Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.

Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).

Quote from: Pelorus on December 05, 2021, 06:16:24 PM

Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.

They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.

Wind back the clock 30 years and White Wolf were doing this by referring to ST/PCs in the rule book as women. At least 50% at the time. And certain people whined.

The sort of person I'd be glad to be rid of is the sort of person who takes a little token change like this and turns it into a "sky is falling" scenario.

(People are awfully keen on socialism when their house burns down or their house gets broken into. Awfully keen on Leftist ideas when they want to drive on the freeway or have working streetlights. Fabulously keen on the Left when they have a standing army and don't have to raise their own army to protect their shit. But goodness, change a pronoun and they lose their shit.)

That reminds me about the story of the Barbarians attacking Constantinople and the citizens arguing amongst themselves what pronouns to call them.

I mean just because you are going to be killed and your wife and children raped and sold into slavery does not mean that you have to be rude, does it?

Quote from: Pelorus on December 05, 2021, 06:16:24 PM

Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.

They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.

Wind back the clock 30 years and White Wolf were doing this by referring to ST/PCs in the rule book as women. At least 50% at the time. And certain people whined.

The sort of person I'd be glad to be rid of is the sort of person who takes a little token change like this and turns it into a "sky is falling" scenario.

(People are awfully keen on socialism when their house burns down or their house gets broken into. Awfully keen on Leftist ideas when they want to drive on the freeway or have working streetlights. Fabulously keen on the Left when they have a standing army and don't have to raise their own army to protect their shit. But goodness, change a pronoun and they lose their shit.)

Bolding mine

Go learn history you ignorant twat.

The Romans had Firefighters, police, roads, street lights and an army, the last one they used to invade and conquer not only Europe but also parts of Africa and the Middle East.

And I'm sure we could find evidence of firefighters, police even before 27A.C.

But you could make an argument about street lights being a more recent invention: "In 1588 the Parisian Parliament decreed that a torch be installed and lit at each intersection, and in 1594 the police changed this to lanterns."

"The history of socialism has its origins in the 1789 French Revolution and the changes which it brought, although it has precedents in earlier movements and ideas. The Communist Manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in 1847-48 just before the Revolutions of 1848 swept Europe, expressing what they termed scientific socialism"

Can you point to a single socialist regime before the murderous regime of the French Revolution? And support your claim with facts?

No wonder you're a commie, you are utterly ignorant. Welcome to the ignore list.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.

Really old school gamers had the Dungeon Master roll their characters up:

Quote from: Men and MagicPrior to the character selection by players it is necessary for the referee to roll
three six-sided dice in order to rate each as to various abilities, and thus aid them
in selecting a role.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM
Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).

Most in our group has been playing since the 70's and we also enjoy point buy systems. 
However none of us are really "min-maxers", I think our group is more into playing character concepts (not FTW).   

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.

Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).

Seriously. WEG Star Wars, The Fantasy Trip, etc. There are plenty of "point buy" systems that allow you to make a character in minutes, or at least faster than a classic "random roll" system like, say, Traveller.

Quote from: Pelorus on December 05, 2021, 06:16:24 PM

Quote from: Ka'arl Sorcerer of Cha'alt on November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM
I just watched the video "Maw of the Mike" where they talk about DCCRPG becoming more inclusive by changing all pronouns to they in not just all future products but going back through the entire back catalog as well to make changes to be more inclusive.

They want to be less inclusive in their games and only be for leftists that's fine by me, my friends and I can move on to a different game.

Wind back the clock 30 years and White Wolf were doing this by referring to ST/PCs in the rule book as women. At least 50% at the time. And certain people whined.

The sort of person I'd be glad to be rid of is the sort of person who takes a little token change like this and turns it into a "sky is falling" scenario.

(People are awfully keen on socialism when their house burns down or their house gets broken into. Awfully keen on Leftist ideas when they want to drive on the freeway or have working streetlights. Fabulously keen on the Left when they have a standing army and don't have to raise their own army to protect their shit. But goodness, change a pronoun and they lose their shit.)

Your conflation of issues doesn't lend any credibility to your assertions.  Moreover, none of the things you list are inherently socialist.  Try harder.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on December 05, 2021, 08:27:03 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.

Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).

Seriously. WEG Star Wars, The Fantasy Trip, etc. There are plenty of "point buy" systems that allow you to make a character in minutes, or at least faster than a classic "random roll" system like, say, Traveller.

Point buy in 5e doesn't take any longer than rolling the dice, and arranging the standard array might even be faster.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 05, 2021, 10:18:09 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on December 05, 2021, 08:27:03 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.

Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).

Seriously. WEG Star Wars, The Fantasy Trip, etc. There are plenty of "point buy" systems that allow you to make a character in minutes, or at least faster than a classic "random roll" system like, say, Traveller.

Point buy in 5e doesn't take any longer than rolling the dice, and arranging the standard array might even be faster.

Who was the one that said Old School gamers will spend 4 hours re rolling their stats to get more than one with 18? This is stupid on so many levels.

Traveller, seriously, Traveller, fucking Traveller... The game where Chargen is it's own mini game is being used as an example of rolling your character.

