So, how dim can Frank be? Frank can be dim enough to make grand pronouncements about the multiclassing rules without actually understanding them. For the benefit of people who don't care about 4e, here's a quick summation:

There is one or more multiclass feat for each class. The first multiclass feat you take gives you some small flavor related to the class. For example, barbarians get a bit of extra damage for one fight per day. It also allows you to qualify as a member of that class for certain purposes. Finally, it unlocks the power swap multiclass feats.

Here's the lowest level power swap multiclass feat:

Novice Power [Multiclass Encounter]
Prerequisite: Any class-specific multiclass feat, 4th level
Benefit: You can swap one encounter power you know for one encounter power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.
Note: If you have no encounter attack powers, this feat grants no benefit to you.

Should be pretty clear. You take the feat; you need to be 4th level or above to take it. You also need to have taken a class-specific multiclass feat. If you take the feat, you can choose any encounter power you know and swap it for one of the same level or lower from the other class.

At 4th level, you're going to have a level 1 encounter power and a level 3 encounter power, no matter whether you're using an Essentials build or an existing build. Again, read the links -- you can verify this. Anyone claiming otherwise is simply wrong. So you immediately have a choice of two powers to swap. But you can also take this feat at level 22, say, in which case you have a bunch more encounter powers to choose from.

Thus, even if Frank was right -- which he's not -- you could take that feat at level 4, as soon as possible, and swap out your level 1 wizard encounter power for an encounter power of whatever class you happened to choose. When Frank says "the abandonment of the standard ability progression has left the 4e multiclass feats not making any sense at all," he is 100% factually wrong.

Just for completeness, you don't have to take Novice Power to multiclass. If you want to take the daily power swap feat at level 10, you can. Novice Power is not a prerequisite. Most psionic classes don't have encounter powers, and they can still multiclass, they just don't have access to that feat.

Quote from: Thanlis;394599Frank, you really, really need to stop letting your emotions get in the way of your ability to read. I mean, this is seriously bad. Here is how you've just committed a crime against reading comprehension.

First, the level 3 row in the chart shows that wizards (still) get an encounter power at level 3. I mean, it's that fucking simple. Go look at it. If you compare the chart of spells known per level to the last column of the chart on page 29 of the PHB, you will notice that they are nearly identical through levels 26, at which point the Essentials wizard has one fewer utility powers.

Of course, that's the utility power gained from your epic destiny, which is why it doesn't show up on the wizard chart.

There's also a note that says certain wizard paragon paths gain an extra encounter and utility power. Every paragon path printed to date has that feature. But, yeah -- you could write a paragon path that doesn't get a utility at level 12 and an encounter at level 11 and a daily at level 20. There is, in fact, nothing in the rules that says you can't.

But don't get distracted by that. I want to make this point again, and then I'm going to get all wild and make another post:

Frank failed to read the fucking chart.

Uhhh... no. You failed to read the charts and the class description. Yes, the new Wizard gets "Encounter Powers" as a 3rd level class feature, but no that does not mean that he has a 3rd level Encounter Power to trade away.

What he has is a couple of Level 3 Encounter Powers in his spell book, and 2 slots that he can prepare Wizard Encounter Powers into. Those slots he has don't have a 3rd level power slot or anything, it's literally just the number 2.

So if you swapped one of the encounter powers from your spellbook (which isn't even exactly yours, subject to spell preparation) for some other power (like a Swordmage power or something), then you'd still have your other 3rd level spells in your spell book. And you'd still have 2 Wizard Encounter Preparation Slots.

So of the two available readings, the more likely one is that you simply can't get the benefit from Novice Power at all. The other reading is that it gives way more power than it's officially supposed to, because you are trading away a power you aren't even preparing to get a new power you can actually use.

Remember, the Wizard Preparation slots don't go up and down with regards to what other sources of powers you do or do not have. In fact, it says this:

Quote from: Actual Fucking Class Description of the Spell BookThese are the powers that you can use during that day, in addition to your at-will attack powers, cantrips, and nonwizard powers, such as a racial power.

