The 1st Edition Ranger was a neat concept; they were wilderness warriors and expert scouts, but they were implied to be part of something greater. Their restriction on behavior and limited to "any Good" alignment gave them a "heroic defender" vibe. It's like they're part of an organization of elite soldiers dedicated to defending their homelands against the monstrous threats of the savage realms. They also gained followers of a similar bent, from fellow rangers to fantastic beasts.
The 2nd and 3rd Edition Edition Rangers retained many of the features of its earlier counterpart, although the inclusion of kits allowed variant archetypes (such as the Amazon warrior). They also lost their "extra damage to giants/humanoids" and could specialize in other monsters. The 3rd Edition Ranger went even further and dropped alignment restrictions, allowing evil rangers for the first time.
Is there are specific archetype you associate with Rangers? Do you prefer them as generic "scout/huntsmen" types, or as special folk blessed by nature itself? Do you associate the class with an organization or ideal to live up to?
I think rangers are themed fighters. They get bonus feats like the fighter, hp almost like the fighter, martial weapon proficiency like the fighter. They are in every way a fighter but with a distinct theme and more abilities. (at least in third).
Quote from: Libertad;575045The 1st Edition Ranger was a neat concept; they were wilderness warriors and expert scouts, but they were implied to be part of something greater. Their restriction on behavior "any Good" alignment gave them a "heroic defender" vibe, like an organization of elite soldiers dedicated to defending their homelands against the monstrous threats of the savage realms. They also gained followers of a similar bent, from fellow rangers to fantastic beasts.
The 2nd and 3rd Edition Edition Rangers retained many of the features of its earlier counterpart, although the inclusion of kits allowed variant archetypes (such as the Amazon warrior). They also lost their "extra damage to giants/humanoids" and could specialize in other monsters. The 3rd Edition Ranger went even further and dropped alignment restrictions, allowing evil rangers for the first time.
Is there are specific archetype you associate with Rangers? Do you prefer them as generic "scout/huntsmen" types, or as special folk blessed by nature itself? Do you associate the class with an organization or ideal to live up to?
I always envisioned the baseline 'start picking up mah drood spells' type as specifically devoted to Ehlonna/Meilikei/goddess of wildlife/nature. In 2e if you wanted to be someone more along the bounty-hunter type I steered people towards the Scout rogue kit, and in 3e I've allowed people to take the assassin spell list instead of the ranger list if they wanted to be the same kind of deal, or even replaced the spell-slingin ranger with the ranger from Iron Kingdoms. But I think that the base class per the phb is definitely dedicated to some kind of vaguely good nature god, hence the divine spells.
I vote that we should ban you because you pose fun questions. For me? No Drizzt double weapon bullshit. I want something akin to 1e or ACKS. A hunter. A monster hunter, a bounty hunter with purpose that money or personal revenge has no meaning. That's a Witch Hunter or Avenger.
It also sucks because Mguy and myself agree again!!!
I generally prefer the elite monster hunter/wilderness warrior--essentially the Ranger in Tolkien come of much like this, I enjoy them having a few spells, and not being limited to "Archer" or "Dual Weapon Guy."
They're are a great number of possible ways to make any archetypical class. In my mind, that is what kits, and feats were meant to do, yet neither plan really helped you make the character you wanted better when the class "special abilities" often seemed to only be worthwhile if you took features that aided what you already had.
Class Build Elements I think a ranger should have:
Tracking
Wilderness Lore
Animal Empathy/Friendship as possible.
Decent Fighting
Lighter Armor than standard warriors
Bonus against certain chosen "monsters"
Very narrow field of spells, preferably tied to their other abilities: Animals/Nature Lore/Monster Fighting.
The Ranger is my favourite D&D class, always has been. Wilderness warrior/skirmisher/fantasy special forces. My archetypes are the pioneers of old, Davy Crockett, Kit Carson, Robert Rogers and so on.
The best incarnation of this is the 4th edition Essentials Scout or Hunter, depending on whether you want a melee or ranged combatant. Unlike the Core Ranger, the Essentials versions also add a load of actually relevant stuff in the form of Knacks (and some of the stances, which work out of combat). You make the party better at navigating the outdoors, rather than just being some dude with a few skills who fights with a bow/two weapons. We've got one of each in our 4e game, and they're both brilliant.
Thankfully they've dropped all the stupid animal companion nonsense and having some largely useless minor magic as fixed, mandatory things. Along with the pointless "bigot bonus" of old (though one of the Aspects gives a bonus to defenses and damage against Large or bigger creatures).
The ranger is just a fighter that lives in the wilderness.
They should have armour restrictions and in return get a set of bonuses or NWPs that relate to the wilderness. Survival, Tracking, Animal handling, Herbalism, etc. They should not get spells by default spells should be available to them to learn just liek they shoudl be available to fighters if they are willing to devote vast study to it and thus take a drop in their core martial progression. I don't think this needs to be done via multiclassing but by having a core mechanism that allows crosss skilling between classes at a cost.
They should probably focus on ranged combat as its far better for wilderness survival. Two weapons style make no sense for rangers and is much more fitting for gladiators, dualists and specialist figthers.
Aragorn is a ranger he has no spells. He has some herbalism.
Davy Crocket maybe a ranger.
Hawkeye is a ranger.
There are mainly three character types which have been simulated by the Ranger class, with different degrees of success:
- Robin Hood: guy who is at home in the forest, and is a master bowman;
- Aragorn: guy who is at home in the forest, has minor mystical abilities, and is a good swordsman who fights evil;
- Drizzt: the two weapon fighter guy, included on the basis of an obscure 1e AD&D sub-rule which gave drow two-handed fighting, and came back to influence the design of the core class.
The 1e Ranger does a decent job with Aragorn, 2e does a decent job with Drizzt, 3.0's Ranger is a rather
blah class (although I had a great forester/lumberjack-themed ranger character in our current 3e game, who unfortunately got killed during the second session), and 3.5 has kinda-sorta acceptable options for both Robin Hood and Drizzt. I think the 1e version is the strongest idea, even if it isn't pure Aragorn, while a good Archer class has never been included in the core.
There is a murky territory where Rangers may overlap Barbarians, with their common theme of self-sufficiency and living off of the land. Since D&D Barbarians somehow become either berserkers who attack foes in a primal rage, or magic-hating dumbasses, a lot of barbarian/settler populations are better modelled with Rangers of some sort.
I see Rangers as hunters and scouts.
