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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: TonyLB on August 04, 2007, 09:03:31 AM

Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 04, 2007, 09:03:31 AM
So, I want to do some D&D.  Damn, I want to do it.  I got me a hankerin'.

Problem is, my fellow players balk on two concerns:  Rules complexity and length of commitment.

I have this suspicion that those are actually one concern phrased two different ways:  "Shit, Tony, it's been so long since we've done this game system that we'll need to learn it from scratch, and we don't want to commit twenty hours to relearning it, plus forty hours to then playing enough that we feel that the time spent relearning it was justified."

And, yeah ... if that were the only way to do things then I agree, that'd be a high bar for us to hurdle, given our tight schedules.  Time is a precious commodity.

But then in another thread, Psueodephedrine recommended that we should have a thread for brainstorming how D&D runs well in a single night, from soup to nuts, rules-intro through to a satifsying adventure.

And that, my good fellows, is the solution to my problem with my players.  Me want.  Tell me how to make this happen!

First thought:  Is it possible to make pre-gen characters in such detail that every single rule that character will ever need is printed on the character sheet?  Like, it not only has THAC0 but it has the rules for "If you want to slice a frickin' goblin in half, grab a twenty-sided die and roll below 14"?

That'd cut out the rules-explanation and character creation phase, and just let people pore over big laminated cards saying "Oh wow, this guy can slice a frickin' goblin in half on 18 or less!" and "Oh yeah?  Well this guy can frickin electrocute goblins with his mind!"
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on August 04, 2007, 09:10:06 AM
Would Microlite 20 suit your group's needs?
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: The Good Assyrian on August 04, 2007, 09:39:12 AM
Quote from: TonyLBSo, I want to do some D&D.  Damn, I want to do it.  I got me a hankerin'.

Problem is, my fellow players balk on two concerns:  Rules complexity and length of commitment.

The first question is:  what version of D&D would you like to run?  I mean, that will help determine at least the mechanical prep that you would have to do.  

In general, as a starting point for advice that would apply to all versions of the game, how about;

1. Pregen characters (already mentioned)
2. A very focussed adventure
3. A solid reason to be adventuring together to avoid a lengthy setup, so no "you meet in a bar" introductions.  Unless, of course, that is your setup...maybe they are the only customers in a tavern when Something Happens™ and they are must work together to get out of the situation.  Could be a funny riff on a standard D&D trope.  Hmmmmm...


TGA
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 04, 2007, 09:40:48 AM
Quote from: The Good AssyrianThe first question is:  what version of D&D would you like to run?  I mean, that will help determine at least the mechanical prep that you would have to do.
I'm flexible.  I'd prefer to get at least a brief taste of this new-fangled "3.5" thing that everybody's having so much fun with ... but if that turns out to be impossible to do in a one-night format then I want the possible thing.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 04, 2007, 09:41:23 AM
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Would Microlite 20 suit your group's needs?
I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't suit my desire for actual D&D, but I could be convinced otherwise.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: James J Skach on August 04, 2007, 10:31:33 AM
No offense, Doc, but the question was how to play D&D.  Now TGA asks a good question about version, but Tony has answered that.

So the preference is D&D 3.5, if possible.

And I love TGA's advice - I think it's the way to go. I think they were playing something along these lines at the ENWorld Gameday at Games Plus when I was there with Bill.  Perhaps one of the authors from there has some advice. Maybe later todayt I'll try to track one down from ENWorld and see if they are willing to answer here...
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 04, 2007, 10:37:56 AM
Quote from: TonyLBSo, I want to do some D&D.  Damn, I want to do it.  I got me a hankerin'.

Problem is, my fellow players balk on two concerns:  Rules complexity and length of commitment.

I have this suspicion that those are actually one concern phrased two different ways:  "Shit, Tony, it's been so long since we've done this game system that we'll need to learn it from scratch, and we don't want to commit twenty hours to relearning it, plus forty hours to then playing enough that we feel that the time spent relearning it was justified."

