Just got done DMing a group through the most recent playtest materials. We used Caves of Chaos again (I pulled an original from my shelf and just replaced the monster stats with the D&D next stats). The players have all played all versions of TSR era D&D, with just a smattering of 3e.
We managed to complete the Kobold cave, goblin and hobgoblin caves, ogre cave, and owl bear cave before calling it a night.
In the case of full disclosure, I will say when we play D&D, we prefer AD&D as our brand because the things AD&D does well we appreciate and prefer.
With that said, we did not play with minis or maps. Movement was handled like we handle it in AD&D: just sort of make a judgement call on if you could do something or not. Worked well.
Observations?
We were actually able to play it very much the same as we play AD&D and B/X. Combat took roughly the same amount of time because we didn't have to move minis and we didn't have to spend time adding modifiers after every attack.
Definitely more options for the fighter with the combat superiority dice. And definitely came away with the feeling that the fighter was needed in the party. We actually didn't start with the fighter, but only the rogue, magic user, and cleric. I toned down the encounters to match the small party. But even with that, there was a clear message that you'd need a frontline fighter to really be a solid group. A smart group could still succeed, but a lucky blow could kill you. And it almost did a TPK with the ogre. If we played with our AD&D rules (dead at 0 hp), it would have been. But we didn't want to start over, so we used the D&D Next rules (you could bleed for several rounds). So after that encounter, one of the players played a cleric and a fighter.
If hit dice aren't allowed during combat but only on short rests, it didn't have that much of a disruptive effect and I previously thought. It actually worked pretty well. But I refuse to use the rule that even at 1 hp, if you rest for 8 hours you're back to max.
The rogue felt good. All too often in WoTC era (a lesser extent in 4e because damage was so pumped up for rogues) I have heard complaints that the rogue players didn't feel like they contributed as often because most time was spent in combat--an area where they were weaker. In our game the rogue was probably one of the most active and important players. TONS of opportunities to sneak, spy, pick locks, and sneak attack. Just like it was in AD&D. So another plus.
The cleric's radiant lance spell seemed overpowered since he could cast it at will. The magic users MM spell not so much, but the RL spell did twice the damage of the MM, even if it wasn't an auto-hit. The cleric player said, "Why am I even carrying a mace? It's worthless compared to radiant lance."
Hitting the monsters seemed a lot easier than in 1e as well. With the +3 thru +6 bonuses to hit at first level against monsters with an AC of 11 or 12, the players were hitting a lot more than the monsters were.
Overall?
I can actually see myself playing this game going forward instead of AD&D. There are some rules I would ignore of course, but I ignore a lot of AD&D rules anyway. It took me about 10 min to create a character from scratch in an unfamiliar system and played about as fast as AD&D. It was also very easy to assign DC values and have the players make checks quickly and easily. I think the combat superiority is a bit wonky and adds too much power to the fighter, but it does offer options other than sword and board. I think they could simplify that mechanic a bit going forward.
Oh, one other big observation I totally forgot to put down:
Level advancement.
Very, very fast. In the caves we cleared above? Everyone was 3rd level by the end of the session. You only need roughly 650 xp for 2nd level, and 1835 for 3rd level. XP values were like 70 per kobold and 120 per goblin. The owlbear and ogre were near 500 each.
So level advancement was pretty fast. Not sure how it will end up in higher levels or if it slows down like in previous versions.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;573545Very, very fast. In the caves we cleared above? Everyone was 3rd level by the end of the session. You only need roughly 650 xp for 2nd level, and 1835 for 3rd level. XP values were like 70 per kobold and 120 per goblin. The owlbear and ogre were near 500 each.
That's a huge negative in my book, but one easy enough to correct by adjusting xp requirements to level to be much higher.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;573545Oh, one other big observation I totally forgot to put down:
Level advancement.
Very, very fast. In the caves we cleared above? Everyone was 3rd level by the end of the session. You only need roughly 650 xp for 2nd level, and 1835 for 3rd level. XP values were like 70 per kobold and 120 per goblin. The owlbear and ogre were near 500 each.
So level advancement was pretty fast. Not sure how it will end up in higher levels or if it slows down like in previous versions.
Quote from: RandallS;573553That's a huge negative in my book, but one easy enough to correct by adjusting xp requirements to level to be much higher.
Mine too but that is to be expected. The selling point of games with levels nowadays is getting all kinds of new kewl stuff at level up, and that happening damn often to keep the short attention span audience coming back for more.
Actually, that aspect of the game has turned me off from wanting to run WOTC D&D more than anything else because leveling is what it is, all players want to do is BS about what stuff they're getting next, and what (mechanically) they will be doing once they get it. Conversation about the actual adventures and whats going on with their characters as they relate to the setting are almost background noise.
Quote from: RandallS;573553That's a huge negative in my book, but one easy enough to correct by adjusting xp requirements to level to be much higher.
A much easier way (and one I'll probably be doing) is to cut the XP value of the monsters in half. As far as I could tell, there is no gold for xp mechanic, so to be completely honest, leveling in AD&D was also fast from 1 to 5 or so. If you survived.
The difference is that it's much easier to survive in Next than AD&D, so while you might get 3000xp in Next running the same adventure you did in AD&D, you don't have a significant portion of that xp that went to a character who might have died.
That's why I'm bit hesitant to make a judgement call until I see how it works at higher levels. I'm hopeful that progression will slow down after level 3.
