Quote from: jhkim on June 01, 2023, 01:04:17 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2023, 01:53:56 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:27:33 AM
20% of Gen Z have some form of mental illness in gender identity, so those numbers they got for gen z are probably not right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

The link you give says that 20% of Gen Z identifies as LGBT. Among LGBT people, it says

QuoteMore than half of LGBT Americans, 57%, indicate they are bisexual. That percentage translates to 4.0% of all U.S. adults. Meanwhile, 21% of LGBT Americans say they are gay, 14% lesbian, 10% transgender and 4% something else.

So only around 2% of Gen Z identify as transgender.

How many of them no longer identify as male or female, are they trans now, you could ask the tootsie roll owl how many pronouns it takes to trans, but if they aren't male or female, congrats they are in the wonderful world of transdom. That mind virus goes pretty quick with social contagion.  It can take a sane 8 year old girl and transition her to a "boy" in less than 5 years.  It can take a healthy male who says they'll never get the surgery and in under a decade their genetalia is thrown into a trashcan. When you are looking at left wing gender conversion therapy its pretty virulent.  Once you no longer identify as male or female, they are in the trans sphere and should be counted as such.

Yes, I'd agree that if someone no longer identifies as male or female, that means they are transgender.

However, someone who is gay - i.e. who has always identified and been known as male, but is attracted to other men - is not transgender. Likewise, someone who has always identified as female and is a lesbian isn't transgender.

The survey you linked to said that 20% of Gen Z identified as LGBT, and that most LGBT people were bisexual, lesbian, or gay - but not transgender. Only around 2% were transgender.

That is a similar percentage to the WotC survey that found that 1% of respondents identified as non-binary (i.e. neither male nor female).

It's an online survey, and looking at the LFG at D&D beyond, the amount of trans present is closer to 7% not < 0.05%.  They would enter male or female how they feel for the day (if gender fluid) or chose to identify.  There are going to be issues now in the US when going with a leftwing company for demographic surveys.  Its how you feel for the day not what you actually are.  It you ask a trans dude to identify as their sex, they are going to ree if they are the lefts versions of transgender and not a normie trans.

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 31, 2023, 04:03:49 PM
I just wonder how long Wizards can keep the gravy train rolling.

Despite the OGL Debacle, Despite sending Pinkertons to someone's house, despite microtransactions and everything else..

They're business is BOOMING.

They recently announced a 20% Price Hike on all their books going forward...

Hey, man. Pinkerton goons ain't cheap...

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:27:33 AM
20% of Gen Z have some form of mental illness in gender identity, so those numbers they got for gen z are probably not right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 01, 2023, 01:07:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 01, 2023, 01:04:17 PM
The survey you linked to said that 20% of Gen Z identified as LGBT, and that most LGBT people were bisexual, lesbian, or gay - but not transgender. Only around 2% were transgender.

That is a similar percentage to the WotC survey that found that 1% of respondents identified as non-binary (i.e. neither male nor female).

It's an online survey, and looking at the LFG at D&D beyond, the amount of trans present is closer to 7% not < 0.05%.  They would enter male or female how they feel for the day (if gender fluid) or chose to identify.  There are going to be issues now in the US when going with a leftwing company for demographic surveys.

Dude, you're the one who cited the Gallup survey. You claimed 20% of Gen Z was transgender, but the link that you yourself cited said 2%. You're implying under-reporting, but Gen Z are often proud to report they are transgender. Most of the younger people that I know are fine with the label "transgender". Thus, I don't think they're particularly under-reporting.

I don't know how you're estimating 7% of LFG in D&D Beyond. I don't have a paid account so I can't see. Even if it is approximately 7%, that could just mean that LFG posts aren't a representative sample of players as a whole.

Quote from: S'mon on May 29, 2023, 02:44:15 AM
I GM'd for one of those black players, Dionne, later in my own Wilderlands campaign. When her PC died, she had the choice of raising that PC, or raising Nemesis, an NPC, and playing her as her future PC. Nemesis was a very blonde, very topless, very German, Amazon - pic included. Dionne grabbed Nemesis' character sheet with both hands, taking it away from the Spanish guy who was also slavering over it.  She played Nemesis for years, long after another guy took over that campaign (stealing my players!). 

So, I'd say two things can both be true:

1. Black nerds like cool black stuff. I remember the first Black Panther movie was really popular with African friends of mine, former students.
2. Black nerds like cool non-black stuff, including un-PC stuff.