Quote from: jibbajibba;575096They should probably focus on ranged combat as its far better for wilderness survival. Two weapons style make no sense for rangers and is much more fitting for gladiators, dualists and specialist figthers.
Every time I see this canard, I feel the need to shoot it down. Through time immemorial, two hands have meant either a two-handed weapon or two weapons. Note a shield is a second weapon. If you have it, you use it. There's nothing "specialist" about it.
Davy Crockett, in popular folklore using a common "pioneer" fighting style (because as per Roger's Rules of Ranging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rogers%27_28_%22Rules_of_Ranging%22), formalising a common practise, everyone carried a knife and hatchet):
(http://ushistoryimages.com/images/david-crockett/fullsize/david-crockett-6.jpg)
(http://ushistoryimages.com/images/davy-crockett-pictures/fullsize/davy-crockett-pictures-3.jpg)
Rangers should be using two weapons. Not twin scimitars or any such nonsense, but a knife or hatchet in their off hand.
I believe 1E made two-weapon fighting available to anyone, but limited it to a dagger or hand axe as secondary weapon.
Quote from: Skywalker;575105I see Rangers as hunters and scouts.
I agree. Since words are stupid unless you get to the point. Yep he covered it nicely. What? I said that already in my original post? Really?
My image of rangers was set by Warcraft II (the elven ranger), and Magic: the Gathering before I encountered D&D. Right around that time I was also being influenced by Everquest, so it basically boiled down to:
- Archery
- Wilderness lore
- Half-druid, half-fighter
Since then two other features have risen in my esteem as defining elements of the ranger:
- Having a badass pet
- Favored enemy (but only when done right and chosen well)
I like the Dude with a sword fighting evil in wilderness option. That is, Aragorn.
I like the hunter/scout types, and I like the elite guardians of civilization vs. the encroaching Chaos in the wilds (interestingly, the Brazilian Portuguese translation of LotR translates "ranger" as guardião, "guardian" or "warden"4). The latter does strike me as more interesting and more in keeping with old school D&D's quasi-Howardian recurring theme of civilization/Law vs. barbarism/Chaos.
In addition to AD&D 1e, Swords & Wizardry Complete features a very Aragornesque ranger. Castles & Crusades does a great job too. I find these specific takes on the Ranger very evocative and I dig the Tolkienesque flavor they bring to the class.
But if you're having AD&D-like "fiddly" classes (i.e. anything more complex than Fighter, Cleric, Magic-User, Thief), it's nice to have a hunter/scout class for all these sneaky wood elf bowmen and wanderers at the edge of the world.
When I first read about Rangers in 1E they looked like a cross between the Dunedain of Tolkien and a Robin Hood style woodland warrior.
Since I read the original Ranger write up I view the 1e Ranger is a port of the Dunedain into D&D.
Since descendents of a lost good-aligned Atlantis/Numenor realm who have fallen on hard times and driven to live in the Wilderness as protectors of civilization is rather specific trope, I adopted a fantasy version of the Babylon 5 take on Rangers.
Rangers are an organization of good-aligned individuals dedicated to the unity of the races (humans and demi-humans basically) against depredations of the humanoids (orcs, etc). Sponsored by the Min.. err elves they teach wilderness skills and knowledge of arcane and druidic magic.
I used this in my LARP and a lot of the players really liked and became PC Rangers. Something I wasn't expecting.
I also used this in Blackmarsh as well.
I see rangers as martial druids in the same way as I see paladins as martial clerics.
I acknowledge that I'm an oddball...
I see Rangers as a hunter, wilderness expert flavored warrior.
Don't think they should have spells. (1E ranger had Mage spells..say what?)
Druidic spells make some sense, but I still don't like spell casting Rangers.
Drizzt should not have been a Ranger.
The writer kind of shoehorned the poor dark elf warrior into training with a blind ranger for no reason.
I actually like Salvatores books, but Drizzt was a perfectly good fighter character. Not a Ranger.
Quote from: jibbajibba;575096The ranger is just a fighter that lives in the wilderness.
They should have armour restrictions and in return get a set of bonuses or NWPs that relate to the wilderness. Survival, Tracking, Animal handling, Herbalism, etc. They should not get spells by default spells should be available to them to learn just liek they shoudl be available to fighters if they are willing to devote vast study to it and thus take a drop in their core martial progression. I don't think this needs to be done via multiclassing but by having a core mechanism that allows crosss skilling between classes at a cost.
They should probably focus on ranged combat as its far better for wilderness survival. Two weapons style make no sense for rangers and is much more fitting for gladiators, dualists and specialist figthers.
Aragorn is a ranger he has no spells. He has some herbalism.
Davy Crocket maybe a ranger.
Hawkeye is a ranger.
No spells?
"The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds." FotR:75.
A possible use of Speak With Animals, although in Middle Earth, many races can apparently do this without spellcasting (The Dwarves in The Hobbit, Gimli at Kheled-Zaram, Legolas, etc.)
"But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them." FotR:178-9.
Speak With Animals seems an ability common to all Rangers.
"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant." FotR:233.
Aragorn examining the Morgul blade, and then healing Frodo.
"'These leaves,' he said, 'I have walked far to find; for this plant does not grow in the bare hills; but in the thickets away south of the Road I found it in the dark by the scent of the leaves." FotR:233.
Could (or could not) be an instance of Locate Animals or Plants.
"'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; 'but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. May that virtue not wholly fail under the Shadow into which you go!" TT:319-20.
Faramir, too, seems to have some enchantments.
"'This is an evil door,' said Halbarad, 'and my death lies beyond it. I will dare to pass it nonetheless; but no horse will enter it.'" RotK:58.
Halbarad also shows the foresight displayed by Aragorn, Faramir, Aragorn's mother, etc.
"Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dunedain and their horses followed him. And indeed the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door, if their masters' hearts were steady as they walked beside them. But Arod, the horse of Rohan, refused the way, and he stood sweating and trembling in a fear that was grievious to see. Then Legolas laid his hands on his eyes and sang some words that went soft into the gloom, until he suffered himself to be led, and Legolas passed in." RotK:58-9.
Calm Animals?
"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278.
The Dunedain, as all the wise, could speak mind-to-mind, and perhaps read minds. Hence, in 1e, their ability to use all magic items related to ESP, Telepathy, Mind-Reading, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, etc.
There are also at least two instances where Aragorn wakes up out of a sound sleep, somehow sensing that something is wrong... This "sounds" like the use of an Alarm spell, to me.
"Aragorn stirred in his sleep, turned over, and sat up.
'What is it?' he whispered, springing up and coming to Frodo. 'I felt something in my sleep.'" FotR:434.
