if you don't know Excel or something. 3 axis bar graphs are good if you are messing around with the TN.

Yup. Everything's charted out.

QuoteAlso don't fall for the classic trap basing things off of just average successes rolled. It is the shape of the curve that matters.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

QuoteYou know, you really should experience SR3.  See if you can find a dominatrix in your area that'll do that for you.  That way you can see firsthand a wide variety of ways to make a totally wacked dice pool system. But such is often the fate of pioneers.

*shudders*

QuoteAh, are you talking about adding a number to every die rolled? Sweet Jebus, your head be in d20 space. You really need to get out and play some of these games.  But that aside, let's assume that you subtract the Ability from the base TN to give you your actual TN (which is what I was looking for).  So TN ranging from 2 to 9.  Yah, that's pretty serious range to also be doing anything of note with number of hits.

Wait... subtractive dicepools? Anyway, subtractive has always been rough on me. If it wasn't, I might actually use the GURPS book I got... well, aside from the part where GURPS:Hellboy had the bad layout/format and the very poorly explained magic/psionics.

QuoteFrankly I'm of the opinion that having anything close to that sort of range with TNs undercuts the very thing that makes dice pools work well. The multiple successes.

Meh. Again, I haven't seen them work IRL, but there's only five possible TNs and five possible numbers of successes.

To lower that down to just five successes would sting me a little, as would adding more dice.

QuoteOpposed checks are typically the strong suit of dice pools, although admittedly not quite as much with a wide TN range.

Uh... I can see it working with addative... otherwise I'm at a loss.

QuoteSo what does the Ability score have to do with anything?  Or did I misunderstand what the modifier does?

Let's say you want to attack. Roll your dicepool + Your ability (strength or whatever) vs. 6 + their ability (reflex). If you get enough successes (a function of armor) you hit.

Then you do damage. Roll your dicepool + your ability vs. 6 + their ability(toughness). Number of successes determines damage dealt.

Or you want to cast a spell on someone. Roll dicepool + your ability vs. 6 + their ability (luck or sanity or what have you, depending on the spell and which iteration of the game you play).

The six is kind of a stand in for the dice on the defense (kind of like how in D20, the arbitrary +10 to AC stands in for rolling your defense against every attack).

QuoteWith that TN moving around so much you have to be careful of going very quickly from occationally hitting to consistant headshot.  I'm not sure about the consiquences of bodyshot vs. arm etc. so I'll not comment there.

Well, we've also got dual successes for each hit location. Lets say you hit someone in the arm/hand. Then you roll damage. Roll three tens on your damage roll? If not, you just disarm them. If so, you actually cut off or break their arm. Headshots can mean blinded/stunned... or they can mean dead.

At least... that's what I've got so far. I like that it's still only two rolls, but the "three ten damage" rule sounds cheezy.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI generally disdain dice pools. But, that being said, I find the ones most tolerable to deal with are those that don't have any special little gimmicks that designers used to love to shove in, but make the system a pain to deal with in play. Things like cancelling or adding successes, exploding dice, etc., make your system more tedious and less transparent to understand in play.

I've seen "Don't Rest Your Head"... that the sort of thing you're talking about? Like all that "pain dice" "fatigue dice" bull?