Quote from: Chris24601;1101493It does not however regard it as a sin to refuse to be murdered (in fact self defense and defense of others is regarded as heroic). Indeed, the entire point of the sacrifice of Isaac story in the Old Testament was to refute the use of human/child sacrifice (prevalent in the surrounding cultures) as something wholey unacceptable to God.

Jesus took it one step further saying "I, God, am going to die in your place for your sins. I am the Final Sacrifice, once and for all." The entire point of Christianity is that God made the ultimate sacrifice for us and doesn't need any sacrifice from us. All He asked for was that we actually treat each other with love.

Seriously, you can't get much more antithetical to the Aztecs system of morality/cosmology than Christianity.

Actually the Jews practiced human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism for a long time. Remember the part about giving your first born in sacrifice to the temple? Remember what they did with all the livestock sacrifices? Remember the prohibition of taking from the holocaust and even dipping your bread in the blood of it because it's for the priest?

Of course back then they didn't call themselves Jews, and were polytheists.

As for Christian morality, the vicarious forgiving of grievances by someone else but the wronged? You can't forgive someone in my name, and if you want a moral system then you need to include reparations towards the wronged by the offender.

Back to RPGs tough.

You could also include all the cannibalism and human sacrifice as it being imposed by the ruling class of priests by superstition and parlor tricks. Or, if the gods are real then you need no other justification, the Aztec gods were really demons and demanded ritual human sacrifice and cannibalism in exchange for their protection.

I seem to remember a discussion right here in this forum about blood magic and how to use it. What's different from that in the Maya/Aztec case?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101497I seem to remember a discussion right here in this forum about blood magic and how to use it. What's different from that in the Maya/Aztec case?

Ah, blood magic - now we are in my wheel house.

Your life, your soul for the Phoenix.

Quote from: Shasarak;1101503Ah, blood magic - now we are in my wheel house.

Your life, your soul for the Phoenix.

Well not exactly, more like for Tezcatlipoca, but yes, it was blood magic, a ritual to have good harvests and to prevent the end of the sun.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101507Well not exactly, more like for Tezcatlipoca, but yes, it was blood magic, a ritual to have good harvests and to prevent the end of the sun.

My quote is in reference to the Blood Speakers in L5R.  I think that they work because there is no real life people to be offended when Bloodspeakers murder people for their blood and then raise them as undead.

Quote from: Shasarak;1101510My quote is in reference to the Blood Speakers in L5R.  I think that they work because there is no real life people to be offended when Bloodspeakers murder people for their blood and then raise them as undead.

When people tell me That's offensive! I tell them so?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101513When people tell me That's offensive! I tell them so?

I feel like I am having three different conversations.

But, Bloodspeakers are great!  More blood magic!

Quote from: Shasarak;1101495I am saying that voluntary human sacrifice is not the same as murder.

There are degrees of "voluntary". In principle, Hindu widows voluntarily threw themselves on their deceased husband's funeral pyre. In practice, once compelling them to do so was outlawed by the British, extraordinarily few did so. This suggests that it was perhaps not as voluntary as its advocates claimed.

Of course, most societies which had human sacrifice also had child sacrifice. Would you acknowledge a moral difference between an adult consenting to be killed and a 4yo child? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-29/peru-child-sacrifice/11459208

In this as in so many other things, we see that when confronted by the unpleasant details of reality, moral relativism crumples and tears like a used dim sim bag in a gutter on a rainy day.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1101477How would you do a RPG where the "good guys" were doing the ritual sacrifices?

To the Mayan/Aztec hero, the gods need the blood and without the gods, our nation (and perhaps the world) falls into oblivion.

Especially in a fantasy RPG where the gods are literally present, demanding sacrifice in exchange for crops.

That's the kind of stuff I like in grim Swords & Sorcery settings!

The Aztec expansion for Mecha! was that. The gods really did need the sacrifices and every mech, vehicle and weapon was powered by a god the other gods sacrificed as the essentially broadcast power source. Without the sacrifices the gods weaken and eventually the mechs and ships would lose power and the world overrun by any number of aliens the aztec gods were warring with and training the people to eventually throw at.

