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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: ArrozConLeche on August 19, 2019, 01:39:11 PM

Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: ArrozConLeche on August 19, 2019, 01:39:11 PM
Sorry, but if you have time to worry about and analyze this "problem", you're not only an idiot, but you're privileged as fuck.

Enjoy the laugh!

https://old.reddit.com/r/mattcolville/comments/cld48j/decolonizing_dd_is_your_game_problematic/

Quote
So the most recent episode of the fantastic podcast Behold Her was a very interesting conversation about decolonizing D&D. For those who may not know, "decolonizing" is the process of removing of certain racially/culturally insensitive tropes and ideologies from your content. While not necessarily malicious, there are definitely aspects of Western Fantasy that are remnants of the very ingrained "white/first world" superiority that our culture operated on for centuries. While there are a couple subtopics within "decolonizing" I'd like to talk about, the first and foremost is that the idea of purely evil races is inherently problematic.

 
Here's the first sentence from the description of Orcs in the Monster Manual:

Quote
Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks.

 

Oof, well right off the bat "savage" was a word commonly used to describe non-white cultures. You need only to crack open an Edgar Rice Burroughs story or watch a John Wayne movie to see that. "Stooped postures" and "low foreheads" are evocative of primates/neanderthals, which were the same features applied to black people when it was considered "scientific fact" that they were "less evolved" than white people.

 

Here's the second sentence in the Goblin section from the Monster Manual:
Quote

"Individually weak, goblins gather in large- sometimes overwhelming- numbers. They crave power and regularly abuse whatever authority they obtain."


This terrifying sentiment is so common among white supremacists that in the 60s some black political groups actually opposed birth control and abortion for fear it would lead to black genocide.

 

I know what you're thinking: "but that's the monster manual, it's written to play up how scary they are." Okay, well let's look at the Half-Elf in the Player's Handbook for a pretty positive example:

Quote
"Walking in two worlds but truly belonging to neither, half-elves combine what some say are the best qualities of their elf and human parents: human curiosity, inventiveness, and ambition tempered by the refined senses, love of nature, and artistic tastes of the elves…' 'Many half-elves, unable to fit into either society, choose lives of solitary wandering or join with other misfits and outcasts in the adventuring life."


 

Now I'm as white as wonder-bread, but to me that seems like a pretty nuanced and accurate representation of what it's like to be of mixed race. Let's compare this to the entry for the Half-Orc though:

Quote
"Some half-ogres rise to become proud chiefs of orc tribes, their human blood giving them an edge over their full-blooded orc rivaIs. Some venture into the world to prove their worth among humans and other more civilized races. Many of these become adventurers, achieving greatness for their mighty deeds and notoriety for their barbaric customs and savage fury."


 

Huh… so your choices as a half-orc are to use your "superior blood" to take over other orcs or become famous for not just your adventures, but your "barbaric customs and savage fury." Not only is this a pretty problematic representation for mixed-race people, but it's distinctly less nuanced. One might even argue it's bad writing.

 

Now as with all criticism of fiction, we must account for the inevitable response of "but they justify it in the backstory." In the Monster Manual, it's explained that the Orcs are the creation of the god Gruumsh who could not find a domain of his own and so created orcs to take from and destroy other races. The Yuan-Ti are humans transformed into snake people (or sneople) because they were fanatical about being as close to their serpent gods as possible. Their philosophy that there is virtue in detachment from emotion and of clear, focused thought leads them to be pragmatic and "manipulative." Every Yuan-Ti is a fanatic and is committed to the process of attaining power, under the belief that a sufficiently strong individual can devour and replace one of the gods. Goblinoids, Kobolds, Lizardfolk, and Kenku don't receive such explanations, but it doesn't matter! Most players won't ever learn this backstory, so the perception matters just as much as the lore and the perception is that they're "savages."

 

Now D&D has perfectly legitimate purely chaotic and evil monsters/races, such as Fiends, Fey, Beholders, Mindflayers, Ogres, Troglodytes, and all flavors of Undead. The difference is that these creatures either don't have a society and if they do, it's distinctly more alien (like with the Mindflayers). So, it's not like we need these other races, which are playable characters via mixed races or expansion rules, treated in such a simplistic way.

 

Now that's not to say you can't have orcs and goblins be evil in your campaign/setting, but you should ask yourself the question "Why?" Why is it that this group is more "chaotic" or "evil" than other groups? In the real world that's an incredibly complex and fascinating question, so there should be no shortage of interesting takes you can have. No matter if you decide to leave these races as they are or change their standing entirely, you should make it clear to yourself and to your players that these are generalizations. If there can be good and evil elves, so too can there be good and evil kobolds.

 

Decolonizing D&D isn't just about monster races though, it's about re-examining the history of D&D and the base assumptions players have because of that history. As Colville has cited many times, D&D is heavily influenced by sword and sorcery pulp fiction, especially the Conan series. Now for me to say that stories written between the 30s and the 70s are racist, sexist, or homophobic isn't exactly new ground, but to cover our bases I'll link to two articles (here and here) and two books for good measure (here and here).

 

Let's just say even a cursory look at D&D's history will reveal some... cultural insensitivity. Any mainstream D&D campaign setting has to contend with the fact that sometimes DMs and Players want to play in a non-Western setting, that they want to be Samurai or Arabian Knights. Obviously TSR/WotC wasn't going to create a dozen discrete settings, so we ended up with the current geography of the Forgotten Realms. While pretty much all the action happens on the continent of Faerûn, and specifically the European-styled "Western Faerûn," in previous editions there were also the continents of Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and Maztica. Zakhara is the home of the Al-Qadim campaign setting, a very Hollywood version of "Arabic cultures." Kara-Tur is the fantasy analogue of medieval Eastern Asian, established by the classically named "Oriental Adventures." Maztica, the most subtly named of all of them, is a vaguely Aztec-based region.

 

Nowadays you don't have to leave Faerûn, as now these cultures have their own regions adjacent to the Western Faerûn. The Chultan Peninsula is vaguely afro-cultural, Calimsham is our new Ottoman/Arabic analogue, and Mulhorand is distinctly inspired by ancient Egypt. It's kinda surprising that even in 5e we still have these attempts at non-european environments done with such broad brushstrokes. Tomb of Annihilation got a lot of heat for its very generic incorporation of African cultures. Representation, while well-meaning, is just stereotyping without authenticity and nuance.

 

This is a lot less explicit these days, but there's a general air of "conquest" or "white savior complex" to adventures that take place outside of the Sword Coast. Since most likely your character is going to be from Western Faerun and you'll be traveling to these lands, like in Tomb of Annihilation, your character is positioned as this superior hero who saves these helpless people or, even worse, overthrows an evil ruler (thus saving them from themselves). You could argue this isn't inherently problematic, but when coupled with the scenario of European-based characters entering a distinctly non-European culture, it plays into long-standing narratives that have depicted non-white cultures as lesser-than.

 

To finish off in a way that's specifically relevant to this subreddit, I want to say that I love Strongholds & Followers. I think Colville's use of the mechanics in his games are appropriately nuanced and political, but I also worry that the very concept plays into a "conquest" narrative that could reveal itself in other peoples games. Establishing a stronghold to "tame the wilderness" or to declare a war on another nation becomes distinctly more problematic when that wilderness is already occupied by orcs/goblins or when that nation is a mono-racial faction. Perhaps it's just me, but that feels eerily similar to literal colonization or "frontier-taming" (ala the Wild West).

 

Now we all like killing monsters and letting loose, but I think most campaigns would benefit from some examination and interrogation of who it is you're killing and why that's justified. I'm not asking for WotC to re-release the Monster Manual and I'm not demanding people stop fighting orcs, I'm just looking to have a conversation about this topic and hopefully inspire some critical thinking.

 

… so yeah. Thoughts?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2019, 01:55:45 PM
Quote
Now we all like killing monsters and letting loose, but I think most campaigns would benefit from some examination and interrogation of who it is you're killing and why that's justified. I'm not asking for WotC to re-release the Monster Manual and I'm not demanding people stop fighting orcs, I'm just looking to have a conversation about this topic and hopefully inspire some critical thinking.

… so yeah. Thoughts?


My thoughts are that the concept of decolonization is a way for white progressive activists to control and monopolize conversation. This reddit post is a great example of that.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Razor 007 on August 19, 2019, 01:59:12 PM
Oh my.....
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 19, 2019, 02:27:08 PM
I think games are more interesting when every monster has at least the slightest possible chance of being redeemed.  

That doesn't mean I don't slaughter my share of well-meaning people that happen to be on the wrong side of my adventure (there was a time where we ended up slaughtering most of the city guard in the name of the 'greater good'), but it doesn't mean that I don't sometimes like to play at solving more complex social problems and building empires.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Brendan on August 19, 2019, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100059
My thoughts are that the concept of decolonization is a way for white progressive activists to control and monopolize conversation. This reddit post is a great example of that.

Zing!
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Brendan on August 19, 2019, 02:51:59 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100068
I think games are more interesting when every monster has at least the slightest possible chance of being redeemed.  

Hmm.  I have nothing against this per se, but I think the idea of an irredeemable monster type is more threatening and uncomfortable to modern "current year" sensibilities, especially if that monster isn't pretty, civilized, or likeable.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Brad on August 19, 2019, 02:53:56 PM
Quote from: Brendan;1100077
Hmm.  I have nothing against this per se, but I think the idea of an irredeemable monster type is more threatening and uncomfortable to modern "current year" sensibilities, especially if that monster isn't pretty, civilized, or likeable.

Because it says True Evil is a thing, and that undermines postmodern idealism. Can't have that.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Alexander Kalinowski on August 19, 2019, 02:57:01 PM
One day it will dawn on these liberals that the classical fantasy genre is inherently euro-centric and they will turn against it entirely. To no avail.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Melan on August 19, 2019, 03:11:14 PM
Please go away and play other games, then. Problem solved.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 03:23:23 PM
Quote
Oof, well right off the bat "savage" was a word commonly used to describe non-white cultures.

And the first to read any description of Orcs and think of real world, non-white people is the only racist.

Not gonna read their BS but do they also compare Goblins with Jews? because that's another favorite of the white progressive.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 03:27:35 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100068
I think games are more interesting when every monster has at least the slightest possible chance of being redeemed.  

That doesn't mean I don't slaughter my share of well-meaning people that happen to be on the wrong side of my adventure (there was a time where we ended up slaughtering most of the city guard in the name of the 'greater good'), but it doesn't mean that I don't sometimes like to play at solving more complex social problems and building empires.

Therefore not a monster.

In my table Orcs, Goblins and the like are Evil, there are no demi this or that, because different species can't crossbreed. Only game I ever played that has a truly grey morality is CP2013/2020, especially as I play it, where you're a poor sap trying to survive and maybe make it big and have to work withing the boundaries set by the megacorps. So you are kinda evil sometimes, kinda good sometimes, and most of the time just trying to get by.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 03:28:20 PM
Quote from: Melan;1100084
Please go away and play other games, then. Problem solved.

Exactly, we need a little gate keeping, at least in our tables.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: trechriron on August 19, 2019, 03:48:05 PM
I'm still waiting for the decolonized fantasy setting that replaces the D&D default setting that proves once and for all it's the best. People have tried. There are a handful of non-traditional settings out there. None of them really took off though. They remain less popular compared to D&D. Is that because everyone is a horrible racist who prefers colonized racist tropes? Probably not. I'm guessing that most people who play D&D are in fact not racists and don't approach their games with the stark "white adventurers vs. minority monsters" dichotomy front and center.

With all the actual racism and sexism in our society why do we need to seek out make-believe racist ephera in every nook and cranny of our existence?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 19, 2019, 03:53:30 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100091
Exactly, we need a little gate keeping, at least in our tables.

You can choose who you invite to game with, but it's not your responsibility to choose who does or does not participate in the hobby.  If you don't want to have discussions with them, nobody is forcing you to.  

The quoted post from the reddit is asking to examine an aspect of the game - who is 'kill on sight' and what that means for the game.  Maybe there's a better way; maybe thinking about it is worthwhile.  

One valid criticism of a lot of 'evil' is that they don't do anything that the good guys don't do; there is team ugly and team pretty, and basically they treat each other the same if they're in charge.  When I want my players to know who the bad guy is, I want him to do something deplorable.  In a TV show, you let the bad guy kick a puppy (or kill John Wick's dog) so it's clear that he is a bad guy and nobody has to feel guilty about taking him out.  From my perspective, that's the LEAST you can do in your games.  If the bad guys do bad things, you don't have to ever worry about whether you're the bad guy because you're kicking down his door and taking all his booty.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 04:05:26 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100099
You can choose who you invite to game with, but it's not your responsibility to choose who does or does not participate in the hobby.  If you don't want to have discussions with them, nobody is forcing you to.  

The quoted post from the reddit is asking to examine an aspect of the game - who is 'kill on sight' and what that means for the game.  Maybe there's a better way; maybe thinking about it is worthwhile.  

One valid criticism of a lot of 'evil' is that they don't do anything that the good guys don't do; there is team ugly and team pretty, and basically they treat each other the same if they're in charge.  When I want my players to know who the bad guy is, I want him to do something deplorable.  In a TV show, you let the bad guy kick a puppy (or kill John Wick's dog) so it's clear that he is a bad guy and nobody has to feel guilty about taking him out.  From my perspective, that's the LEAST you can do in your games.  If the bad guys do bad things, you don't have to ever worry about whether you're the bad guy because you're kicking down his door and taking all his booty.

Nice strawman you got there, I clearly said in our tables, and anybody who thinks they can dictate who can or can't play RPGs is a moron and usually a leftist.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Omega on August 19, 2019, 04:20:22 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100068
I think games are more interesting when every monster has at least the slightest possible chance of being redeemed.  

That doesn't mean I don't slaughter my share of well-meaning people that happen to be on the wrong side of my adventure (there was a time where we ended up slaughtering most of the city guard in the name of the 'greater good'), but it doesn't mean that I don't sometimes like to play at solving more complex social problems and building empires.


BX D&D is still my go to and exemplar of this. Anything, Law, Neutral, or Chaos could be friendly or hostile. You never knew and had to approach each encounter on its own. The Spectre might be a travelling merchant. The gold dragon might be exterminating villages for fun and profit. Those lizardmen might help you if you approach them right. And so on.

That article is made of distilled stupid.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 19, 2019, 04:24:33 PM
White liberals are the greatest danger to non-white Americans.

And probably not just Americans either.

If any of you haven't played RPGs with "non-white people", this is how it goes....just like your other games. I've gamed with lots and lots of people who don't look like me, but hot damn, they almost all gamed just like me. They wanted to play heroes (or anti-heroes) who kicked evil monster ass and took their kewl stuff. They wanted to escape the bullshit of real life for a few hours, eat pizza and roll dice to enjoy their foray into imaginary lands.

Fuck these SJW assholes and their bullshit.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Mankcam on August 19, 2019, 04:30:03 PM
How did all this politically correct crap get into something as non-political as fantasy rpgs?

