There's a whole generation of new #DnD gamers who missed all the long history of people studying and debating RPG theory, and the thinking behind the conclusion that regular #RPG are not a good medium for 'making story'.  And a lot of them have been fed the same old bullshit as in the old days, being told that's what D&D is for.

So here's uncle Pundit giving all the newbies a history lesson explaining the long history of studies and how they proved RPGs are not for story-making, and what they really are for, and why it matters.

[video=youtube_share;owtZ2TThmWI]https://youtu.be/owtZ2TThmWI[/youtube]

I thought this was very good - clear, well explained, gives Edwards his due as very smart but missing something important.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1072897There's a whole generation of new #DnD gamers who missed all the long history of people studying and debating RPG theory, and the thinking behind the conclusion that regular #RPG are not a good medium for 'making story'.  And a lot of them have been fed the same old bullshit as in the old days, being told that's what D&D is for.

So here's uncle Pundit giving all the newbies a history lesson explaining the long history of studies and how they proved RPGs are not for story-making, and what they really are for, and why it matters.
...

Found your comments on D&D4e interesting - especially in light of the poll in the: "What is your favorite version of Dungeons & Dragons?" Poll at the big purple.

4e was leading the poll until the thread was typically locked and closed for 'reasons'. I think that says a bit about some of the D&D fans over there.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1072897There's a whole generation of new #DnD gamers who missed all the long history of people studying and debating RPG theory, and the thinking behind the conclusion that regular #RPG are not a good medium for 'making story'.  And a lot of them have been fed the same old bullshit as in the old days, being told that's what D&D is for.

So here's uncle Pundit giving all the newbies a history lesson explaining the long history of studies and how they proved RPGs are not for story-making, and what they really are for, and why it matters.

Because if you are making 'stories' with D&D, you're clearly doing it wrong and MUST be corrected.  Or else.

BadWrongFun.

Stream of consciousness response:
May not be designed to "make a story" but ends up telling a story.

Connecting with characters requires immersion in something other than sense data.

Nit picking. Saying all stories are literary stories.

You're talking yourself into a box. Admitting to a world history, then using the term "emergent" with regards to stories.

Active or passive, so what? There's a story to be told (which you admitted).

"Story games" accomplish the same thing. Nothing is preplanned. Stories "emerge" in the same manner.

RPG means ROLE playing game. So, you play a role, a story emerges, ta dah!

"Story after" also occurs in other systems besides monolithic, OS D&D type systems.

So, now it's all about "effective" storytelling? Moving the goalposts.

"Back in the day" for me is the 70s, dude. Your 90s reference is recent history to some of us.

Once again bitching about the people involved, rather than the systems themselves.

You hate anything not OS D&D--boils down to that. Every. Single. Time.

So, Vampire is not a storytelling game? Why are we talking about it?

Now railing against railroading. Not the original topic.

I don't think White Wolf has a monopoly on "pretentious elitism" (look in the mirror, man).

Just because players have choice doesn't mean there isn't a story there. At its base is plot. The plot can make no sense, but players engaging in actions, pursuing goals, etc., IS plot. It may not be cohesive and uniform, in that there's no single arc.

Now you're saying "D&D doesn't allow for effective plots." Changing the topic.

If "effective" is designed as "interesting," than D&D can create a plot.

Author doesn't matter. In D&D, players are at least co-authoring, whether in "emergent" form, or as a reaction to GM "scripting."

This is a silly topic. What does it MATTER whether trad RPGs "can't do story?" Picking nits.

Ron Edwards -- so, this is basically a dredge of an old argument.

If D&D allows for "emergent" storytelling, then obviously, people DO like story games.

I doubt you really know what story games are all about, since you never mention playing any of the gamesyou bash.

You used the word "story" in the definition of what D&D is...again.

Ah...here's the prime bitch. Player agency. Being the godlike, "this is MY fucking campaign" GM you are, you don't like player agency outside one's own character. "HOW DARE YOU NARRATE IN AN NPC THAT I HAVE NOT BIRTHED!" This isn't about story games. This is about collaboration in the building phase. Well, it was for a second...now we're off to something else.

You're  not the only one who didn't think much of 4E.

Now you're claiming credit for the success of 5E.

Delusions of grandeur (yet, somehow, a persecution complex).

Please get laid sometime this century...

Quote from: cranebump;1072936...You hate anything not OS D&D--boils down to that. Every. Single. Time.

Ah...here's the prime bitch. Player agency. Being the godlike, "this is MY fucking campaign" GM you are, you don't like player agency outside one's own character. "HOW DARE YOU NARRATE IN AN NPC THAT I HAVE NOT BIRTHED!" This isn't about story games. This is about collaboration in the building phase. Well, it was for a second...now we're off to something else...

