So who here likes the harassment or bullying, or thinks D&D should not be an open, welcoming, and inclusive space?

If nobody here thinks that, then they're not talking about you. And no, that's not woke koolaid. I feel like supporters of the OSR have stood against harassment and also felt D&D is for everyone for a very long time, and I've never heard anyone claim the OSR is a woke koolaid movement.

This feels like people looking for reasons to be offended without every talking about what it is they are offended by. Are you guys seriously offended WOTC is against harassment and wants D&D to be open to everyone to play?

Quote from: Mistwell;1138837If nobody here thinks that, then they're not talking about you.

This entirely the point. D&D has always been welcoming and inclusive. The fact that WotC is now talking about making D&D inclusive is based on a non-existent fact that D&D wasn't inclusive in the first place.

That's why people here are upset, because WotC's current position is based on the assumption that everyone playing D&D pre-2020 were excluding other people.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1138840This entirely the point. D&D has always been welcoming and inclusive. The fact that WotC is now talking about making D&D inclusive is based on a non-existent fact that D&D wasn't inclusive in the first place.

I think he's talking about people who say things like they think it's wrong to nominate a game for an award if that game happens to attract, in addition to tween girls, "fat, black, brown, cripples, and hijabs. These games are made by and for people with nose rings, the sides of their heads shaved and their hair dyed in unnatural colors, problem glasses, numerous mental health issues, and HIV. "

Which was in fact just said on this message board with nobody blinking an eye or pausing for even a moment to consider objecting to that.

This idea that NOBODY is against inclusion in D&D is false. I think most people here welcome anyone to the game, but I do not think EVERYONE does and I think people turn a blind eye to it here when the occasional actual bigot pops up his head and says gaming should not include "those" kinds of people.

QuoteThat's why people here are upset, because WotC's current position is based on the assumption that everyone playing D&D pre-2020 were excluding other people.

No it's definitely not a claim that "everyone" excluded people. It's that "a small few" excluded people. Like the guy who I just quoted, who almost certainly did and does still. They're trying to take a stance about a small few that many seem to not want to talk about as if they don't exist right in front of their face here. They do. Some people really are bigots. It's not a lot of people, it's not a representative number of people, but it's enough that it's worth saying, "Hey, these people are not cool."

"When everyone is [playing D&D], then no one will be."

Quote from: Mistwell;1138837So who here likes the harassment or bullying, or thinks D&D should not be an open, welcoming, and inclusive space?

If nobody here thinks that, then they're not talking about you. And no, that's not woke koolaid. I feel like supporters of the OSR have stood against harassment and also felt D&D is for everyone for a very long time, and I've never heard anyone claim the OSR is a woke koolaid movement.

This feels like people looking for reasons to be offended without every talking about what it is they are offended by. Are you guys seriously offended WOTC is against harassment and wants D&D to be open to everyone to play?

It is when harassment is defined as not joining in the groupthink and conforming to their social norms that it gets offensive you moron, but you already fucking knew that.

Quote from: Mistwell;1138842This idea that NOBODY is against inclusion in D&D is false. I think most people here welcome anyone to the game, but I do not think EVERYONE does and I think people turn a blind eye to it here when the occasional actual bigot pops up his head and says gaming should not include "those" kinds of people.

If I don't want to go to the movies with someone because I don't like their gender identity, that doesn't mean that movies are not inclusive, it just means that I have a problem with that person. D&D should be judged by the exact same rule. If one person doesn't want to play D&D with someone else, for any reason, that doesn't make D&D "not inclusive" nor can WotC do anything to force people to play with people they don't like other than harass them and try to stop them from playing D&D all together.

Quoteit's worth saying, "Hey, these people are not cool."

Every effort to make something more inclusive starts with a list of people that need to be excluded.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1138819"Do what you want 'cause a pirate is free.
YOU ARE A PIRATE."

"Ahoy! Me laddies! Browse through tha booty o' me trove!"

Quote from: Mistwell;1138837So who here likes the harassment or bullying, or thinks D&D should not be an open, welcoming, and inclusive space?

If nobody here thinks that, then they're not talking about you. And no, that's not woke koolaid. I feel like supporters of the OSR have stood against harassment and also felt D&D is for everyone for a very long time, and I've never heard anyone claim the OSR is a woke koolaid movement.

This feels like people looking for reasons to be offended without every talking about what it is they are offended by. Are you guys seriously offended WOTC is against harassment and wants D&D to be open to everyone to play?

OSR community isn't the problem. Most of the harassment is coming from the "new" players. They want to lock the old timers out of D&D.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1138857OSR community isn't the problem. Most of the harassment is coming from the "new" players. They want to lock the old timers out of D&D.

Mistwell is desperately trying to appear woke enough so that he doesn't get torn apart by those same welcoming and inclusive D&D fans that he is championing. WotC is a harsh corporate mistress, after all.....

