Only two real changes:
Monster stat blocks (XP values went way down, along with a few minor changes)
Magic Items included
Some interesting observations about magic items.
* They are categorized by rarity like your typical video game or Magic game (common, rare, etc).
* No magic shops, which despite 4vengers bitching that 5e is a 3e clone, is a shot right at 3e. No more bulk CLW wants for you.
* Items have features like creator, quirks, etc which are really there for flavor and to make the item feel special. E.g. a +1 fire elemental gleaming longsword might be warm to the touch and never get tarnished.
* Attunement. You can only attune a certain # of magic items at any given time, and when an item is attuned, it grants extra powers. E.g, a dwarven thrower hammer gives a +1 bonus to hit and damage, but when attuned by a dwarf, goes to +3/+3 and can be thrown.
Again, I'm really digging what they're doing here. "Generic" magic weapons and armor largely topping out at "+1" and anything beyond that being special? Win.
And the Elven Oathbow...soooooo cool.
Sounds like something ive wanted for years, magic items that seem unique and rare instead just something you buy from the store for a few extra gold above the regular priced stuff.
Sounds like they're trying to give artifact-level oomph to middlin- to low-level magic items, which is more the DMs duty than being "cooked into" the core rules themselves. Pass.
I like what they're doing with magic items being both unnecessary as an assumption of advancement (take that 3 and 4 e) but the whole unique item approach. Kinda like relics in Hellfrost, attunement and all.
It's not new or unique, but a good move.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;590236I like what they're doing with magic items being both unnecessary as an assumption of advancement (take that 3 and 4 e) but the whole unique item approach. Kinda like relics in Hellfrost, attunement and all.
It's not new or unique, but a good move.
Yeah, the whole thing looks promising. Which makes sense, given that they are largely removing the "generic" magic weapon and armor.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;590217Sounds like they're trying to give artifact-level oomph to middlin- to low-level magic items, which is more the DMs duty than being "cooked into" the core rules themselves. Pass.
So you're
for making magic items unique, but
against having explicit guidelines for this in the core rules? :confused: Please elaborate...
Quote from: Broken-Serenity;590216Sounds like something ive wanted for years, magic items that seem unique and rare instead just something you buy from the store for a few extra gold above the regular priced stuff.
So the inclusion of gold values forces you to allow players to buy magic items in your campaigns?
I don't see the lack of prices as a feature. It more the designers imposing their view of what the magic items economy ought to be like. Some of us like having magic shops in the campaign and it imposes more work on us to have to come up with our own price list.
The game designers should take the time to think about the relative values of the time and write that down in the form of a price list. They know the system far better and have more time to do that kind of work than a referee in my position would.
I was able to come up with my own list for Swords & Wizardry after refereeing the game for several years and had a feel for the relative value of the various items. http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf
But why should every referee have to go through that with any version of D&D just to allow magic item shops in the game?
Quote from: The Butcher;590288So you're for making magic items unique, but against having explicit guidelines for this in the core rules? :confused: Please elaborate...
I'm for the DM making them unique if he wants. I'm against the items coming pre-made with expectations from the players that the magic dagger they found in the Caves of Chaos isn't a +1 weapon stuffed away by the ogre but in fact is the Eye of the Serpent, a jade-pointed weapon that seeks the heart of it's opponent unerringly and was forged by the elven demigoddess O'hmahgod.
If I say it's a nicely made dagger that emanates a torch-like glow in a 10' radius and that's it, that's it.
I don't mind artifacts, I don't mind explicit rules for artifacts. I don't want every magic weapon to
be an artifact. It gets cumbersome. It doesn't make magic less magical that there are sometimes swords or rings or cloaks that are +1, protection, invisibility (respectively) and that's it.
But then 5e is pulling away from my expectations of what I thought it'd be so...guess that's just tough nuts for me.
Quote from: The Butcher;590288So you're for making magic items unique, but against having explicit guidelines for this in the core rules? :confused: Please elaborate...
Speaking for myself, there is a tendency of treating any rule subsystem as gospel. D&D Next provides a way of making Magic Items special. However if you create a magic item that special but doesn't use those guidelines the player complain. Similar to how guidelines for encounters somehow became the RULE of how you must structure adventures in 4e.
However I do disagree with Delver. I much rather have a subsystem like this in place provided it is useful in giving me ideas for interesting effect and assessing the relative power between options. Something that employed game designers have more time for than I. It is far easier to ignore a guideline than to create one yourself.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;590298I don't mind artifacts, I don't mind explicit rules for artifacts. I don't want every magic weapon to be an artifact. It gets cumbersome. It doesn't make magic less magical that there are sometimes swords or rings or cloaks that are +1, protection, invisibility (respectively) and that's it.
First off I understand your preferences for your campaigns. But there are fantasy settings in literature where every magic items is unique including the minor ones. I believe they are also rare including the minor items in those settings. So I think a subsystem that allows every magic item to be unique is fine as long as that is not the only way to implement magic items or even the preferred way.
Including this subsystem extends the scope of fantasy that D&D covers in a way that still keeps it D&D. Which is a good thing in my opinion.
Note that my own personal preference is to allow magic shops with a three tier scale of magic items. Common, found only on the auction circuit, and unique artifacts(usually religious in nature).
