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Dungeons & Dragons.

3.5 vs. 4th edition.

Alright, I've noticed a trend the past 6 weeks or so at the store.

I'm getting more and more people looking for either 3.5 D&D or 3.5/OGL compatible stuff. Getting less and less questions and 4th/e D&D.

Also, when two young ladies stopped in Christmas shopping for the brother of one of them I had to qualify with questions which version of D&D her brother plays or owns. She described his Player's Handbook as "..brown and it looks like it has a buckle or lock on it , the way its decorated..." When I showed her what 3.5 books we still had, she said "Yeah, the name part looks the same. "  (She meant the logo.)


As for PATHFINDER......

When I point out to browsers looking for 3.5 D&D stuff that PATHFINDER/PAIZO will be making new stuff thats basically pretty close to 3.5 - they got interested, smile, and thank me for letting them know. One guy even said "You just made my day, maybe my week."


Yes , I know all the above is anecdotal evidence from the store I work at.
 It still may be interesting and useful info to some of you.

- Ed C.

I see similar trends here around the LGS.

4th ed had a strong start and still is pretty prevalent at our LGS (especially among the more casual players), but there are more non-4e campaigns (whether it's 3.5 or something other than D&D), especially among the hobbyists.  The books and modules literally just sit on the shelf (they've even managed to move more Exalted 2e books, thanks to me) and only one or two people ever bother with the supplements.  Modules just do not sell.  No one wants them or any of the adventures.

Meanwhile, I still can't get a copy of Pathfinder at the LGS.  Every time I walk into that place, it's missing.  I'd order from Amazon for the discount, but buying from my LGS makes me feel all warm and bubbly inside.  It also doesn't help that someone over at Amazon.com royally fucked up and they haven't stocked a set of new books, so suddenly the only way to get a copy on Amazon is to buy it from a merchant for 80-freaking-USD.  I could order it from Paizo, but I'd just end up paying more than I would at the LGS.

Still, like a few other people I know eyeing Pathfinder, I'm on the fence as to whether it's worth the switch from 3.5.  I'm tempted to just run Fantasy Craft, but it would be significantly less "D&D-esque".  

The overall trend among everyone I know is still in favor of 3.x or its variants, though.  Even the guys who aren't hardcore D&D/3.x fans I know had pretty "meh" impressions of 4e.

As much as I hate 4e its doing alright in my area, with a few people a bit excited for the 35 dollar 2 PHB set that just came out.

I have seen zero interest in Pathfinder at all.

Course if it was up to me everyone would have jumped on Castles & Crusades.  But there is no accounting for taste.

(Not to mention waiting for that goddamn Castle Keeper's Guide.)

I'm reserving judgement until 5E.  If Hasbro doesn't drop the licence, I want to see how radically it changes the system.  A big change would suggest 4E wasn't as popular as its supporters claimed back in 2009.

If my present group decides to end our 4E campaign, I don't think I would continue on DMing if they're interested in playing 3.5E/Pathfinder.  I'll just let somebody else DM.  I don't ever want to go back to DMing 3E/3.5E beyond level 10.

Maybe 5E will be a cleaned up version of 3E/3.5E with the ease of DMing of 4E.

I would predict that 5E will be quite a noticeable departure from 4E, but not necessarily because of the constant maelstrom of sour grapes being regurgitated onto the forums on a near constant basis by detractors.

5E will be a radical departure because it would need to be to justify a whole new edition. Despite what people think, we won't be seeing a 4.5 since WoTC is already selling 3 new core books a year, with errata being printed in each one...so a new edition with only minor changes will just piss people off.

When 5E does come about, I posit that the game will still feature classes, levels, races, challenges resolved by rolling d20+modifiers vs. target number...but otherwise will have evolved to reflect influences that the game has absorbed during 4e's lifespan.

One thing is for sure though, I don't think D&D will be seeing a return to the granularity and simulationist idiocy that many "hobbyist" gamers seem to enjoy.

3.5 often gets described as a commercial mistake, which would point to it never happening again. Although, the success of Pathfinder does seem to work against that idea somewhat.
 
The best way to predict what 5th edition will be like, it to watch the market as a whole and see what is popular in the run up to it.

Quote from: jadrax;3463963.5 often gets described as a commercial mistake, which would point to it never happening again. Although, the success of Pathfinder does seem to work against that idea somewhat.

The situation is not really comparable.

Pathfinder sets itself up as the Robin Hood of RPGdom.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;346416The situation is not really comparable.

Pathfinder sets itself up as the Robin Hood of RPGdom.

MAYBE, but it was based on a game system that was already very popular.

In many ways, WotC doing the switch to 4/e was like when Coca-Cola tried to make "New Coke" their main drink - people complained and rebelled. So Coca-Cola wound up going back to original formula Coke.
Trouble is, WotC isn't likely to go back to 3.5 in this case.



- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;346364Yes , I know all the above is anecdotal evidence from the store I work at.
 It still may be interesting and useful info to some of you.

- Ed C.

Sort of like a last beacon of hope!

Quote from: Koltar;346364Yes , I know all the above is anecdotal evidence from the store I work at.
 It still may be interesting and useful info to some of you.

Interesting and useful? Why, anecdotal evidence (http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/4442/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_4_last) is the best kind of "evidence (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game/Jason-Bulmahn/e/9781601251831/?itm=1&usri=pathfinder+roleplaying+game+the+pathfinder+bestiary)" of all! Particularly when it comes from some creepy dude who professes to hate 4e because it's caused him emotional distress!

Seanchai

Quote from: Koltar;3463643.5 vs. 4th edition.

Alright, I've noticed a trend the past 6 weeks or so at the store...