I mean, this is the same kind of hair-splitting straight-jacketing that we put up with in our professional lives. It's a pity that it's found its way to us in the rpg scene in the last few years

It is almost as ridiculous as the 'satanic panic' hysteria in the '80s, yet far more restricting.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Pat on August 19, 2019, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100099
The quoted post from the reddit is asking to examine an aspect of the game - who is 'kill on sight' and what that means for the game.  Maybe there's a better way; maybe thinking about it is worthwhile.  

That's not the main thrust of the post, though. It's almost entirely a list of claims that fantasy races are a stand-in for real life racism. If it was really about rejecting the use of Us/Them tagging to indicate what's okay to kill and what's not, then why say it's okay to murderspreekill troglodytes and mind flayers? There's no reason trogs have to be Evil with a capital E, after all they're not infused with with the essence of evil or have an essential part of their nature that's abhorrent. And while illithids do have an inherently abhorrent method of eating, even if we assume they must slurp down brains to survive we don't have to treat them as a monolithic evil. After all vampires in many myths are just as bad, and are often portrayed sympathetically. Mind flayers might be tormented, full of justifications and rationalizations, or it might just be what they do without any reflection or self-analysis. If the article was really about kill on sight, it wouldn't draw that line. In fact, given that it's a long list of accusations of racism without a serious attempt to talk about solutions, that suggests the author might want to look in the mirror next time they classify stinking lizard people or vampire-adjacents who are unpretty and have an even more squeam-inducing method of feeding as examples of unremitting evil.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2019, 04:36:55 PM
Quote from: Mankcam;1100104
How did all this politically correct crap get into something as non-political as fantasy rpgs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_institutions
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Toadmaster on August 19, 2019, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100099
You can choose who you invite to game with, but it's not your responsibility to choose who does or does not participate in the hobby.  If you don't want to have discussions with them, nobody is forcing you to.  

The quoted post from the reddit is asking to examine an aspect of the game - who is 'kill on sight' and what that means for the game.  Maybe there's a better way; maybe thinking about it is worthwhile.  

One valid criticism of a lot of 'evil' is that they don't do anything that the good guys don't do; there is team ugly and team pretty, and basically they treat each other the same if they're in charge.  When I want my players to know who the bad guy is, I want him to do something deplorable.  In a TV show, you let the bad guy kick a puppy (or kill John Wick's dog) so it's clear that he is a bad guy and nobody has to feel guilty about taking him out.  From my perspective, that's the LEAST you can do in your games.  If the bad guys do bad things, you don't have to ever worry about whether you're the bad guy because you're kicking down his door and taking all his booty.


The problem is when it goes from examining the mind set and personal drivers of the "kill on sight" monsters, and assuming that they are stand ins for (choose you favorite "oppressed" group).

In WW2 the Japanese made themselves kill on sight "monsters" because that is how they generally responded to their enemies. There was little quarter asked or given on either side. If you were an American, British or Chinese soldier, a Japanese soldier and their culture may very well appear to have zero redeeming value. You saw much of the same between the Germans and Soviets on the Eastern front. By contrast the Commonwealth, USA, Italians and Germans had a rather more civilized conflict, they had centuries of warfare which made WW2 just another little misunderstanding among friends.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 19, 2019, 04:47:22 PM
So if I understand this correctly then Orcs are representative of Blacks, Goblins are representative of Blacks, Drow are of course representative of Blacks and I can only assume that if I include white Nazis in my game then they must also be representative of Blacks.

It looks like no matter how far we dig down into the narrative it is Black oppression all the way down.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 04:57:10 PM
Quote from: Mankcam;1100104
How did all this politically correct crap get into something as non-political as fantasy rpgs?

I mean, this is the same kind of hair-splitting straight-jacketing that we put up with in our professional lives. It's a pity that it's found its way to us in the rpg scene in the last few years

It is almost as ridiculous as the 'satanic panic' hysteria in the '80s, yet far more restricting.


The geek, gamer, etc identities transcend race, sex, sexual orientation, etc. Just like nationalism does, therefore they must be eradicated. Also they can't create, only corrupt, and they know politics is downstream of culture, they need to control or, failing that, destroy anything that can't be used as a pamphlet for their cult's dogma.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jeff37923 on August 19, 2019, 05:28:49 PM
Just as an aside, about 3/4ths of the John Wayne westerns that do have Indians in them, show John Wayne's character as respectful of their culture and warning others that not being respectful of their culture and agreements will cause some danger. I doubt that the reddit author has ever seen a John Wayne western because they would find them too problematic to watch.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 19, 2019, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100059
My thoughts are that the concept of decolonization is a way for white progressive activists to control and monopolize conversation. This reddit post is a great example of that.


It's all about Colonising people's thought-space until there's no room for free thought.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: S'mon;1100120
It's all about Colonising people's thought-space until there's no room for free thought.

How can you explain that African witch doctors could throw lightning from their fingers before they were colonized huh!?

Checkmate shitlords!

Edited to add video.

Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jeff37923 on August 19, 2019, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100099
You can choose who you invite to game with, but it's not your responsibility to choose who does or does not participate in the hobby.  If you don't want to have discussions with them, nobody is forcing you to.  


You need to tell that to Mike Mearls and WotC.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 19, 2019, 07:22:26 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100123
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i80qaETtw8


I (almost) feel bad for the idiot girl in that video. She proclaims she wants to get rid of science, but then jumps on her smart phone the next moment. She's been pumped so full of SJW propaganda - PROBABLY BY HER TEACHERS - that she can't see reality in her own hands. Sad to see Capetown suffering the SJW intrusion because its the last thing South Africa needs.

But it was good to hear the other students in the room laughing at her.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 07:24:24 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1100148
I (almost) feel bad for the idiot girl in that video. She proclaims she wants to get rid of science, but then jumps on her smart phone the next moment. She's been pumped so full of SJW propaganda - PROBABLY BY HER TEACHERS - that she can't see reality in her own hands. Sad to see Capetown suffering the SJW intrusion because its the last thing South Africa needs.

But it was good to hear the other students in the room laughing at her.

But that's white science! it's racist from the word go! also I want witch doctors who can command the Lightning!
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: SavageSchemer on August 19, 2019, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100150
But that's white science! it's racist from the word go! also I want witch doctors who can command the Lightning!

We're talking about the same people who proudly proclaim that Mathematics is racist (https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/10/math-racist-university-illinois-professor/). With a straight face! So, nothing surprises me anymore. "Educate" (indoctrinate) a fool and all you make is a dangerous fool.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 19, 2019, 09:32:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100150
also I want witch doctors who can command the Lightning!

Check out Spears of the Dawn RPG by Kevin Crawford!
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110293/Spears-of-the-Dawn
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Aglondir on August 19, 2019, 10:23:41 PM
Decolonialization of the Ranger?

Quote from: 3E
Favored Enemy (Ex)

At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2.

If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.



Quote from: 5E
Favored Enemy

Beginning at 1st level, you have significant experience studying, tracking, hunting, and even talking to a certain type of enemy. Choose a type of favored enemy: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.

You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your favored enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them. When you gain this feature, you also learn one language of your choice that is spoken by your favored enemies, if they speak one at all. You choose on additional favored enemy as well as an associated language, at 6th and 14th level. As you gain levels, your choices should reflect the types of monsters you have encountered on your adventures.


(emphasis mine).

If we buy into the colonialism theory, the 3E Ranger looks like a genocidal maniac, but the 5E Ranger is just a racist. It depends on which enemy you chose, and which enemies are considered protected classes. Probably the bolded ones-- I doubt elementals or dragons have any colonial baggage. Interesting that the combat bonus didn't make it from 3E to 5E. Can someone chime in on what the 4E Ranger does? I don't have those books.

I'm calling it now: Favored Enemy will not make it into 6E.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on August 19, 2019, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100089
Not gonna read their BS but do they also compare Goblins with Jews? because that's another favorite of the white progressive.


Wait... what? I don't even see how goblins fit with any negative stereotypes of Jews. Goblins aren't generally thought of as accountants, retail clothing entrepreneurs, and doctors. :P
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Aglondir on August 19, 2019, 10:49:06 PM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1100184
Wait... what? I don't even see how goblins fit with any negative stereotypes of Jews. Goblins aren't generally thought of as accountants, retail clothing entrepreneurs, and doctors. :P


Harry Potter's Goblins, but it's been debunked.

Quote
The goblins, especially as depicted in the movies, are universally hooked nosed, short, unattractive, and green. …Professor Binns' soporific History of Magic lectures tell tales of centuries of goblin oppression, segregation, mistrust, bad relations, exclusion, and revolts. Sound like any European ethnic minority you know? That's right, Rowlings' depiction of goblins reflects the type of stereotypes that are more fitting for Russia in the late 19th century or a second rate Gazan newspaper.


https://www.quora.com/Are-the-goblins-in-Harry-Potter-an-antisemitic-reference-to-Jews
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 10:49:57 PM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1100184
Wait... what? I don't even see how goblins fit with any negative stereotypes of Jews. Goblins aren't generally thought of as accountants, retail clothing entrepreneurs, and doctors. :P

Beats me, but then again I'm not a white progressive anti-racist. I guess it's kinda with scientology, you have to be in the cult and your tethan levels have to be just right before you start to see the conections.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 10:51:51 PM
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1100161
We're talking about the same people who proudly proclaim that Mathematics is racist (https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/10/math-racist-university-illinois-professor/). With a straight face! So, nothing surprises me anymore. "Educate" (indoctrinate) a fool and all you make is a dangerous fool.


Yeah, had a math teacher in college spouting that BS. But luckily for me she didn't went all crazy when I pushed back.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Mankcam on August 19, 2019, 11:04:45 PM
It's kinda unnerving how taking the middle ground in social viewpoints is getting harder to do with this brewing global shitstorm between the Far Right and the Ultra Left.

You would think a hobby like this would be almost immune like it used to be, but it is starting to become a major platform for both sides.

I am fortunate to have my own gaming group which is isolated from all this.
I used to want to be more part of the wider rpg hobby, but I'm starting to think I dodged a bullet by not jumping into the organised play/convention scene

They must be like walking on coals now, with 'X' cards and such. Soon all the loose GMs won't be running convention play, and it will just be a straight jacket affair in terms of creativity
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Omega on August 19, 2019, 11:10:31 PM
Quote from: Aglondir;1100181
I doubt elementals or dragons have any colonial baggage.

Interesting that the combat bonus didn't make it from 3E to 5E. Can someone chime in on what the 4E Ranger does? I don't have those books.

I'm calling it now: Favored Enemy will not make it into 6E.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1100184
Wait... what? I don't even see how goblins fit with any negative stereotypes of Jews. Goblins aren't generally thought of as accountants, retail clothing entrepreneurs, and doctors. :P

1a: Give them time. I am sure eventually they will declare that fire elementals represent native americans, eatth is african, and so on ad insanium.
1b: Not really. Ranger can designate a target as 'quarry' and gain a bonus to hit them. But it is situational rather than racial. And one of the class paths can designate one of two types of beasts as special quarry.
1c: Its shifted so much over the editions even if it were downplayed in a new edition, that would not necessarily signify anything at this point.

2: You have to understand that these maniacs can and will see racism in literally anything. And can change on a dime what they believe is and isnt to suit their agenda.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 19, 2019, 11:11:37 PM
Quote from: Aglondir;1100181
If we buy into the colonialism theory


...we would obviously need to put down the bong!!!

BTW, I agree that "Favored Enemy" is going to become "problematic"
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2019, 11:14:47 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1100196
...we would obviously need to put down the bong!!!

BTW, I agree that "Favored Enemy" is going to become "problematic"

You must remember that one of the 9 principles is non-violent play. So if they get their way D&D will be played with all PCs and NPCs (which will be renamed) sitting at a table and discussing how to decolonize the planes.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Toadmaster on August 19, 2019, 11:58:50 PM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1100184
Wait... what? I don't even see how goblins fit with any negative stereotypes of Jews. Goblins aren't generally thought of as accountants, retail clothing entrepreneurs, and doctors. :P


D&D and Tolkien goblins don't but goblins in some myth and fiction are fey folk (fairies, brownies,sprites, gnomes) and these more closely resemble ugly, meaner D&D gnomes with a love for treasure and sometimes mechanical devices. they also may or may not have great crafting skill.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Alexander Kalinowski on August 20, 2019, 01:44:27 AM
Quote from: Mankcam;1100104
How did all this politically correct crap get into something as non-political as fantasy rpgs?


There's a word for it: totalitarianism. It always creeps up when parts of society have a vision for a brighter future and are willing to throw everything and everyone else under the bus for it
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 20, 2019, 01:57:10 AM
How about you guys stop sharing this bollocks? Flames need air.

Smother the flames with ignoring the nonsense. Your time is better spent buying snacks and rolling up random dungeons and star systems.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: BarefootGaijin on August 20, 2019, 02:05:30 AM
Quote from: Mankcam;1100104
How did all this politically correct crap get into something as non-political as fantasy rpgs?

I mean, this is the same kind of hair-splitting straight-jacketing that we put up with in our professional lives. It's a pity that it's found its way to us in the rpg scene in the last few years

It is almost as ridiculous as the 'satanic panic' hysteria in the '80s, yet far more restricting.


Haven't read the rest of the thread yet but :
A) RPGs = low hanging fruit/easy target possibly,
B) Are these people STILL going on about this shit? Fuck. Like OP said, if you're worried about "muh fantasy races" you really have no problems, and need to take that silver spoon out of your mouth before you choke on it. Fucking white savior complex.

On second thoughts, we're gonna need a bigger spoon....
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Razor 007 on August 20, 2019, 02:11:56 AM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1100215
How about you guys stop sharing this bollocks? Flames need air.

Smother the flames with ignoring the nonsense. Your time is better spent buying snacks and rolling up random dungeons and star systems.


Better spent indeed
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Scrivener of Doom on August 20, 2019, 04:01:35 AM
I've lived 20+ years in Asia.

I firmly believe that western colonisation was, on balance, a positive force.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Jaeger on August 20, 2019, 04:26:42 AM
Quote from: Mankcam;1100104
It is almost as ridiculous as the 'satanic panic' hysteria in the '80s, yet far more restricting.

The so-called "satanic panic" was a toothless fart into a strong breeze compared to what the SJW's are doing.

The SJW's already had more impact, have exerted more influence and control over over the social mores of the mainstream RPG hobby than all of the fraud, huckster, peacock-preacher's involved in the "satanic-panic" combined.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: tenbones on August 20, 2019, 11:19:28 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1100196
...we would obviously need to put down the bong!!!


Even in my wildest bong-induced excesses - I've never put out an idea dumber than Intsectionalism. Or Social Justice as a concept.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Zalman on August 20, 2019, 11:25:10 AM
It's amazing to me that we spend so much energy discussing the merits of these arguments trying to demonstrate that RPGs are bigoted, when the the very premise upon which those arguments are proposed is a glaring logical fallacy.

"Intelligence" is sometimes measured by racist IQ tests.
RPGs use "Intelligence".
Therefore: RPGs are racist.

