Quote from: Cole;405646I've become a bigger fan of "luck point," "action point," etc. type systems in RPGs - seemed goofy at first but after trying them out at the table, now I think they can allow a little bit of "insurance" in tight spots while still giving the players/PC's agency, and letting the GM be more objective.

See, I've been a fan of this myself as it also puts the onus on the players to decide what, to them, is Super Important Can't Fail stuff.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;4057663.5 is a better game than Pathfinder.

How they managed to achieve that with all of the solicited advice they could have pulled upon is hilarious. Along the same lines, the APG is crap too.

Trying to create the perfect RPG is a doomed endeavour. I think trying to create the perfect version of an existing, complex RPG is extra doomed. When 3.5 came out, I thought the changes to 3.0 were a mixed bag. By the time Pathfinder came out, my reaction to any given change was "oh, what is the fucking point?" For what it's worth, that was my same reaction to, say, Iron Heroes.

I guess that the Pathfinder RPG sells well enough to argue that there's a decent customer base who thinks Pathfinder's better than 3.5, and they probably felt they had to make a certain minimum level of changes to make the game a marketable product; maybe "3.5 plus our house rules" seemed like a decent gamble and "3.5 with different layout" didn't. By the time of PF's release I was burned out enough with 3.5* that I would have a hard time getting into the head of the target market, much less am I that market.

*(Still a good game, just gotten all I can out of it for at least a few years.)

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;405769See, I've been a fan of this myself as it also puts the onus on the players to decide what, to them, is Super Important Can't Fail stuff.

Yep. If I'm openly choosing to add a couple extra points to a die roll, I'm bolstering my own chance at victory. If the GM is secretly choosing to add a couple extra points to a die roll, I'm getting cheated out of my own chance at victory. Maybe it's even a small hypocrisy (though I think the openness keeps that line drawn) but as a PC, that's how I feel, so as a GM I try to keep it the same way.

I wonder if generally speaking the "polish up the dice results a little" GMs are more the ones who GM almost exclusively, or the ones who switch it up between GM and PC. I could see either making sense, and I doubt there's much of a way to get an insight to this other than anecdotal evidence. But still, I wonder. I've seen both categories do some pretty severe railroading, so "subtle" railroading is gonna be in the palette too.

Quote from: Cole;405770Trying to create the perfect RPG is a doomed endeavour. I think trying to create the perfect version of an existing, complex RPG is extra doomed.

I agree. All you'll basically accomplish by doing this is making the game way more extreme than it already is, which will please the fans of said game even more, but completely alienate other people searching for something else in RPGs.

Quote from: Cole;405770When 3.5 came out, I thought the changes to 3.0 were a mixed bag. By the time Pathfinder came out, my reaction to any given change was "oh, what is the fucking point?" For what it's worth, that was my same reaction to, say, Iron Heroes.

Well, what I really like about Pathfinder is that for many classes, they added an additional layer of customization, like for instance the Sorcerer's bloodlines, or the Wizards now-codified schools. It adds depths to character and gives the occasion to give more toys to the PCs. I think it's cool. Now you get something like the Advanced Player's Guide, and what you get is basically a 3.5 frame that is exponentially expanded, particularly if you understand what they did and start applying it yourself by adding stuff to it from your own campaign. Then man, Pathfinder shines for sure.

As for Iron Heroes well, I'm biased.
Love this game.

Quote from: Cole;405770I think trying to create the perfect version of an existing, complex RPG is extra doomed. When 3.5 came out, I thought the changes to 3.0 were a mixed bag. By the time Pathfinder came out, my reaction to any given change was "oh, what is the fucking point?"

It must be a lot worse than trying to maintain a huge computer program which was written in a spaghetti code manner, with tons of hacks and workarounds.  (Compounding the aggravation is when the spaghetti code was written in Fortran or Cobol).

Quote from: Cole;405770When 3.5 came out, I thought the changes to 3.0 were a mixed bag.

I still don't understand why they got rid of stacking crit modifiers.  

Or at least why they didn't errata them by in after Reynolds was like "Hey dudes...low damage high crit range weapons suck now."

Quote from: Peregrin;405784I still don't understand why they got rid of stacking crit modifiers.  

Or at least why they didn't errata them by in after Reynolds was like "Hey dudes...low damage high crit range weapons suck now."

I think there were a lot of complaints and WOTC listened to the complaints rather than statistical analysis. It makes a certain sense, I suppose. Having a nerfed Scythe guy sucks, having your character whacked in one hit by a tricked out Scythe NPC sucks more immediately and viscerally. Sitting at the computer, I figure "it happens," but I can see why the design team would fix a rule that "ain't broke" if a vocal portion of their customer base seems to really hate it. I think that's the root of a lot of the 3.5 changes.

Yeah, I wasn't hugely impressed with the GMG.  It seemed a little too  blog-like to me - "here's on page on cultures!  And one page on naval combat!"  Of course, I don't know quite why I think that - it's very similar to the 1e DMG approach, which I think they were trying to emulate a lot.  I guess in the end my problem is that a random table with 20 things isn't going to be useful for all that long.  I'd rather have a real supplement on plots instead of a page wasted on plot stuff that won't be usable for long.  But I guess for a new GM that would be a good jumpstart.

I've gotten use out of all the NPCs, though. Doing up high level NPCs is one of the worst, most time-consuming parts of GMing.  And finally having a proper random magic item chart is good (that should have been in the main book!).

@Cole: Are you serious? How you derived 'perfect' from what I said is anyone's guess. Paizo failed to improve the game they were supposedly continuing to publish for. Nowhere does perfect even enter that conservation.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;405815@Cole: Are you serious? How you derived 'perfect' from what I said is anyone's guess. Paizo failed to improve the game they were supposedly continuing to publish for. Nowhere does perfect even enter that conservation.

Perfect probably was too strong a word. I mean to say that "improvement" is subjective. I don't think Pathfinder was an improvement, either, though, just more tinkering of questionable value. Given the choice of two I'd lean to 3.5.

Quote from: Cole;405818I don't think Pathfinder was an improvement, either, though, just more tinkering of questionable value. Given the choice of two I'd lean to 3.5.

Wonder if anyone would have picked up Pathfinder, if they (ie. Bulmahn et al) had dumped the 3.5E SRD and designed their own ruleset which ended up  resembling something like 4E Essentials or Savage Worlds.  In other words, their own fantasy heartbreaker devoid of 3.5E SRD content.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;405742All this book taught me was that village idiots have CR 1/3, which means that 4 of them are a reasonable challenge for 1st level PCs. I eagerly await the opportunity to apply templates like swarm, half-dragon and zombie to them.

"As you enter the village, you are swarmed by retards. Roll initiative."

:rotfl: This post makes up for all the bad posts you've ever made. I officially love you.

QuoteAll this book taught me was that village idiots have CR 1/3, which means that 4 of them are a reasonable challenge for 1st level PCs. I eagerly await the opportunity to apply templates like swarm, half-dragon and zombie to them.

"As you enter the village, you are swarmed by retards. Roll initiative."

awesome