Sadly, Ed, you haven't exactly proven yourself as an impartial observer where your opinions may be involved.  See, for example, your many posts regarding candidate/President Obama where you start to the effect of "I don't personally have anything against the guy..." then promptly go on to slag him with unflattering anecdotes and comparisons.

You're on record as saying you don't like 4e, so I don't have a lot of faith that you're not looking for the most unflattering examples of 4e sales and play.  It's called Observer Bias, and you got it in spades.

!i!

Gamers aren't rich ... something WotC and WW need to be reminded of again, most cannot afford to buy whole new sets to "upgrade" as we are now talking hundreds of dollars. So this is not a big surprise. WW recently started following WotC's formula, which is why I now include them.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;346456You're on record as saying you don't like 4e, so I don't have a lot of faith that you're not looking for the most unflattering examples of 4e sales and play.  It's called Observer Bias, and you got it in spades.

!i!

No I don't.

 My Gamer/player persona is pretty easy to seperate from my store worker/Assistant manager persona and point of view.

If someone is looking for 4th edition D&D - I happily show them where it is and tell them the newest books we have in from delivery.

- Ed C.


As to your other comments related to the current President. This forum no longer has a politics sub-forum or even an 'other' sub-forum. That part of your post is pretty much irrelevent.

Quote from: KittenKoder;346458Gamers aren't rich ... something WotC and WW need to be reminded of again, most cannot afford to buy whole new sets to "upgrade" as we are now talking hundreds of dollars.

Not rich, perhaps, but with (relatively) lots of disposable income.  There's a sweet spot there between roughly the age of 20 and 30 where one is earning well, but isn't saddled with children and a mortgage.

I think the more telling issue is the general state of the economy and the high unemployment rate.  That "sweet spot" I mentioned above has shrunk drastically in the last two years.

!i!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;346426Sort of like a last beacon of hope!

You're not seriously comparing Koltar to Obi Wan are you? :D

Quote from: Koltar;346460My Gamer/player persona is pretty easy to seperate from my store worker/Assistant manager persona and point of view.

I'd hope so, and I imagine you keep it in check at the store.  However, I'm referring to the content of your posts here, where I don't think you exercise such restraint.

QuoteAs to your other comments related to the current President. This forum no longer has a politics sub-forum or even an 'other' sub-forum. That part of your post is pretty much irrelevent.

It's entirely relevant, Ed.  Even without a dedicated politics forum, you manage to find opportunities to express your political commentary -- like Pundy's forum (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=342539&postcount=86).

!i!

Quote from: One Horse Town;346462You're not seriously comparing Koltar to Obi Wan are you? :D

I got the beard pretty close to Alec Guinness at times - tho I'm closer to the Ewan McGregor look. Just got to find the biege & brown robes.

One of my players does use 'padawan' as part of her e-mail handle.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KittenKoder;346458Gamers aren't rich ... something WotC and WW need to be reminded of again, most cannot afford to buy whole new sets to "upgrade" as we are now talking hundreds of dollars. So this is not a big surprise. WW recently started following WotC's formula, which is why I now include them.

Those of us that can, won't.  It's getting harder and harder to justify buying anything new but miniatures.  Not out of lack of money, but lack of interest.

Gaming is almost the biggest part of my budget, because I don't really need anything.

I mean, more miniatures is usually right behind whatever the hell my daughter wants whenever she wants it on my list of things to buy.

Sometimes you don't look twice at these things.  I was in a FLGS with my buddy that stocked 4e, some 3.5e and Pathfinder.  I laughed at 4e, pointed to the frivolity of 3.5e, and actually picked up the Pathfinder book.  

They had a ton of 4e, a bunch of 3.5 and one Pathfinder book.

This isn't my normal store, it's in another town an hour away.  Is it like this most places?

We didn't even buy any Magic because Garruk vs Lilliana was like priced at 35 bux.  Not that I wanted that, but it was enough to make me leave the store.  Oh, I bought a Warhammer Novel.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;346461Not rich, perhaps, but with (relatively) lots of disposable income.  There's a sweet spot there between roughly the age of 20 and 30 where one is earning well, but isn't saddled with children and a mortgage.

I think the more telling issue is the general state of the economy and the high unemployment rate.  That "sweet spot" I mentioned above has shrunk drastically in the last two years.

!i!

Not entirely ... I started gaming much younger, 12 I believe, and had almost no income save a paper route and babysitting. Right now I have "disposable" income, yet still could never buy all new books every year. What they seem to be doing is catering to the WoW crowd who are always looking for the next "improvement" instead of hobbyists who make up the largest portion of the gaming community. Fanpro and Wizkids have a great model for their gaming materials, new versions are essentially house rules canonized or modules/accessories/expansions being merged into the corebooks. Eden Studios has another good model for business in the gaming industry, everything is the exact same game system, just different approaches and genres. But meh ... their models will be truly tested in longevity, there are no bailouts for gaming companies. ;) White Wolf is already struggling because of their recent massive "upgrade" (as well as the closing of their primary chat game). It would be interesting to see exactly what percentage of their profits WotC makes on what product, due to their wide scope I don't see them dying anytime soon.

Quote from: Blackhand;346467Those of us that can, won't.  It's getting harder and harder to justify buying anything new but miniatures.  Not out of lack of money, but lack of interest.

Gaming is almost the biggest part of my budget, because I don't really need anything.

I mean, more miniatures is usually right behind whatever the hell my daughter wants whenever she wants it on my list of things to buy.

Sometimes you don't look twice at these things.  I was in a FLGS with my buddy that stocked 4e, some 3.5e and Pathfinder.  I laughed at 4e, pointed to the frivolity of 3.5e, and actually picked up the Pathfinder book.  