And, yeah ... if that were the only way to do things then I agree, that'd be a high bar for us to hurdle, given our tight schedules.  Time is a precious commodity.

But then in another thread, Psueodephedrine recommended that we should have a thread for brainstorming how D&D runs well in a single night, from soup to nuts, rules-intro through to a satifsying adventure.

And that, my good fellows, is the solution to my problem with my players.  Me want.  Tell me how to make this happen!

First thought:  Is it possible to make pre-gen characters in such detail that every single rule that character will ever need is printed on the character sheet?  Like, it not only has THAC0 but it has the rules for "If you want to slice a frickin' goblin in half, grab a twenty-sided die and roll below 14"?

That'd cut out the rules-explanation and character creation phase, and just let people pore over big laminated cards saying "Oh wow, this guy can slice a frickin' goblin in half on 18 or less!" and "Oh yeah?  Well this guy can frickin electrocute goblins with his mind!"

Tony, there are enough clues in this post to justify my suspicion 8 months that you have no real experience playing any current version of D&D, and have probably never even looked at it in much detail. (Which is no big deal, obviously, my problem was I thought you were misrepresenting yourself, and I am now convinced more than ever that I was right.)

In any case, I've played D&D with 6th graders, and they had no problem picking it up in a single session. Most of the details a player needs are on a typical character sheet. Certain advanced topics (like certain combat tactics.. ) are kind of beyond the scope of just-starting players.

My suggestions:

I personally would avoid pregenerated adventures. Or if you do, maybe just the Howling Horde or Slaughtergarde or something that is meant to be 1st level. But if you want to learn how to be a DM, you need to not use pregenerated anything.

If you are the GM, I would just have people make characters, draw a couple of maps, and go from there. You need 1 town, 1 dungeon (just the map at this point), 1 temple, and 1 shop. You need to create 4 NPCs- a town priest that heals the character, a shopkeeper, a tavernkeeper, and a captain of the guard. If you can build that, you have the rudiments of a campaign. Have this done before you start a  session.

Create two or three or four (or five) encounters. Make them all Encounter Level 1.  

So for example:
2 human warrior skeletons: EL 1 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm
1 wolf skeleton http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm
2 stirges http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/stirge.htm
3 Dire rats http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direRat.htm
1 Gnoll http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnoll.htm

Place them around the dungeon. Thats basicly how people start.

DO give out experience awards uniformly to everyone at the end of each session.

DONT try to give out individual awards or use some kind of system where people get XP for fulfilling "keys" or "playing their alignment". That way lies disaster. Just give out XP for overcoming or bypassing challenges. Doesn't have to be battles or monsters. A challenge could be getting past a hazardous area or crossing a river safely. or a puzzle. Or whatever else.

If possible, you may want to find someone non-forgie to be a GM. The forgies generally suck as GM's because they have so many preconceived false notions about gaming and GMing.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on August 04, 2007, 10:40:35 AM
Quote from: James J SkachNo offense, Doc, but the question was how to play D&D.  Now TGA asks a good question about version, but Tony has answered that.
Fair enough.  I was just looking for his parameters is all, since M20 is basically stripped-down D&D.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 04, 2007, 10:49:41 AM
DEFINITELY go to an Enworld gameday if you can. You will learn more from other players than anything else.

In any case, managing a 'single session' once you get started is easy. Since there's no forced or preconceived story, you can literally end it via a timer. So if you wanted to play for three hours, you can set a timer for 2 hrs, 45 minutes, and then spend the last 15 minutes wrapping up and awarding XP. You don't have to get to every encounter (or even.. any encounter, although people will probably feel cheated if they get all geared up as adventurers and don't get to 'do' anything.

