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Often there is a lot of discussion here about who plays D&D these days. Here is some semi-official data on that I thought might be worth discussing here.

According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise
60% are "hybrid" players, who switch between playing the game physically or online
58% play D&D on a weekly basis
48% identify as millennials, 19% from Generation X and 33% from Generation Z
The majority of current D&D players started with 5th Edition. This is a recent shift, as previously the most popular answer for this question was 2nd edition

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise

Gee wizz, I wonder if they used the same metrics where people say nearly half of video game players are women, by comparing playing candy crush on your phone to owning multiple consoles.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 24, 2023, 05:21:42 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise

Gee wizz, I wonder if they used the same metrics where people say nearly half of video game players are women, by comparing playing candy crush on your phone to owning multiple consoles.

No I'd say just less than 40% seems about right. I played Adventure League games for a while and it was running 50% at those games very consistently so I don't think 39% is a surprise at all. What percent did you think it was these days?

60-40 seems about right to me too. Back in 3e days it was more like 75-25; back in 1e days it was more like 90-10.

Not surprizing, D&D is more popular and lost the stigma tyherefore the younger generations jumped on board, since it's NOW popular more women play it when before it was the geek/nerd ones who did.

But with all those players and popularity they still are "undermonetized" and have a DM scarcity problem.

Given that more younger people are now their player base it stands to reason they want to build a walled garden where they can milk them with micro-transactions up the wazoo. The young-uns are used to getting shafted by the AAA Vidya industry.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PMAccording to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

The main thing with polls like this is how they are getting their date. Neither me, nor anyone in my group, are in any way in contact with WotC. Nor are my kids and all their friends. With video games, the player base numbers can be detected, but I don't see how they could possibly know how many people are playing D&D outside of the WotC bubble.

So it is no surprise that most of the people playing 5e started with 5e (as they'd have nothing to compare it to).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 24, 2023, 07:18:45 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PMAccording to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

The main thing with polls like this is how they are getting their date. Neither me, nor anyone in my group, are in any way in contact with WotC. Nor are my kids and all their friends. With video games, the player base numbers can be detected, but I don't see how they could possibly know how many people are playing D&D outside of the WotC bubble.

So it is no surprise that most of the people playing 5e started with 5e (as they'd have nothing to compare it to).

Obviously WoTC will be polling 5e D&D player demographics, not 1e players or players of other RPGs.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 06:27:16 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 24, 2023, 05:21:42 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise

Gee wizz, I wonder if they used the same metrics where people say nearly half of video game players are women, by comparing playing candy crush on your phone to owning multiple consoles.

No I'd say just less than 40% seems about right. I played Adventure League games for a while and it was running 50% at those games very consistently so I don't think 39% is a surprise at all. What percent did you think it was these days?

Honestly I think it MASSIVELY varies by area. Gaming in the 90's and 00's, it was a Caucasian sausage fest in all of my groups, where there was never more than 1 girl, and she was always a wife or girlfriend, normally just there to spend time with her guy.

Even a few years ago when I was playing at a gaming club, with what I found to be a surprising amount of women players, it was still only about 3-4 women to 20+ men.

But then other guys in the States have stories about playing in female dominated D&D games in college during the 80's.

I personally doubt we'll ever get anything near parity of the sexes in RPGs, but then we'll never get parity with knitting circles or romance novel conventions either.

2 other points:

1) I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a lot of the female players have few books outside of the player's manual, and most probably aren't too knowledgeable about the game mechanics.

2) Once the fad-bubble for acting nerdy pops, the hobby will shed a TON of the new type of players, and to play Nostradamus again, most of them will be the women.

Some will obviously stay, because some chicks are actually cool, and have minimal cooties.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 24, 2023, 07:39:12 PM
Even a few years ago when I was playing at a gaming club, with what I found to be a surprising amount of women players, it was still only about 3-4 women to 20+ men.

The London D&D Meetup was often like that, certainly in the 3e D&D era. With 4e D&D it started getting more like 2/3 to 1/3, and then with 5e more like 60-40.

I'd be fascinated to see the religious breakdown of the current audience ...

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 24, 2023, 07:50:22 PM
I'd be fascinated to see the religious breakdown of the current audience ...

80% Woke cultists.

Nah, this feels very accurate to me. 5e is the candy crush of TTRPGs so it fits.

I believe this is a reasonable poll for the plugged in dnd online crowd, sure.  It's obviously not a poll of anywhere close to all D&D players and probably misses very statistically significant other groups.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

As interpreted by GeekWire.com, whoever the fuck they are.

I'd want to see the raw data before trusting Mistwell's cherry picked source.

Quote from: S'mon on May 24, 2023, 07:00:26 PM
60-40 seems about right to me too. Back in 3e days it was more like 75-25; back in 1e days it was more like 90-10.

That sounds about right. I collected some data back in the early 2000s. The WotC survey during the 2e era (conducted in 1998) found 19% female among TTRPG players in general. That was the best controlled data. It was based on a survey of postcards sent to randomized 20,000 household via a survey team - with a followup for those who were hobby gamers.

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/demographics.html

If it really is 39% female, then why do they keep going on and on about "gatekeeping" bullshit?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 24, 2023, 09:33:39 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

As interpreted by GeekWire.com, whoever the fuck they are.

I'd want to see the raw data before trusting Mistwell's cherry picked source.

I didn't cherry pick the source and I too have never heard of them. It's just the only source I have. I also, like you, would rather see the raw data and not trust Geekwire to interpret it. I looked but could not find the raw data but on this one you and I agree. If anyone else here can find it I'd welcome that because my guess is there is more to this information than what Geekwire included. I doubt anything is "wrong" with what they did (though that could be also) but I suspect there was more to it.

Quote from: Brad on May 25, 2023, 12:59:49 PM
If it really is 39% female, then why do they keep going on and on about "gatekeeping" bullshit?

Complaining is a hobby for those who perpetually complain?

Quote from: Venka on May 24, 2023, 08:40:34 PM
I believe this is a reasonable poll for the plugged in dnd online crowd, sure.  It's obviously not a poll of anywhere close to all D&D players and probably misses very statistically significant other groups.

  Given the suffocating scale of Official D&D, I'm not sure any other group can be considered statistically significant--even the "still playing old rules with consistent groups, but disconnected from the current industry" group that I suspect is the second-largest part of the hobby.

Different somewhat related news (?) I didn't want to make a new thread for:

Regarding the upcoming version of the game:

"Our print runs are pretty darn big and printers are telling us you can't give us these three books at the same time." said Crawford. And Chris Perkins added that "The print runs we're talking about are massive. That's been not only true of the core books, but also Tasha's Cauldron. It's what we call a high-end problem."

And from unconfirmed source:

"Tasha's initial print run for ONE of WotC's distributors was larger than the full print numbers for all of 4e combined."

Quote from: Brad on May 25, 2023, 12:59:49 PM
If it really is 39% female, then why do they keep going on and on about "gatekeeping" bullshit?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/in-a-milestone-most-college-educated-workers-in-the-u-s-are-now-women/

The template is:
1- If percent of "group" is less than 50%:
It's not good enough that they are (whatever percent) because it's less than half and half is fair!
2- If percent of "group" is greater than 50%
It's not good enough that they are (whatever percent) because (fish up literally any statistic here, such as ignoring jobs / tasks / skills etc to frame "group" as a victim even though they are over-represented).
3- If percent of "group" is absurdly high
"group" took over because they are good and smart.  It's good that this happened and this should keep happening.  In the past, "not group" was really bad so this is good.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 25, 2023, 04:57:16 PM
"Tasha's initial print run for ONE of WotC's distributors was larger than the full print numbers for all of 4e combined."

Which sounds impressive at first, until you take into consideration the hatred for 4E. How do the sales of Tasha compare to the combined print run of Pathfinder? Because that's where the potential 4E customers went.

I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that 5e is popular. It's an absolutely TERRIBLE game, but it's extremely popular. When has more popularity correlated with more quality - ever?

Quote from: Brad on May 25, 2023, 12:59:49 PM
If it really is 39% female, then why do they keep going on and on about "gatekeeping" bullshit?

We have to have precisely 50/50 split on sex. If even one woman or man unbalances the equation, we have to cull them.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
Often there is a lot of discussion here about who plays D&D these days. Here is some semi-official data on that I thought might be worth discussing here.

According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise

(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/facepalm-head.jpg)

I think we can throw these numbers in the trash. If they count those who "identify otherwise" as a category, how many of the other categories are just "identifying" as such?

A software-related group I am a part of has been trying to do outreach for years now to appeal to women. It has never budged above 5% female overall. Miraculously in the past few years we've not only gone above 5% but are, last I checked, closing in on 30%.

Also to the best of my knowledge, we've recruited very few new females   :D

Quote from: Aglondir on May 25, 2023, 05:21:42 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 25, 2023, 04:57:16 PM
"Tasha's initial print run for ONE of WotC's distributors was larger than the full print numbers for all of 4e combined."

Which sounds impressive at first, until you take into consideration the hatred for 4E. How do the sales of Tasha compare to the combined print run of Pathfinder? Because that's where the potential 4E customers went.

The initial sales of 4e well outsold Pathfinder at the time. Pathfinder only overtook it a year later.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 25, 2023, 06:24:33 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
Often there is a lot of discussion here about who plays D&D these days. Here is some semi-official data on that I thought might be worth discussing here.

According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise

(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/facepalm-head.jpg)

I think we can throw these numbers in the trash. If they count those who "identify otherwise" as a category, how many of the other categories are just "identifying" as such?

You're hung up on 1% thinking that is enough to trash the entire thing? Weird.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2023, 06:36:21 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on May 25, 2023, 05:21:42 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 25, 2023, 04:57:16 PM
"Tasha's initial print run for ONE of WotC's distributors was larger than the full print numbers for all of 4e combined."

Which sounds impressive at first, until you take into consideration the hatred for 4E. How do the sales of Tasha compare to the combined print run of Pathfinder? Because that's where the potential 4E customers went.

The initial sales of 4e well outsold Pathfinder at the time. Pathfinder only overtook it a year later.

Initial sales of 4e were good only because nobody knew how much of a turd it was with all the shine WotC put on it. Pathfinder overtook it a year later because it took time to write, playtest, publish, and ship the Pathfinder core books. IIRC, "overtook" is a poor word to describe the cratering effect 4e had on people's faith in WotC to produce a good game.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2023, 06:36:21 PM
The initial sales of 4e well outsold Pathfinder at the time. Pathfinder only overtook it a year later.

That might possibly be because 4e released in 2008 & PF in 2009.  ;D

(You probably meant that 4e in 2008 outsold PF in 2009, which seems plausible. According to Paizo, the shelves in Orc's Nest, and some sales chart by a distributor (Diamond?) I recall, it was in mid 2010 that PF overtook 4e, then PF remained ahead until the release of 5e. AFAICT in 2009 4e a year into its life was still outselling initially released PF).

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2023, 06:36:21 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on May 25, 2023, 05:21:42 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 25, 2023, 04:57:16 PM
"Tasha's initial print run for ONE of WotC's distributors was larger than the full print numbers for all of 4e combined."