Quote from: Mistwell;1138837So who here likes the harassment or bullying, or thinks D&D should not be an open, welcoming, and inclusive space?

If nobody here thinks that, then they're not talking about you. And no, that's not woke koolaid. I feel like supporters of the OSR have stood against harassment and also felt D&D is for everyone for a very long time, and I've never heard anyone claim the OSR is a woke koolaid movement.

This feels like people looking for reasons to be offended without every talking about what it is they are offended by. Are you guys seriously offended WOTC is against harassment and wants D&D to be open to everyone to play?

Because this is clearly coming in on the heels of the effort to get Oriental Adventures pulled because it's "offensive".
I'm offended because WOTC is going along with this stupid Maoist struggle session bullshit.

I reject their narrative on harassment, bullying and inclusivity, and if that means walking away from WOTC, then let them burn.

Quote from: oggsmash;1138818I remember going to a freshman Orientation in 1996 at East Carolina University, and there was a lot of talk that took be a back a bit.  I was older (almost 25, having been in the military) and the number of times  I sat through lectures about date rape, rape, sexual assault, and racial and cultural sensitivity was jarring.  I had just left the "dont ask dont tell" and tail hook military, so I was used to a certain amount of training on some subjects.  But these people made it sound as if a University was more rape-ey than a level 4 prison.  I was in line to get my ID and I remember a couple of young ladies (white as snow) talking about some sort of minority meeting.....I was wondering if the word minority meant what I thought it did, as their basis for the status was being female.   So I think the seeds for this have been planted for some time.  The racial sensitivity training for example, made me laugh aloud.  I guess none of these kids had never, ever had a Black or Brown person as a supervisor.   My division officer in my division of the Reactor department was a Black man.   I had several supervisors who were Hispanic.  

     It seemed to me the people on campus live in a very, very insulated bubble and develop some very strange views of how most of the real world works, and the college kids need to just take a summer job on a constructions site, in a warehouse, or even at a restaurant, and they will get to see the other social classes they seem to wring their hands and grind their teeth over.    But I could see a pattern starting, and it was starting in the mid 90's.   IME though the professors who were obviously very left, were willing to discuss any topic, and even listen to people from positions they disagreed with (I even converted a female professor to a supporter of the 2A).  I am not so certain those open minded people are becoming professors anymore.

I had left wing professors as well, and it turns out that some of their students that they indoctrinated were rioting, looting, and burning, and I in part blame their professors for turning out such a nasty and hateful product in their students. I got a bad grade from one of those professors for debating them on Marxism, and not giving the 'right" answers on the tests and essay. I haven't paid my student loan, and I think the Federal government should stop guaranteeing student loans, and allow former students to declare bankruptcy and discharge their debt obligations for student loans and let banks underwrite future student loans without government involvement. Colleges have gotten too expensive and their degrees aren't worth as much anymore. College education should be left to the free market, and let's some colleges and universities that can't compete close their doors and shut down, and those left wing professors can get a job flipping burgers as Burger King or McDonalds!

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1138853If I don't want to go to the movies with someone because I don't like their gender identity, that doesn't mean that movies are not inclusive, it just means that I have a problem with that person. D&D should be judged by the exact same rule. If one person doesn't want to play D&D with someone else, for any reason, that doesn't make D&D "not inclusive" nor can WotC do anything to force people to play with people they don't like other than harass them and try to stop them from playing D&D all together.

Correct it doesn't mean D&D isn't inclusive, and WOTC never claimed that either. It means some PEOPLE who play D&D are not inclusive. And WOTC cannot stop them from playing, but they can say "Those who do not reflect those values are not welcome in our community." Get it? "Those" is people, not the game. And they cannot force anyone to stop playing it, but they can tweet they don't want them welcome in the community surrounding the game. And I get that. When someone says they don't want "cripples" to be included in artwork representations of a kids game, I don't want to include them in my community. I don't think there is anything bad about saying that and it sure as shit isn't a "stupid Maoist struggle session".

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1138857OSR community isn't the problem. Most of the harassment is coming from the "new" players. They want to lock the old timers out of D&D.

Well of course the OSR community is not the problem. Why would you even respond that way to what I wrote?

They didn't say anything about old timers. That's weird paranoia. They said what they said, and it had nothing to do with age.

Quote from: jeff37923;1138860Mistwell is desperately trying to appear woke enough so that he doesn't get torn apart by those same welcoming and inclusive D&D fans that he is championing. WotC is a harsh corporate mistress, after all.....

Oh please you lazy fuck, I couldn't give a rats ass what anyone thinks of me aside from my immediate friends and family, much less that a corporation "thinks" of me. Why would I?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1138863Because this is clearly coming in on the heels of the effort to get Oriental Adventures pulled because it's "offensive".
I'm offended because WOTC is going along with this stupid Maoist struggle session bullshit.

I reject their narrative on harassment, bullying and inclusivity, and if that means walking away from WOTC, then let them burn.

You mean the book they didn't pull?