"'Ah!' said Aragorn. 'So you know about our little footpad, do you? He padded after us all through Moria and right down to Nimrodel. Since we took to boats, he has been lying on a log and paddling with hands and feet. I have tried to catch him once or twice at night; but he is slier than a fox, and slippery as a fish.'" FotR:434-5.
"Nonetheless as the night wore on Aragorn grew uneasy, tossing often in his sleep and waking. In the small hours he got up and came to Frodo, whose turn it was to watch.
'Why are you waking?' asked Frodo. 'It is not your watch.'
'I do not know,' answered Aragorn; 'but a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep. It would be well to draw your sword.'" FotR:446.
"There is mischief about. I feel it." FotR:457.
Foresight, too, is common in Tolkien:
"I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, or of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" FotR:339.
"'Farewell, Gandalf!' he cried. 'Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!'" FotR:378.
"'Alas! Aragorn my friend!' said Eomer. 'I had hoped that we should ride to war together; but if you seek the Paths of the Dead, then our parting is come, and it is little likely that we shall ever meet again under the Sun.'
'That road I will take, nonetheless,' said Aragorn. 'But I say to you, Eomer, that in battle we may yet meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor should stand between.'" RotK:51.
"'Thus we meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us,' said Aragorn. 'Did I not say so at the Hornburg?'
'So you spoke,' said Eomer, 'but hope oft deceives, and I knew not then that you were a man foresighted.'" RotK:127.
"Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father." RotK:360.
"After her death Denethor became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time." RotK:361.
"'Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage Dirhael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marry.
'"Moreover," he said, "Arathorn is a stern man of full age, and will be chieftain sooner than men look for; yet my heart forebodes that he will be shortlived."
'But Ivorwen, his wife, who was also foresighted, answered: "The more need of haste! The days are darkening before the storm and great things are to come. If these two wed now, hope may be born for our people; but if they delay, it will not come while this age lasts."
'And it happened that when Arathorn and Gilraen had been married only one year, Arador was taken by hill-trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain; and Arathorn became Chieftain of the Dunedain. The next year Gilraen bore him a son, and he was called Aragorn. But Aragorn was only two years old when Arathorn went riding against the Orcs with the sons of Elrond, and was slain by an orc-arrow that pierced his eye, and so he proved shortlived for one of his race, being but sixty years old when he fell." RotK:362.
"'In the days that followed Aragorn fell silent, and his mother perceived that some strange thing had vefallen him; and at last he yielded to her questions and told her of the meeting in the twilight of the trees." RotK:364.
"'"Then bitter will my days be, and I will walk in the wild alone," said Aragorn.
'"That will indeed be your fate," said Gilraen; but though she had in a measure the foresight of her people, she said no more to him of her foreboding, nor did she speak to any one of what her son had told her." RotK:364.
"'"I see," said Aragorn, "that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate." Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth."" RotK:365.
"'But Aragorn answered: "Alas! I cannot foresee it, and how it may come to pass is hidden from me."" RotK:367.
"'After a few years Gilraen took leave of Elrond and returned to her own people in Eriador, and she seldom saw her son again, for he spent many years in far countries. But on a time, when Aragorn had returned to the North, he came to her, and she said to him before he went:
'"this is our last meeting, Estel, my son. I am aged by care, even as one of the lesser Men; and now that it draws near I cannot face the darkness of our time that gathers upon Middle-earth. I shall leave it soon."
'Aragorn tried to comfort her, saying: "Yet there may be a light beyond the darkness; and if so, I would have you see it and be glad."
'But she answered only with this linnod:
Onen i-Estel Edain, u-chebin estel anim,*
and Aragorn went away heavy of heart. Gilraen died before the next spring." RotK:368.
"'As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years in great glory and bliss; yet at last he felt the approach of old age and knew that the span of his life-days was drawing to an end,long though it had been." RotK:368.
"'Arwen knew well what he intended and long had foreseen it; nonetheless she was overborne by her grief." RotK:369.
Rangers, as all the Wise, seem to be Mind-Readers:
(Mind-Readers)
"Frodo found that Strider was now looking at him, as if he had heard or guessed all that had been said." FotR:186.
"'No more than you can afford,' answered Strider with a slow smile, as if he guessed Frodo's thoughts." FotR:194.
"'Ponies would not help us to escape horsemen,' he said at last, thoughtfully, as if he had guessed what Frodo had in mind." FotR:210.
"And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance." FotR:405.
"'I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses,' said Aragorn. 'Will you not open your mind more clearly to me?'" TT:102.
"'Now, Smeagol!' said Frodo. 'You must trust me. I will not desert you. Answer truthfully, if you can. It will do you good not harm.' He cut the cords on Gollum's wrists and ankles and raised him to his feet.
'Come hither!' said Faramir. 'Look at me! Do you know the name of this place? Have you been here before?'
Slowly Gollum raised his eyes and looked unwillingly into Faramir's. All light went out of them, and they stared bleak and pale for a moment into the clear unwavering eyes of the man of Gondor. There was a still silence. Then Gollum dropped his head and shrank down, until he was squatting on the floor, shivering. 'We doesn't know and we doesn't want to know,' he whimpered. 'Never came here; never come again.'
'There are locked doors and closed windows in your mind, and dark rooms behind them,' said Faramir. 'But in this I judge that you speak the truth.'" TT:314.
"'Do you know the name of that high path?' said Faramir.
'No,' said Frodo.
'It is called Cirith Ungol.' Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. 'Is not that its name?' said Faramir turning to him.
'No!' said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him. 'Yes, yes, we heard that name once.'" TT:316.
"But I do not think you are holden to go to Cirith Ungol, of which he has told you less than he knows. That much I perceive clearly in his mind." TT:317.
"'It is a hard doom and hopeless errand,' said Faramir. 'But at the least, remember my warning: beware of this guide, Smeagol. He has done murder before now. I read it in him'" TT:318.
"And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind." RotK:26.
"'He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.'" RotK:28.
"'Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely.'
He drew a deep breath. 'It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than what you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not til now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur [or] the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his greatest designs the heir of Isildur and the sword are revealed; for I showed the blade reforged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.'" RotK:52.
"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278.
For me rangers have always been hunters and scouts. Stealth, tracking, survival (making shelters, finding food, etc) and ranged combat are what the ranger focuses on.
I do not like the dual weapon as a core ranger trait. Yes, I know Davy Crockett has a picture using a knife and an axe. Well, so did pretty much everyone else in those scenarios, so I don't think it should be a special benefit that a ranger gets over everyone else.