Which sounds impressive at first, until you take into consideration the hatred for 4E. How do the sales of Tasha compare to the combined print run of Pathfinder? Because that's where the potential 4E customers went.

The initial sales of 4e well outsold Pathfinder at the time. Pathfinder only overtook it a year later.

How did the entire print run of 4E compare to the entire print run of Pathfinder?

These are 5e players, so I believe the numbers are probably accurate in a general sense.  Most of the older players jumped ship for Pathfinder or just stayed with their version of choice instead of going to 5th, and so are off in their houses playing their non-5e game rather than answering D&D polls.  If we had a crystal ball and could get an actual accurate headcount on all D&D/OSR/Pathfinder gamers, the population would abruptly skew much older, I expect.  I'm not the only person in my circle of friends who cracked a 5e PHB in the store, looked in it, said, "These class options are dumbed down and bland as fuck," and proceeded to never play it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 25, 2023, 06:04:57 PM
I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that 5e is popular. It's an absolutely TERRIBLE game, but it's extremely popular. When has more popularity correlated with more quality - ever?

Yup, that's about the size of things. If anything, the growth of 5E seems to be Gen Z entering the market. At least they have an excuse because they've never played anything else. Millennials and Gen X...not so much.

The other thing I notice with these demographics; 1% "other" genders means that this is really not an LGBTQ industry. In fact, their trans participation rate is lower than the background population rate, which is usually reported as 1.4%. This is especially noteworthy when you consider how young the D&D target demographic is; trans is more a younger person thing, so for you to have 80% of your consumer demographics split between Millennials and Gen Z, netting out a lower trans rate than the overall population means your game is significantly negatively correlated with being trans.

Also notably absent is race stats. We all know the black participation rate is low (likely because of the Satanic Panic) but I would like to know how low. Also seeing how communities like Asian, Indian, Native American, and Hispanic participate would be valuable data. You know that WotC collected this, so I have to conclude for it to not be presented...the results are probably pretty darn unflattering.

Quote from: Fheredin on May 27, 2023, 08:04:38 AM
The other thing I notice with these demographics; 1% "other" genders means that this is really not an LGBTQ industry. In fact, their trans participation rate is lower than the background population rate, which is usually reported as 1.4%. This is especially noteworthy when you consider how young the D&D target demographic is; trans is more a younger person thing, so for you to have 80% of your consumer demographics split between Millennials and Gen Z, netting out a lower trans rate than the overall population means your game is significantly negatively correlated with being trans.

I think you're misinterpreting the result here. The 1% is only those who don't identify as male or female, but many transgender people identify as male (i.e. transmen) or female (transwomen). Estimates vary widely about how many transgender and nonbinary people there are. One estimate says 0.4% of the population (1.2 million) identify as non-binary (ref) (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/nonbinary-lgbtq-adults-us/) - though that seems high. Also, some of the 1% might be "refuse to report gender" rather than positively identifying as nonbinary.

It's hard to tell from the rounded-off 1%, but it sets some limits. It could be a little over-represented or a little under-represented depending on how one is counting and which estimates one goes by.

Quote from: Fheredin on May 27, 2023, 08:04:38 AM
Also notably absent is race stats. We all know the black participation rate is low (likely because of the Satanic Panic) but I would like to know how low. Also seeing how communities like Asian, Indian, Native American, and Hispanic participate would be valuable data. You know that WotC collected this, so I have to conclude for it to not be presented...the results are probably pretty darn unflattering.

I'd tend to agree that RPG players are probably more white than the population which is why they don't survey or report it, though I also think there's no reason that it should be exactly representational.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 25, 2023, 06:04:57 PM
I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that 5e is popular.

The reason I'm skeptical is because whenever I try to find data to support 5e's popularity it is always written in deliberately deceptive ways. For example, WotC stated that 5e was the most popular "WotC edition" but they treat 3.0 and 3.5 as separate editions. Or they will go on about how big the "D&D community" is when that includes non-gamers.

The only actual data point I could find was a statement that 5e has sold 800,000 copies of all book combined. Yet AD&D sold 1.2 million copies of just the Players Handbook, and that was back when the population of the US was half what it is today.

So there is plenty of reason to doubt the narrative that 5e is the most popular version of D&D ever made.

Quote from: S'mon on May 27, 2023, 01:49:59 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2023, 06:36:21 PM
The initial sales of 4e well outsold Pathfinder at the time. Pathfinder only overtook it a year later.

That might possibly be because 4e released in 2008 & PF in 2009.  ;D

I was wrong earlier apparently it took years to overtake 4e. The old IcV2 numbers (https://www.enworld.org/threads/5-years-of-icv2-rankings-a-retrospective.353592/) show 4e did well to start and held the top spot until Qtr 2 2011.

Tasha's outsold the ENTIRE RUN with one supplement book for 5e.

Quote from: Aglondir on May 27, 2023, 02:23:16 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2023, 06:36:21 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on May 25, 2023, 05:21:42 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 25, 2023, 04:57:16 PM
"Tasha's initial print run for ONE of WotC's distributors was larger than the full print numbers for all of 4e combined."

Which sounds impressive at first, until you take into consideration the hatred for 4E. How do the sales of Tasha compare to the combined print run of Pathfinder? Because that's where the potential 4E customers went.

The initial sales of 4e well outsold Pathfinder at the time. Pathfinder only overtook it a year later.

How did the entire print run of 4E compare to the entire print run of Pathfinder?

I have no idea?

Quote from: Valatar on May 27, 2023, 02:34:57 AM
These are 5e players, so I believe the numbers are probably accurate in a general sense.  Most of the older players jumped ship for Pathfinder or just stayed with their version of choice instead of going to 5th, and so are off in their houses playing their non-5e game rather than answering D&D polls.  If we had a crystal ball and could get an actual accurate headcount on all D&D/OSR/Pathfinder gamers, the population would abruptly skew much older, I expect.  I'm not the only person in my circle of friends who cracked a 5e PHB in the store, looked in it, said, "These class options are dumbed down and bland as fuck," and proceeded to never play it.

We know the OSR is not statistically large overall. And we know Pathfinder is around 20% of 5e, and itself skews younger than the OSR. So I don't think your assumptions are accurate. The overwhelming majority of D&D players these days, of any flavor, are Millennials or younger.

Why this is something to fight against and doubt, I don't know. The game was always focused on a younger generation and it's healthy for RPGs that younger people are into an RPG at this age.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 27, 2023, 11:04:21 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 25, 2023, 06:04:57 PM
I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that 5e is popular.

The reason I'm skeptical is because whenever I try to find data to support 5e's popularity it is always written in deliberately deceptive ways. For example, WotC stated that 5e was the most popular "WotC edition" but they treat 3.0 and 3.5 as separate editions. Or they will go on about how big the "D&D community" is when that includes non-gamers.

The only actual data point I could find was a statement that 5e has sold 800,000 copies of all book combined. Yet AD&D sold 1.2 million copies of just the Players Handbook, and that was back when the population of the US was half what it is today.

So there is plenty of reason to doubt the narrative that 5e is the most popular version of D&D ever made.

My man, 5e had sold 800,000 copies by 2017. That was 6 years ago. Tashas alone sold 105,022 units just in November 2020.  All the core books soared back into the top 100 on Amazon throughout the pandemic and so did their new releases those years.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 27, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
The reason I'm skeptical is because whenever I try to find data to support 5e's popularity it is always written in deliberately deceptive ways.

And what ways would not be in some way partly deceptive? You want WOTC to summon a angel to objectively present what is the "For real no fooling" edition? Yet somehow whenever the same sort of halfway statistics represent something the OSR community likes, its 100% slam dunk.
With this sort of statistical analysis you will never get the 100% accrurate representation of who plays. Just because thats not possible doesn't mean there is always malicious intent or that there is a legion of 3 billion D&D 2e players in some secret vault somewhere being "The REAL" popular edition.
Comparing book sales at a time of PDFS/online games and mass sharing/piracy is just really disengenous.

And I think 5e is ass. The worst edition of D&D in terms of ambition and creativity (4e is a fine experiement, bite me). But Ass things are popular.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 27, 2023, 12:03:16 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 27, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
The reason I'm skeptical is because whenever I try to find data to support 5e's popularity it is always written in deliberately deceptive ways. For example, WotC stated that 5e was the most popular "WotC edition" but they treat 3.0 and 3.5 as separate editions. Or they will go on about how big the "D&D community" is when that includes non-gamers.

The only actual data point I could find was a statement that 5e has sold 800,000 copies of all book combined. Yet AD&D sold 1.2 million copies of just the Players Handbook, and that was back when the population of the US was half what it is today.

My man, 5e had sold 800,000 copies by 2017. That was 6 years ago. Tashas alone sold 105,022 units just in November 2020.  All the core books soared back into the top 100 on Amazon throughout the pandemic and so did their new releases those years.

Sales data is always tricky to come by. This is what I see for 1st and 2nd editions.

From http://dmmagazine.blogspot.com/2019/11/tsr-sales-numbers-for-ad-first-and.html

QuoteTo compare to previous editions of AD&D, the 1st edition DMG and PHB together sold over 146,000 copies in 1979. Putting those numbers together makes AD&D 2nd edition look like a solid hit. But it hides a deeper problem.

AD&D 2nd edition didn't have the legs that AD&D 1st edition did. Combined sales of the 1st edition DMG and PHB actually went up at first, selling over 390,000 in 1980, over 577,000 in 1981, over 452,000 in 1982, and 533,000 in 1983 before finally sliding to just over 234,000 in 1984, at the time when TSR began its first crisis. Meanwhile, the 2nd edition DMG and PHB would never sell more than 200,000 copies in a single year after 1989. In short, 2nd edition wasn't selling like its predecessor.

For 5th edition, the only number I see for core books is 800,000 in August 2017.

From https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-5e-nearing-800-000-copies-sold.579618/

Quote5e is close to selling 800,000 copies! He did say, "I think", and "maybe", but he's at WotC and in a position to know. He doesn't say if that's PHB's or all books combined, but it shure sounds like the he meant the PHB. Nor does he say if it's electronic versions or not.

The PH was released on August 19, 2014 - and the DMG on December 9, 2014. So that figure is after 3 years for PHB and 2.5 years for DMG. We don't know if it was combined sales or not. So that's 260,000 to 320,000 per year -- but I don't know what the curve is like or how it has sold since August 2017.

It sounds like it sold significantly better than 2E its first 2-3 years, but worse than 1E, which covers a lot of ground.

Mistwell's quote on Tasha's - 105,022 units sold in November 2020 - is mentioned in Wikipedia, citing Publisher's Weekly data which seems to check out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasha%27s_Cauldron_of_Everything#Reception

I don't find the gender split very surprising considering D&D has drifted much closer to LARPing, if not entirely in rules then definitely in how it is marketed(e.g., Critical Role).

wrt 5e, I'd assume it's the most popular mostly considering it has by far the most reach of any edition thanks to how widespread the internet & digital storefronts are now. The debate over whether AD&D sold as well as 5E shouldn't be framed as "competitive" but how much of a cultural juggernaut D&D was at the time compared to the blip it is now.
One area that TSR's D&D did quite well in, video games, WotC completely dropped the ball on. TSR could boast licensing D&D to some of the best computer games made at the time. Getting people into your product from other mediums is very important, especially as the potential video game audience grew exponentially.