Some author used the word "Savages" to describe savages who happen to be Black.
RPGs use the word "Savages".
Therefore: RPGs think Black people are Savages.

Some apples are red.
Cardinals are red.
Therefore: cardinals are apples.

The argument as a whole is utterly absurd and outright fallacious, regardless of the truth of falsity of the parts.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Brad on August 20, 2019, 11:29:28 AM
Quote from: Zalman;1100236
It's amazing to me that we spend so much energy discussing the merits of these arguments trying to demonstrate that RPGs are bigoted, when the the very premise upon which those arguments are proposed is a glaring logical fallacy.

I agree; they're based on a faulty premise and not made in good faith. Just a way to push some bullshit agenda.

So, instead of trying to make an argument, just say it's stupid and move on. Why would you engage anyone whatsoever who was insisting 2+4=5 beyond calling them an idiot? It's the same thing.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Brendan on August 20, 2019, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: Zalman;1100236
It's amazing to me that we spend so much energy discussing the merits of these arguments trying to demonstrate that RPGs are bigoted, when the the very premise upon which those arguments are proposed is a glaring logical fallacy...

Some apples are red.
Cardinals are red.
Therefore: cardinals are apples.

The argument as a whole is utterly absurd and outright fallacious, regardless of the truth of falsity of the parts.

Yes, but logic is a dominance tool of the western patriarchy.  I wish I were kidding.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Brad on August 20, 2019, 11:56:58 AM
Quote from: Brendan;1100241
Yes, but logic is a dominance tool of the western patriarchy.  I wish I were kidding.


(https://i.imgur.com/TASQhxU.jpg)
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 20, 2019, 12:00:37 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1100215
How about you guys stop sharing this bollocks? Flames need air.

Smother the flames with ignoring the nonsense. Your time is better spent buying snacks and rolling up random dungeons and star systems.

Because that worked so well in the past. [/s]
This PC/Callout/regressive culture gets stronger when people ignore it. What stops it is simply when somebody finally tells them "No".
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 20, 2019, 12:02:13 PM
Quote from: Jaeger;1100223
The so-called "satanic panic" was a toothless fart into a strong breeze compared to what the SJW's are doing.

The SJW's already had more impact, have exerted more influence and control over over the social mores of the mainstream RPG hobby than all of the fraud, huckster, peacock-preacher's involved in the "satanic-panic" combined.


The major difference is that the Satanic Panic was an outside threat. Social Justice's tactics is to attack from within.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Alderaan Crumbs on August 20, 2019, 12:20:22 PM
Quote from: Brendan;1100241
Yes, but logic is a dominance tool of the western patriarchy.  I wish I were kidding.


We are all dumber for having read what you posted. I wish I were kidding.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100248
Because that worked so well in the past. [/s]
This PC/Callout/regressive culture gets stronger when people ignore it. What stops it is simply when somebody finally tells them "No".


They don’t go away by ignoring them, they need to be shown for the insidious and ruinous tyrants they are.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 20, 2019, 12:21:38 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100248
Because that worked so well in the past. [/s]
This PC/Callout/regressive culture gets stronger when people ignore it. What stops it is simply when somebody finally tells them "No".

What!? You mean to tell me the push to teach creationism in schools wasn't stopped by just ignoring it's proponents? I can't even.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Brendan on August 20, 2019, 12:25:03 PM
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1100253
We are all dumber for having read what you posted. I wish I were kidding.


Obviously I don't believe that.  I was making a point.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: dungeon crawler on August 20, 2019, 01:42:17 PM
Dear SJW's read this important announcement from the Surgeon Field Marshall. It will save you pain and suffering. Warning the Surgeon Field Marshall has determined that SJW complaints about my gaming is hazardous to your health.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: trechriron on August 20, 2019, 06:10:23 PM
I seriously wish we would stop using SJW in the pejorative. It gives those of us who actually fight for social justice a bad rap. These people are only co-opting the term as they found a less-discerning crowd there. They are actually angry fascists using social justice, feminism and equality to gain power (and oppress/ruin their enemies). They are generally only concerned with themselves. Calling them Social Justice Warriors is somewhat of a misnomer. Just because someone runs up to you calling you "anathema" claiming to be the Pope, does not mean they are actually the Pope (or worthy of such a title). We should call them what they are. SLFs. Selfish Leftist Fascists. Selfs. It's like "Elf" but with 1000x more selfish-asshole. If that's possible.

Also, I lean left but I'm not an extremist. This kind of hand-wringing fuck-wittery is not indicative of actual liberal-minded people who are well-adjusted functioning human beings. It's an agenda to control our little corner of the hobby world. Fuck these dumbasses.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 20, 2019, 06:22:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100254
What!? You mean to tell me the push to teach creationism in schools wasn't stopped by just ignoring it's proponents? I can't even.

They weren't ignored, they were heard - by state secretaries of education, school boards, and so on. The proper response when they stood up in PTA meetings would have been to let them rabbit on for a bit, "thankyou for your opinion, now on to matters of substance," or when they presented their petitions, filed in the round filing cabinet. This is what happened in Australia and the UK with the Christians, though we have failed to do so with the CJWs and SJWs.

The US Christians were listened to. They were not ignored. And that was the problem. As then, so now.

This is what comes of treating people's beliefs with respect. Eventually whoever has the loudest beliefs gets to impose them on others. The world needs more derisive laughter and dismissive contempt. It begins with not sharing their nonsense. Your hysterical response to someone's blog with 11 readers ensures they get more attention. Lonely losers then find company. White supremacists have 8chan, SJWs have tumblr. By drawing attention to obscure nonsense you help the producers of that nonsense form communities. Though they are the ones engaging in the circle jerk, we're the ones who end up eating the soggy biscuit.

Deny the fire air. Don't fan the flames, you idiot. Let the lonely losers remain lonely, then perhaps they will in time decide to no longer be losers.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 20, 2019, 06:31:20 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1100311

The world needs more derisive laughter and dismissive contempt.


Wise words indeed!

I agree, most of the time the correct response to garbage posted online is to ignore it. Exception for when someone is under serious attack and could benefit from a show of support.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 20, 2019, 06:34:48 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1100311
They weren't ignored, they were heard - by state secretaries of education, school boards, and so on. The proper response when they stood up in PTA meetings would have been to let them rabbit on for a bit, "thankyou for your opinion, now on to matters of substance," or when they presented their petitions, filed in the round filing cabinet. This is what happened in Australia and the UK with the Christians, though we have failed to do so with the CJWs and SJWs.

The US Christians were listened to. They were not ignored. And that was the problem. As then, so now.

This is what comes of treating people's beliefs with respect. Eventually whoever has the loudest beliefs gets to impose them on others. The world needs more derisive laughter and dismissive contempt. It begins with not sharing their nonsense. Your hysterical response to someone's blog with 11 readers ensures they get more attention. Lonely losers then find company. White supremacists have 8chan, SJWs have tumblr. By drawing attention to obscure nonsense you help the producers of that nonsense form communities. Though they are the ones engaging in the circle jerk, we're the ones who end up eating the soggy biscuit.

Deny the fire air. Don't fan the flames, you idiot. Let the lonely losers remain lonely, then perhaps they will in time decide to no longer be losers.


Because the assholes have no power in the government, academia, media and corporate worlds right?

The YEC were stopped by people criticizing them, and ridiculing them. Mockery is the best weapon to this kind of fuckers.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 20, 2019, 06:36:37 PM
Quote from: trechriron;1100308
I seriously wish we would stop using SJW in the pejorative. It gives those of us who actually fight for social justice a bad rap. These people are only co-opting the term as they found a less-discerning crowd there. They are actually angry fascists using social justice, feminism and equality to gain power (and oppress/ruin their enemies). They are generally only concerned with themselves. Calling them Social Justice Warriors is somewhat of a misnomer. Just because someone runs up to you calling you "anathema" claiming to be the Pope, does not mean they are actually the Pope (or worthy of such a title). We should call them what they are. SLFs. Selfish Leftist Fascists. Selfs. It's like "Elf" but with 1000x more selfish-asshole. If that's possible.

Also, I lean left but I'm not an extremist. This kind of hand-wringing fuck-wittery is not indicative of actual liberal-minded people who are well-adjusted functioning human beings. It's an agenda to control our little corner of the hobby world. Fuck these dumbasses.


Social Justice = Racial, gender, etc "justice"

The term was coined by them, we use it to mack them because they deserve mockery, it's not like you couldn't call yourself an advocate.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 20, 2019, 06:36:46 PM
Quote from: trechriron;1100308
I seriously wish we would stop using SJW in the pejorative. It gives those of us who actually fight for social justice a bad rap.


What social justice do you fight for?

Actually this reminds me of me slagging off Human Rights Lawyers. Most Human Rights Lawyers in the UK are IMO terrible people working hard to help even more terrible people avoid their just desserts. Only I got talking to one of my students, a Nigerian Muslim 'Human Rights Lawyer'. Turns out, in Nigeria a 'Human Rights Lawyer' is not a fellow traveller for the worst kinds of terrorists and murdering scum, but rather someone who tries to stop abusive husbands beating the Hell out of their wives. Human Rights Lawyers over there don't try to undermine society, they try to make it a little better.

Made me think about what's in a name.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 20, 2019, 06:39:46 PM
Quote from: trechriron;1100308
I seriously wish we would stop using SJW in the pejorative. It gives those of us who actually fight for social justice a bad rap. These people are only co-opting the term as they found a less-discerning crowd there. They are actually angry fascists using social justice, feminism and equality to gain power (and oppress/ruin their enemies). They are generally only concerned with themselves. Calling them Social Justice Warriors is somewhat of a misnomer. Just because someone runs up to you calling you "anathema" claiming to be the Pope, does not mean they are actually the Pope (or worthy of such a title). We should call them what they are. SLFs. Selfish Leftist Fascists. Selfs. It's like "Elf" but with 1000x more selfish-asshole. If that's possible.

Also, I lean left but I'm not an extremist. This kind of hand-wringing fuck-wittery is not indicative of actual liberal-minded people who are well-adjusted functioning human beings. It's an agenda to control our little corner of the hobby world. Fuck these dumbasses.


I dislike Social Justice in the intended sense. I think adding identity politics to justice leads to the injustice and secular-religious tribalism we saw at Evergreen College, and in what we call SJWs in general.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Pat on August 20, 2019, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: S'mon;1100313
I agree, most of the time the correct response to garbage posted online is to ignore it. Exception for when someone is under serious attack and could benefit from a show of support.
By not responding, you're ceding the argument. Wrong information and wrong conclusions need to be countered, wherever they occur, either with correct data and logical conclusions, or ridicule. Look how much effect is spent on redefining the language, moving the Overton window, and excluding voices. Those are all ways people can avoid having to defend unsupportable positions, or justify holding them. When they drown out or silence the alternatives, falsehoods can become the dominant paradigm.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 20, 2019, 07:52:25 PM
Quote from: Pat;1100320
By not responding, you're ceding the argument. Wrong information and wrong conclusions need to be countered, wherever they occur, either with correct data and logical conclusions, or ridicule. Look how much effect is spent on redefining the language, moving the Overton window, and excluding voices. Those are all ways people who can avoid having to defend unsupportable positions, or justify holding them. When they drown out or silence the alternatives, falsehoods can become the dominant paradigm.

Eggsactly.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: RandyB on August 20, 2019, 08:00:10 PM
Famous quote time: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."1

1According to Quote Investigator (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/04/good-men-do/), that wasn't Edmund Burke.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 20, 2019, 08:18:45 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1100323
Famous quote time: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."1

1According to Quote Investigator (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/04/good-men-do/), that wasn't Edmund Burke.

Many times the reason PCs do go hunt monsters.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 20, 2019, 08:30:52 PM
Quote from: trechriron;1100308
I seriously wish we would stop using SJW in the pejorative. It gives those of us who actually fight for social justice a bad rap.

Social Justice is mind rot that creates only harm, chaos, and mocks the ideal that justice stands for.  It is poison to the fools that believe in it as it creates thousands if not millions of brainwash cultists that will use violence on innocent people if there is a whiff of disagreement.  The very idea of social justice must die and be remembered for the toxic ideology that it truly is.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Armchair Gamer on August 20, 2019, 08:58:51 PM
I refuse to concede the hijacking of a legitimate Catholic term, coined by Pope Pius XI, as I understand it. Thus, I prefer to describe these sorts as 'the Hard Left,' 'hard progressives,' or 'dupes and pawns of a major branch of the nascent Anti-Church.' ;)
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Pat on August 20, 2019, 09:12:54 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1100329
I refuse to concede the hijacking of a legitimate Catholic term, coined by Pope Pius XI, as I understand it. Thus, I prefer to describe these sorts as 'the Hard Left,' 'hard progressives,' or 'dupes and pawns of a major branch of the nascent Anti-Church.' ;)
It goes back to the 19th century in Europe, but it did rise to prominence thanks to the Catholic church during the 20th.

I'm actually curious how and when it was co-opted into its current usage. My impression is it's become a far, far more common in just the last few years, but a search on Google Trends shows usage has been fairly stable since 2004 (that's as far as it goes back). Which really surprised me.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: RandyB on August 20, 2019, 09:14:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100324
Many times the reason PCs do go hunt monsters.

Which puts the lie to the "murderhobo" meme. More to like!
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 20, 2019, 09:29:20 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1100331
Which puts the lie to the "murderhobo" meme. More to like!

PCs are equal opportunity murderers thats why they travel around.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Haffrung on August 20, 2019, 09:38:44 PM
Quote from: Mankcam;1100104
How did all this politically correct crap get into something as non-political as fantasy rpgs?


To the zealots driving the progressive bus today, everything is political. And the demographics of the woke - white, educated, middle and upper class class, extremely online - matches up pretty closely to the demographics of nerd culture. I was banned from another tabletop forum for simply advocating that political issues be confined to the political sub-folders. Because, as all decent folk know, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

What's dismaying is how an extremely dedicated fraction of people in a hobby or sub-culture can effectively take over that culture and dictate its norms. It's not really the zealots who are the problem, it's the dupes who enable the zealots out of cowardice and opportunism. The forum admins and opinion-shapers who don't really buy this shit, but feel they need to go along with it to be seen to be a good person and not one of the Bad Guys.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 20, 2019, 09:46:39 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1100334
PCs are equal opportunity murderers thats why they travel around.

This is true in most of my games, I like the hero for hire or hero by accident trope. Also when dealing with dystopias, post-apoc scenarios it makes more sense to have mercenaries than goody two shoes heroes.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 21, 2019, 04:04:41 AM
Quote from: Pat;1100320
By not responding, you're ceding the argument.

This isn't really how it works. Anyway SJWs do not 'argue'. Really they feed off attempts to argue with them in the classical-Liberal Marketplace of Ideas tradition - they are sort of mental vampires. They follow the Gramscian Long March Through the Institutions. They take over organisations, using a very standard playbook. Vox Day is a nasty sort but he sets out the process clearly in "SJWs Always Lie".