I've also been a fan of limiting rangers to small weapons (GASP!). Since their primary attributes are stealth and hunting, carrying around a long sword hinders that. Anyone who has strapped on a sword and tried to move quickly and silently through thick undergrowth knows what I'm talking about. Short swords, knives, and hatchets are the melee weapons of choice.
And I never liked Rangers getting magic. My AD&D homebrew ranger class is more of a thief/fighter hybrid than a fighter/druid hybrid.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;575292I do not like the dual weapon as a core ranger trait. Yes, I know Davy Crockett has a picture using a knife and an axe. Well, so did pretty much everyone else in those scenarios, so I don't think it should be a special benefit that a ranger gets over everyone else.
My brother owns the 1e books so I can't say about it (and I haven't bought the luscious new 1e reprints). But in 2e Ranger must have studded leather or lighter armor to dual weapon w/o penalty. Otherwise, if his armor is heavier he dual wields like everyone else (Warrior or Rogue archetype only in PHB) with a -2/-4. That and the ranger has to have one weapon smaller than the other, just like everyone else who can dual wield.
Warriors and Rogues can dual wield weapons too, they just get the -2/-4 penalty. However Dex reaction adjustment can modify away those penalties (never modify it to + from Dex alone however). Throw in Complete: Fighter, and who wouldn't? great fun stuff in there!, with its fighting styles and ambidexterity and you can wipe those penalties clean away.
Overall that's not a problematic issue for me about rangers. Even a bit thematic historically. As a warrior they trade off better AC for an extra small weapon attack w/o penalty. Unless it's a magic dagger, or awesome STR dmg bonus, that extra 1d4 isn't really overwhelming IMO.
An extra 1d4+4 or so (magic + str)? Not that big of a deal. But the Drizzt style with powerful dual swords that too many people started emulating? Not a ranger at all, IMO.
Of course, YMMV.
Quote from: Kiero;575109Every time I see this canard, I feel the need to shoot it down. Through time immemorial, two hands have meant either a two-handed weapon or two weapons. Note a shield is a second weapon. If you have it, you use it. There's nothing "specialist" about it.
Rangers should be using two weapons. Not twin scimitars or any such nonsense, but a knife or hatchet in their off hand.
You have a good point; I concede. Although if you wish to simulate this fighting style, it may be better to let the character alternate between attacking with one of the two weapons, while using the other defensively like a shield. Maybe also granting an extra attack with it if the attacking beast goes on full attack.
The dungeon delver said it best.
A ranger is this:
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IZdjFHmQ5VQ/hqdefault.jpg)
Not this:
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/gallery/2002/10/29/aragorn4.jpg)
And certainly not this:
(http://tobiasmastgrave.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/112926-136833-drizzt-do-urden_large.jpg)
Quote from: JRR;575286No spells?
"The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds." FotR:75.
A possible use of Speak With Animals, although in Middle Earth, many races can apparently do this without spellcasting (The Dwarves in The Hobbit, Gimli at Kheled-Zaram, Legolas, etc.)
"But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them." FotR:178-9.
Speak With Animals seems an ability common to all Rangers.
"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant." FotR:233.
Aragorn examining the Morgul blade, and then healing Frodo.
"'These leaves,' he said, 'I have walked far to find; for this plant does not grow in the bare hills; but in the thickets away south of the Road I found it in the dark by the scent of the leaves." FotR:233.
Could (or could not) be an instance of Locate Animals or Plants.
"'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; 'but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. May that virtue not wholly fail under the Shadow into which you go!" TT:319-20.
Faramir, too, seems to have some enchantments.
"'This is an evil door,' said Halbarad, 'and my death lies beyond it. I will dare to pass it nonetheless; but no horse will enter it.'" RotK:58.
Halbarad also shows the foresight displayed by Aragorn, Faramir, Aragorn's mother, etc.
"Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dunedain and their horses followed him. And indeed the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door, if their masters' hearts were steady as they walked beside them. But Arod, the horse of Rohan, refused the way, and he stood sweating and trembling in a fear that was grievious to see. Then Legolas laid his hands on his eyes and sang some words that went soft into the gloom, until he suffered himself to be led, and Legolas passed in." RotK:58-9.
Calm Animals?
"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278.
The Dunedain, as all the wise, could speak mind-to-mind, and perhaps read minds. Hence, in 1e, their ability to use all magic items related to ESP, Telepathy, Mind-Reading, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, etc.
There are also at least two instances where Aragorn wakes up out of a sound sleep, somehow sensing that something is wrong... This "sounds" like the use of an Alarm spell, to me.
"Aragorn stirred in his sleep, turned over, and sat up.
'What is it?' he whispered, springing up and coming to Frodo. 'I felt something in my sleep.'" FotR:434.
"'Ah!' said Aragorn. 'So you know about our little footpad, do you? He padded after us all through Moria and right down to Nimrodel. Since we took to boats, he has been lying on a log and paddling with hands and feet. I have tried to catch him once or twice at night; but he is slier than a fox, and slippery as a fish.'" FotR:434-5.
"Nonetheless as the night wore on Aragorn grew uneasy, tossing often in his sleep and waking. In the small hours he got up and came to Frodo, whose turn it was to watch.
'Why are you waking?' asked Frodo. 'It is not your watch.'
'I do not know,' answered Aragorn; 'but a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep. It would be well to draw your sword.'" FotR:446.
"There is mischief about. I feel it." FotR:457.
Foresight, too, is common in Tolkien:
"I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, or of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" FotR:339.
"'Farewell, Gandalf!' he cried. 'Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!'" FotR:378.
"'Alas! Aragorn my friend!' said Eomer. 'I had hoped that we should ride to war together; but if you seek the Paths of the Dead, then our parting is come, and it is little likely that we shall ever meet again under the Sun.'
'That road I will take, nonetheless,' said Aragorn. 'But I say to you, Eomer, that in battle we may yet meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor should stand between.'" RotK:51.
"'Thus we meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us,' said Aragorn. 'Did I not say so at the Hornburg?'
'So you spoke,' said Eomer, 'but hope oft deceives, and I knew not then that you were a man foresighted.'" RotK:127.
"Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father." RotK:360.
"After her death Denethor became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time." RotK:361.
"'Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage Dirhael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marry.
'"Moreover," he said, "Arathorn is a stern man of full age, and will be chieftain sooner than men look for; yet my heart forebodes that he will be shortlived."