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2023, 09:30:28 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on May 27, 2023, 08:04:38 AM
The other thing I notice with these demographics; 1% "other" genders means that this is really not an LGBTQ industry. In fact, their trans participation rate is lower than the background population rate, which is usually reported as 1.4%. This is especially noteworthy when you consider how young the D&D target demographic is; trans is more a younger person thing, so for you to have 80% of your consumer demographics split between Millennials and Gen Z, netting out a lower trans rate than the overall population means your game is significantly negatively correlated with being trans.

I think you're misinterpreting the result here. The 1% is only those who don't identify as male or female, but many transgender people identify as male (i.e. transmen) or female (transwomen). Estimates vary widely about how many transgender and nonbinary people there are. One estimate says 0.4% of the population (1.2 million) identify as non-binary (ref) (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/nonbinary-lgbtq-adults-us/) - though that seems high. Also, some of the 1% might be "refuse to report gender" rather than positively identifying as nonbinary.

It's hard to tell from the rounded-off 1%, but it sets some limits. It could be a little over-represented or a little under-represented depending on how one is counting and which estimates one goes by.

Quote from: Fheredin on May 27, 2023, 08:04:38 AM
Also notably absent is race stats. We all know the black participation rate is low (likely because of the Satanic Panic) but I would like to know how low. Also seeing how communities like Asian, Indian, Native American, and Hispanic participate would be valuable data. You know that WotC collected this, so I have to conclude for it to not be presented...the results are probably pretty darn unflattering.

I'd tend to agree that RPG players are probably more white than the population which is why they don't survey or report it, though I also think there's no reason that it should be exactly representational.

Yes and no. I think that RPGs are by their nature probably theraputic for things like gender dysphoria because it encourages you to become comfortable being another roleplaying as another person. Could this be people simply identifying as a gender? Possibly. But I think that an actual negative correlation with gender dysphoria is reasonable, too.

A lot of WotC's actions make more sense if you assume that Hasbro is intent on courting ESG investor funding. The intent with things like the OGL debacle and making D&D an online service isn't to make the fans happy, but to put themselves in a position where they can appeal for ESG bailouts. To quote Razorfist, "it isn't 'get woke, go broke,' but 'go broke, get woke.' " In this case, moving online is probably an attempt to pander towards blacks specifically, because blacks play a fair number of video games. I imagine that Hasbro probably doesn't understand how black charismatic churches combined with the Satanic Panic to drive blacks out of the hobby, so they probably attribute poor participation to low literacy and D&D not being culturally sensitive.

Quote from: Fheredin on May 28, 2023, 09:38:41 AM
In this case, moving online is probably an attempt to pander towards blacks specifically, because blacks play a fair number of video games. I imagine that Hasbro probably doesn't understand how black charismatic churches combined with the Satanic Panic to drive blacks out of the hobby, so they probably attribute poor participation to low literacy and D&D not being culturally sensitive.

IME Tomb of Annihilation attracted a lot of black players, because it was set in a cool pseudo-Africa, with a non-derogatory take on an African culture (based on Dahomey & similar slave states, but let's pass over that). Whereas the likes of Strixhaven, Witchlight, and the fantasy Seattle Barristas scenarios is about as pasty white, un-black as you can possibly get. All respect to my black compadres, but they have zero interest in playing baizuo barristas.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
Often there is a lot of discussion here about who plays D&D these days. Here is some semi-official data on that I thought might be worth discussing here.

According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise
60% are "hybrid" players, who switch between playing the game physically or online
58% play D&D on a weekly basis
48% identify as millennials, 19% from Generation X and 33% from Generation Z
The majority of current D&D players started with 5th Edition. This is a recent shift, as previously the most popular answer for this question was 2nd edition

That was a survey of 5e players for the most part. The OSR players were not invited unless someone made them aware of the survey URL at the time.

Quote from: S'mon on May 28, 2023, 02:43:24 PMIME Tomb of Annihilation attracted a lot of black players, because it was set in a cool pseudo-Africa

Thats a really....improbably premise in my opinion, any more so then saying a setting really attracts white people for being set in pseudo-Scandinavia.
Like when it comes to black people, a lot of them like Dragonball and Naruto (and Yugioh TCG is strangely popular with them as well).

I think one of the most popular RPGs from Brazil was one of the most weeb-ish and wannabe anime things I have seen in recent memory. It was fun from what I remember (based on D&D 3e).

Not saying the secret to black hearts is anime. Im saying that the sort of people that like pasty lame white people's hobbies, are the sort of people not to really care. It might be a "Oh thats neat" but not a "Oh boy, blackness, do I feel represented!"

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2023, 06:37:26 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 25, 2023, 06:24:33 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
Often there is a lot of discussion here about who plays D&D these days. Here is some semi-official data on that I thought might be worth discussing here.

According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise

(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/facepalm-head.jpg)

I think we can throw these numbers in the trash. If they count those who "identify otherwise" as a category, how many of the other categories are just "identifying" as such?

You're hung up on 1% thinking that is enough to trash the entire thing? Weird.

No. I'm considering the category to be indicative of a skewed method. Not the number.

It's not 40% women.  I remember a large hobby shop I game at and they had 4 women to about 20 men.  When you go to a large gaming convention you see about 20% women playing.  I would not be surprised if the "women" they got were millenial men who think they are women or they did some very creative cherry picking to pump up those numbers.

Their Gen X number is low because they have been encouraged to play other games by Wotc behavior.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 28, 2023, 10:48:42 PM

Quote from: S'mon on May 28, 2023, 02:43:24 PMIME Tomb of Annihilation attracted a lot of black players, because it was set in a cool pseudo-Africa

Thats a really....improbably premise in my opinion

It's not a 'premise', it's an observation. The only time I ever saw multiple black players at the same table at the London D&D Meetup was when I played in a Tomb of Annihilation campaign.

I GM'd for one of those black players, Dionne, later in my own Wilderlands campaign. When her PC died, she had the choice of raising that PC, or raising Nemesis, an NPC, and playing her as her future PC. Nemesis was a very blonde, very topless, very German, Amazon - pic included. Dionne grabbed Nemesis' character sheet with both hands, taking it away from the Spanish guy who was also slavering over it.  ;D She played Nemesis for years, long after another guy took over that campaign (stealing my players!).  :o

So, I'd say two things can both be true:

1. Black nerds like cool black stuff. I remember the first Black Panther movie was really popular with African friends of mine, former students.
2. Black nerds like cool non-black stuff, including un-PC stuff.

Female participation in my neck of the woods has run from about 33-50% pretty much regardless of genre except for the one female GM whose VTT players are all men.

Now an interesting correlary is that these are all home/regular FLGS campaigns and, while it's anecdotal, the ladies have shown far less interest in attending conventions than the men have. Some are mothers with younger children, but I suspect that for others the idea of one-shot adventures running a random pregen just isn't their jam.

So I really have no reason to doubt WotC's sex breakdown as that's pretty much in the middle of the range I've experienced in the last decade.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 24, 2023, 07:44:13 PM
2 other points:

1) I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a lot of the female players have few books outside of the player's manual, and most probably aren't too knowledgeable about the game mechanics.

2) Once the fad-bubble for acting nerdy pops, the hobby will shed a TON of the new type of players, and to play Nostradamus again, most of them will be the women.

Some will obviously stay, because some chicks are actually cool, and have minimal cooties.

Re #1 -- you just mean most players right? Because frankly . . . most players probably don't own any books at all.

Quote from: Thondor on May 30, 2023, 02:14:38 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 24, 2023, 07:44:13 PM
2 other points:

1) I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a lot of the female players have few books outside of the player's manual, and most probably aren't too knowledgeable about the game mechanics.

2) Once the fad-bubble for acting nerdy pops, the hobby will shed a TON of the new type of players, and to play Nostradamus again, most of them will be the women.

Some will obviously stay, because some chicks are actually cool, and have minimal cooties.

Re #1 -- you just mean most players right? Because frankly . . . most players probably don't own any books at all.

I know plenty of players that have to own every book for any game they play, and often everything for any game that just interests them.

Then a bunch that just own player guide type books, so they can level up their characters without waiting on a shared book.

Then there's a minority that you're lucky if they bring a pencil.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 30, 2023, 02:28:38 PM

Quote from: Thondor on May 30, 2023, 02:14:38 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 24, 2023, 07:44:13 PM
2 other points:

1) I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a lot of the female players have few books outside of the player's manual, and most probably aren't too knowledgeable about the game mechanics.

2) Once the fad-bubble for acting nerdy pops, the hobby will shed a TON of the new type of players, and to play Nostradamus again, most of them will be the women.

Some will obviously stay, because some chicks are actually cool, and have minimal cooties.

Re #1 -- you just mean most players right? Because frankly . . . most players probably don't own any books at all.

I know plenty of players that have to own every book for any game they play, and often everything for any game that just interests them.

Then a bunch that just own player guide type books, so they can level up their characters without waiting on a shared book.

Then there's a minority that you're lucky if they bring a pencil.

My favorite players are those that use digital dice and use D&D beyond to run their character.  It's like "bud could you spend "tree fifty" for the hobby shop and at least buy some dice?".

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 03:18:16 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 30, 2023, 02:28:38 PM

Quote from: Thondor on May 30, 2023, 02:14:38 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 24, 2023, 07:44:13 PM
2 other points:

1) I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a lot of the female players have few books outside of the player's manual, and most probably aren't too knowledgeable about the game mechanics.

2) Once the fad-bubble for acting nerdy pops, the hobby will shed a TON of the new type of players, and to play Nostradamus again, most of them will be the women.

Some will obviously stay, because some chicks are actually cool, and have minimal cooties.

Re #1 -- you just mean most players right? Because frankly . . . most players probably don't own any books at all.

I know plenty of players that have to own every book for any game they play, and often everything for any game that just interests them.

Then a bunch that just own player guide type books, so they can level up their characters without waiting on a shared book.

Then there's a minority that you're lucky if they bring a pencil.

My favorite players are those that use digital dice and use D&D beyond to run their character.  It's like "bud could you spend "tree fifty" for the hobby shop and at least buy some dice?".

In my teens I had a player that gamed with me several times a week for about 5 years. Never brought a pencil, never owned a dice, sure as shit didn't buy a rulebook.

It wasn't lack of money, he got way more allowance than I ever did, the guy was just a total freeloader.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 29, 2023, 12:43:04 AM
It's not 40% women.  I remember a large hobby shop I game at and they had 4 women to about 20 men.  When you go to a large gaming convention you see about 20% women playing.  I would not be surprised if the "women" they got were millenial men who think they are women or they did some very creative cherry picking to pump up those numbers.

Their Gen X number is low because they have been encouraged to play other games by Wotc behavior.

LOL they're wrong because it differs from your experience which involved a single hobby shop and single convention?

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 29, 2023, 12:43:04 AM
It's not 40% women.  I remember a large hobby shop I game at and they had 4 women to about 20 men.  When you go to a large gaming convention you see about 20% women playing.  I would not be surprised if the "women" they got were millenial men who think they are women or they did some very creative cherry picking to pump up those numbers.