Honesty, I don't have a problem with fairly quick leveling from 1 to 3. A level 1 character has no experience, right? So you figure after fighting several dozen creatures and getting real life experience, a fighter would be much better than the one coming right out of boot camp, so to speak. I just want slower advancement at the mid and especially high levels.
Your experience is very similar to mine. I am going to see how the sorcerer and warlock work next time. That's the kind of funky risk I love and look for 5e to try. I still hate the healing mechanic but that's easy to change. About the leveling? I like it because much as I love 2e I love that 3/4e allows for high level play in a realistic timeframe before boredom or IRL sets in to cause the game to break up or get stale. There has to be a sensible middle ground solution between 1/2e and 3/4e out there concerning level rate.
Quote from: Marleycat;573620Your experience is very similar to mine. I am going to see how the sorcerer and warlock work next time. That's the kind of funky risk I love and look for 5e to try. I still hate the healing mechanic but that's easy to change. About the leveling? I like it because much as I love 2e I love that 3/4e allows for high level play in a realistic timeframe before boredom or IRL sets in to cause the game to break up or get stale. There has to be a sensible middle ground solution between 1/2e and 3/4e out there concerning level rate.
I would agree with this.
For us, it's not attention span, it's real life interruptions. Being able to get to it is nice.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;573692I would agree with this.
For us, it's not attention span, it's real life interruptions. Being able to get to it is nice.
This is a completely valid point for us Gen X gamers. Being in your 30s/40s with a job, family, and other responsibilities means I don't get to play every weekend. So your point is a good one.
But also, for those "grognards" that prefer slower advancement, it is
super easy to just cut the xp awards for monsters in half without any other sort of disruption. It just means that if you're playing a multi-module published campaign, you might need to have some side adventures in between those modules so your characters are at appropriate level when they do take on another one. That's not hard.
The thing that pisses me off about D&D next is that what I was pitched is an updated version of Basic D&D with Advanced D&D bits that can be easily grafted on.
What I got instead is a 3.x clone with a few thinly veiled 4isms.
The game didn't play terribly when I gave it a shot, but I still don't see any compelling reason to swap it out for my favorite iterations.
Quote from: Declan MacManus;573702The thing that pisses me off about D&D next is that what I was pitched is an updated version of Basic D&D with Advanced D&D bits that can be easily grafted on.
What I got instead is a 3.x clone with a few thinly veiled 4isms.
The game didn't play terribly when I gave it a shot, but I still don't see any compelling reason to swap it out for my favorite iterations.
Then don't. The WoTC police won't show up at your door and beat you for not playing 5e and sticking with 1e.
While I admit my initial perception was close to yours (3e clone with 4e bits), the actual play experience says not so much. The game, for the most part, played exactly like my AD&D game sessions. It was very easy to ignore minis and map usage. I can just as easily ignore full healing on long rests, cut monster xp down, and ignore specialties if I so want.
I mean, no one plays with every single RAW in AD&D. Hell, we don't use probably half of the DMG.
No edition will ever be perfect. What makes a good edition is the ability for me to houserule what I want to the playstyle I want. So far, it seems 5e is the first edition since 2e to be able to do that, while at the same time allowing 4e fans to be able to use minis, maps, and fighter "powers", and for 3e fans to pick feats and customize characters.
I'm hopeful.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;573708I mean, no one plays with every single RAW in AD&D. Hell, we don't use probably half of the DMG.
No edition will ever be perfect. What makes a good edition is the ability for me to houserule what I want to the playstyle I want. So far, it seems 5e is the first edition since 2e to be able to do that, while at the same time allowing 4e fans to be able to use minis, maps, and fighter "powers", and for 3e fans to pick feats and customize characters.
I'm hopeful.
Yeah...I hope to get a playtest game together soon, either at the table or online, but it's given me more hope for D&D than I've had in a decade, just off the character creation.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;573708Then don't. The WoTC police won't show up at your door and beat you for not playing 5e and sticking with 1e.
While I admit my initial perception was close to yours (3e clone with 4e bits), the actual play experience says not so much. The game, for the most part, played exactly like my AD&D game sessions. It was very easy to ignore minis and map usage. I can just as easily ignore full healing on long rests, cut monster xp down, and ignore specialties if I so want.
I mean, no one plays with every single RAW in AD&D. Hell, we don't use probably half of the DMG.
No edition will ever be perfect. What makes a good edition is the ability for me to houserule what I want to the playstyle I want. So far, it seems 5e is the first edition since 2e to be able to do that, while at the same time allowing 4e fans to be able to use minis, maps, and fighter "powers", and for 3e fans to pick feats and customize characters.
I'm hopeful.
What he said. As for Tommy? You and I are on the same page I think. The creation rules are straight fun and quick, even for girls! You like girls? It's similar to Fantasy Craft, squee!!!
I just re-downloaded the playtest packet (on a different PC), and this time they included an adventure: Recliaming Blingdenstone. It looks pretty substantial so far. The main maps are in older D&D style, and it does have another map of traditional 3e/4e grid style for those who want tactical combat. It's also got the first illustration of D&D next (a deep gnome) which looks pretty cool.
One other thing I like so far. Anyone can detect and disarm traps. Just that rogues get extra bonuses. Reminds me of OD&D/AD&D.
I wonder if the level rate is because it is a play-test? Gets you through the crunchy bits of advancement in a shorter amount of time.
Quote from: mcbobbo;574207I wonder if the level rate is because it is a play-test? Gets you through the crunchy bits of advancement in a shorter amount of time.
Very well could be.