The dark secret of gaming is that people will choose powerful representations over accurate ones any day, and even the activists want their disabilities represented in game to empower them.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 07:51:02 PM


Their business isn't booming.  A lot of players are peeling away.  Their most recent woke books aren't selling.  I laugh still seeing the same two radiant citadel books at my local hobby shop.  I warned the owner about WotC putting in some really weird politics since Mearls got axed. 

Nothing you just said is accurate except what happened at your one hobby store. Their business is booming - provably, objectively, on the record in literally one of the few legally enforceable methods to prove true statements kind of way (quarterly reports filed with the Government for a publicly traded entity). Their recent books are selling - people track the sales numbers on Amazon, know how to convert those numbers to quantity sold, and they are provably selling well.

You've told a lie to yourself which is fine. But you can't get away with telling a lie to everyone else without being called on it. It's absolutely fine you don't like what WOTC has been publishing. It's not OK to declare it must be true others don't like it and to fake claims about their sales numbers because you saw something at your hobby store.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:34:53 PM
I'm familiar with Hasbro financials.  Does this look like D&D is doing well?  In a financial unit, if its doing well they will separate it by name to highlight its sales, they didn't do that for D&D, they grouped D&D with MTG in the results. 

False. In the stockholders meeting they announced the D&D numbers. We discussed it here and elsewhere. Those statements were governed as forward looking statements to the same extent as the written reports. We know, with certainty, it's doing well.

QuoteThe pandemic is over, there is no more fertilizer to D&D sales.  You are telling me, that after WotC decided to shit on the OGL, send the Pinkertons to harass a former fan of them and had D&D Exec Producer imply that either white men need to go from D&D or white men need to leave WotC, they did well with the fans on sales?

To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it (most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back). The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

You have inflated yourself into thinking you represent the whole. Like you did with your one game store.

It's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting. D&D is way up. Each quarter has beaten the last.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
It's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting.

When was this stockholders meeting?

It would seem odd but not impossible if D&D book sales are increasing ahead of the 2024 relaunch. Usually sales dip as people wait for the new stuff.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

Quote from: S'mon on June 10, 2023, 02:49:40 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
It's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting.

When was this stockholders meeting?

It would seem odd but not impossible if D&D book sales are increasing ahead of the 2024 relaunch. Usually sales dip as people wait for the new stuff.

Dude, you gotta understand, some people are below the mean who you can explain on an 8th grade level and teach them, then there are other people who unfortunately are sitting in the 80 range who can't learn.  You have to figure out who those people are and ignore the douchebags, otherwise its like trying to teach intro trig to a cat, its a waste of time.  Let the stupid people be stupid, its fun to watch them try to pull open a push door type of thing.

Quote from: S'mon on May 24, 2023, 07:00:26 PM
60-40 seems about right to me too. Back in 3e days it was more like 75-25; back in 1e days it was more like 90-10.

All that varies massively from table to table though. Some were skewed every which way.

Quote from: Aglondir on June 10, 2023, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

And even with all of that, Mistwell is right.

None of this has impacted their bottom line one bit. They're selling better than they ever have. As much as you want D&D to fail, it's not, nor does it show any signs of doing so. I don't like it, but you have to face up to the truth. THEIR CUSTOMER BASE DIDN'T CARE.

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 10, 2023, 03:08:07 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 10, 2023, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

And even with all of that, Mistwell is right.

None of this has impacted their bottom line one bit. They're selling better than they ever have. As much as you want D&D to fail, it's not, nor does it show any signs of doing so. I don't like it, but you have to face up to the truth. THEIR CUSTOMER BASE DIDN'T CARE.

No, Mistwell is very wrong regardless of how right they were regarding the financials. The Pinkerton thing is exactly the kind of abuse of power we should all be worried about, and the fact most don't care (or worse are claiming it's a lie) is exceedingly worrisome.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on June 13, 2023, 08:13:52 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 10, 2023, 03:08:07 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 10, 2023, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

And even with all of that, Mistwell is right.

None of this has impacted their bottom line one bit. They're selling better than they ever have. As much as you want D&D to fail, it's not, nor does it show any signs of doing so. I don't like it, but you have to face up to the truth. THEIR CUSTOMER BASE DIDN'T CARE.

