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The recent threads about religions inspired me to finally ask this question. I've been tampering with the following problematic:

How to do a religious conflict between religions, when you have gods which are certain of existence (and the conflict is somewhat realistic). The gods themselves aren't all evil (there are evil gods, but to them everyone is opposed).    I was thinking perhaps of simply opposed pantheons, but I'm not sure if that's not too cliche. Or perhaps relegate the warfare to area of conspiracies, where gods'd fight and conspire so that kings of nations'd name them their patrons - or in fact, see how many dynasties the gods themselves could spawn.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728253The recent threads about religions inspired me to finally ask this question. I've been tampering with the following problematic:

How to do a religious conflict between religions, when you have gods which are certain of existence (and the conflict is somewhat realistic). The gods themselves aren't all evil (there are evil gods, but to them everyone is opposed).    I was thinking perhaps of simply opposed pantheons, but I'm not sure if that's not too cliche. Or perhaps relegate the warfare to area of conspiracies, where gods'd fight and conspire so that kings of nations'd name them their patrons - or in fact, see how many dynasties the gods themselves could spawn.

I think both can work, but the later is kind of interesting because virtually any development could be part of the cosmic chess game. Seems like a situation where the deities have a gentlemen's agreement to be hands-off, and conditions of victory may be elusive to the pawns involved (maybe one god is betting another that his followers can't abstain from war from a full year or that a flood of wealth would ruin them).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;728257I think both can work, but the later is kind of interesting because virtually any development could be part of the cosmic chess game. Seems like a situation where the deities have a gentlemen's agreement to be hands-off, and conditions of victory may be elusive to the pawns involved (maybe one god is betting another that his followers can't abstain from war from a full year or that a flood of wealth would ruin them).

I like this - this is why I decided to run the ideas through you guys, since sometimes I just need that additional jolt :D. The hands - off approach also fits, since at the start of the game, the world's picking up after the last war between gods, that caused creation of demons.

I think there's still some distance between knowing that the gods are real things, and knowing any of the following: who they are exactly, which acts they're responsible for, and what they want you to do.

For example, you could have a primal deity of (say) fertility and the harvest that's worshipped under a bunch of different names. She doesn't much care, so long as babies are born and crops are grown.

The specifics of dogma generally don't flow from her, they flow from her worshippers, so there may be warrings sects that don't even realize they worship the same being.

Legends of her life story may accumulate; some of it will be pure fantasy.  In one region, a story has taken root that she's actually the daughter of an older fertility goddess whose time has passed.  Maybe this is true, maybe it isn't.

Maybe gods are such vast beings that the human notion of a deity having a single, specific identity and set of memories is too simple.  Perhaps for some deities, there's a confusing profusion of avatars and angels doing great deeds and bringing prophetic visions, but each of these is really only comes into for a specific purpose.

Distinct incarnations are confused for reappearances of the same being, and depending on the social clout and wealth of the person that saw them, are taken to be "the real" incarnation of "the deity", and are worshipped to the exclusion of all others.

Another deity, a greedy trickster, does have this very strong identification with a specific avatar, but can freely make copies of himself, some of which he ends up warring with, murdering, imprisoning, dismembering for magical spell components. Perhaps the "original" is long dead, and the essential nature of this deity is the endless jockying between his shadow remnants.

In terms of war between gods, it could be that the human realm is just too fragile for gods to throw their bulk around in - they're powerful, but perhaps not subtle, and direct intervention in the moral realm risks escalation.

Or perhaps the gods aren't actually that powerful - they represent primal forces or beings, source of power that can be cajoled, enticed and placated, but manifest mostly as dreams and broad, subtle influences.  They simply can't concentrate their intention as finely as mortals and temporal beings can.

They can, however, lay the groundwork for great changes, by implanting a certain restlessness in a whole population, a certain reverence for strength and decisive action, the chance of a great hero being thrown up (for good or ill).