They had a ton of 4e, a bunch of 3.5 and one Pathfinder book.

This isn't my normal store, it's in another town an hour away.  Is it like this most places?

We didn't even buy any Magic because Garruk vs Lilliana was like priced at 35 bux.  Not that I wanted that, but it was enough to make me leave the store.  Oh, I bought a Warhammer Novel.

Aaah ... I concede to that point. Financial intelligence is another factor.

When I play 4th edition,I usually feel like playaing WoW when combat situations arrise.I don t feel it s a bad game, thought.But I d rather play 3.5...I mean, "Stab and grab" "Nimbus of doom" Crap...I feel like I m pressing skill buttons!

Kitten Koder: Eden has TWO systems, very closely related, but distinct: Unisystem and Cinematic Unisystem; the differences are just enough to trip people up badly.

Quote from: aramis;346485Kitten Koder: Eden has TWO systems, very closely related, but distinct: Unisystem and Cinematic Unisystem; the differences are just enough to trip people up badly.

I stand corrected, thanks. I only thought they had the Unisystem.

Quote from: KittenKoder;346492I stand corrected, thanks. I only thought they had the Unisystem.

Cinematic is d10 only, uses NPC's with combat totals but no rolls, PC's dodges/parries/evasions are rolled vs fixed combat totals, damages fixed plus SL, armor fixed value. Games include BTVS, Angel, Ghosts of Avalon, Army of Darkness

Full Unisystem is nearly-full range of polyhedral dice (tho' d10 and d6 get the vast majority, d4, d8, d10, and d12 are used for damages), NPCs get full stats and make rolls, damage is rolled, armor rolled. Games include Witchcraft, AFMBE, Terra Primate, Conspiracy X.

Difference level is comparable to AD&D 2 vs D&D RC. Close enough to borrow stuff across, different enough to throw people.

When I played BTVS, the GM (an AFMBE fan) kept adding a d10 roll to the combat scores, and couldn't figure out why we were having such a hard time of it.

Quote from: aramis;346512Cinematic is d10 only, uses NPC's with combat totals but no rolls, PC's dodges/parries/evasions are rolled vs fixed combat totals, damages fixed plus SL, armor fixed value. Games include BTVS, Angel, Ghosts of Avalon, Army of Darkness

Full Unisystem is nearly-full range of polyhedral dice (tho' d10 and d6 get the vast majority, d4, d8, d10, and d12 are used for damages), NPCs get full stats and make rolls, damage is rolled, armor rolled. Games include Witchcraft, AFMBE, Terra Primate, Conspiracy X.

Difference level is comparable to AD&D 2 vs D&D RC. Close enough to borrow stuff across, different enough to throw people.

When I played BTVS, the GM (an AFMBE fan) kept adding a d10 roll to the combat scores, and couldn't figure out why we were having such a hard time of it.

I know the Unisystem, the full range of dice is what attracted me plus the point based design.

Quote from: Koltar;346465I got the beard pretty close to Alec Guinness at times - tho I'm closer to the Ewan McGregor look. Just got to find the biege & brown robes.

- Ed C.

:huhsign: Seriously, are you that divorced from reality?

Quote from: KittenKoder;346515I know the Unisystem, the full range of dice is what attracted me plus the point based design.

I only do cinematic... full range of dice is a turn off for me.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSadly, Ed, you haven't exactly proven yourself as an impartial observer where your opinions may be involved. See, for example, your many posts regarding candidate/President Obama where you start to the effect of "I don't personally have anything against the guy..." then promptly go on to slag him with unflattering anecdotes and comparisons.

You're on record as saying you don't like 4e, so I don't have a lot of faith that you're not looking for the most unflattering examples of 4e sales and play. It's called Observer Bias, and you got it in spades.

Quote from: Koltar;346460No I don't.

 My Gamer/player persona is pretty easy to seperate from my store worker/Assistant manager persona and point of view.

If someone is looking for 4th edition D&D - I happily show them where it is and tell them the newest books we have in from delivery.

- Ed C.


As to your other comments related to the current President. This forum no longer has a politics sub-forum or even an 'other' sub-forum. That part of your post is pretty much irrelevent.

Yes you do have bias. You even point it out in your post. And I quote "If someone is looking for 4th edition D&D - I happily show them where it is and tell them the newest books we have in from delivery"
So if they are looking for it you point it out. But say if they came in looking for just an RPG you might not then? Because by saying you would point it out if they were looking you seem to indicate that if they were not you might steer them in a different direction. Not to mention I'm sure you've never uttered the phrase, "but GURPS can do it all.":rolleyes:
Also the presidential post are totally relevent. They are proof of your thinking processes. It doesnt matter that we no longer have access to said political forum. Your just hiding behind the fact that one can no longer see your hippocracy, so in your mind it does not exist.

A world where space aliens zap away all rpg books and our memories of anything and everything rpg related.

Quote from: One Horse Town;346462You're not seriously comparing Koltar to Obi Wan are you? :D

Muhammad, I read that as Obi Wang !

Regards,
David R

Quote from: aramis;346520I only do cinematic... full range of dice is a turn off for me.

I only do Cinematic because I recently discovered that Classic is now too much work for too little reward in comparison, for me, anyway.

Since we're sharing anecdotal evidence of 4e's supposed demise, here's a reality check from another store owner.
http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2009/11/rpg-market-share.html

Quote from: Deadline247;346751Since we're sharing anecdotal evidence of 4e's supposed demise, here's a reality check from another store owner.
http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2009/11/rpg-market-share.html

I said a dropoff in sales and interest at my store that I've ntoiced.

 Didn't say anything about a "demise".

 More like a plateau or leveling off of interest and a rise in those interested in PATHFINDER and 3.5.

