What edition of Traveller are you referring to?

Quote from: Dumarest;1012504Maybe someone should write a game that divorces the usual statistics from things that are more like acquired skills not wholly resulting from inherent attributes. Or you'll need a list of 27 stats to portray a person better than the common Str, Int, Wis, Dex, Con, Cha. Or just take it as it is, a game with very little basis in reality.

Yep, it can easily spiral into absurdity and 6 stats does seem to be a sweet spot. I prefer averaged stat bonuses myself. It helps to reduce dump stats, evens out exceptionally high / low stats and allows for differences in similar but different tasks. Melee could use STR+DEX to determine a bonus, while ranged weapons might use DEX+INT. Something like running or gymnastics might be based on DEX+CON to help prevent the situation of an 80 year old master jeweler from being able to keep up with an Olympic athlete in a marathon as well as turning out world class diamonds.

Quote from: Reckall;1012261So, it appears obvious to me that I do have another "characteristic" beside Dex.

I would say you have no characteristics (or approaching infinite characteristics, take your pick). Human beings have complex collections of natural abilities and learned skills, some of which are strongly related to each other, some of which only lightly related, and some of which have very little relationship (other than perhaps time spent perfecting one is time away from perfecting the other). "Attributes," if people in real life have them at all, would be a completely descriptive attempt at splitting up human abilities into categories. Were that the case, then we'd undoubtedly have all sorts of debates on whether dividing a person's aptitudes into 6 categories was the right metric (kind of mirroring the real world "do IQ tests test peoples' intelligence or merely their ability to take IQ tests?' debate), but in the end it would be a categorization question. TTRPGs are unlike real life in that their scores are proscriptive, and thus there can be a trait which governs both basketball playing and sharpshooting.

Quote from: Dumarest;1012504Maybe someone should write a game that divorces the usual statistics from things that are more like acquired skills not wholly resulting from inherent attributes. Or you'll need a list of 27 stats to portray a person better than the common Str, Int, Wis, Dex, Con, Cha. Or just take it as it is, a game with very little basis in reality.

That's vaguely the way HERO system is going. 6e ended all figured stats, so your Dexterity score, speed, and Offensive Combat Value (ex. for firearms) are completely divorced entities which you purchase separately. I have no idea where the system is going (except supposedly circling the drain), but following the trend line from 4e to 5e to 6e, I could see a theoretical 7th edition doing away with stats like Dexterity and Intelligence altogether, pulling the last few figured things (like initiative), and then making you buy each skill straight from default level with points. No attributes in the traditional sense what-so-ever.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1012572I would say you have no characteristics (or approaching infinite characteristics, take your pick). Human beings have complex collections of natural abilities and learned skills, some of which are strongly related to each other, some of which only lightly related, and some of which have very little relationship (other than perhaps time spent perfecting one is time away from perfecting the other). "Attributes," if people in real life have them at all, would be a completely descriptive attempt at splitting up human abilities into categories. Were that the case, then we'd undoubtedly have all sorts of debates on whether dividing a person's aptitudes into 6 categories was the right metric (kind of mirroring the real world "do IQ tests test peoples' intelligence or merely their ability to take IQ tests?' debate), but in the end it would be a categorization question. TTRPGs are unlike real life in that their scores are proscriptive, and thus there can be a trait which governs both basketball playing and sharpshooting.



That's vaguely the way HERO system is going. 6e ended all figured stats, so your Dexterity score, speed, and Offensive Combat Value (ex. for firearms) are completely divorced entities which you purchase separately. I have no idea where the system is going (except supposedly circling the drain), but following the trend line from 4e to 5e to 6e, I could see a theoretical 7th edition doing away with stats like Dexterity and Intelligence altogether, pulling the last few figured things (like initiative), and then making you buy each skill straight from default level with points. No attributes in the traditional sense what-so-ever.

Making the 8 primary and 6 figured stats into just 14 stats (actually 13 as they dropped Comliness in favor of making it advantage/disadvantage) made absolutely no sense to me. You are right, it would actually make more sense to just drop many of the stats and let people buy the resulting abilities directly.

The real trick with this is that there really no such thing as a division between "skill" and "ability score" in real life.

When you practice shooting, the reason you get better is because you are training your body to do a number of things at once. Your strengthening your muscles to hold the weapon steady, training the visual processor of your brain to pick targets more rapidly, toughening your hands in high friction points, becoming accustomed to the loud report so that you no longer jump, you learn not to place your thumb too highly to avoid slide bite, and a million other things.

Which are attributes? Which are skills? There is no difference. You are simply better at shooting, which is both an attribute of its own and a skill at the same time.

Quote from: Reckall;1012261Thoughts?

You have the feat that allows you to use your INT instead of DEX for attack rolls.

Or you have advantage with ranged attacks?

Quote from: DavetheLost;1012318I have encountered games that had both Agility and Dexterity. I can't recall which of the many games I have encountered they were.

Fantasy Age uses Dexterity and Accuracy, as well as Perception.

Quote from: Dumarest;1012568What edition of Traveller are you referring to?