'But Ivorwen, his wife, who was also foresighted, answered: "The more need of haste! The days are darkening before the storm and great things are to come. If these two wed now, hope may be born for our people; but if they delay, it will not come while this age lasts."
'And it happened that when Arathorn and Gilraen had been married only one year, Arador was taken by hill-trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain; and Arathorn became Chieftain of the Dunedain. The next year Gilraen bore him a son, and he was called Aragorn. But Aragorn was only two years old when Arathorn went riding against the Orcs with the sons of Elrond, and was slain by an orc-arrow that pierced his eye, and so he proved shortlived for one of his race, being but sixty years old when he fell." RotK:362.
"'In the days that followed Aragorn fell silent, and his mother perceived that some strange thing had vefallen him; and at last he yielded to her questions and told her of the meeting in the twilight of the trees." RotK:364.
"'"Then bitter will my days be, and I will walk in the wild alone," said Aragorn.
'"That will indeed be your fate," said Gilraen; but though she had in a measure the foresight of her people, she said no more to him of her foreboding, nor did she speak to any one of what her son had told her." RotK:364.
"'"I see," said Aragorn, "that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate." Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth."" RotK:365.
"'But Aragorn answered: "Alas! I cannot foresee it, and how it may come to pass is hidden from me."" RotK:367.
"'After a few years Gilraen took leave of Elrond and returned to her own people in Eriador, and she seldom saw her son again, for he spent many years in far countries. But on a time, when Aragorn had returned to the North, he came to her, and she said to him before he went:
'"this is our last meeting, Estel, my son. I am aged by care, even as one of the lesser Men; and now that it draws near I cannot face the darkness of our time that gathers upon Middle-earth. I shall leave it soon."
'Aragorn tried to comfort her, saying: "Yet there may be a light beyond the darkness; and if so, I would have you see it and be glad."
'But she answered only with this linnod:
Onen i-Estel Edain, u-chebin estel anim,*
and Aragorn went away heavy of heart. Gilraen died before the next spring." RotK:368.
"'As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years in great glory and bliss; yet at last he felt the approach of old age and knew that the span of his life-days was drawing to an end,long though it had been." RotK:368.
"'Arwen knew well what he intended and long had foreseen it; nonetheless she was overborne by her grief." RotK:369.
Rangers, as all the Wise, seem to be Mind-Readers:
(Mind-Readers)
"Frodo found that Strider was now looking at him, as if he had heard or guessed all that had been said." FotR:186.
"'No more than you can afford,' answered Strider with a slow smile, as if he guessed Frodo's thoughts." FotR:194.
"'Ponies would not help us to escape horsemen,' he said at last, thoughtfully, as if he had guessed what Frodo had in mind." FotR:210.
"And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance." FotR:405.
"'I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses,' said Aragorn. 'Will you not open your mind more clearly to me?'" TT:102.
"'Now, Smeagol!' said Frodo. 'You must trust me. I will not desert you. Answer truthfully, if you can. It will do you good not harm.' He cut the cords on Gollum's wrists and ankles and raised him to his feet.
'Come hither!' said Faramir. 'Look at me! Do you know the name of this place? Have you been here before?'
Slowly Gollum raised his eyes and looked unwillingly into Faramir's. All light went out of them, and they stared bleak and pale for a moment into the clear unwavering eyes of the man of Gondor. There was a still silence. Then Gollum dropped his head and shrank down, until he was squatting on the floor, shivering. 'We doesn't know and we doesn't want to know,' he whimpered. 'Never came here; never come again.'
'There are locked doors and closed windows in your mind, and dark rooms behind them,' said Faramir. 'But in this I judge that you speak the truth.'" TT:314.
"'Do you know the name of that high path?' said Faramir.
'No,' said Frodo.
'It is called Cirith Ungol.' Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. 'Is not that its name?' said Faramir turning to him.
'No!' said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him. 'Yes, yes, we heard that name once.'" TT:316.
"But I do not think you are holden to go to Cirith Ungol, of which he has told you less than he knows. That much I perceive clearly in his mind." TT:317.
"'It is a hard doom and hopeless errand,' said Faramir. 'But at the least, remember my warning: beware of this guide, Smeagol. He has done murder before now. I read it in him'" TT:318.
"And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind." RotK:26.
"'He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.'" RotK:28.
"'Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely.'
He drew a deep breath. 'It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than what you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not til now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur [or] the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his greatest designs the heir of Isildur and the sword are revealed; for I showed the blade reforged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.'" RotK:52.
"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278.
If the 1E Ranger is based on Aragorn, why did they get Wizard spells instead of druid?
Christ on a bike, Tolkein's writing is dull.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;575330An extra 1d4+4 or so (magic + str)? Not that big of a deal. But the Drizzt style with powerful dual swords that too many people started emulating? Not a ranger at all, IMO.
Of course, YMMV.
I think emotional scarring of Mary Sues goes a long way. I never experienced the hell of Drizzt or the cast of Dragonlance myself, so that probably colors my perspective. However, I will agree Mary Sues are hugely annoying and do tarnish many an archetype to this day. Why, I can't stomach the thought of playing Bastet (WoD) or Shosuro actress (L5R) without my turning a bit at the thought of 'lesbian stripper ninja'.
(... But means one day I'm going to have to play each of those characters to get over myself. I just don't want to do it any time soon.)
Aragorn was a fighter, not a ranger, in D&D terms. After all, he became king, which rangers do not do. The Appendix listed a lot more references than just LoTR
Quote from: Benoist;575345The dungeon delver said it best.
A ranger is this:
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IZdjFHmQ5VQ/hqdefault.jpg)
Not this:
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/gallery/2002/10/29/aragorn4.jpg)
And certainly not this:
(http://tobiasmastgrave.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/112926-136833-drizzt-do-urden_large.jpg)
What's that Drow doing? did he murder a Ranger and take his stuff?
For the love of God, I know I may own d20 Ultramodern Firearms, but I have no interest in busting it out whenever I want to play D&D fantasy Middle Ages...
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Melan;575332You have a good point; I concede. Although if you wish to simulate this fighting style, it may be better to let the character alternate between attacking with one of the two weapons, while using the other defensively like a shield. Maybe also granting an extra attack with it if the attacking beast goes on full attack.
You've pretty much said it right there. By choosing an off-hand weapon, you forgo the additional damage of a two-handed weapon, and the defensive advantage of a shield.
It's the halfway house between the two; more damage potential than with a shield (though bearing in mind a shield is a handy weapon in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing) and better defensive potential than a two-handed weapon.