No, Mistwell is very wrong regardless of how right they were regarding the financials. The Pinkerton thing is exactly the kind of abuse of power we should all be worried about, and the fact most don't care (or worse are claiming it's a lie) is exceedingly worrisome.

There's no disagreement from me there. I'm with you on the Pinkerton thing being a horrible display of abuse and power. But Mistwell was right about everything else.

Guys like HoneyDipper want to live in a fantasy world where D&D and Wotc are actually punished for this kind of shit.. But it's not there. Wotc is thriving and doing awesome and all accounts point to 6th edition being a massive seller.

They successfully brought in a new entire audience with 5th edition, Stranger Things and Critical Role. They don't care about their old audience, and the new audience knows nothing of any other rpg.

They're basically the Budweiser drinkers of Rpgs. It's going to take something massive to dethrone them, like Budweiser was dethroned. I just don't think we've reached that tipping point yet.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AMIt's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting. D&D is way up. Each quarter has beaten the last.

Here's a chart from page 7 of the 2022 annual report showing massive growth in MTG over the last four years. I apologize for the size but I wanted to post it unmodified. Last year's annual report spends two whole pages talking about Magic the Gathering but the only mentions of D&D were in reference to the movie and to D&D's expansion into "digital gaming" via D&D Beyond.

Sometimes I think that you don't actually read these financial reports.



[EDIT] Here are some key quotes from various earnings call:

July 2022: "Growth in several gaming brands including YAHTZEE, led by digital gaming, and AVALON HILL's HeroQuest did not offset a decline in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS related to the 2021 release of Dark Alliance." D&D sales were bad enough to cancel out the profits from HeroQuest

October 2022: "Forecasting double-digit growth in MAGIC this year led by strong growth in tabletop" No mention of D&D sales

February 2023: "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS down in the quarter mostly due to digital comp"

April 2023: "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS up 13% in the quarter" Finally a quarter where D&D is up. But is it up enough to cancel out the previous nine months of decline?


So, out of the previous year, D&D was up in one quarter and down in two. Yet the one quarter of growth is the only one that is widely reported amongst D&D fans. This is leading to the perception that D&D is constantly growing when it is clearly not.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on June 13, 2023, 08:13:52 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 10, 2023, 03:08:07 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 10, 2023, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

And even with all of that, Mistwell is right.

None of this has impacted their bottom line one bit. They're selling better than they ever have. As much as you want D&D to fail, it's not, nor does it show any signs of doing so. I don't like it, but you have to face up to the truth. THEIR CUSTOMER BASE DIDN'T CARE.

No, Mistwell is very wrong regardless of how right they were regarding the financials. The Pinkerton thing is exactly the kind of abuse of power we should all be worried about, and the fact most don't care (or worse are claiming it's a lie) is exceedingly worrisome.

I appreciate you trying be careful about my pronouns, but I am a he.

The Pinkerton thing is a bunch of blown up nonsense by fantasy fans who think the Pinkertons are 1920s villains as opposed to (for their INVESTIGATORS unit rather than security unit, which this was) a lot of mostly overweight office workers who follow up on data.  There was no "abuse of power" and THE GUYS WHO WERE INVOLVED WITH THIS SAID THIS WAS NO BIG DEAL AND IT ALL SETTLED OUT FINE AND THEY GOT A BUNCH OF FREE STUFF OVER IT IN THE END AND MOSTLY AMMOUNTED TO AN ACCIDENT.

You want everyone to imagine mustache twirling villain's or thugs with guns.  You want people to imagine some poor family had their door broken down and held up for some magic cards. You don't want them to imagine what really happened - which was pretty benign.

WOTC initially thought someone stole some new cards. They rapidly figured out it was all a mistake on their part and their own guys had accidentally shipped someone the new cards prior to them being released. They got the new cards back (not by force - voluntarily once the recipient realized it was an error), and gave the person a bunch of free stuff and their money back in exchange. The only "fear" was the initial confusion in the first five minutes of opening the door to some guys claiming they might have stolen the cards, which rapidly resolved with ordinary explanations and phone calls.

This isn't abuse of power. No guns were involved, no threats of violence (or any other threat) was made. I suspect if the name of the investigation company were anything other than Pinkertons and the events had otherwise gone down identically you wouldn't be spinning this fantasy scenario you and some others spun, because there are all these legends surrounding the Pinkerton name due to them being such an old organization. But if you think this was actually an abuse of power you live a deeply privileged life where somehow you've never encountered actual abuse of power where meaningful things happen.