Their Gen X number is low because they have been encouraged to play other games by Wotc behavior.

LOL they're wrong because it differs from your experience which involved a single hobby shop and single convention?

It's multiple conventions and that was the main hobby shop in my area with the largest audience.  For my local hobby shop that I DM at, we have one guy's girlfriend who plays and the rest are men.  You are looking at D&D themselves, most likely a D&D Beyond survey and that place is a hive of gender confused furries more than normies.  The amount of dudes saying they are chicks are going to make that survey off from a reality perspective.  And no that is a few conventions over the last 5 years man.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 10:49:05 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 29, 2023, 12:43:04 AM
It's not 40% women.  I remember a large hobby shop I game at and they had 4 women to about 20 men.  When you go to a large gaming convention you see about 20% women playing.  I would not be surprised if the "women" they got were millenial men who think they are women or they did some very creative cherry picking to pump up those numbers.

Their Gen X number is low because they have been encouraged to play other games by Wotc behavior.

LOL they're wrong because it differs from your experience which involved a single hobby shop and single convention?

It's multiple conventions and that was the main hobby shop in my area with the largest audience.  For my local hobby shop that I DM at, we have one guy's girlfriend who plays and the rest are men.  You are looking at D&D themselves, most likely a D&D Beyond survey and that place is a hive of gender confused furries more than normies.  The amount of dudes saying they are chicks are going to make that survey off from a reality perspective.  And no that is a few conventions over the last 5 years man.

They survey these things every single survey they put out, for a decade now. They get MASSIVE amounts of response - tens of thousands of responses from around the nation. And to overcome that you cite your own personal small experience and then declare your own bias must be true?

Multiple people in this thread said their own personal experiences are the opposite of yours, but those experiences don't count because...it wasn't you experiencing it? Or what, are they all just liars?

Man, you're just raising a huge narcissist flag. It's one thing to doubt the data but it's entirely another to do it because "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true."

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 11:27:40 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 10:49:05 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 29, 2023, 12:43:04 AM
It's not 40% women.  I remember a large hobby shop I game at and they had 4 women to about 20 men.  When you go to a large gaming convention you see about 20% women playing.  I would not be surprised if the "women" they got were millenial men who think they are women or they did some very creative cherry picking to pump up those numbers.

Their Gen X number is low because they have been encouraged to play other games by Wotc behavior.

LOL they're wrong because it differs from your experience which involved a single hobby shop and single convention?

It's multiple conventions and that was the main hobby shop in my area with the largest audience.  For my local hobby shop that I DM at, we have one guy's girlfriend who plays and the rest are men.  You are looking at D&D themselves, most likely a D&D Beyond survey and that place is a hive of gender confused furries more than normies.  The amount of dudes saying they are chicks are going to make that survey off from a reality perspective.  And no that is a few conventions over the last 5 years man.

They survey these things every single survey they put out, for a decade now. They get MASSIVE amounts of response - tens of thousands of responses from around the nation. And to overcome that you cite your own personal small experience and then declare your own bias must be true?

Multiple people in this thread said their own personal experiences are the opposite of yours, but those experiences don't count because...it wasn't you experiencing it? Or what, are they all just liars?

Man, you're just raising a huge narcissist flag. It's one thing to doubt the data but it's entirely another to do it because "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true."

Yeah WotC lies, they lie repeatedly, why would you trust anything from a company conquered by ESG where they have one hell of an incentive to lie about their demographics.  You are trusting WotC, a company that would look you square in the face and tell you Orcs and Drow are black people, Goblins are Jews and Flying Monkey Squirels are Blacks.  WotC doesn't live in reality dude.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 11:31:34 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 11:27:40 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 10:49:05 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 29, 2023, 12:43:04 AM
It's not 40% women.  I remember a large hobby shop I game at and they had 4 women to about 20 men.  When you go to a large gaming convention you see about 20% women playing.  I would not be surprised if the "women" they got were millenial men who think they are women or they did some very creative cherry picking to pump up those numbers.

Their Gen X number is low because they have been encouraged to play other games by Wotc behavior.

LOL they're wrong because it differs from your experience which involved a single hobby shop and single convention?

It's multiple conventions and that was the main hobby shop in my area with the largest audience.  For my local hobby shop that I DM at, we have one guy's girlfriend who plays and the rest are men.  You are looking at D&D themselves, most likely a D&D Beyond survey and that place is a hive of gender confused furries more than normies.  The amount of dudes saying they are chicks are going to make that survey off from a reality perspective.  And no that is a few conventions over the last 5 years man.

They survey these things every single survey they put out, for a decade now. They get MASSIVE amounts of response - tens of thousands of responses from around the nation. And to overcome that you cite your own personal small experience and then declare your own bias must be true?

Multiple people in this thread said their own personal experiences are the opposite of yours, but those experiences don't count because...it wasn't you experiencing it? Or what, are they all just liars?

Man, you're just raising a huge narcissist flag. It's one thing to doubt the data but it's entirely another to do it because "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true."

Yeah WotC lies, they lie repeatedly, why would you trust anything from a company conquered by ESG where they have one hell of an incentive to lie about their demographics.  You are trusting WotC, a company that would look you square in the face and tell you Orcs and Drow are black people, Goblins are Jews and Flying Monkey Squirels are Blacks.  WotC doesn't live in reality dude.

Man, you're just raising a huge narcissist flag. It's one thing to doubt the data but it's entirely another to do it because "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true," despite many others in this thread saying their personal experience differs from yours.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 31, 2023, 12:46:25 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 11:31:34 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 11:27:40 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 10:49:05 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 29, 2023, 12:43:04 AM
It's not 40% women.  I remember a large hobby shop I game at and they had 4 women to about 20 men.  When you go to a large gaming convention you see about 20% women playing.  I would not be surprised if the "women" they got were millenial men who think they are women or they did some very creative cherry picking to pump up those numbers.

Their Gen X number is low because they have been encouraged to play other games by Wotc behavior.

LOL they're wrong because it differs from your experience which involved a single hobby shop and single convention?

It's multiple conventions and that was the main hobby shop in my area with the largest audience.  For my local hobby shop that I DM at, we have one guy's girlfriend who plays and the rest are men.  You are looking at D&D themselves, most likely a D&D Beyond survey and that place is a hive of gender confused furries more than normies.  The amount of dudes saying they are chicks are going to make that survey off from a reality perspective.  And no that is a few conventions over the last 5 years man.

They survey these things every single survey they put out, for a decade now. They get MASSIVE amounts of response - tens of thousands of responses from around the nation. And to overcome that you cite your own personal small experience and then declare your own bias must be true?

Multiple people in this thread said their own personal experiences are the opposite of yours, but those experiences don't count because...it wasn't you experiencing it? Or what, are they all just liars?

Man, you're just raising a huge narcissist flag. It's one thing to doubt the data but it's entirely another to do it because "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true."

Yeah WotC lies, they lie repeatedly, why would you trust anything from a company conquered by ESG where they have one hell of an incentive to lie about their demographics.  You are trusting WotC, a company that would look you square in the face and tell you Orcs and Drow are black people, Goblins are Jews and Flying Monkey Squirels are Blacks.  WotC doesn't live in reality dude.

Man, you're just raising a huge narcissist flag. It's one thing to doubt the data but it's entirely another to do it because "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true," despite many others in this thread saying their personal experience differs from yours.

I'm basing it on WotC problems with reality.  They have financial incentive to cook their books on diversity.  They use D&D Beyond to put out their surveys and the amount of bros with boobs there present is pretty damn staggering meaning the survey is going to have some flux when they try to figure out the females.  I am going of what I've seen in real life at hobby shops and conventions.  It's sitting around 20% in my experience.

Next, stop strawmanning its a pussy move.  I never said "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true,".  Now, when you run into someone with an opposite opinion and they give you their reasoning you call them a narcissist, are you daft?  It's the Internet people are going to disagree with you, when you call them narcisists and you lie about what they wrote, when it can be read in the thread above, it makes you look like you are trolling.

If you think someone is acting like a douche, just ignore them and no longer reply to them.

As I pointed out in a video on these demographics a while back, the problem with this data is that you can't really know if the "39% female" statistic is because 5e got a bunch of new female players, or because a bunch of players who formerly "identified" as male are now "identifying" as female. So the actual growth of new players might be large or miniscule.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 31, 2023, 05:33:17 AM
As I pointed out in a video on these demographics a while back, the problem with this data is that you can't really know if the "39% female" statistic is because 5e got a bunch of new female players, or because a bunch of players who formerly "identified" as male are now "identifying" as female. So the actual growth of new players might be large or miniscule.

You see this with video games at the top level of competition. Year after year they did everything they could to get women on the podium, but they couldn't even get a female that was taken seriously.

Fast forward to self identifying women, and now game journalists get to crow about how this and that top spot is taken by a woman, and this proves there's no difference between men and women.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
Often there is a lot of discussion here about who plays D&D these days. Here is some semi-official data on that I thought might be worth discussing here.

According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/dungeons-dragons-in-2023-wizards-of-the-coast-reveals-planescape-revival-and-more/):

60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise
60% are "hybrid" players, who switch between playing the game physically or online
58% play D&D on a weekly basis
48% identify as millennials, 19% from Generation X and 33% from Generation Z
The majority of current D&D players started with 5th Edition. This is a recent shift, as previously the most popular answer for this question was 2nd edition

Seems ok except for the 1% who identify otherwise. They are too stupid & confused to comprehend D&D. They live in a fantasy world already in their own minds. They do not need a game for that.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 31, 2023, 06:10:47 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 31, 2023, 05:33:17 AM
As I pointed out in a video on these demographics a while back, the problem with this data is that you can't really know if the "39% female" statistic is because 5e got a bunch of new female players, or because a bunch of players who formerly "identified" as male are now "identifying" as female. So the actual growth of new players might be large or miniscule.

You see this with video games at the top level of competition. Year after year they did everything they could to get women on the podium, but they couldn't even get a female that was taken seriously.

Fast forward to self identifying women, and now game journalists get to crow about how this and that top spot is taken by a woman, and this proves there's no difference between men and women.

Men just make better women than women.  I'm willing to bet if D&D got those numbers from D&D Beyond, they are sitting at 5% to 10% are men who think they are women at least going off D&D Beyonds LFG forum

If they want real numbers, do it at a convention and D&D beyond at hobby shops.  Put the survey out as part of registering for convention or adventurers league at the hobby shop and they'll get better data.  I would suggest they put trans women and trans men as options but WotC HQ in Seattle would get so much cultural enrichment they'd burn their HQ to the ground.  20% of Gen Z have some form of mental illness in gender identity, so those numbers they got for gen z are probably not right.


https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:27:33 AM
20% of Gen Z have some form of mental illness in gender identity, so those numbers they got for gen z are probably not right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

The link you give says that 20% of Gen Z identifies as LGBT. Among LGBT people, it says

QuoteMore than half of LGBT Americans, 57%, indicate they are bisexual. That percentage translates to 4.0% of all U.S. adults. Meanwhile, 21% of LGBT Americans say they are gay, 14% lesbian, 10% transgender and 4% something else.