The 4th edition D&D will probably coast for quite awhile.


- Ed C.

I've never been sure if this "meant" anything important but...

'round these parts, the local game shops and used bookstores that get (or stock) 1e AD&D books and modules?  The stuff flies off the shelves.  I can generally guarantee that if a store in question has it one day, the next it'll be gone...

Now does that mean that the stuff is still super popular?  Does it mean that "eBay speculators" are snapping it up to sell as SUPER RARE MUST L@@K BiN $75.00 on eBay?  Does it mean that I only notice it because it is 1e stuff and it moves no faster or slower than old Larry Niven paperbacks and bagged issues of Life magazine?  

Dunno.  It's just a thing I've noticed, though.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;346753I've never been sure if this "meant" anything important but...

'round these parts, the local game shops and used bookstores that get (or stock) 1e AD&D books and modules?  The stuff flies off the shelves.  I can generally guarantee that if a store in question has it one day, the next it'll be gone...

Now does that mean that the stuff is still super popular?  Does it mean that "eBay speculators" are snapping it up to sell as SUPER RARE MUST L@@K BiN $75.00 on eBay?

My favourite used bookshop has had a 1e PHB on the shelf for 6 months because it won't sell on Ebay.

Quote from: Hairfoot;346754My favourite used bookshop has had a 1e PHB on the shelf for 6 months because it won't sell on Ebay.

And that's why I say "I'm not sure if it 'means' anything".

It's probably just a local phenomenon.

I'm sure there's probably places where there's virtually no traffic on the stuff at all (as you note, your FLUBS has had a 1e PHB for six months).

One used bookstore nearby has several 1E AD&D books and modules on the shelves, sitting there for almost a year.

I'm also in Australia.  Shipping might be prohibitive.

This is my bit of anecdotal evidence (my first post here, BTW :))

Last November I attended the "Comics & Games Fair" in Lucca, Italy - one of the biggest gaming fairs in Europe. They sold both 4E books and 3/3.5E books - the latter at a discount.

I and a friend of mine were looking for the 3E "Draconomicon". On the second day of the fair it was "sold out", but the dude at the stall told us that a new shipment was expected for the day after. So, at the end of the third day, we checked the stall again, only to learn that during the day the new shipment of books had come and gone.

"All the 'Draconomicons' you got today are already gone?"
"Yes, all FOURTY of them"

Well, since my friend was actually interested in the interior art, exp. the one by Lockwood (she is a comic book artist), I suggested her to check the 4E edition Draconomicon (which was sold at full price). She browsed the book and then she ran screaming for the hills. Let's say that 4E art is not something to learn from.

And the same happened with many other 3/3.5E books, and even books from older editions (all of them, it must be said, brand new). Some books (like 3E Forgotten Realms Setting) sold like diamonds priced as peanuts. My final comment was that "4E made former edition books cheaper, but also made people to realize how much they are worth..."

We ended up buying 'Draconomicon' via Amazon.com - which, at the end of the day, was not a bad move, given the value of the dollar vs. the euro. I ordered some other books, too. But, as of now, I'm fearing that if I wish to buy all the books I'm interested in, I will have to rush...

Full disclosure: I've dropped 3e to embrace 4e wholeheartedly, no regrets. Having said that 3e had some spectacular books for it that 4e has yet to match. The Draconomicon, in addition to the entire "monster-type" line (the undead book, the Drow book, etc), were some of my favorites. I only have a couple of the "environment" books, Cityscape and Dungeonscape, but they are quite nice as well. I can see why many of 3e's books are in such high demand and can go for quite a price.

Quote from: Reckall;346778Let's say that 4E art is not something to learn from.

Really?  I think that's one of the better things about the books, IMO.  I don't remember 3e art being anything spectacular.  In fact a lot of it was downright horrible.

Quote from: Peregrin;346816Really?  I think that's one of the better things about the books, IMO.  I don't remember 3e art being anything spectacular.  In fact a lot of it was downright horrible.

3E art, like everything else, had hit and misses. But both the general graphic design and the art in some "key" books (like, as Pete noted, the "monsters" books) were very cool. Some books resembled "scientific" tomes from the Renaissance. And in the early 3E times WotC had a good pool of artists to draw from.

The only 4E books I physically have are the two Forgotten Realms setting. The cover art is good, but the interior art... Boy! Splashes of painfully bright colors masking crude drawings (not to talk about the embarassing quality of the maps - something beyond understanding). And the layout and general graphic design are something I could do with Photoshop (and I'm not a graphic designer :rolleyes:).

I only browsed other 4E books, but I was never hit by the overall quality art (a skin impression is that, like text, art in 4E is more sparse, too). The two Draconomicons doesn't even start to compare. Every then and now I find something interesting in the 4E related art (a friend of mine showed me an elven citadel in the woods, in a recent "Dragon" which was very beautiful both in concept and tecnique) - but these findings, at least IMHO, are rarer in 4E than in 3E.

Quote from: Hairfoot;346383A big change would suggest 4E wasn't as popular as its supporters claimed back in 2009.

What do you mean? Its still 2009. How do you look back on 2009? I only started playing D&D with this new edition. I think you are seeing trends and things that arent really there just because you dont like the new edition.

Someone is missing the pointed sarcasm.  It's all right -- it's the Internet and it's sometimes hard to tell these things without code flags.

!i!

The trend is book burnings, lynchings, and total destruction. :pundit: :rant:

Hi Reckall, and welcome to the forum!

Quote from: Reckall;346778We ended up buying 'Draconomicon' via Amazon.com - which, at the end of the day, was not a bad move, given the value of the dollar vs. the euro. I ordered some other books, too. But, as of now, I'm fearing that if I wish to buy all the books I'm interested in, I will have to rush...

