http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dramp/20100709

Cleric class preview for Essentials. VERY different from standard 4E Cleric. Don't need DDI to check. I'm going to wait to comment.

I am confused by the Essentials as it seems to have morphed from 4e-lite into 4.5e.  Which isn't surprising really.   They are the same company that did 3e/3.5 so its probably a core business model.

However, looking at the Warpriest, I just see a variant Cleric.  Not big deal.

Looks like WoTC has been listening to a lot of the complaints people had about 4E classes.

Quote from: Shazbot79;392714Looks like WoTC has been listening to a lot of the complaints people had about 4E classes.

Yes, but it looks like they're not using 3.5E as a model, nor are they gearing this towards the non-4E playing complainers. If they're going back, its towards AD&D more than anything.

Good lord folks this is no different when Magic the Gathering swaps cards around in it's core set.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;392717If they're going back, its towards AD&D more than anything.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Mearls is pitching in on this ENWorld thread about the preview (starting page 2).

Hey, look, it has dailies!

I don't think the XP table is really a change -- it's just a different way of presenting the ability. Sure, the warpriest gets Resurrection at level 8... but that's when any other ritual caster can learn Raise Dead.

The way they handled mixing Essentials and non-Essentials powers is not what I expected, but not bad. Some Essentials-only powers, which don't sound like they'll be choices -- rather, those will be the class features. Otherwise, it's mix and match.

One interesting nugget hidden in the middle:

"World Flavor: The character classes, powers, and other features had to have a place in the Dungeons & Dragons world. It is easy to divorce mechanics from any sort of grounding in the 'reality' of the world. We wanted to avoid that by providing a context and logic that underscored the options we were presenting."

So there's a nod to the dissociated complaint. I will reiterate that I've never said nobody should have a problem with any given mechanic; I've just spent a certain amount of time trying to convince people that their problems are not necessarily universal. To no avail. Either way I'm glad to see WotC extending a hand.

It's still not 4.5.

One the one hand- of course it has dailies. On the other hand.. maybe that's a typo! (haha!)

The XP table is exactly the same... Although they gave the cleric the Resurrection Ritual at level 8. Normally buying rituals is somewhat optional. Often they will start a ritual caster off with a couple of rituals but they won't get any more for free unless they buy them.

Quote from: Spinachcat;392712I am confused by the Essentials as it seems to have morphed from 4e-lite into 4.5e.

Yeah, I'm confused as well.  Up until the last couple of days, all I remember hearing was it presented as 4e-lite.  But now they are making it very clear it is 4.5.


Actually, the way they keep making massive rule changes with the errata lately, 4e is becoming 4.5e anyhow.

I have to say, the whole thing is really putting me off the game.  And not because of the changes themselves - I think they sound positive and are the kind of direction I wish they would have gone in the first place.

No, the problem is once these changes (recent errata and essentials) start making their way into the DDI, all hell is going to break loose with my group.  Having major changes halfway through the campaign is going to cause nothing but confusion and frustration, which is going to be a major headache for me.  The magic missile change in particular is going to cause a bitchfit of epic proportions with the wizard player; I can already feel my ears beginning to bleed in anticipation.

I'm tempted to end the campaign right now and switch over to one of the other games I'd like to run (including a couple of my own design) just to avoid the inevitable, but since they just renewed their DDI subscription, I'm pretty much stuck with continuing on for at least the rest of the year.

I don't think 4.5 is the best analogy. 3.5 replaced 3.0, while Essentials is just adding to the existing 4E pile. Essentials being Unearthed Arcana or 3.5E's PHB2 is a better analogy.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;392755I don't think 4.5 is the best analogy. 3.5 replaced 3.0, while Essentials is just adding to the existing 4E pile. Essentials being Unearthed Arcana or 3.5E's PHB2 is a better analogy.

It's really up to the players. Early in 3.5 people used 3.0 splats, but eventually only 3.5 was considered "official" except for a few borderline products like BoVD.

In the case of 4e, I wouldn't worry about that thanks to DDI/errata. People are going to play one big fat edition more or less uniformly thanks to that. So old stuff won't stop being "official" and new stuff won't have a barrier to entry in groups with lots of old stuff.

It's a unique kind of revision in that regard, I think.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;392717If they're going back, its towards AD&D more than anything.

Quote from: Benoist;392720I'll believe it when I see it.

Agreed.  I don't see so much as the slightest hint of AD&D in that preview.

Quote from: StormBringer;392774Agreed.  I don't see so much as the slightest hint of AD&D in that preview.

Not in mechanics, but more in spirit. Aiming at the concept of the 2E Cleric/Specialty Priest, not the execution.

Also, I say AD&D because I see a distinct lack of 3.5E in there while I do see nods to the past. The Domains for the Warpriest look more like 2E's specialty priests than 3E's domains. 3E domains were just kind of tacked on the base Cleric framework, while the Essentials Warpriest seems to be defined by the Domain, which is more like the 2E Priest. 3E was about customization than anything else, and the Essentials classes(in and of themselves) will be less customizable than standard 4E classes. This makes Essentials automatically further away from 3.5E.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;392779Not in mechanics, but more in spirit. Aiming at the concept of the 2E Cleric/Specialty Priest, not the execution.

2e didn't have specialty Priests.  That was expanded upon in Faiths and Avatars, almost exclusively, and wasn't anything like a 'build'.  It was entirely optional, in fact.  And it was almost a footnote in the PHB.

QuoteThe Domains for the Warpriest look more like 2E's specialty priests than 3E's domains. 3E domains were just kind of tacked on the base Cleric framework, while the Essentials Warpriest seems to be defined by the Domain, which is more like the 2E Priest. 3E was about customization than anything else, and the Essentials classes(in and of themselves) will be less customizable than standard 4E classes. This makes Essentials automatically further away from 3.5E.

The only thing you can customize in 2e or 3.x was the feat or skill/NWP selection, really.  Other than that, they were both fairly rigid class/level systems.  And having two or three build options isn't really 'customizable' to a significant degree, so 4e really doesn't lag noticeably in that regard.