The most important thing is: award XP at the end of the session and make it uniform.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: newtmonkey on August 04, 2007, 11:06:35 AM
Basic D&D (or RC or whatever) is simple enough to explain in a minute I think.   How about running a one shot dungeon crawl?  No in depth character making, everyone rolls stats, picks a class, and goes!  Play it like a tactical resource management game, keep combat simple... maybe even run some kind of deathtrap dungeon game where the goal is to get to the end with as few character deaths as possible?  Winning character gets a name!!! ;)

I've always liked the low level dungeon gameplay.  "You are a bunch of level one characters.  All the odds are stacked against you.  What are you going to do to make it through this thing?!"
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Settembrini on August 04, 2007, 11:26:36 AM
Tony,
Heed the Prussian Gamer´s Sound Advice:

click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b)

I recommend "A dark and stormy knight". It solves all your problems, except chargen. But that´s also easily solved:

take the starting kits from the PHB.

You have got a PHB, do you?
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 04, 2007, 11:43:15 AM
Quote from: SettembriniTony,
Heed the Prussian Gamer´s Sound Advice:

click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b)

I recommend "A dark and stormy knight". It solves all your problems, except chargen. But that´s also easily solved:

take the starting kits from the PHB.

You have got a PHB, haven't you?

I would like to retract my advice not to do anything pregenerated. Dark and Stormy Knight seems like a fine example of an adventure. It's a bit heavy on the boxed text for my tastes, but I think it's pretty good.

However, I have become suspicious of your post once again since I read the Q&A Commentary thread that spawned it. Are you actually interested in running D&D at all? Do you even have a gaming group?
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: dansebie on August 04, 2007, 12:02:07 PM
I avoided D&D 3.5 for quite a long time when I got back into RPGs after a ~10 year hiatus, mostly because people kept telling me it was too complex.

It's not. Seriously, it may seem intimidating when people talk about their crazy builds and advanced battlemat tactics, but it flows much better when you're actually playing than many of the earlier editions.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Calithena on August 04, 2007, 01:39:21 PM
Maw, you're being an incredible, flaming asshole on this thread in more ways than one.

I did appreciate your discussion of D&D prep though.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: droog on August 04, 2007, 02:19:30 PM
Quote from: CalithenaI did appreciate your discussion of D&D prep though.
Mind you, it's nothing any half-competent GM of any experience oughtn't to be able to come up with.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 04, 2007, 02:23:49 PM
Quote from: droogMind you, it's nothing any half-competent GM of any experience oughtn't to be able to come up with.

Well, that's really, totally all it is.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Pierce Inverarity on August 04, 2007, 02:26:59 PM
Quote from: SettembriniTony,
Heed the Prussian Gamer´s Sound Advice:

click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b)

OMG, I didn't know this page existed! Thanks!

Does anybody else have this problem where the Wizards D&D pages menu (on the left) is largely off-screen on Firefox? It sucks--I can't navigate.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 04, 2007, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: SettembriniTony,
click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b)
SWEET fuckin' link!  Thanks a bunch! :hyper:

Quote from: SettembriniI recommend "A dark and stormy knight". It solves all your problems, except chargen. But that´s also easily solved:

take the starting kits from the PHB.

You have got a PHB, do you?
Yeah, I could dig my old editions out.  But, like I said, I'm interested in getting on board with 3.5, so I may just buy new and put the work in to convert the "classic" scenarios to the new rules.

Man, if I can easily work these up so that they run in a single evening then my fellow players are gonna get a whole bunch more gobbos and skellies than they'd been anticipating.   A little work on my part to prep things in advance, and I can hit them with a new D&D module every time they get indecisive! :evillaugh:
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Tyberious Funk on August 05, 2007, 06:42:04 AM
Despite my general dislike for 3e, it's actually pretty easy to run a short scenario if you stick to first level.  I mean, there are even pre-generated characters for each class right there in the PHB.  Much of the complexity actually occurs at higher levels.  