You could probably just save these two lines to a text file and copy-paste them as a reply to all Pundit's videos, it will always be a valid critique of every opinion he's ever had.

Quote from: cranebump;1072936I am a whiny little pretentious bitch who can't even with RPGPundit's posts.

There fixed it for you.

Stream of truth coming up...

Seriously though you know RPGPundit politics, thoughts on gaming, and his mannerisms.  You know he is only going to speak about his beliefs in his own forum site.  My question is why are you even bothering to bitch about RPGPundit at all?  You know he is too stubborn to change and given the nature of his site the people are not going to change either.

What a load of crap.

People use RPGs for various reasons from telling stories, to pretending to be action movie heroes, to tactical combats with minis, and a bazillion more reasons.

Stop trying to push your agenda to the hobbie, bro.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1072959There fixed it for you.

Stream of truth coming up...

Seriously though you know RPGPundit politics, thoughts on gaming, and his mannerisms.  You know he is only going to speak about his beliefs in his own forum site.  My question is why are you even bothering to bitch about RPGPundit at all?  You know he is too stubborn to change and given the nature of his site the people are not going to change either.

I'm blind!  I rolled my eyes so hard they fell out of my skull!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1072974I'm blind!  I rolled my eyes so hard they fell out of my skull!

It is a valid question and insult...  Okay the insult wasn't really warranted so my apologies there cranebump.

I mean if you are so annoyed at a person it is pretty stupid to bitch about him in his own forum site where his fans are at.  It is smarter to just leave and go to a forum site that is hosted by a person you actually like.

Greetings!

I like Pundit. I think his videos are cool. Sometimes they are funny, informative, and thoughtful. Always entertaining, too. That doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with Pundit on all of his perspectives. I'm still not sold on the whole It's a game! Not storytelling! thing. Yes, it's a game, and there's a larger story being told about how the characters live in and experience the world. Along the way, there are lots of smaller, personal stories. Every game session I have is a small story, within the larger story. I have no idea how it is going to conclude, or proceed, it is all different and crazy--but that doesn't mean that a story isn't also happening, unfolding, as we go along. *shrug* So I'm just not uite seeing the hate that Pundit has in this regard. D&D is not either or, but both and. Game and Storytelling.

Having said that, what's with all the hate and sneering towards Pundit? I don't understand that at all. You certainly are not required to agree with Pundit on everything, but if you are a person that hates Pundit, and has this sneering condescension towards Pundit, why would you be here, on his website? Why watch his videos at all? Then again, it seems that many here don't watch his videos, but they certainly have all kinds of jackass opinions about the videos--even though they haven't bothered to even watch them for fuck's sake.

That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1073006Having said that, what's with all the hate and sneering towards Pundit? I don't understand that at all. You certainly are not required to agree with Pundit on everything, but if you are a person that hates Pundit, and has this sneering condescension towards Pundit, why would you be here, on his website? Why watch his videos at all? Then again, it seems that many here don't watch his videos, but they certainly have all kinds of jackass opinions about the videos--even though they haven't bothered to even watch them for fuck's sake.

That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

For the majority, I'd say it's because their assholes who know they can get away with it here, and they know they'd be banned for such behavior elsewhere.

Generally, the more rabid a response, the more full of shit it is, too.

Quote from: kythri;1073011For the majority, I'd say it's because their assholes who know they can get away with it here, and they know they'd be banned for such behavior elsewhere.

Generally, the more rabid a response, the more full of shit it is, too.

Greetings!

So true, Kythri! LOLLOLOLOLOL! Full of shit indeed!

I actually watch and listen to every one of Pundit's videos. I respect the man. I respect him as a writer, game designer, game developer, and thinker. He's an educated man, with a lot of good insights to a whole range of things. All along, he doesn't strike me as being arrogant or pretentious at all. Fuck, I like smoking pipes too! I can just imagine a bunch of us gathered around together with Pundit, drinking fine coffee, smoking, discussing games and stuff. Can you imagine how fucking cool that would be? Pundit's a cool guy. It bothers me though, Kythri, that some members here are so rude, and sneering, you know? Go somewhere else then, jackass! LOL. You know? But you're right. They'd be banned in a flash anywhere else for stepping out of line in whatever way, huh? But here, they can just open their mouth, and turn the diarhea faucet on.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I would say Pundit's ideas should be given roughly the same amount of respect that he gives to story gamers, 4E fans, and other gamers he disagrees with.

I appreciate his free speech stance on this site, and he has some ideas that I agree with - but that doesn't mean that he is owed any more respect than what he gives.

I like Pundit's videos as well, which is why I subscribe to him on YouTube.

His most recent video was excellent and I say this as a fan of Vampire: The Masquerade.