Not to defend dual wield too much, as I would be upset too if I was babysat by a Mary Sue, but Melan you can use your off-hand weapon defensively already. At least in 2e the GM may allow Parry (not Full Parry) where you use an attack of yours to deflect an oncoming attack. So Kiero is right pointing out it is a halfway between shield and one-hand/two-hand wield.
You declare a parry before initiative, and your parry will default to the first attack you receive (unless you specify delaying for a target attacker). If they hit, you roll a "contesting" to-hit back -- against their AC -- and if successful you deflect the attack. A bit complicated to explain, but pretty easy in practice. (Only additional info is Parry with a shield this way is at +2.)
The nice thing about that is it gives Rogue characters a bit of optional defense, since their archetype cannot use shields. And it's a style that switches up to offense whichever round the player likes as well. Don't know if 1e or 3e has it, but it's a pretty simple concept to houserule in.
Ranger: Aragorn, the Character Class.
Quote from: JRR;575286No spells?
You know, I'm a big fan of the concept that magic is more common in Middle Earth than normally thought by many- if only in earlier times.
But I'm afraid I'm not convinced by your impressive list of quotes that anything other than flowerly description typical of many types of writing was at work. A passage claiming "And he glared with eyes aflame at me" doesn't normally mean that the guys eyes were actually on fire.
I'm not going to go point by point, but I think you're reaching here for the most part, and what's left hardly means that a LotR Ranger should have spells. I know that I run a Middle Earth campaign, and it has Rangers in it. And they can duplicate every scene you listed- and they don't have a Spell Point to their name.
Quote from: JRR;575286No spells?
"The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds." FotR:75.
"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278.
So what you have here is a bunch of rumours from the folks of Bree, who are backwards thinking yokels and a load of vague powers that aragorn may have becuase he is Dunedin. I mean you could argue that the Dunedin are just half elves and that is why they live for 250 + years and can do all that elf shit. However in the books he rarely does any real elf shit and Legolas can see further, hear better, walk on snow without leaving footprints, never get cold, etc etc
Really Aragorn does nothing magical that is not linked to his bloodline. He doesn't talk to animals, he doesn't hide the party on Weathertop from the 9 and he doesn't use magic to defeat any opponents. Maybe he's just a 5th level ranger. The 1e ranger interestingly can use scrying devices because Aragorn can use Palantir becuase he is the rightful king of gondor. Doesn't really make much sense does it.
Quote from: Kiero;575109Every time I see this canard, I feel the need to shoot it down. Through time immemorial, two hands have meant either a two-handed weapon or two weapons. Note a shield is a second weapon. If you have it, you use it. There's nothing "specialist" about it.
Davy Crockett, in popular folklore using a common "pioneer" fighting style (because as per Roger's Rules of Ranging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rogers%27_28_%22Rules_of_Ranging%22), formalising a common practise, everyone carried a knife and hatchet):
Rangers should be using two weapons. Not twin scimitars or any such nonsense, but a knife or hatchet in their off hand.
I believe 1E made two-weapon fighting available to anyone, but limited it to a dagger or hand axe as secondary weapon.
None of that means Rangers should get dual weild specialisation. you are just making the case for fighters in general to have access to dual wield.
In reality if you have personally ever wandered through a forest carrying a sword, as I have done on several larps you will appreciate having a free hand to stop branches and so on smacking you in the face. Just in the same way that you realise a short sort is more practical in a forest than a rapier and a hacket is more practical than both.
Quote from: jibbajibba;575677None of that means Rangers should get dual weild specialisation. you are just making the case for fighters in general to have access to dual wield.
In reality if you have personally ever wandered through a forest carrying a sword, as I have done on several larps you will appreciate having a free hand to stop branches and so on smacking you in the face. Just in the same way that you realise a short sort is more practical in a forest than a rapier and a hacket is more practical than both.
Firstly, I was disputing your notion that two-weapon fighting is "specialist" - which it isn't. So yes every warrior-type (and probably a few others, like rogue-types) should have access to it.
Secondly, I don't disagree with you that long weapons are inappropriate for wandering around forests. It's why I ended up having a lengthy argument on this issue on TBP because some loon thought a spear was an ideal weapon for a (forest-based) Ranger. As I already said, as far as I'm concerned, the archetypal load-out for a Ranger is a hachet and big knife. Both are useful outdoor tools doubling up as weapons.
Thirdly, the forest isn't the only terrain from which you get Rangers. Which is why we should be less restrictive on weapons than only considering what works with lots of trees and scrub around. A desert Ranger might dual wield scimitar and knife, for example.
The highly adaptable warrior.
Through sense of duty or circumstance, he protects civilization by being (and fighting) well outside of it.
The AD&D 1E ranger really is the "Aragorn class". Not a fan. The standard 'rpg ranger' I dig, though... unless it's the silly tree-hugger crap.
Quote from: Kiero;575681Firstly, I was disputing your notion that two-weapon fighting is "specialist" - which it isn't. So yes every warrior-type (and probably a few others, like rogue-types) should have access to it.
Secondly, I don't disagree with you that long weapons are inappropriate for wandering around forests. It's why I ended up having a lengthy argument on this issue on TBP because some loon thought a spear was an ideal weapon for a (forest-based) Ranger. As I already said, as far as I'm concerned, the archetypal load-out for a Ranger is a hachet and big knife. Both are useful outdoor tools doubling up as weapons.
Thirdly, the forest isn't the only terrain from which you get Rangers. Which is why we should be less restrictive on weapons than only considering what works with lots of trees and scrub around. A desert Ranger might dual wield scimitar and knife, for example.
Cool I think we are more in agreement that not and a good point about forests. A desert bedouin ranger is a totally acceptable class as well as are numerous others.
A spear is good when you get charged by a boar though :)
Quote from: jibbajibba;575696Cool I think we are more in agreement that not and a good point about forests. A desert bedouin ranger is a totally acceptable class as well as are numerous others.
Agreed. Said bedouin-styled Ranger would of course only be carrying
one scimitar/shashmir. :)
Quote from: jibbajibba;575696A spear is good when you get charged by a boar though :)
Though given how inconvenient it is, that's likely to be something you expressly carry for hunting boar. Not your mainstay that you keep around all the time.
I've always envisioned the Ranger as a wilderness warrior.
I looked at Tolkien's Rangers as what would be considered elite operatives today, only that they are of a superior race (Dunedain) compared to the more "common men" of the North. The Faramir led Rangers didn't have that advantage, but they were some of the elite forces that Gondor had.
That said, the concept of animal companions and a grove to protect simply seemed out of touch from what the Ranger was originally designed to be.