So only around 2% of Gen Z identify as transgender.

Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2023, 01:53:56 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:27:33 AM
20% of Gen Z have some form of mental illness in gender identity, so those numbers they got for gen z are probably not right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

The link you give says that 20% of Gen Z identifies as LGBT. Among LGBT people, it says

QuoteMore than half of LGBT Americans, 57%, indicate they are bisexual. That percentage translates to 4.0% of all U.S. adults. Meanwhile, 21% of LGBT Americans say they are gay, 14% lesbian, 10% transgender and 4% something else.

So only around 2% of Gen Z identify as transgender.

How many of them no longer identify as male or female, are they trans now, you could ask the tootsie roll owl how many pronouns it takes to trans, but if they aren't male or female, congrats they are in the wonderful world of transdom.  That mind virus goes pretty quick with social contagion.  It can take a sane 8 year old girl and transition her to a "boy" in less than 5 years.  It can take a healthy male who says they'll never get the surgery and in under a decade their genetalia is thrown into a trashcan.  When you are looking at left wing gender conversion therapy its pretty virulent.  Once you no longer identify as male or female, they are in the trans sphere and should be counted as such.  That take alone could be enough to wake parents up to the dangers of indulging in such fantasies for children who haven't went through puberty.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 12:55:31 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 31, 2023, 12:46:25 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 11:31:34 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 11:27:40 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 30, 2023, 10:49:05 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2023, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 29, 2023, 12:43:04 AM
It's not 40% women.  I remember a large hobby shop I game at and they had 4 women to about 20 men.  When you go to a large gaming convention you see about 20% women playing.  I would not be surprised if the "women" they got were millenial men who think they are women or they did some very creative cherry picking to pump up those numbers.

Their Gen X number is low because they have been encouraged to play other games by Wotc behavior.

LOL they're wrong because it differs from your experience which involved a single hobby shop and single convention?

It's multiple conventions and that was the main hobby shop in my area with the largest audience.  For my local hobby shop that I DM at, we have one guy's girlfriend who plays and the rest are men.  You are looking at D&D themselves, most likely a D&D Beyond survey and that place is a hive of gender confused furries more than normies.  The amount of dudes saying they are chicks are going to make that survey off from a reality perspective.  And no that is a few conventions over the last 5 years man.

They survey these things every single survey they put out, for a decade now. They get MASSIVE amounts of response - tens of thousands of responses from around the nation. And to overcome that you cite your own personal small experience and then declare your own bias must be true?

Multiple people in this thread said their own personal experiences are the opposite of yours, but those experiences don't count because...it wasn't you experiencing it? Or what, are they all just liars?

Man, you're just raising a huge narcissist flag. It's one thing to doubt the data but it's entirely another to do it because "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true."

Yeah WotC lies, they lie repeatedly, why would you trust anything from a company conquered by ESG where they have one hell of an incentive to lie about their demographics.  You are trusting WotC, a company that would look you square in the face and tell you Orcs and Drow are black people, Goblins are Jews and Flying Monkey Squirels are Blacks.  WotC doesn't live in reality dude.

Man, you're just raising a huge narcissist flag. It's one thing to doubt the data but it's entirely another to do it because "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true," despite many others in this thread saying their personal experience differs from yours.

I'm basing it on WotC problems with reality.  They have financial incentive to cook their books on diversity.  They use D&D Beyond to put out their surveys and the amount of bros with boobs there present is pretty damn staggering meaning the survey is going to have some flux when they try to figure out the females.  I am going of what I've seen in real life at hobby shops and conventions.  It's sitting around 20% in my experience.

Next, stop strawmanning its a pussy move.  I never said "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true,".  Now, when you run into someone with an opposite opinion and they give you their reasoning you call them a narcissist, are you daft?  It's the Internet people are going to disagree with you, when you call them narcisists and you lie about what they wrote, when it can be read in the thread above, it makes you look like you are trolling.

If you think someone is acting like a douche, just ignore them and no longer reply to them.

You did say that though. Dismissing the WOTC survey is fine, though your basis lacks logic but whatever. That leaves you with a blank slate.

But once with a blank slate, all you did was cite your own personal experience. You saw others in this thread cite their personal experience which differed from your own, and you entirely ignored it.

So yes, you did in fact take a "I have not seen that myself so it can't be true" position. That's not a strawman. It's not the words you used but it's the position you are taking. It's an entirely you-centric position. It's based purely on your own personal experiences combined with your stated biases. It's not analysis in any meaningful way.

Even just taking the topic of conventions, you don't need to take your own personal experience to get a more accurate read - you were not there to count. GenCon for example said of their 18k sample it was 34% female, 64% male and 2% custom, while in younger age groups it was 44% aged 25-34 are female. Which just so happens to track with the WOTC numbers. Are they also just lying liars what lie for "reasons" because it doesn't track with your personal experience which was, I think you will admit, not you actually doing a count but just a vague general impression?

Keep in mind WOTC says these stats took meaningful changes RECENTLY. Like this most recent set of surveys was the first that listed 5e as the first D&D experience as the largest set of answers and prior to this 2nd edition was the most common answer. Have you considered the possibility the demographics changed recently with the massive growth of the hobby, and your personal knowledge is older and possibly a tad out of date given recent changes?

I just wonder how long Wizards can keep the gravy train rolling.

Despite the OGL Debacle, Despite sending Pinkertons to someone's house, despite microtransactions and everything else..

They're business is BOOMING.

They recently announced a 20% Price Hike on all their books going forward...

Will this finally be the thing which stops them from dominating everywhere? I only hope so.

Wizard's of the Coast has reached the level of comically evil Corporation.... Like full on legit, clown shoes blatantly evil only interested in exploiting their consumer base instead of delivering quality product..

But it may just be they hit the right niche and notes that none of it will come home to roost.... All the players who started with 5th edition, probably have no interest in playing anything else, and most likely look at other RPGs as the "Great Value" version of Dungeons and Dragons.... rather than say, the micro-brew to the mass market pisswater.

It's sad really, because while 5th edition had it's merits... its almost a decade now, the warts are showing... there are better games out there, better ways to play D&D... but the market seems dedicated to buying nothing but D&D despite anything and everything Wizards as a company does.

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 31, 2023, 04:03:49 PM
I just wonder how long Wizards can keep the gravy train rolling.

Despite the OGL Debacle, Despite sending Pinkertons to someone's house, despite microtransactions and everything else..

They're business is BOOMING.

They recently announced a 20% Price Hike on all their books going forward...

Will this finally be the thing which stops them from dominating everywhere? I only hope so.

Wizard's of the Coast has reached the level of comically evil Corporation.... Like full on legit, clown shoes blatantly evil only interested in exploiting their consumer base instead of delivering quality product..

But it may just be they hit the right niche and notes that none of it will come home to roost.... All the players who started with 5th edition, probably have no interest in playing anything else, and most likely look at other RPGs as the "Great Value" version of Dungeons and Dragons.... rather than say, the micro-brew to the mass market pisswater.

It's sad really, because while 5th edition had it's merits... its almost a decade now, the warts are showing... there are better games out there, better ways to play D&D... but the market seems dedicated to buying nothing but D&D despite anything and everything Wizards as a company does.

Their business isn't booming.  A lot of players are peeling away.  Their most recent woke books aren't selling.  I laugh still seeing the same two radiant citadel books at my local hobby shop.  I warned the owner about WotC putting in some really weird politics since Mearls got axed. 

Right now, WotC is trying to do the 2E splat books for lore for "DMs".  Look at Bigby's Giants, wtf does Bigby has to do with giants, well that's what's Wotc is putting out.  WotC axed Volo's and Mord's because they had good core lore for each of the main racial factions and they are reduced to releasing splat books that frankly are gonna suck.  They'll have a few character classes, a new race or two, the same lore from Mords and shit adventure from Perkins. 

The Pandemic gave them business, well its been taken away, and now they have to put out good content, and they can't.  They have to follow ESG now, so their stuff is horribad.  At least with Mearls the core rules and classes were good, the modules needed a fair bit of work but the time invested was less than the time to create an equivalent product.  Now, if you let anything from WotC in currently, it fucks up the game.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 07:51:02 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 31, 2023, 04:03:49 PM
I just wonder how long Wizards can keep the gravy train rolling.

Despite the OGL Debacle, Despite sending Pinkertons to someone's house, despite microtransactions and everything else..

They're business is BOOMING.

They recently announced a 20% Price Hike on all their books going forward...

Will this finally be the thing which stops them from dominating everywhere? I only hope so.

Wizard's of the Coast has reached the level of comically evil Corporation.... Like full on legit, clown shoes blatantly evil only interested in exploiting their consumer base instead of delivering quality product..

But it may just be they hit the right niche and notes that none of it will come home to roost.... All the players who started with 5th edition, probably have no interest in playing anything else, and most likely look at other RPGs as the "Great Value" version of Dungeons and Dragons.... rather than say, the micro-brew to the mass market pisswater.

It's sad really, because while 5th edition had it's merits... its almost a decade now, the warts are showing... there are better games out there, better ways to play D&D... but the market seems dedicated to buying nothing but D&D despite anything and everything Wizards as a company does.

Their business isn't booming.  A lot of players are peeling away.  Their most recent woke books aren't selling.  I laugh still seeing the same two radiant citadel books at my local hobby shop.  I warned the owner about WotC putting in some really weird politics since Mearls got axed. 

Right now, WotC is trying to do the 2E splat books for lore for "DMs".  Look at Bigby's Giants, wtf does Bigby has to do with giants, well that's what's Wotc is putting out.  WotC axed Volo's and Mord's because they had good core lore for each of the main racial factions and they are reduced to releasing splat books that frankly are gonna suck.  They'll have a few character classes, a new race or two, the same lore from Mords and shit adventure from Perkins. 

The Pandemic gave them business, well its been taken away, and now they have to put out good content, and they can't.  They have to follow ESG now, so their stuff is horribad.  At least with Mearls the core rules and classes were good, the modules needed a fair bit of work but the time invested was less than the time to create an equivalent product.  Now, if you let anything from WotC in currently, it fucks up the game.

Their sales for the first quarter of 2023 were higher than their sales for the first Quarter of 2022... Their Stock is at an all time high.

YES their Business is booming... They're making more money than ever before.... Their books ARE selling. You might not like this, hell I don't like it... But it's the truth.

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 31, 2023, 09:30:21 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 07:51:02 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 31, 2023, 04:03:49 PM
I just wonder how long Wizards can keep the gravy train rolling.

Despite the OGL Debacle, Despite sending Pinkertons to someone's house, despite microtransactions and everything else..

They're business is BOOMING.

They recently announced a 20% Price Hike on all their books going forward...

Will this finally be the thing which stops them from dominating everywhere? I only hope so.

Wizard's of the Coast has reached the level of comically evil Corporation.... Like full on legit, clown shoes blatantly evil only interested in exploiting their consumer base instead of delivering quality product..

But it may just be they hit the right niche and notes that none of it will come home to roost.... All the players who started with 5th edition, probably have no interest in playing anything else, and most likely look at other RPGs as the "Great Value" version of Dungeons and Dragons.... rather than say, the micro-brew to the mass market pisswater.