I'm afraid to say it, but there's no need of rush for you, as you're about two years late anyway. At the end of 2007 a lot of people got the impression that 4E would render 3E obsolete and sold their books off cheap; warehouses sold most 3E leftover stock at shockingly low prices. You could, for instance, pick up a complete Eberron collection for 50 dollars or less. But these days are gone, I'm afraid. The two books mentioned on this page earlier, Libris Mortis and Drow of the Underdark, for instance, are really hard to get (currently 150 Euros at Amazon Germany for both of them), and I consider myself lucky to recently get them for 15 Euros each from a friend. Actually, one of the few places left where someone located in Europe can get 3.5 books cheaply is Ebay UK, so I'd try that if I were you. It's the only place left where I even try to get a new PHB whenever someone new joins my group.

Art in 4E is a bit so-so. The illustration/Player's handout section in the official modules, for instance, are outstanding and outshine anything we saw in 3.5 by a wide shot. The art in Demonqueen's Enclave (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20081212b), for instance, makes even Paizo's own drow modules (which were released at about the same time) look really rather amateurish and poorly painted. That said, I sympathise a lot with people who dislike 4E art, because outside the occasional gems there's a lot of trash in the hardcovers (though you're particularly unlucky to have picked the two FR books - Eberron features vastly superior cartography). I'm not particularly happy with most of the double sided splash images they use because, as has been mentioned before, they seem to be printed at a resolution/resizing factor that sits ill with the original image. Also, I see a lot of good art in their digital venue which curiously never makes the transition into their books, and a disconcertingly high proportion of reused art (from 3E) in these books. Arcane Power, for instance, was rather poor in that regard.

If you're into RPG books for their art, I'd recommend you to check out what Paizo produced up to 2008, and pretty much anything that Black Industries and then FFG produced for the Warhammer Fantasy/40K RPG line. The latter in particular are without a doubt head and shoulders above the production values of even the finest 3.5 books. I dare you to look at Old World Bestiary and Draconomicon side by side and say something else. ;)

The most notable trend I've seen is WotC's full year Alexa.com stats. Doesn't show sales but otherwise it's a snapshot of what's going on.

Quote from: Girl;346854What do you mean? Its still 2009. How do you look back on 2009? I only started playing D&D with this new edition. I think you are seeing trends and things that arent really there just because you dont like the new edition.

It's easy to miss the context of a comment when people communicate in plain text, and normally I'd explain my meaning, but it seems as though laboured misunderstandings of very simple statements are all you post here.  I have trouble believing you're not trolling, probably as a sock-puppet of a regular poster.

Good day to you, madam.

Quote from: Windjammer;346857Hi Reckall, and welcome to the forum!

Thank you :)

QuoteI'm afraid to say it, but there's no need of rush for you, as you're about two years late anyway. At the end of 2007 a lot of people got the impression that 4E would render 3E obsolete and sold their books off cheap; warehouses sold most 3E leftover stock at shockingly low prices. You could, for instance, pick up a complete Eberron collection for 50 dollars or less. But these days are gone, I'm afraid.

Well, this is what I feared. Unfortunately, a period of economic depression barred me from taking advantage of this favorable moment - so, now that things are much better (I'm going against the grain, I know :D) I must see what the current deals are.

However, I already have the best part of the books that really interest me. "Draconomicon" was a late exception, for the simple reason that not a single dragon appeared in my D&D games since 2001 or so. I bought it on Amazon.com along with the Rules Compendium (both in "new" condition), for about 30 Euro (for both) - which, I feel was a good bargain.

QuoteThe two books mentioned on this page earlier, Libris Mortis and Drow of the Underdark, for instance, are really hard to get (currently 150 Euros at Amazon Germany for both of them), and I consider myself lucky to recently get them for 15 Euros each from a friend. Actually, one of the few places left where someone located in Europe can get 3.5 books cheaply is Ebay UK, so I'd try that if I were you. It's the only place left where I even try to get a new PHB whenever someone new joins my group.

I have both :) However, I didn't knew that they are so valuable. I'm pretty sure that at the "big 3E sale" held at Lucca's fair they were priced 15 Euro each (the fixed prices were 15 Euro for hardcovers, 12 Euro for softcover - regardless of the page numbers, edition or wathever).

QuoteArt in 4E is a bit so-so. The illustration/Player's handout section in the official modules, for instance, are outstanding and outshine anything we saw in 3.5 by a wide shot. The art in Demonqueen's Enclave (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20081212b), for instance, makes even Paizo's own drow modules (which were released at about the same time) look really rather amateurish and poorly painted. That said, I sympathise a lot with people who dislike 4E art, because outside the occasional gems there's a lot of trash in the hardcovers (though you're particularly unlucky to have picked the two FR books - Eberron features vastly superior cartography).

Well, I'm not interested in Eberron. However, I found 3E FR cartography just fine. Why they couldn't keep at least the same level of quality is beyond me. And maps like the one of the city of Loudwater are simply embarassing (but, then again, the whole Loudwater section seems to have been written by an amateur unsupervised by an editor :rolleyes:)

QuoteI'm not particularly happy with most of the double sided splash images they use because, as has been mentioned before, they seem to be printed at a resolution/resizing factor that sits ill with the original image. Also, I see a lot of good art in their digital venue which curiously never makes the transition into their books, and a disconcertingly high proportion of reused art (from 3E) in these books. Arcane Power, for instance, was rather poor in that regard.