(For the record, I'm not even gonna touch any of the implications of Dunedain being superior over the other human races. I've always looked at it as an offshoot of the mentality of Colonialism creeping into Tolkien's writing.)
Quote from: jibbajibba;575696A spear is good when you get charged by a boar though :)
Or a minotaur! :D
This Sunday, we were exploring a forest plagued by some sort of spreading "wrongness", and found the lair of a minotaur possessed by an evil ruby necklace. Since we were all 2nd level, and we had barely survived a previous encounter with a displacer beast (my character was at -8 Hp at one point), facing something even badder, and with a devastating charge attack, was not something we wanted to do without serious reinforcements.
On my suggestion, we returned to town, and two of us bought glaives (I think it was glaives, the Hungarian translation of the 3e rulebook is pretty sloppy). We ended up luring the minotaur into an ambush, and as it charged into the readied weapons when the sorceress blinded it for a moment with a burst of light, I managed to hit it for 12 points, automatically doubled due to the polearm rules (could have even critted for *6 if I was luckier...). That did not mean the melee was over, but it
did mean my PC was (barely) alive at the end of the confrontation, and I ended up with a minotaur trophy instead of the other way round. :cool:
So yeah, invest in polearms, but don't haul it with you all the time. I am planning to use my mule for that purpose, once it recovers from the wounds it sustained from the displacer beast.
Quote from: Melan;575710Or a minotaur! :D
This Sunday, we were exploring a forest plagued by some sort of spreading "wrongness", and found the lair of a minotaur possessed by an evil ruby necklace. Since we were all 2nd level, and we had barely survived a previous encounter with a displacer beast (my character was at -8 Hp at one point), facing something even badder, and with a devastating charge attack, was not something we wanted to do without serious reinforcements.
On my suggestion, we returned to town, and two of us bought glaives (I think it was glaives, the Hungarian translation of the 3e rulebook is pretty sloppy). We ended up luring the minotaur into an ambush, and as it charged into the readied weapons when the sorceress blinded it for a moment with a burst of light, I managed to hit it for 12 points, automatically doubled due to the polearm rules (could have even critted for *6 if I was luckier...). That did not mean the melee was over, but it did mean my PC was (barely) alive at the end of the confrontation, and I ended up with a minotaur trophy instead of the other way round. :cool:
So yeah, invest in polearms, but don't haul it with you all the time. I am planning to use my mule for that purpose, once it recovers from the wounds it sustained from the displacer beast.
I thought a glaive was more like a scimitar on a stick so not ideal to set to recieve a charge but well played sir.
Quote from: Bill;575372If the 1E Ranger is based on Aragorn, why did they get Wizard spells instead of druid?
Maybe its because Aragorn was mostly raised and tutored by elves. I think the wizard spells may come from the notion that Rangers are part of an advanced society in exile.
Druid spells make much better sense, especially if you look before LoTR at characters from Silmarillion. I forget his name (one of the 'close names' hurin, turin, huor, tuor?) but there were other humans in exile that lived more closely to nature, befriending animals (not mystically so), etc.
Just for edition clarity, Rangers in 2e do not get Two-Weapon Specialization, per se. They get something slightly better/worse. 2W Spec gives you -0/-2 and equal weapon size, regardless of armor. Rangers get -0/-0, unequal weapon size (one must be small), and armor must be studded or lighter. All warriors and rogues (fighters, paladins, rangers, thieves, bards, etc.) get access to 2W Use, but it's at -2/-4, one weapon must be small, regardless of armor.
Basically Drizzt is a Ranger who took 2W Spec to get equal weapon size -- otherwise he's an illegal build (or just a Mary Sue).
And I like the idea of a spear Ranger, it just would have to be in different terrain, like a Masai warrior on the Sahel or other great plain. Now I want an Aleut harpoon Ranger with Survival: Arctic Coast and Seamanship... Damn you all! Now where will I find such a D&D game? There'll be no igloo tavern for the part to meet up!
:rant:
Quote from: jibbajibba;575675So what you have here is a bunch of rumours from the folks of Bree, who are backwards thinking yokels and a load of vague powers that aragorn may have becuase he is Dunedin. I mean you could argue that the Dunedin are just half elves and that is why they live for 250 + years and can do all that elf shit. However in the books he rarely does any real elf shit and Legolas can see further, hear better, walk on snow without leaving footprints, never get cold, etc etc
Really Aragorn does nothing magical that is not linked to his bloodline. He doesn't talk to animals, he doesn't hide the party on Weathertop from the 9 and he doesn't use magic to defeat any opponents. Maybe he's just a 5th level ranger. The 1e ranger interestingly can use scrying devices because Aragorn can use Palantir becuase he is the rightful king of gondor. Doesn't really make much sense does it.
Yes, you can give the ranger a bajillion special abilities that are non magical to duplicate most of that. Or you can just give him spells and be done with it. And yes, you can explain away some of those quotes as metaphor, but not all.
"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant." FotR:233.
That doesn't sound like a spell? Material and vocal components.
"'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; 'but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning."
A virtue? Sounds like a spell to me. This is Faramir, not Aragorn, but if he's not a ranger, no one is.
Quote from: JRR;575773"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant." FotR:233.
That doesn't sound like a spell? Material and vocal components.
No, it sounds like a prayer that a mundane doctor might make before starting a procedure. Religious faith (or a traditional blessing) need not be a spell. It could be religious faith or a traditional blessing.
Quote from: JRR;575773"'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; 'but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning."
A virtue? Sounds like a spell to me. This is Faramir, not Aragorn, but if he's not a ranger, no one is.
Again you're taking things too literally.
If I were to offer you a clover, a rabbit foot, or a cross to aid you in your journey there would be no magic involved. Just a hopeful belief. Such is the nature of good luck charms.
It's a fucking fantasy game dudes. And D&D was inspired by a lot more than LoTR. You guys are reading into this waaaaay too much.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;575786It's a fucking fantasy game dudes. And D&D was inspired by a lot more than LoTR. You guys are reading into this waaaaay too much.
Yes, but the ranger wasn't.
I rather prefer the children's fantasy Ranger's Apprentice concept: rangers are the king's border scouts, in a land where "border" is synonymous with "heavily forested wilderness". Self-sufficient, autonomous but beholden to a larger authority, combination scout/commando/warden.
In settings as thoroughly gonzo and magic-soaked as D&D's implied, I think there's plenty of reason to give rangers some simple wise-working, although I'd be inclined to require it be in the form of herbalism and enchantments of natural objects. Forging a suit of Plate +1? No. Carving some arrows +1? Definitely.