Of course, the DM needs to have a reasonable working knowledge of the system, but the players should be able to pick up their parts on-the-fly.  Particularly if they are already familiar with older editions of D&D.  So just crack open a book and start reading.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Rezendevous on August 05, 2007, 09:38:17 AM
Yep, D&D at 1st (or even 2nd and 3rd) levels is just as simple as many other systems.  Actually, the game is very easy to learn if you start at a low level and progress through the levels, because you only have to learn a little bit at a time.  It's when someone who's never played tries to run a 12th level character with a slew of special abilities, feats, and magic that it gets difficult.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Alnag on August 05, 2007, 09:41:41 AM
If you have a chance to get it, I would for one-night game definitely use Monte Cook's Temple of Mysteries: In media res (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Temple).

I recomend this one, beacause

a) pregenerated characters
b) classical "dungeon-type" adventure
c) not so classical "dungeon-typ" adventure
d) great surprise/RP-opportunities
e) designed for exactly one-night (actually DnD 30th anniversary game, but no matter 4-6 hours)
f) it is great opportunity to see, how one of the designers meant the game to be played.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 09:50:41 AM
Quote from: AlnagIf you have a chance to get it, I would for one-night game definitely use Monte Cook's Temple of Mysteries: In media res (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Temple).
Looks tempting, but also looks like it might be high-level.  I can't tell from the description.  Maybe I'm just missing it somewhere obvious, though.

Given the advice I've gotten so far, that makes me a little leery.  Before I shell out $5 (admittedly, not much) can someone in the know tell me what level those pre-gens are, and how many rules they pull into the mix?
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Settembrini on August 05, 2007, 12:03:05 PM
Tony, do as I say: Use the fucking pre-gens from the PHB. Have you actually read it?
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Alnag on August 05, 2007, 12:07:17 PM
Quote from: TonyLBLooks tempting, but also looks like it might be high-level.  I can't tell from the description.

Well... cover says 4th - 5th level. The pregens are actually 4th level. But I would recommend to wait until somebody else will either confirm or deny this as a suitable adventure to use.

In the meantime, you might want to read the review of it (http://www.d20zines.com/v7/node/1527).
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 12:08:18 PM
Quote from: SettembriniTony, do as I say: Use the fucking pre-gens from the PHB. Have you actually read it?
The 3.5 one?  Nope.  I haven't felt like dropping that kind of cash on the books before I have some plan for actually getting them into play.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 12:11:42 PM
Quote from: AlnagWell... cover says 4th - 5th level. The pregens are actually 4th level. But I would recommend to wait until somebody else will either confirm or deny this as a suitable adventure to use.
See, just like I predicted ... somewhere obvious that I overlooked. :sweatdrop:

Quote from: AlnagIn the meantime, you might want to read the review of it (http://www.d20zines.com/v7/node/1527).
Awesome, thanks!
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Settembrini on August 05, 2007, 12:17:20 PM
QuoteThe 3.5 one? Nope. I haven't felt like dropping that kind of cash on the books before I have some plan for actually getting them into play.                                                              __________________

The Fuck? Are you serious?
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Aos on August 05, 2007, 12:17:27 PM
Quote from: TonyLBThe 3.5 one?  Nope.  I haven't felt like dropping that kind of cash on the books before I have some plan for actually getting them into play.


You might try the YA section at you're local library (if'n yer in the US, anyway) they often have these. Otherwise 3.0 books are really cheap on amazon.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Settembrini on August 05, 2007, 12:30:56 PM
Really TonyLB, that´s pretty moronic. First you buy yourself a PHB, then you come back.
You are insulting our sincere efforts of helping you with that behaviour. The time you spent online with this thread should have been spent on reading the book.
If you want to DM a game, and can´t even be botherted to buy the basic book, then the game will fail.

I´m really wondering what kind of persons you guys are...

Fuck, with that kind of engagement and enthusiasm it´s really no wonder Jungle Speed is a hit with your ilk...
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 12:34:25 PM
Quote from: AosYou might try the YA section at you're local library (if'n yer in the US, anyway) they often have these. Otherwise 3.0 books are really cheap on amazon.
Good call, thanks!  Library sounds like an excellent bet.  Our local system has county-wide requests, so if it's anywhere in any of their branches I can have it shipped over post-haste.