Quote from: Rincewind1;728253How to do a religious conflict between religions, when you have gods which are certain of existence (and the conflict is somewhat realistic). The gods themselves aren't all evil (there are evil gods, but to them everyone is opposed).    I was thinking perhaps of simply opposed pantheons, but I'm not sure if that's not too cliche. Or perhaps relegate the warfare to area of conspiracies, where gods'd fight and conspire so that kings of nations'd name them their patrons - or in fact, see how many dynasties the gods themselves could spawn.

There are two possibilities:

a) The gods actually exist, but in practice they're actually beyond human understanding. Any "religious conflict" is really originating from the humans involved in each religion and has little or nothing to do with the gods themselves. (Although the gods might have some demi-human avatars who, because they're closer to humanity, are able to get caught up in the squabbles of humanity.)

b) The gods actually exist and are the instigators of the conflict (or get pulled into it). If there's a religious conflict, it's because the gods actually dislike each other (or have some cause to fight each other). If they didn't, they'd tell their mortal followers to cut it out.

The first possibility allows you to have religious conflicts that work pretty much like the real world: The gods are real, but ineffable. Wars are fought in their name, but they don't really have any active opinion on the matter.

The latter is more complicated. But, basically, you just need to figure out a metaphysic which explains why the gods have to fight through mortal intermediaries (instead of just duking it out in the Outer Planes or whatever). Ultimately, this probably ties into whatever reason the gods have for being interested in the mortal plane in the first place. A few ideas include:

- The actual goal of the conflict is on the mortal plane. That could be an artifact. Or if gods derive their power from their worshipers, then simply murdering your enemy's followers can be a good way to cut his power. Since the goal is on the mortal plane, that's where the fighting happens.

- The gods have a strict armistice pact that applies everywhere except the mortal plane. If they were to launch hostilities elsewhere all the other gods (or possibly the Ancient Ones) would squash them like bugs.

- Actually, the big war is already being fought in the Outer Planes. Armies of the faithful will be marching through the portals as soon as they're mustered. (Like American doughboys heading Europe.) Actions on the mortal plane are mostly about sabotaging these reinforcement efforts.

- The wars on the mortal plane are a sideshow to the real conflict that's happening in the heavens. The war probably isn't going to be decided in Ethiopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_African_Campaign_%28World_War_II%29), but that doesn't mean the East African Campaign can be completely ignored.

Aside from the excellent points raised above, why not borrow from Earth's history?

Think of all the religious conflicts since wars of religion started.  Weren't they all perpetrated and fought by people who believed (or claimed they did, anyway) that the gods for which they were fighting were, indeed, real?  "Deus volt" is a concept going all the way back to the freaking Bronze Age.

Quote from: Ravenswing;728293Aside from the excellent points raised above, why not borrow from Earth's history?

Think of all the religious conflicts since wars of religion started.  Weren't they all perpetrated and fought by people who believed (or claimed they did, anyway) that the gods for which they were fighting were, indeed, real?  "Deus volt" is a concept going all the way back to the freaking Bronze Age.

I intend to, but at the same time, I wish to avoid falling into the trap of 'It's just like X, with serial numbers filled off." In other words, I'd say there still would be a slight difference between mentality of those who are 99% sure Gods exist, and those who have very definite proof they do, and people who may even become gods themselves.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728299I intend to, but at the same time, I wish to avoid falling into the trap of 'It's just like X, with serial numbers filled off." In other words, I'd say there still would be a slight difference between mentality of those who are 99% sure Gods exist, and those who have very definite proof they do, and people who may even become gods themselves.

A great many believers in our various cultures would tell you, with complete sincerity, that they indeed have very definite proof that their God exists.

What you're really suggesting is that there's a difference in the mentalities between those who are sure that "God" exists, and those who have documentary evidence which convinces unbelievers.  I'm not sold on that premise.

Beyond that, look at most fantasy campaigns.  What objective evidence do they have that their gods, in point of fact, exist?  That priests perform "miracles?"  Nah, that's just another branch of magic; the wizards do "miraculous" things on a daily basis.  That the priest "summoned" her god?  Yeah, and the archmage summons demons and elementals ... sure the priest isn't confused?  