Talking about SJW witterings here is pointless and only gives them fuel. What is useful is making sure authority figures - which can be as minor as a Facebook group owner or bulletin board site owner, or organiser of a public Meetup - are aware of the tactics and know to look out for SJW infiltrators and deal with them swiftly. A 'no politics' rule can be effective, it worked on EN World for many years before the SJWs successfully Converged the site through appeal to Morrus & co's sense of male chivalry. Angry posts here don't do anything to protect neutral ground from SJW takeover.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 21, 2019, 04:11:17 AM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100336
It's not really the zealots who are the problem, it's the dupes who enable the zealots out of cowardice and opportunism. The forum admins and opinion-shapers who don't really buy this shit, but feel they need to go along with it to be seen to be a good person and not one of the Bad Guys.

Yes, indeed. Teaching those "nice liberals" about SJW infiltration and how to counter it in the bud is by far the most important task. That is not easy since SJW ideology is carefully crafted to mentally disarm and Converge the "nice liberal". The tactics were refined and developed by the Frankfurt School centred initially at Columbia University New York, and are most effective against the earnest Anglo-American mindset, but also work very well in bureaucratic systems -including large corporations as well as government - all over the Anglosphere.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: JRT on August 21, 2019, 06:05:39 AM
Quote from: S'mon;1100348
Talking about SJW witterings here is pointless and only gives them fuel. What is useful is making sure authority figures - which can be as minor as a Facebook group owner or bulletin board site owner, or organiser of a public Meetup - are aware of the tactics and know to look out for SJW infiltrators and deal with them swiftly. A 'no politics' rule can be effective, it worked on EN World for many years before the SJWs successfully Converged the site through appeal to Morrus & co's sense of male chivalry. Angry posts here don't do anything to protect neutral ground from SJW takeover.

Agreed.      

These threads do absolutely nothing to "change hearts and minds", simply because this is a small populated forum and people are preaching to the choir.  I agree about the "giving them fuel" aspect as well--threads like these either boost the opponents signal (especially when you bring attention to a blog that probably has little traffic), or somebody goes too far in the thread and they can cherry-pick that statement and make it look like this whole site is filled with "hateful folks" (like the guy who said he didn't like homosexuals in one recent thread).  Ignoring them isn't "ceding the argument", since there was never a debate here in the first place.

People complaining about these topics here are ranting or venting.  The "we should mock them" defense a few posters are using work if you were say a commentator or comedian with a large audience that could be swayed, but they do very little on a small message board with a micro-audience.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 21, 2019, 06:44:14 AM
Quote from: JRT;1100355
People complaining about these topics here are ranting or venting.  The "we should mock them" defense a few posters are using work if you were say a commentator or comedian with a large audience that could be swayed

I feel even then it can be counter productive. I recall how first wave Political Correctness entered the UK ca 1990. It came to public attention mostly with right-wing newspapers reporting "Look at what these crazy people are doing/saying!" Which greatly amplified the crazy people's signal as we all wondered whether we now had to do what they said. Some wondered if there was merit in what they were saying.  Perhaps they were left wing and naturally did the opposite of whatever the Daily Mail's view was. Soon enough we did indeed have to do what the PC Brigade said.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 21, 2019, 06:50:26 AM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100336
What's dismaying is how an extremely dedicated fraction of people in a hobby or sub-culture can effectively take over that culture and dictate its norms. It's not really the zealots who are the problem, it's the dupes who enable the zealots out of cowardice and opportunism. The forum admins and opinion-shapers who don't really buy this shit, but feel they need to go along with it to be seen to be a good person and not one of the Bad Guys.

Bad gaming is worse than no gaming.  If you make the gaming bad, good gamers will not invite you back.

Compared to 30 years ago; compared to 20 years ago, there is less stigma among gamers generally, but that doesn't mean there aren't gamers with absolutely no social skills who ruin it for everyone else.  If you find you're not welcome at the gaming table, you should take a good hard look at your behaviors and consider whether you might be the problem.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Pat on August 21, 2019, 06:56:05 AM
Quote from: S'mon;1100348
This isn't really how it works. Anyway SJWs do not 'argue'.
Even when someone doesn't argue, you're ceding the ability to challenge their opinions by raising an argument. Look at how much the overall debate in some many areas has shifted in just the last half a dozen years. That's because fringe voices have dominated the conversation. They were dismissed until they became dominant, and after that people were afraid to speak up. It's inflection point politics.

I definitely agree that a board like this is small potatoes. And so is the voice of anyone who isn't a major "influencer", to adapt a rather toxic term. But it's like voting: Your vote? It doesn't matter, not even a little. No race of any importance in the modern era has been decided by one vote, and it unlikely to ever be the case. But collectively? Votes matter, and so does speaking out. The delusion that your vote matters is why democracy works, and the same is true in the marketplace of ideas.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 21, 2019, 08:51:03 AM
"Social Justice" was a weasel phrase when it was first coined.*  Adding "warriors" to the end, especially in the context of people playing games, takes it from weasel phrase to something deserving nothing but mockery.

* an extended discussion of why it is a weasel phrase is way off topic here, but to explain what I mean, "Justice" admits no modifiers.  Things are either just or they aren't--though admittedly in the real world, humans trying to tell which is which is almost impossible at times.  Meanwhile, "Social" is just a backhand reference to society (AKA a community).  Skipping the off topic argument and jumping straight to the conclusion, "Social Justice" is an attempt to not talk about the distinction between Justice and Mercy, with which Society will always struggle.  

In gaming terms, try to be nice and pleasant and accommodating to people, but part of doing that is excluding assholes from the table.  That's messy and personal and best done locally.  You'll end up with a community that is somewhat forgiving, but has at least unwritten rules, and it will more or less work if maintained with a little effort.  However, that's more effort than SJW want to put forward.  Ergo, the best way to achieve what SJW say they want (not what they actually want, which is power and control) is to exclude people like SJW from the table.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Alderaan Crumbs on August 21, 2019, 09:23:08 AM
Quote from: Brendan;1100256
Obviously I don't believe that.  I was making a point.


My jab was at the content, not you. These people are insane.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 21, 2019, 10:24:55 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100361
Compared to 30 years ago; compared to 20 years ago, there is less stigma among gamers generally, but that doesn't mean there aren't gamers with absolutely no social skills who ruin it for everyone else.  If you find you're not welcome at the gaming table, you should take a good hard look at your behaviors and consider whether you might be the problem.

I agree. Unfortunatley, Social Justice types often lack self-reflection.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 21, 2019, 10:27:59 AM
Quote from: JRT;1100355
Agreed.      

These threads do absolutely nothing to "change hearts and minds", simply because this is a small populated forum and people are preaching to the choir.  I agree about the "giving them fuel" aspect as well--threads like these either boost the opponents signal (especially when you bring attention to a blog that probably has little traffic), or somebody goes too far in the thread and they can cherry-pick that statement and make it look like this whole site is filled with "hateful folks" (like the guy who said he didn't like homosexuals in one recent thread).  Ignoring them isn't "ceding the argument", since there was never a debate here in the first place.

People complaining about these topics here are ranting or venting.  The "we should mock them" defense a few posters are using work if you were say a commentator or comedian with a large audience that could be swayed, but they do very little on a small message board with a micro-audience.


1. How many people are lurkers watching the internet drama?
2. If it is just a small message board with a micro-audience, what harm then to do some venting?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2019, 10:31:23 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100371
1. How many people are lurkers watching the internet drama?
2. If it is just a small message board with a micro-audience, what harm then to do some venting?

Obvious concern troll is obvious. The aim is to silence criticism and mockery of the SocJus cult and it's zealots.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Panjumanju on August 21, 2019, 10:36:59 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100059
My thoughts are that the concept of decolonization is a way for white progressive activists to control and monopolize conversation. This reddit post is a great example of that.


Thank you, you've well characterized a long-standing sentiment I've had that I've never been able to put to words.

//Panjumanju
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 21, 2019, 10:47:13 AM
Quote from: Panjumanju;1100373
Thank you, you've well characterized a long-standing sentiment I've had that I've never been able to put to words.

//Panjumanju

Thank you.
And, to me, that's why we bitch about SJWs. To get the ideas out there, discuss them, see if they have any merit, and hopefully be better equipped to deal with SJW hegemony.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 21, 2019, 10:47:48 AM
Quote from: Panjumanju;1100373
Thank you, you've well characterized a long-standing sentiment I've had that I've never been able to put to words.

//Panjumanju


Thank you.
And, to me, that's why we bitch about SJWs. To get the ideas out there, discuss them, see if they have any merit, and hopefully be better equipped to deal with SJW hegemony.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Haffrung on August 21, 2019, 11:08:13 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100361
Bad gaming is worse than no gaming.  If you make the gaming bad, good gamers will not invite you back.

Compared to 30 years ago; compared to 20 years ago, there is less stigma among gamers generally, but that doesn't mean there aren't gamers with absolutely no social skills who ruin it for everyone else.  If you find you're not welcome at the gaming table, you should take a good hard look at your behaviors and consider whether you might be the problem.

I have no idea how this relates to what I posted. I'm a well-adjusted professional in a good job with a happy family and lots of friends. I have no shortage of people to play tabletop games with.

We were talking about zealots like the one who wrote the blog. People who take radical academic theories about colonialism, constructivism, and intersectionality, and turn them into social agendas that drive every single fucking thing in their life. And why those zealots have such outsized influence on hobbies and entertainment.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Haffrung on August 21, 2019, 11:25:38 AM
Quote from: S'mon;1100348

Talking about SJW witterings here is pointless and only gives them fuel.

Disagree. The zealots are too small in number to enforce cultural norms themselves. They need the aid and compliance of much larger numbers of moderate people. The reign of outrage will subside only once the rest of us realize just how many of us there are and how few of them.

Quote from: S'mon;1100348
What is useful is making sure authority figures - which can be as minor as a Facebook group owner or bulletin board site owner, or organiser of a public Meetup - are aware of the tactics and know to look out for SJW infiltrators and deal with them swiftly. A 'no politics' rule can be effective, it worked on EN World for many years before the SJWs successfully Converged the site through appeal to Morrus & co's sense of male chivalry. Angry posts here don't do anything to protect neutral ground from SJW takeover.

But those authority figures feel they're just doing the decent, liberal thing, like everyone who isn't an alt-right bigot. The extreme distortions of online discourse have caused those authority figures to badly misapprehend the true makeup of their audience. They think it's a 50 vs 50 culture war, where in reality it's a 10 vs 10 culture war, with 80 per cent of people wishing they'd just shut the fuck up and let them enjoy D&D, or boardgames, or comics, or comedy, etc.

Boardgamegeek is being taken over right now by SJWs because, like most hobbies, the forums are dominated by small numbers of highly active users. And the zealots are very good at employing the most effective weapon in the SJW arsenal: if you're a decent and compassionate person, then surely you must agree that [colonialism/sexism/bigotry/intersectionality/heteromative, etc. etc. etc.]. So even people who think SJW theories are flakey and their weaponization of shame offputting go along because they want to be decent and compassionate people. The only thing that will stop them is large numbers of decent and compassionate people speaking up and saying you don't have to be a bigot to oppose politicizing every single aspect of tabletop gaming.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jeff37923 on August 21, 2019, 12:53:35 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100361
 If you find you're not welcome at the gaming table, you should take a good hard look at your behaviors and consider whether you might be the problem.


There is some wisdom in this statement. There would be more if it acknowledged that maybe the others at the gaming table are the problem, and it may be better for your sanity to not be one of those "Popular Kids".
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: FickleGM on August 21, 2019, 01:42:00 PM
I will forego the rant brewing in my head, but boy have I grown to hate the word "problematic" and have come to equate it with the act of trying to remove something that I enjoy (usually as a foil or a challenge to be overcome) from the games I play or other media I digest.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: JRT on August 21, 2019, 01:55:56 PM
Eh, I still agree with Kyle and S'mon, not stoking the fires is the best way to handle it.

The one danger is to become a zealot yourself against the other zealots.  That's the key thing to avoid.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2019, 02:00:01 PM
Quote from: JRT;1100403
Being a zealot turns off a lot of people.  With #1, the lurkers just get annoyed at the tone, and fighting zealotry with zealotry just makes both sides look unsympathetic.  And for #2, the harm is it can distract from the board people who just want to talk about RPG and games, etc.  I sense a growing fatigue on this line of subject matter.



I honestly don't mind criticism or mockery--but I do agree with the posters that one of the best ways to combat this is to not fuel the fire, which both Kyle and S'mon have stated.  Otherwise, you run the risk of becoming a zealot yourself, and you will alienate the middleman--the people you supposedly are trying to reach.  

And saying you may be taking things a little too far is not "silencing", its simply stating opinions you may not like.

Concern troll is obvious troll.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: JRT on August 21, 2019, 02:13:21 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100404
Concern troll is obvious troll.

Eh, think what you want--heck, while you were responding I felt it wasn't worth it and edited my post.  

Calling anybody who disagrees with you a troll though--you're engaging in the same tactics that they use. Pot meet Kettle, I guess.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Omega on August 21, 2019, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: Jaeger;1100223
The so-called "satanic panic" was a toothless fart into a strong breeze compared to what the SJW's are doing.

The SJW's already had more impact, have exerted more influence and control over over the social mores of the mainstream RPG hobby than all of the fraud, huckster, peacock-preacher's involved in the "satanic-panic" combined.


Youd like to think that. But the Satanic Panic had far reaching impacts and was appallingly pervasive well into the early to mid 90s before most of the fallout lost its impact. Lives were ruined and books, toys and more were burned and destroyed. Some were so terrified of the mere hint of it they would pull up stakes and flee if they thought their kids were in "that cult".

The thing alot of folk keep missing though is this.

The SJW cult is really just a continuation of the "Political Correctness" of the 90s, which was a continuation of the "Moral Guardians" of the 70s and so on. This bunch has been around a long long long time and are rather cyclic in that about every 20 years theres a big surge to "Clean everything and make it safe!" taken inevitably and usually right out the gate too far. Which causes pushback from those wrongfully attacked and hence you see this slow escalation of media that is increasingly offensive as pushback.

The other problem is that this new wave of the Prude Patrol has been also co-opted by 3rd wave Feminists so they can piggyback on moral outrage.

And the article in the OP is nothing new really. These sociopaths can and will see demons in anything.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Omega on August 21, 2019, 02:40:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100254
What!? You mean to tell me the push to teach creationism in schools wasn't stopped by just ignoring it's proponents? I can't even.


Yes. That is exactly what happened in some areas. There was a push to keep or return creationism in schools. People ignored it and boom, now its being taught to your kids. And usually evolution and other sciences get the short end of the stick in the process.

Ignoring this stuff only allows them more time to get a foothold and convert more people. Flat Earthers?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jhkim on August 21, 2019, 02:51:56 PM
As far as whether to respond about progressive opinions in gaming -- I don't mind it, but can we try to keep it more in Pundit's forum? I know that Pundit is allowing more of such discussion here in the RPG forum lately as moderator, but I feel like it threatens to drown out more practical gaming talk.