My sad, overall feeling re: 4E is that they really went for the cheap. I'm not talking about the game system (which I don't like, but that I can throw away while keeping the creative contents). I'm talking about the "content by page" ratio (3E books were packed, 4E... well...), about the quality of such content (it is unbelievable that the company that produced the 3E Forgotten Realms setting can look at the 4E setting and say "this is the next evolutionary step!" while keeping a straight face), about the quality of writing... (as of now I'm still unable to find something useful for my campaign in the 4E FR books). And art is really sparse. And I think you are correct in assuming that probably there is a resizing problem in some illustrations: I see the very same problem popping up in comic books when, for some reason, a panel must be resized to a bigger scale. Even if you digitally tone down the lines' tickness, colors and details usually still come out as "off" - in a way that reminds me a lot of the splash pages in 4E books.

QuoteIf you're into RPG books for their art, I'd recommend you to check out what Paizo produced up to 2008, and pretty much anything that Black Industries and then FFG produced for the Warhammer Fantasy/40K RPG line. The latter in particular are without a doubt head and shoulders above the production values of even the finest 3.5 books. I dare you to look at Old World Bestiary and Draconomicon side by side and say something else. ;)

I'll do, and I'll forward your suggestions to my artist friends :) Usually I use the art for inspiration, but nowadays the internet is full of places where you can find really good fantasy/sci-fi art to fuel your ideas (*). However, I like a good looking book like everybody else, and some 3E were really worth the price.

(*) For example, I really like Dylan Cole - and he is not the kind of artist that WotC can hire to do a book :D However you can enjoy inspiration from his art at his web site: http://www.dylancolestudio.com/

If I want art ... I buy a poster ... if I want a good game, I buy old school.

Quote from: Ronin;346987Being that he specifically says the "Forgotten Realms" book. Which do you fucking think hes talking about stupid. Did you eat paint chips as a kid? Or just naturally possess a 2nd grade reading level?

Why do you chase Koltar around the internet to abuse him, even though you know you're on his ignore list?

4 of your last 7 posts are assaults on "Cocktar".  What the fucking Christ could he have done to make you so angry?

Not sure why you asked this on this thread as opposed to the one I posted that response on, but whatever.:idunno: As to your questions. I dont intentionally "chase" Cocktar (by the way I find it amusing that you used that moniker as well) around the internet. I just chastise him every time (well mostly) he says something stupid or hypocritical. He is a liar, hypocrite, ignorant, and a toadie suck up. He embodies everything (Well again mostly) I hate about internet RPG nerds. He is truely a catpiss man and a horrible representative of our shared hobby. The store he works at by his own descriptions is a joke. Not to mention for him being I believe an assistant manager. He has no idea how a retail outlet is supposed to work. Let alone how the ordering, stocking, and inventory process works. Which should be an essential peice of knowledge in his posisition. While nomally that may not be, well out of the norm. As most comic game shops are ran by comic book guy/gamers. (So to speak) As opposed to people with a plan running it like a business. Most are ran semi-public clubhouses or direct link to supplies for the owner and a cabal of insiders. (just my observation of most stores. Hopefully your local is not.) His store is specifically a corperate owned enity. So how he can not know how the ordering process works is baffling. Again this catpiss man is representing our hobby at his store. To which he is a piss poor representive of. Then finally yes I comment even though he cannot see it. This is to prove his ignorant inferences and ideas about the ignore system wrong.

Quote from: Ronin;347008Not sure why you asked this on this thread as opposed to the one I posted that response on, but whatever.:idunno: As to your questions. I dont intentionally "chase" Cocktar (by the way I find it amusing that you used that moniker as well) around the internet. I just chastise him every time (well mostly) he says something stupid or hypocritical. He is a liar, hypocrite, ignorant, and a toadie suck up. He embodies everything (Well again mostly) I hate about internet RPG nerds. He is truely a catpiss man and a horrible representative of our shared hobby. The store he works at by his own descriptions is a joke. Not to mention for him being I believe an assistant manager. He has no idea how a retail outlet is supposed to work. Let alone how the ordering, stocking, and inventory process works. Which should be an essential peice of knowledge in his posisition. While nomally that may not be, well out of the norm. As most comic game shops are ran by comic book guy/gamers. (So to speak) As opposed to people with a plan running it like a business. Most are ran semi-public clubhouses or direct link to supplies for the owner and a cabal of insiders. (just my observation of most stores. Hopefully your local is not.) His store is specifically a corperate owned enity. So how he can not know how the ordering process works is baffling. Again this catpiss man is representing our hobby at his store. To which he is a piss poor representive of. Then finally yes I comment even though he cannot see it. This is to prove his ignorant inferences and ideas about the ignore system wrong.

Jesus Christ, do you know what a fucking sentence is?  Stop by a 5th grade English class sometime soon.

Yeah, I was looking through posts and in seperate windows and chose the wrong thread.

I find that hard to believe.  There are dozens of clueless dicktards on every RPG forum, so singling Koltar out so particularly makes no sense.  Your posts drip with personal hatred.

Koltar, what did you do to Ronin?

Quote from: Hairfoot;347012Koltar, what did you do to Ronin?

Hairfoot, I  didn't do anything to him as far as I know.
Maybe He just enjoys being hateful.
I don't know.
Its a mystery.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;347015Hairfoot, I  didn't do anything to him as far as I know.
Maybe He just enjoys being hateful.
I don't know.
Its a mystery.


- Ed C.

Do you ever listen to yourself? If you did, you might have a better idea as to why I take time to correct and chastise your ignorant ramblings. Besides you intiated this phenomenon. You can end this. But you wont, and youve created a monster. That you cant/wont stop and neither will I.

Quote from: Koltar;347015Hairfoot, I  didn't do anything to him as far as I know.
Maybe He just enjoys being hateful.
I don't know.
Its a mystery.


- Ed C.