Saw the Star Wars RPG book at my local branch just the other day, in fact ... so I know there's at least some RPG material there.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Settembrini on August 05, 2007, 12:41:32 PM
Wow.
You are a game designer, and can´t be bothered with owning a PHB.
O-M-Fucking-G.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Alnag on August 05, 2007, 01:04:04 PM
Well... I am also bit surprised that you don't have DnD PHB. Because it is such must have (at least 3.0e version if not 3.5e).
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: One Horse Town on August 05, 2007, 01:06:21 PM
I want an actual play thread Tony.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: dansebie on August 05, 2007, 01:18:43 PM
Quote from: TonyLBThe 3.5 one?  Nope.  I haven't felt like dropping that kind of cash on the books before I have some plan for actually getting them into play.

1. Buy the core books (or at least the PHB)
2. Familiarize yourself with the basic rules. Don't worry too much about getting the crunchy stuff 100% right at this point.
3. Gather some players, create characters using the starting packages in the PHB.
4. Run the players through a pre-gen adventure from the wotc site.

I really have no idea why you'd need a more detailed plan than that. :confused:
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Rezendevous on August 05, 2007, 01:33:26 PM
Quote from: SettembriniWow.
You are a game designer, and can´t be bothered with owning a PHB.
O-M-Fucking-G.

To be fair, he could just download the SRD.  Wouldn't have the pre-gens, but rules-wise it would be fine.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: The Good Assyrian on August 05, 2007, 01:34:01 PM
Quote from: SettembriniReally TonyLB, that´s pretty moronic. First you buy yourself a PHB, then you come back.
You are insulting our sincere efforts of helping you with that behaviour. The time you spent online with this thread should have been spent on reading the book.
If you want to DM a game, and can´t even be botherted to buy the basic book, then the game will fail.

Sett, to be fair to Tony he totally copped to the fact that he was *considering* giving 3.5 a try.

Quote from: TonyLBI'm flexible.  I'd prefer to get at least a brief taste of this new-fangled "3.5" thing that everybody's having so much fun with ... but if that turns out to be impossible to do in a one-night format then I want the possible thing.

Listen, man, why do you feel the need to be so hostile here?  Tony admitted that he wanted to give 3.5 a shot and because he hasn't gotten the books (a very common circumstance for newbie players to any system) you are tearing him a new one?  Would you treat any other new 3.5 player in such a shabby way, or is it personal?

For the record, if it is indeed personal I have no problem with that.  I just question if it belongs in this thread, that's all.


TGA
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: J Arcane on August 05, 2007, 01:37:02 PM
http://d20srd.org
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Aos on August 05, 2007, 01:42:50 PM
Quote from: The Good AssyrianListen, man, why do you feel the need to be so hostile here?  Tony admitted that he wanted to give 3.5 a shot and because he hasn't gotten the books (a very common circumstance for newbie players to any system) you are tearing him a new one?  Would you treat any other new 3.5 player in such a shabby way, or is it personal?

I think he's probably drunk, and he's part of the crowd that takes all this shit waaaay too seriously- notice how he attempts to speak for everyone?
I think that the library or the SRD are excellent ways to get started.

Hell, if I'd done that my 3.0 books wouldn't be gathering dust in the bottom of a box, and neither would my best friends. they'd likely be in the possession of someone who might someday make some kind of use of them.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 05, 2007, 01:50:15 PM
Hehe. This is kinda funny. ok.

Behold swarms away! (Did I fucking peg that or what?)

Yeah, the srd is an ok way to go (not an excellent one by any means, but ok) because it misses vital insight into chargen and the general organizational format. If you want to try this for free, just join one of the hundreds of local D&D of games going on anywhere any actual gaming goes on in the world, and identify yourself as a new player. If you live anywhere near Baltimore, I'd invite you to kickoff of my Grail campaign that starts sometime after GenCon.

Other links that work out ok are the Pathguy one: http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 05, 2007, 01:57:40 PM
Ok, here ya go. 5 minute Amazon search.