To my mind, the real problem is echo chambers -- which are encouraged by social media, and create a lot more partisanship and outrage.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Omega on August 21, 2019, 02:52:58 PM
Quote from: trechriron;1100308
I seriously wish we would stop using SJW in the pejorative. It gives those of us who actually fight for social justice a bad rap. These people are only co-opting the term as they found a less-discerning crowd there.


That is the problem really. And it is in no way limited to games or media. I have seen this in various fan and special interest groups where another group infiltrated and co-opted it. It doesnt allways work. But the times it fails is alot less than the times it succeeds.

And its allways the same damn argument. "Well you see this thing you are doing is also really this thing we are doing too!" or "Well you see this thing you dont like is also really this thing we dont like too!" Sometimes to the point that the interest or hate subject becomes literally "everything on earth".

Social Justice was primed for abuse and it attracted ever more abusive people to the point "everything is racist, everything is sexist!" or "everything is a storytelling game!" or "Everything is pornographic!" or "Everything is violence!" because to these nuts it is never enough.

The truth of the matter is. You are not a social justice warrior. You are a normal concerned human being.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Haffrung on August 21, 2019, 03:28:01 PM
SJW is a pejorative. And I'd be happy to use a term that the people in question find acceptable. But what do we have? The intellectual foundation of the movement is radical social constructivism, and the moral foundation is extreme equity. Neither rolls off the tongue or is sufficient alone. And I don't think 'leftist' is the answer, because leftism to many people is basic stuff like universal public health care. 'Liberal' is dead wrong, because there's nothing liberal about judging and shaming and enforcing conformity. Of course the people in question don't have a term for themselves, because they think this stuff is so obvious to everyone willing to open their eyes that it doesn't need a name. It's simply justice. As though there has ever been a universal consensus of what constitutes justice.

One of the things I find remarkable about this movement is how so many of its champions come from academia, and yet seem totally incapable of contesting and defending their beliefs on rational grounds. Their fallback is always moralistic, in the same way the beliefs of religious conservatives are.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2019, 04:17:21 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100417
SJW is a pejorative. And I'd be happy to use a term that the people in question find acceptable. But what do we have? The intellectual foundation of the movement is radical social constructivism, and the moral foundation is extreme equity. Neither rolls off the tongue or is sufficient alone. And I don't think 'leftist' is the answer, because leftism to many people is basic stuff like universal public health care. 'Liberal' is dead wrong, because there's nothing liberal about judging and shaming and enforcing conformity. Of course the people in question don't have a term for themselves, because they think this stuff is so obvious to everyone willing to open their eyes that it doesn't need a name. It's simply justice. As though there has ever been a universal consensus of what constitutes justice.

One of the things I find remarkable about this movement is how so many of its champions come from academia, and yet seem totally incapable of contesting and defending their beliefs on rational grounds. Their fallback is always moralistic, in the same way the beliefs of religious conservatives are.

The term was coined by them, we just use it to mock them because they aren't for Justice, they are anti-social and they are the farthest thing from a warrior.

Yes, they are moralistic, because it's not an academic field, it's a cult, an atheist religion. Just compare them with religious fundamentalists:

Anti-Sex? Check
Moralistic? Check
Authoritarian? Check
Totalitarian? Check
Science deniers? Check (among the sciences they deny is biology, parts of evolution, psychology, evo-psich)
Believe in an invisible, all knowing, all powerful, omnipotent and unfalsifiable being? Check (God on one side and Teh Patriarchy tm  on the other)
Dogmatic? Check
Use mantras? Check
Hate towards the unbeliever? Check
Ego maniacal? Check
Use logical fallacies and double think to justify their unjustifiable beliefs? Check
Double standards? Check
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 21, 2019, 05:09:02 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100417
Their fallback is always moralistic, in the same way the beliefs of religious conservatives are.

Not just religious conservatives...  

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2019, 06:21:24 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100429
Not just religious conservatives...  

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...

Leave it to a leftie to equate that to the zealots in his side or the other side.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: SavageSchemer on August 21, 2019, 07:02:48 PM
Quote from: Pat;1100362
Even when someone doesn't argue, you're ceding the ability to challenge their opinions by raising an argument. Look at how much the overall debate in some many areas has shifted in just the last half a dozen years. That's because fringe voices have dominated the conversation. They were dismissed until they became dominant, and after that people were afraid to speak up. It's inflection point politics.

I definitely agree that a board like this is small potatoes. And so is the voice of anyone who isn't a major "influencer", to adapt a rather toxic term. But it's like voting: Your vote? It doesn't matter, not even a little. No race of any importance in the modern era has been decided by one vote, and it unlikely to ever be the case. But collectively? Votes matter, and so does speaking out. The delusion that your vote matters is why democracy works, and the same is true in the marketplace of ideas.


Or, to quote Mark Twain:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3766[/ATTACH]
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jeff37923 on August 21, 2019, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100429
Not just religious conservatives...  

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...

....
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3767[/ATTACH]
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Haffrung on August 21, 2019, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100429
Not just religious conservatives...  

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...

I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Pat on August 21, 2019, 09:00:09 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100453
I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.

That's inverting the situation. If the Constitution were treated as holy writ we wouldn't have Roe v Wade, the right of privacy, or other "constitutional" matters that were invented out of whole cloth by Supreme Court judges. The 9th and 10th amendments would still exist in practice, and would act as check on the unfettered growth of federal and even state and local governments.

What the people supporting the Constitution are saying is it's a law, the supreme law. But not in some mystical sense, just in the sense that it supersedes all other laws. And since the time of Hammurabi it's been recognized that there's a real value in laws that are written, have a specific meaning, and people agree on that meaning. That provides consistency, and ensures that the laws that are passed are the ones that are actually enforced, giving the power to the lawmakers, and therefore the public who elects them. When you have appointed figures just making up stuff, there's no accountability. When the law is ignored, there's no consistency because people can't predict how they'll be treated. Which is a particularly insidious threat, because it undermines the rule of law and the social contract by giving the government a sword of Damocles they can hold over the heads of anyone who doesn't comply with their whims. And when people talk about the Constitution being a "living document", they should be submitting amendments for approval by Congress and the states, allowing a public debate, consensus or consequences, and transparency. Just reinterpreting it in ad hoc ways with not justification beyond the vague sophistry that "times have changed" lets unaccountable philosopher kings and queens make decisions that cannot be overridden by any other part of government.

Plus, it's a good document. Not perfect; the Founding Fathers, like all people throughout history, were rooted in their time, and they had to make some squicky compromises. But they also made clever, pragmatic decisions and evoked transcendent principles that speak to the ages. In in the annals of political history it's one of the all time greats.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Lynn on August 21, 2019, 09:27:09 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100453
I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.

Some do, but also many acknowledge it isn't so perfect that it cannot be amended.

For many Americans, these old documents and the narratives around them stand at the root of American culture. They've worked quite well for the most part. The difficulty in amending the Constitution also ensures a continuity.

While living abroad, I met many newly ex-pat'd Americans and Canadians that seemingly didn't get that they had a culture. They had quite a bit of culture shock, and formed very strong opinions of the different society. They didn't seem to get that their response to the different culture comes from a place of internalized cultural norms - that they had a distinctive culture.

There are a lot of things non-Americans don't easily get, and for good reason.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 22, 2019, 12:11:10 AM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100336
And the demographics of the woke - white, educated, middle and upper class class, extremely online - matches up pretty closely to the demographics of nerd culture.


THIS is an excellent point.


Quote from: JRT;1100355
The "we should mock them" defense a few posters are using work if you were say a commentator or comedian with a large audience that could be swayed, but they do very little on a small message board with a micro-audience.


Pebbles in small ponds have a way of traveling.

If more people feel they are not alone in the culture war, they are more likely to take a stand. According to the MSM, everybody is either wonderfully woke or a naughty Nazi...and we good folk know what to do to Nazis! Thus many people have no idea the vast majority don't want to eat the SJW shit sandwich, but are afraid to speak up.


Quote from: Haffrung;1100380
The reign of outrage will subside only once the rest of us realize just how many of us there are and how few of them.


Exactly, but that requires the "Mushy Middle" to stand up. As I mentioned in another thread, there's no effective difference between Silent Dissent and Silent Acceptance. Either way, the SJWs win control of the culture and society.


Quote from: jhkim;1100411
As far as whether to respond about progressive opinions in gaming -- I don't mind it, but can we try to keep it more in Pundit's forum? I know that Pundit is allowing more of such discussion here in the RPG forum lately as moderator, but I feel like it threatens to drown out more practical gaming talk.


I started a thread in the Help Desk asking for a "Politics In Gaming" subforum. Everyone is welcome to comment there.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?41023-We-need-a-POLITICS-IN-GAMING-subforum&p=1100142#post1100142


Quote from: Haffrung;1100453
I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.


That's because other democracies suck nut and the USA kicks almighty ass!!

Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jhkim on August 22, 2019, 12:21:58 AM
Quote from: jhkim
As far as whether to respond about progressive opinions in gaming -- I don't mind it, but can we try to keep it more in Pundit's forum? I know that Pundit is allowing more of such discussion here in the RPG forum lately as moderator, but I feel like it threatens to drown out more practical gaming talk.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1100471
I started a thread in the Help Desk asking for a "Politics In Gaming" subforum. Everyone is welcome to comment there.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?41023-We-need-a-POLITICS-IN-GAMING-subforum&p=1100142#post1100142
Thanks, I will.

Even in the absence of an official yes to another forum, though, we can still try to encourage each other to reduce the amount of politics in the RPG forum.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 22, 2019, 12:36:25 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1100474
Thanks, I will.

Even in the absence of an official yes to another forum, though, we can still try to encourage each other to reduce the amount of politics in the RPG forum.

What did you expect when you clicked on a thread titled " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Aglondir on August 22, 2019, 12:37:33 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1100471
I started a thread in the Help Desk asking for a "Politics In Gaming" subforum. Everyone is welcome to comment there.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?41023-We-need-a-POLITICS-IN-GAMING-subforum&p=1100142#post1100142

Agree.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 22, 2019, 12:56:19 AM
Quote from: FickleGM;1100400
I will forego the rant brewing in my head, but boy have I grown to hate the word "problematic" and have come to equate it with the act of trying to remove something that I enjoy (usually as a foil or a challenge to be overcome) from the games I play or other media I digest.


I feel ya.  I want these SJWs to shut the fuck up and their enablers to finally figure out that aiding these assholes is a road to failure.  Maybe then the SJWs would get the medicine they so richly deserve.  Maybe then the hobby can move on to greater things.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 22, 2019, 03:19:15 AM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100453
I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.


One of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to always hold the enemy to their own principles. So Alinskyites will appeal to the Constitution or to male chivalry if they think it will serve their ends, without themselves believing a word of it. Basically what DeadDM is doing above.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 22, 2019, 03:23:32 AM
Quote from: Lynn;1100458

While living abroad, I met many newly ex-pat'd Americans and Canadians that seemingly didn't get that they had a culture. They had quite a bit of culture shock, and formed very strong opinions of the different society. They didn't seem to get that their response to the different culture comes from a place of internalized cultural norms - that they had a distinctive culture.


That is certainly true. I see it much less with US Southerners though (the ones not under Yankee mind contol) - they have an awareness their culture is somewhat different from the dominant US culture, and so they are comfier with the idea that cultures differ. Mainstream Anglo-Americans often seem to really struggle with the fact that they come from a particular culture and refuse to accept there are varying cultures. Like the American woman I knew who kept insisting that Yorkshiremen were horribly sexist because they called her 'love'. I pointed out they also called me 'love', but nothing seemed to register.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: crkrueger on August 22, 2019, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: S'mon;1100492
One of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to always hold the enemy to their own principles. So Alinskyites will appeal to the Constitution or to male chivalry if they think it will serve their ends, without themselves believing a word of it. Basically what DeadDM is doing above.


I know.  It's so goddamn fucking transparent, isn't it?  Tiring.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 22, 2019, 03:50:39 AM
Quote from: S'mon;1100493
Mainstream Anglo-Americans often seem to really struggle with the fact that they come from a particular culture and refuse to accept there are varying cultures.


We call these people morons.

I think we give them passports in hopes they won't return.

There are several regional "cultures" in the USA. Southern and Northern California don't even share the same culture, let alone the Northeast from the Southwest. Most of the big cities have their own culture. Noo Yawk isn't Philly which isn't Chicago.

The rocking boys in Overkill are quite clear that New Jersey has its own culture separate from the rest of the Northeast. Apparently, if you're from Jersey and have a band, it's state law you gotta sing about it.

Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: AmazingOnionMan on August 22, 2019, 09:06:43 AM
Mandatory reply and Fuck Yeah! to Overkill.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: ArrozConLeche on August 22, 2019, 09:17:10 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1100411
As far as whether to respond about progressive opinions in gaming -- I don't mind it, but can we try to keep it more in Pundit's forum? I know that Pundit is allowing more of such discussion here in the RPG forum lately as moderator, but I feel like it threatens to drown out more practical gaming talk.

To my mind, the real problem is echo chambers -- which are encouraged by social media, and create a lot more partisanship and outrage.


If it doesn't interest you, just put on your big boy pants and ignore the topic. All you haves to do is keeps scrolling by.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 22, 2019, 09:36:56 AM
Quote from: S'mon;1100492
One of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to always hold the enemy to their own principles. So Alinskyites will appeal to the Constitution or to male chivalry if they think it will serve their ends, without themselves believing a word of it. Basically what DeadDM is doing above.

I'm sorry - are you saying that if someone claims certain principles but acts against them, pointing out that they are not acting in accordance with the principles they claim to possess makes me a radical?  

I myself hold a number of principles very dearly and it includes that all people are inherently equally deserving of dignity and respect despite differences between individuals in any category of performance.  I don't care if you're faster, stronger, smarter, better-looking, richer and more charismatic than another individual - you are both human beings and deserve the respect and consideration of that fact.  When we, as a society, treat individuals harshly and dehumanize them (as the president has been doing to political asylum seekers of late), I object because it contradicts my principles.  Pointing out that it contradicts the principles on which America was founded can't be objected to - that's claiming that doing what we know is hard IS HARD and we don't want to do it.  Well, frankly, that's not good enough.  

I'd say that if you don't love the principles that we have enshrined at the center of our political structures, you should leave.  I'm all about creating a more perfect union.  That starts with a commitment to our highest ideals and putting them into practice.  I think that's where the United States has frequently stumbled; we sometimes forget what is right and just and delude ourselves into believing that what is convenient must be right.  

If you believe something but it becomes inconvenient, if you truly believe it, you'll stand by your principles.  If you don't, you never had those principles to begin with.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on August 22, 2019, 09:47:16 AM
Quote from: trechriron;1100308
It gives those of us who actually fight for social justice a bad rap.


Fuck "social" justice.  Actual justice is worth fighting for and there's no need to water it down with weasel words and extraneous detail.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Haffrung on August 22, 2019, 09:48:58 AM
Quote from: FickleGM;1100400
I will forego the rant brewing in my head, but boy have I grown to hate the word "problematic" and have come to equate it with the act of trying to remove something that I enjoy (usually as a foil or a challenge to be overcome) from the games I play or other media I digest.