Really, our only reason for the objective existence of deities in many a fantasy campaign is OOC: that the GM assures us they do; the background material says so.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728299I intend to, but at the same time, I wish to avoid falling into the trap of 'It's just like X, with serial numbers filled off." In other words, I'd say there still would be a slight difference between mentality of those who are 99% sure Gods exist, and those who have very definite proof they do, and people who may even become gods themselves.

What if the people are not supposed to worship the Gods, but the struggle between them and the balance that forms? Like what if Yin and Yang were actual Gods?

Another option is to have a plethora of 'small Gods'. Real world pantheons had them as well as the big hitters. For every Zeus, there was a Harpocrates (God of Silence) or God of the East Wind.

With smaller portfolios, conflict wouldn't mean as much to the Gods themselves, and in most cases would be abstract to human eyes. Sure, the God of Sunrise is the opposite of the God of Dusk, but what point is there for a conflict between the two? Unless we're talking dawn of mankind sort of stuff where the God of Dusk is fighting for eternal twilight and the God of Bonfires is in trouble for leaking the secret of Fire to the younger races, these guys have their job, their portfolio and their worshipers. The conflict is then down to the congregations.

Quote from: One Horse Town;728346Another option is to have a plethora of 'small Gods'. Real world pantheons had them as well as the big hitters. For every Zeus, there was a Harpocrates (God of Silence) or God of the East Wind.

With smaller portfolios, conflict wouldn't mean as much to the Gods themselves, and in most cases would be abstract to human eyes. Sure, the God of Sunrise is the opposite of the God of Dusk, but what point is there for a conflict between the two? Unless we're talking dawn of mankind sort of stuff where the God of Dusk is fighting for eternal twilight and the God of Bonfires is in trouble for leaking the secret of Fire to the younger races, these guys have their job, their portfolio and their worshipers. The conflict is then down to the congregations.

Yes, it is pretty easy to play up the natural conflict of gods' portfolios.

Go to any seashore, witness the eternal war between the gods of sea and land.

Build something and watch it deteriorate, eternal war between gods of order and entropy.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728253The recent threads about religions inspired me to finally ask this question. I've been tampering with the following problematic:

How to do a religious conflict between religions, when you have gods which are certain of existence (and the conflict is somewhat realistic). The gods themselves aren't all evil (there are evil gods, but to them everyone is opposed).    I was thinking perhaps of simply opposed pantheons, but I'm not sure if that's not too cliche. Or perhaps relegate the warfare to area of conspiracies, where gods'd fight and conspire so that kings of nations'd name them their patrons - or in fact, see how many dynasties the gods themselves could spawn.

First what matters in actual play is how the NPCs act. Now a person act is in part formed by their culture. Religion is the culture of worshipping a deity or a group of deity.  Second, the mythology behind a religion is a source of adventure seeds.

A gamable religion is one that provides motivations for NPCs and adventure seeds for a campaign.

Now your question.

There are a lot of choices both fiction and real world. What I opted for myself are the following guidelines

1) That there is absolute evil. Beings who sole desire is to dominate and bend creation to their will as they see fit,  how act life as the character know it. For purposes of these guildelines they are demons.

2) That sentient beings are not stupid and don't adopt maleficent deities as a religion. A religion may not be pleasant but it is believed to be "good" from the point of view of the culture adopting it.

3) Cults are not religions. Individuals and small groups do crazy shit all the time and this where you find your worship of maleficent deities.

4) The deities are immensely powerful beings with the power to shatter known creation on their own. However they don't want to for a variety of reasons. And they all work together against the demons who will destroy creation.

5) The deities are finite beings capable of being shaped by events and influenced. They are not one big happy family singing together because individual deities have opted for incompatible approaches to protect creation and detail with demons.

6) Sentient beings have true free will.

7) Because of their power and impact on those who deal directly the deities have a set of rules they following in dealing with sentient beings and creations. Basically the default mode is to operate through faith, miracles are inexplicable by the standards of science or the arts.

8) The elves are immortal and some living elves have walked with the gods.