Quote from: JRR;575773Yes, you can give the ranger a bajillion special abilities that are non magical to duplicate most of that. Or you can just give him spells and be done with it. And yes, you can explain away some of those quotes as metaphor, but not all.
"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant." FotR:233.
That doesn't sound like a spell? Material and vocal components.
no a prayer or a thanks to the gods for providing the herb (which is he same thing) and spells in LotR don't have MVS components you are conflating D&D with LotR when its not relevant.
Quote"'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; 'but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning."
A virtue? Sounds like a spell to me. This is Faramir, not Aragorn, but if he's not a ranger, no one is.
Maybe a charm, but this was done by the woodwrights of gondor ? and not the rangers.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;575786It's a fucking fantasy game dudes. And D&D was inspired by a lot more than LoTR. You guys are reading into this waaaaay too much.
What good is the internet if you can't read way too much into everything? And massively overreact to any tiny detail?
Your nipples are distracting...
I think some of JRR's quotes imply ESP-like abilities, but that could be a Numenorian racial thing (even for Faramir) rather than a Ranger thing, which would make a lot more sense.
It wouldn't follow for me that Faramir could take a random lad and teach him to 'read minds' as part of a skillset.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;575887Your nipples are distracting...
I'm sure we can tell Liz Phair that later...
Quote from: flyerfan1991;575978I'm sure we can tell Liz Phair that later...
You mean people AREN'T their avatars?!
I was quite getting used to being Phoebe Cates...
Quote from: Sacrosanct;575982You mean people AREN'T their avatars?!
I was quite getting used to being Phoebe Cates...
Well, that explains a lot....
Quote from: Sacrosanct;575982You mean people AREN'T their avatars?!
I'm rotting from the inside out.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;575982You mean people AREN'T their avatars?!
I was quite getting used to being Phoebe Cates...
Damn...I really would not mind being a 9 foot tall green troll....well...until the swat teams put me down anyway.
Actually...there would be worse things than being Phoebe Cates...
Quote from: Bill;576082Damn...I really would not mind being a 9 foot tall green troll....well...until the swat teams put me down anyway.
If nothing else, you
would be obvious....
Quote from: Bill;576082Damn...I really would not mind being a 9 foot tall green troll....well...until the swat teams put me down anyway.
Actually...there would be worse things than being Phoebe Cates...
I've got a game about that, someday I'll finish it, though it is a side project. Fantasy police procedural+SWAT+D&Dish universe run rampant.
Quote from: Silverlion;576231I've got a game about that, someday I'll finish it, though it is a side project. Fantasy police procedural+SWAT+D&Dish universe run rampant.
Does it include Phoebe Cates? Because really, that's all that matters.
Oh, and Shadowrun beat you to it. Just run Lone Star characters.
Quote from: gleichman;576238Does it include Phoebe Cates? Because really, that's all that matters.
Oh, and Shadowrun beat you to it. Just run Lone Star characters.
Not yet. Maybe I'll make a Halfling version of her....
Quote from: jibbajibba;575096The ranger is just a fighter that lives in the wilderness.
They should have armour restrictions and in return get a set of bonuses or NWPs that relate to the wilderness. Survival, Tracking, Animal handling, Herbalism, etc. They should not get spells by default spells should be available to them to learn just liek they shoudl be available to fighters if they are willing to devote vast study to it and thus take a drop in their core martial progression. I don't think this needs to be done via multiclassing but by having a core mechanism that allows crosss skilling between classes at a cost.
They should probably focus on ranged combat as its far better for wilderness survival. Two weapons style make no sense for rangers and is much more fitting for gladiators, dualists and specialist figthers.
Aragorn is a ranger he has no spells. He has some herbalism.
Davy Crocket maybe a ranger.
Hawkeye is a ranger.
Exactly!
The druid spells given to rangers in D&D are meant to simulate the skills and traits that one might expect from a wilderness hero: first aid, understanding animals, having a wild animal for a pet, finding food/water, treating snakebites, etc.
The magic-user spells were meant to let PCs be like Aragorn: reading crystal balls and magical runes, etc.
Personally, I think rangers would work better as a fighter kit, just as paladins would work better as a cleric kit.
Quote from: JRR;575286bullshit snipped
You know LoTR by rote. Aren't you special?:rolleyes:
Quote from: Bill;575198I see Rangers as a hunter, wilderness expert flavored warrior.
Don't think they should have spells. (1E ranger had Mage spells..say what?)
Druidic spells make some sense, but I still don't like spell casting Rangers.
Drizzt should not have been a Ranger.
The writer kind of shoehorned the poor dark elf warrior into training with a blind ranger for no reason.
I actually like Salvatores books, but Drizzt was a perfectly good fighter character. Not a Ranger.
So you know the character better than the guy who wrote the book? Get da fuck outta here!
I don't have a problem with the AD&D 1e ranger, but I have to admit its not my preference of how to present the class. I've never thought the addition of magic stuff made much sense.
So in Arrows of Indra, for example, you have the Scout (a fighter subclass), which is basically the "Ranger" of that game; and has no magical abilities.
RPGPundit
I see them as a one- or two-level dip to give my fighters some useful wilderness, survival, and tracking skills.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;579758I see them as a one- or two-level dip to give my fighters some useful wilderness, survival, and tracking skills.
You sicken me.
RPGPundit
I remember when levels actually meant something significant. Not something you "took a dip into" to min/max your character. And when you actually had to find someone to train you, rather than instantly being granted a skill as soon as you "dinged".
Quote from: RPGPundit;580082You sicken me.
RPGPundit
I know, but the 3.x Fighter sickens me. It can't DO anything. Rangers at least get some useful skills.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;580087I remember when levels actually meant something significant. Not something you "took a dip into" to min/max your character. And when you actually had to find someone to train you, rather than instantly being granted a skill as soon as you "dinged".
Ugh. Even World of Warcraft is doing away with class trainers; you automatically get new skills granted to you. When I found that out the other day, I had more than a few choice words to say.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;580143I know, but the 3.x Fighter sickens me. It can't DO anything. Rangers at least get some useful skills.
Well, LotFP's fighters are absolutely kick-ass.
Arrows of Indra's fighters will be pretty awesome too.
RPGPundit
I like my rangers like Aragorn.
There's only one true ranger:
(http://claytonmoore.tripod.com/lr_silv8.jpg)
And he can fuck up werewolves like no one else with those silver bullets.