D&D 3.5 Players Handbooks in 'used and new'. Around 7-10$

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0786928867/ref=dp_olp_1/104-6425152-9340758?ie=UTF8&qid=1186337448&sr=1-2

If you can't afford that, you just aren't serious.


Additionally:
3.5 DMG: around $11
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0786928891/ref=dp_olp_1/104-6425152-9340758?ie=UTF8&qid=1186337448&sr=1-2

3.5 Monster manual: around $10
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/078692893X/ref=dp_olp_1/104-6425152-9340758?ie=UTF8&qid=1186337448&sr=1-

If you want to get brand new in a set, Amazon has a deal where the package is like $45-50.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Settembrini on August 05, 2007, 01:58:25 PM
That´s what I´m talking about.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: JongWK on August 05, 2007, 02:23:19 PM
Quote from: SettembriniTony,
Heed the Prussian Gamer´s Sound Advice:

click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b)

HOLY SHIT! :eek:

There are enough adventures in there to run a campaign for years.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 05:10:58 PM
Quote from: One Horse TownI want an actual play thread Tony.
Absolutely!  After all the help folks have provided here, it's the least I can do.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: Abyssal MawIf you live anywhere near Baltimore, I'd invite you to kickoff of my Grail campaign that starts sometime after GenCon.
Rockin'!  I do live somewhere near Baltimore.  We should get together ... but yeah, after GenCon.  Crazy busy until then.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 05, 2007, 05:31:11 PM
Quote from: TonyLBRockin'!  I do live somewhere near Baltimore.  We should get together ... but yeah, after GenCon.  Crazy busy until then.

We play on Thursdays, and the time is usally 7:30-10:30. I'll send you more details the closer I get to the start date for the new game.

1st level, any class, any race, 28 point build, all WOTC sources legal.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 05:56:57 PM
Quote from: Abyssal MawWe play on Thursdays, and the time is usally 7:30-10:30. I'll send you more details the closer I get to the start date for the new game.
Welllll ... as you might guess from the subject here, I'm not so much looking to join a long-running campaign.  Even if I did live that close to Bal'mre, I don't really sign on for the long-haul any more.  When you've got some single-evening event, gimme a holler, though!  It'd be great to meet and get some gaming in.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: James J Skach on August 05, 2007, 06:21:33 PM
Tony,

Take the opportunity.  I'd play with AM and his group in a heartbeat.  That's how desperate I am! ;)

Play for the first level - probably a few weeks worth.  Maybe AM can even work it into the idea, who knows?  But at least then you'll be familiar enough with low level play that you could easily handle a one-shot for your friends...

Just a thought,
Jim
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 05, 2007, 08:09:23 PM
Well, we do arrange for 1 offs for Living Greyhawk, so that's a possibility. And we're all starting anew because of the Ruins arc.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 08:18:15 PM
Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, we do arrange for 1 offs for Living Greyhawk, so that's a possibility. And we're all starting anew because of the Ruins arc.
Perfecto!  Please keep me in mind, thanks.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: arminius on August 05, 2007, 08:54:46 PM
Sett! Calm down, please!

Tony, there's just one thing I want to add to this, seeing as I'm just about as 3.x illiterate as you are. Nevertheless I think I have some insight into dungeons. I've read a report of people "trying out [Basic] D&D" as a one-shot in which they basically ran headlong through the dungeon, fighting everything, dying, and then just rolling up new characters. In other words, playing brainlessly.

If you play the game half-assed, it's going to suck. (That might be less true for 3.x since I gather the combats themselves have a nice crunchy tactical quality at the individual level which the older versions didn't.) Dungeon-crawling is at least as much about exploration and strategizing as it is about hacking. If you don't give a damn about your character and you don't worry about what might be around the next corner, instead just blundering ahead, it's going to be dull and pointless. (Though, again, the crunchiness of 3.x might at least turn the experience into a bunch of FPS-like setpieces.)
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: TonyLB on August 05, 2007, 09:06:42 PM
Elliot:  I'm right with you.  I played basic and AD&D for years, as have all my fellow players.  It isn't the concept of D&D that I worry about us having trouble with, it's getting back into the swing of the rules.