"Problematic" really means "morally reprehensible." But the people who use the word are wary of openly expressing an outlook that's associated with social conservatives. So they use a euphemism instead.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 22, 2019, 10:01:56 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535

I'd say that if you don't love the principles that we have enshrined at the center of our political structures, you should leave.  


Whereas I would say that principles should serve the people, not people the principles.

Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jeff37923 on August 22, 2019, 10:06:36 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535
If you believe something but it becomes inconvenient, if you truly believe it, you'll stand by your principles.  If you don't, you never had those principles to begin with.

In another thread on this site, your heart bleeds about the plight of drug addicted homeless in Los Angelas (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40945-Video-on-the-quot-SJW-quot-situation-at-Ravelry). You live in Knoxville. If you truly believed in the plight of the homeless in your home town, why haven't I ever seen you out feeding them on Wednesday nights (https://www.knoxvilledreamcenter.org/homeless-outreach)?

Could it be that you are a hypocrite?

(And no, none of this has anything to do with TTRPGs but it would be nice if these SJWs would Shut The Fuck Up and Go Play!)
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Lynn on August 22, 2019, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: S'mon;1100493
That is certainly true. I see it much less with US Southerners though (the ones not under Yankee mind contol) - they have an awareness their culture is somewhat different from the dominant US culture, and so they are comfier with the idea that cultures differ. Mainstream Anglo-Americans often seem to really struggle with the fact that they come from a particular culture and refuse to accept there are varying cultures. Like the American woman I knew who kept insisting that Yorkshiremen were horribly sexist because they called her 'love'. I pointed out they also called me 'love', but nothing seemed to register.


Yes, that is certainly true about the Southern states (esp Texas). I kind of felt the same way being originally from Oregon. Although not a southern state, we've been flooded with smiling people from California, and now Californians make up almost 20% of the state. You an easily guess the one city they all flock to as well.

At times I really want to take out my +5 Axe of the Lumberjack Lords, let loose the Rabid Beavers of War and burn down the SAD (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/seasonal-affective-disorder/index.shtml) lamp factories that sustain their evil presence.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: tenbones on August 22, 2019, 01:34:18 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535
I myself hold a number of principles very dearly and it includes that all people are inherently equally deserving of dignity and respect despite differences between individuals in any category of performance.  I don't care if you're faster, stronger, smarter, better-looking, richer and more charismatic than another individual - you are both human beings and deserve the respect and consideration of that fact.

Without any distinction? This is where the Pathological Post-Modern viewpoint breaks down usually. So *everyone* is entitled to these views from you, without distinction? So I'm clear. Or do you want nuance that a bit? What about assholes? Or people you think are assholes? See below....

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535
When we, as a society, treat individuals harshly and dehumanize them (as the president has been doing to political asylum seekers of late), I object because it contradicts my principles.  Pointing out that it contradicts the principles on which America was founded can't be objected to - that's claiming that doing what we know is hard IS HARD and we don't want to do it.  Well, frankly, that's not good enough.

There it is. You conflated *your* principles, without distinction, to include *everyone* in the plurality. Worse, you dropped the distinction that Trump himself has made many times about this idea - 1) people coming over the border illegally for political asylum only make up 30% of the illegal migrants. Of that 30% - only 5k of the over 100k asylum seekers are from South/Central America, and the method they go about trying to use Asylum Laws as recognized by NATO and the UN - is unlawful. As most of them are not from Mexico specifically. 2) Whether you like Trump or not is irrelevant to the claims you're making about undistinguished dignity and respect - because the people he was targetting his language at were the criminal element. That people decided to take their Trump-hatred and conflate it to mean everyone from Mexico despite the many examples of him saying otherwise, is disingenuous. They *are* coming over the border. They *are* killing people. They *are* raping women and using children for their own illegal purposes. People *are* suffering unnecessarily at our expense for Cartel's coffers. You can have your "principles" but you need to accept the cost - then we can have a discussion.

Because by your own standards you're also not giving Trump any benefit of the doubt, or "dignity or respect". But you think he's an asshole and despite anything he says, you've presumed to know what's in his heart and mind. (I think he's an asshole too. But I'm okay with his policies). But here it sounds like your "principles" are demanding some nuance.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535
I'd say that if you don't love the principles that we have enshrined at the center of our political structures, you should leave.  I'm all about creating a more perfect union.  That starts with a commitment to our highest ideals and putting them into practice.  I think that's where the United States has frequently stumbled; we sometimes forget what is right and just and delude ourselves into believing that what is convenient must be right.

No. YOU have enshrined at the heart of your mind. Not WE. We have rules and laws and not all of them are good. But if we can't look honestly at the outcomes of our rules and laws without people conflating emotional handwringing to equate to "principles", then we're setting ourselves up for failure. The Union doesn't include people not in the Union. What is "right" doesn't mean it comes at the price of what "is Just" - and vice-versa. That's why we have Laws. To regulate that ebb-and-flow. You want to talk about convenience? You're living that right now, by having the ability to even have this discussion on *this* forum.

Those that typically believe as you do, (and kudos to you for at least being here to make the attempt) exist in censorious echo-chambers where this kind of discussion is impossible. Whose principles are in operation now? Whose principles are allowing for what is "right and just" vs. what is prescribed by force? You can't have it both ways.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535
If you believe something but it becomes inconvenient, if you truly believe it, you'll stand by your principles.  If you don't, you never had those principles to begin with.

Then go to TBP and tell them all about it. See how far it gets you.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: trechriron on August 22, 2019, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: S'mon;1100316
What social justice do you fight for? ...


Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100315
Social Justice = Racial, gender, etc "justice"

The term was coined by them, we use it to mack them because they deserve mockery, it's not like you couldn't call yourself an advocate.


Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100317
I dislike Social Justice in the intended sense. I think adding identity politics to justice leads to the injustice and secular-religious tribalism we saw at Evergreen College, and in what we call SJWs in general. ...


Quote from: Snowman0147;1100327
Social Justice is mind rot that creates only harm, chaos, and mocks the ideal that justice stands for.  It is poison to the fools that believe in it as it creates thousands if not millions of brainwash cultists that will use violence on innocent people if there is a whiff of disagreement.  The very idea of social justice must die and be remembered for the toxic ideology that it truly is.


Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1100365
"Social Justice" was a weasel phrase when it was first coined.*  Adding "warriors" to the end, especially in the context of people playing games, takes it from weasel phrase to something deserving nothing but mockery. ...


Quote from: Omega;1100412
...

The truth of the matter is. You are not a social justice warrior. You are a normal concerned human being.


Quote from: Haffrung;1100417
SJW is a pejorative. ... Their fallback is always moralistic, in the same way the beliefs of religious conservatives are.


Thoughtful and passionate responses. Just as I have an issue identifying as a Christian because I don't appreciate common prevailing behaviors... I probably should have an issue identifying as a SJW for the same reasons.

Instead, I will call myself a Justice and Equality Advocate. I don't need to go to war. I will lead by example while respecting and appreciating all the other human beings around me.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: insubordinate polyhedral on August 23, 2019, 12:13:23 AM
Quote from: JRT;1100403
Eh, I still agree with Kyle and S'mon, not stoking the fires is the best way to handle it.

The one danger is to become a zealot yourself against the other zealots.  That's the key thing to avoid.


"He who fights monsters should beware that he himself does not become a monster. For when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

I love the internet, and yet I wonder about all the abyssal gazing it has brought forth.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 23, 2019, 03:39:55 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535
I'd say that if you don't love the principles that we have enshrined at the center of our political structures, you should leave.


Sounds great!! I agree with you we need to deport liberals trying to piss on the 2nd Amendment and any socialists like Bernie and Pocahantas as capitalism is a central structure of our country.

As for illegal aliens, one of our enshrined principles is immigrants need to enter legally, and when they enter legally and work to assimilate as fellow Americans, they are welcomed.


Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1100646
I love the internet, and yet I wonder about all the abyssal gazing it has brought forth.


Your quote gives you the answer.


Quote from: trechriron;1100577
I will lead by example while respecting and appreciating all the other human beings around me.


That's some killer nyborg you are snorting!

Other people might need to be tolerated, but few are worth respect and appreciation, except in the most basic legal sense.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: RPGPundit on August 27, 2019, 10:05:05 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100068
I think games are more interesting when every monster has at least the slightest possible chance of being redeemed.  


HUMANS are the ones who are supposed to have a slight chance of being redeemed.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: RPGPundit on August 27, 2019, 10:29:49 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100123
How can you explain that African witch doctors could throw lightning from their fingers before they were colonized huh!?

Checkmate shitlords!

Edited to add video.



Please refrain from posting off-topic political material. If you're talking about "colonialism" in the context of the hobby, it's on-topic. As soon as you jump out of that, it's not.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: RPGPundit on August 27, 2019, 10:30:19 PM
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1100161
We're talking about the same people who proudly proclaim that Mathematics is racist (https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/10/math-racist-university-illinois-professor/). With a straight face! So, nothing surprises me anymore. "Educate" (indoctrinate) a fool and all you make is a dangerous fool.


Refrain from talking about general political subjects. Stay on the specific topic of gaming.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: RPGPundit on August 27, 2019, 10:32:24 PM
From here on, people who post off-topic general politics will be sanctioned.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: David Johansen on August 27, 2019, 10:48:51 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;1101144
HUMANS are the ones who are supposed to have a slight chance of being redeemed.

Humans are always the worst monsters.  Humans get up to stuff that makes demons and devils shake in their boots.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: WillInNewHaven on August 28, 2019, 12:51:14 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;1101144
HUMANS are the ones who are supposed to have a slight chance of being redeemed.


Tolkien, for one, disagreed. In his letters, he regretted that the Orcs he had created were irredeemable. He actually seemed to agonize over it. I only have Orcs in my campaigns when there is an Evil Overlord for them to serve and they are not redeemable. But almost anyone else is redeemable and there have been a couple of redeemed Goblins and even a Troll. My next project is someone from Portland or Seattle or an Auburn fan.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 28, 2019, 04:12:45 AM
For me, "redeemable" anybody depends on the specific setting, not default assumptions.

In general, I don't gravitate to nuance in my settings. I'm cool with the Good, the Bad and the Ugly being what they are. However, if I'm running a morally gray setting, then I'm happy allowing a spectrum of behavior for all sentient beings.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Chris24601 on August 28, 2019, 09:22:54 AM
I really only have two irredeemable creatures in my setting; demons and undead (the mindless ones are mindless automatons, the intelligent ones chose the shadow rather than go into the light... no power in the setting can make you an undead against your will, you must choose it). Everything else sapient is basically human in their capacity for free will and their capacity for good or evil (and technically the demons and undead both made their choice between good and evil too and only exist because they chose evil).

My orcs are humans who were mutated by the energies of The Cataclysm into super-predators (stronger, faster, able to see in the dark and track by scent), they tend to be more aggressive, but they retain human minds. If you run across civilian orcs you probably shouldn't butcher them on sight. they're just folks trying to get by. BUT you're very unlikely to meet any of those because they're well behind the borders of the Orcish Empire; an unholy mashup of the worst traits of the Roman Empire and Mongol Hordes who believes it is the legitimate successor to the fallen Praetorian Empire, worships its founder as an ascended god and whose state policy is that all non-orcs must be enslaved or eradicated for the glory of the Empire.

The only orcs that PCs are going to meet in ordinary circumstances are the ones who volunteered to go out and systematically murder, rape, enslave and plunder their neighbors in a campaign whose aim is to weaken them enough for eventual conquest. You can mow them down without the slightest bit of remorse because they're actual terrorists plotting ongoing war crimes against your people. They're evil because they freely choose to commit evil acts.

Potential redemption doesn't mean there can't be clear cut Good and Evil. Just because something is technically redeemable doesn't mean its practically redeemable or that its choices are misunderstood. It just means they chose the path they're on so while the paladin may lament their refusal to surrender, he can cut them down in order to protect innocents with a clear conscience (while the LG fighter doesn't even give them a warning because they're about to kill innocents and their actions speak for themselves.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: SavageSchemer on August 28, 2019, 09:52:39 AM
Quote from: Chris24601;1101220
I really only have two irredeemable creatures in my setting; demons and undead (the mindless ones are mindless automatons, the intelligent ones chose the shadow rather than go into the light... no power in the setting can make you an undead against your will, you must choose it). Everything else sapient is basically human in their capacity for free will and their capacity for good or evil (and technically the demons and undead both made their choice between good and evil too and only exist because they chose evil).

If you can't be made undead against your will, where do the mindless automatons come from?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 28, 2019, 09:56:24 AM
There's also the practical side effects of going with the "redeemed evil thing"--it's easy to overuse it.  Do it too much, and it loses its power.  It's maybe not quite as bad as the "NPC betrays the party" thing, but it definitely has a limit.

I recently had an adventure with some "redeemable" hags.  They were still amoral in a lot of ways, and certainly self-centered.  But they were trying to stop a much more dangerous evil, and in the process had gotten on a long walk towards something better.  (That's a long walk as in "centuries".)  The main reason it worked so well is that I so rarely play that card.  And even when I played it this time, the hags still had some definite issues for "good" characters. The players were genuinely conflicted about what to do, which led to some great roleplaying with the NPCs, and even better between the PCs.

If everything is gray, then the shades of gray don't resonate very much.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: nope on August 28, 2019, 12:09:04 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1101223
If everything is gray, then the shades of gray don't resonate very much.
I think this is a very important point that resonates beyond evil races or etc., but all the way up to individual characters.

I think it's a mistake, for example, to insist on your bad guys / militaristic empires / nefarious wizards / etc. to always have a 'good and logical reason for being bad' AKA appealing to the morality of your PCs; the king is only evil and hunting down hedge mages because they took his daughter years ago and he's still looking for her, the wizard is only turning people into abominations because the townsfolk exclude him from their holiday celebrations and he believes once he's transformed them all that he can finally live in harmony with them, so on and so forth. Not that it's bad to have reasons for your baddies doing what they do, but turning every villain into a moral quandary takes the punch out of all your moral quandaries.

I think it's a mistake not to let some people simply be power hungry, or greedy, or insane, or overcome with jealousy or grief, or straight-up megalomaniacal. By the same token I think it's healthy to sprinkle in unabashedly good people; not limited to friendly NPCs but even kings, nobles, wizards, etc. (assuming it's possible in-setting) who simply are decent folks or actively work towards the betterment of themselves in others.

This is really just a long-winded way of adding to and repeating Steven Mitchell's succinct and accurate point. Shades of gray work best when not all characters fall into the middle 15% of the spectrum, similar to the way that horror is much more effective when punctuated by moments of humor and respite.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 28, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;1101163
Humans are always the worst monsters.  Humans get up to stuff that makes demons and devils shake in their boots.

And the ones capable of stunning acts of compassion and mercy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keshia_Thomas)

___

My general approach on redeemable monsters is that any one can be redeemed. Even supernatural ones. That's Raven's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_(DC_Comics)) character concept.