It's sad really, because while 5th edition had it's merits... its almost a decade now, the warts are showing... there are better games out there, better ways to play D&D... but the market seems dedicated to buying nothing but D&D despite anything and everything Wizards as a company does.

Their business isn't booming.  A lot of players are peeling away.  Their most recent woke books aren't selling.  I laugh still seeing the same two radiant citadel books at my local hobby shop.  I warned the owner about WotC putting in some really weird politics since Mearls got axed. 

Right now, WotC is trying to do the 2E splat books for lore for "DMs".  Look at Bigby's Giants, wtf does Bigby has to do with giants, well that's what's Wotc is putting out.  WotC axed Volo's and Mord's because they had good core lore for each of the main racial factions and they are reduced to releasing splat books that frankly are gonna suck.  They'll have a few character classes, a new race or two, the same lore from Mords and shit adventure from Perkins. 

The Pandemic gave them business, well its been taken away, and now they have to put out good content, and they can't.  They have to follow ESG now, so their stuff is horribad.  At least with Mearls the core rules and classes were good, the modules needed a fair bit of work but the time invested was less than the time to create an equivalent product.  Now, if you let anything from WotC in currently, it fucks up the game.

Their sales for the first quarter of 2023 were higher than their sales for the first Quarter of 2022... Their Stock is at an all time high.

YES their Business is booming... They're making more money than ever before.... Their books ARE selling. You might not like this, hell I don't like it... But it's the truth.

I'm familiar with Hasbro financials.  Does this look like D&D is doing well?  In a financial unit, if its doing well they will separate it by name to highlight its sales, they didn't do that for D&D, they grouped D&D with MTG in the results.  The pandemic is over, there is no more fertilizer to D&D sales.  You are telling me, that after WotC decided to shit on the OGL, send the Pinkertons to harass a former fan of them and had D&D Exec Producer imply that either white men need to go from D&D or white men need to leave WotC, they did well with the fans on sales?  A lot of people peeled off.  I've seen Youtubers go full on anti-WotC that will hurt their sales (DMs Lair went public against WotC and is now doing Pathfinder, AJ Picket told D&D off publicly and will never do a D&D video again he is the best D&D monster lore available - he is awesome).

As to Hasbro Q1 results:

source: https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/news-releases/news-release-details/hasbro-reports-first-quarter-2023-financial-results

-Hasbro Q1 Revenue of $1B declined 14% YOY
-Note they always lump MTG and D&D together when talking about an increase in sales and how good its doing.  Well gee lets look at the First Quarter 2023 Major Segment Performance.  Wizards of the Coast and Digital Gaming, gee they had a 12% increase in net revenue, but their Operating Profit (Loss) which should also include headcount cost.  Q1 Operating Profit (Loss): 2022 $106.4M vs 2023 $76.8M.  Most likely a good portion of that was the 1K people they fired, so  diff of $29.6M.  When you look at the difference of Q1 Net Revenue 2022 $262.8 vs 2023 $295.2 = $32.4.  they might have increased by sales $3M, and that would be MTG, that is the cash cow, not D&D.

The issue is they won't talk about D&D by itself in their Q1 financial results, its always linked to MTG.  D&D has went very effin woke, a lot of people don't like that.  And again, this quarter D&D stepped on its dick repeatedly.  If by some miracle you believe that customers liked the OGL, liked the Pinkertons and liked Brink going racist towards whites, then I have some shitcoins to sell you, its worth it trust me.  I cancelled my sub  to D&D Beyond and went to Fantasy Grounds due to D&D's behavior.  I'm not alone, a lot of people matriculated to other pay VTT's than use D&D Beyond after their behavior.

As to layoff source,

In January they announced the layoff of 1K people or 15% of its workforce

source: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/hasbro-posts-129m-loss-amid-layoffs-as-it-looks-for-an-entertainment-one-buyer-1235327570/

Then you are on the site of The RPG Pundit who has stated repeatedly from people he's heard in his videos (Radiance and Candlekeep being examples), their books continue to have smaller and smaller sales with each release.  I'm just saying, I'm not alone looking at D&D financials having some issues.  There has been a lot of speculation of Hasbro selling off D&D, I don't think they are wrong.  This digital push (VTT, Baldurs Gate 3) looks like an attempt to give D&D more of a digital presence so they can sell it off to a video game company because D&D is turning into a turkey.  Essentially proving D&D has a digital presence and all the lore can be mined to create a ton of profitable video games.

I have zero faith that a woke TTRPG company with Microsoft execs running it who shit on everyone publicly who made their game, will be able to create a good game let alone write good lore.  Look at the Neogi from Mords (evil slavers) to Multiverse (space vulcans).  Anyone trying to use a Neogi from Woke 5E have no clue what to do with them, while Normie 5E they know their lore and how to deploy them.  Woke 5E doesn't like alignment because "absolutes", meanwhile Normie 5E likes alignment because it gives you a quick way to build a base behavior for a monster and setting up the planes and religion.  Woke 5E pays sensitivity readers who has to find something to censor in everything given to them to justify their employment while Normie 5E can put out lore that makes sense and is interesting.  I don't see D&D 5E doing as well as it did during the pandemic and I don't see Woke 5E policies increasing sales, in fact it will do the exact opposite.  You can only allow Twitter to be your editor so many times before your content becomes schizophrenic and unusable.

WotC sales are up while operating profits are down. What on Earth could that be?

Maybe with the release of One D&D, the back catalog has been on sale. I can't be assed to check, but that's the simplest explanation.

More likely it's a combination of factors. Normies have likely caught on to what WotC has been doing lately and are tying to get their hands on physical books before the sensitivity readers scrub and sanitize all of the content. They're not pissed off and committed to the boycott, but they're also not interested in any new stuff coming down the pipe. They're getting packed up and stepping off the train.

Quote from: Corolinth on June 01, 2023, 11:45:12 AM
WotC sales are up while operating profits are down. What on Earth could that be?

Maybe with the release of One D&D, the back catalog has been on sale. I can't be assed to check, but that's the simplest explanation.

More likely it's a combination of factors. Normies have likely caught on to what WotC has been doing lately and are tying to get their hands on physical books before the sensitivity readers scrub and sanitize all of the content. They're not pissed off and committed to the boycott, but they're also not interested in any new stuff coming down the pipe. They're getting packed up and stepping off the train.

They cut 15% of their workforce, that will drive up net by reducing costs.  And they still aren't releasing D&D numbers without mixing them in with MTG.  I'm not sure books are going to drive it.  I think its more MTG sales, they've been flooding the market with card packs to drive sales.  Mearl's took over the MTG operations, and Mearl's did a good job with D&D, I mean there are a lot of complaints about the volume of the cards coming out, but I bet that is where the profit is coming from.  After the Spelljammer debacle and then OGL and then Kyle Bring and then Pinkerton people are matriculating out.

I'm thinking they cut costs (headcount + buildings).  My company has been doing that.  Anyone on the bench is normally gone in two weeks if they can't find a project.  It's bloody as Eff right now for workers, I can't see Hasbro of all companies keeping people they don't need.

Side note, I'm looking forward to see if Hasbro goes full on rainbow for D&D.  On the front page of dndbeyond, no rainbow or inclusivity.  There is a chance Hasbro is learning to stay out of politics after Bud, Target and now Kohls.  If so, maybe D&D will turn around, fingers crossed.  Its only day 1 of the pride nutjobbery.  When I'm using my phone, I don't care if the guy on the line was sucking his boyfriends fronthole, I just want a working phone, the same thing applies to D&D.  If they can drop the identity politics out of advertising and c ontent, D&D might be good.  Lets wait and see how the rest of the month pans out.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2023, 01:53:56 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:27:33 AM
20% of Gen Z have some form of mental illness in gender identity, so those numbers they got for gen z are probably not right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

The link you give says that 20% of Gen Z identifies as LGBT. Among LGBT people, it says

QuoteMore than half of LGBT Americans, 57%, indicate they are bisexual. That percentage translates to 4.0% of all U.S. adults. Meanwhile, 21% of LGBT Americans say they are gay, 14% lesbian, 10% transgender and 4% something else.

So only around 2% of Gen Z identify as transgender.

How many of them no longer identify as male or female, are they trans now, you could ask the tootsie roll owl how many pronouns it takes to trans, but if they aren't male or female, congrats they are in the wonderful world of transdom. That mind virus goes pretty quick with social contagion.  It can take a sane 8 year old girl and transition her to a "boy" in less than 5 years.  It can take a healthy male who says they'll never get the surgery and in under a decade their genetalia is thrown into a trashcan. When you are looking at left wing gender conversion therapy its pretty virulent.  Once you no longer identify as male or female, they are in the trans sphere and should be counted as such.

Yes, I'd agree that if someone no longer identifies as male or female, that means they are transgender.

However, someone who is gay - i.e. who has always identified and been known as male, but is attracted to other men - is not transgender. Likewise, someone who has always identified as female and is a lesbian isn't transgender.

The survey you linked to said that 20% of Gen Z identified as LGBT, and that most LGBT people were bisexual, lesbian, or gay - but not transgender. Only around 2% were transgender.

That is a similar percentage to the WotC survey that found that 1% of respondents identified as non-binary (i.e. neither male nor female).

Quote from: jhkim on June 01, 2023, 01:04:17 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2023, 01:53:56 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:27:33 AM
20% of Gen Z have some form of mental illness in gender identity, so those numbers they got for gen z are probably not right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

The link you give says that 20% of Gen Z identifies as LGBT. Among LGBT people, it says

QuoteMore than half of LGBT Americans, 57%, indicate they are bisexual. That percentage translates to 4.0% of all U.S. adults. Meanwhile, 21% of LGBT Americans say they are gay, 14% lesbian, 10% transgender and 4% something else.

So only around 2% of Gen Z identify as transgender.

How many of them no longer identify as male or female, are they trans now, you could ask the tootsie roll owl how many pronouns it takes to trans, but if they aren't male or female, congrats they are in the wonderful world of transdom. That mind virus goes pretty quick with social contagion.  It can take a sane 8 year old girl and transition her to a "boy" in less than 5 years.  It can take a healthy male who says they'll never get the surgery and in under a decade their genetalia is thrown into a trashcan. When you are looking at left wing gender conversion therapy its pretty virulent.  Once you no longer identify as male or female, they are in the trans sphere and should be counted as such.

Yes, I'd agree that if someone no longer identifies as male or female, that means they are transgender.

However, someone who is gay - i.e. who has always identified and been known as male, but is attracted to other men - is not transgender. Likewise, someone who has always identified as female and is a lesbian isn't transgender.

The survey you linked to said that 20% of Gen Z identified as LGBT, and that most LGBT people were bisexual, lesbian, or gay - but not transgender. Only around 2% were transgender.

That is a similar percentage to the WotC survey that found that 1% of respondents identified as non-binary (i.e. neither male nor female).