You figure out why this dude sperges out about him, then we can figure out what I did to J Arcane.  Then we can figure out what Edwards did to Pundie.

Eventually?  RPG nerd equivalent of the old "Buy the World a Coke" commercial.

QuoteI just chastise him every time (well mostly) he says something stupid or hypocritical. He is a liar, hypocrite, ignorant, and a toadie suck up. He embodies everything (Well again mostly) I hate about internet RPG nerds. He is truely a catpiss man and a horrible representative of our shared hobby.

I may not agree with a lot of what Koltar says, but I don't see it as a reason to continually demonize him.  As far as I'm concerned, there's bigger fish to fry in life than a semi-random stranger rambling away on an online rpg discussion board.

Quote from: Ronin;347020Do you ever listen to yourself? If you did, you might have a better idea as to why I take time to correct and chastise your ignorant ramblings. Besides you intiated this phenomenon. You can end this. But you wont, and youve created a monster. That you cant/wont stop and neither will I.

I would strongly suggest you DO stop, actually. What you're doing here is amounting to stalking.

I'd advise that you just stop posting in threads that Koltar started; and remain ON TOPIC everywhere else, skipping that impulse to have to throw poo at Koltar just because.

RPGPundit

Here's my anecdote

The FLGS carries 4e and pathfinder, both seem about equally popular.  Same relfection in people looking for groups, though I see 4e requests slightly more often.  The local B&N carries 4e and White Wolf, with a smattering of other products.  Indie games are growing in popularity, especially Dread.  I haven't seen any interest in OSR or AD&D games.  The only guys I knew playing AD&D were doing it for Dark Sun, and most grumbled about the rules.

As far as I'm concerned, I just want more people gaming.  :)

Quote from: Maddman;347174As far as I'm concerned, I just want more people gaming.  :)

That statement I will always agree with - no matter what edition they are playing.



- Ed c.

Quote from: Koltar;347175That statement I will always agree with - no matter what edition they are playing.

I dont believe you

Quote from: Hairfoot;346898It's easy to miss the context of a comment when people communicate in plain text.....

I dont believe you either

Quote from: Ronin;347020Do you ever listen to yourself? If you did, you might have a better idea as to why I take time to correct and chastise your ignorant ramblings. Besides you intiated this phenomenon. You can end this. But you wont, and youve created a monster. That you cant/wont stop and neither will I.

That's...just kinda sad, really.

Quote from: Ronin;347020Do you ever listen to yourself? If you did, you might have a better idea as to why I take time to correct and chastise your ignorant ramblings. Besides you intiated this phenomenon. You can end this. But you wont, and youve created a monster. That you cant/wont stop and neither will I.

Dude, you come across as an obsessive/stalker just looking for an excuse to jump in. And thats coming from a disinterested 3rd party.  In another thread Koltar legitmately asked which 1E Forgotten Realms handbook was being referred too and in your ignorance, you leapt at the opportunity to make a yet another petty (and completely incorrect) attack.

I'd also like to see Ronin stop whaling on Koltar.  Koltar and I have argued often enough, but there's fair argument and there's crossing the line, and Ronin's definitely crossed it.

Frankly, his posts in this thread come across as slightly deranged.  Ronin, dude, is that really the tone you want for your posts?

Quote from: Balbinus;347366I'd also like to see Ronin stop whaling on Koltar.  Koltar and I have argued often enough, but there's fair argument and there's crossing the line, and Ronin's definitely crossed it.

Frankly, his posts in this thread come across as slightly deranged.  Ronin, dude, is that really the tone you want for your posts?

Yeah, Balbinus, you and I may have argued on topics in the past - but I still have an impression of you as a pretty civil and reasonable guy.


- Ed C.

EDIT /UPDATE:

Okay, a bit of an update here to what I posted last December.

Dungeons & Dragons 4/e has seemingly caught up with PATHFINDER /OGL 3.5 compatible books as far as sales. It may even have started to take the lead by a smidgeon.

The main reason I can see for this is the weekly D&D 4/e enounter sessions on Wednesday nights.
That has really helped to churn the intereste level in 4th edition. Also, when our store became a participant in that WotC sent has a huge-ass DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ENCOUNTERS PLAYED HERE sign to hang from our ceiling. It's Huge. (We're talking really, really big)
  That magilla really sticks out when viewed at a distance from our front door.

So..the 'trend' that I mentioned or referred to in my OP has now shifted quite a bit.


- Ed C.

Are you referring to core book sales, like the 4E PHB1/DMG1/MM1, PHB2, PHB3?

Quote from: ggroy;388349Are you referring to core book sales, like the 4E PHB1/DMG1/MM1, PHB2, PHB3?

When I talk about stuff like this I'm talking about ALL Fourth Edition books & related supplements. If it has the 4th edition logo on it and its published by WotC -then thats what I'm talking about.

Like the anecdote I mentioned a few weeks back - kids buys the two-book packake of D&D 4/e PHB 1 & 2 because he just played in an Encounter night. Thats part of a noticeable trend or uptick in fourth edition sales.

Like I said before, it may not be my favorite game - but if I notice a sales trend during my shifts - then I'm honest about it when I mention it.


- Ed C.

Are a lot of these people new players?

I spoke to my shop about getting some RPGA events going to get more people in the store, but they were worried it would attract all of the middle-age blobs and weird people that came around when they used to have Living Greyhawk campaigns.

Quote from: Peregrin;388372Are a lot of these people new players?

I spoke to my shop about getting some RPGA events going to get more people in the store, but they were worried it would attract all of the middle-age blobs and weird people that came around when they used to have Living Greyhawk campaigns.

A game store attracting more people? Gads, some of them over 30 and overweight? Better nip that shit in the bud!