Don't know the edition, but found this on stats:
Alien  characters  use  many  of  the  same  characteristics  as  humans
–   they   have   Strength,   Dexterity,   Endurance,   Intelligence   and
Education.  However,  alien  species  may  have  different  criteria  for
Social  Standing:  Caste  (a  genetic  structure  for  social  hierarchy)  or
Charisma  (small  group  hierarchy).  Even  Social  Standing  for  aliens
may not apply when interacting with humans. When dealing with a
race that has a different concept of Social Standing, all DMs from
Social Standing or its alien equivalent – whether positive or negative
– are halved.

This, while talking about 'aliens' also includes certain human cultures and 'offspring' (either due to change in social norms or genetic modification), but the same idea could be used for classic fantasy setting too where two of the attributes could be replaced or added depending on what the character is better at (like Perception or Speed, or perhaps Might for a magic & damage oriented mage)

Quote from: Toadmaster;1012569Yep, it can easily spiral into absurdity and 6 stats does seem to be a sweet spot. I prefer averaged stat bonuses myself. It helps to reduce dump stats, evens out exceptionally high / low stats and allows for differences in similar but different tasks. Melee could use STR+DEX to determine a bonus, while ranged weapons might use DEX+INT. Something like running or gymnastics might be based on DEX+CON to help prevent the situation of an 80 year old master jeweler from being able to keep up with an Olympic athlete in a marathon as well as turning out world class diamonds.

This is how many BRP based games handle Attribute bonuses for skills. The bonus is determined by a pair of attributes rather than just one.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1012572I would say you have no characteristics (or approaching infinite characteristics, take your pick). Human beings have complex collections of natural abilities and learned skills, some of which are strongly related to each other, some of which only lightly related, and some of which have very little relationship (other than perhaps time spent perfecting one is time away from perfecting the other). "Attributes," if people in real life have them at all, would be a completely descriptive attempt at splitting up human abilities into categories. Were that the case, then we'd undoubtedly have all sorts of debates on whether dividing a person's aptitudes into 6 categories was the right metric (kind of mirroring the real world "do IQ tests test peoples' intelligence or merely their ability to take IQ tests?' debate), but in the end it would be a categorization question. TTRPGs are unlike real life in that their scores are proscriptive, and thus there can be a trait which governs both basketball playing and sharpshooting.

FUDGE, FATE, and Castle Falkenstein are three xample games in which character "Attributes" are descriptive of the abilities a character has and can encompase physical aptitudes, mental aptitudes, and learned skills. Thus a character could have attributes like Marksmanship, Strength, or Stunt Driver.

There is no a priori reason why game atrributes must follow the model of D&D, GURPS, and Traveller.

Quote from: Beldar;1012598The real trick with this is that there really no such thing as a division between "skill" and "ability score" in real life.

When you practice shooting, the reason you get better is because you are training your body to do a number of things at once. Your strengthening your muscles to hold the weapon steady, training the visual processor of your brain to pick targets more rapidly, toughening your hands in high friction points, becoming accustomed to the loud report so that you no longer jump, you learn not to place your thumb too highly to avoid slide bite, and a million other things.

Which are attributes? Which are skills? There is no difference. You are simply better at shooting, which is both an attribute of its own and a skill at the same time.

This doesn't seem to account for the fact some people seem naturally better suited to certain tasks than others. There are people who "have an ear for music" and can pick up playing musical instruments very easily, and others with "a tin ear" who just have no aptitude for music and will struggle regardless of how much they practice. You find the same thing with sports, art, science etc.

Stats typically represent this natural ability, while skills (or class / level) represent actual practice / experience with a task.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1012640This is how many BRP based games handle Attribute bonuses for skills. The bonus is determined by a pair of attributes rather than just one.

Yep, and even carry this over to damage bonus using STR+SIZ, because just being big or being strong isn't as good as being big and strong.

Quote from: Beldar;1012598The real trick with this is that there really no such thing as a division between "skill" and "ability score" in real life.

When you practice shooting, the reason you get better is because you are training your body to do a number of things at once. Your strengthening your muscles to hold the weapon steady, training the visual processor of your brain to pick targets more rapidly, toughening your hands in high friction points, becoming accustomed to the loud report so that you no longer jump, you learn not to place your thumb too highly to avoid slide bite, and a million other things.

Which are attributes? Which are skills? There is no difference. You are simply better at shooting, which is both an attribute of its own and a skill at the same time.

Attribute is natural ability, skills are learned. Think of a sniper. Having a natural ability to shoot is great, but marksmanship is only part of the training necessary to become a sniper.

I remember one game that paired 3d6 ability scores to share one of the dice, so you couldn't have a 3 strength and an 18 constituion (or vice versa). So ability score plus different skill levels is a little like that; the ability score plays the role of the shared dice, and the skill level added plays the part of the dice that are specific to only one ability score.

I think I like fewer ability scores, but probably just what I'm used to. And sometimes with few ability scores one gets used for somewhat inconsistent purposes (Wisdom in D&D 5e is both perception - so animals tend to have good scores - and ability with divine magic, which really seems to call out for a split).

Quote from: Dumarest;1012290That'd be because dexterity is different from hand-eye coordination.

That is what he is saying, and his point is that D&D (and most other games) treat them as the same thing. It doesn't particularly bother me as a game convention, but it is obviously wrong. Dragonquest is another game that separates gross-body agility from manual dexterity. I suppose if you are really trying to be hyper granular and realistic you might need 3-4 stats to represent all the non-overlaping abilities that are called on when you manipulate yourself or other objects through space.