I implemented this as ten deities who espouse what I call universal philosophies. Instead of a God of the Left Door Widget the revelations granted by the gods tend to be a little more general. Three are considered "evil" by most cultures except the one that adopted their religion. The three evil religions are

Set - Who teaches order and absolute discipline in the face of the threat of demonic influence. Religions with their origins in the worship of Set tend to be found in tyrannical empires. Set major rival is Mitra the Goddess of Honor and Justice.

Hamakhis - Considered to be the judge of the Dead and revealed a ascetic religion of discipline. However somewhere along the line, the religion got the idea that in the conflict with the demons Hamakhis had to use Orb of Chaos as a weapons. Now only Hamakhis keeps the Orb in check or creation will be destroyed. This require the regular practice of human sacrifice to send him the soul needed to do this.

Kalis - The only one of the major deities that has only cults following her. Her revelation is basically to fight the demon monsters one has to become a monster. Werewolves, Vampires and other monstrious creatures are her creation. The elves said she was a huntress and a goddess of the wild before the demons got ahold of her and drove her mad with revenge.

The remaining seven are more mainstream than the above three.

Plus there in many regions a elven based sylvan culture/religion dominates the shorter lived races like humans. It not that the elves conquered human, halflings, etc. It just some groups/tribes of shorter lived races are so in awe of the elves they adopt many of their mores and belief. Think elven groupies.

Hope all of this is food for thought.

It all depends on the way that deities are portrayed in the setting.

Deities sometimes act themselves in the setting. The main example of this is Heroic Greece.

Deities can be removed from the world. One example is Glorantha.

Deities can be out of the world but want to get in. One example is Call of Cthulhu.

Where deities are in the world, they confront each other by fighting or by expanding their influence.

Where deities are outside the world and want to get in, they fight by either attacking other deities that are also outside the world, or by expanding their own cults and influencing people.

Where deities are removed from the world, they normally act through their cults/religions. I see a cult as the following of an individual deity in a certain way and a religion as a collection of cults that worship in similar ways. So, the worship of Orlanth Adventurous is a cult, but the Heortling Religion covers the worship of many deities in a similar way. Following Saint George is a cult, but the Catholic Church is a religion covering the following of various Saints as well as worship of a deity.

I normally play religious conflict as a series of contests between priests/priestesses. This can work for many types of cult/religion. Each side tries to exert influence on the other and the results can change one or both of the cults/religions. How to do this depends on the game and how the campaign works.

In a RQ/Legend/BRP game, I would compare the Lore/Pact in an opposed contest. This would not be a single roll, but a series of debates or magical contests. Each level of success would give 1D6 to that side. At the culmination of the contest, each side rolls the sum of their D6s on 1D100 and compare the results. Having the backing of their cults would give bonuses to the individual Lore/Pact skills, as would possessing secrets from the other cult, relics and so on.

As an example, Father Christmas is an English folkloric character, Santa Claus is an American folkloric character and Ded Moroz is a Russian/Slavic folkloric character. When Santa Claus and Father Christmas met, they each absorbed some of the other's character - Father Christmas gained the red and white suit; Santa Claus gained a rosy face and a fondness for drinking sherry; Some things remained separate - Father Christmas lives in Lappland, Santa Claus lives at the North Pole, for example. When Santa Claus met Ded Moroz, however, very little was exchanged - Ded Moroz lost his wicked nature and sorcery, becoming a more genial figure.

That could be considered as a series of opposed contests where each side wagers part of the character in the contest.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728299I intend to, but at the same time, I wish to avoid falling into the trap of 'It's just like X, with serial numbers filled off." In other words, I'd say there still would be a slight difference between mentality of those who are 99% sure Gods exist, and those who have very definite proof they do, and people who may even become gods themselves.

I see this attitude often, and I think it does poor justice to the certainty of religious faith. Are you yourself religious? Just curious. I don't want to make any assumptions, but I do seem to see this idea more from people who aren't.

As for how to do it without 'evil gods,' I think Raven nonetheless has a point. Even in a monotheistic setting, people are still people, and they can misinterpret, disagree, etc, even with the presence of divine intervention. Ostensibly, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same God after all, and look how that's worked out.