Quote from: estar;590307First off I understand your preferences for your campaigns. But there are fantasy settings in literature where every magic items is unique including the minor ones. I believe they are also rare including the minor items in those settings. So I think a subsystem that allows every magic item to be unique is fine as long as that is not the only way to implement magic items or even the preferred way.
Including this subsystem extends the scope of fantasy that D&D covers in a way that still keeps it D&D. Which is a good thing in my opinion.
Note that my own personal preference is to allow magic shops with a three tier scale of magic items. Common, found only on the auction circuit, and unique artifacts(usually religious in nature).
I think a subsystem that makes magic items unique is fine too, it's called the DM's brain.
But whatever, clearly we're not going to agree, so let's just drop it.
Quote from: estar;590299However if you create a magic item that special but doesn't use those guidelines the player complain.
Cry me a river.
"Ok since you're unhappy with how I made it magical, how about you just erase all references to it's magical bonuses or abilities and it's now just an ordinary item. Happy now?"
Quote from: Doctor Jest;590338Cry me a river.
"Ok since you're unhappy with how I made it magical, how about you just erase all references to it's magical bonuses or abilities and it's now just an ordinary item. Happy now?"
Don't blame the messenger, I am just reporting how it is with 3.5e and 4e particularly for organized play. Personally I ignore that type of complaint in my campaign and tell the player to tell with as if they were really there as their character staring at the magic item that just offended them.
Quote from: estar;590297So the inclusion of gold values forces you to allow players to buy magic items in your campaigns?
I don't see the lack of prices as a feature. It more the designers imposing their view of what the magic items economy ought to be like. Some of us like having magic shops in the campaign and it imposes more work on us to have to come up with our own price list.
The game designers should take the time to think about the relative values of the time and write that down in the form of a price list. They know the system far better and have more time to do that kind of work than a referee in my position would.
I was able to come up with my own list for Swords & Wizardry after refereeing the game for several years and had a feel for the relative value of the various items. http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf
But why should every referee have to go through that with any version of D&D just to allow magic item shops in the game?
No what i ment is i like that they finally seem to have given magic items back a reason to be rare and not just a slightly better magic version of the weapons and items your regular shop sells(like they tend to be in mmorpg's).
sure i have been able to do that myself for years but the designers have never taken the move to make them something personal for each hero like this seems to offer(as far as gold value of magic items goes i dont think such rareties should have a value on a gold scale).
Quote from: estar;590357Don't blame the messenger, I am just reporting how it is with 3.5e and 4e particularly for organized play. Personally I ignore that type of complaint in my campaign and tell the player to tell with as if they were really there as their character staring at the magic item that just offended them.
The point being, I don't think an RPG should have dealing with crybabies as a design goal.
Quote from: Broken-Serenity;590216Sounds like something ive wanted for years, magic items that seem unique and rare instead just something you buy from the store for a few extra gold above the regular priced stuff.
Welcome (back?) to Vintage Gaming. ;)
Quote from: Doctor Jest;590483The point being, I don't think an RPG should have dealing with crybabies as a design goal.
You would appear to be a few years behind the 'best practices in RPG design' curve, then. :)
Quote from: Doctor Jest;590483The point being, I don't think an RPG should have dealing with crybabies as a design goal.
You would appear to be a few years behind the 'best practices in RPG design' curve, then. :)
Quote from: StormBringer;590495You would appear to be a few years behind the 'best practices in RPG design' curve, then. :)
I thought that curve was, itself, several years out of date.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;590501I thought that curve was, itself, several years out of date.
Let's hope so. Modern rulebooks make Advanced Squad Leader look like a summer beach read.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;590214Again, I'm really digging what they're doing here. "Generic" magic weapons and armor largely topping out at "+1" and anything beyond that being special? Win.
And the Elven Oathbow...soooooo cool.
That may mean they want to keep the numbers tight, and I prefer that over "I have 45 AC with my Godplate+10 and Bahumat Scale Shield+10..etc...
Speaking personally, I'd say that as soon as you start thinking about having such a thing as a 'common magic item', somethings started to go wrong. Just calling them 'common' makes them mundane.
Yup much rather have magic items being much rarer and having a unique thing so more like artifacts.
So give me a list of matrix of powers and abilities and a table for rolling a backstory for the item.
Then make items rare so the chance of you finding a magic item in a horde might be 1 in 5 so by the time you reach 10th you have seen maybe 10 magic items.
That I like.
If they also work out some way it links to the character as well then also good so it develops as they do...
So a sword isn;t +1 so much as its +10% of the benefit or somethng
and it grows as the PC does (as well as casuing darnkes in a 15 foot radius and repelling angels.....)
Quote from: The Butcher;590288So you're for making magic items unique, but against having explicit guidelines for this in the core rules? :confused: Please elaborate...
Its simple. He's decided he's not going to like 5e come hell or high water, so anything it comes up with, even if its what he's clamouring for, has to be wrong.
That seems to be the case with quite a few of the more dedicated 5e-foes. And you know, that's fine, but then dont' keep posting on 5e threads trying to play pretend that you were giving it an honest chance, and that "you'd like it but..." and so on. By the 50th time someone does that, it becomes pretty clear that its bullshit.
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