For day-to-day dungeon crawling/adventuring, trying to redeem every orc is going to result in dead PCs.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jhkim on August 28, 2019, 12:36:28 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1101202
For me, "redeemable" anybody depends on the specific setting, not default assumptions.

In general, I don't gravitate to nuance in my settings. I'm cool with the Good, the Bad and the Ugly being what they are. However, if I'm running a morally gray setting, then I'm happy allowing a spectrum of behavior for all sentient beings.
I'm with this. What creatures are redeemable depends on the setting.

In a recent campaign I ran, humans were the evil bad guys, and they were unredeemable.

It's a fantasy world - there's no real truth.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: nope on August 28, 2019, 12:40:56 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1101246
In a recent campaign I ran, humans were the evil bad guys, and they were unredeemable.
You ran a FernGully campaign?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jhkim on August 28, 2019, 01:26:50 PM
Quote from: Antiquation!;1101247
You ran a FernGully campaign?
Heh.

It was D&D in an alternate setting where orcs, goblins, kobolds, gnolls, and other humanoids were good-aligned -- opposed by evil humans, elves, and dwarves. The PCs were trying to find and restore the ancient Temple of the Elements - using various material from the original Temple of Elemental Evil module.

It was using 5E rules for a fairly old-school-ish game with the reversal that the "dungeon" settings are the sites for social interaction and intrigue, and "town" settings were for monster-fighting.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: nope on August 28, 2019, 01:35:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1101252
Heh.

It was D&D in an alternate setting where orcs, goblins, kobolds, gnolls, and other humanoids were good-aligned -- opposed by evil humans, elves, and dwarves. The PCs were trying to find and restore the ancient Temple of the Elements - using various material from the original Temple of Elemental Evil module.

It was using 5E rules for a fairly old-school-ish game with the reversal that the "dungeon" settings are the sites for social interaction and intrigue, and "town" settings were for monster-fighting.

Hm, that's a pretty fun idea. I like the idea of reversing the socializing/fighting settings, that seems like it would be an interesting change of pace.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: ffilz on August 28, 2019, 02:10:06 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1101252
Heh.

It was D&D in an alternate setting where orcs, goblins, kobolds, gnolls, and other humanoids were good-aligned -- opposed by evil humans, elves, and dwarves. The PCs were trying to find and restore the ancient Temple of the Elements - using various material from the original Temple of Elemental Evil module.

It was using 5E rules for a fairly old-school-ish game with the reversal that the "dungeon" settings are the sites for social interaction and intrigue, and "town" settings were for monster-fighting.

Ah, Monsters! Monsters! using D&D... There's been other things along that idea since then of course (Reverse Dungeon for another).
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Chris24601 on August 28, 2019, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1101222
If you can't be made undead against your will, where do the mindless automatons come from?

Allow me to clarify.

Your soul cannot be made an undead against your will (nor can it be destroyed). Animating a corpse is no different than animating a pile of chemicals. There's no soul or will attached to it. It's a robot that does whatever it's creator commands it to do. There's no unwilling soul trapped in some torturous half-life where it's compelled by inhuman instincts to commit atrocities. That's moved on to whatever comes next. Only those unwilling to go into the light; who choose to linger in darkness (often out of a desire for revenge or some other black emotion); rise as intelligent undead empowered by the Shadow and their own twisted souls.

The inviolability of souls is a big deal for me. There are no soul-eaters or soul-destroying spells in my world (you can't even be possessed unwillingly... though demon worshipers are more than willing to torture you until you break and agree just to make the pain stop... which also means there's often a timeframe where rescuing someone before they succumb is a viable mission to undertake).
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jhkim on August 28, 2019, 02:49:09 PM
Quote from: ffilz;1101259
Ah, Monsters! Monsters! using D&D... There's been other things along that idea since then of course (Reverse Dungeon for another).

Yup. My version was a little different because the humanoid races were all good-aligned while humans were evil - but it's still a similar idea.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: HappyDaze on August 28, 2019, 03:13:47 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1101267
Allow me to clarify.

Your soul cannot be made an undead against your will (nor can it be destroyed). Animating a corpse is no different than animating a pile of chemicals. There's no soul or will attached to it. It's a robot that does whatever it's creator commands it to do. There's no unwilling soul trapped in some torturous half-life where it's compelled by inhuman instincts to commit atrocities. That's moved on to whatever comes next. Only those unwilling to go into the light; who choose to linger in darkness (often out of a desire for revenge or some other black emotion); rise as intelligent undead empowered by the Shadow and their own twisted souls.

The inviolability of souls is a big deal for me. There are no soul-eaters or soul-destroying spells in my world (you can't even be possessed unwillingly... though demon worshipers are more than willing to torture you until you break and agree just to make the pain stop... which also means there's often a timeframe where rescuing someone before they succumb is a viable mission to undertake).

So in your game, is an animated corpse (zombie) an undead or a construct?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Alderaan Crumbs on August 28, 2019, 04:28:12 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;1100453
I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.

 
It could be that the United States Constitution is the one of the strongest foundations of a country and way of life, that while imperfect, has done more to elevate the world than any other in the same short period of its existence. No other nation has accumulated more power and abused it less nor has any other nation been so coveted a sanctuary. That's why the envious, jealous, ignorant and dishonest abhor it so.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Premier on August 28, 2019, 04:59:22 PM
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1101280
It could be that the United States Constitution is the one of the strongest foundations of a country and way of life, that while imperfect, has done more to elevate the world than any other in the same short period of its existence.


It could be. Or it could not be. Simply saying "it could be that" is NOT proof or even evidence of the statement.


Quote
No other nation has accumulated more power


Point of order: the USA accumulating a vast amount of power has nothing to do with the moral purity, intellectual integrity, democratic tenacity of whatever-the-fuck-else of its citizens or its constitution. It has to do with the fact that geographically, the European settlers happened to stumble into the single best real estate in the world, just as it was becoming largely vacant thanks to European disease killing off most of the locals. It's protected from foreign invasion by two oceans as trenches and a frigid near-arctic environment on a third side. It has plenty of excellent natural resources, and a very favourable network of waterways for cargo transportation. Most of it is warm enough for large-scale agriculture but not warm enough to foster tropical diseases that do a real number on your population. That is what made the USA an economic, and consequently a military, superpower; not some sort of mythic American Exceptionalism mumbo-jumbo.


Quote
and abused it less


Trail of Tears plus all the other Red Man stuff. Chattel slavery. Literally dozens of dictatorial regimes all around the world installed and/or supported, formerly in the name of fighting the Soviets, more recently simply "because they serve our interests". If you honestly want to argue that the U.S. constitution somehow made the world a better place, you REALLY don't want to base your argument on who abuses power and who doesn't.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Chris24601 on August 28, 2019, 05:02:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1101274
So in your game, is an animated corpse (zombie) an undead or a construct?

They're essentially a construct animated by the Shadow, the same power source that allows intelligent undead to control their own corpses (and manifest various stereotypical undead abilities). They're generally considered undead simply because the animated constructs have the same general strengths and weaknesses as the intelligent undead do (do not tire, breathe or need to eat or drink (NEED being the operative word... the intelligent undead have an endless hunger, but don't technically need to eat or drink anything to survive), are immune to toxic damage, resistant to cold, but vulnerable to fire and take damage from direct sunlight (yes, all undead, not just vampires... they are entities of pure destruction entirely cut off from the light of the sun, the hearth fires of community and the fires of the forge; the utter antithesis of the pockets of civilization that struggle to grow from the ashes of The Cataclysm).

In a sense it's kinda like the distinction between a brain-in-a-jar cyborg (intelligent undead) and a robot run by a computer (mindless undead). The robot body is identical, but one is directed by a will and the other by a program.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Opaopajr on August 28, 2019, 06:01:47 PM
This issue about redemption is a discussion of Contrast and Brightness. Contrast is interested in the spectrum between stark black & white through shades of grey. Brightness is interested in the spectrum between hope (optimism) through despair (pessimism). The In Nomine "DMG" helped clarify this for me, along with adding a Humor axis (comic through serious), and it helped me understand how to consciously establish setting atmosphere beforehand.

And there are plenty more axes (axisesess :p) to talk about in tailoring a campaign setting, from progress, goals, interaction focii (3 pillars of combat, explore, social), scope (time, place, social strata), deviational breadth (side quests, pro-active PC integration), etc.

But the thing is to be conscious about these aesthetics before some outsider struggles to judge them for their conscientiousness to the player audience. And I think most settings DO try to express these aesthetic parameters implicitly. Consciously choosing for your setting and expressing its conceits (explicitly or implicitly) clears out a lot of confusion and gets good faith actors to "same page" their expectations and responsibilities.

However essays like this I do not find to be good faith actors. They read more like grad school humanities making hay so as to pass a class and snow a professor with their bullshit. ;) I should know, I had an awesome post-modern teacher have us "craft our own narrative" argument consciously so as to understand the fragile and addictively self-reinforcing nature of connecting the dots our own way. It is a tempting power, but it can be used to wrought abuse, (such as weaponized pettiness,) as any other. ;)
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: nope on August 28, 2019, 06:12:44 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;1101303
[...]but [crafting our own narrative] can be used to wrought abuse, (such as weaponized pettiness,) as any other. ;)
Whoa! Hey, pump the brakes, you've just outed my only two debate strategies! :mad:
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Opaopajr on August 28, 2019, 06:20:36 PM
Quote from: Antiquation!;1101307
Whoa! Hey, pump the brakes, you've just outed my only two debate strategies! :mad:

I did say it was addictive, suggesting it is a lot of fun! :p
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: SavageSchemer on August 28, 2019, 06:54:43 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1101267
Allow me to clarify.

Your soul cannot be made an undead against your will (nor can it be destroyed). Animating a corpse is no different than animating a pile of chemicals. There's no soul or will attached to it. It's a robot that does whatever it's creator commands it to do. There's no unwilling soul trapped in some torturous half-life where it's compelled by inhuman instincts to commit atrocities. That's moved on to whatever comes next. Only those unwilling to go into the light; who choose to linger in darkness (often out of a desire for revenge or some other black emotion); rise as intelligent undead empowered by the Shadow and their own twisted souls.

The inviolability of souls is a big deal for me. There are no soul-eaters or soul-destroying spells in my world (you can't even be possessed unwillingly... though demon worshipers are more than willing to torture you until you break and agree just to make the pain stop... which also means there's often a timeframe where rescuing someone before they succumb is a viable mission to undertake).


Very helpful. Thanks.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 28, 2019, 07:03:04 PM
Everybody is the hero in his own internal narrative. I'd be very interested in a game with colonization on it done right. By this I mean the colonizers see themselves as righteous and so do the colonized, and the setting's particulars let the GM/Players make up their mind about who (if anybody) is the good guy.

Regarding this same topic I haven't found a worldbook that deals with Aztecs/Mayans in a fair and real way. All I have found are deeply infected with the noble savage myth virus. This is even more so with the few games I know about that deal with colonization of the new world (A portuguese or brazilian one and one other I think spanish).
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 28, 2019, 07:18:19 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101325
Everybody is the hero in his own internal narrative. I'd be very interested in a game with colonization on it done right. By this I mean the colonizers see themselves as righteous and so do the colonized, and the setting's particulars let the GM/Players make up their mind about who (if anybody) is the good guy..

If you are not a Hero in your own story then you are a bit player in someone elses...and you might not like the part.

Quote
Regarding this same topic I haven't found a worldbook that deals with Aztecs/Mayans in a fair and real way. All I have found are deeply infected with the noble savage myth virus. This is even more so with the few games I know about that deal with colonization of the new world (A portuguese or brazilian one and one other I think spanish).

I listened to a podcast by an Italian historian on the Aztecs and the culture of human sacrifice and cannibalism sounded pretty disturbing.  Could you pull off a worldbook that can do that in a real and fair way?  Maybe.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 28, 2019, 07:55:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1101329
If you are not a Hero in your own story then you are a bit player in someone elses...and you might not like the part.



I listened to a podcast by an Italian historian on the Aztecs and the culture of human sacrifice and cannibalism sounded pretty disturbing.  Could you pull off a worldbook that can do that in a real and fair way?  Maybe.

It is disturbing, they were ritualistic cannibals, so most of the year they weren't. But they weren't the first nor the only ones in this pat of the world to engage in it. Some scholars postulate this wasn't always the case, it was only in the last part of their empire.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 28, 2019, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101336
It is disturbing, they were ritualistic cannibals, so most of the year they weren't. But they weren't the first nor the only ones in this pat of the world to engage in it. Some scholars postulate this wasn't always the case, it was only in the last part of their empire.

I dont know that it makes me feel better that they only eat people in the holidays.  :o
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: David Johansen on August 28, 2019, 09:29:40 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1101239
And the ones capable of stunning acts of compassion and mercy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keshia_Thomas)


Absolutely!  We're really all over the place.  And you can get people who do truly horrible things one day and truly great things the next.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 28, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1101339
I dont know that it makes me feel better that they only eat people in the holidays.  :o


It's not supposed to make you feel better, it's to make a better more interesting game world.

As for being fair you would need to leave your 21st century western morality to the side and this is in regards of both the Europeans and the natives from that time. Sure Europeans didn't eat long pig anymore but this was something done in every part of the world at one time or another.

Recognizing the faults of both parties and presenting them both as empires subjugating others. (the Aztecs had several other peoples under their thumb, which is why some joined the Spaniards against the Aztecs.) would allow for a better game world IMHO.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: ArrozConLeche on August 29, 2019, 09:21:30 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101325
Everybody is the hero in his own internal narrative. I'd be very interested in a game with colonization on it done right. By this I mean the colonizers see themselves as righteous and so do the colonized, and the setting's particulars let the GM/Players make up their mind about who (if anybody) is the good guy.

Regarding this same topic I haven't found a worldbook that deals with Aztecs/Mayans in a fair and real way. All I have found are deeply infected with the noble savage myth virus. This is even more so with the few games I know about that deal with colonization of the new world (A portuguese or brazilian one and one other I think spanish).


Even Tekumel?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 29, 2019, 10:43:52 AM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1101403
Even Tekumel?

Tekumel is inspired by, not a supposed historically accurate setting.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: ArrozConLeche on August 29, 2019, 11:12:45 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101412
Tekumel is inspired by, not a supposed historically accurate setting.

OK. I missed that you were making distinction re settings.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 29, 2019, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1101418
OK. I missed that you were making distinction re settings.

Probably my fault. Yes, I'm making a distinction between fantasy settings inspired by X and world books that pretend to be historically accurate. GURPS and the d20 (forgot the publisher) ones pretend to be the latter while rewriting stuff to stick to the noble savage myth.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jhkim on August 29, 2019, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101424
Probably my fault. Yes, I'm making a distinction between fantasy settings inspired by X and world books that pretend to be historically accurate. GURPS and the d20 (forgot the publisher) ones pretend to be the latter while rewriting stuff to stick to the noble savage myth.
Did you feel like GURPS Aztecs was revisionist toward the noble savage myth? From my recollection, it was as accurate as I understood things, and it didn't shy away from human sacrifice, for example. Heck, there's a human sacrifice on the cover.