So yes, I really did read it. Thanliss, I know you're a shameless 4rrie, but try not to be such a stupid fucking asshole about it. Or at least, make for damn sure that you're not being a moron before you start ranting.

-Frank

Quote from: Settembrini;394470This statement is so far out, I am considering puttin gpoor Peregrine to the IL, just because I fear we do not even share the same hobby. The Fuck?

I was pushing the point in regards to the practicality of a specific philosophy concerning the evolution of a game's standardized rules. I didn't say it was my personally preferred method.

Jesus, you've got a stick up your ass.  Add me to the IL.  Please.

Shit, I barely pay attention to the mechanics of games I like, let alone ones I don't.  This sort of in-depth shit is beyond me.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;394608Uhhh... no. You failed to read the charts and the class description. Yes, the new Wizard gets "Encounter Powers" as a 3rd level class feature, but no that does not mean that he has a 3rd level Encounter Power to trade away.

No, actually, it does. This is how wizards have worked since day one. Page 158 of the PHB:

QuoteDaily and Utility Spells: Your spellbook also holds your daily and utility spells. You begin knowing two daily spells, one of which you can use on any given day. Each time you gain a level that lets you select a daily spell or a utility spell, choose two different daily spells or utility spells of that level to add to your book. After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level. You can't prepare the same spell twice.

Extending this functionality to encounters doesn't change the way the class works, nor does it break anything. Even if you're being anal about RAW, the feat would work. Let's break it down!

"You begin knowing two daily spells." Or, if you want to go by the description in the Essentials preview, "Your spellbook holds the spells you know and gives you unrivaled versatility."

The feat says "You can swap one encounter power you know for one encounter power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into."

So... you swap. You take one encounter power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into, and you know that power. Now, if your DM's a hardass, you can't put that power in your spellbook unless it's actually a spell, which is to say it's a power from one of the arcane power source classes. That would definitely be a limitation. On the other hand, it certainly wouldn't be a new one.

People have been talking about this for two years. Did you think you'd found some exciting new edge case that nobody knew about?

My head's spinning, and I play the game...wasn't Essentials supposed to be easier?

Quote from: Doom;394618My head's spinning, and I play the game...wasn't Essentials supposed to be easier?

*shrug*

Take the power swap feat. Swap out the two level 3 encounter powers in your spellbook for one level 3 encounter prayer from a divine class. Done. That's not going to break the game, it's probably the intent, and it's not worth losing sleep over.

If you're confused, don't blame me. I'm not the one freaking out about a minor edge case that's existed since day one.

The point is Thanlis, that in the long run even if you go with "remove both 3rd level Encounter powers" kludge, that the new Wizard still wouldn't be losing any of his spell preparation numbers. And while the "you can't prepare two spells of the same level" restriction would keep you from double dipping at fourth level, it won't as soon as you get some extra spells under your belt. Even leaving aside the possibility of getting to seventh level and grabbing a 3rd and a 7th level spell for your book (as you are apparently allowed to do), there's the simple fact that by the time you get to the levels where you normally trade abilities in, the Wizard's spell book system would be providing them enough spells of enough levels to fill all their slots and have a multiclass power on top of that.

I am well aware of the fiddliness you have to engage in to make 4e standard Wizards function with respect to the multiclass rules for their dailies. That is why I was so surprised that they decided to go a route with the DDEs Wizard which was even worse at playing nice with those rules by a considerable margin and also applied the same type of problem to the Encounter powers as well.

The DDE Wizard explains how its powers work in a much clearer and more concise fashion. But it does so at the expense of there not being a single reading available anywhere that allows it to play nicely with the standard 4e Multiclass Feats. Which is an entirely defensible design choice - especially if backwards compatibility is a total non-concern.

The point here is that you, Thanlis, are being an asshole. You are factually wrong. And you're being a dick about it. I strongly suggest that you go back and check what claims I actually made about your precious fucking 4th edition, an stop going full retard 4venger on me. I made extremely modest factual claims which are backed 100% by the released documents. So you going on about how I'm thick an can't read charts just makes you look like an asshole. In no small part, because you're an asshole.