It's an online survey, and looking at the LFG at D&D beyond, the amount of trans present is closer to 7% not < 0.05%.  They would enter male or female how they feel for the day (if gender fluid) or chose to identify.  There are going to be issues now in the US when going with a leftwing company for demographic surveys.  Its how you feel for the day not what you actually are.  It you ask a trans dude to identify as their sex, they are going to ree if they are the lefts versions of transgender and not a normie trans.

Quote from: Orphan81 on May 31, 2023, 04:03:49 PM
I just wonder how long Wizards can keep the gravy train rolling.

Despite the OGL Debacle, Despite sending Pinkertons to someone's house, despite microtransactions and everything else..

They're business is BOOMING.

They recently announced a 20% Price Hike on all their books going forward...

Hey, man. Pinkerton goons ain't cheap...

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:27:33 AM
20% of Gen Z have some form of mental illness in gender identity, so those numbers they got for gen z are probably not right.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 01, 2023, 01:07:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 01, 2023, 01:04:17 PM
The survey you linked to said that 20% of Gen Z identified as LGBT, and that most LGBT people were bisexual, lesbian, or gay - but not transgender. Only around 2% were transgender.

That is a similar percentage to the WotC survey that found that 1% of respondents identified as non-binary (i.e. neither male nor female).

It's an online survey, and looking at the LFG at D&D beyond, the amount of trans present is closer to 7% not < 0.05%.  They would enter male or female how they feel for the day (if gender fluid) or chose to identify.  There are going to be issues now in the US when going with a leftwing company for demographic surveys.

Dude, you're the one who cited the Gallup survey. You claimed 20% of Gen Z was transgender, but the link that you yourself cited said 2%. You're implying under-reporting, but Gen Z are often proud to report they are transgender. Most of the younger people that I know are fine with the label "transgender". Thus, I don't think they're particularly under-reporting.

I don't know how you're estimating 7% of LFG in D&D Beyond. I don't have a paid account so I can't see. Even if it is approximately 7%, that could just mean that LFG posts aren't a representative sample of players as a whole.

Quote from: S'mon on May 29, 2023, 02:44:15 AM
I GM'd for one of those black players, Dionne, later in my own Wilderlands campaign. When her PC died, she had the choice of raising that PC, or raising Nemesis, an NPC, and playing her as her future PC. Nemesis was a very blonde, very topless, very German, Amazon - pic included. Dionne grabbed Nemesis' character sheet with both hands, taking it away from the Spanish guy who was also slavering over it.  ;D She played Nemesis for years, long after another guy took over that campaign (stealing my players!).  :o

So, I'd say two things can both be true:

1. Black nerds like cool black stuff. I remember the first Black Panther movie was really popular with African friends of mine, former students.
2. Black nerds like cool non-black stuff, including un-PC stuff.

The dark secret of gaming is that people will choose powerful representations over accurate ones any day, and even the activists want their disabilities represented in game to empower them.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 07:51:02 PM


Their business isn't booming.  A lot of players are peeling away.  Their most recent woke books aren't selling.  I laugh still seeing the same two radiant citadel books at my local hobby shop.  I warned the owner about WotC putting in some really weird politics since Mearls got axed. 

Nothing you just said is accurate except what happened at your one hobby store. Their business is booming - provably, objectively, on the record in literally one of the few legally enforceable methods to prove true statements kind of way (quarterly reports filed with the Government for a publicly traded entity). Their recent books are selling - people track the sales numbers on Amazon, know how to convert those numbers to quantity sold, and they are provably selling well.

You've told a lie to yourself which is fine. But you can't get away with telling a lie to everyone else without being called on it. It's absolutely fine you don't like what WOTC has been publishing. It's not OK to declare it must be true others don't like it and to fake claims about their sales numbers because you saw something at your hobby store.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on May 31, 2023, 10:34:53 PM
I'm familiar with Hasbro financials.  Does this look like D&D is doing well?  In a financial unit, if its doing well they will separate it by name to highlight its sales, they didn't do that for D&D, they grouped D&D with MTG in the results. 

False. In the stockholders meeting they announced the D&D numbers. We discussed it here and elsewhere. Those statements were governed as forward looking statements to the same extent as the written reports. We know, with certainty, it's doing well.

QuoteThe pandemic is over, there is no more fertilizer to D&D sales.  You are telling me, that after WotC decided to shit on the OGL, send the Pinkertons to harass a former fan of them and had D&D Exec Producer imply that either white men need to go from D&D or white men need to leave WotC, they did well with the fans on sales?

To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it (most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back). The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

You have inflated yourself into thinking you represent the whole. Like you did with your one game store.

It's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting. D&D is way up. Each quarter has beaten the last.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
It's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting.

When was this stockholders meeting?

It would seem odd but not impossible if D&D book sales are increasing ahead of the 2024 relaunch. Usually sales dip as people wait for the new stuff.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

Quote from: S'mon on June 10, 2023, 02:49:40 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
It's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting.

When was this stockholders meeting?

It would seem odd but not impossible if D&D book sales are increasing ahead of the 2024 relaunch. Usually sales dip as people wait for the new stuff.

Dude, you gotta understand, some people are below the mean who you can explain on an 8th grade level and teach them, then there are other people who unfortunately are sitting in the 80 range who can't learn.  You have to figure out who those people are and ignore the douchebags, otherwise its like trying to teach intro trig to a cat, its a waste of time.  Let the stupid people be stupid, its fun to watch them try to pull open a push door type of thing.

Quote from: S'mon on May 24, 2023, 07:00:26 PM
60-40 seems about right to me too. Back in 3e days it was more like 75-25; back in 1e days it was more like 90-10.

All that varies massively from table to table though. Some were skewed every which way.

Quote from: Aglondir on June 10, 2023, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

And even with all of that, Mistwell is right.

None of this has impacted their bottom line one bit. They're selling better than they ever have. As much as you want D&D to fail, it's not, nor does it show any signs of doing so. I don't like it, but you have to face up to the truth. THEIR CUSTOMER BASE DIDN'T CARE.

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 10, 2023, 03:08:07 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 10, 2023, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

And even with all of that, Mistwell is right.

None of this has impacted their bottom line one bit. They're selling better than they ever have. As much as you want D&D to fail, it's not, nor does it show any signs of doing so. I don't like it, but you have to face up to the truth. THEIR CUSTOMER BASE DIDN'T CARE.

No, Mistwell is very wrong regardless of how right they were regarding the financials. The Pinkerton thing is exactly the kind of abuse of power we should all be worried about, and the fact most don't care (or worse are claiming it's a lie) is exceedingly worrisome.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on June 13, 2023, 08:13:52 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 10, 2023, 03:08:07 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 10, 2023, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

And even with all of that, Mistwell is right.

None of this has impacted their bottom line one bit. They're selling better than they ever have. As much as you want D&D to fail, it's not, nor does it show any signs of doing so. I don't like it, but you have to face up to the truth. THEIR CUSTOMER BASE DIDN'T CARE.

No, Mistwell is very wrong regardless of how right they were regarding the financials. The Pinkerton thing is exactly the kind of abuse of power we should all be worried about, and the fact most don't care (or worse are claiming it's a lie) is exceedingly worrisome.

There's no disagreement from me there. I'm with you on the Pinkerton thing being a horrible display of abuse and power. But Mistwell was right about everything else.

Guys like HoneyDipper want to live in a fantasy world where D&D and Wotc are actually punished for this kind of shit.. But it's not there. Wotc is thriving and doing awesome and all accounts point to 6th edition being a massive seller.

They successfully brought in a new entire audience with 5th edition, Stranger Things and Critical Role. They don't care about their old audience, and the new audience knows nothing of any other rpg.

They're basically the Budweiser drinkers of Rpgs. It's going to take something massive to dethrone them, like Budweiser was dethroned. I just don't think we've reached that tipping point yet.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AMIt's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting. D&D is way up. Each quarter has beaten the last.

Here's a chart from page 7 of the 2022 annual report showing massive growth in MTG over the last four years. I apologize for the size but I wanted to post it unmodified. Last year's annual report spends two whole pages talking about Magic the Gathering but the only mentions of D&D were in reference to the movie and to D&D's expansion into "digital gaming" via D&D Beyond.

Sometimes I think that you don't actually read these financial reports.

(https://investor.hasbro.com/system/files-encrypted/nasdaq_kms/inline-images/MTG_1200x700.png)

[EDIT] Here are some key quotes from various earnings call:

July 2022: "Growth in several gaming brands including YAHTZEE, led by digital gaming, and AVALON HILL's HeroQuest did not offset a decline in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS related to the 2021 release of Dark Alliance." D&D sales were bad enough to cancel out the profits from HeroQuest

October 2022: "Forecasting double-digit growth in MAGIC this year led by strong growth in tabletop" No mention of D&D sales

February 2023: "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS down in the quarter mostly due to digital comp"

April 2023: "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS up 13% in the quarter" Finally a quarter where D&D is up. But is it up enough to cancel out the previous nine months of decline?


So, out of the previous year, D&D was up in one quarter and down in two. Yet the one quarter of growth is the only one that is widely reported amongst D&D fans. This is leading to the perception that D&D is constantly growing when it is clearly not.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on June 13, 2023, 08:13:52 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 10, 2023, 03:08:07 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on June 10, 2023, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
To 99% of fans they fixed the OGL thing. And literally almost nobody even knows about the Pinkertons thing much less give a shit about it...

Wrong.

https://gizmodo.com › magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-pinkertons-1850374546
https://knowyourmeme.com › memes › events › wizards-of-the-coast-hiring-pinkertons-controversy
https://www.engadget.com › magic-the-gathering-publisher-wizards-of-the-coast-sent-the-pinkerto
https://www.reddit.com › r › MTGRumors › comments › 12xsi1x › wotcs_use_of_the_pinkertons_to_re
https://www.cbr.com › mtg-wotc-sent-pinkertons-confiscate-leaker-cards
https://kotaku.com › magic-the-gathering-pinkerton-youtube-wotc-mtg-1850372856
https://www.gamespot.com › articles › wizards-of-the-coast-sends-pinkertons-to-youtubers-house-for
https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › us › wizards-of-the-coast-has-reportedly-used-pinkertons-multip

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
(most of that story was a lie anyway - it was not security it was investigators, and the family they went to were not in fear of thugs they had a nice brief conversation and got free stuff in exchange for giving the stuff accidently shipped to them back).

Wrong.

Quote from: CBR.comoldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons reportedly demanded the return of the "stolen" cards, which he says he purchased from his friend. The agents ultimately took back the cards, boxes and foil wrappers, even counting the cards to ensure they retrieved them all. The agents also demanded he remove his MTG leak videos. During the incident, oldschoolmtg stated that the Pinkertons mentioned the potential of "jail time" to him and his wife.

Quote from: EngadgetAfter recovering the leaked Magic: The Gathering set, including the empty boxes and wrappers, the Pinkertons put Oldschoolmtg in touch with a Wizards of the Coast representative, who was "very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen."

Quote from: Wikipedia article on WOTCIn April 2023, Wizards of the Coast sent Pinkerton agents to the house of a Magic: The Gathering YouTuber, demanding that he destroy cards he had been accidentally sent from an unreleased set and to remove videos from his channel, or he and his wife would face a $200,000 fine on top of prison time.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AM
The white men thing exists almost entirely here, in a teeny tiny microcosm of non-fans. NOBODY gave a shit about that relative to their customer base.