It is a wargame setting. But a well thought out one.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101492Wait a minute, where exactly does it say you should let the priest kill you to please God?

er... off topic... but there is that segment on the OT where a priest is asked by god to sacrifice his own kid. Different angle. But close enough.

Back on topic.

We have been over this ground before from various directions and this latest movement is nothing new at this point. Insane people making their insane proclamations. And the uninformed, the dishonest, the insane and the mentally stunted believing it because why the fuck not?

And again. This is not limited to RPGs. It is creeping into board games and video games.

At this point if you see one of these nutcases making some pronouncement against something, odds are its crept into other venues allready, or soon will.

Over on BGG the current new virtue signal fad is to declare how horrible and wrong "damsels in distress" is and how no one should ever have that in a game or RPG ever again because its bad and wrong.

God only knows what nuttery it will be next week or the week after that.

Quote from: Omega;1101549er... off topic... but there is that segment on the OT where a priest is asked by god to sacrifice his own kid. Different angle. But close enough.

Except that's a bit like saying the "This is your brain on drugs" ads with a frying egg were Pro-Drug Use.

The entire point of that sequence (written down during the Babylonian captivity with much of Genesis being less literal "this happened" and more "this conveys a truth of our faith.") was that human sacrifice is NOT what God wants us to do. Have faith to trust that God would follow through on his promises (God had promised Abraham that he would have descendants that numbered as the starts through the son we was being asked to sacrifice)... yes. But, you don't actually have to sacrifice anyone for God.

Basically the book of Genesis is a whole brochure on "why we're not like our neighbors." The Babylonian creation myth involved creation over six ages where man is meant to be a slave to the gods (and thereby to the to king and priests who represent the gods). Genesis counters with God created the world in six days and created man out of love to be his children. Other religions said sacrificing kids to the gods is necessary, Genesis counters with "our God doesn't make you sacrifice your kids." Even the "Eye for an Eye" code of justice codified in the Old Testament was a step down from many of the local cultures where disproportionate retribution was the norm.

So no, it doesn't say you should let the priest kill you to please God. Its saying the opposite.

Quote from: Omega;1101549er... off topic... but there is that segment on the OT where a priest is asked by god to sacrifice his own kid. Different angle. But close enough.

Back on topic.

We have been over this ground before from various directions and this latest movement is nothing new at this point. Insane people making their insane proclamations. And the uninformed, the dishonest, the insane and the mentally stunted believing it because why the fuck not?

And again. This is not limited to RPGs. It is creeping into board games and video games.

At this point if you see one of these nutcases making some pronouncement against something, odds are its crept into other venues allready, or soon will.

Over on BGG the current new virtue signal fad is to declare how horrible and wrong "damsels in distress" is and how no one should ever have that in a game or RPG ever again because its bad and wrong.

God only knows what nuttery it will be next week or the week after that.

That gave me the idea for a title for an RPG, think it would give it's author/publisher free publicity in the form of Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

Quote from: Omega;1101548The Aztec expansion for Mecha! was that. The gods really did need the sacrifices and every mech, vehicle and weapon was powered by a god the other gods sacrificed as the essentially broadcast power source. Without the sacrifices the gods weaken and eventually the mechs and ships would lose power and the world overrun by any number of aliens the aztec gods were warring with and training the people to eventually throw at.

Awesome!!!

Unfortunately, the company looks dead.
http://www.flagshipgames.com/index.html

Here's a wiki about the game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecha!

Goddammit, I think we need to "re-colonize" D&D

Nowadays, I see terms like "problematic" to be a selling point, kind of like the Parental Advisory sticker on a rock album

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1101711Goddammit, I think we need to "re-colonize" D&D

Nowadays, I see terms like "problematic" to be a selling point, kind of like the Parental Advisory sticker on a rock album

Doc Sammy's muse leading the People back to the Promised Land of RPGing.

Quote from: S'mon;1101716

Doc Sammy's muse leading the People back to the Promised Land of RPGing.

The Manifest Destiny of TTRPGs dies hard....