-Frank

Did anybody answer my question?

Is it going to sell?

 Will it help generate RPG sales?


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;394622Did anybody answer my question?

Is it going to sell?

 Will it help generate RPG sales?


- Ed C.

"Answer not clear.  Try again later."

Quote from: FrankTrollman;394621I am well aware of the fiddliness you have to engage in to make 4e standard Wizards function with respect to the multiclass rules for their dailies.

No, I don't think you were. If you were, you wouldn't have claimed that anything changed. You made a huge stinking deal about an edge case that has existed for two years. Now you're backing and filling and tossing up a lot of chaff like fiddly.

One sentence. "When a wizard takes a power swap feat, he only gets one power from the other class and it doesn't go in the spellbook." That's not fiddly, that's trivial. If you have problems with that you are not qualified to use dice with more than six sides, and you might want to be careful with those.

Quote from: Peregrin;394623"Answer not clear.  Try again later."

Right.

Nobody knows.

 Rassle-fassle, fraQNabbing, ting-tang Flik-Flakking, jackwagon stupid WoTc product thats talked about too much that might just wind up sitting on the shelf.

"Doubtful"

Quote from: Koltar;394622Did anybody answer my question?

Is it going to sell?

Will it help generate RPG sales?

What Peregrin said. If Encounters has been working well for your store, I'd guess there's a decent chance that Essentials will too. Season 3 of Encounters is going to push Essentials the way Season 2 pushed Dark Sun. On the other hand, WotC is a mile or two from perfect and I'd be nuts to assume the product will hit the sweet spot they're aiming for.

I had a couple of people at the local store trying 4e with Encounters and looking for a starter set, but that's the usual semi-useless anecdotal evidence. Doesn't tell you anything about your store.

If you can compare Dark Sun sales with Eberron sales from last year, that might tell you something. If Encounters play makes a difference, you'd expect Dark Sun sales to be higher. I'd be curious to hear the general ratio if you're able to share it.

Quote from: Koltar;394622Did anybody answer my question?

Is it going to sell?

 Will it help generate RPG sales?


- Ed C.

That is a much more interesting question, and one which I don't think anyone has 100% clear crystal balls for. It's a new stand alone game that says "Dungeons & Dragons" on it. With the right kind of marketing and some favorable reviews from the right people, it could of course do very well. Unfortunately, I think the whole "not a new edition!" meme that Bill Slavicsek is throwing around is seriously not helping. Consider the following from good old Bill about D&D Essentials:

Quote from: Bill SlavicsekThis isn't all that different from us releasing Player's Handbook 2 or Player's Handbook 3.

Ooooh... bad market speak. Someone in the marketing department should electrocute his genitals for that one. You run a game store, right? Think about how the 4e PHB1 sold, now compare to the PHB2, and then to the PHB3. Given the sales of those three products in your own experience, how many copies would you order of the PHB4? If Slavicsek gets his memes about this not being new hard enough, you can go ahead and treat the DDE box set like the PHB4 and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdom like the Player's Strategy Guide 2.

However, despite what various 4rries are insisting to the point of rudeness, D&D Essentials is more than that. It's a major overhaul of how the game is played, what things are available in the game, and even who the game would appeal to. Backwards compatibility is a distant afterthought when they are writing this stuff, so it could easily catch fire and do better than 4e ever did.

That being said, I don't have a lot of hopes for the stuff coming out immediately after the Essentials box set for maintaining peoples' interest. The advanced player rules are getting carved up into two expansion books. There will only be 8 supported races until the end of the year and four of them are elves. A lot of the 4e backlash was about how you couldn't do that much stuff. And while D&D Essentials promises to deliver classes that actually play and advance differently one from another, it is still keeping a fairly short list of options for the foreseeable future - and I really am not optimistic about how that is going to play with the dubious purchasing public.

-Frank