This is why a lot of early RPGs had a lot more ability score/attributes than just the 6.

Like Rolemaster has Agility and Quickness. Space Opera had Agility and Dexterity. Boot Hill has Speed and then an accuracy rating for both guns and thrown weapons. The Morrow Project has Dexterity and Accuracy. The Atlantean Trilogy/Arcanun has Speed and Dexterity. IIRC, Star Frontiers had Reaction Speed and Agility? Something like that. Bureau 13 has Agility, Dexterity, and Accuracy.

With that said, there's also a bit more to shooting. For instance, squeezing the trigger gently to reduce pulling the gun off the target.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1012295Going strictly by how RPGs have traditionally used the term though I would agree with your comment. RPGs started off with the wrong word a long time ago and it has stuck.

The dictionary definition of dexterity specifically suggests hand eye coordination. Agility is a better word for the whole body coordination that most games assume but call Dex.

This is actually how it started out.  In OD&D, Dexterity only grants bonuses to missile attack rolls and nothing else.  There were no AC bonuses for anything.  

Of course that didn't last long as Fighter started getting AC adjustments for exceptional Dexterity starting Supplement I - no other classes initially got AC bonuses.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1012318I have encountered games that had both Agility and Dexterity. I can't recall which of the many games I have encountered they were.

I've seen that in a number of games.  I like the idea.  There's something complementary about Strength and Constitution, and likewise Dexterity and Agility.

Quote from: Reckall;1012261So, it appears obvious to me that I do have another "characteristic" beside Dex. A character with an high Dex can pull out and nock an arrow faster than me - but this is not enough. As I said, I firmly believe to have Dex 7-8 - so there is no way, for me, to be correctly portrayed in, for example, D&D. IM(not so H)O, precision should be tied to Int: To me it always came natural to build a tridimensional "mind picture" (which can include people/objects in motion) and then act so to place something in a certain point - and I always felt that this kind of skill comes from the mind, not from the body.

Thoughts?

Why I went with Coordination and Agility as separate attributes in my games - I am the same as you, very fast and accurate with anything involving my hands, and fairly clumsy with whole body movement. Not that it's any big thing. but I didn't care for lumping it all together.

Would've that just go under Sleight of Hand skill?

At the other end of the spectrum are games that have just three (or sometimes fewer) Attributes, Body, Mind, Spirit being common.  Or something like FUDGE or Castle Falkenstein that let you freeform attributes. In both of those games a character might be described as having Exceptional Marksmanship as an Attribute.

In my game, I use both Dexterity (hand-eye coordination) and Agility (physical maneuverability/footwork). They are 2 different things for sure. As for combat (be it melee, bows, or guns), in my game it's based on more than one attribute. Dexterity is absolutely a factor, but it's not the only one. In the case of ranged projectile weapon combat, Perception (awareness/senses/intuition) plays a major role as well.

In your example of shooting, you probably have a 'good eye' (Perception) which certainly helps when aiming. With basketball, you're also better at 'aiming', whether it's shooting for the hoop or knowing exactly where to put your passes. You have great Perception, even if your Dexterity and Agility aren't all that good.

If your Agility is that low, but your Accuracy is that high, I am wondering why the other basketball team isn't just closing out on you at the 3P line. Can't hit anything if you can't get open...:-)

On point, though, strikes me as a decent "Accuracy" skill versus raw agility.

Quote from: cranebump;1012418If your Agility is that low, but your Accuracy is that high, I am wondering why the other basketball team isn't just closing out on you at the 3P line. Can't hit anything if you can't get open...:-)

On point, though, strikes me as a decent "Accuracy" skill versus raw agility.

We had players for basketball/football (what some call soccer) in the past who were so fast that defense couldn't keep up with them and they had time to slow down and be more precize/accurate for getting points/goals. While I think Agility might be part of Dex, Accuracy and Speed are a different issue. In my mind (and as per RPG maker games) Speed usually also means how often you can act compared to others, not just actual movement speed. It might also grant you AC as Dex.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012472We had players for basketball/football (what some call soccer) in the past who were so fast that defense couldn't keep up with them and they had time to slow down and be more precize/accurate for getting points/goals. While I think Agility might be part of Dex, Accuracy and Speed are a different issue. In my mind (and as per RPG maker games) Speed usually also means how often you can act compared to others, not just actual movement speed. It might also grant you AC as Dex.

Speed / actions have been used to represent the ability to function under stress or quickness of decision making. Twilight 2000's Coolness Under Fire is a specific example of that, D&D's multiple attacks at higher levels can easily be explained in a similar way. HERO has separate movement stats (inches per action) and action stats (Speed) which does separate Speed from Dex, although Dex is the primary factor for calculating the Speed stat.  

These things are always a trade off, D&D tries to fit everything into 6 stats, HERO on the other end has 14 (8 primary and 6 figured). GURPS only has 4 (although there are some figured stats that pretend they aren't).

"These things are always a"  ...?

As I thought about Speed I remembered that this is basically the point of action points for games like Fallout (SPECIAL)

The same could be said for Strength. A character might be inaccurate with a sword, but do a lot of damage when they hit.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1012481The same could be said for Strength. A character might be inaccurate with a sword, but do a lot of damage when they hit.

True, that is again about Accuracy, or in classic cases Agility/Dexterity.

The more I think about it the less I actually like the lack of Accuracy and the D&D handling (or lack thereof) Speed which as mentioned above is just folded into getting more attacks on higher levels (but that more or less excludes the magic users and the warrior gets most, totally disabling the option to make a quick, agile wizard or druid)

Maybe someone should write a game that divorces the usual statistics from things that are more like acquired skills not wholly resulting from inherent attributes. Or you'll need a list of 27 stats to portray a person better than the common Str, Int, Wis, Dex, Con, Cha. Or just take it as it is, a game with very little basis in reality.

Quote from: Dumarest;1012504Maybe someone should write a game that divorces the usual statistics from things that are more like acquired skills not wholly resulting from inherent attributes. Or you'll need a list of 27 stats to portray a person better than the common Str, Int, Wis, Dex, Con, Cha. Or just take it as it is, a game with very little basis in reality.

I wonder if something like the handling of stats like Traveller could be adapted for this. Some characters have different stats than other ones depending on what their origin/focus is without breaking the system. This could mean additonal Accuracy stat for Archers (as example) or Speed for a Thief (again, just an example)

If I remember correctly Traveller can have up to 2 stats for a character which isn't a core stat. In case of D&D this would mean in addition to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma one could have 2 other stats (Perception and Luck as example), or perhaps replacement for a core stat like Wisdom which doesn't represent the char much.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012505If I remember correctly Traveller can have up to 2 stats for a character which isn't a core stat.

I don't remember that. It sounds inconsistent with Traveller's desire to use uniform hexadecimal codes for describing characters (and planets, and ships, and....)