This is as stupid as using Champions to generalize all point buy systems.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 05, 2021, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 05, 2021, 01:51:57 PMI've NEVER met an old-school gamer who prefers to spend 4 hours doing meticulous minmaxing with a point-buy system rather than 2 minutes rolling six stats and some random tables. Not a fucking one.

Yet old-school gamers will gladly spend 4 hours re-rolling their character until they get more than one 18.

Seriously though, no point-buy system short of Champions takes 4 hours. Point-buy is a perfectly ok for old-school games, and I'm a guy that has his players randomly roll their starting race and class (which, IMO, are the same thing).

Didn't have to. AD&D was not a 3d6 roll-in-order game. All the rolling methods were located in the DMG and I think it STARTED with rolling 3d6 six times a dozen times and pick the best one. I think the 4d6 drop lowest was one as well but there were a lot of oddball ones.

I think in the rules it talked about every PC needed two 15+ scores.

I was very surprised when I went back and reread AD&D. My mental facts were WAY off.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 05, 2021, 08:09:18 PM

Go learn history you ignorant twat.

The Romans had Firefighters, police, roads, street lights and an army, the last one they used to invade and conquer not only Europe but also parts of Africa and the Middle East.

And I'm sure we could find evidence of firefighters, police even before 27A.C.

But you could make an argument about street lights being a more recent invention: "In 1588 the Parisian Parliament decreed that a torch be installed and lit at each intersection, and in 1594 the police changed this to lanterns."

"The history of socialism has its origins in the 1789 French Revolution and the changes which it brought, although it has precedents in earlier movements and ideas. The Communist Manifesto was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in 1847-48 just before the Revolutions of 1848 swept Europe, expressing what they termed scientific socialism"

Can you point to a single socialist regime before the murderous regime of the French Revolution? And support your claim with facts?

No wonder you're a commie, you are utterly ignorant. Welcome to the ignore list.

Someone who gets confused by "Buffalo Wings" then.

Socialist ideas were around before Marx and Engels gave them the name. The paying of taxes for a standing army. Socialism. The establishment of roman roads using tribute to Caesar. Socialism.
duh.

Paying taxes is Socialism now?

Ok, Groomer.

Quote from: Pelorus on December 06, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
Someone who gets confused by "Buffalo Wings" then.

Socialist ideas were around before Marx and Engels gave them the name. The paying of taxes for a standing army. Socialism. The establishment of roman roads using tribute to Caesar. Socialism.
duh.

Look at this guy reaching back 1500+ years to call the Romans socialists...Hey look, the Romans drank wine and socialists do, too. Everyone's a socialist.

Back on topic. I really like the DCC ethos of rolling 3d6 down the line, rolling your profession, and rolling your birth augur, etc. I've had so much fun with random characters and I pretty much always chose their gender randomly, too. It's sad that they're starting to cave to the thought police. I bet it's 1 or two loud agitators and Mr. Goodperson not being principled enough to stand by the initial gender-neutral language. That or seeing $$$ in being able to sell more books so people can "fix" their libraries.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2021, 07:03:20 PM

Quote from: Pelorus on December 06, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
Socialist ideas were around before Marx and Engels gave them the name. The paying of taxes for a standing army. Socialism. The establishment of roman roads using tribute to Caesar. Socialism.
duh.

Look at this guy reaching back 1500+ years to call the Romans socialists...Hey look, the Romans drank wine and socialists do, too. Everyone's a socialist.

Not my field, but it seems within reach to call the Cura Annonae socialism. That's the government-supplied free grain / bread that was provided for the poor people of Rome. It is the origin of the saying "bread and circuses" as a dole to satisfy the common people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae

At least, the government giving free bread to poor people seems pretty on-target for what is called socialism today.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 03, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
I want to see one of these woke companies create a table to generate your characters (or NPC) gender randomly. That would be super-entertaining.

Heresy!

Now I get why attributes, being innate qualities, would be rolled randomly. Honestly, I never really understood why race and sex weren't also treated similarly in RPGs.

But by golly a WOKE company knows darn well that gender IS ALWAYS A CHOICE!

(That said, they'll also be the first to admit that "random" is one of the available genders).

Quote from: jhkim on December 06, 2021, 07:13:23 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 06, 2021, 07:03:20 PM

Quote from: Pelorus on December 06, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
Socialist ideas were around before Marx and Engels gave them the name. The paying of taxes for a standing army. Socialism. The establishment of roman roads using tribute to Caesar. Socialism.
duh.

Look at this guy reaching back 1500+ years to call the Romans socialists...Hey look, the Romans drank wine and socialists do, too. Everyone's a socialist.

Not my field, but it seems within reach to call the Cura Annonae socialism. That's the government-supplied free grain / bread that was provided for the poor people of Rome. It is the origin of the saying "bread and circuses" as a dole to satisfy the common people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae

At least, the government giving free bread to poor people seems pretty on-target for what is called socialism today.

Dude, you're wrong but let's keep this on topic.

Fuck DCC, fuck all the "respect my pronouns bullies and those who serve as human shields to them.

We want to play elf games, to have fun, to enjoy some escapism. If you want to inject your ideology then my wallet is closed.