Quote from: The_Shadow;388377A game store attracting more people? Gads, some of them over 30 and overweight? Better nip that shit in the bud!

Unfortunately, being smart isn't a requirement for owning a game-store.  

I don't agree with the management but that's what they said to me.

Quote from: Peregrin;388372I spoke to my shop about getting some RPGA events going to get more people in the store, but they were worried it would attract all of the middle-age blobs and weird people that came around when they used to have Living Greyhawk campaigns.

I would imagine they're less concerned about blobs than they are about weird people. The type of gamer who comes in and starts their own private edition war, who feels the need to comment on strangers' games and gaming habits, who stand at the counter and recount - in detail - their latest gaming exploits or Magic decks, who paw all over the merchandise without buying it, etc..

Seanchai

Quote from: The_Shadow;388377A game store attracting more people? Gads, some of them over 30 and overweight? Better nip that shit in the bud!

...also some are UNDER 30 and are kids, and others are in their early 20s and look damn good.
(Did I ever mention that in the Cincinnati/Dayton area single women out number single men ? Probably why there are so many women and girl gamers in the southwestern Ohio area)


- Ed C.

Quote from: Seanchai;388435I would imagine they're less concerned about blobs than they are about weird people. The type of gamer who comes in and starts their own private edition war, who feels the need to comment on strangers' games and gaming habits, who stand at the counter and recount - in detail - their latest gaming exploits or Magic decks, who paw all over the merchandise without buying it, etc..

Seanchai

By blobs, I wasn't trying to infer that they're fat -- though some are.  I'm talking about the type of gamer who just sits there during a game and doesn't actually participate, at all.  Not the creepy "let me tell you about my char", but the creepy "I'm going to sit here and stare at people and not actually say anything but sometimes roll a die" type of people who look absolutely miserable to be there, but come anyway.

That's kinda what I meant by blob.

Quote from: Koltar;388514...also some are UNDER 30 and are kids, and others are in their early 20s and look damn good.
(Did I ever mention that in the Cincinnati/Dayton area single women out number single men ? Probably why there are so many women and girl gamers in the southwestern Ohio area)


- Ed C.

Mind shipping a few to Morgantown? I'd like some in my groups. :P :)

Quote from: Nightfall;388520Mind shipping a few to Morgantown? I'd like some in my groups. :P :)

The factual and actual reason for that is probably the number of colleges and universities in this area and what they specialize in.
Another result of that is that the young women in this area tend to be well-educated or at least they are fairly avid readers.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;388522The factual and actual reason for that is probably the number of colleges and universities in this area and what they specialize in.
Another result of that is that the young women in this area tend to be well-educated or at least they are fairly avid readers.

- Ed C.

So you're saying WVU isn't for the well-educated? ;)

At our club, with about 100+ members, nobody is playing 4e. There are a few D&D games, but they're all 3.5 except for one Basic.

Quote from: noisms;388558At our club, with about 100+ members, nobody is playing 4e. There are a few D&D games, but they're all 3.5 except for one Basic.

Similar to our local con here-

http://forums.knoxgamers.org/viewtopic.php?f=558&t=19557

D&D, but no 4e.

During Monday's shift at work - got three batches of customers in a row that were looking for 3.5 compatible items or stuff.

Literally one on top of the other as they came into the store. One guy and has girlfriend soewnt three hours browsing REAPER miniatures for just the rigfht ones for his game after first browsing the D&D 3.5 compatible books.

Then a group of 'kids' came in - okay they were in the 18 to 22 year old range. Two guys and a girl - all part of the same D&D group. They were looking for pre-painted individual figs or maybe simple miniatures they could use for their characters...and of course 3.5/OGL compatible books and maps.


- Ed C.

How often do people come in looking for 4E stuff?

Quote from: ggroy;396438How often do people come in looking for 4E stuff?

I answered that within this thread already. Scroll back or look at other pages.
 It goes in cycles or swings back and forth like a pendulum.

 Right now there seems to be more of a preference for 3.5 style gaming.
Those kids in their early 20s on Monday? I introduced them to Pathfinder by showing them Pathfinder books on our shelves and that they were mostly compatible with 3.5/OGL gaming.  
Oh and those gamers in their 20s? Their first experience with Role playing games was D&D 3.5 and that was pretty much what they wanted to stick with. One of them had tried 4th edition D&Dand wound up disliking it so much that he went back to 3.5-style.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;396442I answered that within this thread already. Scroll back or look at other pages.
 It goes in cycles or swings back and forth like a pendulum.

 Right now there seems to be more of a preference for 3.5 style gaming.
Those kids in their early 20s on Monday? I introduced them to Pathfinder by showing them Pathfinder books on our shelves and that they were mostly compatible with 3.5/OGL gaming.  Oh and those gamers in their 20s? Their first vexperience with Role playing games was D&D 3.5 and that was pretty much what they wanted to sticvk with. One of them had tried 4th edition and wound up disliking it so much that he went back to 3.5-style.


- Ed C.

I call patent on the term "vexperience"

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;396444I call patent on the term "vexperience"

It's an awesome word, really, but I'm afraid that Kevin S has already trademarked it ;)

At the game store I go to, we've had Encounters; it was fairly popular, and the reason it declined was because the players wound up organizing their own games of 4E (at least as I've been told).

Quote from: Koltar;396442Oh and those gamers in their 20s? Their first experience with Role playing games was D&D 3.5 and that was pretty much what they wanted to stick with.  

Ah, so it's a nostalgia thing ;)

Quote from: Technomancer;396586Ah, so it's a nostalgia thing ;)

For a version of a game thats less than 10 years old - yeah, I guess so
Plus, they talked like they had only been gaming for less than 2 years.

- Ed C.