Wrong. Do a You Tube search.

And even with all of that, Mistwell is right.

None of this has impacted their bottom line one bit. They're selling better than they ever have. As much as you want D&D to fail, it's not, nor does it show any signs of doing so. I don't like it, but you have to face up to the truth. THEIR CUSTOMER BASE DIDN'T CARE.

No, Mistwell is very wrong regardless of how right they were regarding the financials. The Pinkerton thing is exactly the kind of abuse of power we should all be worried about, and the fact most don't care (or worse are claiming it's a lie) is exceedingly worrisome.

I appreciate you trying be careful about my pronouns, but I am a he. :)

The Pinkerton thing is a bunch of blown up nonsense by fantasy fans who think the Pinkertons are 1920s villains as opposed to (for their INVESTIGATORS unit rather than security unit, which this was) a lot of mostly overweight office workers who follow up on data.  There was no "abuse of power" and THE GUYS WHO WERE INVOLVED WITH THIS SAID THIS WAS NO BIG DEAL AND IT ALL SETTLED OUT FINE AND THEY GOT A BUNCH OF FREE STUFF OVER IT IN THE END AND MOSTLY AMMOUNTED TO AN ACCIDENT.

You want everyone to imagine mustache twirling villain's or thugs with guns.  You want people to imagine some poor family had their door broken down and held up for some magic cards. You don't want them to imagine what really happened - which was pretty benign.

WOTC initially thought someone stole some new cards. They rapidly figured out it was all a mistake on their part and their own guys had accidentally shipped someone the new cards prior to them being released. They got the new cards back (not by force - voluntarily once the recipient realized it was an error), and gave the person a bunch of free stuff and their money back in exchange. The only "fear" was the initial confusion in the first five minutes of opening the door to some guys claiming they might have stolen the cards, which rapidly resolved with ordinary explanations and phone calls.

This isn't abuse of power. No guns were involved, no threats of violence (or any other threat) was made. I suspect if the name of the investigation company were anything other than Pinkertons and the events had otherwise gone down identically you wouldn't be spinning this fantasy scenario you and some others spun, because there are all these legends surrounding the Pinkerton name due to them being such an old organization. But if you think this was actually an abuse of power you live a deeply privileged life where somehow you've never encountered actual abuse of power where meaningful things happen.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 13, 2023, 02:57:40 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AMIt's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting. D&D is way up. Each quarter has beaten the last.

Here's a chart from page 7 of the 2022 annual report showing massive growth in MTG over the last four years. I apologize for the size but I wanted to post it unmodified. Last year's annual report spends two whole pages talking about Magic the Gathering but the only mentions of D&D were in reference to the movie and to D&D's expansion into "digital gaming" via D&D Beyond.

I read them. We were discussing the Q1 2023 report, where they mentioned all this. Note MTG had already flattened out for all of 2022. That trend continued. It was D&D which ticked upwards.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 13, 2023, 05:17:02 PMI read them. We were discussing the Q1 2023 report, where they mentioned all this. Note MTG had already flattened out for all of 2022. That trend continued. It was D&D which ticked upwards.

The VERY FIRST bullet point in the Q1 2023 report was "MAGIC: THE GATHERING revenue increases 16% Year-Over-Year"

In the management remarks in this same earnings call we get this tidbit: "MAGIC: THE GATHERING was a standout performer, growing 16%, particularly
impressive given its 40% growth in Q4"

MTG has not, in any way, "flattenned out". It is growing faster than D&D even though it is already significantly larger than D&D. Plus, as I showed in my previous post, D&D posted a decrease in revenue in two of the previous four quarters.


BTW-For anyone playing along at home, I'm getting all this data from Hasbro's own investor page at:
https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/events/

Comparing magic & D&D sales is comparing the attendance at a casino to the popularity of a TV show.

They have different draws. MTG is for addicts.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 13, 2023, 06:36:32 PM
The VERY FIRST bullet point in the Q1 2023 report was "MAGIC: THE GATHERING revenue increases 16% Year-Over-Year"

In the management remarks in this same earnings call we get this tidbit: "MAGIC: THE GATHERING was a standout performer, growing 16%, particularly
impressive given its 40% growth in Q4"

MTG has not, in any way, "flattenned out". It is growing faster than D&D even though it is already significantly larger than D&D. Plus, as I showed in my previous post, D&D posted a decrease in revenue in two of the previous four quarters.

BTW-For anyone playing along at home, I'm getting all this data from Hasbro's own investor page at:
https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/events/

Thanks, hedgehobbit. One can also search for similar presentations earlier. Here's Q4 2020 and 2021.

https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/events/event-details/hasbro-fourth-quarter-2020-earnings-conference-call

https://investor.hasbro.com/events/event-details/hasbro-fourth-quarter-2021-earnings-conference-call

It looks to me that D&D grew overall in 2020 and 2021 according to the text, though they don't report numbers for D&D separately.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2023, 06:44:28 PM
Comparing magic & D&D sales is comparing the attendance at a casino to the popularity of a TV show.

I realize that. MTG revenue is an order of magnitude higher than that of D&D. However, the reason it is being discussed is that Hasbro seldomly break out the sales numbers for D&D in their official filing but rather group it in with MTG to show Wizards of the Coast sales. What happens is that people see Hasbro reporting that "WotC revenue increased 16%" and then use that as evidence that D&D sales have increased 16% when that's not what Hasbro said and D&D sales can go down while WotC sales go up.

It's further obfuscated by the fact that Hasbro often switches between quarter to quarter growth and year over year growth making it almost impossible to track what is really going on.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 14, 2023, 10:02:49 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2023, 06:44:28 PM
Comparing magic & D&D sales is comparing the attendance at a casino to the popularity of a TV show.

I realize that. MTG revenue is an order of magnitude higher than that of D&D. However, the reason it is being discussed is that Hasbro seldomly break out the sales numbers for D&D in their official filing but rather group it in with MTG to show Wizards of the Coast sales. What happens is that people see Hasbro reporting that "WotC revenue increased 16%" and then use that as evidence that D&D sales have increased 16% when that's not what Hasbro said and D&D sales can go down while WotC sales go up.

It's further obfuscated by the fact that Hasbro often switches between quarter to quarter growth and year over year growth making it almost impossible to track what is really going on.

Marketing is for shareholders as much as for customers... if you can't show success, baffling them with bullshit is standard operating procedure.

It's also worth noting that Cynthia Williams has promised to make D&D a Billion Dollar Product.
This would be like if someone promised to make kumquats the best selling vegetable in Montana.

And from what I can see, it was based on a badly-thought-out entirely theoretical plan that has already fallen apart.

The question of "how much money has D&D really made so far" or whether it's been having consistent growth or has in fact been trending down is almost irrelevant when you realize how many multiples of what it currently makes it would need to do to fulfill what Williams has insanely promised the shareholders.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:26:43 PM
It's also worth noting that Cynthia Williams has promised to make D&D a Billion Dollar Product.
This would be like if someone promised to make kumquats the best selling vegetable in Montana.

And from what I can see, it was based on a badly-thought-out entirely theoretical plan that has already fallen apart.

The question of "how much money has D&D really made so far" or whether it's been having consistent growth or has in fact been trending down is almost irrelevant when you realize how many multiples of what it currently makes it would need to do to fulfill what Williams has insanely promised the shareholders.

I'd love for Wizard's of the Coast to go out of business, and lose the copyright to D&D among other things... where it could be taken up by another company... and they may very well do that by pushing forward with the outer marketing things like Movies and TV Shows and seeing them fail.

The question here right now though... IS D&D the tabletop RPG failing right now? All signs seem to point to NO.

My theory is that 5th edition D&D's base is not made up of the roleplaying base that existed BEFORE it.... A lot of us jumped onto 5th edition when it released, because it was a lot of fun at the time.

But years later with Wizard's mismanagment, that original scene of players who existed before 5th edition, largely migrated away from it to other games.

In that time though, a combination of Matt Mercer (Whose huge in the Anime community so brought in all his fans from there) with Critical role, Stranger Things, Big Bang Theory, and other kitchy Normie dork adjacent stuff brought in an entire new wave of players... Which normally would be good... But WotC snatched them all up... and as I eluded to before... these folks are the Budwieser drinkers of RPG fans (Bud before the current controversy) they don't care about any other games.... they know D&D they like it's shiny production values... they like playing their Tumblr, Deviant art esq games, or are the 'allies' who want to be on the rightside of history, or just don't know any better... it's all they want..

These are the people who are keeping D&D number 1.... It's why Wotc is doing everything they can not to call the new edition "6th" edition.

But despite a price hike, despite controversies with the OGL and Pinkertons, this group doesn't care and continues to make D&D number 1...

I really do believe, when WotC launches their subscription service to play online, we'll see a clean break, completely between this audience and the rest of the tabletop community. WotC has built their walled garden, and their happy with it... and the people inside of it want nothing else.

It's going to take an even greater controversy to dethrone D&D and if the Subscription model DOES take off? Where you have these folks forking over 15 bucks a month, with microtransactions for new skins and cool dice effects? D&D very well might become a Billion Dollar brand.

 I think D&D stays at the top of RPGs for the rest of my life.  I do not think its good or for me, but MacDonalds sucks ass as food and it makes shitloads of cash and all sorts of mouth breathers eat it.  I can not say MacDonalds is not a big success despite me not liking it.   So I hope D&D does as well as it can.  I do think they might screw up and pull a 4th edition move...but I have doubts as to there being a player big enough to do what Pathfinder pulled off for a short bit again.    If more women are playing than ever before great.  Who ever should play however they want.  If they like being preached to...good for them.   

   I do think we worry a bit too much (those of us who just do not care for D&D or WOTC) about D&D at times.  There are enough ways to get good projects off the ground these days that with the internet to connect people, there is a niche for everyone.  Find your niche IMO and have fun. 

Quote from: oggsmash on June 16, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
I think D&D stays at the top of RPGs for the rest of my life.  I do not think its good or for me, but MacDonalds sucks ass as food and it makes shitloads of cash and all sorts of mouth breathers eat it.  I can not say MacDonalds is not a big success despite me not liking it.   So I hope D&D does as well as it can.  I do think they might screw up and pull a 4th edition move...but I have doubts as to there being a player big enough to do what Pathfinder pulled off for a short bit again.    If more women are playing than ever before great.  Who ever should play however they want.  If they like being preached to...good for them.   

   I do think we worry a bit too much (those of us who just do not care for D&D or WOTC) about D&D at times.  There are enough ways to get good projects off the ground these days that with the internet to connect people, there is a niche for everyone.  Find your niche IMO and have fun. 

As someone who's never played D&D (past a handful of sessions of 4e), I appreciate it for pulling people who otherwise wouldn't be into the hobby.

I read today about a group of 50-something guys who decided to try something other than their usual 5e, and ran a D&D adventure module using BoL Mythic. Their creativity and roleplaying would blossom in the new rules-lite system, and they ended up adopting it as their primary game. Likewise, it's my hope that a sizeable fraction of people who play D&D eventually move on to other systems depending on their tastes.