Personally, I'm doubtful about mixing too much historical realities and gaming. Most games gloss over the more grim realities of the past -- like disease, torture, and slavery. That's just as true for European history as elsewhere. In my experience, there's good reason for this - players don't go for it, even if they're well versed in the real history. I think a game can introduce overlooked aspects of history, but trying to go into fully detailed historical reality turns players off.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 29, 2019, 01:54:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1101432
Did you feel like GURPS Aztecs was revisionist toward the noble savage myth? From my recollection, it was as accurate as I understood things, and it didn't shy away from human sacrifice, for example. Heck, there's a human sacrifice on the cover.

Personally, I'm doubtful about mixing too much historical realities and gaming. Most games gloss over the more grim realities of the past -- like disease, torture, and slavery. That's just as true for European history as elsewhere. In my experience, there's good reason for this - players don't go for it, even if they're well versed in the real history. I think a game can introduce overlooked aspects of history, but trying to go into fully detailed historical reality turns players off.

Yes I think they did.

If your world book pretends to be historically accurate then I want the grim reality. It should be up to me as a GM to choose what to include and what not to include.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 29, 2019, 02:15:01 PM
My response to demands to Decolonise me and my stuff:

(https://dgeiu3fz282x5.cloudfront.net/g/l/l-16540.jpg)

I actually have this as a plaque on my office wall at work, along with a poster "The British Navy Guards the Freedom of Us All."
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: TNMalt on August 29, 2019, 03:29:49 PM
I swing center left, just to get that out there. So, just from the op, it looks like someone really wants more nuance. Well, hit up some good old fashioned sword and sorcery, it has all the shades of gray that anyone can want. ;)
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 29, 2019, 06:09:53 PM
How would you do a RPG where the "good guys" were doing the ritual sacrifices?

To the Mayan/Aztec hero, the gods need the blood and without the gods, our nation (and perhaps the world) falls into oblivion.

Especially in a fantasy RPG where the gods are literally present, demanding sacrifice in exchange for crops.

That's the kind of stuff I like in grim Swords & Sorcery settings!
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 29, 2019, 06:16:04 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1101477
How would you do a RPG where the "good guys" were doing the ritual sacrifices?

To the Mayan/Aztec hero, the gods need the blood and without the gods, our nation (and perhaps the world) falls into oblivion.

Especially in a fantasy RPG where the gods are literally present, demanding sacrifice in exchange for crops.

That's the kind of stuff I like in grim Swords & Sorcery settings!

The way that I would do it is to make the human sacrifice voluntary and only for special ceremonies and otherwise sacrificing gold, animals etc for day to day worship.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Pat on August 29, 2019, 06:28:02 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1101479
The way that I would do it is to make the human sacrifice voluntary and only for special ceremonies and otherwise sacrificing gold, animals etc for day to day worship.
Murder is so much better when you brainwash your victims from an early age to like it.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jhkim on August 29, 2019, 06:30:06 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1101477
How would you do a RPG where the "good guys" were doing the ritual sacrifices?

To the Mayan/Aztec hero, the gods need the blood and without the gods, our nation (and perhaps the world) falls into oblivion.

Especially in a fantasy RPG where the gods are literally present, demanding sacrifice in exchange for crops.

That's the kind of stuff I like in grim Swords & Sorcery settings!
I had a HarnMaster character for a while who was an Agrikan priest - who is one of the more evil gods in the Harn pantheon - a warlike god, comparable to Ares in the Greek pantheon in some ways. He was dark, but he was very civic-minded, on the side of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. He didn't do classical human sacrifice, but he did do a witch hunt - finding a scapegoat who was probably innocent and publicly torturing them to raise the town's spirits.

I think I did pretty well to pitch him as a strong defender of the overall good and the rule of law. It helped that we were set in the Kingdom of Rethem, which has Agrik as one of its major gods. Thus, he really was the town priest and took his civic duty seriously.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 29, 2019, 06:39:11 PM
Quote from: Pat;1101486
Murder is so much better when you brainwash your victims from an early age to like it.

The whole of Christianity is based on the concept of self sacrifice.  It seems like a double standard to accuse another culture of murder in the same situation.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 29, 2019, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1101488
The whole of Christianity is based on the concept of self sacrifice.  It seems like a double standard to accuse another culture of murder in the same situation.

Wait a minute, where exactly does it say you should let the priest kill you to please God?

I know exactly from where certain Jewish/Christian things come, and some do come from human sacrifice and cannibalism and some come from the prohibition of it. But I can't recall anywhere in the OT or the NT where you're supposed to let the priest kill you.

I'm afraid your conflating self sacrifice with human sacrifice, the latter IS murder.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Chris24601 on August 29, 2019, 07:08:09 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1101488
The whole of Christianity is based on the concept of self sacrifice.  It seems like a double standard to accuse another culture of murder in the same situation.

It does not however regard it as a sin to refuse to be murdered (in fact self defense and defense of others is regarded as heroic). Indeed, the entire point of the sacrifice of Isaac story in the Old Testament was to refute the use of human/child sacrifice (prevalent in the surrounding cultures) as something wholey unacceptable to God.

Jesus took it one step further saying "I, God, am going to die in your place for your sins. I am the Final Sacrifice, once and for all." The entire point of Christianity is that God made the ultimate sacrifice for us and doesn't need any sacrifice from us. All He asked for was that we actually treat each other with love.

Seriously, you can't get much more antithetical to the Aztecs system of morality/cosmology than Christianity.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 29, 2019, 07:13:11 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1101493
It does not however regard it as a sin to refuse to be murdered (in fact self defense and defense of others is regarded as heroic). Indeed, the entire point of the sacrifice of Isaac story in the Old Testament was to refute the use of human/child sacrifice (prevalent in the surrounding cultures) as something wholey unacceptable to God.

Jesus took it one step further saying "I, God, am going to die in your place for your sins. I am the Final Sacrifice, once and for all." The entire point of Christianity is that God made the ultimate sacrifice for us and doesn't need any sacrifice from us. All He asked for was that we actually treat each other with love.

Seriously, you can't get much more antithetical to the Aztecs system of morality/cosmology than Christianity.

Firstly, I am not comparing Christianity to the Aztecs, that never happened.

I am saying that voluntary human sacrifice is not the same as murder.  As an example we dont go around saying that Jesus was murdered or that he was brain washed.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 29, 2019, 07:18:53 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1101493
It does not however regard it as a sin to refuse to be murdered (in fact self defense and defense of others is regarded as heroic). Indeed, the entire point of the sacrifice of Isaac story in the Old Testament was to refute the use of human/child sacrifice (prevalent in the surrounding cultures) as something wholey unacceptable to God.

Jesus took it one step further saying "I, God, am going to die in your place for your sins. I am the Final Sacrifice, once and for all." The entire point of Christianity is that God made the ultimate sacrifice for us and doesn't need any sacrifice from us. All He asked for was that we actually treat each other with love.

Seriously, you can't get much more antithetical to the Aztecs system of morality/cosmology than Christianity.

Actually the Jews practiced human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism for a long time. Remember the part about giving your first born in sacrifice to the temple? Remember what they did with all the livestock sacrifices? Remember the prohibition of taking from the holocaust and even dipping your bread in the blood of it because it's for the priest?

Of course back then they didn't call themselves Jews, and were polytheists.

As for Christian morality, the vicarious forgiving of grievances by someone else but the wronged? You can't forgive someone in my name, and if you want a moral system then you need to include reparations towards the wronged by the offender.

Back to RPGs tough.

You could also include all the cannibalism and human sacrifice as it being imposed by the ruling class of priests by superstition and parlor tricks. Or, if the gods are real then you need no other justification, the Aztec gods were really demons and demanded ritual human sacrifice and cannibalism in exchange for their protection.

I seem to remember a discussion right here in this forum about blood magic and how to use it. What's different from that in the Maya/Aztec case?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 29, 2019, 07:30:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101497
I seem to remember a discussion right here in this forum about blood magic and how to use it. What's different from that in the Maya/Aztec case?

Ah, blood magic - now we are in my wheel house.

Your life, your soul for the Phoenix.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 29, 2019, 07:37:21 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1101503
Ah, blood magic - now we are in my wheel house.

Your life, your soul for the Phoenix.

Well not exactly, more like for Tezcatlipoca, but yes, it was blood magic, a ritual to have good harvests and to prevent the end of the sun.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 29, 2019, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101507
Well not exactly, more like for Tezcatlipoca, but yes, it was blood magic, a ritual to have good harvests and to prevent the end of the sun.

My quote is in reference to the Blood Speakers in L5R.  I think that they work because there is no real life people to be offended when Bloodspeakers murder people for their blood and then raise them as undead.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 29, 2019, 07:52:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1101510
My quote is in reference to the Blood Speakers in L5R.  I think that they work because there is no real life people to be offended when Bloodspeakers murder people for their blood and then raise them as undead.

When people tell me That's offensive! I tell them so?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Shasarak on August 29, 2019, 08:25:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101513
When people tell me That's offensive! I tell them so?

I feel like I am having three different conversations.

But, Bloodspeakers are great!  More blood magic!
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 30, 2019, 02:38:06 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1101495
I am saying that voluntary human sacrifice is not the same as murder.
There are degrees of "voluntary". In principle, Hindu widows voluntarily threw themselves on their deceased husband's funeral pyre. In practice, once compelling them to do so was outlawed by the British, extraordinarily few did so. This suggests that it was perhaps not as voluntary as its advocates claimed.

Of course, most societies which had human sacrifice also had child sacrifice. Would you acknowledge a moral difference between an adult consenting to be killed and a 4yo child? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-29/peru-child-sacrifice/11459208

In this as in so many other things, we see that when confronted by the unpleasant details of reality, moral relativism crumples and tears like a used dim sim bag in a gutter on a rainy day.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Omega on August 30, 2019, 06:09:25 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1101477
How would you do a RPG where the "good guys" were doing the ritual sacrifices?

To the Mayan/Aztec hero, the gods need the blood and without the gods, our nation (and perhaps the world) falls into oblivion.

Especially in a fantasy RPG where the gods are literally present, demanding sacrifice in exchange for crops.

That's the kind of stuff I like in grim Swords & Sorcery settings!


The Aztec expansion for Mecha! was that. The gods really did need the sacrifices and every mech, vehicle and weapon was powered by a god the other gods sacrificed as the essentially broadcast power source. Without the sacrifices the gods weaken and eventually the mechs and ships would lose power and the world overrun by any number of aliens the aztec gods were warring with and training the people to eventually throw at.

It is a wargame setting. But a well thought out one.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Omega on August 30, 2019, 06:19:51 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101492
Wait a minute, where exactly does it say you should let the priest kill you to please God?


er... off topic... but there is that segment on the OT where a priest is asked by god to sacrifice his own kid. Different angle. But close enough.

Back on topic.

We have been over this ground before from various directions and this latest movement is nothing new at this point. Insane people making their insane proclamations. And the uninformed, the dishonest, the insane and the mentally stunted believing it because why the fuck not?

And again. This is not limited to RPGs. It is creeping into board games and video games.

At this point if you see one of these nutcases making some pronouncement against something, odds are its crept into other venues allready, or soon will.

Over on BGG the current new virtue signal fad is to declare how horrible and wrong "damsels in distress" is and how no one should ever have that in a game or RPG ever again because its bad and wrong.

God only knows what nuttery it will be next week or the week after that.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Chris24601 on August 30, 2019, 09:35:44 AM
Quote from: Omega;1101549
er... off topic... but there is that segment on the OT where a priest is asked by god to sacrifice his own kid. Different angle. But close enough.
Except that's a bit like saying the "This is your brain on drugs" ads with a frying egg were Pro-Drug Use.

The entire point of that sequence (written down during the Babylonian captivity with much of Genesis being less literal "this happened" and more "this conveys a truth of our faith.") was that human sacrifice is NOT what God wants us to do. Have faith to trust that God would follow through on his promises (God had promised Abraham that he would have descendants that numbered as the starts through the son we was being asked to sacrifice)... yes. But, you don't actually have to sacrifice anyone for God.

Basically the book of Genesis is a whole brochure on "why we're not like our neighbors." The Babylonian creation myth involved creation over six ages where man is meant to be a slave to the gods (and thereby to the to king and priests who represent the gods). Genesis counters with God created the world in six days and created man out of love to be his children. Other religions said sacrificing kids to the gods is necessary, Genesis counters with "our God doesn't make you sacrifice your kids." Even the "Eye for an Eye" code of justice codified in the Old Testament was a step down from many of the local cultures where disproportionate retribution was the norm.

So no, it doesn't say you should let the priest kill you to please God. Its saying the opposite.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2019, 02:14:10 PM
Quote from: Omega;1101549
er... off topic... but there is that segment on the OT where a priest is asked by god to sacrifice his own kid. Different angle. But close enough.

Back on topic.

We have been over this ground before from various directions and this latest movement is nothing new at this point. Insane people making their insane proclamations. And the uninformed, the dishonest, the insane and the mentally stunted believing it because why the fuck not?

And again. This is not limited to RPGs. It is creeping into board games and video games.

At this point if you see one of these nutcases making some pronouncement against something, odds are its crept into other venues allready, or soon will.

Over on BGG the current new virtue signal fad is to declare how horrible and wrong "damsels in distress" is and how no one should ever have that in a game or RPG ever again because its bad and wrong.

God only knows what nuttery it will be next week or the week after that.

That gave me the idea for a title for an RPG, think it would give it's author/publisher free publicity in the form of Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Spinachcat on August 30, 2019, 06:02:43 PM
Quote from: Omega;1101548
The Aztec expansion for Mecha! was that. The gods really did need the sacrifices and every mech, vehicle and weapon was powered by a god the other gods sacrificed as the essentially broadcast power source. Without the sacrifices the gods weaken and eventually the mechs and ships would lose power and the world overrun by any number of aliens the aztec gods were warring with and training the people to eventually throw at.


Awesome!!!

Unfortunately, the company looks dead. :(
http://www.flagshipgames.com/index.html

Here's a wiki about the game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecha!
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on August 31, 2019, 03:02:59 PM
Goddammit, I think we need to "re-colonize" D&D

Nowadays, I see terms like "problematic" to be a selling point, kind of like the Parental Advisory sticker on a rock album
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: S'mon on August 31, 2019, 04:50:50 PM
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1101711
Goddammit, I think we need to "re-colonize" D&D

Nowadays, I see terms like "problematic" to be a selling point, kind of like the Parental Advisory sticker on a rock album

(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/westward-ho-allegorical-female-figure-everett.jpg)

Doc Sammy's muse leading the People back to the Promised Land of RPGing.
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: jeff37923 on August 31, 2019, 05:15:49 PM
Quote from: S'mon;1101716
(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/westward-ho-allegorical-female-figure-everett.jpg)

Doc Sammy's muse leading the People back to the Promised Land of RPGing.

The Manifest Destiny of TTRPGs dies hard....
Title: " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"
Post by: Thornhammer on August 31, 2019, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1101719
The Manifest Destiny of TTRPGs dies hard....

Roll your dice west, young man!