EDIT:  So ... damn fine advice which, I hope, we've already got well drilled into us by past experience.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on August 06, 2007, 02:02:03 PM
Two pieces of advice:

Write out things like how grapples and trips work in a list on an index card. This speeds things up drastically, because it means that instead of having to open the book and look it up, you can just consult the card. Do the same thing with spells if possible. You want to know range, components, effect, etc. Write them out beforehand for most of the spells you think the PCs will know, and then deal them out as needed. That way, PCs end up with a deck of cards that they can throw down effects from. It makes things much faster and easier.

Also, don't sweat Attacks of Opportunity. They're the most difficult mechanic of 3.5 to learn. Coast past them if you can't remember, or photocopy / print off the chart from the PHB/SRD.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: J Arcane on August 06, 2007, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: PseudoephedrineTwo pieces of advice:

Write out things like how grapples and trips work in a list on an index card. This speeds things up drastically, because it means that instead of having to open the book and look it up, you can just consult the card. Do the same thing with spells if possible. You want to know range, components, effect, etc. Write them out beforehand for most of the spells you think the PCs will know, and then deal them out as needed. That way, PCs end up with a deck of cards that they can throw down effects from. It makes things much faster and easier.

Also, don't sweat Attacks of Opportunity. They're the most difficult mechanic of 3.5 to learn. Coast past them if you can't remember, or photocopy / print off the chart from the PHB/SRD.
while there are a few bits on the chart for AoO's that might seem odd, by and large you can pretty well spot rule them with just this common sense rule:  Take an AoO anytime you commit an action that amounts to letting your guard down, or try and move past or near an opponent.

It really isn't sizably different from the zone of control mechanics of most wargames, if you're using a map board.  Basically, if you let your guard down or move into or out of the squares surrounding an opponent, you take an AoO.  

There are some odd specific applications of AoO's as described on the chart, but they're comfortably ignored really, and in some cases I think following this common sense guideline produces results more comfortably in the spirit of the concept.

I am not however comfortable generally with axing them altogether, because they form one of the cornerstones of the game's tactics.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 06, 2007, 02:24:00 PM
The main mitigating factor in judging AoO's is the collaborative sieve.

That is to say: AoO's aren't actually a "judgement call". There are plain old rules for them. So does that mean you have to be an expert on them?

No, as long as anyone else at the table is an expert. Or the expertise is shared out amongst multiple players, as it nearly always is.

Something like this nearly always happens:

Player A: "I move here (indicates square).. and then I cast.."
Player B: "Is that through the Ogre's threat zone?"
Player C: "Nope, not if he does it this way. (demonstrates alternate route) ..But the casting will provoke"
Player D: "You could use your wand. Wands don't provoke.."
Player A: "Yeah, I'll use the wand. Thanks. Ok, move there, drawing wand and firing scorching rays. Point Blank shot feat applies, right?"
GM: "Yeah. Point Blank gives you a +1. Are you guys done yet?"


See, you can have entire rules adjudications with absolutely no involvement from the GM.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on August 06, 2007, 02:27:54 PM
Yeap. But if it's a single session with folks who aren't super familiar with 3.5, no one's going to have that expertise. That's what Tony's planning for, if I understand him.

In that case, photocopy the chart, check it whenever you think you need to, and let people do take-backs if they provoke one without realising it during their action.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: Settembrini on August 06, 2007, 02:36:48 PM
You guys are overcautious. He´ll have four fights, with two skeletons a Bugbear Zombie, a Spider and a critter I forgot.
There´ll be not many AoOs.

Stay smooth.
Title: D&D in a single session
Post by: beeber on August 06, 2007, 05:00:40 PM
Quote from: SettembriniYou guys are overcautious. He´ll have four fights, with two skeletons a Bugbear Zombie, a Spider and a critter I forgot.
There´ll be not many AoOs.