I have a post of a basic setting riff along those lines here, if you'd like to take a look: http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=479368&postcount=8

Don't even bother with the Gods. Focus on the religions that people have formed around these Gods. People are more than capable of taking what other people say and just running with it in weird directions. Walter, God of Cheese and FGUGWAHADS, Lord of Crackers may really like each other. But their worshipers are at each others throats because that's what people do.

"My Space Daddy is bigger than your Space Daddy"

"It's crackers and cheese, not cheese and crackers."

"Crackers don't matter."

Etc., etc.

If you want religious discord, make religions that are discordant with one another.

TL;DR -  Don't design Gods, design religions.

well...you've played in Celtricia.

you've seen the how important faith is and how religion is critical...without losing mystery or the human element.

You've dealt with how the cosmology and such relates to religion.  and how the unknowability makes faith more important.    i have frankly felt spoiled, twixt thee, Limetom, and Mett....

Quote from: Gardeian;728745"My Space Daddy is bigger than your Space Daddy"

"It's crackers and cheese, not cheese and crackers."

"Crackers don't matter."

Do you break a boiled egg at the little end of the big end?

Thanks all for some food for thoughts - I'll give my thoughts so far tomorrow, what I'm setting out to achieve.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728261I like this - this is why I decided to run the ideas through you guys, since sometimes I just need that additional jolt :D. The hands - off approach also fits, since at the start of the game, the world's picking up after the last war between gods, that caused creation of demons.

Hm.  That setup also allows for an aggressive form of atheism to prevent another godswar - "FFS don't worship, it just encourages them."

Well, it won't be atheism as such.  Obviously this worldview accepts that gods exist.  Perhaps more of an "iconoclast" approach?

Then again, the gods - or at least the miracles they fuel - might be the only defence against the demons that the gods themselves created.  Or there may be a few decent gods amidst the pantheon who promise something other than "Hey, worship me, get some shinies, you'll be dead before the next godswar, really."

Quote from: Rincewind1;728253The recent threads about religions inspired me to finally ask this question. I've been tampering with the following problematic:

How to do a religious conflict between religions, when you have gods which are certain of existence (and the conflict is somewhat realistic). The gods themselves aren't all evil (there are evil gods, but to them everyone is opposed).    I was thinking perhaps of simply opposed pantheons, but I'm not sure if that's not too cliche. Or perhaps relegate the warfare to area of conspiracies, where gods'd fight and conspire so that kings of nations'd name them their patrons - or in fact, see how many dynasties the gods themselves could spawn.

There's the Gloranthan pantheons if you want something big.
You can start here:
http://moondesign.glorantha.com/library/religions/index.html

despite the title, this thread is about Glorantha, and fairly(?) accurate read, scroll down until you get to
"Glorantha: Introduction to the Hero Wars"
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3421366&userid=188217&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

The thing with Glorantha is that the world, magic, religion and people are all tied together. You asked about "opposed pantheons" and the most well known by players in the setting is Orlanth Vs Lunar.

Quote from: Rincewind1;728253The recent threads about religions inspired me to finally ask this question. I've been tampering with the following problematic:

How to do a religious conflict between religions, when you have gods which are certain of existence (and the conflict is somewhat realistic). The gods themselves aren't all evil (there are evil gods, but to them everyone is opposed).    I was thinking perhaps of simply opposed pantheons, but I'm not sure if that's not too cliche. Or perhaps relegate the warfare to area of conspiracies, where gods'd fight and conspire so that kings of nations'd name them their patrons - or in fact, see how many dynasties the gods themselves could spawn.

I think you should take a look at Lords of Olympus; see how there's a lot of conflict that can happen between gods, it can be even in the same pantheon.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;729830I think you should take a look at Lords of Olympus; see how there's a lot of conflict that can happen between gods, it can be even in the same pantheon.

RPGPundit

I might when I have some cash to fork over. I'd love some of your insights as well, as both a theologian and a man of the occult - I've started a thread for all inspirations possible, after all.

Well, have you got specific questions?