Stay smooth.

ha!  now you've doomed him to nothing but AoO's in those combats.  the characters are all whirling dervishes, you see, and wish to literally run circles around their opponents!  dance-tactics away, fetch the "AoO? yes/no" chart.
Title: Advice for one-shot D&D
Post by: russell on August 06, 2007, 10:24:48 PM
Here's some contrarian advice.

1a. Don't run a pure hack-and-slash game for a one-shot.  That's just dull, because as people pointed out, beginners don't have a good sense of strategy, and low-level characters don't have very many options.  So fights, while exciting, are fairly mindless.  I'd prefer a long investigation/exploration, broken up by skirmishes, with a short but dramatic fight at the end.  
1b.  Let them use their skills.  It's fun and easy.  
2.  Use slightly higher than first-level characters.  2nd level characters are only slightly more complex than first-level, and have more staying power.   In a one-shot, you don't want to be spending all your time resting and recovering spells and hit points.
3.  I'd recommend not allowing bards, monks, or druids. Druids are too complicated, since they have an animal companion and summon. I think monks in a Western fantasy game are stupid, and would usually disallow them out of aesthetics.  But they also disarm and grapple, a bad thing for a beginners game.   Bards are too difficult to make non-wimpy.  Barbarians, fighters, paladins,  rangers, rogues, and sorcerors are pretty straight-forward at low levels.  Wizards are OK, if you don't try to optimize them.  (Give the wizard a small collection of scrolls to start out, to avoid the resting and recovering biz.  This replaces the masterwork weapon that everyone else has.) Clerics are over-complicated, but a cleric is necessary if you want to avoid resting and recovering every fight.  Make a simple, pre-gen cleric.
4a. Pick feats for pre-gen characters that simply add numbers, rather than giving options.
For example, weapon focus, improved initiative, lightning reflexes, spell focus, point blank shot.  These just change precomputed numbers on the character sheet.  They aren't a waste, but don't add another rule to learn.
 4b..  Pick simple spells for pre-gen characters.  Wizards and sorcerors will only need to
cast the spells on their character sheets.  So keep the spells simple.  Shield, mage armor, magic missile, sleep, ray of enfeeblement, color spray, silent image, and expeditious retreat are all pretty effective and simple to use.  OK, charm person and enlarge person are more effective.  But they require you to recompute things or keep track of an NPC.  So these characters don't know those spells.   Clerics choose their spells from the cleric list, but put suggestions for simple spells. Give them simple domains, like Healing and Protection.  Most of their spell slots will be used to Cure Light Wounds in the end, anyway.  
5.  If you follow the guidelines above, and don't have the characters attacked by
bears, wolves or assassin vines, you'll never have anyone trip, sunder or grapple anyone or anything. That's good.  
5.  DO USE ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY.  For low-level games, AoO are really what strategy is about, and they aren't hard to learn.  You don't need minis, either.   Whenever a character goes by a monster (or vice versa), runs up to or away from a big monster, or does something within reach of a monster that doesn't involve keeping a defensive posture, the opponent gets an attack of opportunity.  If they aren't surrounded or cornered, they can move or  take a 5' step first to avoid this attack.   Spell-casters  can also choose to cast defensively to avoid their due AoO, with a concentration check of  15+spell level.  At level 2, they might have a +6 in concentration, needing a 16, making it 50/50, usually not worth it.  With combat casting or spell focus (concentration), it becomes a viable strategy.  If they fail, they lose the spell, but still avoid the attack.   (Remember, no one is EVER grappling, disarming, tripping, or sundering...EVER!  This avoids the non-intuitive AoO rules.)

That's my advice, and I've basically followed it successfully in the past.  I've run games with four beginner adults or two beginner children with no problems.  I wasn't a novice, but I'm also not a rules freak either.  In my games with experienced players, I let the most knowledgeable players tell me what the rules are.